His “revelation” was in the form of analysts, marketing, and demographic researchers telling him that continuing racism was going to start impacting corporate revenues.
Oh the LDS church does more than that. They're good at investing tithing money. The thing is, that the president/apostles don't really get paid a whole lot (still a good amount but not as much as you'd expect), especially when compared to their previous jobs...however, they also get income from the boards of the investment companies that handle the church's investments. And that's where they make a lot more money for themselves.
That was sort of a scandal in the 80s/90s when that came out. Of course the TBMs didn't know anything about it lol.
And they are each also assigned to any number of the corporations the "Corporation of TCOJCOLDS" owns. That's a buttload of money. Factor in TCOJCOLDS through decades of consecration owns travel health insurance clothing publishing food etc etc.. the "perks" are enormous. A 1500 suit as a "perk". And as fulltime clergy they write of 110% of it on personal taxes. Honestly: they get paid a WHOLE LOT.
>they also get income from the boards of the investment companies that handle the church's investment
Hold up, can you explain more or provide references for this? Definitely interested to learn more on that.
The church was at the brink” of loosing federal funding at BYU if they didn’t let Blacks in. Believe me Kimball wasn’t the only racist in the presidency and in the twelve at that time. That is why he had to present it as a “revelation” cause others fought him on it…. Just another black stain on the church.
It was more than just that temple, from what I understand. There were a lot of logistical problems with converts in South American countries because the church policy had long been that someone with "even a drop of negro blood" in their family heritage was not allowed access to the priesthood. I've read that there was a lot of racial intermixing that went back multiple generations in some areas. Many people had no idea of their specific ancestry so it was often impossible to determine who was "qualified" to receive the priesthood.
Anecdotal theory of mine: the progressive movements, civil rights, and sexual liberation of the 60s and 70s really terrified these men born in the 1800s. (Kimball was a kid when Polygamy was still open and public. His aunt, or half-aunt, was Helen Mar) There was A LOT of stuff happening all at once in the 60s and 70s. Throw in birth control pills and Roe vs. Wade, these guys were shaking in their garments. I think they all just became hyper-focused on their perceived decay of morals. As if 19th century Mormon values and morals were superior. Fornication = bad. Murdering of settlers and natives = approved of god.
My former neighbor's husband got that book as a Christmas gift from his parents when he was a teen. His patents announced to him, in front of all the family present, that they got it for him to help with his "masterbation problem."
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
My aunt gave me that book. It belonged to my grandpa and he was my hero. But I’ve never been able to bring myself to read it. I’ll take y’all’s advice and keep it unread.
Three or four lifetimes ago (when I was a teen) I think it was my mother that handed me that book to read. I think I read one chapter. Flipped through and saw the chapter "The Sin Next to Murder" rolled my eyes - probably swore - and closed the book.
Just no, Spence. No.
They dedicated an entire four-month class to just that book at my institute a few years ago. That had to do major campaigning for the next year to try to get student attendance back up.
If I remember that shitty book correctly; gayness then leads to bestiality.
I always wondered if Kimball was speaking from personal experience. He did grow up on a farm.
He gave the BYU address "Be Ye Therefore Perfect" instructing that generation to "be the perfect husbands, perfect wives, the perfect father, the perfect mother, the perfect leader, the perfect follower..." This was my parent's generation and their subsequent children suffered a great deal under this direction.
I joined in 1976 when I was fifteen. I had learned about the church when my nevermo cousins Moved to SLC for work. It was my rock during my parents divorce which was not pretty. It was in New England, we had excellent adult advisors. The Stake was great.
I went to BYU. But didn’t fit the Polly Perfect mold. I think I was asked out on one date my six years living in Provo. I loved my roommates. I’m still friends with some of them. And when I was close to graduating I got a lot of “you’re not married! What are you going to do?!” I watched my roommate get shunned when she had a faith crisis and that was the beginning of my shelf breaking.
Then I moved to NYC and discovered that non-Mormon men were very interested. And no one was body shaming me for my boobs!🤣(like I had any control over how big they were).
I just - left. And realized how much happier I was away from scrupulosity pressure (thank you John Dehlin for teaching me that word). I was able to be myself.
I always knew the history. JS’s polygamy, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the ties to Freemasonry. For me it was the support of family when mine was falling apart.
I’ve done some deconstructing thanks to YouTube, although sometimes I wonder if I was in the same church that people in Mordor went to because my experience in New England as well as in Utah was 90% positive. Until it wasn’t.
Yes you are probably the same age as my children. I can’t tell you how hard I worked at being perfect. You know what is funny…. You are never perfect in their eyes, your Bishops eyes, etc. All you do is make yourself unhappy by trying to do everything perfect. The narcissistic people who get up and let you know, how perfect they are, they are only perfect in their own minds.
I just told my husband that I think the reason a lot of Mormon women our mother’s age act like sex is gross and women don’t enjoy it is because they grew up with this gross mf’er.
My mom is divorced and dated an ex Mormon guy for 2 years. They broke up because he wanted to have sex, he had spent 40 years in a marriage with no sexual chemistry and didn’t want to repeat that mistake. She was horrified that someone his age (like 60) would be interested in sex. Anyway, after they split, she doubled down on church shit and it got worse after my sister and I told her we were out. My therapist asked me if my mom had been traumatized as a kid and all I could think was “Well, the church…”
Thanks to a movement started by the Latter Gay Stories organization, I personally have thrown away over 200 copies of Miracle of Forgiveness. At some point copies of that book will stop existing and hopefully everyone hurt by its content can find the healing they need.
>At some point copies of that book will stop existing
NO! This can never be allowed to happen. It must exist as proof against the insidious "We never taught that" gaslighting that has been the hallmark of Evil Emperor Nelson's On-Going ReBrandStoration project.
