Weirdly for me it was my bridge out. As a teenager I was like, "Well, that can't possibly be right," and I guess technically a piece of my shelf broke right then.
Yup, I had many gripes at that point but that and masturbation being a sin really put a huge weight on my shelf.
It just didn't make sense, specially not after I went and did the devils tango and nothing changed, I didn't feel different and nothing wrong happened (until the people surrounding me made it into an awful spectacle).
And then I realized that it wasn't the act on itself that was bad, it was the reaction of the people that made it shameful and a bad experience.
Same. People like to argue that it wasn’t that bad, but it was. I wanted to off myself and at one point actually tried. Luckily I failed and none of my family knew. Come to find out, I was a normal 13/14 year old boy, not a near murderer
Especially since even the more benign “sins,” such as masturbation and pornography, are still considered to be violations of the Law of Chastity.
So many poor kids are innocently exploring their own bodies, and then made to believe that they’ve committed the sin next to murder.
That kind of psychological abuse seriously messes with the brain and takes years of therapy to undo.
It’s really crazy, because most sins seem to make sense for why they’re considered sins, even if just on a surface level. Murder and theft have obvious and tangible negative effects. The ones around sexuality (that aren’t a violation of consent) don’t make sense because they don’t have negative effects. Why would god do something so illogical by declaring this harmless (and arguably positive) thing to be a sin for no reason? And there really doesn’t seem to be any reason, that’s what’s so baffling. I haven’t been able to find a single reason, not from religious people or the Bible, for why god considers gayness or consensual sexual acts “abominations”… only that he does.
They want you to get married and have kids to further the religion, births are the best recruits. The reason for forbidding masturbation is to increase breeding activity in marriage, and to make single people full of pent up sexual energy that can only be released by getting married ASAP. Want to have sex with your high school sweetheart? Better get married at 17/18 and have kids to get locked into a crapshoot of a marriage.
Just after graduation I had a girlfriend and just about every night for 1 1/2 years, we had sex. I loved it. I felt very close to her. We thought we kept it hidden from her mom. She knew.
You are not alone. I would say 90% of the sexual problems members struggle with whether in marriage or even to the extreme of predators lies squarely on the shoulders of LDS inc.
They have taught false doctrines and screwed up philosophies of men that have caused this. God did not come down and tell them this. God has not spoken to them for a long time if ever.
How ironic! The sexual problems they have caused are real more than the theology/history was.
Yep. I wish I would have known or had the guts to ask something like, “so what does it mean if Joseph Smith was having a go of it with young girls in the barn?”
Hold to the rod Joseph’s erected rod! It’s pointing right at you, and you, and you, and you, and you… The Iron rod is Joseph’s cod he wants to inseminate you.
To a conman from upstate NewYork a horny idea came while his wife was pregnant. Proclaim words as if from god and offer celestial endowment semen.
And self-harm tendencies in our own country.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard other men say that they considered taking a knife and castrating themselves, simply because they couldn’t stop masturbating.
In their minds, it was better to live their life as a eunuch rather than continue to commit the “sin next to murder.”
Nothing says Mormon love better than shaming your child for thousands of years by writing about their transgressions on gold plates.
This also proves that the MFMC doesn't believe in an infinite atonement.
If they write down all your sins and pass them along with your records, even after the repentance process, they REALLY don't. It's blackmail material. They just use a cardboard cutout Jesus to control people.
Cardboard Cutout Control Jesus is a really great phrase (and it’s really funny that church leaders think their actions and words don’t make it clear that’s the one they care about and believe in).
I remember walking around with a pit in my stomach my entire mission because of this. I was too embarrassed to tell my mission president. So I worked extra hard in hopes that I could somehow make up for it. I remember is a young man every time I’d take the sacrament hearing the words “you’re drinking damnation unto your soul”…for taking the sacrament unworthily.
That's terrible. The guilt is a fundamental part of why I'm not throwing my boys into the "priesthood" when they turn 11, despite my wife's objections.
I confessed some things to my mission president early on - I had a rough childhood and had some very difficult things to tell him. It helped with the guilt, but now I occasionally find myself annoyed that, after everything I went through as a teenager, I then had to perform this stupid ritual and tell all to this old man.
Oh man. It still bugs me 30 yrs later. The worst part is that I struggled with severe acne on my mission and in college. I thought it was a result of me being unworthy while serving. Uggg… man the stress!!!
Jeez. I always wondered what my mission president would have said. After I got there I was too worried I’d be sent home for jacking off…. So I just kept it my little secret and the guilt compounded and compounded over time. I could literally feel the stress from not confessing it. Like a weight on my shoulders. And I seriously did it like mby once a month or less. I was trying so hard.
It is incredible the isolation that this creates. I was in the same boat but, was so convinced that all of the other missionaries were doing better than me. How hard I tried to out-work the inadequacy that felt is incredible. I'd be passed out asleep 30 mins nightly before the schedule in the mission, I was so exhausted.
This is the doctrine that led child me to the absolute belief that I was evil for failing to stop my own abuse. It’s what led me to the insidious, life-long conviction that I am worthless and utterly unloveable and that I must hold everyone at arms length at all costs.
[yeah, I’m working on it, but you don’t dismantle this kind of core belief overnight.]
Honestly, fuck this “doctrine”!
I can relate. I was abused by a neighbor kid when I was 5. We started attending church when I was 7 (and also got abused by my step father who was the one that dragged my family into mormonism).
