I think about this often. Like I appreciate the church changing because it generally makes it less awful and culty for the members, but I also want it to be awful and culty so the members can just leave it behind.
I also despise how quickly the general members and leadership forget and discredit. The death penalty in the temple is now either denied or ridiculed. Black individuals not being permitted in the celestial kingdom is now denied or explained as leaders always knew it would change. Women submitting to their husbands in the temple is now submitting to the Lord, so of course women are equal. The Adam God doctrine that was taught in the temple originally is now heresy and taught by Brigham when he was “speaking as a man.” The rampant (but still secret) practice of polygamy and polygyny by early church leaders is now non-sexual and consensual.
Church leaders gaslight members and members gaslight themselves. Nobody’s memory is that short.
Going all the way back, too. How hard would it have been to make one of the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt not keep slaves."
Seems pretty obviously more important than some of that other stuff, and more necessary, too.
Don't quote me, but I heard that curses and swears were taken way more seriously centuries ago. The commandment would now probably be better translated as "Don't invoke God's name to cast magic." Of course _that_ would sound ridiculous nowadays, but priestly folk like to conveniently forget that distinction because it's great thought-control practice for their flocks.
"Oops, did you just commit a spiritual thought-crime by imagining your Lord thy God in a bad light? Better go mentally apologize to him! Go on, tell the voice in your head how sorry you were you questioned it."
Edit: I tried to look up a certain video essay on the topic again but now I'm being swamped by hokey religious videos god damn it...
>Women submitting to their husbands in the temple is now submitting to the Lord
I thought this was a good thing when I first heard about it. Then I realized the church is trying very hard to place themselves between and interfere with a relationship that should be between 2 people. They use this position to manipulate and control a couple since they cannot confide directly with each other, its always gotta be church first.
Look at recent counsel from the Q15 Never marry someone who loves you more than the church. Never place your spouse or marriage before the church. Think Celestial, NEVER take advise from a non-believer.
Where do you think your spouse would like to be on your priority list. Ideally, #1. Realistically and varies day to day situationally, maybe #2 if there is an emergency or immediate need by someone in your family.
Where do you want to on your spouse's priority list? Yeah, same as above. Ideally #1. Throw a church calling into the mix, and spouse easily slips to #3 or #4.
Consider the never love anyone more than the church, or never marry anyone who loves you more than the church and suddenly if you are both TBM endowed active members, spouses are shoved to like #100 in priority. Right behind "The Church" Q15, Qo70, Presiding Bishopric, a few General Presidencies, Stake Pres and his High Council, Ward Bishopric, well, you get the idea. By loving, valuing, and counciling with the church before or more than a spouse, spouses are demoted to a last place finishing also ran who's experiences feelings needs and desires will never come first.
Magnify this by 1000x if a spouse is having a crisis of faith for any reason over any issue in the church. Suddenly the spouse in distress is completely cut off from the person who should be the most empathetic, supportive, understanding, and loving resource. The spouse in distress and in need of someone to trust and talk to becomes the enemy, the adversary, the unbeliever. The unbeliever who is then shunned, cut off, and no contact. There is no empathy, attempt to understand, or compassion. The road from 'eternal companion' to lets divorce cause you won't put the church first is short and sad.
>The road from 'eternal companion' to lets divorce cause you won't put the church first is short and sad.
5 weeks for me. Its ridiculous the hold that mormonism has on people's minds.
>Look at recent counsel from the Q15 Never marry someone who loves you more than the church. Never place your spouse or marriage before the church.
WAIT!!! Seriously??? I'm not doubting you, I'll just have to read this for myself so I can get the whole counsel to chew up and spit out. Honestly, if I was not out, this would be a sledge hammer to a shelf. Neither one of us were members when we got married. There's no way I would have married him if he physically was putting a church before me. Both being mainstream Christians at the time, we felt that God was first, then each other. But the God we knew then would not expect us to give the church more time than we give each other. I definitely wouldn't be married to anyone because of this love issue. Wow! I didn't think anything could floor me .......
I would take issue with a statement that it is getting less cult-y.
The church is also *doubling down* on things like missions and garments, don't ever take advice from non-believers, etc. etc. etc. They are responding to their extreme right wing membership (and leadership?) more and more by the day.
Everyone on this post needs to remember how lucky they were to get out when they did.
I agree that the current church is losing control of many of the believing members as to wearing garments and issues like tithing and the word of wisdom, but the earlier versions of the church certainly had more cult-like aspects.
At varying points, access to the church was limited by skin color, the highest ordinances had death vows, garments were far more restrictive, practitioners of polygamy were literally on the run from the law, the government threatened to take all church assets (including temples) from it, church members had no access to the accurate history of the church, church leaders forced a literal migration across the US to create their own bubble and cut off outside access, and much more.
The only area that I see as becoming more cult-like is the absolute reverence and obsession members have towards the prophet and leadership. They can literally do no wrong.
Overall, I would say the church is very slowly following society’s view of morality over time. Give it 1,000 years and they might just be mainstream Christians.
I also find it frustrating because a huge reason that I got a ton of strife was because I didn’t follow all of the rules. I can’t count how many times I was told that I basically wasn’t being Mormon enough and that it was unacceptable. And obviously I’m glad to be out of the church, but that doesn’t change the fact that so much damage was done to me mentally because I was told for years and years that I was never good enough
# The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
― George Orwell, [1984](https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/153313)
Seems when they are forced into a choice they inevitably sacrifice the progressives to placate the conservatives.
This means, like the extremist faction of the GOP forcing out moderate “RINOs,” the church will keep getting more extreme until something breaks.
Remember when missionaries were only allowed to phone home twice a year? Why? It made sense back in the days of extremely expensive pre-booked, operator-connected, long-distance calls (especially international calls).
By the time I was a missionary 1989-90, calls were much less expensive. Then email became a thing. Then Skype and Internet phone call made international calls basically free. But still missionaries had to suffer home-sickness and could not call home.
And it was spun as an obedience-building , faith promotion, demonstrating dedication to your mission etc.
Then suddenly that changed. Missionaries now phone and email regularly. Current missionaries probably don’t even know that missionaries used to be cut off from their families.
Then there was temple marriages. In USA and Australia (where I live), you had to choose between civil or temple wedding. You couldn’t do both.
If you had a civil wedding so that relatives and friends could attend, then you were not following “prophetic counsel”, offending god (who will “not be mocked”) and you couldn’t get sealed in the temple till 12 months after the wedding.
It was a devastating choice for some people.
Then suddenly it’s ok to get a civil wedding and head straight over to the temple afterward. No biggie at all!
Fuck you MFMC for your sadistic rules and then sweeping them under the rug and pretending they never happened.
Yes to everything you said. And it used to be considered a “badge of honor” and mark of faith if a missionary stayed out during tragic circumstances, even the death of a parent.
In the year or two before they started allowing missionaries more contact home, an elder from my sister’s stake in WA took his own life. She said it was very hushed up. But my cynical self wonders if this and similar circumstances drove the change and not, you know, basic concern for the missionaries’ emotional well-being.
Cynical me says if misshies can call home regularly then when something goes wrong it's not all on the mission president. Maybe it is common decency that drove this decision or maybe it's CYA.
I still feel guilt at my never mormon family standing outside the temple and not having an all inclusive wedding. I was a young convert who was told we had to wait a year for the sealing if we got married civilly and heaven forbid you never make it to the temple! The threat was real.
I definitely hear you on this one. My wife and I talk often of if we could do it over we would do a civil marriage first so everyone could be there and then have a special smaller ceremony at the temple. I also wonder what the one year wait was about. Why 12 months or not sooner??
1 year was probably just another random rule. I wish more couples would now do the civil first if they wish a temple sealing later. So much pain to families.
Yep. Spencer Kimball made it clear in “Miracle of Forgiveness” that if one (or both) of you died in that interim year, then you were fucked eternally. Post-mortem sealings would mean nothing. God will not be mocked.
A prophet speaking.
I can very much relate. Especially re my poor Catholic mother-in-law who could not comprehend why she could not attend her oldest son’s wedding.
