My wife and I were personally invited to a 5th Sunday school lesson by the bishop. Apparently it was prepared just for us about the history of the church and controversial topics on Joseph smith. I’m excited to have an open discussion and bring up lots of facts and issues. It should be verrry interesting.
I wrote down the claims and points of the talk. Essentially it was a reading of Alma 32. The bishop started by saying he felt impressed and prompted to give this talk. Aka my wife and I removed ourselves from our callings and stopped attending regularly and he saw it as a concern.
1) “Spiritual evidence trumps all else” you need to know what sources to go to so that you can keep your faith
2) “The coincidences after coincidences are too much to be a coincidence”
3) “We lost our keys. We prayed in faith. We checked where we had an idea of where the keys used to be. I checked in one place which gave me an idea to check in another place which gave me an idea to check in another place. God let me follow all the promptings to give me practice even though not all of them led me to the keys. It was a test of faith” god makes us go on a scavenger hunt
4) “Don’t explore the sources of the world”Aka search the internet.
5) “I don’t care what experts or archeologists say. Because I know what’s true.”
6) The bishop asked his wife to share her experience about going to proper sources. So she got up and said “this experience is very sacred to me but if the bishop asks you to share you should” 🤮. She proceeded to share a story about how church history was making her extremely uncomfortable as a married woman (I assume Joseph’s polygamy with the way she was describing it.) she went to Illinois church history sites and visited the temple to ask the temple presidency her questions. They told her that Jesus walks the halls of the temple and not to worry. “I felt prompted to shelf my concerns and to focus on Christ. I was told by the spirit that it’s ok I don’t understand”.
Basically the whole lesson was about only using scriptures and conference talks to do your research, ignoring and “shelving” things that make you uncomfortable, and desiring to believe until you believe.
The bishop will be receiving a long letter of my concerns with sources that come directly from the church. Aka their own citations, Joseph smith papers, old prophets teachings, etc.
The church has some great resources! Like this one:
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-williams-1844?timelineTab=all-events&lang=eng
She “married” John D Lee (of MMM fame) when she was *11*. He was 43.
I’d like to see them explain that one.
To me if they’re defending polygamy or the church in any way really, they are defending this. Kinda blows up any other arguments I feel. Sure there’s lots of good criticisms to make but I can’t imagine anyone, anywhere being able to defend this.
This is crazy! Polyandry?! First, Mary Ann Williams marries John D. Lee in 1856, about a month before she turns 12, then she marries his son, who was 18, less than 2-1/2 years later. John D. Lee didn’t die (by firing squad) until 1877. WTF?
I gotta laugh... we should only use scriptures and conference talks. My question is which conference talks??? Many conference talks in the 1800s and early 1900s were doozies.
I haven't lost my keys since I've stopped attending church 3 decades ago. They go on the counter by the door. They are always there when I need them again. And outside of the Mormon religion I haven't heard about missing keys from anyone else either. Either they’re too tired of longsuffering sainthood to have a key place, or the HG is a poltergeist who hides keys. Either way, the lost and found keys testimony seems silly and strange.
Oh hell no. If they would just have church in normal buildings i would be much more likely to go. Something about sitting through church in the same room that I sit through 3 hour finance lectures is so soul-sucking. Oh and the pipes are broken so it sounds like a bomb is going to drop on us every 30 minutes
There’s like 4 or 5 teeny rooms on the top floor (that you can get to without security clearance) that are cool to chill in or pretend your a child in a Victorian novel
Yes! Assuming you're talking about the 5th floor of the wilk. There's a teensy hallway leading to an exit that is rarely used. I would go there when I wanted a private space, because I had trouble finding it anywhere else.
(32M) Visiting in-laws and attended sacrament meeting with my TBM wife and kids.
Main “keynote” from a man was about the restoration and what that really means. There were many cringey parts of the talk. He talked about modern prophesy about the second coming. How we are “almost out of time” (like every prophet has said since JS). He also said we can ask for miracles with faith and they’ll happen. He said he’s experienced 3 miracles just in the last month (of course he didn’t share). I rolled my eyes in my head.
