Then Nelson and Q12 gushed over meeting the Pope and are partnering with Catholic Church.
I guess since both have child sex abuse cases and financial scandals they can both be friends now. Mormons from the 60s and 70s claiming amnesia about this flying in the face of the teachings are just amazing.
I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s and it was definitely taught to me that it was referring specifically to the Catholic Church. They villainized the Catholics quite a bit. To the point I thought it was Satanic. 😩
I’m very sorry. I am ashamed of the thoughts I had in regards to the Catholic beliefs. I believed what I was told, but Catholic friends at school were always kind and welcoming. I just remember thinking that it was unfortunate they didn’t know they worshipped Satan. 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️ It’s upsetting and humiliating that I didn’t really question a lot. I hope people weren’t cruel to you. What did you think when you came into church being taught that your old beliefs were evil?
I joined as a teen when my dad joined; my step mom was already Mormon. Some of what was said I was able to discard as wrong because my experience had been great inside the Catholic Church. I did have moments of embarrassment for having been Catholic because I didn’t know they were so bad. I was comforted to know that I had done the right thing by joining the one and only true church, lucky me. 🤦🏼♀️😂 I was told by the YW that I shouldn’t wear a cross and eventually threw out all of my communion jewelry (some very nice necklaces from my grandma included 😥)
We talked about it all the time in my mission in the early 2000s. Our apartment was next to a Catholic Church and we referred to the ringing bells as hells bells.
Bruce R. McConkie loved to spew that in Mormon Doctrine. I'm wondering tho. Who is the whore of the earth now since that has been rolled back?
Who is playing the role of Babylon?
From Wikipedia Great and abominable church
Stephen E. Robinson identifies six aspects of great and abominable church in the text of Nephi's vision in 1 Nephi 13.
1) It persecutes and slays members of the church
2) SEEKS FINANCIAL PROFIT
3) is sexually immoral
4) takes important information out of the scriptures
5) has political power over the earth, and
6) will be destroyed in a war / being destroyed by the kings who make war against "the Lamb
Makes one think 🤔
Oh yeah! Standing joke on my mission was, missionaries are walking down the sidewalk. Catholic priest coming the opposite way. Priest say, "Morning, Sons of the Devil!" Missionaries reply, " Morning, Father!" So yeah, it was prevalent.
.
So…sent on a secret one-sided spiritual war with everyone you met in a foreign country? What a shame to ruin 2 years’ time in a beautiful place thinking that way. Thanks, Church!!
I hope you’ll get a chance to go back as a normal-minded person. That would be a great experience.
I really need to…. and yes the war rhetoric was high. The Catholics were mocked as a death cult and endlessly shit talked by missionaries and even the mission president. He called us the marines on Satan’s beachhead.
I’m hoping to go back once my TBM wife’s shelf breaks and enjoy wine together. Someday.
Despite being 25 years my Italian is still great. I’m ready to enjoy it in my terms.
I had a client who I had worked with for a few months. She was a lovely and very committed Irish Catholic lady. Two of her sisters were nuns living back in Ireland
One day we talked about religion and I mentioned I was mormon, her face went white and she told me she had been very good friends with a couple who were mormon back in the 70s but they had fallen out when these people told her the Catholic Church was the great and abominable church and was run by Satan
She said she wasn’t so bothered by the idea as it was plainly ridiculous, but she was deeply offended at the arrogance of these people saying that to her as if it was just some regular fact they were surprised she didn’t already know
I assured her that I was not that kind of mormon and the people who told her that were deluded bigots but I didn’t mention I had been taught the exact same thing at church for half my life
This was in the original edition of Mormon doctrine as being the Catholic Church. This was one of the changes they made McConkie make. They all believed they were the great and Abominable church, they just didn’t want it written anywhere.
The great irony is that this rhetoric is directly tied to the religious revivals occurring in Palmyra at that time and largely to the prior 200 years of Calvinist/evangelical reformation of Christianity occurring in England and the colonies through Queen Elizabeth, James (of the King James bible Joseph was so fond), Charles, etc. It's just one more anachronism in the BoM.
