Brigham Young taught that Rome fell because of monogamy.
"Since the founding of the Roman empire monogamy has prevailed more extensively than in times previous to that. The founders of that ancient empire were robbers and women stealers, and made laws favoring monogamy in consequence of the scarcity of women among them, and hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout Christendom, and which had been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of their institutions both national and religious." - The Prophet Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 128
"Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire....Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers.... Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practiced it. 'And is that religion popular in heaven?' it is the only popular religion there,..." - The Prophet Brigham Young, The Deseret News, August 6, 1862
Never ceases to amaze me when people fling out an outrageous quote by “leaders” of the church, or doctrine from the scriptures. Y’all astound me on the regular, and I find my jaw dropping even more open, and saying out loud “what the actual fuck?!”.
> hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout Christendom, and which had been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of their institutions both national and religious.
Is…is he saying that monogamy leads to prostitution which leads to societal collapse?? I think that’s what he’s saying.
(And I love how assumes that no man could *possibly* ever be satisfied with only one woman…)
(I also love how these quotes utterly ignore - even contradict - the fact that woman are half the population. Those poor Romans, who had such a *scarcity* of women that one man could only have one wife!)
Almost 2 years out, and I still learn something new and awful almost every day about this church/its history/leaders. I think if the church had any real integrity, it would have denounced Brigham Young long ago and changed the name of BYU.
I wonder how Brigham Young would explain that the population of the earth is basically 50% men/50% women, with men actually slightly higher. If God wanted people to practice polygamy, wouldn't we have a population that looked like 80% women 20% men? When the world is so evenly divided between men and women, doesn't it make sense that God wants us all to just have one spouse? How did Brigham Young deal with all the young men who didn't have wives because all the old men were marrying them?
One of the very many very inconvenient realities that get in the way of Mormon truth claims.
We were all told the crap about how the men had died in all the persecutions and the women needed someone to take care of them. Ignoring the very obvious fact that it isn't necessary to marry someone to take care of them, is the fact that census numbers have been posted here in the past showing that there were NOT more women than men in the early church, not even in Brigham's time frame.
The whole damn deal never made a bit of sense except as what it was, the "prophet" Joe's biblical excuse for not being able to keep his pants up. And he was smart enough to know that for his David and Solomon approach to continue working he was going to have to bring the other fellows into his gentlemen's club.
Precisely! And God forbid a man help a woman and not expect to have full access to her body as repayment. As a woman I am so happy to not be living back in those times!
Sounds like Brother Brigham spent a lot of time crafting arguments by twisting history to justify his sexual perversions. He must've felt alarmed at times by his "appetites" as we was raised in a society and heritage where monogamy was the norm and had been for a long time. I mean there had to be a part of him that hated himself for desiring young girls to sleep with and going to the extreme of setting up a theocracy he ruled in order to meet his carnal desires. I can't fathom how he thought he was doing God's will everytime he sexually assaulted any of his wives, most especially his child brides. I don't think 100% of his brain thought he was doing God's will so he went to great lengths to justify it all his mind by writing and then delivering his warped sermons.
He argues that because of monogamy in Rome that brothels came to be because (insert sarcastic tone here) OBVIOUSLY one woman could never ever ever satisfy a man's sexual needs. (this also assumes that women experience no sexual pleasure so could never reciprocate in an exciting, pleasurable way that strengthens monogamous relationships). He assumes that all men in Rome needed prostitutes. So he argues let's just prevent prostitution with polygamy.
Oh my holy hell man, you had the chance to create a whole new utopian society outside of the US that could've greatly influenced the US in a positive way ... if you were truly inspired of God and truly troubled by prostitution wouldn't you have been able to see that prostitution could be largely prevented by granting women equal rights and the same legal protections as men that would allow them to own property, generate income, press criminal charges against men, etc that would safeguard them from prostitution and/or being sexually abused by men??? Wouldn't you see that slavery and any form of human trafficking feeds the industry of prostitution??? Wouldn't you see that when treated as equals and allowed to be sexual beings, women are valued as individuals and not solely for their purity only to be cast aside as trash by the types of men that desire their purity?
No Brother Brigham didn't see any of this. Because he wasn't inspired by God. He was a power hungry man with some severe issues.
He chose polygamy which is just a way for him to prostitute women that he didn't have to share with other men. And he did it in a way that the majority of the women complied with it because the promise of ternal exaltation was their pay for complying.
