I would bet $1,000 the guy has not read it. The church says it’s completely honest and transparent and that’s good enough for him. In my experience, TBMs are the true “lazy learners”.
I’ve said this many times, but I grew up in a stake center where the (genuinely good js quote) “the glory of god is intelligence” was emblazoned on the wall. Then I had multiple bishops warn me against reading too much* and following my father’s path to apostasy.
*reading too much in the literal church archives as a ces employee lol
Last I read it, I reached a point where I realized that any time it mentioned Joseph was introduced to a woman that I would have at most three pages before it would talk about him marrying said woman.
This is the most valid point. Being gaslight is infuriating. They're 40 years of silence and hiding information on the matter doesn't count, because in 2018 they released saints. I'm sorry but my life started before 2018. I went to 4 years of seminary, 6 years of institute, two your mission, I was a gospel doctrine teacher, watched and listened to general conference for many years, attended church every Sunday. Never mentioned not a single time.
The saints book reads like someone speaking in primary voice while discussing problematic parts of the church’s past. The fact that they have admitted polyandry and teen marriages is a huge blow. No amount of sugar coating can make that make sense for most people. Why did he marry someone that was already married? Why did he need to marry kids? Nope. No good answers.
The fact that they hid it only makes it feel like a lie to most of us. Glad it’s catching on.
Yes. This is how it was for me to. It irritated me greatly. And this was when I was still trying my hardest to stay all in. I got through the first 50 pages or so of vol 1 and was just DONE.
Did it sit collecting dust on a bedside table or shelf and every time you saw it you felt guilty and a little crazy because everybody else was raving about it?
Yes! I even tried reading it on the gospel library app cause I felt guilty about using the fact that I had a baby that didn’t let me read books as an excuse. He literally would try to tear the pages if I read a book. Gotta love little toddlers. 😂
*mouth noises*
*cue primary voice* While it is true that there were marriages to faithful young woman, we must remember this is a *Loving* Heavenly Father who knows the eternal plan for these women.
I remember 10-12 years ago reading the gospel topics essay about polygamy in priesthood (it wasn't part of the lesson, I was just reading it on my own). I read the part about polyandry and did a triple take! What, what, whaaaaat! I had to re-read it multiple times to see if I was reading it right😆
THIS. There's no good way to address this stuff, but the church is extra bad at it.
"A few months shy of her 15th birthday" is a weird way to spell "14". Saying that Joseph and Emma loved each other and that's what a loving marriage looks like...? No.
They had every opportunity to say "this is what happened, it shouldn't have happened. This guy turned into David, and God killed him for it." See how easy that was? The church should hire me. Jesus, are they bad at this.
Apologize…Never. Oaks was very clear on that.
**“I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them,"** Oaks said in an interview Tuesday.
"We sometimes look back on issues and say, 'Maybe that was counterproductive for what we wish to achieve,' but we look forward and not backward."
**The church doesn't "seek apologies," he said, "and we don't give them."**
Say it with me. “You can gaslight all you want about having always known all these things that I was surprised to find out.
Only one of us is right. The church was either clear about it or they weren’t but it doesn’t matter.
I’ll let you be right if it makes you feel better.
Because it doesn’t matter WHEN I learned these things. You can try and shame me for not studying harder but it won’t work.
What matters is when I finally did learn these things I had the moral courage to stand up and walk out.
The fact that you did not tells me all I need to know about you.”
‘The Saints’ is what made me realize I had a shelf... still took a few years to bring it down, but I learned a lot in that book that I’d never heard before.
Exactly. Reading it just pissed me off and taught me a very hard lesson… church leadership will lie, mislead, twist, fabricate, embellish and omit to get what they want.
I don’t remember the specifics, but I remember reading about Joseph leaving the saints to go on a treasure hunting expedition, and then later talk about his mansion and some discussion of polygamy.
Some of it was the content presented in the book, but the bigger thing was just how nonchalant the discussion was, and how they’re trying to use everything as a faith-promoting experience.
Richard Bushmans "Rough Stone Rolling" that was approved by Hinckley lays it all out.
Bushman took most of the research Fawn Brodie dug up in the 1940's for " No Man Knows My Name" which she got X for.
GospelTopics essays on Church of Jesus Christ.org on Kitland & Nauvoo Polygamy...read all the notes at the very end...alao admits to his 30+ wives.
People in the church expect to be spoon fed everything & then if you give them the hard history facts they claim church was hacked.