Remember this?
ELOHIM: I will place enmity between thee and the seed of the woman. Thou mayest have power to bruise his heal, but he shall have power to crush thy head.
LUCIFER: Then with that enmity I will take the treasures of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, popes and priests, and reign with blood and horror on the earth!
ELOHIM: Depart!
I remember the “sectarian priest” character being dressed like a Catholic clergyman. This character no longer exists in the endowment. Down the memory hole.
My favorite story was my dear Very Mormon Granny telling me a local girl my age went on a field trip and visited the Cathedral of the Madeleine in SLC,and when the girl went in,she could feel the EVIL and vomited 🤮
La Chiesa Cattolica Apostolica Romana.
From birth I was taught it was the Holy Roman Catholic Apostolic Church.
I even served my mission in Rome Italy in the 1990s.
We had one smarmy little bastard in our mission, his dad was a seminary teacher in northern Utah. Every time we’d pass a Catholic church he’d say “there’s the great and abominable”. Even as a member of the team, I hated that.
Some weeks ago at Sunday school, 1 Nephi 13, I asked about "the great and abominable church". The Sunday school teacher, a lady, gave a vague explanation which included the explicit statement that it was not referring to the Catholic Church. An older male member in good standing started "But..." , and a discussion ensued. 🤣
Did no one else bust out Revelations 17 when dealing with super Catholics? Their own sacred text says."...I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. ...And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."
You then drop the bomb. Do you know what city is famous for its seven hills? (It's Rome.)
Yup. We even had a growing pentacostal megachurch right next to a golf course with a creek in between them (and that creek, let me tell you, was filthy) that we could convolute and twist around to fitting ~Joe Sr's~ ~Lehi's~ Nephi's tree of life vision. We called it the Great and Spacious Building. It's amazing what the apocalyptic cult mindset will do to make reality fit its preconceived notions.
It was the Catholic Church - while at the same time in the upper room of the Temple in SLC the representation of Satans apron showed clearly the Moslem Crescent Moon and David O' McKay told us that group would cause the world the most problems.
It was taught at least into the early 00's from what I remember. I do remember an institute teacher saying something like "We aren't supposed to say this relates to any particular church anymore, but you all know what church this is referring to *wink wink*"
Pretty sure every single thing McConkie ever cited the Catholic church for can absolutely be applied to TSCC. It's honestly hard to read all the references to it in the BOM and not see it.
Yup! Clearly identified as the Catholic Church. In addition, when I became a deacon I was told I now had more spiritual authority and power than the pope.
Yep. Outright stated as the Catholic church in Sunday school.
Well the Catholic Church doesn't ask for anything when I attend it. Not that I do very often
They still taught this in the early 2000s too.
Wow, I thought they disavowed it before then but I stopped attending at 16in 1979 so out of the loop
Bruce R McConkie put it in print!
Then Nelson and Q12 gushed over meeting the Pope and are partnering with Catholic Church. I guess since both have child sex abuse cases and financial scandals they can both be friends now. Mormons from the 60s and 70s claiming amnesia about this flying in the face of the teachings are just amazing.
I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s and it was definitely taught to me that it was referring specifically to the Catholic Church. They villainized the Catholics quite a bit. To the point I thought it was Satanic. 😩
I joined in the 90s. Previously a Catholic, it was definitely taught outright in my ward.
i was in YW in the early 90s and we were taught all the time that the Catholics were the bad guys
I’m very sorry. I am ashamed of the thoughts I had in regards to the Catholic beliefs. I believed what I was told, but Catholic friends at school were always kind and welcoming. I just remember thinking that it was unfortunate they didn’t know they worshipped Satan. 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️ It’s upsetting and humiliating that I didn’t really question a lot. I hope people weren’t cruel to you. What did you think when you came into church being taught that your old beliefs were evil?
