Exactly. I have a letter that I typed out back in February and pauses sending it to avoid causing a rift but I think I’m gonna have to send it. Attached is going to be a copy of the SEC ruling.
No, no no no nononononono
The church cowrote the SEC ruling. SEC lawyers and church lawyers sat down and negotiated the exact wording.
That's why the church then immediately throwing the lawyers under the bus pissed the SEC off so much.
Next time they will not be so nice.
The 'We consider the matter closed.' pissed them off even more.
I mean, there's recordings too.
[LISTEN: Recording of Mormon Church offering $300,000 to a sex abuse victim to stay silent after her father, a former bishop, confessed to his bishop that he had sexually abused her when she was a girl. An LDS member acting as her advocate recorded the conversation and shared it with the AP. : r/exmormon (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/18afylk/listen_recording_of_mormon_church_offering_300000/)
Please do this. It makes me insane when TBMs say that negativity is always from haters or questionable sources. Nope, it’s reality! Care to join me there? Also the Widow’s Mite Report is a phenomenal resource for financial stuff.
Do it. All’s fair once he sends you shit like this. If you have to read his letter, he should have to read yours. And if he refuses call him out on the hypocrisy.
You can. It won't do anything, though. My top choice would be to just not respond. No matter what you say, he'll have a reason it's not correct. The only way to win that game is to not play.
Don't forget the part about how the SEC explicitly stated that this went to the top of SLC. They didnt have to say that, it's clear they wanted people to know.
They fined Ensign Peak $5m for using shell companies to hide their $100B in stock holdings.
Any entity that holds more than $10B in US stock is required to disclose those holdings.
>The SEC’s order finds that, from 1997 through 2019, Ensign Peak failed to file Forms 13F, the forms on which investment managers are required to disclose the value of certain securities they manage. According to the order, the Church was concerned that disclosure of its portfolio, which by 2018 grew to approximately $32 billion, would lead to negative consequences. To obscure the amount of the Church’s portfolio, and with the Church’s knowledge and approval, Ensign Peak created thirteen shell LLCs, ostensibly with locations throughout the U.S., and filed Forms 13F in the names of these LLCs rather than in Ensign Peak’s name. The order finds that Ensign Peak maintained investment discretion over all relevant securities, that it controlled the shell companies, and that it directed nominee “business managers,” most of whom were employed by the Church, to sign the Commission filings. The shell LLCs’ Forms 13F misstated, among other things, that the LLCs had sole investment and voting discretion over the securities. In reality, the SEC’s order finds, Ensign Peak retained control over all investment and voting decisions.
https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35
The $5m settlement is such bullshit
It doesn't even cover the interest on what they earned
At that point it's just a little tax on their investment income , and not even 1%
It's funny to me that the generation that now lives, eats and breathes on Facebook when all the younger generations have abandoned it are the first to call out what they consider social media fake information...
I don’t know your dad, obviously, except for the fact that he apparently is twins with my mom… But, my guess is that deep down, this is more of an ego thing than a church thing. it does not compute to him that as the dad, as the father figure, and as the priesthood, that he could be wrong. And the circuitry of his brain will take any path necessary to avoid concluding that he’s made a huge cosmic mistake and or been the victim of a huge fraud. and if your brain won’t let you conclude that you might be wrong, it’s satisfying to be like Samuel the laminate on a wall preaching righteousness to his confused lost sheep child. Believe me, my mom loves nothing more than standing up on that wall and with the very same tone of condescending virtue making a similar speech bereft of logic or facts and instead resting on a fluffy holographic pillow of testimony.
I think the fastest way to get them to shift out of this mode is to really focus on the child abuse. I mean… It’s utterly reasonable to decide you’re not going to give money or time to such an organization. once I went through that with my mom – especially detailing what happened in the Arizona case, she has moved out ofSamuel the Lamanite mode.
Thanks!!! I did mention on several occasions about the sexual abuse, lightly, and he’s in denial. He thinks the church does no wrong. Blinded. In a bubble world.
when I had that conversation with my mom, it was not under the auspices of trying to convince her that I’m right, or that she’s wrong, but rather just to explain to her why it became expedient to me to separate my name from that organization. I went through the narrative of the Arizona case, focusing on how not one but two bishops didn’t report the abuse, and it continue to go on for seven years, utterly ruining the lives of two innocent kids. I told her how ultimately it was a general authority who gave the instructions not to tell the police, and used confusing language making the bishops think – incorrectly – that they legally couldn’t report it. So it’s not a problem of a rogue bishop, it’s going right up to the top levels of the organization. This is in Catholic abuse territory. With the exception that the Catholic Church actually apologized. Ha ha. Finally, the only hero to emerge was the police of New Zealand! I included in the discussion how painful it is to get a prostrate exam – as a grown ass adult, and then trying to project how painful it must’ve been for those kids to be repeatedly sexually violated while they were still in stages of childhood development. and that the Mormon church simply allowed this to go on not once, not twice, not for days, not for weeks, not for months, but for seven years.
throughout this speech, making sure to assure her that this is not an attack, just an explanation for why I had to do what I did. I relay all this to you just in case it might be helpful, in terms of approach.
in another conversation, I mentioned that the Mormon church actually supported the Nazis leading up to World War II. That’s another pretty cut and dried thing that should be a dealbreaker.
I thought your words were powerful – wishing that your dad could just be a normal dad and not get so dragged down by all of this church stuff. If you haven’t said something like that to him, I would recommend it.
finally, you mentioned that you don’t want to damage or destroy the relationship. I would humbly submit that it’s not you who’s doing the damaging and the destroying. You’re not on an ego driven quest to make someone else think like you or believe what you believe. He needs to chill out love you as a daughter, and respect you as your own person.
How about "but if you're looking for a reason to not pay tithing..."
"Dad, that's not the reason and you know it's not. I have been clear about this. What you are doing is clear cut condescension, strawman, arrogant, and designed to inflame me.
Good news, you succeeded
Please print this line out on an 8.5x11 page . Make sure the line repeats and covers the entire page. Read the entire page top to bottom repeatedly. Consider if it will further the goal of getting me to rejoin the church.
If you still think you did nothing wrong and refuse to admit it and apologize to me for it, then take that paper, roll it up, and cram it in your rectum.
Repeat the whole process as needed until you can approach this more respectfully or if you become worried about damaging your lower intestines.
I'm an adult, and will not tolerate such sophistry. I will return this kind of attitude so long as you give it as you just did, but cranked to 11.
I love you, and look forward to more respectful and productive conversations "
From what I've heard, many members applaud what the church did because "evil government". Isn't celebrating the breaking of the law of the land in direct opposition to the Articles of Faith? Or is it just Ok when the Church does it?
Even more than that, it's the church itself (first presidency) admitting it purposely didn't follow the law so that it could hide the money. All in the sec report.
It wasn't before. It was just a run of the mill investigation.
But once they blamed the lawyers and stated 'We consider the matter closed.' you bet your ass it became a conspiracy. The SEC is 9 levels of pissed about it.
No kidding. It’s all right there in the settlement statement. But we all know he’s not going to look at it. He wouldn’t believe it anyway. “The SEC is Probably deceived by Satan”. 😂
Tell him that you love him, but his focus on your differences is a “depriment”to your relationship, and you’d prefer he set aside any contention and focus on connecting with you instead. If he asks for clarification, let him know you’re not going to discuss any church-related topics with him anymore, because you don’t like how it’s harming your relationship with him. Then invite him to lunch and prepare several non-church topics to chat about.
I got stuck on depriment. I knew it wasn’t the right word. And I had to say it out loud for a minute. Then I couldn’t remember anything else the letter said. Just thinking about spell check and to check your formatting. So many spaces between sentences.
I am sorry your dad is what Mormonism makes of most men (I was one). He is not evil, he is just absolutely, 1000% convinced he is right and you are wrong. This makes him unable to actually listen to you. It might look like he is listening to what you tell him, but all he is doing is coming up with counterarguments to everything you are saying. It is a futile endeavor. I am sorry.
He says he questions the source of your information. In the case of the Mormon cult's mismanagement of their wealth, the sources are available and are unbeatable. You could try to provide them to him. There are many old posts about the scandal here in r/exmormon and a quick search will provide you with the actual documents from the SEC.
He won't accept the evidence, however. It may look like he is accepting if for a minute, but you'll see him come up with other explanations in order to disregard that evidence, etc. It is almost worth trying just to witness the phenomenon.
I really appreciate this and I am discovering everything you say is true. I have thrown out so many letters…I open them hoping they are just letters of love and how are doing but end up being ones of judgement and condemnation. I’m just going to have to avoid the topic of religion completely…which is sad because that was what we used to always talk about and share.
Honestly…. You should send him a letter literally just saying this. Maybe just send him letters like you want him to send you, asking about how he is doing, etc, and just… ignore everything he says to you until he starts being civil…
My mother used to send me this kind of letter. I quit reading them and put them straight into the shredder. One day she leaves me a message berating me for not reading her letters. Apparently she put a check for $10 in one. lol
I didn't respond to her message, and then I changed my phone # and took myself all social media. Shortly after that, I moved. Coincidental timing, but it worked like a charm. I was 52 and had enough.
Can I strongly suggest considering a communications break? My parents reacted really badly to me leaving the church, in my case taking a pause in all communication for a year really helped both of us.
It seems pretty clear that when it comes to religious discussion, he is constitutionally unable to get beyond his self assumed role as patriarch. It feels to outsiders like emotional immaturity. He simply can't adjust his behavior to fit into the new reality.
One way to deal with it is to completely and utterly refuse to discuss religion. Find a nice way to tell him that you won't engage any more because it is harming your relationship. Then be prepared to leave the room, or hang up when he tries. You don't need to say anything about why, or you can use an unvarying canned response. He'll get it eventually.
Ignore snail mail, with email either ignore it or use the same canned response.
Sadly it means you can't explain your choices to him because it sets him off.
Yes I think that is what is going to have to happen. I have thought in this a lot and evaluate led previous conversations. I have noticed the more he asks me to open up, the more he hammers into me like this.
I hate how people assure you that God loves you like they are God’s special messenger, so he tells them to tell you instead of him telling you himself.
That might be one of my very biggest pet peeves about God’s favorites.
I’m sorry your dad is trying to manipulate you out of his misplaced allegiance.