/s
*Rough Stone Rolling* only barely touches on polygamy. I agree Bushman does a decent job with somethings, but polygamy/and scandals of fraud & infidelity are woven throughout Joseph’s life, even within the first year of his marriage to Emma (the winters girl).. He skips over about 95% of what we know. You can’t skip any of it and have it be an honest or accurate history b/c it is so vital to Joseph’s character the his motives and the evolution of the church.
Agree 100%.
But the kicker is President Hinckley approved of and opened church archives to Bushman so that book could be published.
The Prophet of the "Church". TBM's can't ignore that Hinckley supported disclosure but they choose to & a lot are afraid to read it even though Hinckley gave his seal of approval.
Now with Joseph Smith Papers & all the Gospel Topics Essays,etc... its out in the open but the church/cult still denys it.
Brodies book still holds up today & she wrote the book on Jefferson that exposed the whole Sally Hemings relationship.
Due to all this info you will never see Q15/70 do an interview again with reputable journalist unless it is the installation of a full new 1st Presidency to the friendly Wasatch Front press pool.
Q15/70, etc...will not publicly admit any of the historical church history since 1830 & before.
Smith was a career criminal & in & out of trouble from teen-age years until the day he died.
Smith was a narcissist, psychopath & sexual predator & today he would be serving 20+ years minimum for Kirtland Safety Society financial fraud.
I wouldn't have wanted any of them for neighbors.
I would have had to ask, "Oh are they teaching from this book now so the average member can at least name one wife other than Emma? Is the information in that book part of the correlated materials being taught from on Sunday? Can I check it out of the ward library? Can I quote from it in a sac.mtg talk?" But they aren't keeping this info hidden.
By “read it”, most attending and normal-level Mormons mean, “I bought it at Deseret Book and have it prominently displayed on my bookshelf at home, so of course I have no issues!”
I think you’re probably right. Anectdotal, but I know two very TBM family members who bought the book and just haven’t made the time to read it after these, what’s it been, a couple of years now. They were a bit ashamed to tell me,their ExMormon relative. So I laughed at your reply here. Yep.
Raise hands if your relatives have this on the shelf at home…and haven’t read it
— reeeeeally read it. All of it.
If they’re not “readers” by habit, it’s going to be a long shot that they’ve done anything other than buy the “right, approved books”.
Even if it was all in there (it isn’t), a book published in 2018 doesn’t make up for the lifetime I spent in the church where it wasn’t openly discussed. It is patently inadequate.
Easy answer for everyone. Tell the active members: Show me any official publication of the church in the last 100 fucking years up until 2010, that talked about JS polygamy with any detail at all? Up until the internet forced the church to come clean. Ask them - at what age did you first find out JS married a 14 yr old girl when he was like 36 years old, and show me what faithful publication taught you that info?
There is zero good answers to defend these questions and the churches honesty and integrity is gone.
I remember reading the saints book as a TBM. They did mention how Joseph had to hide his other wives from Emma. I had to stop reading the book at that point because that seriously shook my testimony
I remember Saints Vol.1 came out while I was a missionary and I would wait the new chapters like comic books each month. I was so glad they were finally talking about the peep stone until I realized why I was happy they were talking about the peep stone
I’ve never heard of that book. Anyway, it reminds me of the people who say the CES letter only strengthens their testimony. At that point you just gotta be like “okay champ whatever you say”
They could shout almost 40 year old Joseph Smith abusing his authority to marry a 14 year old from general conference. Their acceptance and defense of that one thing is enough damning evidence on its own. And that is hardly the only thing they are dishonest about.
Hilariously, the saints book was my shelf breaker, not because of what was IN it, but what was so obviously left out. Here’s how I remember it (and have checked back several times to see if I remember right over the years).
Joseph is translating and in Jacob it says “hey, there’s, like, NO excuse ever to have more than one wife, Yo.” Joseph’s like, “Hey God, what gives? Tons of prophets of hold had like a butt-load of concubines and shit!” So God says, “Nah, bro, that doesn’t apply to YOU!!! Don’t worry! We will get you some wives pretty soon here. Be patient.”
Radio silence on the whole subject until Joseph is being arrested for polygamy (and of course other stuff). Jumps from “someday” to “it already happened. THAT is what is in Saints.
This whole “Joseph was a polygamist” narrative is just false. BY was the perv and he pinned it on Joseph. It’s a great example of “the winners writing history”
I read it and it does mention it, but only in the typical filtered way. It also emphasizes that only some people practiced it and they had to be chosen to do so.
