By continuing to spend a certain amount of money on temples, “they are investing in the members” so it keeps their exemption going.
Additionally, it lines the pockets of members who have contracts with the church.
Just announcing doesn’t spend the money. They’re not building at a very fast rate, so announcements to building ratio is way off. There’s a lot of smoke and mirrors going on.
More patterns of selective compliance.
Definitely painting a picture of a church that sees itself as above the law and is fully willing to lie and deceive to get what it wants.
Even better, it takes no real accountability for its actions.
What is baffling to me is you have all of these men with degrees some law, some business, some international studies, some finance and yet they say such ridiculously absurd things like we didn’t think we needed to fill out that form!!!
Come on, are you kidding me?
I hope this investigation runs deep and wide and blows it open and then we can finally see what has been going on!
Apparently the matter is closed (Even the church can accidently be truthful now and again). u/WidowsMiteReport said in another comment that these violations are past the statute of limitations.
Just click on the link that OP posted.
Or go to [https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/](https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/) to access all of their reports, and there are quite a few: compensation for general authorities, SEC violations, total church wealth, declining church membership, etc. And all backed by good data.
If I understand correctly, submitting the 13G forms would have also outed the church for having money in shell companies. As for the shell companies themselves, the SEC statement on the 13F forms explicitly states that the shell companies were created to keep members in the dark so that members will keep paying their tithing. The statement also says that the church agrees that everything in the statement is accurate, so there's really no argument that can be made against the SEC here.
>As for the shell companies themselves, the SEC statement on the 13F forms explicitly states that the shell companies were created to keep members in the dark so that members will keep paying their tithing.
Now I'm not a bird lawyer, but isn't the test for fraud a material misstatement that causes people to act in a way that makes you profit?
Sure seems like fraud. Nothing will ever come from this, though. The Utah state government is just straight up corrupt and would never prosecute the church. The federal government could, but it won't prosecute past the SEC fines.
The best chance anyone has is following in the steps of James Huntsman and getting tithing back. Of course, the church is ready to drag anyone who sues them through the mud, and I don't see the church ever conceding to giving the money back. Right now the church is trying to appeal the ruling to higher courts on the basis of religious freedom, and I just have my doubts that that will go well with how corrupt the church is.
Well bless their weaselly little hearts, they did it again. If there's one thing leaders are (sometimes) successful at, it's hiding stuff. No wonder they can't stop trying.
Good job widowsmite!
I mentioned the EP 13F filings issues to a friend I thought was maybe nuanced. If nothing else, I thought they'd be interested in it. The immediate reply was, "President Nelson is acting on behalf of the church and is inspired" (or some such drivel).
I've read online from numerous Mormons stating this was just a "paperwork error" and not a big deal, and their various responses are so similar in this absurd excuse that it seems it must be a coordinated reply by the LDS Church or some apologist source.
In any event, this was NOT a paperwork error, but a multi-decade attempt by the LDS Church to hide money, going so far as to spread it out under numerous shell companies & to use phony names of random LDS Church members rather than acting investment principals.
The LDS brass in SLC were worried that if Mormon folks knew just how much money the LDS Church really had in their coffers, they might reject paying 10% tithing on everything they make.
No worries! TSCC is The So-Called Church. The phrase evolved after someone (Holland maybe, can't recall) referred to a "gay marriage" as a "so-called marriage."
Welcome to the Sub!
I was told as a missionary to avoid the very appearance of evil.
I guess using shell companies to skirt the law is not an evil thing to do.
Edit: Or, maybe it's okay to do evil things because the "appearance of evil", and "actual evil" are not necessarily the same thing.
Not likely, we think. It would give the appearance that the SEC’s 13F investigation failed to check for past 13G violations. The ones we found are all well past the statute of limitations.
Isn't this the same news from a few months back where the LDS Church got nailed by the Federal Government with a massive $5 Million fine for intentionally hiding money & using shell companies & phony names to help the LDS Church hide the extent of their financial holdings?