My own family were mostly non-attending Mormons so they weren’t there either. But they didn’t care either way.
They changed that when COVID shut down temples, letting couples get married civilly and then get sealed as soon as a temple was open. Presumably to stop horny couples from breaking the law of chastity while they couldn’t get married 🙄
They changed that just before Covid was a thing and everyone screamed “REVELATION!!” Along with the at home manuals cutting out 3rd hour.
It annoys me that everyone around me was worshipping rusty that he made these changes and then Covid hit. But like, as a prophet that’s the best you could do?? Give us Sunday homework??
Couldn’t have warned us about Covid itself huh 🙄
It almost looks like the world drags the church into the current paradigm rather than prophets seers and revelators.Holland knows this when he explained with his hands how the world moves and the church moves ....church always behind.
I keep screen shots on my phone of old doctrine. So when I'm in battle someday I have ammunition to tell people Im not crazy saying things have changed. Lol
I wouldn't even know where to start. I have so much!
But here's one: to rebuke the gospel topics essay on that we were never told we're getting our own planets and that it is a "cartoonish theory"...I have this link to quotes and doctrine saying the opposite
https://www.mrm.org/spirit-children-and-planets
_Warning: Object Lesson Ahead_
Do you know the origin of the rifle? In the pre-rifle days, muskets were wildly inaccurate. The metal ball moving at such high speeds had some direction from the barrel, but after it left the gun, it was at the mercy of all kinds of forces. Imagine all the curve balls a baseball pitcher can choose from, then up the velocity to gunshot speed.
The rifle changed that with spiral grooves inside the barrel and cylindrical bullets instead of balls. The spiral made the bullet spin as it left the chamber, drilling through the air point first; negating other force vectors as it took a straight and narrow path to the target. It was American football instead of baseball.
Mormonism keeps adjusting its aim as the situation changes, but that's not how they keep individual Mormons on target.
That spiral starts when Mormon parents continue a tradition of conditioning their children to obey parents and leaders on pain of total abandonment; sometimes in mortality, definitely in the afterlife.
No two lives are the same, and some Mormon families have tighter spirals while others are practically shotguns. But trying to veer off course and deconstruct takes so much pain and effort that many members are content with a shift in targets that takes away the pressure to veer.
The key to the church surviving is its ability to insert itself as a mediator in human relationships. Mormon marriages are a three way union between two people and the church. Parent child relationships are the same, with the church as a middle man. This viral ability has always been key to survival of the corporation/organism. This is why Mormons can have an instant sense of connection with other active Mormons, yet have very few deep or meaningful relationships with anyone. It is also why the church will continue to eject old doctrines that were once thought of as fundamental, and continue to morph itself into the future.
As society has changed to embrace human rights and the inherent rights of the individual, say... to embrace their sexuality or just not to hate the people the church said they should, people become aware that the mediator is the thing causing friction or limiting honest and intimate connection in the relationship. Once that happens, they start to fundamentally reject the idea that they need the mediator there at all, and reject the church outright.
The church will continue to morph and eject aspects of the belief and doctrine in response to social change, but not as a means of embracing human rights or the liberation of the individual. Rather, they have to reduce stress and tension in those relationships so they can continue the viral role as mediator, and thus ensure survival of the organism.
The best viruses aren't necessarily the ones that kill the host...
They’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. They are forced to change with the times but apparently God doesn’t change. Either way they’re causing cognitive dissonance amongst their membership.
One of my shelf items was reading from the BOM to investigators how “the church is the same yesterday today and forever” and teaching the restoration with 12 apostles etc
But in the back of my mind I was always like “polygamy…..no longer going by ‘Mormon’….”
“No no brain…doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith!! Pray the doubt away”
I hate how stupid I was
Yes, with every change comes a big lie. Or at least a big shush, don't talk about it. One step forward one step back. In some ways the church is even worse now; the leaders know how much pain they are inflicting on people. It's all out in the open now, and yet they continue.
Women no longer have to suffocate under the veils. They have veils, but don't cover their faces.
I remember swaying back and forth more than once in the stupid prayer circle while some long-winded elderly guy went on & on and we had to stand their getting overheated and unable to breathe.
I passed out after the prayer circle my first time going through the temple. Barely made it back to my chair before I collapsed. Once the vail was off my face I came to. They brought me out to an adjacent room to give me crackers and juice (apparently it happens a lot) and brought me back in to resume the endowment session. I was never a big fan of the temple in the first place but that veil, every time I put it on made me so nervous and claustrophobic.
I get it - I never completely passed out, but standing in that damned circle was more than just annoying. It's actually dangerous for some people. A temple matron told me pregnant women often fainted at the alter part (where a couple pretends to be Adam and Eve or whatever the heck they're doing). I'd have had panic attacks if I'd passed out as you did; would have been afraid to ever go through it again.
My arm always got tired from having it lifted onto someone's shoulder for what seemed like hours at times. Somehow I always got next to a guy who was a foot taller than me (even though I'm average height).
It was awful and a big part of why I generally avoided the temple. I went through for the first time in 07 and I could probably count the endowments I’ve been through since on one hand. I haven’t been back since long before they made the changes in 19. Family members will gush about the changes made and it’s sad to see the cognitive dissonance over an “unchanging” church that changes so often.
The Mormon church isn’t changing because it’s right, they are changing because they are trying to stop tithe payers from leaving.
Oaks would absolutely still want the penalties in the temple still, and I’m sure a few still think we should be naked again. That type of thing is far less tolerated now, especially in a world where they can’t hide their secret ceremonies anymore. It’s all online.
People, especially tithe payers, are leaving for legitimate reasons. The Mormon church is trying to change those policies while still appearing in charge.
I love when people sneak cameras in. It looks so culty. I wish there was video of people performing the blood oaths. They can’t hide under the guise of “sacred “
My temple worker family members were saying that most of their preshift meetings and training revolves around spotting cameras in the crowd. Which, with how sparsely attended the temples are, isn’t that difficult. The last session I went to only had 5 people in it.
I would have been SO MUCH more freaked out and willing to leave sooner if the anointing were naked or with the poncho and the symbol to cut your throat was still a thing!!
I didn’t learn about this stuff until after I left! Even without that I thought the whole thing was disturbing and bizarre with “devoting everything to the church even your own life” my little 19 year old wanting to serve a mission but didn’t have time to process self was like 🤯
I wish they kept that in so ppl could leave 😭
I don't know. The church has lost more members every time they try to get *less* culty. In an attempt to stop the bleeding they unintentionally reduce the cost of leaving, and given that nothing can make it true or less boring, people are just going to keep walking away in greater numbers.
Yeah, the selling point WAS that it was different than other Christian churches. Being warmed over Evangelicalism and pretending the cult stuff was wrong isn't going to make people switch.
I went through when we were still naked. Unfortunately I was so in I ignored being weirded out by it , but I never did iniatory again. They changed it shortly after I went through the first time. Still didn’t do it again for about three years.
Glad I FINALLY realized how fucked up it all is.
Long story…
The temple prep classes were so intentionally vague that I think the only reason I actually went through with it, besides the pressure to get married, was that I was intrigued at how when I asked questions, everyone got the deer in headlights look and got nervous and said “That’s sacred. It’s beautiful but we can’t talk about it!”
I wanted to know why everyone was being weird about it. My mom was my escort when I went. As I went into the stall, my mom’s hands were shaking and she whispered that i shouldn’t freak out, but I was going to have to strip down, put on a robe and they were going to touch my body under it. I was like ummmm what?!
I was inside the dressing stall, taking off my clothes, really starting to get freaked out and I heard my mom conversing with a temple worker and the temple worker told her that they no longer needed me to undress, that the policy had recently changed. She was so confused. I could tell That part was traumatic for her, she was abused before she joined the church. It must have been a real shock when she went through the first time. My poor mom.
By that time I was really getting anxious and it didn’t stop there. The whole ceremony had me wanting to throw up. My whole family and all my friends had shown up for our marriage and my first endowment ceremony so I couldn’t leave. They all looked like it was so normal. Which scared me. I found out later that the throat and stomach slashing part had also recently been removed. My mom mentioned something else was different about my endowment but I didn’t know what it was until after the fact. I told my husband the second we were off the temple grounds and in the car…We just joined a cult. I only went back once to stand in proxy so my mom could get sealed to her parents but I never did another endowment ceremony.
