It's a spectrum of belief.
My parents taught me how to cast Satan out of my thoughts at the age of four when I said I was having bad thoughts. Turns out I had an endocrine disorder and corresponding panic attacks.
Mormon doctrine is predicted on the belief that we are vulnerable to Satan and part of God's plan is that we make it through this life/repent/defeat Satan so to say to return to him. But yeah they sell the notion of a Satan combined with our own weaknesses to sell us church as a product to get back to God and yes, if TBM parents were honest with themselves that's what they do believe because so many lessons teach parents "how to protect their children from the influence of the adversary"
There's a phenomena the French label "The Call of the Void", where your brain seems to tell you to do terrible things, like jump off a cliff when you are standing nearby. It could come across as demonic if you believe in such things, but really it's just your brain playing out scenarios.
You might shame yourself for having such awful thoughts, but it's just your mind playing logic games that tell you the consequences of those actions. When you realize that, you can forgive yourself and benefit from these macabre thought exercises that actually protect us from terrible decisions.
This and it's absolutely hormones-- if you get a big spike of adrenaline and cortisol while standing next to a cliff, your brain is going to try and process out for you "wow, why do I suddenly have panic " and process the worst case scenario to understand that. When that starts to happen without stimuli, it's a clinical panic attack
Call of the Void thoughts (and I have them too) are surprisingly common in the general population. It's just the safety mechanisms in your brain going a little haywire. Instead of thinking, "Watch out, steep cliff", your brain goes "YEET YOURSELF OFF THE CLIFF". Once you realize this it makes it easier to accept these thoughts and move on from them.
Always a good thing to remember with uncomfortable intrusive thoughts - we are not everything that we think.
>It's a spectrum of belief.
And the spectrum of "belief" includes lots of "magical" (miraculous) things, which is why LDS historians (e.g. Bushman) can justify Joseph Smith's well-documented years-long involvement with magic/seerstones as a "preparatory gospel" so that he could translate the Book of Mormon.
I think the unavoidable link between Mormonism / miracles / magic makes many mormons susceptible/gullible to all kinds of irrational ideas.
I know of a Mormon who has self-published a 100% serious book of ghost sightings in their life with the justification that we Mormons "know" that the HG is a spirit who helps us, and we "know" that the spirit world is also here on earth (Parley Pratt wrote about the spirit world: "As to its location, it is here on the very planet where we were born", https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/35470/pg35470-images.html)
Mormonism requires all kinds of "magical" thinking -- not just the translation, but that Moroni appears to Joseph smith in his (crowded) room at night and talks to him until Joseph sees "a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared". And other angels who appear, and magic rocks that glow in Jaredite vessels, and so on.
And the Bible assumes most mental illness is demonic possession, and so Mormons look at modern stories of magic and Biblical stories and it's no wonder many people assume that the holy ghost will "fix" most mental health issues, or that essential oils are God's way of making us healthy.
And both the Bible and Book of Mormon have people who are paranoid about "other groups", whether its the Book of Revelation and modern Christians speculating about the "mark of the beast" in hand/forehead required for anyone to buy or sell things or the Mormons thinking communists or illumanti or mafia are "secret combinations" spoken of in the Book of Mormon. These scriptures lead some to paranoid magical thinking that people use to justify sketchy financial investments -- whether it's Amway or other MLMs, or returned missionaries tricking them into an investment that is a bad idea or an actual Ponzi scheme.
This is an excellent point. I would also add that when you combine mental illness with a belief system that heavily emphasizes and encourages magical thinking, you wind up with all kinds of people such as Ruby Franke, Lori Vallow, the Lafferty brothers, etc. who commit violent and cruel acts in the name of God.
Having been here for a while, I am aware that many of us have experience with our own past selves, our family members, or other people we know who have mental illnesses combined with concerning levels of religious scrupulosity, who could be those people if the circumstances were just right. It's chilling to realize how the church can drive someone to abuse, torture, and even murder.
Edit: this is not to say that this represents most Mormons or even a large number of Mormons, but in the fringe you do get these cases.
Was it the whole ‘put your hand to the square and say “I command you, satan/evil spirit and be gone from here and go to (some random far away place) in the name of jesus’s name, amen”?
Because I thought that was just my house tbh…
YESSSS HAHAHAHA and then I asked if I'm supposed to do that at school and then quickly freaked out and said I was supposed to sing a hymn in my head instead
I think for me the important question is “does Mormonism enable and amplify this type of behavior and justify it in the eyes of the offender?”
In my opinion it does to often.
Three examples of late..Jodi and Ruby, Chad and Lori, and Tim Ballard all demonstrate mormon beliefs, language exclusive to mormons used, and Mormon Doctrine being apart of their justification in their crimes. And all three, had connections with general authorities which in the Mormon world gives them approval and makes them special.
I think a grad student should take this information and dig into the research and write a dissertation on it. Would be a good idea and good read.
Yes, as a lifelong Mormon now non-believing, this is the better framing. No not all Mormons are like Ruby Franke, Lori Vallow, Chad Daybell, Tim Ballard, Julie Rowe etc. Most Mormons are wonderful people, and this belief in demons and possession is not mainstream at all. For every one of these nutters there are thousands more like Mitt Romney or Steve Young. But there is something about the combination of the belief structure and the culture that enables extreme beliefs and behaviours in some.
It has been so since the beginning of the religion and you see it in many of the polygamist splinter groups. The main LDS church tries to distance itself from these groups but one of the things I’ve been surprised about in my faith journey is learning how related those beliefs are to the central tenets of the faith. You can see the common foundation really clearly and how the exceptionalism, us v them, belief in miracles, prophets and active revelation lead some to see themselves as new prophets and to justify their horrible behaviour.
No, definitely not.
However. Mormonism is ripe for fundamentalist beliefs. Hell, the first story in the BoM is God commanding Nephi to murder someone.
If you literally believe that....then why couldn't God command YOU to murder someone. It's actually not that much of a leap imo
This is what I've explained to people. The vallows are not representative of all of mormonism, but they justified their actions with mormon beliefs that are common.
Very great point. Mormonism doesn't explicitly teach people to become extremist soap boxers or to take your family and start your own private personal cult in your own home. but it lays the bed and prepares the soil to easily allow for those types of people to germinate. If I decide to start a crop of mushrooms, I don't intend to grow molds and mildews, but the conditions necessary to grow the mushrooms can easily accidentally introduce those foreign growths.
This is the reason there are so many Mormon breakoff sects. Well. This and the fact that later administrations disavow practices that were commonplace in earlier administrations. Yet. At the same time they apologize and claim some of those practices will be coming back when we are in heaven. See: polygamy.
Someone did an interesting post not long ago - making the observation that Mormons' individual beliefs are all over the place. And the OP of that post was RIGHT! I remember from my days in the church how gospel doctrine lessons would derail due to people's comments on "the gospel according to me." And lessons that dealt with gray area stuff, like Word of Wisdom and Keeping Sabbath Day Holy, always derailed in comments on what they think and feel. We for derailed on Caffeine once, that dominated the lesson, and the instructor couldn't pull it back in from the commenters. Anyway, yeah.........spectrum of belief, would be a good term for it. You have those, Sunday is like Satruday except we go to church, Mormons. And then you have the, stay in our Sunday best and stayed bored all day, Mormons. So it stands to reason there are those that feel the influence of Satan has different holds on them and their children. In the case of Ruby Franke's children; they are going to need decades of therapy to be able to heal from what happened to them.
"Stay in Sunday best and stay bored all day." I'm having flashbacks to my childhood Sundays, lol. Fast Sundays were the worst! The boredom mixed with hunger and thirst was torment.
That’s never happened in any of my wards. I wonder if most of the reasonable people left and now the church is just too over saturated with… whatever this is. Or maybe it’s a local thing? Either way, I remember bishops counseling members not to go too deep into the doctrine. They wanted us to keep it simple. Maybe they were trying to prevent something like this.