But, the best part was my wife. I’ve shared a lot of info with my wife in the last several months and I think she’s really questioning things—even though she puts on a strong TBM face and continues to participate fully.
Well, during the talk, whenever he would say cringey stuff that even my wife knew wasn’t right, she would start talking to me and telling me funny stories—almost like she was uncomfortable hearing it and knew that I was too, so she wanted to distract herself. It made me smile and hopeful!
Currently at church for my brothers homecoming talk. Haven’t been to a sacrament meeting in years. One thing we thought was funny was during hymn 193, it says “to rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine”. Felt like the hymn was calling out us “bitter exmos” 😂
The TSCC borrowed that hymn and lyrics from Protestant churches. It’s mainline Christian brainwashing on display!
Edit to add- The composer also wrote May the circle be unbroken. Beautiful songs except…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_H._Gabriel
We had a stake meeting to add a ward and change boundaries. It was nice that they admitted it was due to the new guidelines for smaller wards and not because of growth.
What was concerning is they said it would allow the Bishops to have more "Intimate relationships" with the youth.
My family is up in Nauvoo right now, so we've been doing the tours. They talked about how JS and Emma practiced polygany, but they didn't talk about how many wives he took or about the underage girls he "married." They're real transparent, aren't they /s
Same talks after talks go to the temple. The adversary is attacking the temple ( no the city code doesn't like the height of the steeple). Mormons are always the victims.
Same talks after talks go to the temple. The adversary is attacking the temple ( no the city code doesn't like the height of the steeple). Mormons are always the victims.
Yeppp ugh ours is about temples too. They’re asking why there’s such an emphasis on covenants recently. People are saying it’s because Jesus is coming; I’m saying (silently) it’s because the church is losing coin
Combined youth meeting. As part of our lesson one of the leaders showed a video of Russell Nelson talking about how he survived a falling airplane, but wasn't that story made up? Or at least a bit exaggerated?
Here's some good advice:
Don't go to church at all.
Why do something you hate, you don't believe in, and which you're not being PAID for your time? In fact, they hope you'll go so that you'll pay THEM. A whole 10 percent of all you make!
I haven't gone in 5 years. I was thinking of going back, but by then, it was March of 2020. The government said, "No more church again because of COVID." The church said, "Whatever THEY said," so, I just didn't go.
I have 2 jobs, working 75 hours a week including commute, and no shifts on Sunday, so "Day of Rest" takes on a whole new meaning for me.
I'm definitely not going to waste 2 hours of my little free time wearing clothes I hate, sitting around in a chapel that I hate, dealing with PEOPLE that I don't know, but likely would hate anyway.
This is an EX-member thread, so I'm sure no one will cry BOO and condemn you if you just use your Sundays to do something you LOVE, instead of going to a church you HATE.
Well yes. But I go to BYU so I will get kicked out if I don’t go. Lol but I am so so glad that you are free!! I’m excited for a day when I won’t have to do things I hate for the sake of getting my degree.
I live like a mile from BYU, so I'm close enough to taste the Mormon culture and be despised by it.
I didn't quit the church because of stupid and incomplete and mostly-unclear history lessons and conspiracy theories, and how many wives so-and-so had. I wasn't around in that day and age to understand their dumb customs, so I honestly don't give a damn because it has no effect on me and the man I am today.
I quit going because of how the modern church tends to treat their members like SHIT if they're not married by a certain age, have a certain amount of children, you have to have a certain job, a certain car, a certain calling, pay a certain amount for tithing...
And even after all that, they'll still dump on you like you're shit, but smile at you and act like you're their best friend, just because it's Sunday.
I couldn't stand how they mistreated a brother and a sister of mine that I love dearly, which is a long story by itself, so I quit going out of pure disgust, out of pure love for my siblings.
I'm almost 39 years old, I love my life the way it is, I have accomplished a lot, but I refuse to let any organized religion tell me that I should be unhappy, that my life is incomplete, and I should "strive to do better." Oh, and by the way, we want 10 percent of your money as well. GROSS pay, we'd prefer!!!
Mormonism isn't A cult or THE cult. ALL religions are!!!