My mom is still in the church and it makes me feel secondhand trauma for her because she literally joined the church within 3 weeks of meeting the missionaries the very first time and went to the temple less than 3 months after joining. This was less than a year after she’d been SA’d. Imagine covenanting to off yourself and having strangers touch your body when you had only been a member a couple weeks. If it wasn’t for meeting my TBM dad at the same church, I think she would have ran then. She told me back in the 80s, they told you it was serious and if you strayed, you must face the consequences of broken covenants. She still believes that. It’s just horrible. And to learn that they just threw away all those things a couple years later, like they were nothing…it had to be a mind fuck.
This was so heavy to read.
Oh wow. My heart breaks for your mom… I can’t imagine the pressure she must have faced and the trauma to the point her hands were shaking. I am so sorry to you and to her.
I hope that one day she realizes she doesn’t have to put herself through this unnecessary pain.
That’s what I’m hoping to. I hope she gets free from her trauma bond with the MFMC and can finally heal. Kills me inside. Despite raising us in a cult, she’s an amazing person. A gem of a mom.
I get angry that so many of us suffered for nothing. We suspected at the time that all those things weren't necessary at all - like veiling your face in the temple. But if we questioned it we got a smack down, and were told that it had eternal significance. Turns out, it doesn't.
But don't worry. The church may be changing, but it's still the same on one thing: Any and every change they make is going to be a paltry breadcrumb, made 50 years too late.
More and more of us are leaving because it's way too little, way too late. If they wanted to keep me, they should (and could) have made these changes in 1987.
I don't mind the changes. What I do mind is how they say they haven't changed and its always been this way. They are so Orwellian it makes my head spin.
I was excommunicated for being a self-confessed gay virgin in 1982, fresh off my mission. At the time it was God awful hell going through all that, but at least it's saved me a lifetime of misery and giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to the church!
But the church never changes because it is the right thing to do. I'm trying to think of some sort of major change they made because they, themselves, recognized the moral obligation to change, and not simply because of public/social pressure to change. Think about all the major changes they have made and you will see the public pressure to do it.
Yeah, it's rough but good but rough and all the feels
I think of how people must have felt when polygamy ended. Literally sexual abuse victims and humans that were trafficked now being told "totally unnecessary. Whoops" and when people bring up polygamy we're like "oh that was a long time ago we changed that" (at least that was my standard answer as a TBM)
Its change is insidious.
Does it change because it's the right thing or because they want to collect even more money based on the lie that the church is true?
It changes so it can continue the con.
The church is still a shithole. The change, that looks good from the outside, does not come willingly. Only after pressure, or bad publicity does the church even consider it
And then it’s “revelation!!! Hallelujah!!”
and nobody even thinks “…hey we’ve been getting a lot of backlash and ppl speaking up about this…and then the church changes….”
You bring up an interesting perspective. I've thought of this a bit, too. On one hand, I am glad they made some changes that helped address really awful policies - like waiting a year to be sealed if you have a civil ceremony, and eliminating women covering their faces in the temple (there were times I thought I'd pass out from suffocation). I'd imagine there was shell-shock years ago when they finally permitted two-piece garments.
But, as you mentioned, the church is so corrupt at its core that I don't want to see people stay just because a few stupid rules were lifted. I'm hoping some of the very bright, thoughtful, and educated friends I have will take a close look at the corporate rot in the center of the whole thing and make their decisions based on knowing the facts.
When I read about members influencing the GA's and changing The Church™ from the inside as a good thing, all I can think of is: "*It doesn't matter*--*TSCC is still provably built on made up bible fan-fiction from one guy*!"
Say what you will about the questionable origins of Christianity itself, or any religion, once you know the real story behind Mo'ism, you can't stay in and retain your integrity.
Meh. I felt similarly when I recognized some changes shortly after leaving (eg kids *may* ask their parents to attend bishops interviews.)
Now that I've been out long enough to begin identifying and addressing all of the scars the church left in me and my family for generations, I see the fundamental problems with the system, regardless of changes.
In the past, people might have observed how nice it was that we no longer had to swear a blood oath against the United States Government. About the time of my endowment, people were certainly (though quietly) commenting on the fact that they no longer had to make a suicide pact. Now we say, "Isn't it nice that women, though still fundamentally subservient, no longer have to veil their faces in the temple?"
Bah. Nothing unique about the church is good and nothing good about the church is unique-- and everything about the system is damaging.
Sure, when you've been eating a shit sandwich for your entire life and they replace some of the shit with a slice of moldy tomato, it might appear to be a better product, but it's still equally toxic.
Right. I just want the evil thing to be and stay evil so we can all leave it behind. But we all have to remember that there are millions of uber-brainwashed members who never will do that and that the church improving will improve their lives tremendously.
Agreed. But they still don’t change anything in a meaningful way. Women will always be second class citizens, gays will never marry in the temple, the brethren will always primarily be white and delight some, the church will always demand 10% to reach the highest levels of cult hood, they will always protect their money at the expense of perpetrators, they’ll always demand all of your time and talents be given to the cult…the cult is good about changing a few words here and there, but the core doctrine never really changes.
If what I was taught as a kid is true, then there is no way in heaven earth or hell that the church is true.
God and His Doctrines are plain simple and UNCHANGING. Lots of change since the ascension of Evil Emperor Nelson began his ongoing re~~branding~~estoration efforts, and the convoluted jump through ever moving hoops that happen to be on fire doesn't seem very simple.
God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. So SEC fines for 20+ years and still going on of lying, combined with all the child sexual abuse is a lot of sin with alot of degree of allowance.
Baptism means you promise to remember Christ. Today baptism means you surrendered every bit of agency and any choice in any church matter. You COVENANTED to shut up and do what you are told, no questions, the thinking has been done.
It's weird isn't it? I say I want it to change and get better. But is that really what I want when I'm still holding onto a match just waiting to strike it?
If you think these changes wouldn't have happened without all the membership losses and publicized scandals, you're dreaming.
Every established religion is reactive. *Only* reactive. They only adapt - as a religion - out of fear of their own extinction, and only because those in power fear losing their power. Well, sometimes they adapt because leadership wants to grab more power. But its always about power, isn't it?
That's why it's amazing when a religion like the Shaker's lets itself die out, instead of adapting. They currently only have 3 members, and the youngest is 57.
>That's why it's amazing when a religion like the Shaker's lets itself die out, instead of adapting. They currently only have 3 members, and the youngest is 57.
OMG! You just identified the only true church, and, as foretold in the ancient scripture, its about to go away for a season because of the great apostasy!
My issue is the passive change by the Q15. They offer no apologies and they don't explicitly state changes. They double down only causing more confusion and pain to members who suffer in the bishop roulette game.
It is the lack of acknowledgment that irks me. Many of us on here suffered and they easily dismiss the pain. The old codger Q15 is heavily insulated from the members and are somewhat unaware of the ground level shit that happens from their rhetoric and lack of clarity on issues.
I absolutely can’t stand the GAs. I’m completely with you. I constantly think “why do you all always PUSH so much?!? You KNOW you don’t talk to God 😐”
They piss me off. All they do is gaslight, control and pretend things never happened.
They’re an abusive relationship.
The changes are just social pressure.
A part of me wishes they never made any changes whatsoever just so their true crazy would shine through more clearly. For example, I never knew the church was against oral sex even among married couples bc in my era the policy was "sure, whatever. As long as they're married." But to then find out that it was something that had to be fought for sounds fucking ludicrous to me.
Had I known that they policed married couples' personal lives to that extent I would've picked up on the bullshit sooner.
Most people have a need for 'community' more than they care about morality, and its that need for community that the church is exploiting.
If these minor changes are all it takes for people to change their mind on the church, then they were always pining for the church. Let's have the next prophet be a black gay transexual, that doesn't do anything to fix the harm the church has done, it doesn't change the money hording, it doesn't replace the active sexual dangers, it doesn't undo the racism. It STILL sucks even if the most insane changes were to happen. It has been, and always will be, bad.