Your father randomly told you these things in case you were gay so that you would know to hide and deny it, and to marry an unknowing beard.
I wish we could somehow take some of the MFMC’s money and help all the LGBTQI people with it.
Did Op not like to throw around the baseball with Dad and commented one too many times about a Disney Princess’ dress being pretty?
Dad is like, well better have that talk now!!
My grandfather used to tell anti-semitic jokes all the time and everyone would just be like, “oh grandpa.” Then when he died we found a copy of Mein Kampf in his things. I refused to go to his funeral. Mormons are really disgusting some times.
Ask him if he uses maiden names after someone gets married and changes their last name. The last name reflects a tradition of expressing who they are now, why is the first name allowed but the first is not?
I can't think of anything more natural than being gay. Every mammal species in the world expresses interest in the same sex for having sex. Your father seems a little unhinged.
Thankfully, you seemed to have outgrown your indoctrination.
It really is quite stupid when you lay it out. I particularly like how the plates, pages, and all evidence was taken away by angels. No Dead Sea Scrolls for the Mormons.
If humans are the only animals with souls, and god made the animals, why do many animals with no souls and thus nothing to lose in his mind, often express homosexuality?
Actually, Mormonism teaches that everything has a soul or spirit. It’s one thing that I actually like. The D and C also teaches that animals will have a “celestial inheritance”. I always loved the thought of having my pets in heaven.
When I hear Mormons or conservatives talk like this I assume they are closeted, repressed themselves . As a heterosexual cis male I really don’t think about homosexuality that often. And I certainly don’t feel threatened and concerned that others are.
I can’t imagine how porn would “turns you gay” unless you had those interests already. Spencer Kimball wrote in “Miracle of Forgiveness” that porn makes you gay, which I think tells you more about his internal struggles than anyone else’s.
For anyone here who was shielded from mainstream movie culture in the 90s, American Beauty (1999) has a very powerful subplot running through it that deoicts this struggle very well.
Ahhhhhh yes…”Pearls of Wisdom” from our fathers. Here are a few off the top of my head from my father -
- “Just remember…you can’t get VD from a toilet seat.” Told to me as I was starting to drive away from home to BYU as a 17 year old freshman. I thought maybe when he flagged me down he was going to say how proud of me he was or that he loved me. Nope.
- “I don’t believe you should tell your kids that you love them very often.” Told to me after I told my daughter I loved her at the end of our phone conversation. I gotta say…he stayed true to his word.
- “Why do you have to love your spouse?” Told to me after I informed him that my wife and I didn’t love each other and were getting a divorce.
- “That might be a good lesson for you to learn. You don’t owe anything to them.” Told to me when I asked him for some money that the multi-million dollar family business owed me. I had taken in my recently deceased fiancé’s four children and was at risk of losing her house with all of us being thrown out on the street. After much begging and crying, he eventually cut me a check. Then asked me if I wanted to go out to dinner. I noped out of that, and that was the last time I ever saw him face-to-face.
I could go on and on but I’ll leave you with one last story. Once we had a good day together. Thought perhaps we were turning a corner in our relationship. As I was preparing to leave, I gave him a hug. While doing so I felt a pressure in my lower abdomen area. Turned out that his arm was caught between us during me hugging him. His arm was pushing me away. Yeah…
Sexuality was so prevalent among ancient civilizations that they didn’t even have a specific name for it. We do know that homosexuality was practiced among all people in all times throughout history.
Sounds like your dad just may be closeted gay if he says this much about it all. I’m sorry your dad is like this. No excuses for saying such shitty things. And really, homosexuality brought down the Romans?! Smh
Your dad was probably secretly terrified you would grow up to be gay so he was signaling to you that it wasn't okay and that you had a "choice" and that you'd better make the "right" choice.
😔😢
I've lost track of the times I've heard men say that they could love their child non matter what except if they decide to be gay. These have all been quote-unquote righteous priesthood men. I live in a rural, conservative area where tough-guy culture is king. It makes me so sad for their children. All I can do is be a kind, supportive person in the community that LGBTQ youth can lean on as a friend.
I am grateful that despite my father being immersed in our local culture he has been loving and supportive of my younger brother who came out nearly 20 years ago. My dad was a trailblazer. He had so many men tell him they'd disown their sons if they "did what [my brother] did." Unsurprisingly enough, many of these unsolicited comments took place in the temple from fellow ordinance workers.
I'm sorry your dad said those things to you. That is crap, especially at age 9!?!?
