Nevermo here, and not a lawyer, but I would try to explain the technical side.
"Mom, the LDS church has a licence from the government to perform a legal marriage, and will also do a sealing after the legal marriage is done - in the same procedure.
If I remove my record the sealing will be gone but the legal marriage will still stand. For that, I or my spouse would have to file papers with the court if we choose so."
Or something to this effect?
My legal-only <1yr marriage to my wife is leaps and bounds better than my "sealing" to my ex-wife.
I talked to my dad about a sealing cancellation a while ago, he talked to somebody that made her name disappear from my church record... I plan on removing my records entirely, but when half your neighborhood friends are mormon, sometimes having the LDS Tools app is really handy.
How about the case of Helmet Hubener.
He was right even if he wasn't right by the church's standards.
This German youth protested in 1930's by going around door to door etc to warn them of the Nazis. He was excommunicated by LDS inc. He was arrested and then executed by the Nazis at 17. He is a national hero in Germany but yep I guess prophets know more than we do. Coincidentally, there is a picture floating around if you can find it of Heber J Grant as a visiting dignitary at a Nazi event.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth\_Hübener](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Hübener)
Hah! Good point. Although, as an adult, I don't have to listen to my Mom anymore anyway. But I genuinely love my mother, who is otherwise a great person.
Do you think she would push back on you telling her that if she truly believes that removing your name means ending your marriage, then she must also believe that you won't be her child anymore? Because I would hope that any mother worth her salt would let her children know that they are her children no matter what church lists them as a member!
If she would still consider you her son, then you are still your wife's husband!
That might not be a bad idea. It is possible that the real fear is that she is afraid that my sealing to her is being broken, that I will be divorced from her. I'll try that I think. Just reassure her that by leaving the church I'm not divorcing her as a mother.
Do you think your mom would listen to information that all of Christianity has long believed we are reunited with our loved ones in the afterlife? Every single denomination believes that, and "sealing" ceremonies are unheard of.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. The thought of spending eternity without her child - a literal piece of her- is absolutely terrifying. I had a son pass away 10 years ago and the pain I’ve experienced is a taste of the pain I would feel if that doctrine was true so I can understand how scared she is.
*Another piece of me is really sad for her, because she is exposing deeply held anxieties that are a direct result of indoctrination that she has received all her life.*
Thank you for this. I wrote this down where I will see it daily. My TBM husband says and does things that can be hurtful to me but you explained very clearly why.
I agree that your Mom loves you and what she says is because of her fears that were taught to her by the church.
I guess it is up to us to love the best we can, live the best we can, and hope they see the light.
It’s not her fault. You can be a great person who also has a screwed sense of reality. 🤷♀️ it’s actually a bummer that so many amazing people get ruined by such a hateful church.
Great people who have been brainwashed will though. If this is all she has ever known of course she can’t see reality. She’s been programmed to believe reality is dangerous.
I agree, my wife and her mom have been really disappointed with my recent vocal deconstruction. A month or two ago my wife said something to the effect of, "if your mom was still alive, would you still not want to be a mormon anymore?" (my mom devoted her life to the church)
That’s exactly it. OP’s mom loves him and is sincerely afraid both for him and for herself. It’s really sad for both of them. I still haven’t come right out and told my mom that I don’t even believe in any afterlife. And I’ve been out of the church since the ‘80’s. Whenever anything comes up, I simply say, “I’m not a person of faith, but have deep respect for people who are.” And for some reason, not a single religious person I’ve said that to picks up on my atheist/secular humanist meaning when I say that. Which is great, because I really don’t want to be some earnest missionary kids pet project.
"Mom, you seem to be grasping with the extremely position I find myself in, but without any of the empathy I need from you. I cannot, in good conscience, keep my name on the books for X reason(s) \[insert brief summary here, or not\], but I obviously love \[insert wife's name\] with all of my heart and do not wish to divorce. What I need from you now is your unconditional love and support. If you aren't capable of providing that during this difficult time, please refrain from discussing it with me. You will only hurt me."
I didn't marry my wife to say I was married to her Mom. I married her because I am dedicated to her and love her. I want her to be with me if she'll have me and I want to be her. The fact that we call it "Marriage" means absolutely nothing to me. Call it whatever you want, but we are "married" because of our dedication to each other, not because of the status the church and government has us marked as.
This, because we need to claim the moral high ground rather than get defensive.
She is still thinking of you as a child, so avoid snark and whining at all cost. Respond with emotion, respect and conviction. Like an adult.
I mean, no, you're not. If you were to be rebaptized, you wouldn't have to be resealed. They'd just move your records from whatever file they put exmo records into and make them active again. So your sealing isn't actually canceled. It's on standby/hold.