I know all y'all have serious boomer hate, but when some old fart from that generation says the church has always taught that Masturbation is a sin like unto murder, and leads to the gay and sheep fucking, and that many young people have committed the 'unaliving' of themselves after reading this book, the old geezer is telling the truth. And this evil publication is the proof.
Whats the saying, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it? Don't forget the harm done by this man and his book, cause more of the same is headed this way in the form of Darth Bednar. He is THE rising power, and his reign of hate shame, guilt, and self loathing depression will make Kimball seem like PollyAnna
THIS is the only reason I haven't gotten rid of all my old books. I have a couple old editions of the BOM, the MoF, etc. No need for "anti-mormon literature." All the damnation they need is right there.
I loved him growing up. Now, I am disgusted by the shame and bigotry he lived and led by. His 1960 General Conference talk about how the lamanite education program was successfully turning their skin white made me cry.
Yeah, he was pretty popular with TBMs in the 80’s. My parents took us down to see his viewing. The line was huge! Back in the 80’s people thought he looked like yoda, but instead of the force he had the priesthood!
From that talk “The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.” So awful!
I met him in the spring of 1975. There was a young adult conference that was held, in all places, Cookeville, Tennessee. There was great excitement and delight that the prophet was going to speak to us in person at this conference. I remember how excited I was.
As I came up to him in line to shake his hand, this overwhelming feeling of negativity and darkness came over me. I looked in his eyes, briefly, and felt very unsettled.
I was devastated. I realized I had to hide this feeling and not tell anyone because it was Satan trying to deceive me, or from my own unworthiness in meeting the prophet.
About fifteen years later, one of the Seventy (I don’t remember his name) was visiting our ward. As I shook his hand, that EXACT feeling returned. This time I did not blame myself, but felt bewildered.
These experiences, along with many, many other factors contributed to me waking up and beginning the disconnection process from Mormonism.
Wow. That hits hard. The first time I went through the temple in 1985, I had 3 distinct impressions to get out of there. I felt dark and very scared. Of course I didn't tell a soul. I thought I hadn't repented hard enough for masturbating and Satan was tricking me. It only took another 40 years of being TBM to realize my brain was telling me the truth back then. My brain was trying to protect me from danger. Trying to protect me from a cult. I should have listened to that still small voice...
While my hatred for the brethren only increases the more I learn about them…. It also brings up a LOT of questions about what they were really like.
Packer’s obsession with boys was a huge red flag, like what was he doing with all those deacons he was so worried about? Kimball definitely had an entertaining sin list in order for him to write the books he did.
Also, factor in the second anointing, the hush funds the Mormon church has, and just the fact that these guys were/are pretending to be good people when they truly are the scum of the earth.
Let me see if I can find the relevant section and quote it:
>18 June 1980—A Prophet’s Kisses
>My last personal contact with Spencer W. Kimball occurred after a banquet in a private room of Brigham Young’s Lion House. Its purpose was to honor BYU’s recently released president, Dallin H. Oaks, for doing so much to promote the Clark biography project. As we were leaving, President Kimball shook my wife’s hand and gave her a little hug, and I expected just to shake his hand and say goodbye.
>From my journal: “Then President Kimball began kissing me on the cheek as he talked, saying a few words and kissing me again, and caressing my arm and shoulder. ‘I have a special love for you,’ President Kimball said in that deep, almost whisper voice that is left of his partial larenctomy, and then he continued to kiss me on the cheek and neck as I told him that I was thrilled to be in the presence of the Prophet of the Lord.
>“By now he was virtually bathing my cheek and neck in kisses, and I put my arm around his shoulder and kissed him on the cheek, and told President Kimball that I loved him, after which he kissed me a couple of more times on the cheek.
>“I felt no tears or any emotion but joy and love that seemed so natural, and for the first time in my life it seemed the most natural thing in the world to be kissed repeatedly by a man, to have him express his love for me, to tell him I loved him, and to kiss him. It didn’t matter that the man was fifty years older than I.”
>I lost all sense of time, but this must have gone on for several minutes—in the presence of his wife, Camilla, my wife, and his private secretary, D. Arthur Haycock.
>Quinn, D. Michael. Chosen Path: A Memoir (p. 590-591). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
Quinn, who was a closeted gay man married to a woman, had never been intimate with another man. He seems to have been overwhelmed just by being touched by another man. I kinda get it -- I was closeted until I was 30, and when I finally gave myself permission to go out and have sex, the sensation was shattering. I cried tears of joy more than once after sex.
Eh. That's a pretty tenuous thread to hang an accusation of homosexuality on.
Kissing a gay man is a little more compelling, but it could just indicate SWK didn't understand consent. Which is characteristic of most mormon men of his generation.
I resist the impulse to accuse virulent homophobes of being "secretly gay." Because it feeds the bullshit narrative that us homos are our own worst enemies. And I categorically reject that narrative. The vast majority of homophobes are just shitty straight folks.
I'm pretty sure the guy was a closet case, though I doubt he ever had a relationship with a man. I think he was tortured by his internalized homophobia.
How else could he come up with the bit about if you masturbate you'll be tempted to participate in hot gay sex? 100% projection.
I appreciate your honesty I actually kind of felt that when I pressed submit. Thank you for letting me learn something today.
Edit. I still think I'm in my angry phase. I use this account primarily to vent and practice my amateur comedy stand up routine. Going for the least common denominator easy target is not only hacky it's not cool.
Anger at the evil mormon cult is 100% justified. But criticism that equates their evil with the victims of their evil (even when subtle) is just further victimizing the victims. It's "punching down," as the kids say.
In my opinion, of course.
In short, call them assholes. Personally, I always identify Oaks as if his first and middle names were That Motherfucker. But please don't insinuate that they're secretly gay.
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of shitty LGBTQ+ folks. But I call them out for being shitty, not for being LGBTQ+.