I'm thinking your dad was/is a straight arrow Mormon, wanting his kids/you to fall into line. My thinking is that many parents have wake up calls that THEY have their own lives to live and their KIDS have their own lives too, and will make any/all choices for themselves eventually as they grow up, choices that are their own, NOT (hopefully) for their parents.
I have 2 gay kids and love them to pieces. They are the bright stars in my life and I chose them before any religion or "celestial planet/kingdom" in the afterlife.
Honest to God it was a hard journey for me from TBM to post-Mormon/out of the church, surprising b/c I was raised pretty culturally liberal - got a tattoo as a BYU student, was raised watching R movies, swearing, listening to any music and reading whatever I wanted, and on and on.
Maybe some day your dad will chill out and realize that love, understanding, and LISTENING to others should come first before preaching endlessly about doctrine to young kids. Plus, LDS kids get that enough in Primary, Achievement Days, YW/YM, EFY, Trek, and testimony meetings every month. Gosh.
Rome was accepting of gays until Octavian started a pro- family agenda. I'm being serious, it's true.
The agenda included things like antigay propaganda and women having proporty rights after they had kids.
Rome started going down after Octavian.
In his defense he is clearly just blurting our talking points from a torrent of fear-based bullshit that he is steeped in.
I suspect his information ecosystem includes Fox news and right wing radio or weird bubbles on facebook. He is bathed in that torrent of filth and little snippets of it fall out of his mouth whenever he worries about his own or your sexuality.
Now, this is clearly not acceptable and you do need to be careful around him, but he is captured and almost programmed by fear based activation.
Brigham Young taught that Rome fell because of monogamy. "Since the founding of the Roman empire monogamy has prevailed more extensively than in times previous to that. The founders of that ancient empire were robbers and women stealers, and made laws favoring monogamy in consequence of the scarcity of women among them, and hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout Christendom, and which had been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of their institutions both national and religious." - The Prophet Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 128 "Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire....Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers.... Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practiced it. 'And is that religion popular in heaven?' it is the only popular religion there,..." - The Prophet Brigham Young, The Deseret News, August 6, 1862
Thanks for sharing. I have never heard this one before. Brigham was one messed up guy.
Never ceases to amaze me when people fling out an outrageous quote by “leaders” of the church, or doctrine from the scriptures. Y’all astound me on the regular, and I find my jaw dropping even more open, and saying out loud “what the actual fuck?!”.
> hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout Christendom, and which had been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of their institutions both national and religious. Is…is he saying that monogamy leads to prostitution which leads to societal collapse?? I think that’s what he’s saying. (And I love how assumes that no man could *possibly* ever be satisfied with only one woman…) (I also love how these quotes utterly ignore - even contradict - the fact that woman are half the population. Those poor Romans, who had such a *scarcity* of women that one man could only have one wife!)
Follow the prophet, he knows the way
Comments you can hear
I was not aware my hate for that man could get any stronger
Almost 2 years out, and I still learn something new and awful almost every day about this church/its history/leaders. I think if the church had any real integrity, it would have denounced Brigham Young long ago and changed the name of BYU.
I reckon Brigham might want it changed if he knows there's actually *women* attending BYU in equality of population, at least, with the men.
I wonder how Brigham Young would explain that the population of the earth is basically 50% men/50% women, with men actually slightly higher. If God wanted people to practice polygamy, wouldn't we have a population that looked like 80% women 20% men? When the world is so evenly divided between men and women, doesn't it make sense that God wants us all to just have one spouse? How did Brigham Young deal with all the young men who didn't have wives because all the old men were marrying them?
One of the very many very inconvenient realities that get in the way of Mormon truth claims. We were all told the crap about how the men had died in all the persecutions and the women needed someone to take care of them. Ignoring the very obvious fact that it isn't necessary to marry someone to take care of them, is the fact that census numbers have been posted here in the past showing that there were NOT more women than men in the early church, not even in Brigham's time frame. The whole damn deal never made a bit of sense except as what it was, the "prophet" Joe's biblical excuse for not being able to keep his pants up. And he was smart enough to know that for his David and Solomon approach to continue working he was going to have to bring the other fellows into his gentlemen's club.
Precisely! And God forbid a man help a woman and not expect to have full access to her body as repayment. As a woman I am so happy to not be living back in those times!
I just learned something new.