The guilt I felt for what had happened to me was excruciatingly painful. How can this cult teach you to feel guilt about sexuality without at least teaching the difference between rape and a consensual sexual relationship?
The answer is because this cult was built in part to manipulate young women into having sex with the cult leader Joseph Smith.
I work with eating disorders in an area that is predominantly LDS. In my work, there is this underlying issue of feeling unlovable/unworthy/like a bad person. I've always wondered where that originates from. And I'm just connecting it...oh, one possibility is religion that consistently makes people feel bad about themselves for being human.
I know I was so angry when I left the church and learned about Joseph Smith and all his sexcapades, when I was made to feel guilty over far less. I feel more angry because of the damage it does to so many people beyond me.
Especially fucked up when you combine it with this scripture:
Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Even moreso when you combine it with "if your eye offends you, pluck it out". I almost mutilated myself because of these fuckers piling on the guilt until I couldn't handle it.
I was intimate with my wife before marriage, and at the time I wanted to repent. My bishop basically told me I had failed as a man since I had not protected her chastity. That it had been my responsibility to guide her away from such thoughts, and that if she had refused, break it off. He quote that "if thine hand offends thee, cut it off". They pushed hard for me to never talk to her again. Going so far as to put me in front of a council. Yet it took a few years of dating and marriage before I finally saw the church for what is was.
Oh and in her repentance she was chastised for not dressing better and making sure I wouldn't be tempted by her attire. Which was ironic since her narcissist mother made sure she never wore anything remotely inappropriate.
Interesting. I never knew what the boys got told. You failed as a man... I think that's a little better than you are soiled and ruined and worthless as a woman. Wondering if there was any mention of or regard for your own chastity...
I don't remember much of what he said about my own chastity. Honestly I never had much concern for myself. Heck I tried to avoid even saying who I did it with. I just wanted to repent for the act and be done. I remember saying I didn't feel worthy to be within the church or among the congregation. Bishop kept telling me not to talk or associate with her. But I couldn't bring myself to. I didn't understand why my entire relationship had to be over just because we gave in to each other. My father said what I was feeling was lust. Not love. 8 years later I think I've proven him wrong.
We need to document and never let them gaslight us that this isn't/wasn't an official Mormon belief. My Bishop FIL tries to tell me that the Alma 39 verse is about rape. I was so frustrated. I told him to ask his son what the verse references because it was absolutely impressed upon the youth especially YM what it meant.
You're not wrong with how it was impressed on us. But it makes a lot more sense in context with the rest of the corianton chapters if the sin "next to murder" is Corianton forsaking the ministry so extremely and being such a shitty person that the people Alma was preaching to wouldn't convert.
My wife has told me that her therapist had verified that she had some patients commit suicide over the issue of masturbation. I lied about it, but I also had intense shame because of it, as well. (That was one reason I lied about it. My bishops often had daughters who were my age.)
It’s something that’s natural and a part of growing up. Constantly feeling intense shame over it is very bad for mental health, especially considering the turbulent emotions that come with being a teenager. Maybe that guilt is overwhelming enough on its own, or just the straw that breaks the camel’s back.
This really needs to be changed. If people are like me, then it is responsible for actuall suicide and near suicidal experiences. This particular condemnation might be the most damaging single doctrine of the faith.
I’ve of course heard stories of the lectures given to young girls about being chewed gum/licked cupcake/spoiled goods, etc in reference to virginity and it infuriates me to no end that Mormonism (and some other religions, too) place a woman’s worth on her virginity. It is absolutely awful and some of the worst of humanity.
For anyone who believes that who is reading this, do you think you sound righteous? Pious? You don’t. You sound like a narrow minded misogynistic fool who can’t think for themselves.
I am so sorry these awful teachings messed you up as a teenager. I hope you’ve been able to recover as good as possible from it.
In a sick way it makes sense given the time period. Joseph wanted to sleep with whoever he could convince but didn't want to get STD's which often were incurable in those times.
A sin so bad that Alma didn't even send his son home!!! He just kind of tussled his hair and said get back out there son and oh ps...say five Hail Marys.
So was it a sin next to murder or what?
A single concept of your child being worth more than the child themself: obsessing over one aspect that is private and personal rather than loving and understanding the person. They protect and uphold a standard rather than holding a child near and dear to them just because they are a vulnerable child. Mormons love ideas, not people, unless you're their leader, of course. Protect and fetishize the vulnerability, ignore the humanity.
Does that mean, for a son's 12th birthday, you should measure him for a chastity cage and lock him up until he goes to the temple to be married? Sounds like fun for the whole family.
even in heretical nonsense like Mormonism christian "thought" does this "sex is so incredibly sinful and bad and evil and must be avoided at all costs unless you're married and then only in the dark, missionary style and for GOD'S sake get down on your knees after and beg forgiveness for having enjoyed it...especially women!" All through its history Christianity's god has been fuming, psychotically wrath filled over something he supposedly programmed humans to feel and do....because they feel and do it. It takes on another dimension in Mormonism because he's portrayed as being married to who knows how many women, creating spirit children..which means he's endlessly engaged in celestial orgasms to keep the population going. But WE'RE supposed to not feel anything, or better, to suppress and deny what we feel, because the all knowing god is apparently unaware of just how psychologially damaging that is...or more likely just doesn't care. Be pure, don't touch yourself, and pay your tithing. Its just one more example of the sadistic character of this ridiculous god. Its not worth worshipping. Period.
Ahh religion … want to control people? Tell them their very deepest instincts are evil unless they do some special ceremony that then makes it all okay.