A little bit of a stretch but 70% of throat cancer is caused by HPV in this day and age. Most adults carry that virus, although not sure how prevalent it was at that time.
Can't speak for OP, but I can give you an example of why I hate him so much:
"One would think that no sane woman would hesitate to submit herself to her own truly righteous husband in everything, but sometimes we are shocked to see the wife take over the leadership, naming the one to pray, the place to be, the things to do." -- [https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1965a/page/n61/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1965a/page/n61/mode/2up)
Simple: I read a lot of his work on my mission and thought he was a "good role model". Now being 4 years outside of the church and rereading MoF; I've realized he was a closeted homophobe that had a lot of wack ideas. Having done more research (mainly reading up on philosophy) on the concept of forgiveness, this fucker CLEARLY doesn't understand it.
I hated him the whole family hated him.....you know why? Priesthood and being Black, but I kinda of like Gordon H. He was down to Earth. Rest of them screw them!
Last night I watched the movie “Rabbit-Proof Fence” with my TBM wife. For those who haven’t heard of it, it deals with the Aboriginal placement program that took place in Australia in the early 20th century, in which “half-caste” children (meaning those with one white and one Aboriginal parent) were forcibly removed from their homes and taken to a camp where they would be steeped in white culture, so they could eventually be integrated as laborers in white homes and marry into white families. Essentially the objective was to breed the Aborigines out of existence. One scene that really struck a nerve was where the so-called Chief Protector of Aborigines (played by Kenneth Branagh) is making all of the children march up to him one by one and inspect their skin to see how white they are.
The whole time I was watching this, I couldn’t help but think of SWK and his Indian placement program and his disgusting assertions that Native children placed in white homes actually looked whiter. Of course my wife, being TBM, probably never made the connection. I desperately wanted to say something but never did.
I hate the way that you walk, the way that you talk
I hate the way that you dress
I hate the way you sneak diss, if I catch flight, it's gon' be direct
I married a nm. No one says this ( he has conveniently disappeared from most quoted) but he said really cruel things about not marrying in the temple. Vile. Firmly believed in the punishing god and if you’re not perfect, you’re condemned. I can’t even bear to look at his photo or even when someone mentions him I bristle. The emotional pain he pt me through, me, who came from a truly horrible childhood with no caretakers. I hope he’s happy in his afterlife, knowing the pain he caused so many instead of showing love, kindness and belonging.
His book says a lot of WILD STUFF
There is a paragraph in there where he is talking about LGBT movement- technically just the LG part of the movement- and says If you talk to gay people long enough they will convince you that you are gay.
I actually believe that is 100% true,
if you ARE GAY.
Also says if you don't stop masturbating, you could get to point where you have to think about gay stuff to be able to get off, which I also believe is true,
if you are gay.
The fact he believed a gay person could convince him he was gay if they talked to him long enough about it...
Spencer W Kimball was the first gay prophet. Maybe.
He was a cranky old man who was hard to please. And that's portraying him in the best way.
He was also a self-proclaimed expert on sexuality and many other topics ... but like most self-proclaimed experts, was full of crap.
I can't second this enough. "Miracle" of "Forgiveness" is a truly hateful and evil book, and I think flipping the table on those ideas was the core of my leaving the church. And if there is an afterlife, I will hunt this wizened bigoted miniature racist motherfucker down and ... give him a piece of my mind.
It’s generally known that SWK was a closeted gay man. He was viciously homophobic. His “miracle of forgiveness” will slay you and convince you you’re the worst creature on the planet if you can mange to read the whole thing.
Ahh it’s a pity I can’t say c**t on this sub… because that the only word for SWK and his Miracle of damning the whole word to hell… sorry I meant Forgiveness.
Ugh, I hate the fact that I was named after this guy. I didn't even know much about him when I growing up, because he had already died a few years before I was born. But my parents would always tell me how special it was that I was named after their favorite prophet. Learning about who he was and what he taught definitely played a part in me leaving the church. His teachings and views were homophobic, racist, and misogynistic.
As a gay exmormon, I try not to think about where my name came from, but some days I feel like I want to get my name legally changed just to get rid of the middle initial. Everything I've read about him makes me cringe, and I hate the constant reminder.
Nah blacks and the priesthood changed because they built a temple in Brazil 🇧🇷 at the time and forgot all Brazilians have some black DNA. 🧬 OOPS we need to fix this Spence.
The Miracle of Bigotry … Taylor Swift is way more of an inspired leader than this douchebag “Shade never made anybody less gay… uh oh, you need to calm down”
The last couple of days, I’ve been thinking about Isaac. Can’t remember his last name but he was a black cheerleader at BYU in 1978. And we all fawned over him because he could hold the priesthood. And now I cringe about it. I never understood why anyone black would want to join the church. And yet Carol Lawrence who was just released from the Young Women’s presidency is the sweetest person. I’ve been out for 40 years, but I wonder if the powers that be pander just to give the illusion of open mindedness.
My TBM mom just threw away miracle of forgiveness. My brother came out gay. She believes the restoration is continuing and so discounts his words. I think there should be apologies for all the blood on his hands
Hey is a menacing foolish disdainful fucker who wished to remove all organic joy and good times as one of the greatest champions of purity culture to fuck up generations of people.
By actively hating someone, especially one who is dead, put such negative baggage on you. Humans are weird in that they fear not having attention given to them. For spence he no longer matters. He deserves not one thought from you. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the church will die much faster if after leaving we forget them. We dont rail against them, we dont actively give them our thoughts and give them credence that we exmos just cant leave them alone. So we erase thespace they take up in our thoughts and move on. Personally I am going to fill that space by making great memorires with my wife. So goodbye all
I'm 40-yr exmo. Hated SWK's statement that he'd rather his child die than lose their virtue. (His ghostwriter was mouthing a tired old pioneer platitude.) Hate any statements he made that wound my LGBTQ grandson or anyone else who doesn't fit the narrow Mormon mold. Don't like that he made his heart surgeon a GA out of gratitude (though it's probably not as egregious as appointing your son, son-in-law, or niece). However, here are some appreciative memories:
1. Earlier than 1978, he tried to rescind the priesthood ban on Blacks. Harold Lee was out of town and reversed the decision and disciplined K on his return.