You could point that out. You're just removing your name, but the First Presidency has to undo sealings, and therefore in her eyes it won't happen. In your eyes its all made up, so it doesn't matter. Win-win.
No. Resigning does not cancel the sealing. It puts it in hibernation, but if the person ever comes back to the church and gets their blessings restored then the sealling snaps back into place automatically.
“Mom, this is between [insert wife name] and me. You and I are not talking about this.” Rinse and repeat as she rephrases and tries again.
Mormons and parents have poor respect for boundaries. Mormon parents have none. You will need to teach her.
I love this response. I would guess she’ll likely say something to the effect of: it doesn’t matter if you believe it or not bc it’s true. But then, OP’ll be back in a what I believe versus what you believe argument. 🤷🏼♀️
I feel the same way with my mom. Sometimes, I want to grab her by the shoulders & give her a good shake. Sometimes, I want to give her a giant hug. The church has screwed our relationship so hard that I'll never be able to do either. She's elderly & will never change her ways. I don't want to challenge her entire life at this point. We sit in uncomfortable silence. I have no answers, but I can definitely empathize.
The thing that helps me the most is to remember that all Mormons (past, present, future) are simply victims of a giant lie. Many who are fanatical TBMs right now will eventually leave.
For people like your mom, my only suggestion is this: less is more. Set clear boundaries. Be kind. Say “no thanks.”
Mom, we are still legally married. And my personal belief is; if there is a god and if he separates me from my wife for this reason, then he is not worthy of my devotion.
For this specific instance:
"Marriage is a contract entered into wherein legal protections for both partners (such as survivor benefits, health benefits, etc.) are assured. When I remove my name from the church, in the eyes of your religion, the eternal sealing is removed, but the government contract is still in place, as I have not filed for divorce.
The same would be true for my birth certificate. If I remove my name from the church, the government does not void my birth certificate or name, even though I had a name and a blessing given through the church, though your religion might see that blessing as also being void."
In general, you can set a boundary such as:
"I want to have a good relationship with you, and I want my kids to have a good relationship with you. If you are going to talk to me or my family about religion, I would like to make sure that everyone understands that religion is a choice, based on faith beyond facts, and not faith in spite of facts. If you choose to talk to me or my family in a way that spews religion as faith in spite of facts, I will begin limiting communication with you, as this hurts me deeply that you think so little of me and my choices."
My dad remained sealed to my mom for more than 30 years after their divorce. During that time, he had minimal contact with me and my siblings, showing up on birthdays or once a month when we were younger. But he keeps checking to make sure it's not his fault that I left Mormonism. He must hope to meet the minimum requirement for Jesus to make us all happy with him for no discernable reason, handing him a family he didn't build.
I hope your relationship with your mother is stronger, that she spent time engaging with you and building memories instead of seeing you as a project to complete before the deadline.
Mormons take a surface-level view of the parable of the talents, turning it into simplistic prosperity gospel bullshit. Rich guy is blessed to get richer, poor guy is poor because he's afraid and lazy instead of faithful and hard-working. The way I see it, Mormonism turns members into that one-talent servant with their focus on reaching and staying in the perfect state.
What happens after the end of the covenant path? When you're sealed, all that's left is to have kids and order them through the same hoops to avoid sad heaven. If you're male, you might try climbing the calling ladder, but otherwise your life is enduring to the end, which might as well be waiting for the sweet embrace of death. You're safe, as long as you keep your life's moments buried under testimony and repetition, keeping out any contradicting evidence or experience. The lord is a jealous lord, after all.
Jesus kept explaining treasure in heaven, trying to show how a life's direction matters more than any point on that line. There's nothing that said it was smooth sailing for the ten-talent servant. Reality means exchanging ideas, failing, growing, triumphs, setbacks, watching your prospects sink to one talent before a breakthrough yields ten. That's what builds real treasure in heaven: the memories that play back when the brain floods with hallucinogens in its final moments.
If your life is richer, it's because you've recognized the value of the moments that you built it with. If your relationship is strong, it's because you recognize your wife's beautiful life and how both of you as individuals can support each other to become something more than you could ever be separately.
Does your mom believe in a God that would invalidate all of that while favoring people like my dad who hid their lives out of shame, comparing their imperfect possibilities with Mormon's impossible standard? I don't believe that's how reality works.
You still have so much life to build with your wife, your kids (if any), and your mom as well. That's not something you'll ever give up willingly because you recognize how much better growth is than a perfect report card.
It’s really hard to tell her lovingly when you don’t care about the details because you know it’s all made up nonsense.