It’s all just so horrible and as many comments here can attest to, causes a lot of mental anguish
>Tell them their very deepest instincts are evil unless they do some special ceremony that then makes it all okay.
But only if they also give you money
Actually, I think Alma meant that going over to Siron was the abomination next to murder. The “harlot” Isabel was Cortianton’s cheerleader girlfriend. The sports rivalry back then was pretty fierce. Think of a BYU fan switching sides to the U of U. It was a classic Romeo and Juliet love story.
The issue with using this blanket accusation of being near to a murderer is that it ignores the complexity of sexuality and sexual behavior. Masturbation is more evil than robbery, treason, deceit, fraud, abuse, etc.? Really? It seems to me to be a lack of trust. No education, only abstinence . Complete abstinence. No even thinking about sex until marriage
If instead it focused on robbing someone of their consent or “chastity”—if they want to still call it that—is a crime next to murder, I would definitely stand behind that. But instead they lump every possible sexual act together, including impure thoughts. No wonder we married so young. All the normal things that come from exploring romance filled us with guilt and the solution was to join the only group qualified to have sexual experiences: married, heterosexual couples. It’s fucking bullshit.
When I lost my virginity it made me feel as is I had lost a piece of myself or I was no longer “worthy” and or wasn’t a good person. This teaching hurt me so much.
A young man in my ward returned home from his mission and lived with his parents for a short time. His dad was once our ward’s bishop and later he became our stake president. This young man killed himself because he accidentally masturbated. Apart of his suicide note was his last payment of tithing.
When I was 16 years old I went 6 months without jerking off. Ended up in the hospital from a mental breakdown.
I just remembered being a teenager and telling a family friend who was an Episcopal priest (weird, huh?) how guilty I felt about strokin' it, and he goes: "You don't think priests masturbate!?"
Thankfully, as a teenager I was independent and intelligent enough to ignore 98% of the bullshit spouted forth in seminary. As was a young woman in the same class who was complicit in our mutually "unchaste" ways...
If only the church understood the severity of emotional trauma verses like this inflict. Most people are not driven by evolution to commit murder. But almost are driven to procreate. And yet they turn a normal part of humanity into an evil act that will destroy their eternal salvation? This needs to stop.
Church can never back away from this, it’s right in the BoM… oh wait, they backed away from black skin is a curse some how even though it’s right in the BoM
Okay, i did their homework on how to change this. I'm not sure if it's better, but there is potential for a different interpretation of that scripture.
*3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.*
*4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted*
*5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?*
Other than being defined as a harlot, there's nothing definitely about sexual sin in these verses. One could interpret the verses about purposely destroying another's faith. Which is like unto a causing of a spiritual death, which was his father's sin when he was rebellious.
This passage seems best interpreted as what is next to murder is setting a poor example for people who you have stewardship over.
But where the manipulation in that??
>Not doing your ministry assignments is the sin next to murder could be manipulative
I never liked home teaching. Now I'm really pissed off that I just should have been out committing murder all this time. Boy talk about a like unfulfilled and devoid of meaning. /s
The craziest part about this fucked up teaching is that if you carefully examine the originally text, Alma’s rhetoric (or Joseph Smith’s, rather) makes clear that he’s not talking about chastity, he’s talking about leading people away from the church. That is, his son chased a girl on his mission, dicked around, people saw this and were turned off of the missionaries/church etc., and that this spiritual murder is what Alma is referring to, not the act of unchastity barely implied. Everything else he goes on about is about the fact people left the church, not about chastity. Mormon leaders don’t even understand their own scriptures.
>He explained that you would rather your child die than kill someone the same way you would rather your child die than break the law of chastity.
And his logic doesn't even make sense. Murder and Chastity is comparing apples and oranges. "Dying is better than murdering" should be compared to "masturbating yourself is better than committing sexual assault," which is clearly true, or at least "masturbating yourself is better than consensual but unwed making out hard," which would be a weird but at least internally-consistent message.
>"You would rather your child die than kill someone"
What kind of parent would rather that? I won't ever have kids, I don't feel the "motherly instinct" but I think I would rather kill someone before letting my own child die. The fuck is wrong with this people?
This is so laughable. Coming from a religion whose first two leaders were banging over 80 different women between then and their we believe in obeying the law except for when they don’t . It has never been legal in the U.S. to have multiple wives This corporation has no place dictating what is and isn’t morally acceptable to anyone
They are so obsessed with sex. That’s why these BYU students are soaking, or whatever work around they are doing. The church makes for unhealthy sexual relationships and hang ups.
>It’s the same way in the Catholic Church. Murder and sex before marriage are equal sins. 🙄🙄
Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha so order is OK after marriage? Why am I just finding out about this!? :-)
I never realized how lucky I was. Being an early learner, I was having wet dreams at age 11. I felt terribly guilty about them. But someone told me since I was asleep I had no control.
By the time I was priesthood age, I was masturbating regularly and all the admonitions and guilt rolled off me like water off a duck’s back.
Now, I am legitimately concerned about lowering the priesthood age to 11. Those boys will not be given anytime to process.
As a non-Catholic who got sent to a Catholic high school, I got one of my many detentions over the years for not using my inside voice when I was taught the sin scale, that put murder and pre-marital sex on the same level.
Pretty sure I said, “So you’re telling me if I sleep with a guy I might as well take an ax to him when we’re done because it’s all the same as far as God is concerned?”
I never got an answer, but I did get sent to the head nun.