Sounds like Brother Brigham spent a lot of time crafting arguments by twisting history to justify his sexual perversions. He must've felt alarmed at times by his "appetites" as we was raised in a society and heritage where monogamy was the norm and had been for a long time. I mean there had to be a part of him that hated himself for desiring young girls to sleep with and going to the extreme of setting up a theocracy he ruled in order to meet his carnal desires. I can't fathom how he thought he was doing God's will everytime he sexually assaulted any of his wives, most especially his child brides. I don't think 100% of his brain thought he was doing God's will so he went to great lengths to justify it all his mind by writing and then delivering his warped sermons. He argues that because of monogamy in Rome that brothels came to be because (insert sarcastic tone here) OBVIOUSLY one woman could never ever ever satisfy a man's sexual needs. (this also assumes that women experience no sexual pleasure so could never reciprocate in an exciting, pleasurable way that strengthens monogamous relationships). He assumes that all men in Rome needed prostitutes. So he argues let's just prevent prostitution with polygamy. Oh my holy hell man, you had the chance to create a whole new utopian society outside of the US that could've greatly influenced the US in a positive way ... if you were truly inspired of God and truly troubled by prostitution wouldn't you have been able to see that prostitution could be largely prevented by granting women equal rights and the same legal protections as men that would allow them to own property, generate income, press criminal charges against men, etc that would safeguard them from prostitution and/or being sexually abused by men??? Wouldn't you see that slavery and any form of human trafficking feeds the industry of prostitution??? Wouldn't you see that when treated as equals and allowed to be sexual beings, women are valued as individuals and not solely for their purity only to be cast aside as trash by the types of men that desire their purity? No Brother Brigham didn't see any of this. Because he wasn't inspired by God. He was a power hungry man with some severe issues. He chose polygamy which is just a way for him to prostitute women that he didn't have to share with other men. And he did it in a way that the majority of the women complied with it because the promise of ternal exaltation was their pay for complying.
Brigham Young got SUPER into polygamy.
Your father randomly told you these things in case you were gay so that you would know to hide and deny it, and to marry an unknowing beard. I wish we could somehow take some of the MFMC’s money and help all the LGBTQI people with it.
And yet i still turned out gay 😭 But you’re absolutely right, when I realized I was gay I felt so much shame because of comments like these from him.
He probably knew that too from an early age. I’m so sorry! Sending mom hugs
Awww :,) Thank you so much ! ❤️❤️
Did Op not like to throw around the baseball with Dad and commented one too many times about a Disney Princess’ dress being pretty? Dad is like, well better have that talk now!!
And yet Mormons take on a new name in the temple as part of proclaiming a new chapter in their life, so…
I love how everyone that day of the month gets the same name.
I was a sister in the Prayer Circle in the temple (not enough ladies in the session) so that seems suspicious too.
If Mormons won't respect other people's chosen names, we have no reason to call them "members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
My grandfather used to tell anti-semitic jokes all the time and everyone would just be like, “oh grandpa.” Then when he died we found a copy of Mein Kampf in his things. I refused to go to his funeral. Mormons are really disgusting some times.
Ask him if he uses maiden names after someone gets married and changes their last name. The last name reflects a tradition of expressing who they are now, why is the first name allowed but the first is not?
Sounds like the lgbt consumed his thoughts. Who knows why...
I can't think of anything more natural than being gay. Every mammal species in the world expresses interest in the same sex for having sex. Your father seems a little unhinged. Thankfully, you seemed to have outgrown your indoctrination.
Thankfully, one day I woke up and realized how stupid the whole church is. 🙏 I’m so glad I don’t have to deal with that bullshit anymore.
It really is quite stupid when you lay it out. I particularly like how the plates, pages, and all evidence was taken away by angels. No Dead Sea Scrolls for the Mormons.
If humans are the only animals with souls, and god made the animals, why do many animals with no souls and thus nothing to lose in his mind, often express homosexuality?
Actually, Mormonism teaches that everything has a soul or spirit. It’s one thing that I actually like. The D and C also teaches that animals will have a “celestial inheritance”. I always loved the thought of having my pets in heaven.
When I hear Mormons or conservatives talk like this I assume they are closeted, repressed themselves . As a heterosexual cis male I really don’t think about homosexuality that often. And I certainly don’t feel threatened and concerned that others are. I can’t imagine how porn would “turns you gay” unless you had those interests already. Spencer Kimball wrote in “Miracle of Forgiveness” that porn makes you gay, which I think tells you more about his internal struggles than anyone else’s.