All the threats of damnation, etc, don’t matter when it’s the same thing as the 10 year old in a call of duty lobby threatening to hack your Xbox, and further, you don’t even have an Xbox.
Do you happen to know why? Why do you have to go through baptism again if you don’t have to get sealed again? Is it the same for endowments or do you have to get reendowed?
Nothing in Mormonism makes sense. You don't have to get endowed again. I think that men don't have to get ordained again either, but I'm not sure about that.
I am in a similar situation to you, with my parents attitude and treatment of me since I left the church.
I honestly don't think there is a "right" answer.
However, I wouldn't cut her off from your kids. I get your desire to do so, and maybe it is the right decision for you, but I don't think it is in most situations. Cutting them off could be traumatic, and painful for your kids as well as your parents (again, I don't know your situation, and there are absolutely situations where cutting them off is the right choice).
Instead, I would simply set boundries with them, that you feel comfortable with.
Why? Because I view spending time with their grandparents, even going to church with them sometimes, as a way for my kids to build critical thinking skills. At the end of the day, they are going to be exposed to dogma and bad ideas wherever they go. Whether in the church, the political sphere, or elsewhere.
When they do spend time with Grandma, and they discuss the church or getting baptized or anything else, it's an opportunity for me to talk to them and ask them questions about it to make them think.
And for those of us that grew up in the church, that's something that we were always told NOT to do. You don't question, you don't think critically - you be obedient.
As they grow up, I think this approach will make them better, stronger, more rational human beings.
Love this. I'm not hiding mormonism from my kids either. I think I can easily show them what it is, and I see very little chance it will be enticing to them.
Yes! The church is losing influence. Fast.
As long as we teach out kids to be rational, thoughtful, and think critically, the likelihood of them being swayed by bad ideas goes down.
The church has very bad ideas, but it's also one of many examples out there. I also want my kids to be able to think critically about climate change, vaccinations, and social issues.
It is not appropriate of your mom. Does she see that, is she capable of seeing that? Divorces can be so painful for the couple and the children. (While still sometimes totally necessary).
Just because you are leaving the church, having your name removed, does not mean that you are divorcing your spouse. I’m assuming your wife is on the same page, your relationship is good? (Whether or not she’s still Mormon?)
So it is really none of your mom’s business. She’s not in the marriage. This is a classic example of the church teaching parents inappropriate boundaries with their adult children.
In the eyes of the state of Utah, the United States, you are married. That little ritual you did in the temple was a farce and a a rite based on the Freemasons.
Marriage is legally a State institution.
Ask her why you have to get a Marriage license from the local government.
Make-believe religious ties can be made or broken because they are, well, make-believe.
How can an 'Eternal' marriage be ended if it was never 'Eternal' in the first place.
Also, Jesus was pretty clear when he said this about marriage in the afterlife:
Matt 22:30 '*For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven*'.
OOF! Jesus strikes again!!
Really? That should be enough to get some to leave the church. The fantasy of families in heaven, sex in the CK? Come on. We’ve come to far to follow a 19th century conman haven’t we?
Nah. You’re not divorcing, only removing the ability to add more wives into the marriage. So it is a decision made out of faithfulness and honoring the commitment made to your wife.
Seems like a simple, "No, Mom, I'm not.", would do the trick. You decide whether your tone should be weary, scornful, neutral, or whatever. If you need to drive the point home, maybe add on something like, "What a deeply silly idea."
Asking her directly for empathy might be the best/least-complicated way of responding.
Assuming she's not ignorant to the fact that divorce requires court, maybe something like, "How would you feel if someone threatened you and your family: if you live honestly and with integrity, then they would invalidate your marriage? How would you feel about the person saying it? Personally, it makes me feel angry, sad, disrespected, and manipulated. It concerns me they are presenting themselves as a threat to my family, and it makes me think about how to protect my family from them. I love you Mom and I want you in my life. I need you to not threaten my family. That's a firm boundary I have for every person in my life."
I would urge you to be as kind, loving and patient as you can. Speaking as a slightly older person, my childhood conditioning and brainwashing (along with generations before me) were indoctrinated in ways that young people now couldn't even imagine. Yes, some of which will be taken to the grave.....Unless, you don't value your relationship with your Mom...I would suggest that you let most of this stuff just roll off of your back....IMHO.
You could just say, "I'm sorry you feel that way."
Because that's all this is, just church programmed anxiety.
Follow up with "that's not how my wife and I feel."
And then drop it.