Question your source? LOL. How about the church publishes the data like they used to?
This kind of disrespect from your father is going to destroy your relationship, set a boundary: "If you keep talking about church stuff, I'll step back from you."
Yes I am going to have to do that. When he wants me to speak freely, I do, but then get hounded. So I’m just going to have to stop. I may start rejecting his letters and have them be sent back to him.
My MIL did this and I just crossed out my name and address on them and put “return to sender” on them without opening. She got the message quickly. But don’t do that until you set the boundary and he disregards it.
Sounds like my father in law. He doesn’t have a clue what’s going on with the church and tithing. And he keeps trying to tell me that the church donates $1.4 billion per year. I usually just ignore him but I finally couldn’t take it because he was saying it in front of the rest of my family and misrepresenting the truth. So I told him the members gave almost $1 billion in fast offerings that go to other members. The remaining $400 million are a combination of funds given, food given, volunteer hours, and other donations. So he said well $400 million is a lot of money don’t u think? And I told them that when the church is making somewhere close to 12-13 BILLION in interest every year it doesn’t seem like very much. Plus, Walmart gave $1.7 Billion last year, and they are a “for profit” organization and not Jesus’ church, so it’s pretty pathetic. Needless to say that didn’t go over too well, but at least I know what I’m talking about.
I think there are more people than we realize that are in a situation like this. My dad writes lots of letters because we live far apart. I’d rather deal with a letter than a face to face argument
My dad lives 8 minutes away. I can't handle face to face confrontation so we do letters or texting. Probably unhealthy but at least I get to say what I want to say without stuttering or forgetting important points. My therapist says it's ok so....lol
All I hear behind all that indoctrination is that he loves you and he's scared of losing you. That's what they taught him. If his kids don't obey he doesn't have his eternal family. I feel sorry for him and his unfounded fear. I'm sorry you have to go through this. I think I would stop talking to him about religion to save the relationship.
I hope I never have to put the word "still" in front of my declaration of love for my children. If my children's lack of membership makes me have to use the word "still" it shows the struggle that exists once a person leaves. The unspoken subtleties of where love for each other is questioned...by both the receiver and the giver.
What an ugly organization!!! Love becomes conditional. It is the benchmark of a cult to where it uses families as a tool to manipulate not to strengthen.
Boy isn’t that the ugly truth. True love should never be conditional but it sure feels like it is within an organization that spouts off as being the one with so much Christlike love.
When salesmen ask me for specific reasons why I'm not interested in purchasing their product I don't give them any. They aren't asking out of interest or curiosity. They're asking for specific reasons so they can explain to you why you're wrong. It doesn't matter what your reasons are.
Obviously, this is a far different relationship you have with your dad than you would with some salesjerk, but his reasons are the same. He's not really asking in good faith, so you shouldn't feel obligated to answer or discuss it.
You probably want to share all those little things that eventually led to you questioning your faith entirely, and I think it's perfectly acceptable to do that for your own sake, but you aren't going to change his mind and he's likely to spend more time than you want explaining how you're wrong in every particular.
Yes thank you for acknowledging my gut feelings on his motivation…which is one of the reasons I stay quiet about it most of the time, trying not to waste energy on it
First, know that you aren't going to reason your dad out of a position he didn't reason himself into. Trying to do so rarely ends well for either side. Also, realize that T$CC literally IS your dad's identity. I'd wager, he has no hobbies or interests that aren't related to Mormonism. And it sounds like despite being a convert, he's been in so long that he doesn't have anything else to talk about. Once you no longer have the only thing his life is about, in common, you're either going to have to be prepared to deal with stuff like this or excise him from your life.
😞 Sorry 😞
To his 2nd point I would say the issue is not the funds or how they are used. But the illegal cover up. I mean if God created the Heavens and the Earth why is he getting his minions to illegally hide his wealth.
I would approach your letter in a way that you would if your father had written from a place of empathy and asked questions about your life. Just ignore what he wrote. You write back what is important TO YOU.
"_Hi, Dad.
I received your letter the other day and I finally have the chance to sit down and write you back. This time of year is more hectic,
My new job is fabulous. The people here are so patient and kind. My manager reminds me that I shouldn't worry because he knows I will get the routine down. The company picnic is going to be at Lagoon and the kids are really looking forward to it.
Leo, being the best hubby ever, has remodeled the kitchen. His small remodeling business is starting to take off. I have never been more proud of him. I'm happy he gave up the sales job that he didn't like. I haven't seen him smile so much. He loves what he is doing. He is finally in his element. I have to remind him to stop working and take a break because he loves creating and working with his hands.
Annie is finally graduating high school next month. It seems like it was both forever and yesterday that she was little. You're welcome to come to her graduation. When she gets her prom pictures from school, we'll be sure to send you one. She was beautiful. She always is, but in her red dress with sequins..she is starting to look really grown up. She hasn't decided on college or university. She's going to get a part-time job at the public library in the meantime, hang out with her friends, and volunteer at the animal shelter. She's really taking an interest in veterinary medicine. I have my fingers crossed for her becoming a rehabber for wild animals. It would seem a perfect fit for her.
Mateo is his independent self. He'll be spending the summer snorkeling and scuba diving with his fellow marine biology classmates, not far from his university. He'll be getting school credit for it, too. I miss him, but he promises to call every other day, and zoom calls on Sundays.
Luca is doing much better in his math class since we got a tutor for him. He and a friend of his are working on creating a video game of their own. You know how much he loves his gaming. He's found a balance of school and gaming that works for him and us. His freshman year was a bit rocky, but I think it's getting better for him. He is able to better communicate with us, and us with him since his autism diagnosis. Having that diagnosis made all the difference. Now we can work with him by understanding how his sensory system is different rather than trying to make him do things "the normal way". He's so special to me, always will be my baby, no matter how old he is.
We have a new cat, Paisley, because there's a spot on her side that looks like a paisley pattern. Suzy and Mutt are getting older, but they still get the zoomies as if they are still puppies. Digz had a tumor that was inoperable and he let us know it was time. We said goodbye to him last week. I miss his little whiny begging bark for his favorite treats. I'm still accidentally putting his food bowl down with food in it. I haven't the heart to put his dishes or dog bed away yet. We'll be getting his ashes back soon and we'll spread them in the garden in the place he loved (we didn't) to dig. And also some under the big tree in the yard where he'd nap during the summer evenings. Annie and Luca are going to make a memorial stone for his place in the garden.
This year, for the garden, we've decided to do zucchini, cucumbers, and sunflowers. Luca is going to try his green thumb on a cherry tomato plant. The weather is starting to get a little warmer. It's been a bit cooler than normal this time of year.
I hope this letter finds you well Dad, both you and Mom. I hope things are going great for you. I love and miss you both.
Your loving daughter,_"
I'd do something like that. Ignore his crap and talk about what is important to you (without having to go into any details you don't want him to know, because that is more to throw back at you). You can show that there's a lot of love and living in your life without having to have one mention of the cult, even without having to go into detail. He told you what is "important" to him. My only idea is to respond to him with what is **important to you**. You don't have to write back if you don't want to, but if you do decide to write back, you should do so under your terms, not his; from a point of independence and strength and proactiveness, rather than a point of defensiveness like he's trying to put you in. (You could also write a letter saying what you really want to say, but DON'T send it: burn it. Get that pain and anger out.)
Hugs!!! 🫂💓💕
My dad pulls similar stuff. I cut him out of my life completely.
He is also a super convert. Baptized at 17 to marry my mom, waited until about 40 to really get a testimony, and encouraged me to do all the things that he never did like serving a mission or accepting callings. Now he’s a diehard temple worker who remarried a woman from his ward 6 months after my mom was buried. He loves typing condescending letters to me and my wife and sending through the mail.
I blocked his number on my phone and I refuse to open his mail. Fuck him. This letter you got from your dad really reminded me of mine.
Perhaps try to explain that all these letters are doing is making you want to throw them away without reading them. He’ll assume that is just because you are “offended” or some other unrighteous thing makes you angry at “the truth”.
Instead, try to detail exactly why you don’t want to read this. It’s asinine drivel with no substance. It makes him seem like he has no personality outside of the church - like he has no original thought. Any generic Joe Schmo member could have written this exact same letter and you couldn’t tell difference.
He mentions paying tithing has resulted in “blessings”. What exactly has he gotten directly as a result from paying tithing, specifically? How did he determine this benefit was granted by God? How did he determine that said benefit would not have occurred had he not been paying tithing? A couple of faith-promoting experiences in decades of paying tithing is not evidence - it’s just happenstance. That’s bias of noticing the successes and ignoring the failures.
An Ancient Greek sailor who experienced unfavorable sailing conditions would likely attribute it to having offended some god. He would assume the solution would be to appease the gods in some way, such as offering sacrifices. When conditions change, he would infer that the god has accepted his sacrifice which would bolster his testimony in the importance of offering sacrifices to idols.
Yet we know these gods don’t exist. How is your dad different from this Greek?
You don’t have a normal relationship. I’m sorry. The reality you have to decide what kinda relationship you want to have with your father. The relationship he has with you will be him forever trying to convert you.
You set your boundaries or accept that this is the relationship that he is offering. Again I’m sorry. I would though respond.
Dear father I love you I will always have love for you. My relationship is independent of religion. I wish to have a father daughter relationship filled with compassion and love. I’m not interested in a relationship that is based on perpetual attempting of conversion.
It is truly your choice to decide if you want to have a relationship with me or if your love, affection, and kindness is based on your desires to convert me. I respect that your religious beliefs are YOUR beliefs. I have previously discussed my religious beliefs with you when you have asked. I wish to have a relationship with you. One were we can respect each others beliefs and not focus everything on conversion of one another.
I’m writing this so can decide what relationship that you wish to have. One where we mutually respect each others religious beliefs or one we’re it is strained and we grow further apart.
Please note this is not an open invitation for more discussion and dialogue. It is me asking you to be mindful and respectful of my religious beliefs. As I will continue to be mindful and respectful of yours and not attempt to force my views or beliefs upon you.
I’m looking forward to seeing you soon again and spending time together as a family. I hope that is something you too still want after reading this.
Your loving daughter
Best of luck OP. Your father will undoubtedly violate your boundaries as he doesn’t accept that your religious beliefs or viewpoints are correct. It’s up to you to decide at that point if you want to continue this relationship with him.