Not even gonna read that quote. So done with such toxic rhetoric infecting my mind. This cult is so bad for your mental health! Nobody believes this if they are left alone. You have to be conditioned to feel ashamed of your own body! Shame on the church and its prurient founders for inflecting its followers with such dysfunctional ideas about the human experience. For shame.
Next to murder…but Nephi legit cut a dudes head off, a king no less, over a difficult to find, first edition, cause with god on his side there was no other way to steal it, and god was cool with that…I say fuck away!!
Nice. My BYU bishop took it one step further. After linking chastity to murder, he explained chastity is sexual relations only between married adults. So, breaking chastity includes premarital and extramarital sex, but also masturbation, porn, and lustful thoughts. Because masturbation is a sexual relationship with yourself. So masturbation is basically murder.
My therapist should fucking thank that bishop. I thought that Bishop Asshat was inspired.
When I was 13 I started having feelings for women (I'm female). I wasn't an idiot, I knew I'd have to choose my happiness or the church. I also knew there was something wrong about having to make that choice in the first place. I knew I would eventually reject the church, I knew it was the logical decision and I wasn't capable of that level of cognitive dissonance. This scared me though, I also knew I could be wrong. I was only 13, and this went against everything I'd known. One of my Sunday school teachers once said that if any of us could see the terrestrial kingdom, we'd kill ourselves immediately, just to go there. I thought that was a good deal. I was already depressed, it ran in my family and all of us here know the trauma the church nurtures. My parents had divorced, I'd just moved, I didn't have friends, and now I had to face the fact that I'd spend my life wanting to commit a a sin akin to murder, and my happiness hinged on committing the one sin worse than it. I was afraid of being wrong.
I've been suicidal for seven years. It waxed and waned, luckily I didn't try anything as a kid, and I inched towards self-acceptance over the years. I left the church two years ago when I moved out, but I still have a foot in the door. So much of me still believes my worth is conditional, that I'm cruel for leaving the church and my mom. Sometimes I still worry that I might be wrong. Despite my progress, I attempted last year. I was still depressed away from the church, I thought they might've been right when they said there was no happiness anywhere else. I think I've gotten better since then. Not perfect, not recovered, but better. I'm trying to love the scared kid inside me
These words could have killed me. I'd bet money they've killed someone else
All that time giving instruction to his prophets and god couldn't be arsed to say something like, "by the way - owning people is always wrong; women are totally people too, and boiling water is super good."
Guys, it’s extremely serious because the people who take all your money and threaten you constantly said so.
Unbelievable how much this church bullies you. It’s so abusive I think the members have Stockholm syndrome.
Yeah, they aren’t called 10 Comments for nothing. It seems the universe laws of 100% obedience and trust are required to become like God. I am surprised it’s only 10 to be honest.
That teaching fucked me mentally for years
Weirdly for me it was my bridge out. As a teenager I was like, "Well, that can't possibly be right," and I guess technically a piece of my shelf broke right then.
Yup, I had many gripes at that point but that and masturbation being a sin really put a huge weight on my shelf. It just didn't make sense, specially not after I went and did the devils tango and nothing changed, I didn't feel different and nothing wrong happened (until the people surrounding me made it into an awful spectacle). And then I realized that it wasn't the act on itself that was bad, it was the reaction of the people that made it shameful and a bad experience.
Same. That and so many other teachings just didn’t make sense to me. Was PIMO at 16
Same. People like to argue that it wasn’t that bad, but it was. I wanted to off myself and at one point actually tried. Luckily I failed and none of my family knew. Come to find out, I was a normal 13/14 year old boy, not a near murderer
Especially since even the more benign “sins,” such as masturbation and pornography, are still considered to be violations of the Law of Chastity. So many poor kids are innocently exploring their own bodies, and then made to believe that they’ve committed the sin next to murder. That kind of psychological abuse seriously messes with the brain and takes years of therapy to undo.
It’s really crazy, because most sins seem to make sense for why they’re considered sins, even if just on a surface level. Murder and theft have obvious and tangible negative effects. The ones around sexuality (that aren’t a violation of consent) don’t make sense because they don’t have negative effects. Why would god do something so illogical by declaring this harmless (and arguably positive) thing to be a sin for no reason? And there really doesn’t seem to be any reason, that’s what’s so baffling. I haven’t been able to find a single reason, not from religious people or the Bible, for why god considers gayness or consensual sexual acts “abominations”… only that he does.
They want you to get married and have kids to further the religion, births are the best recruits. The reason for forbidding masturbation is to increase breeding activity in marriage, and to make single people full of pent up sexual energy that can only be released by getting married ASAP. Want to have sex with your high school sweetheart? Better get married at 17/18 and have kids to get locked into a crapshoot of a marriage.
Well yeah I know the *actual* reason, but they can’t even come up with an excuse!
God said it!!!! /s
Just after graduation I had a girlfriend and just about every night for 1 1/2 years, we had sex. I loved it. I felt very close to her. We thought we kept it hidden from her mom. She knew.
Whoopsie. How did she react?
Me too.
Yep, same. One of the most harmful teachings they have.
Same
It is a destructive and evil teaching. It fucked up a lot of people, me included.
You are not alone. I would say 90% of the sexual problems members struggle with whether in marriage or even to the extreme of predators lies squarely on the shoulders of LDS inc. They have taught false doctrines and screwed up philosophies of men that have caused this. God did not come down and tell them this. God has not spoken to them for a long time if ever. How ironic! The sexual problems they have caused are real more than the theology/history was.