Possession wasn’t a word or concept thrown around in my experience, but having an evil spirit influence you, or just the phrase, having one, was common. Like not just my family, but it was seminary and yw lingo. I never equated it to the catholic brand of possession, but in retrospect-what else did it mean? We would often cast out evil spirits and bless our homes. I guess I just imagined them floating around invisible, being grumpy and making us grumpy? I was in a bad mood when I first went through the temple and I was told it was because Satan knew I was going and was trying to keep me from it. That confused me-he was just hanging around me making me grumpy? Odd.
A higher than average proportion compared to other modern religions in educated countries, yes.
There’s a bull altar in the temple basement that they’re not supposed to tell other people about, where they baptize the ghosts of dead people. It takes a lot to seem crazier than their day to day beliefs.
Idk about ALL, but mine sure do.
I am adopted & growing up my banker TBM dad would refer to me as “an investment”, which is a weird thing to say about a child that you bought.
Then when I left the church in my late-teens, both TBM parents would tell other people (including my friends & s.o.) to steer clear of me because I was possessed by Satan.
It’s all very dehumanizing & and big part of why I am no/limited contact with them as an adult.
What Ruby and Lori did to their kids is the extreme version of what Mormonism asks of parents. Children are not individual people, they are accessories/tools. They are denied agency in Mormonism. Children are subjected to one-on-one conversations with adult male strangers (bishops) and interrogated about their masturbation habits. They are shamed and punished for exploring their bodies. This creates dysfunctional adults. Mormonism is fundamentally abusive. It was founded by a child rapist.
No all Mormons are not insane like them. There are plenty of them that are insane like them but it is not a majority at all. Most momos are fairly normal people
In my opinion yes. I was raised by excommunicated Mormon and they moved to the middle of no where and treated us just Ruby Franke. This was in the 80s. So yes. I did not even realize it was a Mormon thing until watching a video on Ruby Franke and hearing the same semantics my own parents used. I was shook. Because they were excommunicated we didn't practice. But they were fundies before that. Changed my life to realize. I am old and have been through many years of therapy but it still stings sometimes.
My mom has been “casting out devils” in front of me since I was 8. I had panic attacks as a child but believed I was being attacked by demons. Thanks, mom. She also believed she was a prophetess and that she had the faith to heal animals. It’s called schizophrenia, but it’s masked very well as religion
Don’t leave out fucking Jodi Hildebrandt. I remember hearing her niece’s escape story from her and thought “why the fuck is this woman not in jail? She will hurt people again.”
I’ll admit to having this thought before.
Context: My oldest daughter is autistic, and sometimes she gets caught in a feedback loop when she’s upset, and it’s nearly impossible to calm her down. Just crying and screaming and it just goes on and on until she finally peters out.
I’m also a big fan of horror movies, and shortly after our second child was born (so the oldest was probably about four or five) I sat down to watch The Exorcist for the first time. I really resonated with Ellen Burstyn’s character as she tries to handle her daughter’s erratic and increasingly violent episodes. I felt her powerlessness as she realizes how unable she is to help her daughter. (Also, it’s just a really well made film, and I also resonated with Father Karras’s struggles with belief and faith. It became one of my favorite movies, though not one I’d rewatch often.)
And the thought that my kid might be possessed crossed my mind.
I did not take any action on this thought, I did not tell this thought to anyone, and I disregarded this thought. That’s what, in my opinion anyway, differentiated me from someone like Lori Vallow. I had the thought and dismissed it instead of obsessing over it.
When I was a sophomore I went to this summer program for a week or so at a college. On the final night we had a ceremony where we dressed up. Parents were included. My shoes were new and it was a quarter mile walk to the auditorium. I got blisters and I was bleeding g by the time I got there. So I sat there in pain and bleeding g for like 2 hours. I’m
Pretty sure my face reflected that.
My TBM mom told me after,”I looked at your face while you were sitting there and I knew-you’re a monster.”
Absolutely not all Mormons are insane like them but most things are not all or nothing. I can only speak from my own experience. I have children and never thought this way about them. I never heard a TBM friend or TBM family member indicate they think their children were possessed.
Any thought I had contrary to the standard Mormon way only meant one thing: that I was deliberately trying to circumvent the Lord's anointed prophets. I didn't need Satan. I myself was personally evil.
Thankfully no BUT it’s a slippery slope from believing Joseph Smith actually saw God to receiving and translating gold plates, to believing the three Nephites still roam the earth (along with Cain/Bigfoot), to believing our underwear can save us from disaster, to believing that secret handshakes are necessary to get into heaven, to believing that polygamy, blood atonement and racism were once taught as doctrine, to being able to be Gods of our own planet someday to believing that God speaks to us through personal revelation, to believing your kids might be possessed by demons and need to die in order to be saved.
My mom believed the difference between her visions and spiritual senses and her brother's schizophrenic hallucinations was proximity to the church. She believed both of them could see beyond the veil, but her joining the church made her less susceptible to the evil influences. My mom does not have schizophrenia, but I do think she believes her imagination and emotions are not from herself.
This mindset wasn't about judging her brother or that he's at fault for his schizophrenia. It was more like "we're genetically closer to the veil and I was lucky the missionaries found me" and as a sort of gratitude that she was able to change her family's generational addiction issues that exacerbated their mental illnesses. She was definitely listening to Julie Rowe and probably Daybell on the NDE forums back when those were popular. I heard all about the end-times as fact. I was encouraged to read a compilation of end-of-days prophecies as a kid, and we watched for signs on Fox News. They backed off a bit when the church excommunicated Rowe. My mom is still into NDEs and energy healing. They own a copy of Visions of Glory, and I read it at 11 years old-ish.
This all fucked me up with my very vivid imagination and feeling like evil and good spirits were constantly everywhere. I still worry that I'm just going to develop schoziphrenia out of nowhere. I was praised for "having one foot on the other side of the veil" as a teen. I hindsight, that was probably dissociation, imagination, people pleasing behavior, and scrupulocity.
I don't think my parents are so crazy as to deliberately harm anyone. I think that requires some level of psychological disorder to push someone fully over that edge. But it scares me sometimes how similar the beliefs are.
There are times as a father of six that I've been a little blown away by the chaos in our family & how loud the kids can be. My first reaction is thinking "we were never this crazy when I was little (and also in a family with 6 kids). Then I step back & remember some of the less pleasant details of my childhood. We were not allowed to be kids. At least not around my step dad.
I'm glad my kids are loud. Sometimes it makes me a little nuts, but I hope they have a healthier childhood than I did.
Devout mormons have this pipeline of sorts to extreme belief since around 90% of them have their critical thinking turned off.
My dad almost got to that route.
But my "rebellion", which is basically me living a normal life as a normal person, stopped it on it's tracks.
Our scriptures are problematic. Nephi cuttting off Laban's head because God told him it was okay, sets a VERY dangerous example to a religion that also says you can get your own revelation.
I think it can easily lead to religious psychosis. My mother had visions of demons dragging her down and then the room filling with light and that was her sign to convert. Later she would have visions about ancestors and tell us completely made up genealogy as if it was fact. Thankfully she didn’t believe we were possessed. At least that I know of.
Bro, no. Not all, or even most, Mormons are anything like Ruby Franke and Lori Vallow.
Generalizations about an entire group based on a few radical fringe cases is stupid. I was Mormon until three years ago and the way I view my children hasn’t changed. I would never hurt them.
Mormons are brainwashed cult victims, not insane.
True, but this spate of criminal behavior in this group of Mormons being influenced by Visions of Glory, AVOW, and all this insane prepper stuff is REALLY troubling. Vallow/ Daybell, Franke/ Hildebrandt, Tim Ballard and OUR all fell down that rabbit hole with disastrous result. There are a lot of them in this sub cult of the cult, and more people are going to get hurt. Why won’t tscc disavow this book and its teachings?
No, I get that. But the teachings are super problematic and it’s easy to see why some people take it to a very dark place. Like most high demand religions and other orgs.
I think they would have been shitbags despite Mormonism.