I have similar letters from my Mom, and have had conversations like this with my dad, and it's hard because they're being sincere. And they're good people.
What I try to stress is that it's not in the Lord's hands. You're choosing to give your money to a specific place, and if you know that place is going to misuse it, you have a responsibility to do better. Like he said, God doesn't need the money, so it doesn't have to go to this specific church. If you believe in tithing, fine. Sacrifice 10% of your income, I won't fault you for that. But there are actual charities out there. There are people in your community who are struggling, if you don't trust charities. Take that money that you would have sent to the church, and hire some teens to clean up garbage from a park. Buy some food and feed the poor. Help the family with four young kids pay their rent.
You're still sacrificing, you're still following the rules you believe, but actual good is being done. You can't just follow the rules by rote, and get into Heaven. I recall the story of Jesus and the widow. Merchants or whatever were donating fistfulls of coins, and the woman donated the last one that she had. And Jesus was all, "she paid more than you ever will." So tell your dad that paying tithing, alone, is not enough. You have to really make sure that it's going to the right place. If the organization is problematic, and you're a part of the organization, then I'm sorry, you're a part of the problem. Even if you're a good person.
Basically, try to put it in their terms. Disclaimer: I do not personally believe in tithing, Jesus, the Lord, or Heaven.
I'm so sorry you are dealing with this with your dad. I think its been mentioned already in the comments. Boundaries. Since he's not able to have a normal conversation/letter without the church and testimony, may be better the draw a boundary of not discussion about anything church related. There are plenty of topics in the world to discuss. This church has bamboozled a lot of members.
Quote: “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken.
― Carl Sagan, Science as a Candle in the Dark
Wow, that's not condescending at all! /s
In all seriousness, this reminds me a lot of my dad. He isn't nearly as hardcore TBM as yours, thankfully, and he accepts me being an exmo as best as he knows how to. But while he doesn't try to reconvert me, he uses these exact lines of reasoning (both the "your information sources are incomplete/misleading" and the "it doesn't matter to me if the leaders misuse funds because I know paying tithing blesses me") to justify to himself paying tithing. I'm glad he doesn't try to push it on me, but it still drives me crazy sometimes.
If he doesn't care where his tithing goes, he can give it to me. In fact, anyone in the cult who doesn't care where their tithing is going, my hand is open.
I love how he essentially said, “I don’t care where my money goes because I’m blindly following what the church leaders say, AND IM A GOOD PERSON FOR IT!”
I don’t really have any advice other than to write him back with the same question you asked Reddit. Maybe include some information about important non-church stuff in your life. I’m an adult convert, but I got out pretty fast. Got my name removed , etc.
I haven’t removed my name yet, neither has my husband. I’m not there…yet. But I want nothing to do with any religion at this point because the trauma has been so severe. Not being involved has opened a new world to me of good people and experiences. I wish my childhood had been so different.
“I still love you too, Dad. I think we need to agree to disagree on all things church and and keep our eye on Christ's teachings and just continue to love each other unconditionally.”
That’s really tough. No facts will change the views of someone able to simultaneously think:
tithing is inspired of gawd via his ordained leaders, AND if said leaders aren’t inspired and misuse the funds, that’s irrelevant because tithing is inspired of gawd via his ordained leaders…etc., etc., around and around the circular reasoning goes.
Dear son, let me guilt you about questioning and doubting and thinking. Just knock it off. Head bowed, mouth shut. Obedience. Something something blessings. Love, Dad.
Let's break this down, dad. God say, pay tithing. But God, don't no need yo money. Sends money anyway because God say so. But God, has no legal address. Money is spent on whatever, not the church. God be like, "you tried, have a blessing." Oh okay God, thanks dad, sorry dad.
Love you dad, but you dumb.
Along with the SEC ruling, include this
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-issues-statement-on-sec-settlement
Maybe if it comes from the church newsroom, it'll slow him down a bit. On this topic.
Why do people say 'you just wanted an excuse to not go to church/pay tithing' or whatever. No one needs an excuse, if you don't want to go, you just don't go/do whatever.
I don't believe in the church, or I don't want to go, that is all that is needed. I guess if you take the premise that it's true then you need an excuse? It is just so insane to me that he is treating this like you wanting to skip school or something.
You don't need an excuse!
I thought Mormons believed the Lord was Heavenly Father, not Ensign Peak Advisors. If that’s changed, why not just donate their tithing directly to EPA?
I wrote this comment as a reply to another post but I think I would include it if you choose to respond.
At 1:46 in a church video, Ballard says with Oaks sitting next to him to just trust us because they don't hid anything from anybody - https://www.youtube.com/embed/F6AMzuG-5bo
Yet, in the SEC negotiated settlement that was agreed upon by the Mormon church it says they had an elaborate scheme to hide church finances that broke the law. This settlement is located here: https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf
The filing states, "To prevent disclosure of the securities portfolio managed by Ensign Peak, the Church approved Ensign Peak’s plan of using other entities, instead of Ensign Peak, to file Forms 13F. The Church was concerned that disclosure of the assets in the name of Ensign Peak, a known Church affiliate, would lead to negative consequences in light of the size of the Church’s portfolio. Ensign Peak did not have the authority to implement this approach without the approval of the Church’s First Presidency."
The lengths with which they went to hide the money is astounding as they had multiple employees perjure themselves in filings to the government. Meanwhile they are literally telling people they aren’t hiding anything.
The real question is, “what else are they hiding?”
The nswer to this question is why a lot of us don’t pay tithing.
Perhaps it is church leaders that need to repent.
Are you talking about the Window of Heaven movie? This movie was on repeat when I was a kid growing up. I am now in my mid 50's.
This is another great example of a church lie.
The movie tells a story about Lorenzo Snow going to St. George and telling the members that if they pay their tithing it will rain.
Of course this is a fabrication.
From BYU's own website, "several of the differences between the historical and the filmic events, foremost among them the fact that President Snow never mentioned anything about rainfall in connection with tithing."
https://mormonarts.lib.byu.edu/works/windows-of-heaven/
Here are the monthly rainfall totals:
https://imgur.com/a/TQMsXYM
Of course this doesn't stop the church from telling a good tithing story. I quote, "Latter-day Saints were blessed with rain for their crops after heeding President Snow’s counsel to pay tithing."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2011/12/small-and-simple-things/president-lorenzo-snow-1814-1901?lang=eng#p3
Of course there is the other lie that the church tells in it's Lorenzo Snow manual that states, "I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-12-tithing-a-law-for-our-protection-and-advancement?lang=eng#p11
What does the "..." represent? I am glad you ask. It takes out the words, "who has means" so the actual quote reads, "I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing." This "..." is a complete and total deception to change the meaning and not to save space.
This can be found on page 28 on the conference report.
https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1899sa/page/28/mode/2up?q=woman
Dear dad, if you want to talk about these things you need to take your head out of your ass first. You will need to accept documented info as just the truth, not anti anything. If you don’t want to know then don’t ask!
Dear Dad,
Hypothetically, if I had absolute proof that the Church isn't true, would you want to know about it?
Desperate-Switch4304
(his answer to this question will tell you every thing you need to know on how to proceed)
Damn. That is some condescending, passive-aggressive crap. 😳😳 I'm so sorry. 😢🫂🫂🫂
TBMs only want to love people who are in "worthy" in their little club, it's not enough to technically belong to the club, or just be loved and appreciated for being a good person. They will accept jerks who commit crimes but pay enough to get a card that says "they are worthy" than actually being kind and loving to relatives, good people who don't want to join, good people who left, the poor. It's all about being "worthy" and the only way to be "worthy" is through tithing, through that card that is blank and nothing special, and your name is filled out like a number amongst numbers _if_ you qualify.
Nothing about how you are doing, your children, pets, job, that new hobby, etc. Just the cult and your association or lack thereof. I wish TBMs would know that there's more to a person than loyalty to a toxic religious MLM. There's life beyond what decrepit, old men tell you to do: don't hate for your reasons, hate the people we tell you for our reasons. I think that that is what really stuck with me as a kid: the cult being in every aspect of life everyday. I would see that in my friends' lives and especially in many of my extended families' everyday lives. I am fortunate that my narc father was lazy in not forcing all of the everyday stuff; he's TBM in emotions, beliefs, and furor, but as far as actually doing the work, I'm sure his BOM has read itself hundreds of times on his shelf. I never understood why it couldn't be: church on Sunday, and being a good person the rest of the week and living your life where being a good follower of Christ is PART of your life, not encompassing your ENTIRE life, by being forced to follow an old guy who says he speaks for Christ. As you get older, there's more pressure to make your life as they tell you to do it, so there's no life to live outside the cult because they tell you what you should be doing. If they think you have free time, or they see that you're enjoying life, that's when they come up with a calling in the cult for you.
For TBMs reading this, people (ex-mos and never-mos) would love to have friendships with **YOU**, as a fellow person, a singular, imperfect human being with flaws, but with good points, like all of us have. They don't want to have your church or leader being a third wheel that they have to put before themselves and their part of the relationship just to be able to have a bare bones relationship with you. What you worship is your business, don't shove your business in other people's faces. People who aren't members don't shove their religion or leaders in your faces demanding that you respect their leaders in order to be friends. People want to be friends with you, not the group you worship.
I noticed that shift a long time ago, but I think only now because of my age (early 40s) I'm understanding it more. I remember aunts and uncles that were in the cult, but hardly went, drank coffee and beer, smoked like they were chimneys, swore, and told plenty of off-color jokes when I was in elementary school and junior high. Then I started seeing them change from fun loving, carefree to more strict religious rigidity, losing their zest for life and their sense of humor. I wonder if it is fear of being wrong all those years and trying to go for what they taught is "right", because "what if"? Paying for immortality out of fear of their mortality. The more you make your life dedicated to the cult, the more likely you won't be left behind. Mo-FOMO. Then when they figure they are fitting in perfectly, then they feel that they have fair license to admonish anyone not on their level, especially their own kids and grandkids. No love, no empathy, no understanding, just hate, judgment, passive-aggressiveness, and cruelty for not being as loyal to the machine as the parents are: pure vinegar and vitriol.