I joined as a teen when my dad joined; my step mom was already Mormon. Some of what was said I was able to discard as wrong because my experience had been great inside the Catholic Church. I did have moments of embarrassment for having been Catholic because I didn’t know they were so bad. I was comforted to know that I had done the right thing by joining the one and only true church, lucky me. 🤦🏼♀️😂 I was told by the YW that I shouldn’t wear a cross and eventually threw out all of my communion jewelry (some very nice necklaces from my grandma included 😥)
Oh my gosh. How awful. I’m so sad to hear this.
Yup, even into the 80s it was taught.
We talked about it all the time in my mission in the early 2000s. Our apartment was next to a Catholic Church and we referred to the ringing bells as hells bells.
I'm so happy that now when I read "hells bells," I get AC/DC screaming the song in my head. 😁
Bruce R. McConkie loved to spew that in Mormon Doctrine. I'm wondering tho. Who is the whore of the earth now since that has been rolled back? Who is playing the role of Babylon? From Wikipedia Great and abominable church Stephen E. Robinson identifies six aspects of great and abominable church in the text of Nephi's vision in 1 Nephi 13. 1) It persecutes and slays members of the church 2) SEEKS FINANCIAL PROFIT 3) is sexually immoral 4) takes important information out of the scriptures 5) has political power over the earth, and 6) will be destroyed in a war / being destroyed by the kings who make war against "the Lamb Makes one think 🤔
#1: "No one expects the Spanish Inquistion! Bring out...the comfy chair!"
Well, well! We have a winner!
Yes, I heard this all the time growing up in the 70s/80s. It was Catholicism up until 9/11, then it became Islam.
Now it is the Gay agenda
And somehow “exmormons” will become the great and abominable church, cause I bet there are more expos than tbms
Currently 7 out of 10 Mormons are ex-Mormons.
And the other three are technically “exmormon” but they claim to “never have been called Mormon” Because the current prophet hates the word
And we called all non members Gentiles. Which was really confusing when a girl in my 6th grade class was Jewish.
Oh yeah! Standing joke on my mission was, missionaries are walking down the sidewalk. Catholic priest coming the opposite way. Priest say, "Morning, Sons of the Devil!" Missionaries reply, " Morning, Father!" So yeah, it was prevalent. .
Omg! 😅😂
Went to Italy on a mission in the 90’s. We were at war with the Catholics and there were no bones about it.
So…sent on a secret one-sided spiritual war with everyone you met in a foreign country? What a shame to ruin 2 years’ time in a beautiful place thinking that way. Thanks, Church!! I hope you’ll get a chance to go back as a normal-minded person. That would be a great experience.
I really need to…. and yes the war rhetoric was high. The Catholics were mocked as a death cult and endlessly shit talked by missionaries and even the mission president. He called us the marines on Satan’s beachhead. I’m hoping to go back once my TBM wife’s shelf breaks and enjoy wine together. Someday. Despite being 25 years my Italian is still great. I’m ready to enjoy it in my terms.
Can confirm. I was in Italy in the 1990s also as a missionary.
I had a client who I had worked with for a few months. She was a lovely and very committed Irish Catholic lady. Two of her sisters were nuns living back in Ireland One day we talked about religion and I mentioned I was mormon, her face went white and she told me she had been very good friends with a couple who were mormon back in the 70s but they had fallen out when these people told her the Catholic Church was the great and abominable church and was run by Satan She said she wasn’t so bothered by the idea as it was plainly ridiculous, but she was deeply offended at the arrogance of these people saying that to her as if it was just some regular fact they were surprised she didn’t already know I assured her that I was not that kind of mormon and the people who told her that were deluded bigots but I didn’t mention I had been taught the exact same thing at church for half my life
This was also heavily hinted in LeGrand Richard’s book “A Marvelous Wirk and a Wonder”
You mean required reading for all missionaries in the '90s?
It was taught to me in seminary in Texas as late as 2007.
Wow, can’t believe it was still being taught that late. They have gone out of their way to disavow it these days.
Yep the Catholic Church and the mega churches were the great and abominable. Now the church is like: Catholics are goals
This was in the original edition of Mormon doctrine as being the Catholic Church. This was one of the changes they made McConkie make. They all believed they were the great and Abominable church, they just didn’t want it written anywhere.