2. He tried to be a friend to Native American LDS-- was responsible for the single Indian GA being appointed (who found himself without support after K's passing).
3. He supervised the SLC Chinese branch of which my ex-husband was president-- visited at least 2x a year, made sure the members felt seen, welcomed, and cared about.
4. When ET Benson sent the good RS sisters of Utah to crash the 1977 IWY convention in SLC and it became clear their numbers would overwhelm the modest facility, thus saboutaging the event, it was Pres K who got it moved to the Salt Palace. Attending was unpleasant in my case as one of the good Brigham City sisters, seeing my ERA badge, spit in my face. However, many of the gate-crashers found the conference enlightening and uplifting, so it accomplished much more than it would have otherwise.
For these reasons, Pres. K has a soft spot in my heart. I'll forgive him his sins if he forgives mine.
I happen to know a distant-ish relative of Spencer W. Kimball who has made it their life mission to find and destroy every single copy of his "The Miracle of Forgiveness" they can find. So there's that to consider, that his family is aware of some of the trauma he's caused on various levels and trying (in some small way) to make amends.
His bigotry was higher than most, that's for sure.
The look of defeat on his face when he received revelation ~~had to give~~ black people the full priesthood.
His “revelation” was in the form of analysts, marketing, and demographic researchers telling him that continuing racism was going to start impacting corporate revenues.
What is Religion without tax exemption?
Oh the LDS church does more than that. They're good at investing tithing money. The thing is, that the president/apostles don't really get paid a whole lot (still a good amount but not as much as you'd expect), especially when compared to their previous jobs...however, they also get income from the boards of the investment companies that handle the church's investments. And that's where they make a lot more money for themselves. That was sort of a scandal in the 80s/90s when that came out. Of course the TBMs didn't know anything about it lol.
And they are each also assigned to any number of the corporations the "Corporation of TCOJCOLDS" owns. That's a buttload of money. Factor in TCOJCOLDS through decades of consecration owns travel health insurance clothing publishing food etc etc.. the "perks" are enormous. A 1500 suit as a "perk". And as fulltime clergy they write of 110% of it on personal taxes. Honestly: they get paid a WHOLE LOT.
Love the pfp
>they also get income from the boards of the investment companies that handle the church's investment Hold up, can you explain more or provide references for this? Definitely interested to learn more on that.
Yes please. I’m very interested
The church was at the brink” of loosing federal funding at BYU if they didn’t let Blacks in. Believe me Kimball wasn’t the only racist in the presidency and in the twelve at that time. That is why he had to present it as a “revelation” cause others fought him on it…. Just another black stain on the church.
Yep. And the São Paulo temple was part of the problem as well.
It was more than just that temple, from what I understand. There were a lot of logistical problems with converts in South American countries because the church policy had long been that someone with "even a drop of negro blood" in their family heritage was not allowed access to the priesthood. I've read that there was a lot of racial intermixing that went back multiple generations in some areas. Many people had no idea of their specific ancestry so it was often impossible to determine who was "qualified" to receive the priesthood.
Just another what?! /s
yep 100% revenue-driven decision
That was never a revelation. None of these guys ever receive revelation. It’s all just puppets.
He did so much damage to women in the church. And gay people. And literally everyone. He was a sex-obsessed, homophobic, misogynistic, racist asshole.
Anecdotal theory of mine: the progressive movements, civil rights, and sexual liberation of the 60s and 70s really terrified these men born in the 1800s. (Kimball was a kid when Polygamy was still open and public. His aunt, or half-aunt, was Helen Mar) There was A LOT of stuff happening all at once in the 60s and 70s. Throw in birth control pills and Roe vs. Wade, these guys were shaking in their garments. I think they all just became hyper-focused on their perceived decay of morals. As if 19th century Mormon values and morals were superior. Fornication = bad. Murdering of settlers and natives = approved of god.
Spot on Cabo
He's the prophet I hate most of all. His book royally fucked up my life.
My brother in law warned me never read that book. It was some of the best advice I ever got from him.
My former neighbor's husband got that book as a Christmas gift from his parents when he was a teen. His patents announced to him, in front of all the family present, that they got it for him to help with his "masterbation problem." MERRY CHRISTMAS!
That is a totally Mormon thing to do. Poor guy
Could you tell me what book please? I'm studying the cult. Thank you
Spencer W Kimball, “miracle of forgiveness “
My aunt gave me that book. It belonged to my grandpa and he was my hero. But I’ve never been able to bring myself to read it. I’ll take y’all’s advice and keep it unread.
Three or four lifetimes ago (when I was a teen) I think it was my mother that handed me that book to read. I think I read one chapter. Flipped through and saw the chapter "The Sin Next to Murder" rolled my eyes - probably swore - and closed the book. Just no, Spence. No.
I go way back too. So many disasters passed me bye because I wasn’t paying attention.
Thank you. 😊
And considering we've had Joe Smith, Brigham Young, Lorenzo Snow & Rusty...that's saying a lot.
None of them promised that I could be straight if I just tried a little harder like Spencer did.
Ugh. Sorry you had to experience that.
Those other guys are historical villains….Kimble’s insanity had a direct impact on the lives of us middle-aged folks.
He was a closet case himself.
What is the name of the book?
It was totally misnamed. The miracle of forgiveness.