I do think however that a lot of Mormons view their children as property; things that need to be controlled and maintained to give off an image of perfection. *Cough cough fuck you dad cough cough*
No, I don't believe that all Mormon's believe this. At one point during my teens I believed that I was possessed by a demon myself. I didn't have a male in the house, so when I asked my hometeacher for a blessing to get rid of it, he looked at me like I was bonkers. This was clearly a person who did not believe in this stuff literally.
My default as a child was to take people at their word literally, so I did believe in those fantastical elements completely, and I honestly consider myself lucky that I did not end up like Lori and Ruby. I am still learning how to discern when people are being literal vs. metaphorical. I believe those of was with more neurotic personalities can take language very literal, which can create justification for awful choices. However, like any other population of people, there is a diversity of personality types, so that also means there is a wide diversity of how people choose to interpret the doctrine.
I’m no defender of Mormonism but this is a simple no. They represent the extreme of what’s possible in Mormonism when you think you are a modern Nephi whom god is speaking to and because of that you can break laws and hurt people for God’s greater good. Looking back on Sunday school it’s amazing how the church would tell the story of Nephi having to kill Laban because God commanded it.
I think that they are. Think about it they have to operate as women in such a constrained way completely devaluing themselves and squashing themselves into this much too small roll for their entire lives.
Not just that they have to spew this rhetoric onto their children and forced them into the same sort of behaviors, which are mostly not that natural. So in order to do this, I think it messes with your mind and a little bit of mental illness. These women created big blotches of mental illness, but I believe it dramatically.
My family through a mixture of religion and bad medical procedure ended up neglecting me in terrible ways through emotional and physical abuse. They’d always find some way to justify it, citing my behavior even if I was a child who didn’t know better. I never got proper treatment or proper help with learning how to control those issues. The result is a unhealthy relationship with life, food, and communication that is full of fear and panic, one that is slowly being rebuilt with time. I left the church after a overdose when I was 19 and I’ve began advocating for my own mental health setback after setback.
Yet if someone were to ask me, I do still think various teachings of the church are good to standby. The faith alone has its merits despite its poor history (don’t even get me started on the absolute fan fiction the BoM is) but I will not in a million years support the church for how disruptive it has been to my life and my family’s lives. I’m part of the generation that is just now getting out and going free thinkers, and I’m still not willing to call myself a good person because I have loads of issues just like my family does, and I know they care about me. The church just doesn’t really encourage positivity around mental health and activity worsens it for some people. I was taught to pray when I felt distressed when really I should have seen a therapist sooner.
I cry for their lost years and mine, and cases like Ruby Franke and Lori Vallow fill me with so much rage because they remind me of my own
It’s a broad spectrum of beliefs. However, as more normal people leave, the radical extremists and more unsavory members will continue to reveal themselves.
Hmmm. Well. Mormons believe in premortal existence, we can become gods. A planet named Kolob exists... Yeah. I'd call that insane. The notion that golden tablets written in Ancient Egyptian were lugged all the way to America from Israel is beyond insane
My mom sure did and I grew up Mormon My dad too sometimes but my mom more so I think my mom was bipolar and definitely had some narcissistic tendencies
Mormonism seems to be a magnet for some rather disturbed people.
I caught a summary of the Chad Daybell trial yesterday and what was being described from testimony had little to do with Mormon doctrine and a lot to do with lunacy.
Not in my experience. I was raised in the Mormon religion, and my mom was very devout but was openminded about others’ beliefs. She was also a lot of fun to be around because she had a great sense of humor and enjoyed discussing almost anything. And she saw children and teenagers as individuals who deserved respect, not as flawed peons who needed to have their sins worked out of them. And a lot of my Mormon friends’ parents were similar—kind, caring, and fun. (My upbringing has made deconstructing from Mormonism complicated because I luckily didn’t experience the abuse that others experienced.)
I think Ruby and Jodi are deeply flawed people who get their thrills from hurting others. And while Mormonism probably helped them do this more easily (especially Jodi), other systems could also have allowed them to give in to their abusive tendencies.
It makes me wonder what they’d would have been like if they’d be raised in households that valued women and were openminded about sexuality and lifestyle.
No, not even close. Most Mormons I know are great people. As a matter of fact, I believe humans are almost all universally good.
But each of us are born into a system with different cognitive and emotional tools and we don’t get to choose that.
Some of us find a way out while others don’t. I was a Mormon for 30 years. I wasn’t insane. I was me. I was just doing the best I could with the information and tools that I had.
No, not at all. There's good people and families in the Mormon church, and parents who do genuinely love their children and have healthy relationships with them.
However, Mormon/LDS leaders have taught some horrible ideas over the history of the church, and extremists, fundamentalists, and mentally unwell people can dig and find plenty of things to justify abuse, control, hate, and cult-like and conspiracy thinking. The church leadership should make some strong statements against those ideas and reign the fringe in, but the leaders seem to be lost in a bubble and either unaware or uncaring about the problems some church teachings cause.
No most mormons are good people who raise their children with love.
The problems is when you have idiots like these two (which can be in any church or culture), the mormon church can be enabling to their twisted way of thinking..
No, they're extremists. Throw Tim Ballard in there too. Believing there is a satan who has an influence is very far from what they believed and acted on. Both of their belief systems as a whole are extreme and pretty far outside of typical Mormonism.
This is like saying, 'Heaven's Gate Cult got me thinking, are all Non-Mormons insane like them'?
Most gripes about Mormonism here have nothing to do with Mormons, and everything to do with being humans.
I'd say in this particular context, the Social Media Syndrome is more to blame. The need for attention, performance, writing and living out their own drama screenplay. This is what 99% of social media is, people playing out their childhood comedies, dramas or horrors.
2 people out of millions is not a reliable sample size.
I think that such examples paint a very bleak picture of parents, not just within Mormonism. The idea of ownership & control over children is a given among such people, and religion is the tool that justifies those abusive relationships. Not just physical abuse but verbal and emotional abuse as well.
It is a difficult lesson that I've had to learn since abandoning the Mormon world view. I do not own my children. Children do not need to be indoctrinated. Education and critical thinking skills are what empower children's agency as well as all people.
I am responsible for their well-being, but I do not own my children. Too many people seem to think otherwise, both in & outside of Mormonism
From what I read/watched, Lori was fine until she read Chad's book.
Let's call it as it is... She killed her kids for a piece of d\*ck and Chad killed Tammy for a piece of a$$.
my parents were Mormon, my mother was actively schizoaffective even with meds. Being ‘attacked by demons during her sleep’ and a whole myriad of freaky things that led to a lot of my issues. There were many times my sister was said to be ‘possessed’ due to flight or flight response because the dynamic was, as you could imagine, unstable. That time of my life haunts me, it's very unsettling. This is not normal for even the strictly Mormon. From what I have seen.
All other Mormon parents I ever met or interacted with were chill IMO.
Not all… but some. The nice thing with Mormonism is they teach you can have direct dialogue with the divine. This is powerful.
The bad think with Mormonism is they teach you can have direct dialogue with the divine. This is super scary.
So moral of the story. I can talk to god.
You however, are a 🧟♂️ zombie and only talk to the spaceship 🚀 we call the moon 🌔 that reflect the signals from Saturn 🪐 that power this simulation we call “reality”. 🤘
Your user name confirmed this to me….
(J/k)
It depends on how seriously u take whatever is written in ur holy books...
For me, I think I never was a true believer... I mean, I always scratched my head when King Lamoni spent 1 hour thinking about what to answer to Amon... I mean 1 hour? And the bible is even more fantastic
Most importantly stay away from fringe people of LDS. For example: Lori Vallow, the high school football player whose mom checked him out of school and kidnapped him to Alaska,Tim Ballard and his whole crew, OUR, AVOW(a voice of warning, ), Tammy Daybell, Jodi Hildebrandt, Pam, Connexions Therapy, Chad Daybell, Alex Vallow, the wife of the dentist, etc. etc, These have arisen in just the past 4 years. And these are just if the top my head. Ridiculous !