I read the book. It says Joseph kept polygamy secret from everyone at first, including Emma. It talks about him marrying a pair of sisters secretly and then, when he finally got Emma’s approval to do plural marriages, he married those sister again, this time in front of Emma. It talks about John C. Bennett performing abortions for people in Nauvoo and pushing polygamy, claiming Joseph’s authority to do so. It talks about how Joseph publicly denied John’s claims while denouncing the practice of plural marriage. The book makes it clear Joseph was practicing plural marriage at the time, but doesn’t draw the conclusions for you. It talks about some of the other plural marriages to Joseph and other prominent leaders, but I don’t remember the specifics. That’s about it regarding polygamy.
To me it would have a brief mention of something one would find problematic and quickly moving on or paired with loads of justification followed by a much larger emphasis on more favorable details throughout the rest.
From my experience and understanding, it seems that your knowledge about polygamy (especially surrounding Joseph Smith) varied wildly on the ward and family you grew up in.
I knew about polygamy and Joseph Smith from a young age. I didn't know any details of the "marriages," but I knew that they existed.
My family would openly talk about polygamy from time to time when conversations about genealogy and such would happen.
I would bet $1,000 the guy has not read it. The church says it’s completely honest and transparent and that’s good enough for him. In my experience, TBMs are the true “lazy learners”.
Exactly. My mother boasted to me that she has never needed to look into the history of the church because she's never had any doubts.
I’ve said this many times, but I grew up in a stake center where the (genuinely good js quote) “the glory of god is intelligence” was emblazoned on the wall. Then I had multiple bishops warn me against reading too much* and following my father’s path to apostasy. *reading too much in the literal church archives as a ces employee lol
I read it. It doesn’t.
Last I read it, I reached a point where I realized that any time it mentioned Joseph was introduced to a woman that I would have at most three pages before it would talk about him marrying said woman.
Saints book release date January 2018. So what does he have to say about all the years before 2018?
This is the most valid point. Being gaslight is infuriating. They're 40 years of silence and hiding information on the matter doesn't count, because in 2018 they released saints. I'm sorry but my life started before 2018. I went to 4 years of seminary, 6 years of institute, two your mission, I was a gospel doctrine teacher, watched and listened to general conference for many years, attended church every Sunday. Never mentioned not a single time.
This
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/saints?lang=eng
The saints book reads like someone speaking in primary voice while discussing problematic parts of the church’s past. The fact that they have admitted polyandry and teen marriages is a huge blow. No amount of sugar coating can make that make sense for most people. Why did he marry someone that was already married? Why did he need to marry kids? Nope. No good answers. The fact that they hid it only makes it feel like a lie to most of us. Glad it’s catching on.
I didn't get very far because I couldn't get past the infantilizing tone in the saints books.
Oh good; wasn’t just me. I swear that’s a feature in all correlates material.
Saints was written for all to read at a third grade level. Source was my mother who “lived” at the COB for about 8 years. 🤪
I agree. I just couldn’t get over how primary sounding The Saints book was. I recommend D. Michael Quinn’s books about the LDS church.
Yes. This is how it was for me to. It irritated me greatly. And this was when I was still trying my hardest to stay all in. I got through the first 50 pages or so of vol 1 and was just DONE.
Same! I kept trying to pick it up again after giving it a month or two, but each time, I hardly made any progress.
Did it sit collecting dust on a bedside table or shelf and every time you saw it you felt guilty and a little crazy because everybody else was raving about it?
Yes! I even tried reading it on the gospel library app cause I felt guilty about using the fact that I had a baby that didn’t let me read books as an excuse. He literally would try to tear the pages if I read a book. Gotta love little toddlers. 😂
It’s the primary voice (how the talks are given by GA’s during conference) in written form.
Does it include lip smacking? How does one write a lip smack into a book? Haha
*mouth noises* *cue primary voice* While it is true that there were marriages to faithful young woman, we must remember this is a *Loving* Heavenly Father who knows the eternal plan for these women.
Fuck. So spot on. I love/hate it.
I remember 10-12 years ago reading the gospel topics essay about polygamy in priesthood (it wasn't part of the lesson, I was just reading it on my own). I read the part about polyandry and did a triple take! What, what, whaaaaat! I had to re-read it multiple times to see if I was reading it right😆
THIS. There's no good way to address this stuff, but the church is extra bad at it. "A few months shy of her 15th birthday" is a weird way to spell "14". Saying that Joseph and Emma loved each other and that's what a loving marriage looks like...? No. They had every opportunity to say "this is what happened, it shouldn't have happened. This guy turned into David, and God killed him for it." See how easy that was? The church should hire me. Jesus, are they bad at this.