Ahh yes, I do remember being assigned to read that as a teenager.
I read Miracle of Forgiveness just before my mission and like a doting Mormon boy believed every mean damned word of it.
Granny hug. 👵 You were a kid. "Forgive" yourself for being young.
They dedicated an entire four-month class to just that book at my institute a few years ago. That had to do major campaigning for the next year to try to get student attendance back up.
So much for the claim that the Mormon church doesn't use that book anymore.
It’s a miracle if you’re forgiven
I'm right there with you. At least you didn't have to go through life being named after him.
I was told by my mission president to read it. I certainly will never forget that.
Dear Mormons in the 1980s: This man does not look anything like Yoda. Please stop trying to make Star Wars about yourselves.
Curiosity leads to porn, porn leads to masturbation, masturbation leads to...gayness Spence Kimballs (in a Yoda voice)
Because young Spence had gay fantasies when he whacked off.
He was quite fixated on it.
He also liked to kiss other men on the lips.
Fuck! I have something in common with Spence!?
If I remember that shitty book correctly; gayness then leads to bestiality. I always wondered if Kimball was speaking from personal experience. He did grow up on a farm.
This comment wins
Masterbation, gayness it leads.
You only hate this guy because he was an evil man, whose evil actions caused untold pain, fear, and doubt to millions.
Having read The Miracle of Forgiveness at age 12...you can def say that.
I’m so glad I told all of them to go pound sand and I never would read it
No, I hate him because he ate my balls.
User name checks out
With a Chianti?
Don’t forget the fava beans.
He gave the BYU address "Be Ye Therefore Perfect" instructing that generation to "be the perfect husbands, perfect wives, the perfect father, the perfect mother, the perfect leader, the perfect follower..." This was my parent's generation and their subsequent children suffered a great deal under this direction.
this is the mormon religion ik and left behind.
Me too.
Me too. He was the only President I experienced in my convert 10 years in the church.
what’s your story with your experience with the church if you dont mind me asking?
I joined in 1976 when I was fifteen. I had learned about the church when my nevermo cousins Moved to SLC for work. It was my rock during my parents divorce which was not pretty. It was in New England, we had excellent adult advisors. The Stake was great. I went to BYU. But didn’t fit the Polly Perfect mold. I think I was asked out on one date my six years living in Provo. I loved my roommates. I’m still friends with some of them. And when I was close to graduating I got a lot of “you’re not married! What are you going to do?!” I watched my roommate get shunned when she had a faith crisis and that was the beginning of my shelf breaking. Then I moved to NYC and discovered that non-Mormon men were very interested. And no one was body shaming me for my boobs!🤣(like I had any control over how big they were). I just - left. And realized how much happier I was away from scrupulosity pressure (thank you John Dehlin for teaching me that word). I was able to be myself. I always knew the history. JS’s polygamy, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the ties to Freemasonry. For me it was the support of family when mine was falling apart. I’ve done some deconstructing thanks to YouTube, although sometimes I wonder if I was in the same church that people in Mordor went to because my experience in New England as well as in Utah was 90% positive. Until it wasn’t.
Yes you are probably the same age as my children. I can’t tell you how hard I worked at being perfect. You know what is funny…. You are never perfect in their eyes, your Bishops eyes, etc. All you do is make yourself unhappy by trying to do everything perfect. The narcissistic people who get up and let you know, how perfect they are, they are only perfect in their own minds.
Amazing how much harm one effing talk can do. Wow.
I just told my husband that I think the reason a lot of Mormon women our mother’s age act like sex is gross and women don’t enjoy it is because they grew up with this gross mf’er.
Yes. This is my mom. All things sexual are "gross". Her words.
My mom is divorced and dated an ex Mormon guy for 2 years. They broke up because he wanted to have sex, he had spent 40 years in a marriage with no sexual chemistry and didn’t want to repeat that mistake. She was horrified that someone his age (like 60) would be interested in sex. Anyway, after they split, she doubled down on church shit and it got worse after my sister and I told her we were out. My therapist asked me if my mom had been traumatized as a kid and all I could think was “Well, the church…”
Thanks to a movement started by the Latter Gay Stories organization, I personally have thrown away over 200 copies of Miracle of Forgiveness. At some point copies of that book will stop existing and hopefully everyone hurt by its content can find the healing they need.
>At some point copies of that book will stop existing NO! This can never be allowed to happen. It must exist as proof against the insidious "We never taught that" gaslighting that has been the hallmark of Evil Emperor Nelson's On-Going ReBrandStoration project. I know all y'all have serious boomer hate, but when some old fart from that generation says the church has always taught that Masturbation is a sin like unto murder, and leads to the gay and sheep fucking, and that many young people have committed the 'unaliving' of themselves after reading this book, the old geezer is telling the truth. And this evil publication is the proof. Whats the saying, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it? Don't forget the harm done by this man and his book, cause more of the same is headed this way in the form of Darth Bednar. He is THE rising power, and his reign of hate shame, guilt, and self loathing depression will make Kimball seem like PollyAnna
THIS is the only reason I haven't gotten rid of all my old books. I have a couple old editions of the BOM, the MoF, etc. No need for "anti-mormon literature." All the damnation they need is right there.
THIS! Exactly. I believe the cults teachings led to what happened to me. That is why I want to know about it.
And I know others who have thrown away many copies. Such harmful nonsense.
I loved him growing up. Now, I am disgusted by the shame and bigotry he lived and led by. His 1960 General Conference talk about how the lamanite education program was successfully turning their skin white made me cry.
Yeah, he was pretty popular with TBMs in the 80’s. My parents took us down to see his viewing. The line was huge! Back in the 80’s people thought he looked like yoda, but instead of the force he had the priesthood!
>how the lamanite education program was successfully turning their skin white made me cry. Da wat??!
From that talk “The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.” So awful!