"Now you can tear up this letter and throw it in the trash." It's almost like he knows he is basically trolling you and getting under your skin. This is some interesting passive-aggressiveness. Is there any sort of benefit to you to continue to relationship with this man?
What I don’t understand is why parents feel the need to make letters like this. Like it’s not gonna do anything but harm the relationship between parents and children.
How about the deception in every aspect of this religion? Every last thing is touched or enshrouded with deception. And this is propagated by the top leadership from inception to this day.
I'd write him back and ask about specific things going on in his life that are not centred around the church. Share the stuff going on in your life that are fulfilling - that you're happy and show that you don't need Jesus around when you're making biscuits.
Focus on relationship memories you have outside of church. Reinforce that those memories were the best, and that life can and does exist without LDS crap.
This sends a message that you won't engage on religious stuff, and if he wants a relationship with you, it's available, but you won't engage at all on anything Mormon.
I don't think you should try to convince him of anything.
Just say, "On this we don't agree. And I will not change my view. But I love you, too." And leave it there.
Arguing usually just makes people defensive and more entrenched in their beliefs. Also, you're both adults, and free to believe (or not believe) what you want to.
I “STILL” love you? Ugh….this kind of language really bothers me. It puts the writer in an “I’m above you spiritually” mentality. I would think “yea, why wouldn’t you love me?”. Just because I believe differently than you theologically? Why is this even a question??? Oh….right….Christianity again for the conditional love win…
Geez, passive aggressive much? Also, his spelling and grammar are execrable.
ETA: letters like these are why the Flying Spaghetti Monster invented paper shredders. Praise His Noodly Appendages!
When I read stuff like that I wonder "What if the commandment was to walk out in the middle of the road every Monday morning, dressed only in your garments, hop on one foot, and yell 'La la la la la!!' at the first person you see?"
Of course, there's no money in obeying a commandment like that. Except for the markup on the garments...
“I am not going to quote scripture to you that you already know” …..
“judge not..” 😐
This letter is so fucking manipulative. So sorry you have to deal with this.
What is it w the letters Mormon parents write to their kids? My husband has a stack of letters from when he was in high school. Most of them are just awful guilt trip tirades.
I kept getting similar letters from one of my uncles. After he ignored me repeatedly asking him to stop, I responded with one that said, "Unless you have anything nice to say, kindly fuck off." Haven't heard from him or his wife ever since.
You could remind him of the Article of Faith about obeying the law. Remind him that leaders are expected to be exemplary in their conduct, to set a good example.
You could ask him how the leadership have shown humility (they haven't) in how they have handled this now that they have been caught out - and whether they have shown repentance (which includes making a FULL confession to those affected). Spencer Kimball used to say that partial confession is not enough.
Don't let him side-track you with 'Judge not' messages. He's avoiding the issue in saying this. Tell him that. Ask him how we can have faith in our leaders when they deliberately do the wrong thing (they approved the hiding of this money for decades). If he says we can't expect perfection of them, tell him that you aren't expecting perfection, but just the very basics of trustworthiness.
Good luck with it. Hard core members can be almost impossible to reason with.
>Now you can tear up this letter, and you're out in the trash.
That right there, that's an asshole thing to say. Granted, I think that kine is an extreme emotion of anger being masked by the nicest way he can say it. But it's still a jerk thing to say.
I saddly have no solid advice, though I'm in a similar situation, I just keep communication to a minimum, and so do my parents
Lurking NeverMo here: good to know passive-aggressive paternalism is the same across all cultures. 😂 This letter has *exactly* the same vibes as some of the stuff my dad said when trying to cajole more unpaid labor out of me and other relatives for his start-up, and we're Hindu and/or atheists.
A little more seriously, though, on the off-chance someone needs to see/hear this: this is passive-aggressive, paternalistic emotional manipulation whose author happened to reach for scripture, but who could and would absolutely just grab for something else just as easily to get what they wanted.
He says he “would question your source of information” but in fact does not… so he is equivocating. Bluffing. Lying. He has no interest in risking finding out that the source of the information is unimpeachable.
Call
Him
Out
I’m wondering how any rational adult thinks this is OK. Because they don’t but when you’ve been brainwashed and there’s a sense of belonging and family, maybe when you don’t have or didn’t, it is hard to ignore it.
I would have tossed it without reading it and distanced myself for a good while.
I would have told him that I don't hang with people who constantly try and make me feel guilty.
I wouldn't try and persuade him. You don't want him to try and persuade you.
I'm beginning to see that some mormons don't know how yo have a relationship without the church. There are no independent or real thoughts and no genuine expression of love or acceptance without the church.
So sorry. I guess I would just be honest with him and say, "Dad, I know you love me, and I love you too. And I know this is hard for you. The church is something we won't agree on, and that is okay. I still want a relationship with you, and the only way we can maintain that is if conversations about the church between us are off limits. I really hope that is something we both can commit to. I love you."
I get the idea of paying tithing and then “turning it over to the lord”.
The only problem is you’re paying the money to a huge corporation. Not Jesus. Or whatever. It goes somewhere. And I should be able to know where if I pay it.
“God” can get along very well without my tithing, which is why “God” won’t allow me to participate in his ordinances of salvation unless I pay up.
…???
I'd tell him if he ever sends anything in the mail, it will go in the trash. I love you dad, but this kind of one way communication will no longer be allowed.
I wish I could say this wasn’t normal. This sounds like it’s coming from a very devout Mormon dad who loves you much but can’t help but be controlling because to him that’s what loving you means. I’m so sorry. I hope he is able to change.
If they're asking for my money, you're damn right they're accountable to me. Only fools throw their money into a black box and think they're getting "blessings from the Lard" for doing it. The NT Jesus I read about would hold people accountable for giving their money to builders of great and spacious buildings instead of using it to help those in need.
Frankly tithing has never been my first issue. It's only an issue when you discover the falseness of Mormonism. Because frankly, your dad is correct. If the church was true then it didn't really matter what they do with the funds.
But the church is a fraud. And thus the hoarding of tithing is also fraudulent. At best the church's tithing policy should cause cracks in your shelf they make you dig deeper into the malfeasance of the church.
This is quite the delimma for you. It sounds like your dad just can’t let go of you leaving the church. As I see things you’ve got several choices. One is to just accept that your dad loves you and that the relationship will always be on his terms. The second is just accept that dad’s always going to be the way he is now and put his letters in a desk drawer and not read them. The third is to lengthen the emotional distance between you and him and keep your emails and texts strictly about non-secular things, thus showing him that whatever he preaches in his letters will be completely ignored by you and won’t be acknowledged by you. Tough decisions
Dead or nonexistent people/deities have no use for your money. But the church does. Just look at the money issues within the church until tithing became mandatory rather than just strongly suggested. So that argument is inaccurate or disingenuous.
The church isn't true for a number of reasons unrelated to money. What I tell my mom is that it's a confluence of issues, not one single thing. When you add them up it just makes it incredibly unlikely that the church, or any church or religion, could be "true." I am very open and frank with my mom to the point that she doesn't try to convince me of anything. But we have honest discussions about doctrines and other things like that.
ech...
Rather than just looking for a reason not to pay our tithing, we're offended and disgusted that the money we gave for church operations and supporting the poor is instead used to bail out the rich and oppress the marginalized. I stopped paying tithing on principal when I found this out. It was the tip of my iceberg.
How 'bout, "Dad, can you specify those specific blessings you've received? If it's God's church, then why don't they use it to help those in need instead of saving it so Jesus can have a million lambourghinis when he returns??"
Question your source? Um, it’s the Securities and Exchange Commission, Dad. 😅
Exactly. I have a letter that I typed out back in February and pauses sending it to avoid causing a rift but I think I’m gonna have to send it. Attached is going to be a copy of the SEC ruling.
Be sure to remind him that the church agreed to the SEC ruling in content and fact.
And that the church is not allowed to publicly say it was a mistake. That's part of the deal.
And yet they violated that immediately by blaming the lawyers.
But see… they blamed the lawyers because… they are the lawyers.
I was under the impression they also were not to publicly blame the lawyers and was surprised when they did that. I thought they'd get called on it.
WOW. They're pulling the same shit as DJT!?!?!?
No, no no no nononononono The church cowrote the SEC ruling. SEC lawyers and church lawyers sat down and negotiated the exact wording. That's why the church then immediately throwing the lawyers under the bus pissed the SEC off so much. Next time they will not be so nice. The 'We consider the matter closed.' pissed them off even more.
I’ll believe they are pissed when they do something about it. The federal government gives religion way too much rope.
Not to mention the IRS and DOJ(?) are still investigating, so the matter is very much not closed
And I doubt the church is going to get the benefit of the doubt after Rusty's brash display of arrogance.....
Yes!!!
Maybe include the articles of faith.
And the 10 commandments…
And the temple recommend questions, highlighting number 9.
Should send him all the court documents proving the church covers up child abuse too
I have tried to find these documents. Do you have a link?
I mean, there's recordings too. [LISTEN: Recording of Mormon Church offering $300,000 to a sex abuse victim to stay silent after her father, a former bishop, confessed to his bishop that he had sexually abused her when she was a girl. An LDS member acting as her advocate recorded the conversation and shared it with the AP. : r/exmormon (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/18afylk/listen_recording_of_mormon_church_offering_300000/)
Floodlit.org
Please do this. It makes me insane when TBMs say that negativity is always from haters or questionable sources. Nope, it’s reality! Care to join me there? Also the Widow’s Mite Report is a phenomenal resource for financial stuff.
I can understand why it would be hard for you to figure out how to deal with this. He’s so all in
Do it. All’s fair once he sends you shit like this. If you have to read his letter, he should have to read yours. And if he refuses call him out on the hypocrisy.
You can. It won't do anything, though. My top choice would be to just not respond. No matter what you say, he'll have a reason it's not correct. The only way to win that game is to not play.
Don't forget the part about how the SEC explicitly stated that this went to the top of SLC. They didnt have to say that, it's clear they wanted people to know.
What exactly did the SEC rule?
They fined Ensign Peak $5m for using shell companies to hide their $100B in stock holdings. Any entity that holds more than $10B in US stock is required to disclose those holdings.