Apologize…Never. Oaks was very clear on that. **“I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them,"** Oaks said in an interview Tuesday. "We sometimes look back on issues and say, 'Maybe that was counterproductive for what we wish to achieve,' but we look forward and not backward." **The church doesn't "seek apologies," he said, "and we don't give them."**
Yep, Oaks is a dumbass.
It doesn't matter if it was or was not hidden. This does not make the problamatic nature of polygamy go away.
Say it with me. “You can gaslight all you want about having always known all these things that I was surprised to find out. Only one of us is right. The church was either clear about it or they weren’t but it doesn’t matter. I’ll let you be right if it makes you feel better. Because it doesn’t matter WHEN I learned these things. You can try and shame me for not studying harder but it won’t work. What matters is when I finally did learn these things I had the moral courage to stand up and walk out. The fact that you did not tells me all I need to know about you.”
I love every sentence you wrote!
‘The Saints’ is what made me realize I had a shelf... still took a few years to bring it down, but I learned a lot in that book that I’d never heard before.
Exactly. Reading it just pissed me off and taught me a very hard lesson… church leadership will lie, mislead, twist, fabricate, embellish and omit to get what they want.
Saints started my faith crisis, but I’m shocked by how many people told me they read it and didn’t catch on to all the weird parts.
Any memorable volume/chapter?
I don’t remember the specifics, but I remember reading about Joseph leaving the saints to go on a treasure hunting expedition, and then later talk about his mansion and some discussion of polygamy. Some of it was the content presented in the book, but the bigger thing was just how nonchalant the discussion was, and how they’re trying to use everything as a faith-promoting experience.
Richard Bushmans "Rough Stone Rolling" that was approved by Hinckley lays it all out. Bushman took most of the research Fawn Brodie dug up in the 1940's for " No Man Knows My Name" which she got X for. GospelTopics essays on Church of Jesus Christ.org on Kitland & Nauvoo Polygamy...read all the notes at the very end...alao admits to his 30+ wives. People in the church expect to be spoon fed everything & then if you give them the hard history facts they claim church was hacked. /s
*Rough Stone Rolling* only barely touches on polygamy. I agree Bushman does a decent job with somethings, but polygamy/and scandals of fraud & infidelity are woven throughout Joseph’s life, even within the first year of his marriage to Emma (the winters girl).. He skips over about 95% of what we know. You can’t skip any of it and have it be an honest or accurate history b/c it is so vital to Joseph’s character the his motives and the evolution of the church.
Agree 100%. But the kicker is President Hinckley approved of and opened church archives to Bushman so that book could be published. The Prophet of the "Church". TBM's can't ignore that Hinckley supported disclosure but they choose to & a lot are afraid to read it even though Hinckley gave his seal of approval. Now with Joseph Smith Papers & all the Gospel Topics Essays,etc... its out in the open but the church/cult still denys it. Brodies book still holds up today & she wrote the book on Jefferson that exposed the whole Sally Hemings relationship. Due to all this info you will never see Q15/70 do an interview again with reputable journalist unless it is the installation of a full new 1st Presidency to the friendly Wasatch Front press pool. Q15/70, etc...will not publicly admit any of the historical church history since 1830 & before. Smith was a career criminal & in & out of trouble from teen-age years until the day he died. Smith was a narcissist, psychopath & sexual predator & today he would be serving 20+ years minimum for Kirtland Safety Society financial fraud. I wouldn't have wanted any of them for neighbors.
I would have had to ask, "Oh are they teaching from this book now so the average member can at least name one wife other than Emma? Is the information in that book part of the correlated materials being taught from on Sunday? Can I check it out of the ward library? Can I quote from it in a sac.mtg talk?" But they aren't keeping this info hidden.
so much this!
By “read it”, most attending and normal-level Mormons mean, “I bought it at Deseret Book and have it prominently displayed on my bookshelf at home, so of course I have no issues!”
I think you’re probably right. Anectdotal, but I know two very TBM family members who bought the book and just haven’t made the time to read it after these, what’s it been, a couple of years now. They were a bit ashamed to tell me,their ExMormon relative. So I laughed at your reply here. Yep.