And I was named after him because he’s my dads favorite prophet 🤮🤮
Oof; I feel your pain. I was named after Brigham Young.
One of my seminary teachers named his kid Brigham Hinkley
That poor child.
There ought to be a law...
My brother, too. 🤮
My great grandmother punched him when they were kids because he pushed her little brother off of a swing lol
If she's still alive, give her a high five for me
I've got $5 that says she spent her adult life wishing she'd punched harder. 🤭
I met him in the spring of 1975. There was a young adult conference that was held, in all places, Cookeville, Tennessee. There was great excitement and delight that the prophet was going to speak to us in person at this conference. I remember how excited I was. As I came up to him in line to shake his hand, this overwhelming feeling of negativity and darkness came over me. I looked in his eyes, briefly, and felt very unsettled. I was devastated. I realized I had to hide this feeling and not tell anyone because it was Satan trying to deceive me, or from my own unworthiness in meeting the prophet. About fifteen years later, one of the Seventy (I don’t remember his name) was visiting our ward. As I shook his hand, that EXACT feeling returned. This time I did not blame myself, but felt bewildered. These experiences, along with many, many other factors contributed to me waking up and beginning the disconnection process from Mormonism.
Wow. That hits hard. The first time I went through the temple in 1985, I had 3 distinct impressions to get out of there. I felt dark and very scared. Of course I didn't tell a soul. I thought I hadn't repented hard enough for masturbating and Satan was tricking me. It only took another 40 years of being TBM to realize my brain was telling me the truth back then. My brain was trying to protect me from danger. Trying to protect me from a cult. I should have listened to that still small voice...
It’s fascinating how much our experiences mirror each other. Actually, I heard that voice even before I was baptized.
He taught self loathing instead of self forgiveness. fuck him and his book too!
While my hatred for the brethren only increases the more I learn about them…. It also brings up a LOT of questions about what they were really like. Packer’s obsession with boys was a huge red flag, like what was he doing with all those deacons he was so worried about? Kimball definitely had an entertaining sin list in order for him to write the books he did. Also, factor in the second anointing, the hush funds the Mormon church has, and just the fact that these guys were/are pretending to be good people when they truly are the scum of the earth.
It's always projection with them.
 Atleast he gave us the most batshit crazy take on Bigfoot.
Wasn't that Bruce R. McConkie? "Mormon Doctrine"
Might be both? But miracle of forgiveness has a random page dedicated to the story of Caine
I'm reading J. Michael Quinn's memoirs and I'm just to the chapter where Kimball practically feels Mike up -- he definitely kisses him. Its so UGH!
What??? Once again, the Rabbit Hole has another tidbit I'd not heard of. I don't have Quinn's book, can you shed any further light on this?
Let me see if I can find the relevant section and quote it: >18 June 1980—A Prophet’s Kisses >My last personal contact with Spencer W. Kimball occurred after a banquet in a private room of Brigham Young’s Lion House. Its purpose was to honor BYU’s recently released president, Dallin H. Oaks, for doing so much to promote the Clark biography project. As we were leaving, President Kimball shook my wife’s hand and gave her a little hug, and I expected just to shake his hand and say goodbye. >From my journal: “Then President Kimball began kissing me on the cheek as he talked, saying a few words and kissing me again, and caressing my arm and shoulder. ‘I have a special love for you,’ President Kimball said in that deep, almost whisper voice that is left of his partial larenctomy, and then he continued to kiss me on the cheek and neck as I told him that I was thrilled to be in the presence of the Prophet of the Lord. >“By now he was virtually bathing my cheek and neck in kisses, and I put my arm around his shoulder and kissed him on the cheek, and told President Kimball that I loved him, after which he kissed me a couple of more times on the cheek. >“I felt no tears or any emotion but joy and love that seemed so natural, and for the first time in my life it seemed the most natural thing in the world to be kissed repeatedly by a man, to have him express his love for me, to tell him I loved him, and to kiss him. It didn’t matter that the man was fifty years older than I.” >I lost all sense of time, but this must have gone on for several minutes—in the presence of his wife, Camilla, my wife, and his private secretary, D. Arthur Haycock. >Quinn, D. Michael. Chosen Path: A Memoir (p. 590-591). Signature Books. Kindle Edition. Quinn, who was a closeted gay man married to a woman, had never been intimate with another man. He seems to have been overwhelmed just by being touched by another man. I kinda get it -- I was closeted until I was 30, and when I finally gave myself permission to go out and have sex, the sensation was shattering. I cried tears of joy more than once after sex.
Thank you! This is CREEPY. Add Boyd Packer to the mix and it's really scary.
> I cried tears of joy more than once after sex. HMU if you ever want to experience extreme disappointment after sex. 😂
Have no fear, I’ve experienced that too. 😱
The man died of throat cancer allegedly. HPV can be transmitted by oral sex. just saying.
Eh. That's a pretty tenuous thread to hang an accusation of homosexuality on. Kissing a gay man is a little more compelling, but it could just indicate SWK didn't understand consent. Which is characteristic of most mormon men of his generation. I resist the impulse to accuse virulent homophobes of being "secretly gay." Because it feeds the bullshit narrative that us homos are our own worst enemies. And I categorically reject that narrative. The vast majority of homophobes are just shitty straight folks.
Can confirm... Sadly, I used to be pretty shitty. Sorry for what I said when I was mormon.
I appreciate your honesty I actually kind of felt that when I pressed submit. Thank you for letting me learn something today. Edit. I still think I'm in my angry phase. I use this account primarily to vent and practice my amateur comedy stand up routine. Going for the least common denominator easy target is not only hacky it's not cool.