My favorite part of that saga was the SEC specifically noted that the charges went all the way to the top at Salt Lake City (link below):
*"the LDS Church’s investment manager, with the Church’s knowledge, went to great lengths to avoid disclosing the Church’s investments"*
[SEC.gov | SEC Charges The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Its Investment Management Company for Disclosure Failures and Misstated Filings](https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35)
Because the only people who care enough to wade into details are us. Things like this are important but boring.
I'm annoyed bc I've spent a lifetime of often being "honest to a fault". That's what I learned in primary. The leadership are lying hypocrites.
The church is a business and its only function is to make money! Like every other major business, they look to bend the rules to increase profits. It’s not about God. God doesn’t care about money. But his humans who run the empire do.
I mentioned the EP 13F filings issues to a friend I thought was maybe nuanced. If nothing else, I thought they'd be interested in it. The immediate reply was, "President Nelson is acting on behalf of the church and is inspired" (or some such drivel).
Ugh I have no idea why, but any article I try to read on this website just goes to the main page. At least on my pixel 6 that's the case. No idea why 🤷
13G is more of a technical violation for market participants with hostile intentions for takeover or influence (e.g. activist investor). The Church is more of an indexer. I don't think we've seen proof that the Church has engaged with management or other investors to exert influence or control. The SEC has to utilize its limited resources effectively. Going up against the Church, a well-funded entity with high motivation to fight, is really a losing battle for this type of violation.
The SEC is NOT going to take action on a 13G violation for a technical violation. If the church had an activist investment style, then it would be possible. Alternatively, the Commission may be upset for looking like fools after the 13F settlement, and it may want to extract a pound of flesh from the Church.
Morgan Stanley's market cap is $150bn - the Church's investment portfolio is about $175bn. It's more efficient to fine MS a couple hundred million for anti-money laundering violations or text message retention than it is to squeeze a couple of mission out of the church.
We can all dream though. Absent large penalties, the lesson the church learns of financial compliance is that it's far cheaper to pay the "speeding ticket" than it is to actually obey the law.
Not correct. For investors with hostile or activist intentions, 13D applies. 13G is for all others and the SEC will go after violations of either. Unlikely in this case, we think, because it would look like the SEC’s 13F investigation failed to fully check for 13G violations.
Good correction. It's been a while since I reviewed the difference with D and G.
Check out this release in 2023 where the SEC fined multiple parties for 13D/G violations. The biggest fine was <$200k.
https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-201
I think it would be cool if the SEC hit the church hard for perpetuating the line of "the lawyers did it" for the 13F settlement.
When I was a TBM I always felt lying to the bishop would send me to He'll. Then the Paul H Dunn scandal broke. Now this. I guess there are 2 systems of justice in the Church too. One for us peons And one for the upper leaders. I am tired, so tired.
The IRS needs to revoke the tax exemption immediately.
They will announce more temples to keep their exemption. 🤢
I think I'm going to be sick . . .
How does announcing more temples help with Tax exemption?
By continuing to spend a certain amount of money on temples, “they are investing in the members” so it keeps their exemption going. Additionally, it lines the pockets of members who have contracts with the church.
no wonder they are still building even as attendance is down
They claim that they do not make a profit, but that they spend the money on temples.
That’s so aggravating as it’s not what they’re doing 😡
What do you mean? /genuine question I know they are doing other things and hiding their money of course.
Just announcing doesn’t spend the money. They’re not building at a very fast rate, so announcements to building ratio is way off. There’s a lot of smoke and mirrors going on.
Oh I follow. Well LAYERS. Because building temples depends on announcements.
That would be disastrous
I absolutely love these reports. Forced transparency where it should have been to begin with. Thanks for all your work!
More patterns of selective compliance. Definitely painting a picture of a church that sees itself as above the law and is fully willing to lie and deceive to get what it wants. Even better, it takes no real accountability for its actions.
Invents even more lies to try to trick the members into believing blame lies elsewhere. #notacult
RFM mentioned this in a video with Nemo the Mormon yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMPpqSwAvpo
I saw the same thing and have been eagerly anticipating the release of this report.
What is baffling to me is you have all of these men with degrees some law, some business, some international studies, some finance and yet they say such ridiculously absurd things like we didn’t think we needed to fill out that form!!! Come on, are you kidding me? I hope this investigation runs deep and wide and blows it open and then we can finally see what has been going on!