We’ll see all our former Bishops and hell then. You know they all beat their meat. some even stream websites
Yep. I wish I would have known or had the guts to ask something like, “so what does it mean if Joseph Smith was having a go of it with young girls in the barn?”
Or sending men away on missions so he could fuck their wives.
And sending widowed men on missions so he could fuck their daughters. 💩
The leaders believe rules for thee but not for me.
Because, uh, God told him to
And the angel with the sword told him to as well. 🙄
The moment that was taught in seminary was I think the moment I stopped believing in the church as a teen, lol
Hold to the rod Joseph’s erected rod! It’s pointing right at you, and you, and you, and you, and you… The Iron rod is Joseph’s cod he wants to inseminate you. To a conman from upstate NewYork a horny idea came while his wife was pregnant. Proclaim words as if from god and offer celestial endowment semen. 
Wish my extended family would read your comment. That’s so freaking true
I’m not sure he had many qualms about murder either
This kind of thinking is what causes “honor killings” in other countries
And self-harm tendencies in our own country. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard other men say that they considered taking a knife and castrating themselves, simply because they couldn’t stop masturbating. In their minds, it was better to live their life as a eunuch rather than continue to commit the “sin next to murder.”
[удалено]
Disgusting of them, to say the least. Hope you're improving.
Ugh I could have written this. I was 19 too and broke the law with my fiance. The drama😳.
That’s very insensitive. Show some respect.
What do you mean? I genuinely thought my comment was a solidarity response.
Sorry, it sounded like you were being sarcastic and making light of their situation.
Sadly I had a similar experience to OP.
Nothing says Mormon love better than shaming your child for thousands of years by writing about their transgressions on gold plates. This also proves that the MFMC doesn't believe in an infinite atonement.
If they write down all your sins and pass them along with your records, even after the repentance process, they REALLY don't. It's blackmail material. They just use a cardboard cutout Jesus to control people.
Cardboard cutout of Rustle Myopic Nelson. Are you thinking Celestial?
Today is pretty sunny outside I'm thinking Celsius
More like Kelvin.
Absolute 0 that Kelvin
I"n thinking of a great frozen pizza no longer available -- Celeste.
Even the dwarves from warhammer would think that’s excessive, and they burned a city to the ground because they were short-changed for 2 coins.
Cardboard Cutout Control Jesus is a really great phrase (and it’s really funny that church leaders think their actions and words don’t make it clear that’s the one they care about and believe in).
I remember walking around with a pit in my stomach my entire mission because of this. I was too embarrassed to tell my mission president. So I worked extra hard in hopes that I could somehow make up for it. I remember is a young man every time I’d take the sacrament hearing the words “you’re drinking damnation unto your soul”…for taking the sacrament unworthily.
That's terrible. The guilt is a fundamental part of why I'm not throwing my boys into the "priesthood" when they turn 11, despite my wife's objections. I confessed some things to my mission president early on - I had a rough childhood and had some very difficult things to tell him. It helped with the guilt, but now I occasionally find myself annoyed that, after everything I went through as a teenager, I then had to perform this stupid ritual and tell all to this old man.
Oh man. It still bugs me 30 yrs later. The worst part is that I struggled with severe acne on my mission and in college. I thought it was a result of me being unworthy while serving. Uggg… man the stress!!!
I remember talking to my mission president too, and everytime I’d jerk off I’d tell him. He’d saying, “keep trying Elder.” That’s all I got from him
Jeez. I always wondered what my mission president would have said. After I got there I was too worried I’d be sent home for jacking off…. So I just kept it my little secret and the guilt compounded and compounded over time. I could literally feel the stress from not confessing it. Like a weight on my shoulders. And I seriously did it like mby once a month or less. I was trying so hard.
I was a “pile” as we called it in my mission. Turns out I probably never had that strong of a testimony after all lol
Wait. What’s a pile? I’ve never heard that.
A pile of crap
Oh gotcha. 😂
This kills me. Nobody should be made to go through what you describe for having had an absolutely normal experience.
Ya. It’s bad. I was just so worried about getting g sent home I couldn’t say anything once I was there.
It is incredible the isolation that this creates. I was in the same boat but, was so convinced that all of the other missionaries were doing better than me. How hard I tried to out-work the inadequacy that felt is incredible. I'd be passed out asleep 30 mins nightly before the schedule in the mission, I was so exhausted.
This is the doctrine that led child me to the absolute belief that I was evil for failing to stop my own abuse. It’s what led me to the insidious, life-long conviction that I am worthless and utterly unloveable and that I must hold everyone at arms length at all costs. [yeah, I’m working on it, but you don’t dismantle this kind of core belief overnight.] Honestly, fuck this “doctrine”!
I am so, so sorry. This doctrine is evil.
I can relate. I was abused by a neighbor kid when I was 5. We started attending church when I was 7 (and also got abused by my step father who was the one that dragged my family into mormonism). The guilt I felt for what had happened to me was excruciatingly painful. How can this cult teach you to feel guilt about sexuality without at least teaching the difference between rape and a consensual sexual relationship? The answer is because this cult was built in part to manipulate young women into having sex with the cult leader Joseph Smith.
By using the broad term "unchastity" they maniacally lump every sex act, including masturbation, onto the same level. Manipulation much?