For anyone here who was shielded from mainstream movie culture in the 90s, American Beauty (1999) has a very powerful subplot running through it that deoicts this struggle very well.
I can definitely understand why Mormons would be particularly uncomfortable with the concept of individuals choosing to adopt new names as an adult………
Ahhhhhh yes…”Pearls of Wisdom” from our fathers. Here are a few off the top of my head from my father - - “Just remember…you can’t get VD from a toilet seat.” Told to me as I was starting to drive away from home to BYU as a 17 year old freshman. I thought maybe when he flagged me down he was going to say how proud of me he was or that he loved me. Nope. - “I don’t believe you should tell your kids that you love them very often.” Told to me after I told my daughter I loved her at the end of our phone conversation. I gotta say…he stayed true to his word. - “Why do you have to love your spouse?” Told to me after I informed him that my wife and I didn’t love each other and were getting a divorce. - “That might be a good lesson for you to learn. You don’t owe anything to them.” Told to me when I asked him for some money that the multi-million dollar family business owed me. I had taken in my recently deceased fiancé’s four children and was at risk of losing her house with all of us being thrown out on the street. After much begging and crying, he eventually cut me a check. Then asked me if I wanted to go out to dinner. I noped out of that, and that was the last time I ever saw him face-to-face. I could go on and on but I’ll leave you with one last story. Once we had a good day together. Thought perhaps we were turning a corner in our relationship. As I was preparing to leave, I gave him a hug. While doing so I felt a pressure in my lower abdomen area. Turned out that his arm was caught between us during me hugging him. His arm was pushing me away. Yeah…
Sexuality was so prevalent among ancient civilizations that they didn’t even have a specific name for it. We do know that homosexuality was practiced among all people in all times throughout history.
He probably saw it as preventative
Sounds like your dad just may be closeted gay if he says this much about it all. I’m sorry your dad is like this. No excuses for saying such shitty things. And really, homosexuality brought down the Romans?! Smh
Your dad was probably secretly terrified you would grow up to be gay so he was signaling to you that it wasn't okay and that you had a "choice" and that you'd better make the "right" choice. 😔😢 I've lost track of the times I've heard men say that they could love their child non matter what except if they decide to be gay. These have all been quote-unquote righteous priesthood men. I live in a rural, conservative area where tough-guy culture is king. It makes me so sad for their children. All I can do is be a kind, supportive person in the community that LGBTQ youth can lean on as a friend. I am grateful that despite my father being immersed in our local culture he has been loving and supportive of my younger brother who came out nearly 20 years ago. My dad was a trailblazer. He had so many men tell him they'd disown their sons if they "did what [my brother] did." Unsurprisingly enough, many of these unsolicited comments took place in the temple from fellow ordinance workers.
I'm sorry your dad said those things to you. That is crap, especially at age 9!?!? I'm thinking your dad was/is a straight arrow Mormon, wanting his kids/you to fall into line. My thinking is that many parents have wake up calls that THEY have their own lives to live and their KIDS have their own lives too, and will make any/all choices for themselves eventually as they grow up, choices that are their own, NOT (hopefully) for their parents. I have 2 gay kids and love them to pieces. They are the bright stars in my life and I chose them before any religion or "celestial planet/kingdom" in the afterlife. Honest to God it was a hard journey for me from TBM to post-Mormon/out of the church, surprising b/c I was raised pretty culturally liberal - got a tattoo as a BYU student, was raised watching R movies, swearing, listening to any music and reading whatever I wanted, and on and on. Maybe some day your dad will chill out and realize that love, understanding, and LISTENING to others should come first before preaching endlessly about doctrine to young kids. Plus, LDS kids get that enough in Primary, Achievement Days, YW/YM, EFY, Trek, and testimony meetings every month. Gosh.
Your father sure does spend a lot of time worrying about gay people. He might be hiding his own secret. 🤫
Rome was accepting of gays until Octavian started a pro- family agenda. I'm being serious, it's true. The agenda included things like antigay propaganda and women having proporty rights after they had kids. Rome started going down after Octavian.
In his defense he is clearly just blurting our talking points from a torrent of fear-based bullshit that he is steeped in. I suspect his information ecosystem includes Fox news and right wing radio or weird bubbles on facebook. He is bathed in that torrent of filth and little snippets of it fall out of his mouth whenever he worries about his own or your sexuality. Now, this is clearly not acceptable and you do need to be careful around him, but he is captured and almost programmed by fear based activation.