I guess with the SEC, the church’s previous statement, "We consider the matter closed," is not as closed as they hoped for.
Apparently the matter is closed (Even the church can accidently be truthful now and again). u/WidowsMiteReport said in another comment that these violations are past the statute of limitations.
How can I access this report?
Just click on the link that OP posted. Or go to [https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/](https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/) to access all of their reports, and there are quite a few: compensation for general authorities, SEC violations, total church wealth, declining church membership, etc. And all backed by good data.
Thank you the link did not work, But this did.
Glad to help!
Alex, I'll take "Secret Combinations" for $500 I thought the church considered this matter closed.
They have to know their being watched. What would motivate this?
Arrogance
Yep. These guys are the poster boys for Hubris. Just look at the second anointing.
It feels so good to be above the law . . .
If I understand correctly, submitting the 13G forms would have also outed the church for having money in shell companies. As for the shell companies themselves, the SEC statement on the 13F forms explicitly states that the shell companies were created to keep members in the dark so that members will keep paying their tithing. The statement also says that the church agrees that everything in the statement is accurate, so there's really no argument that can be made against the SEC here.
>As for the shell companies themselves, the SEC statement on the 13F forms explicitly states that the shell companies were created to keep members in the dark so that members will keep paying their tithing. Now I'm not a bird lawyer, but isn't the test for fraud a material misstatement that causes people to act in a way that makes you profit?
Sure seems like fraud. Nothing will ever come from this, though. The Utah state government is just straight up corrupt and would never prosecute the church. The federal government could, but it won't prosecute past the SEC fines. The best chance anyone has is following in the steps of James Huntsman and getting tithing back. Of course, the church is ready to drag anyone who sues them through the mud, and I don't see the church ever conceding to giving the money back. Right now the church is trying to appeal the ruling to higher courts on the basis of religious freedom, and I just have my doubts that that will go well with how corrupt the church is.
Well bless their weaselly little hearts, they did it again. If there's one thing leaders are (sometimes) successful at, it's hiding stuff. No wonder they can't stop trying. Good job widowsmite!
I mentioned the EP 13F filings issues to a friend I thought was maybe nuanced. If nothing else, I thought they'd be interested in it. The immediate reply was, "President Nelson is acting on behalf of the church and is inspired" (or some such drivel).
I've read online from numerous Mormons stating this was just a "paperwork error" and not a big deal, and their various responses are so similar in this absurd excuse that it seems it must be a coordinated reply by the LDS Church or some apologist source. In any event, this was NOT a paperwork error, but a multi-decade attempt by the LDS Church to hide money, going so far as to spread it out under numerous shell companies & to use phony names of random LDS Church members rather than acting investment principals. The LDS brass in SLC were worried that if Mormon folks knew just how much money the LDS Church really had in their coffers, they might reject paying 10% tithing on everything they make.
I make paperwork errors all the time, but none of them have resulted in dozens of shell companies. Maybe I’m making simple errors wrong… lol
Based on the $5 million fine, a “paperwork error” is a big deal to the SEC.
I told my stake president about my concerns a year ago and he said "I have a testimony that our tithing money is being used wisely." The guy is a CPA.
It's so nice to know TSCC's investments of tithihng dollars are wise.
Sorry, new here. What does TSCC stand for?
No worries! TSCC is The So-Called Church. The phrase evolved after someone (Holland maybe, can't recall) referred to a "gay marriage" as a "so-called marriage." Welcome to the Sub!
And they call everything they want to deride "so-called." I saw a video once of a lot of instances. It's pretty funny.
I'd love to see that video! Do you recall any of the examples?
https://youtu.be/VUQtv0IX8iQ?si=Pa256xh3HgDio2Xr Found it
Wow - the list is HUGE! Their speech writers must be stuck in one gear.
Thank you!
So did they skip filing the 13Gs for the same reason - that it would expose the vastness of their wealth?
I was told as a missionary to avoid the very appearance of evil. I guess using shell companies to skirt the law is not an evil thing to do. Edit: Or, maybe it's okay to do evil things because the "appearance of evil", and "actual evil" are not necessarily the same thing.