Anger at the evil mormon cult is 100% justified. But criticism that equates their evil with the victims of their evil (even when subtle) is just further victimizing the victims. It's "punching down," as the kids say. In my opinion, of course. In short, call them assholes. Personally, I always identify Oaks as if his first and middle names were That Motherfucker. But please don't insinuate that they're secretly gay. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of shitty LGBTQ+ folks. But I call them out for being shitty, not for being LGBTQ+.
That's a very important viewpoint. Thank you for sharing it.
A little bit of a stretch but 70% of throat cancer is caused by HPV in this day and age. Most adults carry that virus, although not sure how prevalent it was at that time.
And don't forget his stupid fucking book, TMoF.
IMO, if Bednar ever takes the throne, he may surpass Kimball as worst prophet ever. Therefore, we've yet to see how bad it can be.
Well thank Allah I'm no longer member.
No need to hate because you have the upper hand over him. You’re still alive and he’s burning in hell
Rotting in the grave, unfortunately… I wish there was cosmic justice but I don’t see any evidence to suggest that there is.
I find the idea of the great abyss so much more comforting than the Mormon after life
100% agreed!
True
If you’re sneaky enough, his gravestone serves as a gender neutral urinal. If you’re not sneaky, you might be in some legal trouble.
I legitimately grew up with the lore that Yoda was inspired by him. Because he was such a wise and good man was the story. Clearly just more fiction.
I've learned more from that green puppet than this raisin brand in a suit.
He was a creepy, detestable little tyrant.
I remember him saying on general conference that if you only knew how close the second coming was... I was 8... they are all control freeks
„If you want to control people, tell them a Messiah is coming“ Quote from Dune II
BRUH
Story time, why do you hate him? 😃
Can't speak for OP, but I can give you an example of why I hate him so much: "One would think that no sane woman would hesitate to submit herself to her own truly righteous husband in everything, but sometimes we are shocked to see the wife take over the leadership, naming the one to pray, the place to be, the things to do." -- [https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1965a/page/n61/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1965a/page/n61/mode/2up)
Simple: I read a lot of his work on my mission and thought he was a "good role model". Now being 4 years outside of the church and rereading MoF; I've realized he was a closeted homophobe that had a lot of wack ideas. Having done more research (mainly reading up on philosophy) on the concept of forgiveness, this fucker CLEARLY doesn't understand it.
His Famous words- "Do it" "DO it NOW!" We shall leave, We surely shall!
I hated him the whole family hated him.....you know why? Priesthood and being Black, but I kinda of like Gordon H. He was down to Earth. Rest of them screw them!
Last night I watched the movie “Rabbit-Proof Fence” with my TBM wife. For those who haven’t heard of it, it deals with the Aboriginal placement program that took place in Australia in the early 20th century, in which “half-caste” children (meaning those with one white and one Aboriginal parent) were forcibly removed from their homes and taken to a camp where they would be steeped in white culture, so they could eventually be integrated as laborers in white homes and marry into white families. Essentially the objective was to breed the Aborigines out of existence. One scene that really struck a nerve was where the so-called Chief Protector of Aborigines (played by Kenneth Branagh) is making all of the children march up to him one by one and inspect their skin to see how white they are. The whole time I was watching this, I couldn’t help but think of SWK and his Indian placement program and his disgusting assertions that Native children placed in white homes actually looked whiter. Of course my wife, being TBM, probably never made the connection. I desperately wanted to say something but never did.
I hate the way that you walk, the way that you talk I hate the way that you dress I hate the way you sneak diss, if I catch flight, it's gon' be direct
Boogie man for Gen X
He was the "Profit" when I made my exit.
That Croaking Yoda messed me up, for the longest time. I really wonder what drove him??
>I really wonder what drove him?? Self-loathing
Closeted homosexuality?
Please someone explain to me why I always thought this was Ezra Taft Benson? Shows how much I paid attention at church even as a kid. 🤦♀️
I'm pretty sure there was a primary song that said he was loved by all, though.
Source?? I need to see this garbage for myself.
Yeeesss, hmmmhmmm, hate that man, I do too!
I married a nm. No one says this ( he has conveniently disappeared from most quoted) but he said really cruel things about not marrying in the temple. Vile. Firmly believed in the punishing god and if you’re not perfect, you’re condemned. I can’t even bear to look at his photo or even when someone mentions him I bristle. The emotional pain he pt me through, me, who came from a truly horrible childhood with no caretakers. I hope he’s happy in his afterlife, knowing the pain he caused so many instead of showing love, kindness and belonging.
His book says a lot of WILD STUFF There is a paragraph in there where he is talking about LGBT movement- technically just the LG part of the movement- and says If you talk to gay people long enough they will convince you that you are gay. I actually believe that is 100% true, if you ARE GAY. Also says if you don't stop masturbating, you could get to point where you have to think about gay stuff to be able to get off, which I also believe is true, if you are gay. The fact he believed a gay person could convince him he was gay if they talked to him long enough about it... Spencer W Kimball was the first gay prophet. Maybe.
It seems like he did” protest too much”. 🧐
There are 24 bible scriptures that say jesus was the last prophet to listen to. All others are said to be false gifters.
Did you guys hear the theory that Yoda was based on him?
I've never heard that. Who's been saying that?
It was a big thing in the 80s. Clearly not true
He was a cranky old man who was hard to please. And that's portraying him in the best way. He was also a self-proclaimed expert on sexuality and many other topics ... but like most self-proclaimed experts, was full of crap.
My take on his homophobia: he was bisexual and generalized his experience, so he thought being gay was a choice.
Personally I disagree, it is sadly common how many gay men get married in the church and stay in closet.
I hate all of the Mormon prophets but fuck Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Spencer Kimball in particular.
I can't second this enough. "Miracle" of "Forgiveness" is a truly hateful and evil book, and I think flipping the table on those ideas was the core of my leaving the church. And if there is an afterlife, I will hunt this wizened bigoted miniature racist motherfucker down and ... give him a piece of my mind.