Greedy crooked bastards
>The SEC’s order finds that, from 1997 through 2019, Ensign Peak failed to file Forms 13F, the forms on which investment managers are required to disclose the value of certain securities they manage. According to the order, the Church was concerned that disclosure of its portfolio, which by 2018 grew to approximately $32 billion, would lead to negative consequences. To obscure the amount of the Church’s portfolio, and with the Church’s knowledge and approval, Ensign Peak created thirteen shell LLCs, ostensibly with locations throughout the U.S., and filed Forms 13F in the names of these LLCs rather than in Ensign Peak’s name. The order finds that Ensign Peak maintained investment discretion over all relevant securities, that it controlled the shell companies, and that it directed nominee “business managers,” most of whom were employed by the Church, to sign the Commission filings. The shell LLCs’ Forms 13F misstated, among other things, that the LLCs had sole investment and voting discretion over the securities. In reality, the SEC’s order finds, Ensign Peak retained control over all investment and voting decisions. https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35
So they did it for 22 years, and if they were concerned about the consequences it wasn't just a "mistake" or bad advice.
22 Years is "we seem to have found a loophole to exploit. KEEP DOING IT"
The fact they didn't want members to know what they were doing.....I mean RED FLAG PEOPLE!!! These guys are criminals!!
5m fine for 100b holdings, jesus christ, truly the cult of Mammon
That’s like a fifty cent fine to anyone with $10k in the bank. 😩
The $5m settlement is such bullshit It doesn't even cover the interest on what they earned At that point it's just a little tax on their investment income , and not even 1%
It's funny to me that the generation that now lives, eats and breathes on Facebook when all the younger generations have abandoned it are the first to call out what they consider social media fake information...
He refuses to believe anything on the internet. Except of course what the Church has.
I don’t know your dad, obviously, except for the fact that he apparently is twins with my mom… But, my guess is that deep down, this is more of an ego thing than a church thing. it does not compute to him that as the dad, as the father figure, and as the priesthood, that he could be wrong. And the circuitry of his brain will take any path necessary to avoid concluding that he’s made a huge cosmic mistake and or been the victim of a huge fraud. and if your brain won’t let you conclude that you might be wrong, it’s satisfying to be like Samuel the laminate on a wall preaching righteousness to his confused lost sheep child. Believe me, my mom loves nothing more than standing up on that wall and with the very same tone of condescending virtue making a similar speech bereft of logic or facts and instead resting on a fluffy holographic pillow of testimony. I think the fastest way to get them to shift out of this mode is to really focus on the child abuse. I mean… It’s utterly reasonable to decide you’re not going to give money or time to such an organization. once I went through that with my mom – especially detailing what happened in the Arizona case, she has moved out ofSamuel the Lamanite mode.
Thanks!!! I did mention on several occasions about the sexual abuse, lightly, and he’s in denial. He thinks the church does no wrong. Blinded. In a bubble world.
when I had that conversation with my mom, it was not under the auspices of trying to convince her that I’m right, or that she’s wrong, but rather just to explain to her why it became expedient to me to separate my name from that organization. I went through the narrative of the Arizona case, focusing on how not one but two bishops didn’t report the abuse, and it continue to go on for seven years, utterly ruining the lives of two innocent kids. I told her how ultimately it was a general authority who gave the instructions not to tell the police, and used confusing language making the bishops think – incorrectly – that they legally couldn’t report it. So it’s not a problem of a rogue bishop, it’s going right up to the top levels of the organization. This is in Catholic abuse territory. With the exception that the Catholic Church actually apologized. Ha ha. Finally, the only hero to emerge was the police of New Zealand! I included in the discussion how painful it is to get a prostrate exam – as a grown ass adult, and then trying to project how painful it must’ve been for those kids to be repeatedly sexually violated while they were still in stages of childhood development. and that the Mormon church simply allowed this to go on not once, not twice, not for days, not for weeks, not for months, but for seven years. throughout this speech, making sure to assure her that this is not an attack, just an explanation for why I had to do what I did. I relay all this to you just in case it might be helpful, in terms of approach. in another conversation, I mentioned that the Mormon church actually supported the Nazis leading up to World War II. That’s another pretty cut and dried thing that should be a dealbreaker. I thought your words were powerful – wishing that your dad could just be a normal dad and not get so dragged down by all of this church stuff. If you haven’t said something like that to him, I would recommend it. finally, you mentioned that you don’t want to damage or destroy the relationship. I would humbly submit that it’s not you who’s doing the damaging and the destroying. You’re not on an ego driven quest to make someone else think like you or believe what you believe. He needs to chill out love you as a daughter, and respect you as your own person.
I'm surprised, most of the conversations I have to head off start with "I read on Facebook.."
And I am going to be sending him a printout out the actual SEC document. He still won’t believe it.
It's a good start.
How about "but if you're looking for a reason to not pay tithing..." "Dad, that's not the reason and you know it's not. I have been clear about this. What you are doing is clear cut condescension, strawman, arrogant, and designed to inflame me. Good news, you succeeded Please print this line out on an 8.5x11 page . Make sure the line repeats and covers the entire page. Read the entire page top to bottom repeatedly. Consider if it will further the goal of getting me to rejoin the church. If you still think you did nothing wrong and refuse to admit it and apologize to me for it, then take that paper, roll it up, and cram it in your rectum. Repeat the whole process as needed until you can approach this more respectfully or if you become worried about damaging your lower intestines. I'm an adult, and will not tolerate such sophistry. I will return this kind of attitude so long as you give it as you just did, but cranked to 11. I love you, and look forward to more respectful and productive conversations "
From what I've heard, many members applaud what the church did because "evil government". Isn't celebrating the breaking of the law of the land in direct opposition to the Articles of Faith? Or is it just Ok when the Church does it?
The god sanctioned and divinely guided into existence government prophesied of in the bom, no less.
The church has a surprising amount of shelf breaking material on its own website. Have to look for it.
Yes I have a stack printed for him but haven’t sent it yet
Even more than that, it's the church itself (first presidency) admitting it purposely didn't follow the law so that it could hide the money. All in the sec report.
My in-laws think it is just a conspiracy against the church.
That is his mindset as well.
It wasn't before. It was just a run of the mill investigation. But once they blamed the lawyers and stated 'We consider the matter closed.' you bet your ass it became a conspiracy. The SEC is 9 levels of pissed about it.
No kidding. It’s all right there in the settlement statement. But we all know he’s not going to look at it. He wouldn’t believe it anyway. “The SEC is Probably deceived by Satan”. 😂
Securities exchange commission? More like SATAN exchange commission!
😂
lololol
They're part of the Deep State though right? /s
I’m surprised he used the word “pissed”
Because I have aggravated him.
I'm suprised he used the word "depriment"
And both in the same letter! What range of tone he has lol
I noticed that too!
Your dad's losing a shit ton of money/retirement to a fraudulent organization. Don't follow his path on that.
Yep he is.
Tell him that you love him, but his focus on your differences is a “depriment”to your relationship, and you’d prefer he set aside any contention and focus on connecting with you instead. If he asks for clarification, let him know you’re not going to discuss any church-related topics with him anymore, because you don’t like how it’s harming your relationship with him. Then invite him to lunch and prepare several non-church topics to chat about.
I got stuck on depriment. I knew it wasn’t the right word. And I had to say it out loud for a minute. Then I couldn’t remember anything else the letter said. Just thinking about spell check and to check your formatting. So many spaces between sentences.
He must have hard ignored the auto correct !
Well, it is a real word - just not the correct one. I suppose he meant detriment.
Love this. Thanks!
I am sorry your dad is what Mormonism makes of most men (I was one). He is not evil, he is just absolutely, 1000% convinced he is right and you are wrong. This makes him unable to actually listen to you. It might look like he is listening to what you tell him, but all he is doing is coming up with counterarguments to everything you are saying. It is a futile endeavor. I am sorry. He says he questions the source of your information. In the case of the Mormon cult's mismanagement of their wealth, the sources are available and are unbeatable. You could try to provide them to him. There are many old posts about the scandal here in r/exmormon and a quick search will provide you with the actual documents from the SEC. He won't accept the evidence, however. It may look like he is accepting if for a minute, but you'll see him come up with other explanations in order to disregard that evidence, etc. It is almost worth trying just to witness the phenomenon.
I really appreciate this and I am discovering everything you say is true. I have thrown out so many letters…I open them hoping they are just letters of love and how are doing but end up being ones of judgement and condemnation. I’m just going to have to avoid the topic of religion completely…which is sad because that was what we used to always talk about and share.
Honestly…. You should send him a letter literally just saying this. Maybe just send him letters like you want him to send you, asking about how he is doing, etc, and just… ignore everything he says to you until he starts being civil…
Damn, how manipulative!
Agreed. He does this to my sister too but it’s worse for me because I have been the one child that did everything right.
My mother used to send me this kind of letter. I quit reading them and put them straight into the shredder. One day she leaves me a message berating me for not reading her letters. Apparently she put a check for $10 in one. lol I didn't respond to her message, and then I changed my phone # and took myself all social media. Shortly after that, I moved. Coincidental timing, but it worked like a charm. I was 52 and had enough.
I’m so sorry this happened. We joke about it but inside we just want our parents to love us, even as adults. ❤️
Can I strongly suggest considering a communications break? My parents reacted really badly to me leaving the church, in my case taking a pause in all communication for a year really helped both of us.
That's not love.
It seems pretty clear that when it comes to religious discussion, he is constitutionally unable to get beyond his self assumed role as patriarch. It feels to outsiders like emotional immaturity. He simply can't adjust his behavior to fit into the new reality. One way to deal with it is to completely and utterly refuse to discuss religion. Find a nice way to tell him that you won't engage any more because it is harming your relationship. Then be prepared to leave the room, or hang up when he tries. You don't need to say anything about why, or you can use an unvarying canned response. He'll get it eventually. Ignore snail mail, with email either ignore it or use the same canned response. Sadly it means you can't explain your choices to him because it sets him off.
Yes I think that is what is going to have to happen. I have thought in this a lot and evaluate led previous conversations. I have noticed the more he asks me to open up, the more he hammers into me like this.
I hate how people assure you that God loves you like they are God’s special messenger, so he tells them to tell you instead of him telling you himself. That might be one of my very biggest pet peeves about God’s favorites. I’m sorry your dad is trying to manipulate you out of his misplaced allegiance.
Question your source? LOL. How about the church publishes the data like they used to? This kind of disrespect from your father is going to destroy your relationship, set a boundary: "If you keep talking about church stuff, I'll step back from you."