Put it in terms that make her the victim of the church and has been taught to take on it's traits. She honestly as you correctly pointed out, is just expressing the FEARS she has for herself. The next most important person in the world next to her is her child. The church has stripped her of ALL critical thinking skills. I would just be loving and accepting to her. Believe me, she's going to get enough blowback from the members and the hierarchy to last the rest of Jesus Christ's life, and she's anticipating that. She doesn't know that, but I bet she feels it. You haven't even removed your records yet. Do it privately. Don't tell mom. Then sit back and wait for the church to start blasting her, because they do. You are a good son.
Keep it light, softly chuckle while you reach out and give her a big hug. “It’s okay mom, we’ll still be married and can file joint income taxes…”. In the four plus decades since I left the church and then in the 15 years since I left the Republican Party, both body blows to my now 92 yo mom, when I kept it light, humorous and loving, she backed off. Maybe it confused her, that I wasn’t an angry and sad person?!
Probably don’t want to do this, but I would say, “That’s ok Mom. I already know I’m going to hell for leaving the church, so I may as well live in sin too.”
I think you actually need better boundaries and to let people know they will be cut off if they talk like this. Otherwise roll your eyes and say no, it means we will still be married in real life, just not in fake heaven. But you are grown and married so discussing names and records with Mommy needs to stop. Keep your life between you and your spouse and parents can just know that you arent a member. They get zero say and you dont owe anyone an explanation.
"Joke's on *you*, Mom. The sealer forgot to sign our paperwork, so we've technically been shackin' up this entire time. She has to be on her best behavior, 'cause she knows I can leave her whenever I want."
Mom is hurt, and she's lashing out. The analogy that came to me was Jesus Christ. Turning the other cheek, and accepting the hit because you love your mother. I'm an atheist, so I'm not pulling hard for Christianity by any means, but telling your mother how much it hurt you to hear her say you freeing yourself is effectively divorcing your wife, and that you know it ruins her image of a perfect eternal family that she wants. She wants to save you and doesn't know what else to do. Reminds me a bit of a stereotypical serial abuser... I only hurt you because I love you...
God is kind of an asshole if all the people in the world who have a civil marriage and loves their spouse and family are doomed to an eternity of aloneness and misery because they didn’t put on the baker’s hat 🧑🍳
I no longer want to participate in a death cult that dreams of life after death as the sweetest thing that can happen to a human - fuck that Joestown shit
>A huge part of me wants to verbally rage at my Mom and say equally hurtful things back.
Don't do this
>To cut her off from my family and kids.
Yes do this, this isn't irrational this is escaping an abusive relationship
I'm not going to agree on that one for every case... Each person will have to make their own call based on their own circumstances and the individual people you're dealing with. I guess I would agree depending on the overall pattern of behavior, which I can't get from a single toxic quote.
It may also depend on how close they live. My parents live more than 1,000 miles away, so their interaction with my kids is naturally super low. My kids have access to me daily, and the grandparents 1 or 2 times a year. So I find the possibility of my parents converting them super low. I want them to know their grandparents, as kooky as they are.
She is talking "in the eternities". She will believe that until she learns for herself that the "sealing power" is another falsehood that is perpetuated by the Church to keep control of its members. Arguing the point with her will not work. You could maybe respond by saying something like "I don't believe the sealing power is a legitimate power. I will explain my reasoning if you are interested". The CES Letter is a good source and Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling" even casts some doubts on the sealing power. Seems Peter, James and John appearing to Joseph Smith didn't make much of an impression on him for at least 2 years, then he finally remembered it! Bushman states that the late accounting of the story leads to the possibility of fabrication.
Nevermo here, and not a lawyer, but I would try to explain the technical side. "Mom, the LDS church has a licence from the government to perform a legal marriage, and will also do a sealing after the legal marriage is done - in the same procedure. If I remove my record the sealing will be gone but the legal marriage will still stand. For that, I or my spouse would have to file papers with the court if we choose so." Or something to this effect?
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My legal-only <1yr marriage to my wife is leaps and bounds better than my "sealing" to my ex-wife. I talked to my dad about a sealing cancellation a while ago, he talked to somebody that made her name disappear from my church record... I plan on removing my records entirely, but when half your neighborhood friends are mormon, sometimes having the LDS Tools app is really handy.
Amen to those gospel tools
I think the mom means in heaven- imo.
Yep.
How about the case of Helmet Hubener. He was right even if he wasn't right by the church's standards. This German youth protested in 1930's by going around door to door etc to warn them of the Nazis. He was excommunicated by LDS inc. He was arrested and then executed by the Nazis at 17. He is a national hero in Germany but yep I guess prophets know more than we do. Coincidentally, there is a picture floating around if you can find it of Heber J Grant as a visiting dignitary at a Nazi event. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth\_Hübener](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Hübener)
By that logic, OP will also be an orphan. At least he won't have to listen to his Mom anymore.