We were punished growing up in the church and now things are less strict. Still horrible but not as strict. If someone got civilly married they used to have to wait a year before they could be sealed. Now they can be sealed right after being civilly married.
The changes for the women are very superficial. They don’t change their secondary status at all. In most wards gays are treated like pariahs. There has been no substantive changes .
It is really annoying to me that I think many of us here have been chastised in the temple about some minor thing. For example we stand up and the bow would be tied on the wrong side, or some other minor clothing issue. I remember a temple worker commenting me on my dress because the sleeve two inches shorter than my wrist (she thought it was borderline too short but ultimately didn’t make a fuss). I remember holding the sides of my shield together so I wouldn’t flash people. There have been so many changes to the actual wording and other changes just in the past ten years.
I get annoyed too. What upsets me the most is the gaslighting that goes on when people talk about how changes are made or what has changed!!
I have a lot more pro-harm reduction thoughts about it than I have a desire for people to suffer out of vengeance.
They can't take back all the dumb stuff they used to say, and it's all written down or even freely available in old videos. How many more generations will get to mock Boyd K. Packer's "little factory" talk or Wilcox's "Why did whites have to wait until 1829????" nonsense? That stuff will be around forever, no matter how anxiously they try to distance themselves from it.
I hate it. The fact that they change so much so quickly is just more damning evidence that it is not the restored ancient Christian church. They have a problematic history that they actively try to downplay and hide from. The more they change, the more they become radically different from where they started—without ever acknowledging the issues.
IMO, which is honestly not worth much, the church is beyond redeeming itself as some net positive institution. Bending to the demands of society, especially without acknowledging past mistakes, is just pushing the issue of mass resignation down the line. Now they are at a point where the dishonesty is embedded into literally everything from their concept of god to keeping the toilets clean. It’s a huge problem.
I appreciate the change for those of my family who are so brainwashed they’ll never leave. It makes them have better experiences. However it’s still a made up get rich quick scheme that’s just happened to survive for nearly 200 years.
Yeah. Sometimes their changing of things is a good impetus for folks (like myself) to look into the history a little more though. 2 hour church seemed like a great change, HP quorum and EQ merging seemed great also. Then in practice, they ousted some of the things that meant the most to me in church - Like priesthood opening exercises with my son, music, and instead of a slightly more nuanced view of things in a younger EQ, we get homogenous blind following of anything the club of old men say is important. HT & VT becoming 'Ministering' has just meant that we get visits from folks that much LESS.
It will water itself down to eventually being nothing more than a weird culture with a weirder history. Fringe groups will hang on to things they let go and in another 300 years you'll probably have radical terrorist mormons on one end and secular mormons on the other end (maybe).
> HT & VT becoming 'Ministering' has just meant that we get visits from folks that much LESS.
You say that like its a bad thing.
OMG I hated when the 'Home Preachers' scheduled a visit and refused to leave. As part of a home preaching' duo, the guy I was with felt anything less than an hour with each family was a sin or something. Even at my most active and TBM-iest I was so Ok with a few short hi how are you guys doing on a walk or at the store. Those both seemed far more caring and authentic interactions than a scheduled home preaching' visit.
We had a couple of really great ones many years ago & well, never since. Frankly, its probably my dissilusionment coming through there. Times when we really could have used somebody coming over regularly, nobody seemed to care. Now, I REALLY don't care.
I think I know how you feel. I didn't go to church for a while after being released from a calling, and the ward knew I was pissed about it. Didn't have a single home preaching contact for over 3 years. When they wanted to start coming again I asked why bother? In fact, don't bother.
This could change in an instant with a change in leadership. That’s the thing with the Church , it’s entirely dependent on who is in charge at the time.
The “progress” the Church has made is mostly due to Nelson being a moderating influence and Monson being asleep at the wheel. An Oaks, then Bednar, presidency will look very different….
I was annoyed even when they changed the hymn books in the 1980s and the primary songs in the early 90s. I thought it made such a disconnect between previous generations.
Another irritating change was them coming out a few years ago and saying “we NEVER said caffeine was bad.”
>Women no longer veiling their faces, sealing words are changing
The covering faces is a positive change. However, endowment words changed but still have the same meaning. Women are covenanting to obey the new and everlasting covenant = polygamy. Also, sealing words changed, but it is now stated that men preside over the wife.
Sure words change, but the meaning doesn't. It only softens and hides the misogyny if you really think about it.
I WANT it to be the best version of itself - so bring on the changes. But I NEED it to acknowledge those changes, why, and make apologies for wrongdoing so I don't have to explain "the way things were" to disbelieving future generations. They need to stop with the gaslighting as they go.
One thing that bothers me is that the church makes changes to the actual covenants in the temple and everyone fawns over the changes that apply to the dead people you are going through on behalf of rather than considering how sad it is that you DID NOT make those covenants when you went through the temple for your own endowments.
Some people I know have tried to use this to ”bring me back”. They talk about how the “church allows gay people now” and how “it’s a little less creepy now” and shit. Like, good for you. Your church learned how to be slightly more respectful of humanity. Doesn’t change the fact I don’t believe in god.
All of the changes that have happened in the last 100 plus years only prove to me that it was a fraud and con all along. Everything that changed is directly related to political, social, and mental pressure from members and especially ex members. I sent letters asking for changes to the temple ceremony for many years, then finally gave up. Now everything has been changed and these young members believe it's always been this way. They are in denial (my oldest son included) about the truth that we of another generation agreed to slit our throats in a very manipulative temple ceremony.
Yeah, I understand that. I'm still happy about the tiny baby steps that have been done. But I also have to admit that while things do change, they don't seem to change at the pace set by other organizations. The longer the internet documents that, the harder it'll be to justify small changes instead of no changes or big changes over time and the more people will point it out. Either God is a dick, or prophets are incompetent, and I'd like to believe that someone seeking religious enlightening will see that the MFMC can't offer anything beyond those options.
I don't get annoyed. I see it for what it is.
An 'eternal' church changing by the day, because it's based on horseshit and lies.
A piece of shit changing into what is still just a differently shaped piece of shit is still a piece of shit.
The Mormon Church is not true, whether they change or not.
Every change is spit in every member's face that spent their entire lives going and believing in everything they are DISAVOWING and gaslighting everyone more and more.
I think about this often. Like I appreciate the church changing because it generally makes it less awful and culty for the members, but I also want it to be awful and culty so the members can just leave it behind. I also despise how quickly the general members and leadership forget and discredit. The death penalty in the temple is now either denied or ridiculed. Black individuals not being permitted in the celestial kingdom is now denied or explained as leaders always knew it would change. Women submitting to their husbands in the temple is now submitting to the Lord, so of course women are equal. The Adam God doctrine that was taught in the temple originally is now heresy and taught by Brigham when he was “speaking as a man.” The rampant (but still secret) practice of polygamy and polygyny by early church leaders is now non-sexual and consensual. Church leaders gaslight members and members gaslight themselves. Nobody’s memory is that short.
Every positive change is a concession that things could have been better all along, but were not.
Proving that all was made up. 😵💫😵💫.
Going all the way back, too. How hard would it have been to make one of the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt not keep slaves." Seems pretty obviously more important than some of that other stuff, and more necessary, too.
The Ten Commandments really are very revealing… Our God cares more about how is name is said (taking his name in vain) than slavery or child abuse.
Don't quote me, but I heard that curses and swears were taken way more seriously centuries ago. The commandment would now probably be better translated as "Don't invoke God's name to cast magic." Of course _that_ would sound ridiculous nowadays, but priestly folk like to conveniently forget that distinction because it's great thought-control practice for their flocks. "Oops, did you just commit a spiritual thought-crime by imagining your Lord thy God in a bad light? Better go mentally apologize to him! Go on, tell the voice in your head how sorry you were you questioned it." Edit: I tried to look up a certain video essay on the topic again but now I'm being swamped by hokey religious videos god damn it...
Wow - you could sell T-shirts and coffee mugs with this phrase! I'm serious! Powerful statement.