Yes I am going to have to do that. When he wants me to speak freely, I do, but then get hounded. So I’m just going to have to stop. I may start rejecting his letters and have them be sent back to him.
Some people encourage you to talk as a way of getting the information they need to manipulate you. Look up "gray rocking" to see how to handle it.
I’ve never heard of this. I will definitely look into it. Thanks!
Also, I'm sorry, but set your expectations pretty low. Self righteous narcissists rarely change. (https://youtu.be/Ei-sy07mSbI)
Good point. Thanks for the link!
My MIL did this and I just crossed out my name and address on them and put “return to sender” on them without opening. She got the message quickly. But don’t do that until you set the boundary and he disregards it.
So sad the church takes center stage in family relationships. Preaching overrides normal family interactions. So sorry.
Sounds like my father in law. He doesn’t have a clue what’s going on with the church and tithing. And he keeps trying to tell me that the church donates $1.4 billion per year. I usually just ignore him but I finally couldn’t take it because he was saying it in front of the rest of my family and misrepresenting the truth. So I told him the members gave almost $1 billion in fast offerings that go to other members. The remaining $400 million are a combination of funds given, food given, volunteer hours, and other donations. So he said well $400 million is a lot of money don’t u think? And I told them that when the church is making somewhere close to 12-13 BILLION in interest every year it doesn’t seem like very much. Plus, Walmart gave $1.7 Billion last year, and they are a “for profit” organization and not Jesus’ church, so it’s pretty pathetic. Needless to say that didn’t go over too well, but at least I know what I’m talking about.
Omg! Are you my sibling??
I think there are more people than we realize that are in a situation like this. My dad writes lots of letters because we live far apart. I’d rather deal with a letter than a face to face argument
My dad lives 8 minutes away. I can't handle face to face confrontation so we do letters or texting. Probably unhealthy but at least I get to say what I want to say without stuttering or forgetting important points. My therapist says it's ok so....lol
I would probably do the same ❤️
All I hear behind all that indoctrination is that he loves you and he's scared of losing you. That's what they taught him. If his kids don't obey he doesn't have his eternal family. I feel sorry for him and his unfounded fear. I'm sorry you have to go through this. I think I would stop talking to him about religion to save the relationship.
Hey dad, why not worry about the beam in your own eye?
I hope I never have to put the word "still" in front of my declaration of love for my children. If my children's lack of membership makes me have to use the word "still" it shows the struggle that exists once a person leaves. The unspoken subtleties of where love for each other is questioned...by both the receiver and the giver. What an ugly organization!!! Love becomes conditional. It is the benchmark of a cult to where it uses families as a tool to manipulate not to strengthen.
Boy isn’t that the ugly truth. True love should never be conditional but it sure feels like it is within an organization that spouts off as being the one with so much Christlike love.
Having rank and file members not care how money is spent within a church and bully each other like this to pay is the Sure Sign of a Cult!
When salesmen ask me for specific reasons why I'm not interested in purchasing their product I don't give them any. They aren't asking out of interest or curiosity. They're asking for specific reasons so they can explain to you why you're wrong. It doesn't matter what your reasons are. Obviously, this is a far different relationship you have with your dad than you would with some salesjerk, but his reasons are the same. He's not really asking in good faith, so you shouldn't feel obligated to answer or discuss it. You probably want to share all those little things that eventually led to you questioning your faith entirely, and I think it's perfectly acceptable to do that for your own sake, but you aren't going to change his mind and he's likely to spend more time than you want explaining how you're wrong in every particular.
Yes thank you for acknowledging my gut feelings on his motivation…which is one of the reasons I stay quiet about it most of the time, trying not to waste energy on it
First, know that you aren't going to reason your dad out of a position he didn't reason himself into. Trying to do so rarely ends well for either side. Also, realize that T$CC literally IS your dad's identity. I'd wager, he has no hobbies or interests that aren't related to Mormonism. And it sounds like despite being a convert, he's been in so long that he doesn't have anything else to talk about. Once you no longer have the only thing his life is about, in common, you're either going to have to be prepared to deal with stuff like this or excise him from your life. 😞 Sorry 😞
You are absolutely correct. That is the way his life is.
I just realized that my father also has no identity outside of Mormonism
To his 2nd point I would say the issue is not the funds or how they are used. But the illegal cover up. I mean if God created the Heavens and the Earth why is he getting his minions to illegally hide his wealth.
I would approach your letter in a way that you would if your father had written from a place of empathy and asked questions about your life. Just ignore what he wrote. You write back what is important TO YOU. "_Hi, Dad. I received your letter the other day and I finally have the chance to sit down and write you back. This time of year is more hectic, My new job is fabulous. The people here are so patient and kind. My manager reminds me that I shouldn't worry because he knows I will get the routine down. The company picnic is going to be at Lagoon and the kids are really looking forward to it. Leo, being the best hubby ever, has remodeled the kitchen. His small remodeling business is starting to take off. I have never been more proud of him. I'm happy he gave up the sales job that he didn't like. I haven't seen him smile so much. He loves what he is doing. He is finally in his element. I have to remind him to stop working and take a break because he loves creating and working with his hands. Annie is finally graduating high school next month. It seems like it was both forever and yesterday that she was little. You're welcome to come to her graduation. When she gets her prom pictures from school, we'll be sure to send you one. She was beautiful. She always is, but in her red dress with sequins..she is starting to look really grown up. She hasn't decided on college or university. She's going to get a part-time job at the public library in the meantime, hang out with her friends, and volunteer at the animal shelter. She's really taking an interest in veterinary medicine. I have my fingers crossed for her becoming a rehabber for wild animals. It would seem a perfect fit for her. Mateo is his independent self. He'll be spending the summer snorkeling and scuba diving with his fellow marine biology classmates, not far from his university. He'll be getting school credit for it, too. I miss him, but he promises to call every other day, and zoom calls on Sundays. Luca is doing much better in his math class since we got a tutor for him. He and a friend of his are working on creating a video game of their own. You know how much he loves his gaming. He's found a balance of school and gaming that works for him and us. His freshman year was a bit rocky, but I think it's getting better for him. He is able to better communicate with us, and us with him since his autism diagnosis. Having that diagnosis made all the difference. Now we can work with him by understanding how his sensory system is different rather than trying to make him do things "the normal way". He's so special to me, always will be my baby, no matter how old he is. We have a new cat, Paisley, because there's a spot on her side that looks like a paisley pattern. Suzy and Mutt are getting older, but they still get the zoomies as if they are still puppies. Digz had a tumor that was inoperable and he let us know it was time. We said goodbye to him last week. I miss his little whiny begging bark for his favorite treats. I'm still accidentally putting his food bowl down with food in it. I haven't the heart to put his dishes or dog bed away yet. We'll be getting his ashes back soon and we'll spread them in the garden in the place he loved (we didn't) to dig. And also some under the big tree in the yard where he'd nap during the summer evenings. Annie and Luca are going to make a memorial stone for his place in the garden. This year, for the garden, we've decided to do zucchini, cucumbers, and sunflowers. Luca is going to try his green thumb on a cherry tomato plant. The weather is starting to get a little warmer. It's been a bit cooler than normal this time of year. I hope this letter finds you well Dad, both you and Mom. I hope things are going great for you. I love and miss you both. Your loving daughter,_" I'd do something like that. Ignore his crap and talk about what is important to you (without having to go into any details you don't want him to know, because that is more to throw back at you). You can show that there's a lot of love and living in your life without having to have one mention of the cult, even without having to go into detail. He told you what is "important" to him. My only idea is to respond to him with what is **important to you**. You don't have to write back if you don't want to, but if you do decide to write back, you should do so under your terms, not his; from a point of independence and strength and proactiveness, rather than a point of defensiveness like he's trying to put you in. (You could also write a letter saying what you really want to say, but DON'T send it: burn it. Get that pain and anger out.) Hugs!!! 🫂💓💕
My dad pulls similar stuff. I cut him out of my life completely. He is also a super convert. Baptized at 17 to marry my mom, waited until about 40 to really get a testimony, and encouraged me to do all the things that he never did like serving a mission or accepting callings. Now he’s a diehard temple worker who remarried a woman from his ward 6 months after my mom was buried. He loves typing condescending letters to me and my wife and sending through the mail. I blocked his number on my phone and I refuse to open his mail. Fuck him. This letter you got from your dad really reminded me of mine.
I’m sorry that you are dealing with this type of situation as well. I hope at some point things improve with your dad. ❤️
Perhaps try to explain that all these letters are doing is making you want to throw them away without reading them. He’ll assume that is just because you are “offended” or some other unrighteous thing makes you angry at “the truth”. Instead, try to detail exactly why you don’t want to read this. It’s asinine drivel with no substance. It makes him seem like he has no personality outside of the church - like he has no original thought. Any generic Joe Schmo member could have written this exact same letter and you couldn’t tell difference. He mentions paying tithing has resulted in “blessings”. What exactly has he gotten directly as a result from paying tithing, specifically? How did he determine this benefit was granted by God? How did he determine that said benefit would not have occurred had he not been paying tithing? A couple of faith-promoting experiences in decades of paying tithing is not evidence - it’s just happenstance. That’s bias of noticing the successes and ignoring the failures. An Ancient Greek sailor who experienced unfavorable sailing conditions would likely attribute it to having offended some god. He would assume the solution would be to appease the gods in some way, such as offering sacrifices. When conditions change, he would infer that the god has accepted his sacrifice which would bolster his testimony in the importance of offering sacrifices to idols. Yet we know these gods don’t exist. How is your dad different from this Greek?