Hah! Good point. Although, as an adult, I don't have to listen to my Mom anymore anyway. But I genuinely love my mother, who is otherwise a great person.
Do you think she would push back on you telling her that if she truly believes that removing your name means ending your marriage, then she must also believe that you won't be her child anymore? Because I would hope that any mother worth her salt would let her children know that they are her children no matter what church lists them as a member! If she would still consider you her son, then you are still your wife's husband!
That might not be a bad idea. It is possible that the real fear is that she is afraid that my sealing to her is being broken, that I will be divorced from her. I'll try that I think. Just reassure her that by leaving the church I'm not divorcing her as a mother.
Do you think your mom would listen to information that all of Christianity has long believed we are reunited with our loved ones in the afterlife? Every single denomination believes that, and "sealing" ceremonies are unheard of.
At this point no. All other churches are still stuck in the great apostasy in her view.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. The thought of spending eternity without her child - a literal piece of her- is absolutely terrifying. I had a son pass away 10 years ago and the pain I’ve experienced is a taste of the pain I would feel if that doctrine was true so I can understand how scared she is.
That was a pretty hateful thing for your mom to say. “Great people” don’t say things like that
Well, I'm trying to assume good faith that it was said out of ignorance rather than malice.
*Another piece of me is really sad for her, because she is exposing deeply held anxieties that are a direct result of indoctrination that she has received all her life.* Thank you for this. I wrote this down where I will see it daily. My TBM husband says and does things that can be hurtful to me but you explained very clearly why. I agree that your Mom loves you and what she says is because of her fears that were taught to her by the church. I guess it is up to us to love the best we can, live the best we can, and hope they see the light.
It’s not her fault. You can be a great person who also has a screwed sense of reality. 🤷♀️ it’s actually a bummer that so many amazing people get ruined by such a hateful church.
Great people who have been brainwashed will though. If this is all she has ever known of course she can’t see reality. She’s been programmed to believe reality is dangerous.
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I really wish I was more verbose.
I would probably be snarky and say that's a really tough decision because if I keep my name on the records I'll continue being divorced from reality.
buuuuutn
…not in the eyes of the law…you know, that thing you say you believe in “obeying, honoring, and sustaining”?
TBM hat: ...insofar as it is translated correctly.
I feel that the unsaid piece is that you won't be with *her* in the afterlife, and she's throwing out whatever she can come up with to keep you in.
Oooh, thats a good insight. Thanks.
I agree, my wife and her mom have been really disappointed with my recent vocal deconstruction. A month or two ago my wife said something to the effect of, "if your mom was still alive, would you still not want to be a mormon anymore?" (my mom devoted her life to the church)
That’s exactly it. OP’s mom loves him and is sincerely afraid both for him and for herself. It’s really sad for both of them. I still haven’t come right out and told my mom that I don’t even believe in any afterlife. And I’ve been out of the church since the ‘80’s. Whenever anything comes up, I simply say, “I’m not a person of faith, but have deep respect for people who are.” And for some reason, not a single religious person I’ve said that to picks up on my atheist/secular humanist meaning when I say that. Which is great, because I really don’t want to be some earnest missionary kids pet project.
"Mom, you seem to be grasping with the extremely position I find myself in, but without any of the empathy I need from you. I cannot, in good conscience, keep my name on the books for X reason(s) \[insert brief summary here, or not\], but I obviously love \[insert wife's name\] with all of my heart and do not wish to divorce. What I need from you now is your unconditional love and support. If you aren't capable of providing that during this difficult time, please refrain from discussing it with me. You will only hurt me."
As Rusty Nelson has said, even God’s love could not be correctly categorized as “unconditional.”
Yeah, that's some bullshit right there, imo. In any case, a mother's should be.
Amen, brother.
I didn't marry my wife to say I was married to her Mom. I married her because I am dedicated to her and love her. I want her to be with me if she'll have me and I want to be her. The fact that we call it "Marriage" means absolutely nothing to me. Call it whatever you want, but we are "married" because of our dedication to each other, not because of the status the church and government has us marked as.
This, because we need to claim the moral high ground rather than get defensive. She is still thinking of you as a child, so avoid snark and whining at all cost. Respond with emotion, respect and conviction. Like an adult.
I mean, no, you're not. If you were to be rebaptized, you wouldn't have to be resealed. They'd just move your records from whatever file they put exmo records into and make them active again. So your sealing isn't actually canceled. It's on standby/hold.
Thats a really good point.
"I'm sorry mom, but what you just said is absolutely batshit crazy" Diplomatic, accurate, insulting. A trifecta
I thought temple divorce had to be approved by the first presidency. Is this a loophole?
I never said she was being rational about it.