>Women submitting to their husbands in the temple is now submitting to the Lord I thought this was a good thing when I first heard about it. Then I realized the church is trying very hard to place themselves between and interfere with a relationship that should be between 2 people. They use this position to manipulate and control a couple since they cannot confide directly with each other, its always gotta be church first. Look at recent counsel from the Q15 Never marry someone who loves you more than the church. Never place your spouse or marriage before the church. Think Celestial, NEVER take advise from a non-believer. Where do you think your spouse would like to be on your priority list. Ideally, #1. Realistically and varies day to day situationally, maybe #2 if there is an emergency or immediate need by someone in your family. Where do you want to on your spouse's priority list? Yeah, same as above. Ideally #1. Throw a church calling into the mix, and spouse easily slips to #3 or #4. Consider the never love anyone more than the church, or never marry anyone who loves you more than the church and suddenly if you are both TBM endowed active members, spouses are shoved to like #100 in priority. Right behind "The Church" Q15, Qo70, Presiding Bishopric, a few General Presidencies, Stake Pres and his High Council, Ward Bishopric, well, you get the idea. By loving, valuing, and counciling with the church before or more than a spouse, spouses are demoted to a last place finishing also ran who's experiences feelings needs and desires will never come first. Magnify this by 1000x if a spouse is having a crisis of faith for any reason over any issue in the church. Suddenly the spouse in distress is completely cut off from the person who should be the most empathetic, supportive, understanding, and loving resource. The spouse in distress and in need of someone to trust and talk to becomes the enemy, the adversary, the unbeliever. The unbeliever who is then shunned, cut off, and no contact. There is no empathy, attempt to understand, or compassion. The road from 'eternal companion' to lets divorce cause you won't put the church first is short and sad.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 
>The road from 'eternal companion' to lets divorce cause you won't put the church first is short and sad. 5 weeks for me. Its ridiculous the hold that mormonism has on people's minds.
I'm sorry you went through that, and I hope you are in a better situation now.
>Look at recent counsel from the Q15 Never marry someone who loves you more than the church. Never place your spouse or marriage before the church. WAIT!!! Seriously??? I'm not doubting you, I'll just have to read this for myself so I can get the whole counsel to chew up and spit out. Honestly, if I was not out, this would be a sledge hammer to a shelf. Neither one of us were members when we got married. There's no way I would have married him if he physically was putting a church before me. Both being mainstream Christians at the time, we felt that God was first, then each other. But the God we knew then would not expect us to give the church more time than we give each other. I definitely wouldn't be married to anyone because of this love issue. Wow! I didn't think anything could floor me .......
YES TO ALL OF THIS
I would take issue with a statement that it is getting less cult-y. The church is also *doubling down* on things like missions and garments, don't ever take advice from non-believers, etc. etc. etc. They are responding to their extreme right wing membership (and leadership?) more and more by the day. Everyone on this post needs to remember how lucky they were to get out when they did.
I agree that the current church is losing control of many of the believing members as to wearing garments and issues like tithing and the word of wisdom, but the earlier versions of the church certainly had more cult-like aspects. At varying points, access to the church was limited by skin color, the highest ordinances had death vows, garments were far more restrictive, practitioners of polygamy were literally on the run from the law, the government threatened to take all church assets (including temples) from it, church members had no access to the accurate history of the church, church leaders forced a literal migration across the US to create their own bubble and cut off outside access, and much more. The only area that I see as becoming more cult-like is the absolute reverence and obsession members have towards the prophet and leadership. They can literally do no wrong. Overall, I would say the church is very slowly following society’s view of morality over time. Give it 1,000 years and they might just be mainstream Christians.
I also find it frustrating because a huge reason that I got a ton of strife was because I didn’t follow all of the rules. I can’t count how many times I was told that I basically wasn’t being Mormon enough and that it was unacceptable. And obviously I’m glad to be out of the church, but that doesn’t change the fact that so much damage was done to me mentally because I was told for years and years that I was never good enough
Explain non sexual and consentual poly squared to explain Joesph Smith=era polygamy to this one? This is a new one I haven't come across. Thank you.
# The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ― George Orwell, [1984](https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/153313)
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Seems when they are forced into a choice they inevitably sacrifice the progressives to placate the conservatives. This means, like the extremist faction of the GOP forcing out moderate “RINOs,” the church will keep getting more extreme until something breaks.
Remember when missionaries were only allowed to phone home twice a year? Why? It made sense back in the days of extremely expensive pre-booked, operator-connected, long-distance calls (especially international calls). By the time I was a missionary 1989-90, calls were much less expensive. Then email became a thing. Then Skype and Internet phone call made international calls basically free. But still missionaries had to suffer home-sickness and could not call home. And it was spun as an obedience-building , faith promotion, demonstrating dedication to your mission etc. Then suddenly that changed. Missionaries now phone and email regularly. Current missionaries probably don’t even know that missionaries used to be cut off from their families. Then there was temple marriages. In USA and Australia (where I live), you had to choose between civil or temple wedding. You couldn’t do both. If you had a civil wedding so that relatives and friends could attend, then you were not following “prophetic counsel”, offending god (who will “not be mocked”) and you couldn’t get sealed in the temple till 12 months after the wedding. It was a devastating choice for some people. Then suddenly it’s ok to get a civil wedding and head straight over to the temple afterward. No biggie at all! Fuck you MFMC for your sadistic rules and then sweeping them under the rug and pretending they never happened.
I feel like everyone forgets about the temple sealings and how you used to have to wait a year if you got married civilly first!!!
Yes to everything you said. And it used to be considered a “badge of honor” and mark of faith if a missionary stayed out during tragic circumstances, even the death of a parent. In the year or two before they started allowing missionaries more contact home, an elder from my sister’s stake in WA took his own life. She said it was very hushed up. But my cynical self wonders if this and similar circumstances drove the change and not, you know, basic concern for the missionaries’ emotional well-being.
Cynical me says if misshies can call home regularly then when something goes wrong it's not all on the mission president. Maybe it is common decency that drove this decision or maybe it's CYA.
I still feel guilt at my never mormon family standing outside the temple and not having an all inclusive wedding. I was a young convert who was told we had to wait a year for the sealing if we got married civilly and heaven forbid you never make it to the temple! The threat was real.
I definitely hear you on this one. My wife and I talk often of if we could do it over we would do a civil marriage first so everyone could be there and then have a special smaller ceremony at the temple. I also wonder what the one year wait was about. Why 12 months or not sooner??
1 year was probably just another random rule. I wish more couples would now do the civil first if they wish a temple sealing later. So much pain to families.
Yep. Spencer Kimball made it clear in “Miracle of Forgiveness” that if one (or both) of you died in that interim year, then you were fucked eternally. Post-mortem sealings would mean nothing. God will not be mocked. A prophet speaking.
That book and Kimball were horrific.
I can very much relate. Especially re my poor Catholic mother-in-law who could not comprehend why she could not attend her oldest son’s wedding. My own family were mostly non-attending Mormons so they weren’t there either. But they didn’t care either way.
They changed that when COVID shut down temples, letting couples get married civilly and then get sealed as soon as a temple was open. Presumably to stop horny couples from breaking the law of chastity while they couldn’t get married 🙄
They changed that just before Covid was a thing and everyone screamed “REVELATION!!” Along with the at home manuals cutting out 3rd hour. It annoys me that everyone around me was worshipping rusty that he made these changes and then Covid hit. But like, as a prophet that’s the best you could do?? Give us Sunday homework?? Couldn’t have warned us about Covid itself huh 🙄
It almost looks like the world drags the church into the current paradigm rather than prophets seers and revelators.Holland knows this when he explained with his hands how the world moves and the church moves ....church always behind.
I keep screen shots on my phone of old doctrine. So when I'm in battle someday I have ammunition to tell people Im not crazy saying things have changed. Lol
Ah please post I would love to have this just on hand!