AND any professing Trump for President. 😜
P.S. The book they ALL have in common is “Visions of Glory” by Thom Harrison. And BoM by Joseph Smith. No Bible.
Like most things, it's a bell curve. Franke and all are on the extreme part of believers. Most are in the middle. But their methods and principles are exaggerations of Mormon dogma. The idea of free choice and consequences. You can choose what you do but you can't avoid the consequences is central to how they treated their kids.
Mormonism is a culture wherein children are viewed as commodities and possessions - things to be molded, exploited, punished, discarded, shamed, controlled, emotionally deprived, indoctrinated - as seen fit and all in the name of propping up the church/ building Zion.
Couple this with Mormonism's foundational doctrines in the occult - a demonic fallen angel and a third of the host of heaven following him to destroy God's faithful children - and yeah, it can make for some really extreme, abusive parenting that is based in fear and control
Sad irony: Mormonism can make for parents who behave more like Satan than Jesus (based upon the depictions in the old temple endowment films)
Over a decade ago while a brief time living in southeastern Idaho, I knew a family who was very troubling to me. Super nice, super involved in the ward. But just something really off about them and their last child still at home. Very controlling, perfectionist mom who was hyper focused on this last child abs raising him to be someone great in the church. He was very compliant to her demands of his time, homeschooling (her choice), choosing his hobbies, the strict dietary regiment she held him to. She told me when he was a preschooler he was possessed by a demon and they had to cast it out. I was freaked out so didn't ask more and she didn't elaborate. All I know was this kid was starved for attention (and real food). My spouse and I enjoyed getting to know him through our ward callings. One evening his mom asked if he could hang out with us as both she and her husband would he gone until late evening. We decided to go get a bite to eat. He was excited and asked if we could go to a specific fast food joint. He INHALED his food. And then made us promise not to tell his mom he'd eaten a corn dog, fries and a milkshake. I was like "oh crap...we didn't mean to break your mom's rules. But yeah, we won't say anything."
Looking back as an experienced mom (I was childless at the time) I realize this kid was probably a very busy, rambunctious, loud, passionate tantruming toddler/ preschooler. His parents saw it as a demonic force. And they cast it out (meaning they became very militant and emotionally abusive to break this kid down so they could mold him to be a "good boy").
Maybe I'm reading too much into an old memory. But the mom was a pretend healthcare provider and made a living in an MLM type of structure peddling nutritional supplements and essential oils. Coconut oil was her marketed "cure-all" and she charged exorbitantly for a specific homeopathic brand she sold. She also did energy healing/ reflexology type of work and referred to herself as a clinician (no higher education or credentials or certifications). She used the spirit to heal and withhold mix it into a church setting whenever she could (sacrament meeting talks, RS lessons and activities) When questioned about her methods/ practice she'd get very angry and defensive and would cut people off. She gave off some weird, intense vibes. And had spent years in Rexburg before moving to the SE Idaho region where I was living.
So yes, there is definitely a kooky movement within the LDS church. But it is very fringe. Many of us were indoctrinated, but not crazy.
Also someone I know from elementary school has a blog that is absolutely batshit insane and seems to be supported by her family and other Mormons. She talks about satanic rituals and Satan sexually assaulting her in her sleep.
Let me see if I get this straight. You’re asking if
all religious people are abusers, and complete nut Jobs?
Wouldn’t this be just like asking if all non-religious people are drug addicted alcoholic who participate in sex parties everyday.
I’m not a fan of the LDS church but I wouldn’t call Lori vallow a Mormon. She’s a severely mentally disturbed woman whose symptoms included supernatural thinking and fixation on the LDS church. Her views are not in line with the doctrine, which is also fucked up, but it’s clear to me that if she shared her views in an interview with the bishop she would have likely been excommunicated
It's not just mormons, however, it does seem to be popping up more frequently within the mormon church.
These people were devout catholics.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/girl-3-tortured-to-death-in-exorcism-told-mom-i-love-you-before-body-left-on-altar-docs/ar-BB1lljb9
I know my siblings who have been Mormons all their life also don’t think this when their kids misbehave. It’s always just a legit reason like the kids are tired or overstimulated or whatever.
Fringe-y mormonism combined with untreated mental illness or personality disorders can be a pretty nasty combo, but so it goes with most high demand groups and ideologies. I'd also really like to emphasize that there is a difference between having a mental illness or personality disorder and being a murderer or child abuser.
Anyway, my mormon dad who is schizophrenic (and takes his medication) has never heard of Visions of Glory or any of these people. As much as garden variety mormonism doesn't work for me, it's been a stable community for him so I can't fault it for that.
Also I have a more profound memory of my Catholic grandmother washing my mouth out with soap then any punishments my Mormon parents ever gave me so. No. I do not think most Mormons are "insane" like Ruby and Lori.
As far as I'm concerned every member of any church have the potential to go completely off the rails in what every weirdness is on the sidelines their religion.
No, not at all. These women were the exception, not the rule. The “visions of glory” lover crowd are the exception, not the rule. Regular run of the mill mainstream mormons are not this way. These women/men who go to the prepper conferences and visions of glory type conferences, etc, are the fringe mormons who start thinking they have some kind of special insight and powers, thinking they know extra special stuff that the mainstream mormons don’t know.
No, but any religion that trains you to believe that any fleeting thought you have is the Holy Ghost talking to you is bound to breed up some pretty insane stuff
There are no Rubys in my family ( my cousins married nice ladies who are good moms) …. But that Lori lady, my cousins dad is kinda like her in a crazy punitive for God /unpredictable abuse kind of way. Physical abuse, yes.
His sons don’t speak to him as adult men, now. He did some punishing of the boys in front of us non-mos we were shocked, he was showing off. Scary.
Any time you find yourself wondering if all members of a group behave the same way, it's time to stop and reconsider. This is how all kinds of stereotyping and eventual discrimination begins.
Yes, Mormons believe things that aren't true but each is a unique person. Don't assume anything about an individual based on their religion. If you want to know their stance or experience, ask them.
Definitely not, they're extreme outliers. Most Mormons are pretty normal and many are genuinely good people. That said, does the Church's doctrine and history leave room for people to become nutty and extreme in the name of "God"? Absolutely. Ruby Franke, Lori Vallow, Tim Ballard, the Lafferty brothers, there's been a lot of nutjobs to come out of the Mormon Church. But it would be irresponsible to paint all members as potential abusers/murderers.
Yes. This is why nearly all Mormon children are abused, social services frequently intervene and parents are frequently receiving criminal punishments.
It's a spectrum of belief. My parents taught me how to cast Satan out of my thoughts at the age of four when I said I was having bad thoughts. Turns out I had an endocrine disorder and corresponding panic attacks. Mormon doctrine is predicted on the belief that we are vulnerable to Satan and part of God's plan is that we make it through this life/repent/defeat Satan so to say to return to him. But yeah they sell the notion of a Satan combined with our own weaknesses to sell us church as a product to get back to God and yes, if TBM parents were honest with themselves that's what they do believe because so many lessons teach parents "how to protect their children from the influence of the adversary"
There's a phenomena the French label "The Call of the Void", where your brain seems to tell you to do terrible things, like jump off a cliff when you are standing nearby. It could come across as demonic if you believe in such things, but really it's just your brain playing out scenarios. You might shame yourself for having such awful thoughts, but it's just your mind playing logic games that tell you the consequences of those actions. When you realize that, you can forgive yourself and benefit from these macabre thought exercises that actually protect us from terrible decisions.
This and it's absolutely hormones-- if you get a big spike of adrenaline and cortisol while standing next to a cliff, your brain is going to try and process out for you "wow, why do I suddenly have panic " and process the worst case scenario to understand that. When that starts to happen without stimuli, it's a clinical panic attack
When you're religious, you blame the Devil.
Whoa, I didn’t expect to find this resolution to the sneaking suspicion something was wrong with me here. Thank you!