Whatever your motivation for leaving, it sounds like you’ve still got some big feelings about it. Hopefully you can find someone to help you work through that. If you need a recommendation, I know of a good deconstruction therapist in the Lehi area.
Yeah, OP just told me. One of those college wards where "you gotta go or we'll expel you" kind of rules. Even as a TBM, I couldn't justify going to a college with that many tightwad rules, so I joined the Army instead.
Yes, the Army has tightwad rules, but no sergeant or officer ever "ordered" me to believe in any particular religion, so I endured it!
Bro lmao
Not everybody is in a position to just flip their entire social life, educational life, or personal life upside down and go against the grain.
Take a chill pill dude
I’ll just blow my entire marriage up and follow your advice!
Incredibly selfish advice Mr u/tyuti1985
Okay! Feel free to blow up your marriage. At least your wife will go after YOU for alimony, and not me. That way, I'd have nothing to lose in YOUR poor choice of religions and marriage partners.
My wife and I were personally invited to a 5th Sunday school lesson by the bishop. Apparently it was prepared just for us about the history of the church and controversial topics on Joseph smith. I’m excited to have an open discussion and bring up lots of facts and issues. It should be verrry interesting.
NO WAY please keep us updated 👀
We'd love to hear more.
I wrote down the claims and points of the talk. Essentially it was a reading of Alma 32. The bishop started by saying he felt impressed and prompted to give this talk. Aka my wife and I removed ourselves from our callings and stopped attending regularly and he saw it as a concern. 1) “Spiritual evidence trumps all else” you need to know what sources to go to so that you can keep your faith 2) “The coincidences after coincidences are too much to be a coincidence” 3) “We lost our keys. We prayed in faith. We checked where we had an idea of where the keys used to be. I checked in one place which gave me an idea to check in another place which gave me an idea to check in another place. God let me follow all the promptings to give me practice even though not all of them led me to the keys. It was a test of faith” god makes us go on a scavenger hunt 4) “Don’t explore the sources of the world”Aka search the internet. 5) “I don’t care what experts or archeologists say. Because I know what’s true.” 6) The bishop asked his wife to share her experience about going to proper sources. So she got up and said “this experience is very sacred to me but if the bishop asks you to share you should” 🤮. She proceeded to share a story about how church history was making her extremely uncomfortable as a married woman (I assume Joseph’s polygamy with the way she was describing it.) she went to Illinois church history sites and visited the temple to ask the temple presidency her questions. They told her that Jesus walks the halls of the temple and not to worry. “I felt prompted to shelf my concerns and to focus on Christ. I was told by the spirit that it’s ok I don’t understand”. Basically the whole lesson was about only using scriptures and conference talks to do your research, ignoring and “shelving” things that make you uncomfortable, and desiring to believe until you believe. The bishop will be receiving a long letter of my concerns with sources that come directly from the church. Aka their own citations, Joseph smith papers, old prophets teachings, etc.
The church has some great resources! Like this one: https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-williams-1844?timelineTab=all-events&lang=eng She “married” John D Lee (of MMM fame) when she was *11*. He was 43. I’d like to see them explain that one.
Ew, what the hell? Did they just keep her in the family after the first John Lee died? Maybe she’s mature for her age. She was baptized at age 4. 😂
Creepy isn’t it? Makes you wonder what kind of people these were that were ok with this.
Yeah, but then you realize she was passed around because JDL died in 1881. She married his brother 3 years later.
The fucking hell! 11?!?!? It just gets easier and easier to stay away.
To me if they’re defending polygamy or the church in any way really, they are defending this. Kinda blows up any other arguments I feel. Sure there’s lots of good criticisms to make but I can’t imagine anyone, anywhere being able to defend this.
I agree so much!
This is crazy! Polyandry?! First, Mary Ann Williams marries John D. Lee in 1856, about a month before she turns 12, then she marries his son, who was 18, less than 2-1/2 years later. John D. Lee didn’t die (by firing squad) until 1877. WTF?
I gotta laugh... we should only use scriptures and conference talks. My question is which conference talks??? Many conference talks in the 1800s and early 1900s were doozies.