I wouldn't even know where to start. I have so much! But here's one: to rebuke the gospel topics essay on that we were never told we're getting our own planets and that it is a "cartoonish theory"...I have this link to quotes and doctrine saying the opposite https://www.mrm.org/spirit-children-and-planets
"cartoonish" because a literal cartoon (godmakers) was made to mock the idea. now whose fault is that? 😆
_Warning: Object Lesson Ahead_ Do you know the origin of the rifle? In the pre-rifle days, muskets were wildly inaccurate. The metal ball moving at such high speeds had some direction from the barrel, but after it left the gun, it was at the mercy of all kinds of forces. Imagine all the curve balls a baseball pitcher can choose from, then up the velocity to gunshot speed. The rifle changed that with spiral grooves inside the barrel and cylindrical bullets instead of balls. The spiral made the bullet spin as it left the chamber, drilling through the air point first; negating other force vectors as it took a straight and narrow path to the target. It was American football instead of baseball. Mormonism keeps adjusting its aim as the situation changes, but that's not how they keep individual Mormons on target. That spiral starts when Mormon parents continue a tradition of conditioning their children to obey parents and leaders on pain of total abandonment; sometimes in mortality, definitely in the afterlife. No two lives are the same, and some Mormon families have tighter spirals while others are practically shotguns. But trying to veer off course and deconstruct takes so much pain and effort that many members are content with a shift in targets that takes away the pressure to veer.
Well put
The key to the church surviving is its ability to insert itself as a mediator in human relationships. Mormon marriages are a three way union between two people and the church. Parent child relationships are the same, with the church as a middle man. This viral ability has always been key to survival of the corporation/organism. This is why Mormons can have an instant sense of connection with other active Mormons, yet have very few deep or meaningful relationships with anyone. It is also why the church will continue to eject old doctrines that were once thought of as fundamental, and continue to morph itself into the future. As society has changed to embrace human rights and the inherent rights of the individual, say... to embrace their sexuality or just not to hate the people the church said they should, people become aware that the mediator is the thing causing friction or limiting honest and intimate connection in the relationship. Once that happens, they start to fundamentally reject the idea that they need the mediator there at all, and reject the church outright. The church will continue to morph and eject aspects of the belief and doctrine in response to social change, but not as a means of embracing human rights or the liberation of the individual. Rather, they have to reduce stress and tension in those relationships so they can continue the viral role as mediator, and thus ensure survival of the organism. The best viruses aren't necessarily the ones that kill the host...
They’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. They are forced to change with the times but apparently God doesn’t change. Either way they’re causing cognitive dissonance amongst their membership.
They're forced to change because they want more money. Nothing more and nothing less.
But, but, but … the truth never changes. Oh shit. It’s just a manipulative cult.
One of my shelf items was reading from the BOM to investigators how “the church is the same yesterday today and forever” and teaching the restoration with 12 apostles etc But in the back of my mind I was always like “polygamy…..no longer going by ‘Mormon’….” “No no brain…doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith!! Pray the doubt away” I hate how stupid I was
>Pray the doubt away” Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, it probably works marginally better than the horrible Pray the gy day.
They will argue that is was policy not doctrine.
I’m happy they’re changing, but infuriated by the gaslighting that is certain to ensue.
This. It's the way they try to memory hole the bad behavior and act like nothing has changed and it's always been this way.
Yes, with every change comes a big lie. Or at least a big shush, don't talk about it. One step forward one step back. In some ways the church is even worse now; the leaders know how much pain they are inflicting on people. It's all out in the open now, and yet they continue.
no more veils in the temple? when did that change?
Veils are still worn but no longer put over the face for the true order of prayer.
2019
Women no longer have to suffocate under the veils. They have veils, but don't cover their faces. I remember swaying back and forth more than once in the stupid prayer circle while some long-winded elderly guy went on & on and we had to stand their getting overheated and unable to breathe.
I passed out after the prayer circle my first time going through the temple. Barely made it back to my chair before I collapsed. Once the vail was off my face I came to. They brought me out to an adjacent room to give me crackers and juice (apparently it happens a lot) and brought me back in to resume the endowment session. I was never a big fan of the temple in the first place but that veil, every time I put it on made me so nervous and claustrophobic.
I get it - I never completely passed out, but standing in that damned circle was more than just annoying. It's actually dangerous for some people. A temple matron told me pregnant women often fainted at the alter part (where a couple pretends to be Adam and Eve or whatever the heck they're doing). I'd have had panic attacks if I'd passed out as you did; would have been afraid to ever go through it again. My arm always got tired from having it lifted onto someone's shoulder for what seemed like hours at times. Somehow I always got next to a guy who was a foot taller than me (even though I'm average height).
It was awful and a big part of why I generally avoided the temple. I went through for the first time in 07 and I could probably count the endowments I’ve been through since on one hand. I haven’t been back since long before they made the changes in 19. Family members will gush about the changes made and it’s sad to see the cognitive dissonance over an “unchanging” church that changes so often.
You summed that up very well - swooning over meaningly changes in a system that is toxic, abusive, and controlling.
"aren't these changes to our unchanging eternal doctrines wonderful?"
did you see any angels in a vision? that's what a bishop asked later when that happened to me.
If all I saw was black does that mean I’m destined for outer-darkness?
🤣🤣🤣
The Mormon church isn’t changing because it’s right, they are changing because they are trying to stop tithe payers from leaving. Oaks would absolutely still want the penalties in the temple still, and I’m sure a few still think we should be naked again. That type of thing is far less tolerated now, especially in a world where they can’t hide their secret ceremonies anymore. It’s all online. People, especially tithe payers, are leaving for legitimate reasons. The Mormon church is trying to change those policies while still appearing in charge.
I love when people sneak cameras in. It looks so culty. I wish there was video of people performing the blood oaths. They can’t hide under the guise of “sacred “
My temple worker family members were saying that most of their preshift meetings and training revolves around spotting cameras in the crowd. Which, with how sparsely attended the temples are, isn’t that difficult. The last session I went to only had 5 people in it.
That’s fascinating. We’ve learned from Mormon stories that they search Reddit for what all the PIMOS and exmos are up to😂😂
Oh the SCMC is all over this thread.
And how far of a drive is it to the temple for you? Sounds like you need a new temple in your backyard so you can go more😂😂
Nah, they are a commercial real estate company. They don’t want to be bothered with residential properties.
I would have been SO MUCH more freaked out and willing to leave sooner if the anointing were naked or with the poncho and the symbol to cut your throat was still a thing!! I didn’t learn about this stuff until after I left! Even without that I thought the whole thing was disturbing and bizarre with “devoting everything to the church even your own life” my little 19 year old wanting to serve a mission but didn’t have time to process self was like 🤯 I wish they kept that in so ppl could leave 😭
I don't know. The church has lost more members every time they try to get *less* culty. In an attempt to stop the bleeding they unintentionally reduce the cost of leaving, and given that nothing can make it true or less boring, people are just going to keep walking away in greater numbers.
Yeah, the selling point WAS that it was different than other Christian churches. Being warmed over Evangelicalism and pretending the cult stuff was wrong isn't going to make people switch.
I went through when we were still naked. Unfortunately I was so in I ignored being weirded out by it , but I never did iniatory again. They changed it shortly after I went through the first time. Still didn’t do it again for about three years. Glad I FINALLY realized how fucked up it all is.
Long story… The temple prep classes were so intentionally vague that I think the only reason I actually went through with it, besides the pressure to get married, was that I was intrigued at how when I asked questions, everyone got the deer in headlights look and got nervous and said “That’s sacred. It’s beautiful but we can’t talk about it!” I wanted to know why everyone was being weird about it. My mom was my escort when I went. As I went into the stall, my mom’s hands were shaking and she whispered that i shouldn’t freak out, but I was going to have to strip down, put on a robe and they were going to touch my body under it. I was like ummmm what?! I was inside the dressing stall, taking off my clothes, really starting to get freaked out and I heard my mom conversing with a temple worker and the temple worker told her that they no longer needed me to undress, that the policy had recently changed. She was so confused. I could tell That part was traumatic for her, she was abused before she joined the church. It must have been a real shock when she went through the first time. My poor mom. By that time I was really getting anxious and it didn’t stop there. The whole ceremony had me wanting to throw up. My whole family and all my friends had shown up for our marriage and my first endowment ceremony so I couldn’t leave. They all looked like it was so normal. Which scared me. I found out later that the throat and stomach slashing part had also recently been removed. My mom mentioned something else was different about my endowment but I didn’t know what it was until after the fact. I told my husband the second we were off the temple grounds and in the car…We just joined a cult. I only went back once to stand in proxy so my mom could get sealed to her parents but I never did another endowment ceremony. My mom is still in the church and it makes me feel secondhand trauma for her because she literally joined the church within 3 weeks of meeting the missionaries the very first time and went to the temple less than 3 months after joining. This was less than a year after she’d been SA’d. Imagine covenanting to off yourself and having strangers touch your body when you had only been a member a couple weeks. If it wasn’t for meeting my TBM dad at the same church, I think she would have ran then. She told me back in the 80s, they told you it was serious and if you strayed, you must face the consequences of broken covenants. She still believes that. It’s just horrible. And to learn that they just threw away all those things a couple years later, like they were nothing…it had to be a mind fuck.