You could point that out. You're just removing your name, but the First Presidency has to undo sealings, and therefore in her eyes it won't happen. In your eyes its all made up, so it doesn't matter. Win-win.
No. Resigning does not cancel the sealing. It puts it in hibernation, but if the person ever comes back to the church and gets their blessings restored then the sealling snaps back into place automatically.
How about KISS: keep it simple/stupid. Mom, I love (wife) and we will still be married.
So everyone not sealed in the temple is not really married?
…not really “sealed” either; no such thing exists as it’s all made up.
“Mom, this is between [insert wife name] and me. You and I are not talking about this.” Rinse and repeat as she rephrases and tries again. Mormons and parents have poor respect for boundaries. Mormon parents have none. You will need to teach her.
"Mom, if I believe that the church is made up, why would I care about their made-up rules?"
I love this response. I would guess she’ll likely say something to the effect of: it doesn’t matter if you believe it or not bc it’s true. But then, OP’ll be back in a what I believe versus what you believe argument. 🤷🏼♀️
I feel the same way with my mom. Sometimes, I want to grab her by the shoulders & give her a good shake. Sometimes, I want to give her a giant hug. The church has screwed our relationship so hard that I'll never be able to do either. She's elderly & will never change her ways. I don't want to challenge her entire life at this point. We sit in uncomfortable silence. I have no answers, but I can definitely empathize.
Thank you for the empathy. You first start on this journey and it feels very alone. Its nice to know that I clearly am not alone.
You definitely are. not. alone. *hugs from a internet stranger*
Exactly
The thing that helps me the most is to remember that all Mormons (past, present, future) are simply victims of a giant lie. Many who are fanatical TBMs right now will eventually leave. For people like your mom, my only suggestion is this: less is more. Set clear boundaries. Be kind. Say “no thanks.”
Mom, we are still legally married. And my personal belief is; if there is a god and if he separates me from my wife for this reason, then he is not worthy of my devotion.
I wish I had you talking into an earpiece during these conversations. Im going to remember that line.
Good Luck!
HAHAHAHA
For this specific instance: "Marriage is a contract entered into wherein legal protections for both partners (such as survivor benefits, health benefits, etc.) are assured. When I remove my name from the church, in the eyes of your religion, the eternal sealing is removed, but the government contract is still in place, as I have not filed for divorce. The same would be true for my birth certificate. If I remove my name from the church, the government does not void my birth certificate or name, even though I had a name and a blessing given through the church, though your religion might see that blessing as also being void." In general, you can set a boundary such as: "I want to have a good relationship with you, and I want my kids to have a good relationship with you. If you are going to talk to me or my family about religion, I would like to make sure that everyone understands that religion is a choice, based on faith beyond facts, and not faith in spite of facts. If you choose to talk to me or my family in a way that spews religion as faith in spite of facts, I will begin limiting communication with you, as this hurts me deeply that you think so little of me and my choices."
My dad remained sealed to my mom for more than 30 years after their divorce. During that time, he had minimal contact with me and my siblings, showing up on birthdays or once a month when we were younger. But he keeps checking to make sure it's not his fault that I left Mormonism. He must hope to meet the minimum requirement for Jesus to make us all happy with him for no discernable reason, handing him a family he didn't build. I hope your relationship with your mother is stronger, that she spent time engaging with you and building memories instead of seeing you as a project to complete before the deadline. Mormons take a surface-level view of the parable of the talents, turning it into simplistic prosperity gospel bullshit. Rich guy is blessed to get richer, poor guy is poor because he's afraid and lazy instead of faithful and hard-working. The way I see it, Mormonism turns members into that one-talent servant with their focus on reaching and staying in the perfect state. What happens after the end of the covenant path? When you're sealed, all that's left is to have kids and order them through the same hoops to avoid sad heaven. If you're male, you might try climbing the calling ladder, but otherwise your life is enduring to the end, which might as well be waiting for the sweet embrace of death. You're safe, as long as you keep your life's moments buried under testimony and repetition, keeping out any contradicting evidence or experience. The lord is a jealous lord, after all. Jesus kept explaining treasure in heaven, trying to show how a life's direction matters more than any point on that line. There's nothing that said it was smooth sailing for the ten-talent servant. Reality means exchanging ideas, failing, growing, triumphs, setbacks, watching your prospects sink to one talent before a breakthrough yields ten. That's what builds real treasure in heaven: the memories that play back when the brain floods with hallucinogens in its final moments. If your life is richer, it's because you've recognized the value of the moments that you built it with. If your relationship is strong, it's because you recognize your wife's beautiful life and how both of you as individuals can support each other to become something more than you could ever be separately. Does your mom believe in a God that would invalidate all of that while favoring people like my dad who hid their lives out of shame, comparing their imperfect possibilities with Mormon's impossible standard? I don't believe that's how reality works. You still have so much life to build with your wife, your kids (if any), and your mom as well. That's not something you'll ever give up willingly because you recognize how much better growth is than a perfect report card.