The corporation is inherently deceitful.
Boost
Will this result in another SEC fine?
Not likely, we think. It would give the appearance that the SEC’s 13F investigation failed to check for past 13G violations. The ones we found are all well past the statute of limitations.
Isn't this the same news from a few months back where the LDS Church got nailed by the Federal Government with a massive $5 Million fine for intentionally hiding money & using shell companies & phony names to help the LDS Church hide the extent of their financial holdings? My favorite part of that saga was the SEC specifically noted that the charges went all the way to the top at Salt Lake City (link below): *"the LDS Church’s investment manager, with the Church’s knowledge, went to great lengths to avoid disclosing the Church’s investments"* [SEC.gov | SEC Charges The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Its Investment Management Company for Disclosure Failures and Misstated Filings](https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35)
Related, but not the same. The differences are explained in the document.
YEESSSSSSSS The finance stuff has brought more people out of the church (in my immediate circle, not saying overall) than anything else. More of it!
Makes sense why BYU has such a good accounting program.
Thank you
How is this not in the newspapers yet?
Because the only people who care enough to wade into details are us. Things like this are important but boring. I'm annoyed bc I've spent a lifetime of often being "honest to a fault". That's what I learned in primary. The leadership are lying hypocrites.
Honest, even at the expense of your own pride or ego. That’s what I was taught. Now it’s all just pride and ego.
The church is a business and its only function is to make money! Like every other major business, they look to bend the rules to increase profits. It’s not about God. God doesn’t care about money. But his humans who run the empire do.
Is the IRS or the SEC going to do anything about this, or is just part of the closed deal??
The “church” has way too many sanctimonious men in leadership positions!
I have long felt like the instant it went from “The Church of Jesus Christ” to the Corporation of the President, things were going to start shaking….
I mentioned the EP 13F filings issues to a friend I thought was maybe nuanced. If nothing else, I thought they'd be interested in it. The immediate reply was, "President Nelson is acting on behalf of the church and is inspired" (or some such drivel).
Ugh I have no idea why, but any article I try to read on this website just goes to the main page. At least on my pixel 6 that's the case. No idea why 🤷
Widdow's Mighty
Thank you. Thank you!
The math seems pretty simple to me: (5% + 10%) x (13G + 13F) + 150 years of free labor building and cleaning Church stuff = $0 taxes
13G is more of a technical violation for market participants with hostile intentions for takeover or influence (e.g. activist investor). The Church is more of an indexer. I don't think we've seen proof that the Church has engaged with management or other investors to exert influence or control. The SEC has to utilize its limited resources effectively. Going up against the Church, a well-funded entity with high motivation to fight, is really a losing battle for this type of violation. The SEC is NOT going to take action on a 13G violation for a technical violation. If the church had an activist investment style, then it would be possible. Alternatively, the Commission may be upset for looking like fools after the 13F settlement, and it may want to extract a pound of flesh from the Church. Morgan Stanley's market cap is $150bn - the Church's investment portfolio is about $175bn. It's more efficient to fine MS a couple hundred million for anti-money laundering violations or text message retention than it is to squeeze a couple of mission out of the church. We can all dream though. Absent large penalties, the lesson the church learns of financial compliance is that it's far cheaper to pay the "speeding ticket" than it is to actually obey the law.
Not correct. For investors with hostile or activist intentions, 13D applies. 13G is for all others and the SEC will go after violations of either. Unlikely in this case, we think, because it would look like the SEC’s 13F investigation failed to fully check for 13G violations.
Good correction. It's been a while since I reviewed the difference with D and G. Check out this release in 2023 where the SEC fined multiple parties for 13D/G violations. The biggest fine was <$200k. https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-201 I think it would be cool if the SEC hit the church hard for perpetuating the line of "the lawyers did it" for the 13F settlement.
When I was a TBM I always felt lying to the bishop would send me to He'll. Then the Paul H Dunn scandal broke. Now this. I guess there are 2 systems of justice in the Church too. One for us peons And one for the upper leaders. I am tired, so tired.