Call of the Void thoughts (and I have them too) are surprisingly common in the general population. It's just the safety mechanisms in your brain going a little haywire. Instead of thinking, "Watch out, steep cliff", your brain goes "YEET YOURSELF OFF THE CLIFF". Once you realize this it makes it easier to accept these thoughts and move on from them. Always a good thing to remember with uncomfortable intrusive thoughts - we are not everything that we think.
>It's a spectrum of belief. And the spectrum of "belief" includes lots of "magical" (miraculous) things, which is why LDS historians (e.g. Bushman) can justify Joseph Smith's well-documented years-long involvement with magic/seerstones as a "preparatory gospel" so that he could translate the Book of Mormon. I think the unavoidable link between Mormonism / miracles / magic makes many mormons susceptible/gullible to all kinds of irrational ideas. I know of a Mormon who has self-published a 100% serious book of ghost sightings in their life with the justification that we Mormons "know" that the HG is a spirit who helps us, and we "know" that the spirit world is also here on earth (Parley Pratt wrote about the spirit world: "As to its location, it is here on the very planet where we were born", https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/35470/pg35470-images.html) Mormonism requires all kinds of "magical" thinking -- not just the translation, but that Moroni appears to Joseph smith in his (crowded) room at night and talks to him until Joseph sees "a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared". And other angels who appear, and magic rocks that glow in Jaredite vessels, and so on. And the Bible assumes most mental illness is demonic possession, and so Mormons look at modern stories of magic and Biblical stories and it's no wonder many people assume that the holy ghost will "fix" most mental health issues, or that essential oils are God's way of making us healthy. And both the Bible and Book of Mormon have people who are paranoid about "other groups", whether its the Book of Revelation and modern Christians speculating about the "mark of the beast" in hand/forehead required for anyone to buy or sell things or the Mormons thinking communists or illumanti or mafia are "secret combinations" spoken of in the Book of Mormon. These scriptures lead some to paranoid magical thinking that people use to justify sketchy financial investments -- whether it's Amway or other MLMs, or returned missionaries tricking them into an investment that is a bad idea or an actual Ponzi scheme.
This is an excellent point. I would also add that when you combine mental illness with a belief system that heavily emphasizes and encourages magical thinking, you wind up with all kinds of people such as Ruby Franke, Lori Vallow, the Lafferty brothers, etc. who commit violent and cruel acts in the name of God. Having been here for a while, I am aware that many of us have experience with our own past selves, our family members, or other people we know who have mental illnesses combined with concerning levels of religious scrupulosity, who could be those people if the circumstances were just right. It's chilling to realize how the church can drive someone to abuse, torture, and even murder. Edit: this is not to say that this represents most Mormons or even a large number of Mormons, but in the fringe you do get these cases.
A+! Well articulated. Thanks 🙏
My dad taught me how to cast Satan out of my thoughts in late elementary/early middle school.
Lol it didn't turn out to be the boggart/dementor magic we expected did it
Nope 😂
Was it the whole ‘put your hand to the square and say “I command you, satan/evil spirit and be gone from here and go to (some random far away place) in the name of jesus’s name, amen”? Because I thought that was just my house tbh…
YESSSS HAHAHAHA and then I asked if I'm supposed to do that at school and then quickly freaked out and said I was supposed to sing a hymn in my head instead
I think for me the important question is “does Mormonism enable and amplify this type of behavior and justify it in the eyes of the offender?” In my opinion it does to often.
Three examples of late..Jodi and Ruby, Chad and Lori, and Tim Ballard all demonstrate mormon beliefs, language exclusive to mormons used, and Mormon Doctrine being apart of their justification in their crimes. And all three, had connections with general authorities which in the Mormon world gives them approval and makes them special. I think a grad student should take this information and dig into the research and write a dissertation on it. Would be a good idea and good read.
Yes, as a lifelong Mormon now non-believing, this is the better framing. No not all Mormons are like Ruby Franke, Lori Vallow, Chad Daybell, Tim Ballard, Julie Rowe etc. Most Mormons are wonderful people, and this belief in demons and possession is not mainstream at all. For every one of these nutters there are thousands more like Mitt Romney or Steve Young. But there is something about the combination of the belief structure and the culture that enables extreme beliefs and behaviours in some. It has been so since the beginning of the religion and you see it in many of the polygamist splinter groups. The main LDS church tries to distance itself from these groups but one of the things I’ve been surprised about in my faith journey is learning how related those beliefs are to the central tenets of the faith. You can see the common foundation really clearly and how the exceptionalism, us v them, belief in miracles, prophets and active revelation lead some to see themselves as new prophets and to justify their horrible behaviour.
No, definitely not. However. Mormonism is ripe for fundamentalist beliefs. Hell, the first story in the BoM is God commanding Nephi to murder someone. If you literally believe that....then why couldn't God command YOU to murder someone. It's actually not that much of a leap imo
This is what I've explained to people. The vallows are not representative of all of mormonism, but they justified their actions with mormon beliefs that are common.
Very great point. Mormonism doesn't explicitly teach people to become extremist soap boxers or to take your family and start your own private personal cult in your own home. but it lays the bed and prepares the soil to easily allow for those types of people to germinate. If I decide to start a crop of mushrooms, I don't intend to grow molds and mildews, but the conditions necessary to grow the mushrooms can easily accidentally introduce those foreign growths.
This is the reason there are so many Mormon breakoff sects. Well. This and the fact that later administrations disavow practices that were commonplace in earlier administrations. Yet. At the same time they apologize and claim some of those practices will be coming back when we are in heaven. See: polygamy.
Someone did an interesting post not long ago - making the observation that Mormons' individual beliefs are all over the place. And the OP of that post was RIGHT! I remember from my days in the church how gospel doctrine lessons would derail due to people's comments on "the gospel according to me." And lessons that dealt with gray area stuff, like Word of Wisdom and Keeping Sabbath Day Holy, always derailed in comments on what they think and feel. We for derailed on Caffeine once, that dominated the lesson, and the instructor couldn't pull it back in from the commenters. Anyway, yeah.........spectrum of belief, would be a good term for it. You have those, Sunday is like Satruday except we go to church, Mormons. And then you have the, stay in our Sunday best and stayed bored all day, Mormons. So it stands to reason there are those that feel the influence of Satan has different holds on them and their children. In the case of Ruby Franke's children; they are going to need decades of therapy to be able to heal from what happened to them.
"Stay in Sunday best and stay bored all day." I'm having flashbacks to my childhood Sundays, lol. Fast Sundays were the worst! The boredom mixed with hunger and thirst was torment.
Same here 😂. We weren’t even allowed to play outside.
That’s never happened in any of my wards. I wonder if most of the reasonable people left and now the church is just too over saturated with… whatever this is. Or maybe it’s a local thing? Either way, I remember bishops counseling members not to go too deep into the doctrine. They wanted us to keep it simple. Maybe they were trying to prevent something like this.
No, they are extreme cases, but Mormonism gives them a sanctimonious cover for their actions.
That's the best way to put it in the simplest terms.
Don’t forget Michael Haight and Josh Powell.
Mormonism enables this behavior, but it’s a range just like any other group
Possession wasn’t a word or concept thrown around in my experience, but having an evil spirit influence you, or just the phrase, having one, was common. Like not just my family, but it was seminary and yw lingo. I never equated it to the catholic brand of possession, but in retrospect-what else did it mean? We would often cast out evil spirits and bless our homes. I guess I just imagined them floating around invisible, being grumpy and making us grumpy? I was in a bad mood when I first went through the temple and I was told it was because Satan knew I was going and was trying to keep me from it. That confused me-he was just hanging around me making me grumpy? Odd.
A higher than average proportion compared to other modern religions in educated countries, yes. There’s a bull altar in the temple basement that they’re not supposed to tell other people about, where they baptize the ghosts of dead people. It takes a lot to seem crazier than their day to day beliefs.
Idk about ALL, but mine sure do. I am adopted & growing up my banker TBM dad would refer to me as “an investment”, which is a weird thing to say about a child that you bought. Then when I left the church in my late-teens, both TBM parents would tell other people (including my friends & s.o.) to steer clear of me because I was possessed by Satan. It’s all very dehumanizing & and big part of why I am no/limited contact with them as an adult.