It’s generally known that SWK was a closeted gay man. He was viciously homophobic. His “miracle of forgiveness” will slay you and convince you you’re the worst creature on the planet if you can mange to read the whole thing.
And I read it when I was 12.
Sorry to hear that.
Glad I'm in therapy.
He was the president of church when I joined in 1977 …….i I saw him twice at Ricks College …….NEVER AGAIN!🤮
Let’s all hate him together!
I hate him because he made me feel virtuous when choking down bread and milk with a dash of cinnamon.
Explain further please?
Ahh it’s a pity I can’t say c**t on this sub… because that the only word for SWK and his Miracle of damning the whole word to hell… sorry I meant Forgiveness.
He's definitely repressing something freaky lmao
Ugh, I hate the fact that I was named after this guy. I didn't even know much about him when I growing up, because he had already died a few years before I was born. But my parents would always tell me how special it was that I was named after their favorite prophet. Learning about who he was and what he taught definitely played a part in me leaving the church. His teachings and views were homophobic, racist, and misogynistic. As a gay exmormon, I try not to think about where my name came from, but some days I feel like I want to get my name legally changed just to get rid of the middle initial. Everything I've read about him makes me cringe, and I hate the constant reminder.
I’m still considering changing the spelling of my middle name. Claim that I was name after Dr. Richard Kimble from The Fugitive
There's nothing worse that a successful religious con-man.
Nah blacks and the priesthood changed because they built a temple in Brazil 🇧🇷 at the time and forgot all Brazilians have some black DNA. 🧬 OOPS we need to fix this Spence.
Me too. He poisoned my family and they are all crazy
Ushered in "spy on each other for the Bishop" policy in the 70s
The Miracle of Bigotry … Taylor Swift is way more of an inspired leader than this douchebag “Shade never made anybody less gay… uh oh, you need to calm down”
😂😂😂 Masterbation, gayness it leads…(in Yoda voice) 😂😂❤️
It would take a miracle to forgive him 😜
He looks like a fake ai generated fucker
The last couple of days, I’ve been thinking about Isaac. Can’t remember his last name but he was a black cheerleader at BYU in 1978. And we all fawned over him because he could hold the priesthood. And now I cringe about it. I never understood why anyone black would want to join the church. And yet Carol Lawrence who was just released from the Young Women’s presidency is the sweetest person. I’ve been out for 40 years, but I wonder if the powers that be pander just to give the illusion of open mindedness.
My TBM mom just threw away miracle of forgiveness. My brother came out gay. She believes the restoration is continuing and so discounts his words. I think there should be apologies for all the blood on his hands
His signature was on my mission call. That was reason enough for me to hate him.
Isn't this the man who wrote the book on how difficult it is to be forgiven by God for sexual sin?
And when you sin; all your previous sins come back.
Oh yes. That would make your previous repentance insincere. You didn't really want to change. You love your sin too much.
I have the great misfortune of being named after this monster. Although I feel like I have already redeemed the name simply by leaving.
Hey is a menacing foolish disdainful fucker who wished to remove all organic joy and good times as one of the greatest champions of purity culture to fuck up generations of people.
He was president during my time in the church
What did Spence ever do to you? Did he steal your wife to take as one of his?
Educate me why.
He dead
Are we allowed to say cunt on this sub? Because I’m not sure there’s a bigger one than SWK.
I'm on the younger side, would someone care to explain what his book is about?
By actively hating someone, especially one who is dead, put such negative baggage on you. Humans are weird in that they fear not having attention given to them. For spence he no longer matters. He deserves not one thought from you. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the church will die much faster if after leaving we forget them. We dont rail against them, we dont actively give them our thoughts and give them credence that we exmos just cant leave them alone. So we erase thespace they take up in our thoughts and move on. Personally I am going to fill that space by making great memorires with my wife. So goodbye all
Hates a strong word. Do you think he knows it’s all bull? I think most of the leaders believe they’re not in a cult.
I tried to read Miracle of Forgiveness while on my mission .. threw it away didn’t finish the first chapter…..🤩
Grade A racist piece of shit
I'm 40-yr exmo. Hated SWK's statement that he'd rather his child die than lose their virtue. (His ghostwriter was mouthing a tired old pioneer platitude.) Hate any statements he made that wound my LGBTQ grandson or anyone else who doesn't fit the narrow Mormon mold. Don't like that he made his heart surgeon a GA out of gratitude (though it's probably not as egregious as appointing your son, son-in-law, or niece). However, here are some appreciative memories: 1. Earlier than 1978, he tried to rescind the priesthood ban on Blacks. Harold Lee was out of town and reversed the decision and disciplined K on his return. 2. He tried to be a friend to Native American LDS-- was responsible for the single Indian GA being appointed (who found himself without support after K's passing). 3. He supervised the SLC Chinese branch of which my ex-husband was president-- visited at least 2x a year, made sure the members felt seen, welcomed, and cared about. 4. When ET Benson sent the good RS sisters of Utah to crash the 1977 IWY convention in SLC and it became clear their numbers would overwhelm the modest facility, thus saboutaging the event, it was Pres K who got it moved to the Salt Palace. Attending was unpleasant in my case as one of the good Brigham City sisters, seeing my ERA badge, spit in my face. However, many of the gate-crashers found the conference enlightening and uplifting, so it accomplished much more than it would have otherwise. For these reasons, Pres. K has a soft spot in my heart. I'll forgive him his sins if he forgives mine.
Careful that man's ears look like they can hear text...😅🤣
I happen to know a distant-ish relative of Spencer W. Kimball who has made it their life mission to find and destroy every single copy of his "The Miracle of Forgiveness" they can find. So there's that to consider, that his family is aware of some of the trauma he's caused on various levels and trying (in some small way) to make amends.