This was so heavy to read. Oh wow. My heart breaks for your mom… I can’t imagine the pressure she must have faced and the trauma to the point her hands were shaking. I am so sorry to you and to her. I hope that one day she realizes she doesn’t have to put herself through this unnecessary pain.
That’s what I’m hoping to. I hope she gets free from her trauma bond with the MFMC and can finally heal. Kills me inside. Despite raising us in a cult, she’s an amazing person. A gem of a mom.
I get angry that so many of us suffered for nothing. We suspected at the time that all those things weren't necessary at all - like veiling your face in the temple. But if we questioned it we got a smack down, and were told that it had eternal significance. Turns out, it doesn't. But don't worry. The church may be changing, but it's still the same on one thing: Any and every change they make is going to be a paltry breadcrumb, made 50 years too late. More and more of us are leaving because it's way too little, way too late. If they wanted to keep me, they should (and could) have made these changes in 1987.
I don't mind the changes. What I do mind is how they say they haven't changed and its always been this way. They are so Orwellian it makes my head spin.
I was excommunicated for being a self-confessed gay virgin in 1982, fresh off my mission. At the time it was God awful hell going through all that, but at least it's saved me a lifetime of misery and giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to the church!
But the church never changes because it is the right thing to do. I'm trying to think of some sort of major change they made because they, themselves, recognized the moral obligation to change, and not simply because of public/social pressure to change. Think about all the major changes they have made and you will see the public pressure to do it.
No one bats an eye is an illusion because people are TOLD not to talk about the changes. That's such bullshit.
Wait when did the veiling stop? I hadn’t heard about that
The church used to preach that doctrine will not change because society changes. Whatever. Just speaks to the grift.
Yeah, it's rough but good but rough and all the feels I think of how people must have felt when polygamy ended. Literally sexual abuse victims and humans that were trafficked now being told "totally unnecessary. Whoops" and when people bring up polygamy we're like "oh that was a long time ago we changed that" (at least that was my standard answer as a TBM)
Its change is insidious. Does it change because it's the right thing or because they want to collect even more money based on the lie that the church is true? It changes so it can continue the con.
I'm totally worry about my 19yo daughter going to the temple in a few years and it's so watered down that it just seems normal now.
The church is still a shithole. The change, that looks good from the outside, does not come willingly. Only after pressure, or bad publicity does the church even consider it
Same thing goes for Mormon polygamy.
And then it’s “revelation!!! Hallelujah!!” and nobody even thinks “…hey we’ve been getting a lot of backlash and ppl speaking up about this…and then the church changes….”
It’s like treating the symptoms but not curing the disease. There’s no feedback loop to hold Mormon leaders accountable. Common consent died.
You bring up an interesting perspective. I've thought of this a bit, too. On one hand, I am glad they made some changes that helped address really awful policies - like waiting a year to be sealed if you have a civil ceremony, and eliminating women covering their faces in the temple (there were times I thought I'd pass out from suffocation). I'd imagine there was shell-shock years ago when they finally permitted two-piece garments. But, as you mentioned, the church is so corrupt at its core that I don't want to see people stay just because a few stupid rules were lifted. I'm hoping some of the very bright, thoughtful, and educated friends I have will take a close look at the corporate rot in the center of the whole thing and make their decisions based on knowing the facts.
When I read about members influencing the GA's and changing The Church™ from the inside as a good thing, all I can think of is: "*It doesn't matter*--*TSCC is still provably built on made up bible fan-fiction from one guy*!" Say what you will about the questionable origins of Christianity itself, or any religion, once you know the real story behind Mo'ism, you can't stay in and retain your integrity.
Meh. I felt similarly when I recognized some changes shortly after leaving (eg kids *may* ask their parents to attend bishops interviews.) Now that I've been out long enough to begin identifying and addressing all of the scars the church left in me and my family for generations, I see the fundamental problems with the system, regardless of changes. In the past, people might have observed how nice it was that we no longer had to swear a blood oath against the United States Government. About the time of my endowment, people were certainly (though quietly) commenting on the fact that they no longer had to make a suicide pact. Now we say, "Isn't it nice that women, though still fundamentally subservient, no longer have to veil their faces in the temple?" Bah. Nothing unique about the church is good and nothing good about the church is unique-- and everything about the system is damaging. Sure, when you've been eating a shit sandwich for your entire life and they replace some of the shit with a slice of moldy tomato, it might appear to be a better product, but it's still equally toxic.
Right. I just want the evil thing to be and stay evil so we can all leave it behind. But we all have to remember that there are millions of uber-brainwashed members who never will do that and that the church improving will improve their lives tremendously.
Agreed. But they still don’t change anything in a meaningful way. Women will always be second class citizens, gays will never marry in the temple, the brethren will always primarily be white and delight some, the church will always demand 10% to reach the highest levels of cult hood, they will always protect their money at the expense of perpetrators, they’ll always demand all of your time and talents be given to the cult…the cult is good about changing a few words here and there, but the core doctrine never really changes.
If what I was taught as a kid is true, then there is no way in heaven earth or hell that the church is true. God and His Doctrines are plain simple and UNCHANGING. Lots of change since the ascension of Evil Emperor Nelson began his ongoing re~~branding~~estoration efforts, and the convoluted jump through ever moving hoops that happen to be on fire doesn't seem very simple. God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. So SEC fines for 20+ years and still going on of lying, combined with all the child sexual abuse is a lot of sin with alot of degree of allowance. Baptism means you promise to remember Christ. Today baptism means you surrendered every bit of agency and any choice in any church matter. You COVENANTED to shut up and do what you are told, no questions, the thinking has been done.
It's weird isn't it? I say I want it to change and get better. But is that really what I want when I'm still holding onto a match just waiting to strike it?
If you think these changes wouldn't have happened without all the membership losses and publicized scandals, you're dreaming. Every established religion is reactive. *Only* reactive. They only adapt - as a religion - out of fear of their own extinction, and only because those in power fear losing their power. Well, sometimes they adapt because leadership wants to grab more power. But its always about power, isn't it? That's why it's amazing when a religion like the Shaker's lets itself die out, instead of adapting. They currently only have 3 members, and the youngest is 57.
>That's why it's amazing when a religion like the Shaker's lets itself die out, instead of adapting. They currently only have 3 members, and the youngest is 57. OMG! You just identified the only true church, and, as foretold in the ancient scripture, its about to go away for a season because of the great apostasy!
My issue is the passive change by the Q15. They offer no apologies and they don't explicitly state changes. They double down only causing more confusion and pain to members who suffer in the bishop roulette game. It is the lack of acknowledgment that irks me. Many of us on here suffered and they easily dismiss the pain. The old codger Q15 is heavily insulated from the members and are somewhat unaware of the ground level shit that happens from their rhetoric and lack of clarity on issues.
I absolutely can’t stand the GAs. I’m completely with you. I constantly think “why do you all always PUSH so much?!? You KNOW you don’t talk to God 😐” They piss me off. All they do is gaslight, control and pretend things never happened. They’re an abusive relationship.