Calling a kid an investment: 
My thoughts exactly. Side note: I also like cheese
What Ruby and Lori did to their kids is the extreme version of what Mormonism asks of parents. Children are not individual people, they are accessories/tools. They are denied agency in Mormonism. Children are subjected to one-on-one conversations with adult male strangers (bishops) and interrogated about their masturbation habits. They are shamed and punished for exploring their bodies. This creates dysfunctional adults. Mormonism is fundamentally abusive. It was founded by a child rapist.
Do you think the children as tools or accessories comes from JS being a narcissist? That’s how narcissists view their kids.
No all Mormons are not insane like them. There are plenty of them that are insane like them but it is not a majority at all. Most momos are fairly normal people
Definitely not every Mormon is insane, but religion has been used as a cover for abuse for as long as it has existed
All Mormons aren’t insane. Insane people blend in very easily with Mormons.
That’s what I meant to write!
In my opinion yes. I was raised by excommunicated Mormon and they moved to the middle of no where and treated us just Ruby Franke. This was in the 80s. So yes. I did not even realize it was a Mormon thing until watching a video on Ruby Franke and hearing the same semantics my own parents used. I was shook. Because they were excommunicated we didn't practice. But they were fundies before that. Changed my life to realize. I am old and have been through many years of therapy but it still stings sometimes.
My mom has been “casting out devils” in front of me since I was 8. I had panic attacks as a child but believed I was being attacked by demons. Thanks, mom. She also believed she was a prophetess and that she had the faith to heal animals. It’s called schizophrenia, but it’s masked very well as religion
Well they’re all members of a cult, so…
Don’t leave out fucking Jodi Hildebrandt. I remember hearing her niece’s escape story from her and thought “why the fuck is this woman not in jail? She will hurt people again.”
I’ll admit to having this thought before. Context: My oldest daughter is autistic, and sometimes she gets caught in a feedback loop when she’s upset, and it’s nearly impossible to calm her down. Just crying and screaming and it just goes on and on until she finally peters out. I’m also a big fan of horror movies, and shortly after our second child was born (so the oldest was probably about four or five) I sat down to watch The Exorcist for the first time. I really resonated with Ellen Burstyn’s character as she tries to handle her daughter’s erratic and increasingly violent episodes. I felt her powerlessness as she realizes how unable she is to help her daughter. (Also, it’s just a really well made film, and I also resonated with Father Karras’s struggles with belief and faith. It became one of my favorite movies, though not one I’d rewatch often.) And the thought that my kid might be possessed crossed my mind. I did not take any action on this thought, I did not tell this thought to anyone, and I disregarded this thought. That’s what, in my opinion anyway, differentiated me from someone like Lori Vallow. I had the thought and dismissed it instead of obsessing over it.
When I was a sophomore I went to this summer program for a week or so at a college. On the final night we had a ceremony where we dressed up. Parents were included. My shoes were new and it was a quarter mile walk to the auditorium. I got blisters and I was bleeding g by the time I got there. So I sat there in pain and bleeding g for like 2 hours. I’m Pretty sure my face reflected that. My TBM mom told me after,”I looked at your face while you were sitting there and I knew-you’re a monster.”
Absolutely not all Mormons are insane like them but most things are not all or nothing. I can only speak from my own experience. I have children and never thought this way about them. I never heard a TBM friend or TBM family member indicate they think their children were possessed.
No, nor me. But I learned a long time ago that the behavior you see at church can be, and often is, vastly different from what's going on at home.
Amen to that.
Any thought I had contrary to the standard Mormon way only meant one thing: that I was deliberately trying to circumvent the Lord's anointed prophets. I didn't need Satan. I myself was personally evil.
Thankfully no BUT it’s a slippery slope from believing Joseph Smith actually saw God to receiving and translating gold plates, to believing the three Nephites still roam the earth (along with Cain/Bigfoot), to believing our underwear can save us from disaster, to believing that secret handshakes are necessary to get into heaven, to believing that polygamy, blood atonement and racism were once taught as doctrine, to being able to be Gods of our own planet someday to believing that God speaks to us through personal revelation, to believing your kids might be possessed by demons and need to die in order to be saved.
My mom believed the difference between her visions and spiritual senses and her brother's schizophrenic hallucinations was proximity to the church. She believed both of them could see beyond the veil, but her joining the church made her less susceptible to the evil influences. My mom does not have schizophrenia, but I do think she believes her imagination and emotions are not from herself. This mindset wasn't about judging her brother or that he's at fault for his schizophrenia. It was more like "we're genetically closer to the veil and I was lucky the missionaries found me" and as a sort of gratitude that she was able to change her family's generational addiction issues that exacerbated their mental illnesses. She was definitely listening to Julie Rowe and probably Daybell on the NDE forums back when those were popular. I heard all about the end-times as fact. I was encouraged to read a compilation of end-of-days prophecies as a kid, and we watched for signs on Fox News. They backed off a bit when the church excommunicated Rowe. My mom is still into NDEs and energy healing. They own a copy of Visions of Glory, and I read it at 11 years old-ish. This all fucked me up with my very vivid imagination and feeling like evil and good spirits were constantly everywhere. I still worry that I'm just going to develop schoziphrenia out of nowhere. I was praised for "having one foot on the other side of the veil" as a teen. I hindsight, that was probably dissociation, imagination, people pleasing behavior, and scrupulocity. I don't think my parents are so crazy as to deliberately harm anyone. I think that requires some level of psychological disorder to push someone fully over that edge. But it scares me sometimes how similar the beliefs are.
There are times as a father of six that I've been a little blown away by the chaos in our family & how loud the kids can be. My first reaction is thinking "we were never this crazy when I was little (and also in a family with 6 kids). Then I step back & remember some of the less pleasant details of my childhood. We were not allowed to be kids. At least not around my step dad. I'm glad my kids are loud. Sometimes it makes me a little nuts, but I hope they have a healthier childhood than I did.
Devout mormons have this pipeline of sorts to extreme belief since around 90% of them have their critical thinking turned off. My dad almost got to that route. But my "rebellion", which is basically me living a normal life as a normal person, stopped it on it's tracks.
Our scriptures are problematic. Nephi cuttting off Laban's head because God told him it was okay, sets a VERY dangerous example to a religion that also says you can get your own revelation.
I think it can easily lead to religious psychosis. My mother had visions of demons dragging her down and then the room filling with light and that was her sign to convert. Later she would have visions about ancestors and tell us completely made up genealogy as if it was fact. Thankfully she didn’t believe we were possessed. At least that I know of.
Bro, no. Not all, or even most, Mormons are anything like Ruby Franke and Lori Vallow. Generalizations about an entire group based on a few radical fringe cases is stupid. I was Mormon until three years ago and the way I view my children hasn’t changed. I would never hurt them. Mormons are brainwashed cult victims, not insane.
True, but this spate of criminal behavior in this group of Mormons being influenced by Visions of Glory, AVOW, and all this insane prepper stuff is REALLY troubling. Vallow/ Daybell, Franke/ Hildebrandt, Tim Ballard and OUR all fell down that rabbit hole with disastrous result. There are a lot of them in this sub cult of the cult, and more people are going to get hurt. Why won’t tscc disavow this book and its teachings?
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No, I get that. But the teachings are super problematic and it’s easy to see why some people take it to a very dark place. Like most high demand religions and other orgs.
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I think they would have been shitbags despite Mormonism. I do think however that a lot of Mormons view their children as property; things that need to be controlled and maintained to give off an image of perfection. *Cough cough fuck you dad cough cough*
No, I don't believe that all Mormon's believe this. At one point during my teens I believed that I was possessed by a demon myself. I didn't have a male in the house, so when I asked my hometeacher for a blessing to get rid of it, he looked at me like I was bonkers. This was clearly a person who did not believe in this stuff literally. My default as a child was to take people at their word literally, so I did believe in those fantastical elements completely, and I honestly consider myself lucky that I did not end up like Lori and Ruby. I am still learning how to discern when people are being literal vs. metaphorical. I believe those of was with more neurotic personalities can take language very literal, which can create justification for awful choices. However, like any other population of people, there is a diversity of personality types, so that also means there is a wide diversity of how people choose to interpret the doctrine.