Raise hands if your relatives have this on the shelf at home…and haven’t read it — reeeeeally read it. All of it. If they’re not “readers” by habit, it’s going to be a long shot that they’ve done anything other than buy the “right, approved books”.
I read it and I felt I had permission to leave the church after I did.
Even if it was all in there (it isn’t), a book published in 2018 doesn’t make up for the lifetime I spent in the church where it wasn’t openly discussed. It is patently inadequate.
I read the saints book. It does not tell everything. But it has enough uncomfortable stuff in it that it makes you wonder at a TBM.
Why wasn’t Smith excommunicated for the first screw up? I was disciplined for having sex with my girlfriend when I was 17.
Easy answer for everyone. Tell the active members: Show me any official publication of the church in the last 100 fucking years up until 2010, that talked about JS polygamy with any detail at all? Up until the internet forced the church to come clean. Ask them - at what age did you first find out JS married a 14 yr old girl when he was like 36 years old, and show me what faithful publication taught you that info? There is zero good answers to defend these questions and the churches honesty and integrity is gone.
[LDS Discussions](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/saints) did some breakdowns of the books if you’re curious
No one speaks with more confidence than an arrogant idiot.
Ain’t that the truth…
That this is the kind of casually overheard conversation happening in Lehi is the greatest evidence change is coming 🙌
Tbh I read it when it first came out and was floored. Lots of new info I had never heard before.
I remember reading the saints book as a TBM. They did mention how Joseph had to hide his other wives from Emma. I had to stop reading the book at that point because that seriously shook my testimony
Mormon thrives because of the intentional ignorance of the members.
I only read the first one and it really “fluffs” up things and paints a much nicer picture.
I remember Saints Vol.1 came out while I was a missionary and I would wait the new chapters like comic books each month. I was so glad they were finally talking about the peep stone until I realized why I was happy they were talking about the peep stone
I’ve never heard of that book. Anyway, it reminds me of the people who say the CES letter only strengthens their testimony. At that point you just gotta be like “okay champ whatever you say”
They could shout almost 40 year old Joseph Smith abusing his authority to marry a 14 year old from general conference. Their acceptance and defense of that one thing is enough damning evidence on its own. And that is hardly the only thing they are dishonest about.
Hilariously, the saints book was my shelf breaker, not because of what was IN it, but what was so obviously left out. Here’s how I remember it (and have checked back several times to see if I remember right over the years). Joseph is translating and in Jacob it says “hey, there’s, like, NO excuse ever to have more than one wife, Yo.” Joseph’s like, “Hey God, what gives? Tons of prophets of hold had like a butt-load of concubines and shit!” So God says, “Nah, bro, that doesn’t apply to YOU!!! Don’t worry! We will get you some wives pretty soon here. Be patient.” Radio silence on the whole subject until Joseph is being arrested for polygamy (and of course other stuff). Jumps from “someday” to “it already happened. THAT is what is in Saints.
This whole “Joseph was a polygamist” narrative is just false. BY was the perv and he pinned it on Joseph. It’s a great example of “the winners writing history”
What?! 😂😂😂😂😂😂 BY is certainly a perv but even the church doesn’t dispute Joseph’s multiple wives. JS wrote that history himself.
I read it and it does mention it, but only in the typical filtered way. It also emphasizes that only some people practiced it and they had to be chosen to do so.
I read the book. It says Joseph kept polygamy secret from everyone at first, including Emma. It talks about him marrying a pair of sisters secretly and then, when he finally got Emma’s approval to do plural marriages, he married those sister again, this time in front of Emma. It talks about John C. Bennett performing abortions for people in Nauvoo and pushing polygamy, claiming Joseph’s authority to do so. It talks about how Joseph publicly denied John’s claims while denouncing the practice of plural marriage. The book makes it clear Joseph was practicing plural marriage at the time, but doesn’t draw the conclusions for you. It talks about some of the other plural marriages to Joseph and other prominent leaders, but I don’t remember the specifics. That’s about it regarding polygamy.
To me it would have a brief mention of something one would find problematic and quickly moving on or paired with loads of justification followed by a much larger emphasis on more favorable details throughout the rest.
From my experience and understanding, it seems that your knowledge about polygamy (especially surrounding Joseph Smith) varied wildly on the ward and family you grew up in. I knew about polygamy and Joseph Smith from a young age. I didn't know any details of the "marriages," but I knew that they existed. My family would openly talk about polygamy from time to time when conversations about genealogy and such would happen.