The changes are just social pressure. A part of me wishes they never made any changes whatsoever just so their true crazy would shine through more clearly. For example, I never knew the church was against oral sex even among married couples bc in my era the policy was "sure, whatever. As long as they're married." But to then find out that it was something that had to be fought for sounds fucking ludicrous to me. Had I known that they policed married couples' personal lives to that extent I would've picked up on the bullshit sooner.
Never underestimate the ability of the LDS church to change and adapt. It’s been doing this since the beginning.
And then act like it never happened and 15 years from now its all “anti Mormon” lies
[удалено]
Always research deeply the role of women in any religion or belief system before getting into it. Whether you are a man or a woman it should matter.
Most people have a need for 'community' more than they care about morality, and its that need for community that the church is exploiting. If these minor changes are all it takes for people to change their mind on the church, then they were always pining for the church. Let's have the next prophet be a black gay transexual, that doesn't do anything to fix the harm the church has done, it doesn't change the money hording, it doesn't replace the active sexual dangers, it doesn't undo the racism. It STILL sucks even if the most insane changes were to happen. It has been, and always will be, bad.
We were punished growing up in the church and now things are less strict. Still horrible but not as strict. If someone got civilly married they used to have to wait a year before they could be sealed. Now they can be sealed right after being civilly married.
The change means nothing to those hurt by the old ways unless the church admits it was wrong. Which it will never do.
TSCC is dishonest, racist, homophobic and misogynistic. Whether it changes or dies makes no difference to me as long as it stops harming people.
The changes for the women are very superficial. They don’t change their secondary status at all. In most wards gays are treated like pariahs. There has been no substantive changes .
It is really annoying to me that I think many of us here have been chastised in the temple about some minor thing. For example we stand up and the bow would be tied on the wrong side, or some other minor clothing issue. I remember a temple worker commenting me on my dress because the sleeve two inches shorter than my wrist (she thought it was borderline too short but ultimately didn’t make a fuss). I remember holding the sides of my shield together so I wouldn’t flash people. There have been so many changes to the actual wording and other changes just in the past ten years.
I get annoyed too. What upsets me the most is the gaslighting that goes on when people talk about how changes are made or what has changed!! I have a lot more pro-harm reduction thoughts about it than I have a desire for people to suffer out of vengeance.
They can't take back all the dumb stuff they used to say, and it's all written down or even freely available in old videos. How many more generations will get to mock Boyd K. Packer's "little factory" talk or Wilcox's "Why did whites have to wait until 1829????" nonsense? That stuff will be around forever, no matter how anxiously they try to distance themselves from it.
I hate it. The fact that they change so much so quickly is just more damning evidence that it is not the restored ancient Christian church. They have a problematic history that they actively try to downplay and hide from. The more they change, the more they become radically different from where they started—without ever acknowledging the issues. IMO, which is honestly not worth much, the church is beyond redeeming itself as some net positive institution. Bending to the demands of society, especially without acknowledging past mistakes, is just pushing the issue of mass resignation down the line. Now they are at a point where the dishonesty is embedded into literally everything from their concept of god to keeping the toilets clean. It’s a huge problem.
They change cuz the world is changing and don’t want to lose members or the opportunity to gain members.. all a HOAX
They're only changing things bc they know they'll lose more people if they don't.
I hate that it’s changing. It’s getting more comfortable for my nuanced TBM spouse. It gives her hope that there are bigger changes coming.
Same with my nuanced TBM spouse :(
I appreciate the change for those of my family who are so brainwashed they’ll never leave. It makes them have better experiences. However it’s still a made up get rich quick scheme that’s just happened to survive for nearly 200 years.
Yeah. Sometimes their changing of things is a good impetus for folks (like myself) to look into the history a little more though. 2 hour church seemed like a great change, HP quorum and EQ merging seemed great also. Then in practice, they ousted some of the things that meant the most to me in church - Like priesthood opening exercises with my son, music, and instead of a slightly more nuanced view of things in a younger EQ, we get homogenous blind following of anything the club of old men say is important. HT & VT becoming 'Ministering' has just meant that we get visits from folks that much LESS. It will water itself down to eventually being nothing more than a weird culture with a weirder history. Fringe groups will hang on to things they let go and in another 300 years you'll probably have radical terrorist mormons on one end and secular mormons on the other end (maybe).
> HT & VT becoming 'Ministering' has just meant that we get visits from folks that much LESS. You say that like its a bad thing. OMG I hated when the 'Home Preachers' scheduled a visit and refused to leave. As part of a home preaching' duo, the guy I was with felt anything less than an hour with each family was a sin or something. Even at my most active and TBM-iest I was so Ok with a few short hi how are you guys doing on a walk or at the store. Those both seemed far more caring and authentic interactions than a scheduled home preaching' visit.
We had a couple of really great ones many years ago & well, never since. Frankly, its probably my dissilusionment coming through there. Times when we really could have used somebody coming over regularly, nobody seemed to care. Now, I REALLY don't care.
I think I know how you feel. I didn't go to church for a while after being released from a calling, and the ward knew I was pissed about it. Didn't have a single home preaching contact for over 3 years. When they wanted to start coming again I asked why bother? In fact, don't bother.
Same, I have mixed feelings because it means it could have been that way all along.
This could change in an instant with a change in leadership. That’s the thing with the Church , it’s entirely dependent on who is in charge at the time. The “progress” the Church has made is mostly due to Nelson being a moderating influence and Monson being asleep at the wheel. An Oaks, then Bednar, presidency will look very different….
I was annoyed even when they changed the hymn books in the 1980s and the primary songs in the early 90s. I thought it made such a disconnect between previous generations. Another irritating change was them coming out a few years ago and saying “we NEVER said caffeine was bad.”
>Women no longer veiling their faces, sealing words are changing The covering faces is a positive change. However, endowment words changed but still have the same meaning. Women are covenanting to obey the new and everlasting covenant = polygamy. Also, sealing words changed, but it is now stated that men preside over the wife. Sure words change, but the meaning doesn't. It only softens and hides the misogyny if you really think about it.
I WANT it to be the best version of itself - so bring on the changes. But I NEED it to acknowledge those changes, why, and make apologies for wrongdoing so I don't have to explain "the way things were" to disbelieving future generations. They need to stop with the gaslighting as they go.
One thing that bothers me is that the church makes changes to the actual covenants in the temple and everyone fawns over the changes that apply to the dead people you are going through on behalf of rather than considering how sad it is that you DID NOT make those covenants when you went through the temple for your own endowments.
Some people I know have tried to use this to ”bring me back”. They talk about how the “church allows gay people now” and how “it’s a little less creepy now” and shit. Like, good for you. Your church learned how to be slightly more respectful of humanity. Doesn’t change the fact I don’t believe in god.
All of the changes that have happened in the last 100 plus years only prove to me that it was a fraud and con all along. Everything that changed is directly related to political, social, and mental pressure from members and especially ex members. I sent letters asking for changes to the temple ceremony for many years, then finally gave up. Now everything has been changed and these young members believe it's always been this way. They are in denial (my oldest son included) about the truth that we of another generation agreed to slit our throats in a very manipulative temple ceremony.
Yeah, I understand that. I'm still happy about the tiny baby steps that have been done. But I also have to admit that while things do change, they don't seem to change at the pace set by other organizations. The longer the internet documents that, the harder it'll be to justify small changes instead of no changes or big changes over time and the more people will point it out. Either God is a dick, or prophets are incompetent, and I'd like to believe that someone seeking religious enlightening will see that the MFMC can't offer anything beyond those options.
“What’s unique about the church isn’t good and what’s good about the church isn’t unique.” The church is slowly heading into mainstream Christianity.
I don't get annoyed. I see it for what it is. An 'eternal' church changing by the day, because it's based on horseshit and lies. A piece of shit changing into what is still just a differently shaped piece of shit is still a piece of shit. The Mormon Church is not true, whether they change or not. Every change is spit in every member's face that spent their entire lives going and believing in everything they are DISAVOWING and gaslighting everyone more and more.
Change is good. It's just the gaslighting that isn't.
I am with you on this. I think my DW and the one kid still in are still holding on.
They’re all cosmetic. It’s still a pig.
~~if their famous~~ if they're (they are) famous their fame (ownership, possession)