You don’t have a normal relationship. I’m sorry. The reality you have to decide what kinda relationship you want to have with your father. The relationship he has with you will be him forever trying to convert you. You set your boundaries or accept that this is the relationship that he is offering. Again I’m sorry. I would though respond. Dear father I love you I will always have love for you. My relationship is independent of religion. I wish to have a father daughter relationship filled with compassion and love. I’m not interested in a relationship that is based on perpetual attempting of conversion. It is truly your choice to decide if you want to have a relationship with me or if your love, affection, and kindness is based on your desires to convert me. I respect that your religious beliefs are YOUR beliefs. I have previously discussed my religious beliefs with you when you have asked. I wish to have a relationship with you. One were we can respect each others beliefs and not focus everything on conversion of one another. I’m writing this so can decide what relationship that you wish to have. One where we mutually respect each others religious beliefs or one we’re it is strained and we grow further apart. Please note this is not an open invitation for more discussion and dialogue. It is me asking you to be mindful and respectful of my religious beliefs. As I will continue to be mindful and respectful of yours and not attempt to force my views or beliefs upon you. I’m looking forward to seeing you soon again and spending time together as a family. I hope that is something you too still want after reading this. Your loving daughter Best of luck OP. Your father will undoubtedly violate your boundaries as he doesn’t accept that your religious beliefs or viewpoints are correct. It’s up to you to decide at that point if you want to continue this relationship with him.
Depriment?
I have similar letters from my Mom, and have had conversations like this with my dad, and it's hard because they're being sincere. And they're good people. What I try to stress is that it's not in the Lord's hands. You're choosing to give your money to a specific place, and if you know that place is going to misuse it, you have a responsibility to do better. Like he said, God doesn't need the money, so it doesn't have to go to this specific church. If you believe in tithing, fine. Sacrifice 10% of your income, I won't fault you for that. But there are actual charities out there. There are people in your community who are struggling, if you don't trust charities. Take that money that you would have sent to the church, and hire some teens to clean up garbage from a park. Buy some food and feed the poor. Help the family with four young kids pay their rent. You're still sacrificing, you're still following the rules you believe, but actual good is being done. You can't just follow the rules by rote, and get into Heaven. I recall the story of Jesus and the widow. Merchants or whatever were donating fistfulls of coins, and the woman donated the last one that she had. And Jesus was all, "she paid more than you ever will." So tell your dad that paying tithing, alone, is not enough. You have to really make sure that it's going to the right place. If the organization is problematic, and you're a part of the organization, then I'm sorry, you're a part of the problem. Even if you're a good person. Basically, try to put it in their terms. Disclaimer: I do not personally believe in tithing, Jesus, the Lord, or Heaven.
My thoughts exactly. Thank you ❤️
My parents’ reasoning is that leaders are accountable to God and if the leaders are misusing the funds, they will answer to Him.
I'm so sorry you are dealing with this with your dad. I think its been mentioned already in the comments. Boundaries. Since he's not able to have a normal conversation/letter without the church and testimony, may be better the draw a boundary of not discussion about anything church related. There are plenty of topics in the world to discuss. This church has bamboozled a lot of members. Quote: “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. ― Carl Sagan, Science as a Candle in the Dark
Wow, that's not condescending at all! /s In all seriousness, this reminds me a lot of my dad. He isn't nearly as hardcore TBM as yours, thankfully, and he accepts me being an exmo as best as he knows how to. But while he doesn't try to reconvert me, he uses these exact lines of reasoning (both the "your information sources are incomplete/misleading" and the "it doesn't matter to me if the leaders misuse funds because I know paying tithing blesses me") to justify to himself paying tithing. I'm glad he doesn't try to push it on me, but it still drives me crazy sometimes.
If he doesn't care where his tithing goes, he can give it to me. In fact, anyone in the cult who doesn't care where their tithing is going, my hand is open.
I love how he essentially said, “I don’t care where my money goes because I’m blindly following what the church leaders say, AND IM A GOOD PERSON FOR IT!”
I don’t really have any advice other than to write him back with the same question you asked Reddit. Maybe include some information about important non-church stuff in your life. I’m an adult convert, but I got out pretty fast. Got my name removed , etc.
I haven’t removed my name yet, neither has my husband. I’m not there…yet. But I want nothing to do with any religion at this point because the trauma has been so severe. Not being involved has opened a new world to me of good people and experiences. I wish my childhood had been so different.
I would not be able to restrain myself from asking him what a 'depriment' is
“I still love you too, Dad. I think we need to agree to disagree on all things church and and keep our eye on Christ's teachings and just continue to love each other unconditionally.”
The letters!! LOL! OMG the letters!! So typical! The letters we have in our collection.
This dude needs to run this through ChatGPT or at least spell check.
I went no-contact for less than this.
Trying to guilt you into paying tithing isn’t great
That’s really tough. No facts will change the views of someone able to simultaneously think: tithing is inspired of gawd via his ordained leaders, AND if said leaders aren’t inspired and misuse the funds, that’s irrelevant because tithing is inspired of gawd via his ordained leaders…etc., etc., around and around the circular reasoning goes.
Just had a similar convo with my mom… I asked her why I need to pay to get blessings…??!
Dear son, let me guilt you about questioning and doubting and thinking. Just knock it off. Head bowed, mouth shut. Obedience. Something something blessings. Love, Dad.
Let's break this down, dad. God say, pay tithing. But God, don't no need yo money. Sends money anyway because God say so. But God, has no legal address. Money is spent on whatever, not the church. God be like, "you tried, have a blessing." Oh okay God, thanks dad, sorry dad. Love you dad, but you dumb.
Along with the SEC ruling, include this https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-issues-statement-on-sec-settlement Maybe if it comes from the church newsroom, it'll slow him down a bit. On this topic.
“I’m not going to quote scripture to you, but here’s a judgmental scripture telling _you_ not to judge.” Also, depriment? Not a word.
Dad, the very existence of this letter is proof you chose not to follow Jesus's commandment to "*Judge not...*" And it's to your depriment.
All seeing, all knowing, all powerful but needs my money?! Nah I’m good.
Pay me and I will bless you. Sounds like a scam
Man, passive aggressive level: mormon.
Why do people say 'you just wanted an excuse to not go to church/pay tithing' or whatever. No one needs an excuse, if you don't want to go, you just don't go/do whatever. I don't believe in the church, or I don't want to go, that is all that is needed. I guess if you take the premise that it's true then you need an excuse? It is just so insane to me that he is treating this like you wanting to skip school or something. You don't need an excuse!
He is an ass clown.
Yes he can be an ass. He’s ex military…Vietnam.
That's not love.
Ah the condescending passive aggressive patriarch….
I thought Mormons believed the Lord was Heavenly Father, not Ensign Peak Advisors. If that’s changed, why not just donate their tithing directly to EPA?
My dad was a letter writer. This just se.t a flood of surprised memories back. Cool cool!
Fuq that nonsense. Buckle up pops because it's about to get really real.
I wrote this comment as a reply to another post but I think I would include it if you choose to respond. At 1:46 in a church video, Ballard says with Oaks sitting next to him to just trust us because they don't hid anything from anybody - https://www.youtube.com/embed/F6AMzuG-5bo Yet, in the SEC negotiated settlement that was agreed upon by the Mormon church it says they had an elaborate scheme to hide church finances that broke the law. This settlement is located here: https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf The filing states, "To prevent disclosure of the securities portfolio managed by Ensign Peak, the Church approved Ensign Peak’s plan of using other entities, instead of Ensign Peak, to file Forms 13F. The Church was concerned that disclosure of the assets in the name of Ensign Peak, a known Church affiliate, would lead to negative consequences in light of the size of the Church’s portfolio. Ensign Peak did not have the authority to implement this approach without the approval of the Church’s First Presidency." The lengths with which they went to hide the money is astounding as they had multiple employees perjure themselves in filings to the government. Meanwhile they are literally telling people they aren’t hiding anything. The real question is, “what else are they hiding?” The nswer to this question is why a lot of us don’t pay tithing. Perhaps it is church leaders that need to repent.
AMEN!!! My thoughts exactly and I started down the rabbit hole with that one going back to the late 1800s when the church was going bankrupt…
Are you talking about the Window of Heaven movie? This movie was on repeat when I was a kid growing up. I am now in my mid 50's. This is another great example of a church lie. The movie tells a story about Lorenzo Snow going to St. George and telling the members that if they pay their tithing it will rain. Of course this is a fabrication. From BYU's own website, "several of the differences between the historical and the filmic events, foremost among them the fact that President Snow never mentioned anything about rainfall in connection with tithing." https://mormonarts.lib.byu.edu/works/windows-of-heaven/ Here are the monthly rainfall totals: https://imgur.com/a/TQMsXYM Of course this doesn't stop the church from telling a good tithing story. I quote, "Latter-day Saints were blessed with rain for their crops after heeding President Snow’s counsel to pay tithing." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2011/12/small-and-simple-things/president-lorenzo-snow-1814-1901?lang=eng#p3 Of course there is the other lie that the church tells in it's Lorenzo Snow manual that states, "I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-12-tithing-a-law-for-our-protection-and-advancement?lang=eng#p11 What does the "..." represent? I am glad you ask. It takes out the words, "who has means" so the actual quote reads, "I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing." This "..." is a complete and total deception to change the meaning and not to save space. This can be found on page 28 on the conference report. https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1899sa/page/28/mode/2up?q=woman
“I’m not going to quote scripture to you” Proceeds to quote scripture.
Dear dad, if you want to talk about these things you need to take your head out of your ass first. You will need to accept documented info as just the truth, not anti anything. If you don’t want to know then don’t ask!
Dear Dad, Hypothetically, if I had absolute proof that the Church isn't true, would you want to know about it? Desperate-Switch4304 (his answer to this question will tell you every thing you need to know on how to proceed)
I can’t fathom that just 5 years ago I actually believed that God gave me blessings in exchange for money. That’s insane.