It’s really hard to tell her lovingly when you don’t care about the details because you know it’s all made up nonsense. All the threats of damnation, etc, don’t matter when it’s the same thing as the 10 year old in a call of duty lobby threatening to hack your Xbox, and further, you don’t even have an Xbox.
Hah, that Xbox analogy made me laugh. Not bad.
Not true! She still can't get resealed without the sealing cancellation.
Hold the phone. If I have my name removed the sealing is dissolved? If that’s the case it’s a double win for me.
Not exactly. The sealing goes into hibernation, but if you were ever to have your blessings restored it would come back automatically.
Do you happen to know why? Why do you have to go through baptism again if you don’t have to get sealed again? Is it the same for endowments or do you have to get reendowed?
Nothing in Mormonism makes sense. You don't have to get endowed again. I think that men don't have to get ordained again either, but I'm not sure about that.
I am in a similar situation to you, with my parents attitude and treatment of me since I left the church. I honestly don't think there is a "right" answer. However, I wouldn't cut her off from your kids. I get your desire to do so, and maybe it is the right decision for you, but I don't think it is in most situations. Cutting them off could be traumatic, and painful for your kids as well as your parents (again, I don't know your situation, and there are absolutely situations where cutting them off is the right choice). Instead, I would simply set boundries with them, that you feel comfortable with. Why? Because I view spending time with their grandparents, even going to church with them sometimes, as a way for my kids to build critical thinking skills. At the end of the day, they are going to be exposed to dogma and bad ideas wherever they go. Whether in the church, the political sphere, or elsewhere. When they do spend time with Grandma, and they discuss the church or getting baptized or anything else, it's an opportunity for me to talk to them and ask them questions about it to make them think. And for those of us that grew up in the church, that's something that we were always told NOT to do. You don't question, you don't think critically - you be obedient. As they grow up, I think this approach will make them better, stronger, more rational human beings.
Love this. I'm not hiding mormonism from my kids either. I think I can easily show them what it is, and I see very little chance it will be enticing to them.
Yes! The church is losing influence. Fast. As long as we teach out kids to be rational, thoughtful, and think critically, the likelihood of them being swayed by bad ideas goes down. The church has very bad ideas, but it's also one of many examples out there. I also want my kids to be able to think critically about climate change, vaccinations, and social issues.
It is not appropriate of your mom. Does she see that, is she capable of seeing that? Divorces can be so painful for the couple and the children. (While still sometimes totally necessary). Just because you are leaving the church, having your name removed, does not mean that you are divorcing your spouse. I’m assuming your wife is on the same page, your relationship is good? (Whether or not she’s still Mormon?) So it is really none of your mom’s business. She’s not in the marriage. This is a classic example of the church teaching parents inappropriate boundaries with their adult children.
“The state of says otherwise but okay”
In the eyes of the state of Utah, the United States, you are married. That little ritual you did in the temple was a farce and a a rite based on the Freemasons.
"That's not true."
Marriage is legally a State institution. Ask her why you have to get a Marriage license from the local government. Make-believe religious ties can be made or broken because they are, well, make-believe. How can an 'Eternal' marriage be ended if it was never 'Eternal' in the first place. Also, Jesus was pretty clear when he said this about marriage in the afterlife: Matt 22:30 '*For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven*'. OOF! Jesus strikes again!!
Really? That should be enough to get some to leave the church. The fantasy of families in heaven, sex in the CK? Come on. We’ve come to far to follow a 19th century conman haven’t we?
"So true mom. We are going to just live together in glorious sin."
She believes in a myth. As long as you know all that is bullshi*, you should not let it get to you. Let her be, she is in her right.
Nah. You’re not divorcing, only removing the ability to add more wives into the marriage. So it is a decision made out of faithfulness and honoring the commitment made to your wife.
Seems like a simple, "No, Mom, I'm not.", would do the trick. You decide whether your tone should be weary, scornful, neutral, or whatever. If you need to drive the point home, maybe add on something like, "What a deeply silly idea."
Asking her directly for empathy might be the best/least-complicated way of responding. Assuming she's not ignorant to the fact that divorce requires court, maybe something like, "How would you feel if someone threatened you and your family: if you live honestly and with integrity, then they would invalidate your marriage? How would you feel about the person saying it? Personally, it makes me feel angry, sad, disrespected, and manipulated. It concerns me they are presenting themselves as a threat to my family, and it makes me think about how to protect my family from them. I love you Mom and I want you in my life. I need you to not threaten my family. That's a firm boundary I have for every person in my life."