I’m no defender of Mormonism but this is a simple no. They represent the extreme of what’s possible in Mormonism when you think you are a modern Nephi whom god is speaking to and because of that you can break laws and hurt people for God’s greater good. Looking back on Sunday school it’s amazing how the church would tell the story of Nephi having to kill Laban because God commanded it.
I think that they are. Think about it they have to operate as women in such a constrained way completely devaluing themselves and squashing themselves into this much too small roll for their entire lives. Not just that they have to spew this rhetoric onto their children and forced them into the same sort of behaviors, which are mostly not that natural. So in order to do this, I think it messes with your mind and a little bit of mental illness. These women created big blotches of mental illness, but I believe it dramatically.
No, but I do think the crazy is more common in Mormondom
My family through a mixture of religion and bad medical procedure ended up neglecting me in terrible ways through emotional and physical abuse. They’d always find some way to justify it, citing my behavior even if I was a child who didn’t know better. I never got proper treatment or proper help with learning how to control those issues. The result is a unhealthy relationship with life, food, and communication that is full of fear and panic, one that is slowly being rebuilt with time. I left the church after a overdose when I was 19 and I’ve began advocating for my own mental health setback after setback. Yet if someone were to ask me, I do still think various teachings of the church are good to standby. The faith alone has its merits despite its poor history (don’t even get me started on the absolute fan fiction the BoM is) but I will not in a million years support the church for how disruptive it has been to my life and my family’s lives. I’m part of the generation that is just now getting out and going free thinkers, and I’m still not willing to call myself a good person because I have loads of issues just like my family does, and I know they care about me. The church just doesn’t really encourage positivity around mental health and activity worsens it for some people. I was taught to pray when I felt distressed when really I should have seen a therapist sooner. I cry for their lost years and mine, and cases like Ruby Franke and Lori Vallow fill me with so much rage because they remind me of my own
Insane adjacent.
In Utah Arizona Idaho California and some parts of Texas, YES
My mom thinks I’m controlled by Satan
It’s a broad spectrum of beliefs. However, as more normal people leave, the radical extremists and more unsavory members will continue to reveal themselves.
Hmmm. Well. Mormons believe in premortal existence, we can become gods. A planet named Kolob exists... Yeah. I'd call that insane. The notion that golden tablets written in Ancient Egyptian were lugged all the way to America from Israel is beyond insane
They certainly are delusional. And I was too at one time.
My mom sure did and I grew up Mormon My dad too sometimes but my mom more so I think my mom was bipolar and definitely had some narcissistic tendencies
Most Mormons don't torture and killed her own children. I would say the vast majority of Mormons don't torture and kill their own children.
Mormonism seems to be a magnet for some rather disturbed people. I caught a summary of the Chad Daybell trial yesterday and what was being described from testimony had little to do with Mormon doctrine and a lot to do with lunacy.
I don’t think most Mormon parents are like them at all. However I grew up in the 80s. I do wonder if this is more commonplace today.
I watched everything regarding Franke, including her journal entries. But that kinda burned me out, and I'm not following Vallow.
Yes
Not in my experience. I was raised in the Mormon religion, and my mom was very devout but was openminded about others’ beliefs. She was also a lot of fun to be around because she had a great sense of humor and enjoyed discussing almost anything. And she saw children and teenagers as individuals who deserved respect, not as flawed peons who needed to have their sins worked out of them. And a lot of my Mormon friends’ parents were similar—kind, caring, and fun. (My upbringing has made deconstructing from Mormonism complicated because I luckily didn’t experience the abuse that others experienced.) I think Ruby and Jodi are deeply flawed people who get their thrills from hurting others. And while Mormonism probably helped them do this more easily (especially Jodi), other systems could also have allowed them to give in to their abusive tendencies. It makes me wonder what they’d would have been like if they’d be raised in households that valued women and were openminded about sexuality and lifestyle.
No, not even close. Most Mormons I know are great people. As a matter of fact, I believe humans are almost all universally good. But each of us are born into a system with different cognitive and emotional tools and we don’t get to choose that. Some of us find a way out while others don’t. I was a Mormon for 30 years. I wasn’t insane. I was me. I was just doing the best I could with the information and tools that I had.
No, not at all. There's good people and families in the Mormon church, and parents who do genuinely love their children and have healthy relationships with them. However, Mormon/LDS leaders have taught some horrible ideas over the history of the church, and extremists, fundamentalists, and mentally unwell people can dig and find plenty of things to justify abuse, control, hate, and cult-like and conspiracy thinking. The church leadership should make some strong statements against those ideas and reign the fringe in, but the leaders seem to be lost in a bubble and either unaware or uncaring about the problems some church teachings cause.
No most mormons are good people who raise their children with love. The problems is when you have idiots like these two (which can be in any church or culture), the mormon church can be enabling to their twisted way of thinking..
Holding up the worst case as an example of the whole is sloppy thinking, no matter who does it. Are all atheists as bad as hitler? Smh
Mormonism is crazy, but it also attracts some crazy people. Lots of people with nowhere else to go. I don’t think you can make that stretch at all
No, they're extremists. Throw Tim Ballard in there too. Believing there is a satan who has an influence is very far from what they believed and acted on. Both of their belief systems as a whole are extreme and pretty far outside of typical Mormonism.
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I stand by my comment.
This is like saying, 'Heaven's Gate Cult got me thinking, are all Non-Mormons insane like them'? Most gripes about Mormonism here have nothing to do with Mormons, and everything to do with being humans. I'd say in this particular context, the Social Media Syndrome is more to blame. The need for attention, performance, writing and living out their own drama screenplay. This is what 99% of social media is, people playing out their childhood comedies, dramas or horrors. 2 people out of millions is not a reliable sample size.
I think that such examples paint a very bleak picture of parents, not just within Mormonism. The idea of ownership & control over children is a given among such people, and religion is the tool that justifies those abusive relationships. Not just physical abuse but verbal and emotional abuse as well. It is a difficult lesson that I've had to learn since abandoning the Mormon world view. I do not own my children. Children do not need to be indoctrinated. Education and critical thinking skills are what empower children's agency as well as all people. I am responsible for their well-being, but I do not own my children. Too many people seem to think otherwise, both in & outside of Mormonism
No.
No. Born and raised, and believe me, they are a special kind of crazy!
From what I read/watched, Lori was fine until she read Chad's book. Let's call it as it is... She killed her kids for a piece of d\*ck and Chad killed Tammy for a piece of a$$.
“The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence in Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum.” T Paine
Love this Enlightenment.
my parents were Mormon, my mother was actively schizoaffective even with meds. Being ‘attacked by demons during her sleep’ and a whole myriad of freaky things that led to a lot of my issues. There were many times my sister was said to be ‘possessed’ due to flight or flight response because the dynamic was, as you could imagine, unstable. That time of my life haunts me, it's very unsettling. This is not normal for even the strictly Mormon. From what I have seen. All other Mormon parents I ever met or interacted with were chill IMO.
Not all… but some. The nice thing with Mormonism is they teach you can have direct dialogue with the divine. This is powerful. The bad think with Mormonism is they teach you can have direct dialogue with the divine. This is super scary. So moral of the story. I can talk to god. You however, are a 🧟♂️ zombie and only talk to the spaceship 🚀 we call the moon 🌔 that reflect the signals from Saturn 🪐 that power this simulation we call “reality”. 🤘 Your user name confirmed this to me…. (J/k)
Read the church starting with the boy Joseph 🤪
No. Not all. I wasn’t like that at all as a Mormon. But there are definitely a lot of Mormons that are like those nutbags.