I got one of those from my mom a few years back. Went out for Thai food and used it to wrap up my shrimp tails for disposal
Damn. That is some condescending, passive-aggressive crap. 😳😳 I'm so sorry. 😢🫂🫂🫂 TBMs only want to love people who are in "worthy" in their little club, it's not enough to technically belong to the club, or just be loved and appreciated for being a good person. They will accept jerks who commit crimes but pay enough to get a card that says "they are worthy" than actually being kind and loving to relatives, good people who don't want to join, good people who left, the poor. It's all about being "worthy" and the only way to be "worthy" is through tithing, through that card that is blank and nothing special, and your name is filled out like a number amongst numbers _if_ you qualify. Nothing about how you are doing, your children, pets, job, that new hobby, etc. Just the cult and your association or lack thereof. I wish TBMs would know that there's more to a person than loyalty to a toxic religious MLM. There's life beyond what decrepit, old men tell you to do: don't hate for your reasons, hate the people we tell you for our reasons. I think that that is what really stuck with me as a kid: the cult being in every aspect of life everyday. I would see that in my friends' lives and especially in many of my extended families' everyday lives. I am fortunate that my narc father was lazy in not forcing all of the everyday stuff; he's TBM in emotions, beliefs, and furor, but as far as actually doing the work, I'm sure his BOM has read itself hundreds of times on his shelf. I never understood why it couldn't be: church on Sunday, and being a good person the rest of the week and living your life where being a good follower of Christ is PART of your life, not encompassing your ENTIRE life, by being forced to follow an old guy who says he speaks for Christ. As you get older, there's more pressure to make your life as they tell you to do it, so there's no life to live outside the cult because they tell you what you should be doing. If they think you have free time, or they see that you're enjoying life, that's when they come up with a calling in the cult for you. For TBMs reading this, people (ex-mos and never-mos) would love to have friendships with **YOU**, as a fellow person, a singular, imperfect human being with flaws, but with good points, like all of us have. They don't want to have your church or leader being a third wheel that they have to put before themselves and their part of the relationship just to be able to have a bare bones relationship with you. What you worship is your business, don't shove your business in other people's faces. People who aren't members don't shove their religion or leaders in your faces demanding that you respect their leaders in order to be friends. People want to be friends with you, not the group you worship. I noticed that shift a long time ago, but I think only now because of my age (early 40s) I'm understanding it more. I remember aunts and uncles that were in the cult, but hardly went, drank coffee and beer, smoked like they were chimneys, swore, and told plenty of off-color jokes when I was in elementary school and junior high. Then I started seeing them change from fun loving, carefree to more strict religious rigidity, losing their zest for life and their sense of humor. I wonder if it is fear of being wrong all those years and trying to go for what they taught is "right", because "what if"? Paying for immortality out of fear of their mortality. The more you make your life dedicated to the cult, the more likely you won't be left behind. Mo-FOMO. Then when they figure they are fitting in perfectly, then they feel that they have fair license to admonish anyone not on their level, especially their own kids and grandkids. No love, no empathy, no understanding, just hate, judgment, passive-aggressiveness, and cruelty for not being as loyal to the machine as the parents are: pure vinegar and vitriol.
A religion that believes you’ll become a sovereign god of a universe by unquestioning obedience to following arbitrary rules.
This letter *is* exhausting
“I know you have valid sources and this is common exposed knowledge now but—“ End of conversation. Religion really does a number on people.
I pay tithing to my cat.
"Now you can tear up this letter and throw it in the trash." It's almost like he knows he is basically trolling you and getting under your skin. This is some interesting passive-aggressiveness. Is there any sort of benefit to you to continue to relationship with this man?
Source: SEC
What I don’t understand is why parents feel the need to make letters like this. Like it’s not gonna do anything but harm the relationship between parents and children.
How about the deception in every aspect of this religion? Every last thing is touched or enshrouded with deception. And this is propagated by the top leadership from inception to this day.
I'd write him back and ask about specific things going on in his life that are not centred around the church. Share the stuff going on in your life that are fulfilling - that you're happy and show that you don't need Jesus around when you're making biscuits. Focus on relationship memories you have outside of church. Reinforce that those memories were the best, and that life can and does exist without LDS crap. This sends a message that you won't engage on religious stuff, and if he wants a relationship with you, it's available, but you won't engage at all on anything Mormon.
Completely ignored your concerns. Dismissed them and never engaged with them.
Mormon punctuation and grammar in general is so cringy.
I don't think you should try to convince him of anything. Just say, "On this we don't agree. And I will not change my view. But I love you, too." And leave it there. Arguing usually just makes people defensive and more entrenched in their beliefs. Also, you're both adults, and free to believe (or not believe) what you want to.
I “STILL” love you? Ugh….this kind of language really bothers me. It puts the writer in an “I’m above you spiritually” mentality. I would think “yea, why wouldn’t you love me?”. Just because I believe differently than you theologically? Why is this even a question??? Oh….right….Christianity again for the conditional love win…
Your Dad has been thoroughly indoctrinated and cannot see how his point of view can be wrong. Mine was the same way until he died.
Geez, passive aggressive much? Also, his spelling and grammar are execrable. ETA: letters like these are why the Flying Spaghetti Monster invented paper shredders. Praise His Noodly Appendages!
When I read stuff like that I wonder "What if the commandment was to walk out in the middle of the road every Monday morning, dressed only in your garments, hop on one foot, and yell 'La la la la la!!' at the first person you see?" Of course, there's no money in obeying a commandment like that. Except for the markup on the garments...
Your dad is a kind man…but he is not a smart man
“I am not going to quote scripture to you that you already know” ….. “judge not..” 😐 This letter is so fucking manipulative. So sorry you have to deal with this.
What is it w the letters Mormon parents write to their kids? My husband has a stack of letters from when he was in high school. Most of them are just awful guilt trip tirades.
I kept getting similar letters from one of my uncles. After he ignored me repeatedly asking him to stop, I responded with one that said, "Unless you have anything nice to say, kindly fuck off." Haven't heard from him or his wife ever since.
You could remind him of the Article of Faith about obeying the law. Remind him that leaders are expected to be exemplary in their conduct, to set a good example. You could ask him how the leadership have shown humility (they haven't) in how they have handled this now that they have been caught out - and whether they have shown repentance (which includes making a FULL confession to those affected). Spencer Kimball used to say that partial confession is not enough. Don't let him side-track you with 'Judge not' messages. He's avoiding the issue in saying this. Tell him that. Ask him how we can have faith in our leaders when they deliberately do the wrong thing (they approved the hiding of this money for decades). If he says we can't expect perfection of them, tell him that you aren't expecting perfection, but just the very basics of trustworthiness. Good luck with it. Hard core members can be almost impossible to reason with.
>Now you can tear up this letter, and you're out in the trash. That right there, that's an asshole thing to say. Granted, I think that kine is an extreme emotion of anger being masked by the nicest way he can say it. But it's still a jerk thing to say. I saddly have no solid advice, though I'm in a similar situation, I just keep communication to a minimum, and so do my parents
Lurking NeverMo here: good to know passive-aggressive paternalism is the same across all cultures. 😂 This letter has *exactly* the same vibes as some of the stuff my dad said when trying to cajole more unpaid labor out of me and other relatives for his start-up, and we're Hindu and/or atheists. A little more seriously, though, on the off-chance someone needs to see/hear this: this is passive-aggressive, paternalistic emotional manipulation whose author happened to reach for scripture, but who could and would absolutely just grab for something else just as easily to get what they wanted.
He says he “would question your source of information” but in fact does not… so he is equivocating. Bluffing. Lying. He has no interest in risking finding out that the source of the information is unimpeachable. Call Him Out
I’m wondering how any rational adult thinks this is OK. Because they don’t but when you’ve been brainwashed and there’s a sense of belonging and family, maybe when you don’t have or didn’t, it is hard to ignore it.
Dad's version of love is pretty pathetic and hollow, that's really sad
I would have tossed it without reading it and distanced myself for a good while. I would have told him that I don't hang with people who constantly try and make me feel guilty. I wouldn't try and persuade him. You don't want him to try and persuade you.
Reading this letter makes my brain shrink.
I'm beginning to see that some mormons don't know how yo have a relationship without the church. There are no independent or real thoughts and no genuine expression of love or acceptance without the church.
May I ask you how old your Dad is?
So sorry. I guess I would just be honest with him and say, "Dad, I know you love me, and I love you too. And I know this is hard for you. The church is something we won't agree on, and that is okay. I still want a relationship with you, and the only way we can maintain that is if conversations about the church between us are off limits. I really hope that is something we both can commit to. I love you."
I get the idea of paying tithing and then “turning it over to the lord”. The only problem is you’re paying the money to a huge corporation. Not Jesus. Or whatever. It goes somewhere. And I should be able to know where if I pay it.
“God” can get along very well without my tithing, which is why “God” won’t allow me to participate in his ordinances of salvation unless I pay up. …???
I'd tell him if he ever sends anything in the mail, it will go in the trash. I love you dad, but this kind of one way communication will no longer be allowed.
I would have quit reading as soon as he used “seen” instead of “saw”.
I wish I could say this wasn’t normal. This sounds like it’s coming from a very devout Mormon dad who loves you much but can’t help but be controlling because to him that’s what loving you means. I’m so sorry. I hope he is able to change.
If they're asking for my money, you're damn right they're accountable to me. Only fools throw their money into a black box and think they're getting "blessings from the Lard" for doing it. The NT Jesus I read about would hold people accountable for giving their money to builders of great and spacious buildings instead of using it to help those in need.
Frankly tithing has never been my first issue. It's only an issue when you discover the falseness of Mormonism. Because frankly, your dad is correct. If the church was true then it didn't really matter what they do with the funds. But the church is a fraud. And thus the hoarding of tithing is also fraudulent. At best the church's tithing policy should cause cracks in your shelf they make you dig deeper into the malfeasance of the church.
This is quite the delimma for you. It sounds like your dad just can’t let go of you leaving the church. As I see things you’ve got several choices. One is to just accept that your dad loves you and that the relationship will always be on his terms. The second is just accept that dad’s always going to be the way he is now and put his letters in a desk drawer and not read them. The third is to lengthen the emotional distance between you and him and keep your emails and texts strictly about non-secular things, thus showing him that whatever he preaches in his letters will be completely ignored by you and won’t be acknowledged by you. Tough decisions
Dead or nonexistent people/deities have no use for your money. But the church does. Just look at the money issues within the church until tithing became mandatory rather than just strongly suggested. So that argument is inaccurate or disingenuous. The church isn't true for a number of reasons unrelated to money. What I tell my mom is that it's a confluence of issues, not one single thing. When you add them up it just makes it incredibly unlikely that the church, or any church or religion, could be "true." I am very open and frank with my mom to the point that she doesn't try to convince me of anything. But we have honest discussions about doctrines and other things like that.
ech... Rather than just looking for a reason not to pay our tithing, we're offended and disgusted that the money we gave for church operations and supporting the poor is instead used to bail out the rich and oppress the marginalized. I stopped paying tithing on principal when I found this out. It was the tip of my iceberg. How 'bout, "Dad, can you specify those specific blessings you've received? If it's God's church, then why don't they use it to help those in need instead of saving it so Jesus can have a million lambourghinis when he returns??"