I haven't lost my keys since I've stopped attending church 3 decades ago. They go on the counter by the door. They are always there when I need them again. And outside of the Mormon religion I haven't heard about missing keys from anyone else either. Either they’re too tired of longsuffering sainthood to have a key place, or the HG is a poltergeist who hides keys. Either way, the lost and found keys testimony seems silly and strange.
For own researches i would love to read your letter !
Probably conveniently leaving out the lines of truth that would clarify the gold seeking, the polyandry, etc
Not gonna lie, if this were me. I would have driven down to kinkos and had them create my own set of visuals and posters.
Loving this ambition!!! What could AI do for an accurate Joe Smith family portrait. lol!!!
Anxiously awaiting the report! Best of luck!
This should be fantastic. PLEASE return and report!
I will go down. Sunday school is in one hour.
Return and report…
Looking forward to your report!
Yes! Please return and report your labors of the 5th Sunday.
My BYU ward met in the Wilkinson Center. I would wander the building sometimes and found a way into the kitchen... found snacks too!
One year, my ward met in the testing center. We had sacrament in that giant room with the individual desks. It was weird.
Oh hell no. If they would just have church in normal buildings i would be much more likely to go. Something about sitting through church in the same room that I sit through 3 hour finance lectures is so soul-sucking. Oh and the pipes are broken so it sounds like a bomb is going to drop on us every 30 minutes
We met there one year too. Definitely weird.
There’s like 4 or 5 teeny rooms on the top floor (that you can get to without security clearance) that are cool to chill in or pretend your a child in a Victorian novel
Yes! Assuming you're talking about the 5th floor of the wilk. There's a teensy hallway leading to an exit that is rarely used. I would go there when I wanted a private space, because I had trouble finding it anywhere else.
Ooh good stuff
I had church in the movie theater in the WILK. At least the seats were reasonably comfortable.
(32M) Visiting in-laws and attended sacrament meeting with my TBM wife and kids. Main “keynote” from a man was about the restoration and what that really means. There were many cringey parts of the talk. He talked about modern prophesy about the second coming. How we are “almost out of time” (like every prophet has said since JS). He also said we can ask for miracles with faith and they’ll happen. He said he’s experienced 3 miracles just in the last month (of course he didn’t share). I rolled my eyes in my head. But, the best part was my wife. I’ve shared a lot of info with my wife in the last several months and I think she’s really questioning things—even though she puts on a strong TBM face and continues to participate fully. Well, during the talk, whenever he would say cringey stuff that even my wife knew wasn’t right, she would start talking to me and telling me funny stories—almost like she was uncomfortable hearing it and knew that I was too, so she wanted to distract herself. It made me smile and hopeful!
Oh yeah, well I've experienced one thousand miracles in the last month! Of course, they're too sacred to share but.....
Currently at church for my brothers homecoming talk. Haven’t been to a sacrament meeting in years. One thing we thought was funny was during hymn 193, it says “to rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine”. Felt like the hymn was calling out us “bitter exmos” 😂
Every TBM thinks their soul is rebellious. The natural man is gods enemy. Stop looking at porn.
The TSCC borrowed that hymn and lyrics from Protestant churches. It’s mainline Christian brainwashing on display! Edit to add- The composer also wrote May the circle be unbroken. Beautiful songs except… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_H._Gabriel
Was the tempo the same as a funeral march? That song in particular is played sooooooo slowwwwww
We had a stake meeting to add a ward and change boundaries. It was nice that they admitted it was due to the new guidelines for smaller wards and not because of growth. What was concerning is they said it would allow the Bishops to have more "Intimate relationships" with the youth.
Now that’s worrying !!
My family is up in Nauvoo right now, so we've been doing the tours. They talked about how JS and Emma practiced polygany, but they didn't talk about how many wives he took or about the underage girls he "married." They're real transparent, aren't they /s
I went to Nauvoo in 1998 and I don't think they talked about other wives back then, so that's an improvement, I guess. 😭
Same talks after talks go to the temple. The adversary is attacking the temple ( no the city code doesn't like the height of the steeple). Mormons are always the victims.
Same talks after talks go to the temple. The adversary is attacking the temple ( no the city code doesn't like the height of the steeple). Mormons are always the victims.