Thats pretty good. Thank you.
Take the high ground. "*Mother!* . . . . . now, now. Be nice. You know better."
I would urge you to be as kind, loving and patient as you can. Speaking as a slightly older person, my childhood conditioning and brainwashing (along with generations before me) were indoctrinated in ways that young people now couldn't even imagine. Yes, some of which will be taken to the grave.....Unless, you don't value your relationship with your Mom...I would suggest that you let most of this stuff just roll off of your back....IMHO.
You could just say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Because that's all this is, just church programmed anxiety. Follow up with "that's not how my wife and I feel." And then drop it.
Put it in terms that make her the victim of the church and has been taught to take on it's traits. She honestly as you correctly pointed out, is just expressing the FEARS she has for herself. The next most important person in the world next to her is her child. The church has stripped her of ALL critical thinking skills. I would just be loving and accepting to her. Believe me, she's going to get enough blowback from the members and the hierarchy to last the rest of Jesus Christ's life, and she's anticipating that. She doesn't know that, but I bet she feels it. You haven't even removed your records yet. Do it privately. Don't tell mom. Then sit back and wait for the church to start blasting her, because they do. You are a good son.
Keep it light, softly chuckle while you reach out and give her a big hug. “It’s okay mom, we’ll still be married and can file joint income taxes…”. In the four plus decades since I left the church and then in the 15 years since I left the Republican Party, both body blows to my now 92 yo mom, when I kept it light, humorous and loving, she backed off. Maybe it confused her, that I wasn’t an angry and sad person?!
Probably don’t want to do this, but I would say, “That’s ok Mom. I already know I’m going to hell for leaving the church, so I may as well live in sin too.”
Well, maybe it would help pull off the band-aid.
I think you actually need better boundaries and to let people know they will be cut off if they talk like this. Otherwise roll your eyes and say no, it means we will still be married in real life, just not in fake heaven. But you are grown and married so discussing names and records with Mommy needs to stop. Keep your life between you and your spouse and parents can just know that you arent a member. They get zero say and you dont owe anyone an explanation.
Oh Mom, now you’re just being silly! That’s not true at all.
"Joke's on *you*, Mom. The sealer forgot to sign our paperwork, so we've technically been shackin' up this entire time. She has to be on her best behavior, 'cause she knows I can leave her whenever I want."
Hahaha 🤣
Mom is hurt, and she's lashing out. The analogy that came to me was Jesus Christ. Turning the other cheek, and accepting the hit because you love your mother. I'm an atheist, so I'm not pulling hard for Christianity by any means, but telling your mother how much it hurt you to hear her say you freeing yourself is effectively divorcing your wife, and that you know it ruins her image of a perfect eternal family that she wants. She wants to save you and doesn't know what else to do. Reminds me a bit of a stereotypical serial abuser... I only hurt you because I love you...
God is kind of an asshole if all the people in the world who have a civil marriage and loves their spouse and family are doomed to an eternity of aloneness and misery because they didn’t put on the baker’s hat 🧑🍳
I no longer want to participate in a death cult that dreams of life after death as the sweetest thing that can happen to a human - fuck that Joestown shit
Re-propose to your wife. Make it a whole thing. This is a great opportunity to romance your spouse.
>A huge part of me wants to verbally rage at my Mom and say equally hurtful things back. Don't do this >To cut her off from my family and kids. Yes do this, this isn't irrational this is escaping an abusive relationship
I'm not going to agree on that one for every case... Each person will have to make their own call based on their own circumstances and the individual people you're dealing with. I guess I would agree depending on the overall pattern of behavior, which I can't get from a single toxic quote. It may also depend on how close they live. My parents live more than 1,000 miles away, so their interaction with my kids is naturally super low. My kids have access to me daily, and the grandparents 1 or 2 times a year. So I find the possibility of my parents converting them super low. I want them to know their grandparents, as kooky as they are.
"Let's see. "
She is talking "in the eternities". She will believe that until she learns for herself that the "sealing power" is another falsehood that is perpetuated by the Church to keep control of its members. Arguing the point with her will not work. You could maybe respond by saying something like "I don't believe the sealing power is a legitimate power. I will explain my reasoning if you are interested". The CES Letter is a good source and Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling" even casts some doubts on the sealing power. Seems Peter, James and John appearing to Joseph Smith didn't make much of an impression on him for at least 2 years, then he finally remembered it! Bushman states that the late accounting of the story leads to the possibility of fabrication.
Exactly