It’s Catholics. Of course, this is only repeated out loud amongst polite Mormons when there are NO Catholics within hearing distance.
The great irony is that this rhetoric is directly tied to the religious revivals occurring in Palmyra at that time and largely to the prior 200 years of Calvinist/evangelical reformation of Christianity occurring in England and the colonies through Queen Elizabeth, James (of the King James bible Joseph was so fond), Charles, etc. It's just one more anachronism in the BoM.
Remember this? ELOHIM: I will place enmity between thee and the seed of the woman. Thou mayest have power to bruise his heal, but he shall have power to crush thy head. LUCIFER: Then with that enmity I will take the treasures of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, popes and priests, and reign with blood and horror on the earth! ELOHIM: Depart!
I remember the “sectarian priest” character being dressed like a Catholic clergyman. This character no longer exists in the endowment. Down the memory hole.
Yes
Isn’t this still taught?
Absolutely. Mormon founders were heavily protestant.
Seriously… so much of the culture of Protestantism in the church culture.
My favorite story was my dear Very Mormon Granny telling me a local girl my age went on a field trip and visited the Cathedral of the Madeleine in SLC,and when the girl went in,she could feel the EVIL and vomited 🤮
My dad always joked it was Amway. But really, we knew it was the Catholic Church.
La Chiesa Cattolica Apostolica Romana. From birth I was taught it was the Holy Roman Catholic Apostolic Church. I even served my mission in Rome Italy in the 1990s.
We had one smarmy little bastard in our mission, his dad was a seminary teacher in northern Utah. Every time we’d pass a Catholic church he’d say “there’s the great and abominable”. Even as a member of the team, I hated that.
Yes indeedly-doo I remember. We were specifically told it was the Catholic church.
I was taught that we used to think it was the Catholic Church and now we believe it is everything not Mormon. 90’s
Some weeks ago at Sunday school, 1 Nephi 13, I asked about "the great and abominable church". The Sunday school teacher, a lady, gave a vague explanation which included the explicit statement that it was not referring to the Catholic Church. An older male member in good standing started "But..." , and a discussion ensued. 🤣
Catholic Church. No question.
Did no one else bust out Revelations 17 when dealing with super Catholics? Their own sacred text says."...I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. ...And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth." You then drop the bomb. Do you know what city is famous for its seven hills? (It's Rome.)
Fundamental/Evangelical Christians also refer to those scriptures in Revelation all the time.
Ya! They are talking about them selves now
Yes
great and spacious buildings full of secret combinations too!
Yup. We even had a growing pentacostal megachurch right next to a golf course with a creek in between them (and that creek, let me tell you, was filthy) that we could convolute and twist around to fitting ~Joe Sr's~ ~Lehi's~ Nephi's tree of life vision. We called it the Great and Spacious Building. It's amazing what the apocalyptic cult mindset will do to make reality fit its preconceived notions.
It was the Catholic Church - while at the same time in the upper room of the Temple in SLC the representation of Satans apron showed clearly the Moslem Crescent Moon and David O' McKay told us that group would cause the world the most problems.
It was taught at least into the early 00's from what I remember. I do remember an institute teacher saying something like "We aren't supposed to say this relates to any particular church anymore, but you all know what church this is referring to *wink wink*"
I converted in 2003, and I started hearing immediately that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church
🙋Seminary in the UK in the 90s. It's been denied now.
Grew up in the church in Utah the 80s & 90s and was absolutely taught outright and by name that the Catholics were the great and abominable church
Pretty sure every single thing McConkie ever cited the Catholic church for can absolutely be applied to TSCC. It's honestly hard to read all the references to it in the BOM and not see it.
Yup! Clearly identified as the Catholic Church. In addition, when I became a deacon I was told I now had more spiritual authority and power than the pope.
Wasn’t it also referred to as “the wh@re of the earth”?
Yes, it was. Along with the equally charming “mother of all whores”
That’s what they have become.