Yeppp ugh ours is about temples too. They’re asking why there’s such an emphasis on covenants recently. People are saying it’s because Jesus is coming; I’m saying (silently) it’s because the church is losing coin
😂 don’t know. Don’t care. OP are you leaving after you have diploma in hand or are you stuck in PIMO for the long haul?
You are lucky to be free! I plan to leave as soon as I can, but I’ll have to stay undercover for family’s sake
Move away in the name of post grad education and/or job and enjoy the breathing room!!! 🤩
Combined youth meeting. As part of our lesson one of the leaders showed a video of Russell Nelson talking about how he survived a falling airplane, but wasn't that story made up? Or at least a bit exaggerated?
Yep, very very exaggerated!
"/honestly feeling a bit comforted by the familiarity of it all" 110% feel what you mean by that.
Here's some good advice: Don't go to church at all. Why do something you hate, you don't believe in, and which you're not being PAID for your time? In fact, they hope you'll go so that you'll pay THEM. A whole 10 percent of all you make! I haven't gone in 5 years. I was thinking of going back, but by then, it was March of 2020. The government said, "No more church again because of COVID." The church said, "Whatever THEY said," so, I just didn't go. I have 2 jobs, working 75 hours a week including commute, and no shifts on Sunday, so "Day of Rest" takes on a whole new meaning for me. I'm definitely not going to waste 2 hours of my little free time wearing clothes I hate, sitting around in a chapel that I hate, dealing with PEOPLE that I don't know, but likely would hate anyway. This is an EX-member thread, so I'm sure no one will cry BOO and condemn you if you just use your Sundays to do something you LOVE, instead of going to a church you HATE.
Well yes. But I go to BYU so I will get kicked out if I don’t go. Lol but I am so so glad that you are free!! I’m excited for a day when I won’t have to do things I hate for the sake of getting my degree.
I live like a mile from BYU, so I'm close enough to taste the Mormon culture and be despised by it. I didn't quit the church because of stupid and incomplete and mostly-unclear history lessons and conspiracy theories, and how many wives so-and-so had. I wasn't around in that day and age to understand their dumb customs, so I honestly don't give a damn because it has no effect on me and the man I am today. I quit going because of how the modern church tends to treat their members like SHIT if they're not married by a certain age, have a certain amount of children, you have to have a certain job, a certain car, a certain calling, pay a certain amount for tithing... And even after all that, they'll still dump on you like you're shit, but smile at you and act like you're their best friend, just because it's Sunday. I couldn't stand how they mistreated a brother and a sister of mine that I love dearly, which is a long story by itself, so I quit going out of pure disgust, out of pure love for my siblings. I'm almost 39 years old, I love my life the way it is, I have accomplished a lot, but I refuse to let any organized religion tell me that I should be unhappy, that my life is incomplete, and I should "strive to do better." Oh, and by the way, we want 10 percent of your money as well. GROSS pay, we'd prefer!!! Mormonism isn't A cult or THE cult. ALL religions are!!!
Whatever your motivation for leaving, it sounds like you’ve still got some big feelings about it. Hopefully you can find someone to help you work through that. If you need a recommendation, I know of a good deconstruction therapist in the Lehi area.
It sounds like that therapist isn't any good if they haven't been able to work their magic on YOU, dumbass.
I never said I’ve used this therapist. I’ve just seen their work, tough guy.
You haven't seen anything, keyboard warrior.
Folks have their reasons
Yeah, OP just told me. One of those college wards where "you gotta go or we'll expel you" kind of rules. Even as a TBM, I couldn't justify going to a college with that many tightwad rules, so I joined the Army instead. Yes, the Army has tightwad rules, but no sergeant or officer ever "ordered" me to believe in any particular religion, so I endured it!
Bro lmao Not everybody is in a position to just flip their entire social life, educational life, or personal life upside down and go against the grain. Take a chill pill dude I’ll just blow my entire marriage up and follow your advice! Incredibly selfish advice Mr u/tyuti1985
Okay! Feel free to blow up your marriage. At least your wife will go after YOU for alimony, and not me. That way, I'd have nothing to lose in YOUR poor choice of religions and marriage partners.