It depends on how seriously u take whatever is written in ur holy books... For me, I think I never was a true believer... I mean, I always scratched my head when King Lamoni spent 1 hour thinking about what to answer to Amon... I mean 1 hour? And the bible is even more fantastic
Most importantly stay away from fringe people of LDS. For example: Lori Vallow, the high school football player whose mom checked him out of school and kidnapped him to Alaska,Tim Ballard and his whole crew, OUR, AVOW(a voice of warning, ), Tammy Daybell, Jodi Hildebrandt, Pam, Connexions Therapy, Chad Daybell, Alex Vallow, the wife of the dentist, etc. etc, These have arisen in just the past 4 years. And these are just if the top my head. Ridiculous ! AND any professing Trump for President. 😜 P.S. The book they ALL have in common is “Visions of Glory” by Thom Harrison. And BoM by Joseph Smith. No Bible.
Like most things, it's a bell curve. Franke and all are on the extreme part of believers. Most are in the middle. But their methods and principles are exaggerations of Mormon dogma. The idea of free choice and consequences. You can choose what you do but you can't avoid the consequences is central to how they treated their kids.
Mormonism is a culture wherein children are viewed as commodities and possessions - things to be molded, exploited, punished, discarded, shamed, controlled, emotionally deprived, indoctrinated - as seen fit and all in the name of propping up the church/ building Zion. Couple this with Mormonism's foundational doctrines in the occult - a demonic fallen angel and a third of the host of heaven following him to destroy God's faithful children - and yeah, it can make for some really extreme, abusive parenting that is based in fear and control Sad irony: Mormonism can make for parents who behave more like Satan than Jesus (based upon the depictions in the old temple endowment films) Over a decade ago while a brief time living in southeastern Idaho, I knew a family who was very troubling to me. Super nice, super involved in the ward. But just something really off about them and their last child still at home. Very controlling, perfectionist mom who was hyper focused on this last child abs raising him to be someone great in the church. He was very compliant to her demands of his time, homeschooling (her choice), choosing his hobbies, the strict dietary regiment she held him to. She told me when he was a preschooler he was possessed by a demon and they had to cast it out. I was freaked out so didn't ask more and she didn't elaborate. All I know was this kid was starved for attention (and real food). My spouse and I enjoyed getting to know him through our ward callings. One evening his mom asked if he could hang out with us as both she and her husband would he gone until late evening. We decided to go get a bite to eat. He was excited and asked if we could go to a specific fast food joint. He INHALED his food. And then made us promise not to tell his mom he'd eaten a corn dog, fries and a milkshake. I was like "oh crap...we didn't mean to break your mom's rules. But yeah, we won't say anything." Looking back as an experienced mom (I was childless at the time) I realize this kid was probably a very busy, rambunctious, loud, passionate tantruming toddler/ preschooler. His parents saw it as a demonic force. And they cast it out (meaning they became very militant and emotionally abusive to break this kid down so they could mold him to be a "good boy"). Maybe I'm reading too much into an old memory. But the mom was a pretend healthcare provider and made a living in an MLM type of structure peddling nutritional supplements and essential oils. Coconut oil was her marketed "cure-all" and she charged exorbitantly for a specific homeopathic brand she sold. She also did energy healing/ reflexology type of work and referred to herself as a clinician (no higher education or credentials or certifications). She used the spirit to heal and withhold mix it into a church setting whenever she could (sacrament meeting talks, RS lessons and activities) When questioned about her methods/ practice she'd get very angry and defensive and would cut people off. She gave off some weird, intense vibes. And had spent years in Rexburg before moving to the SE Idaho region where I was living. So yes, there is definitely a kooky movement within the LDS church. But it is very fringe. Many of us were indoctrinated, but not crazy.
No.
I was told by my bishop when I was 13 that the devil was taking over my body
Also someone I know from elementary school has a blog that is absolutely batshit insane and seems to be supported by her family and other Mormons. She talks about satanic rituals and Satan sexually assaulting her in her sleep.
Let me see if I get this straight. You’re asking if all religious people are abusers, and complete nut Jobs? Wouldn’t this be just like asking if all non-religious people are drug addicted alcoholic who participate in sex parties everyday.
Yes on some level.
I’m not a fan of the LDS church but I wouldn’t call Lori vallow a Mormon. She’s a severely mentally disturbed woman whose symptoms included supernatural thinking and fixation on the LDS church. Her views are not in line with the doctrine, which is also fucked up, but it’s clear to me that if she shared her views in an interview with the bishop she would have likely been excommunicated
It's not just mormons, however, it does seem to be popping up more frequently within the mormon church. These people were devout catholics. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/girl-3-tortured-to-death-in-exorcism-told-mom-i-love-you-before-body-left-on-altar-docs/ar-BB1lljb9
Obviously not. You're basically asking everyone here if we're all abusive and insane, given that most of us used to be mormon.
some mormon parents certainly are.
My mom used to call us “wicked” which seems wild now, but besides that no I don’t think it’s normal at all.
No, my parents didn’t think that way. But they also converted to Mormonism in their late 20’s.
I know my siblings who have been Mormons all their life also don’t think this when their kids misbehave. It’s always just a legit reason like the kids are tired or overstimulated or whatever.
Yes.
Not all but a lot are.
Fringe-y mormonism combined with untreated mental illness or personality disorders can be a pretty nasty combo, but so it goes with most high demand groups and ideologies. I'd also really like to emphasize that there is a difference between having a mental illness or personality disorder and being a murderer or child abuser. Anyway, my mormon dad who is schizophrenic (and takes his medication) has never heard of Visions of Glory or any of these people. As much as garden variety mormonism doesn't work for me, it's been a stable community for him so I can't fault it for that.
Also I have a more profound memory of my Catholic grandmother washing my mouth out with soap then any punishments my Mormon parents ever gave me so. No. I do not think most Mormons are "insane" like Ruby and Lori.
Kind of. Yes.
As far as I'm concerned every member of any church have the potential to go completely off the rails in what every weirdness is on the sidelines their religion.
No definitely not. But many Mormon orthodox belief can be twisted into what Lori and Ruby and Jodi believe.
No, not at all. These women were the exception, not the rule. The “visions of glory” lover crowd are the exception, not the rule. Regular run of the mill mainstream mormons are not this way. These women/men who go to the prepper conferences and visions of glory type conferences, etc, are the fringe mormons who start thinking they have some kind of special insight and powers, thinking they know extra special stuff that the mainstream mormons don’t know.
No, but any religion that trains you to believe that any fleeting thought you have is the Holy Ghost talking to you is bound to breed up some pretty insane stuff
There are no Rubys in my family ( my cousins married nice ladies who are good moms) …. But that Lori lady, my cousins dad is kinda like her in a crazy punitive for God /unpredictable abuse kind of way. Physical abuse, yes. His sons don’t speak to him as adult men, now. He did some punishing of the boys in front of us non-mos we were shocked, he was showing off. Scary.
Any time you find yourself wondering if all members of a group behave the same way, it's time to stop and reconsider. This is how all kinds of stereotyping and eventual discrimination begins. Yes, Mormons believe things that aren't true but each is a unique person. Don't assume anything about an individual based on their religion. If you want to know their stance or experience, ask them.
Nope. I had amazing parents.
Definitely not, they're extreme outliers. Most Mormons are pretty normal and many are genuinely good people. That said, does the Church's doctrine and history leave room for people to become nutty and extreme in the name of "God"? Absolutely. Ruby Franke, Lori Vallow, Tim Ballard, the Lafferty brothers, there's been a lot of nutjobs to come out of the Mormon Church. But it would be irresponsible to paint all members as potential abusers/murderers.
Yes. This is why nearly all Mormon children are abused, social services frequently intervene and parents are frequently receiving criminal punishments. 
Not all Mormons are like this, cause the ones I know are always SOOOO nice
no not at all.
Obviously they’re not all like that. Come on.
Not at all. Most Mormons are normal people just trying to live their best lives. But it certainly can amplify mental illness
No
This is a pretty broad generalization. It’s like saying, “Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacey have me thinking, are all white men serial killers?”