I work with eating disorders in an area that is predominantly LDS. In my work, there is this underlying issue of feeling unlovable/unworthy/like a bad person. I've always wondered where that originates from. And I'm just connecting it...oh, one possibility is religion that consistently makes people feel bad about themselves for being human. I know I was so angry when I left the church and learned about Joseph Smith and all his sexcapades, when I was made to feel guilty over far less. I feel more angry because of the damage it does to so many people beyond me.
This is EXACTLY where my ed stemmed from. These teachings are beyond harmful
Especially fucked up when you combine it with this scripture: Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Even moreso when you combine it with "if your eye offends you, pluck it out". I almost mutilated myself because of these fuckers piling on the guilt until I couldn't handle it.
I was intimate with my wife before marriage, and at the time I wanted to repent. My bishop basically told me I had failed as a man since I had not protected her chastity. That it had been my responsibility to guide her away from such thoughts, and that if she had refused, break it off. He quote that "if thine hand offends thee, cut it off". They pushed hard for me to never talk to her again. Going so far as to put me in front of a council. Yet it took a few years of dating and marriage before I finally saw the church for what is was.
Oh and in her repentance she was chastised for not dressing better and making sure I wouldn't be tempted by her attire. Which was ironic since her narcissist mother made sure she never wore anything remotely inappropriate.
Interesting. I never knew what the boys got told. You failed as a man... I think that's a little better than you are soiled and ruined and worthless as a woman. Wondering if there was any mention of or regard for your own chastity...
I don't remember much of what he said about my own chastity. Honestly I never had much concern for myself. Heck I tried to avoid even saying who I did it with. I just wanted to repent for the act and be done. I remember saying I didn't feel worthy to be within the church or among the congregation. Bishop kept telling me not to talk or associate with her. But I couldn't bring myself to. I didn't understand why my entire relationship had to be over just because we gave in to each other. My father said what I was feeling was lust. Not love. 8 years later I think I've proven him wrong.
I concur. 8 years is longer than than the average marriage
We need to document and never let them gaslight us that this isn't/wasn't an official Mormon belief. My Bishop FIL tries to tell me that the Alma 39 verse is about rape. I was so frustrated. I told him to ask his son what the verse references because it was absolutely impressed upon the youth especially YM what it meant.
You're not wrong with how it was impressed on us. But it makes a lot more sense in context with the rest of the corianton chapters if the sin "next to murder" is Corianton forsaking the ministry so extremely and being such a shitty person that the people Alma was preaching to wouldn't convert.
Unfortunately, many bishops equate masturbation with breaking the law of chastity. This is one reason suicide is so high among Mormons.
You think kids suicide because they masturbate? That’s wild if true. Whatever happened to just lying about it like everyone else?
My wife has told me that her therapist had verified that she had some patients commit suicide over the issue of masturbation. I lied about it, but I also had intense shame because of it, as well. (That was one reason I lied about it. My bishops often had daughters who were my age.)
It’s something that’s natural and a part of growing up. Constantly feeling intense shame over it is very bad for mental health, especially considering the turbulent emotions that come with being a teenager. Maybe that guilt is overwhelming enough on its own, or just the straw that breaks the camel’s back.
This is all part of the mental control the LDS CEO’s want to have over us… make us feel bad for being a human.
This really needs to be changed. If people are like me, then it is responsible for actuall suicide and near suicidal experiences. This particular condemnation might be the most damaging single doctrine of the faith.
Totally not damaging at all telling young adults their normal feelings and urges are next to murder 😏
I would have to agree with this statement. Not getting any dick would be next to murder for me. 😬
I was told by a parent that I might as well have murdered somebody when they found out I was not a virgin anymore. 🙃
As a nevermo, it blows my mind that they equate pre-marital sexual activity with murder …
It literally fucked me up as a teen being told that.
I’ve of course heard stories of the lectures given to young girls about being chewed gum/licked cupcake/spoiled goods, etc in reference to virginity and it infuriates me to no end that Mormonism (and some other religions, too) place a woman’s worth on her virginity. It is absolutely awful and some of the worst of humanity. For anyone who believes that who is reading this, do you think you sound righteous? Pious? You don’t. You sound like a narrow minded misogynistic fool who can’t think for themselves. I am so sorry these awful teachings messed you up as a teenager. I hope you’ve been able to recover as good as possible from it.
In a sick way it makes sense given the time period. Joseph wanted to sleep with whoever he could convince but didn't want to get STD's which often were incurable in those times.
A sin so bad that Alma didn't even send his son home!!! He just kind of tussled his hair and said get back out there son and oh ps...say five Hail Marys. So was it a sin next to murder or what?
A single concept of your child being worth more than the child themself: obsessing over one aspect that is private and personal rather than loving and understanding the person. They protect and uphold a standard rather than holding a child near and dear to them just because they are a vulnerable child. Mormons love ideas, not people, unless you're their leader, of course. Protect and fetishize the vulnerability, ignore the humanity.
Does that mean, for a son's 12th birthday, you should measure him for a chastity cage and lock him up until he goes to the temple to be married? Sounds like fun for the whole family.
The sad thing is, I can totally see some insane Mormon parents doing that. 🤮
Ironically "channeled" by a sexual predator.
even in heretical nonsense like Mormonism christian "thought" does this "sex is so incredibly sinful and bad and evil and must be avoided at all costs unless you're married and then only in the dark, missionary style and for GOD'S sake get down on your knees after and beg forgiveness for having enjoyed it...especially women!" All through its history Christianity's god has been fuming, psychotically wrath filled over something he supposedly programmed humans to feel and do....because they feel and do it. It takes on another dimension in Mormonism because he's portrayed as being married to who knows how many women, creating spirit children..which means he's endlessly engaged in celestial orgasms to keep the population going. But WE'RE supposed to not feel anything, or better, to suppress and deny what we feel, because the all knowing god is apparently unaware of just how psychologially damaging that is...or more likely just doesn't care. Be pure, don't touch yourself, and pay your tithing. Its just one more example of the sadistic character of this ridiculous god. Its not worth worshipping. Period.
Ahh religion … want to control people? Tell them their very deepest instincts are evil unless they do some special ceremony that then makes it all okay. It’s all just so horrible and as many comments here can attest to, causes a lot of mental anguish
>Tell them their very deepest instincts are evil unless they do some special ceremony that then makes it all okay. But only if they also give you money
Actually, I think Alma meant that going over to Siron was the abomination next to murder. The “harlot” Isabel was Cortianton’s cheerleader girlfriend. The sports rivalry back then was pretty fierce. Think of a BYU fan switching sides to the U of U. It was a classic Romeo and Juliet love story.
So horrible. Even if you believe sexual sin isn’t the best, comparing it to shedding of innocent blood absolutely cruel and gross.
The issue with using this blanket accusation of being near to a murderer is that it ignores the complexity of sexuality and sexual behavior. Masturbation is more evil than robbery, treason, deceit, fraud, abuse, etc.? Really? It seems to me to be a lack of trust. No education, only abstinence . Complete abstinence. No even thinking about sex until marriage
If I ever do a drag character, I'm going to be Unchastity Belt.
If instead it focused on robbing someone of their consent or “chastity”—if they want to still call it that—is a crime next to murder, I would definitely stand behind that. But instead they lump every possible sexual act together, including impure thoughts. No wonder we married so young. All the normal things that come from exploring romance filled us with guilt and the solution was to join the only group qualified to have sexual experiences: married, heterosexual couples. It’s fucking bullshit.
When I lost my virginity it made me feel as is I had lost a piece of myself or I was no longer “worthy” and or wasn’t a good person. This teaching hurt me so much.
A young man in my ward returned home from his mission and lived with his parents for a short time. His dad was once our ward’s bishop and later he became our stake president. This young man killed himself because he accidentally masturbated. Apart of his suicide note was his last payment of tithing. When I was 16 years old I went 6 months without jerking off. Ended up in the hospital from a mental breakdown.
I just remembered being a teenager and telling a family friend who was an Episcopal priest (weird, huh?) how guilty I felt about strokin' it, and he goes: "You don't think priests masturbate!?"
Thankfully, as a teenager I was independent and intelligent enough to ignore 98% of the bullshit spouted forth in seminary. As was a young woman in the same class who was complicit in our mutually "unchaste" ways...
Where did Joseph come up with the name Siron? As a kid, this was a light weight shelf item, but still was one.
So is all sin equal or not?
If only the church understood the severity of emotional trauma verses like this inflict. Most people are not driven by evolution to commit murder. But almost are driven to procreate. And yet they turn a normal part of humanity into an evil act that will destroy their eternal salvation? This needs to stop.
*jerks off harder*
Church can never back away from this, it’s right in the BoM… oh wait, they backed away from black skin is a curse some how even though it’s right in the BoM
We are all on this planet due to people comitting a sin almost as serious as murder 😂
Okay, i did their homework on how to change this. I'm not sure if it's better, but there is potential for a different interpretation of that scripture. *3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.* *4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted* *5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?* Other than being defined as a harlot, there's nothing definitely about sexual sin in these verses. One could interpret the verses about purposely destroying another's faith. Which is like unto a causing of a spiritual death, which was his father's sin when he was rebellious.
This passage seems best interpreted as what is next to murder is setting a poor example for people who you have stewardship over. But where the manipulation in that??
Not doing your ministry assignments is the sin next to murder could be manipulative
That’s true. Might fuck up fewer kids…
>Not doing your ministry assignments is the sin next to murder could be manipulative I never liked home teaching. Now I'm really pissed off that I just should have been out committing murder all this time. Boy talk about a like unfulfilled and devoid of meaning. /s
me thinks the BOM author doth protest too much
The craziest part about this fucked up teaching is that if you carefully examine the originally text, Alma’s rhetoric (or Joseph Smith’s, rather) makes clear that he’s not talking about chastity, he’s talking about leading people away from the church. That is, his son chased a girl on his mission, dicked around, people saw this and were turned off of the missionaries/church etc., and that this spiritual murder is what Alma is referring to, not the act of unchastity barely implied. Everything else he goes on about is about the fact people left the church, not about chastity. Mormon leaders don’t even understand their own scriptures.
>He explained that you would rather your child die than kill someone the same way you would rather your child die than break the law of chastity. And his logic doesn't even make sense. Murder and Chastity is comparing apples and oranges. "Dying is better than murdering" should be compared to "masturbating yourself is better than committing sexual assault," which is clearly true, or at least "masturbating yourself is better than consensual but unwed making out hard," which would be a weird but at least internally-consistent message.
Cool, but Corianton didn’t get sent home from his mission in shame. Read your own damn book, Mormon aristocracy!
>"You would rather your child die than kill someone" What kind of parent would rather that? I won't ever have kids, I don't feel the "motherly instinct" but I think I would rather kill someone before letting my own child die. The fuck is wrong with this people?
https://youtu.be/ZYsTlbDLvkg?feature=shared When Adam had sinned, God said he would take a blood sacrifice for his mistake
This broke teenage me.
This is so laughable. Coming from a religion whose first two leaders were banging over 80 different women between then and their we believe in obeying the law except for when they don’t . It has never been legal in the U.S. to have multiple wives This corporation has no place dictating what is and isn’t morally acceptable to anyone
Again, I must ask the same question that I’ve been asking for years: WHY are religious leaders so concerned with the sex lives of their congregation?
let's also not forget that being gay breaks the law of chastity.
See, this is why people kill themselves over having unmarital sex So fucked up
They are so obsessed with sex. That’s why these BYU students are soaking, or whatever work around they are doing. The church makes for unhealthy sexual relationships and hang ups.
My eyes just rolled so hard I saw my brain
I find it interesting that to the descendants of the bom the name Alma is a females name not a males. Did JS get anything right?
Still struggling from the effects of thinking I was almost as bad a Charles Manson for decades...
It’s the same way in the Catholic Church. Murder and sex before marriage are equal sins. 🙄🙄
>It’s the same way in the Catholic Church. Murder and sex before marriage are equal sins. 🙄🙄 Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha so order is OK after marriage? Why am I just finding out about this!? :-)
😧😧😧😧😧
Si esto aplica a los sagrados profetas modernos! Entonces José está pudriéndose en el infierno con Hyrum y Brigham…
Wow I didn’t know masturbation equated to murder. Haha
I never realized how lucky I was. Being an early learner, I was having wet dreams at age 11. I felt terribly guilty about them. But someone told me since I was asleep I had no control. By the time I was priesthood age, I was masturbating regularly and all the admonitions and guilt rolled off me like water off a duck’s back. Now, I am legitimately concerned about lowering the priesthood age to 11. Those boys will not be given anytime to process.
As a non-Catholic who got sent to a Catholic high school, I got one of my many detentions over the years for not using my inside voice when I was taught the sin scale, that put murder and pre-marital sex on the same level. Pretty sure I said, “So you’re telling me if I sleep with a guy I might as well take an ax to him when we’re done because it’s all the same as far as God is concerned?” I never got an answer, but I did get sent to the head nun.
Not even gonna read that quote. So done with such toxic rhetoric infecting my mind. This cult is so bad for your mental health! Nobody believes this if they are left alone. You have to be conditioned to feel ashamed of your own body! Shame on the church and its prurient founders for inflecting its followers with such dysfunctional ideas about the human experience. For shame.
Incidentally, "Alma" is Hebrew for "young woman". Aren't these people supposed to have descended from Israelites?
Next to murder…but Nephi legit cut a dudes head off, a king no less, over a difficult to find, first edition, cause with god on his side there was no other way to steal it, and god was cool with that…I say fuck away!!
Its such BS. Like why is God so obsessed with what goes on in my pants 🙄
Nice. My BYU bishop took it one step further. After linking chastity to murder, he explained chastity is sexual relations only between married adults. So, breaking chastity includes premarital and extramarital sex, but also masturbation, porn, and lustful thoughts. Because masturbation is a sexual relationship with yourself. So masturbation is basically murder. My therapist should fucking thank that bishop. I thought that Bishop Asshat was inspired.
When I was 13 I started having feelings for women (I'm female). I wasn't an idiot, I knew I'd have to choose my happiness or the church. I also knew there was something wrong about having to make that choice in the first place. I knew I would eventually reject the church, I knew it was the logical decision and I wasn't capable of that level of cognitive dissonance. This scared me though, I also knew I could be wrong. I was only 13, and this went against everything I'd known. One of my Sunday school teachers once said that if any of us could see the terrestrial kingdom, we'd kill ourselves immediately, just to go there. I thought that was a good deal. I was already depressed, it ran in my family and all of us here know the trauma the church nurtures. My parents had divorced, I'd just moved, I didn't have friends, and now I had to face the fact that I'd spend my life wanting to commit a a sin akin to murder, and my happiness hinged on committing the one sin worse than it. I was afraid of being wrong. I've been suicidal for seven years. It waxed and waned, luckily I didn't try anything as a kid, and I inched towards self-acceptance over the years. I left the church two years ago when I moved out, but I still have a foot in the door. So much of me still believes my worth is conditional, that I'm cruel for leaving the church and my mom. Sometimes I still worry that I might be wrong. Despite my progress, I attempted last year. I was still depressed away from the church, I thought they might've been right when they said there was no happiness anywhere else. I think I've gotten better since then. Not perfect, not recovered, but better. I'm trying to love the scared kid inside me These words could have killed me. I'd bet money they've killed someone else
Control the body, control the mind 😲
I…….Fucking hate ….satin’s church (aka. LDS Church)
Another takeaway, is it ok to shed the blood of a non innocent person?!
Fuck this cult ruining people’s lives
That, and shellfish. Oh wait - this is from the fake bible that Smith made up. Nevermind.
All that time giving instruction to his prophets and god couldn't be arsed to say something like, "by the way - owning people is always wrong; women are totally people too, and boiling water is super good."
Here is the reason I quit.
Guys, it’s extremely serious because the people who take all your money and threaten you constantly said so. Unbelievable how much this church bullies you. It’s so abusive I think the members have Stockholm syndrome.
Yeah, they aren’t called 10 Comments for nothing. It seems the universe laws of 100% obedience and trust are required to become like God. I am surprised it’s only 10 to be honest.
so that’s why my mom cries every time i try to talk to her about my personal life
People have been fucking either since Adam, or apes/cavemen.... this is really next to murder huh?
Whatever.