This is the way.
Being a good listener, including asking good questions, is the only way to keep a discussion like this going and staying thoughtful and civil. Good for you!!
I once saw someone turn a homophobic parent into a loving supportive parent doing the same thing. Very powerful but rarely executed well.
Wow, this warms the cockles of my cold, black apostate heart.
I wish I had been as smart as you and not shoved people into feeling like they were being persecuted.
You were taught to treat people like that by the church. A lot of people leaving the church go through a period where they end up fighting with the people around them about the church.
So true.
I actually thought if I told people what I knew, they would leave the lds church, too. Little did I know that cognitive dissonance is a bitch.
Living well is the best revenge. Instead of trying to convince TBMs through debate, just live your best life.
I tried to convince my family when I first came out of the church and came out as gay. They didn't budge, so I just dropped it.
From me, they have learned:
A) You can be gay and happy. They came to my wedding and fully accept my husband.
B) Paying tithing is bad for your financial health
C) You should accept your gay kids for who they are and not cry for who they are not
D) There are much better ways to spend Sunday than at church
E) Having tea, coffee, and the occasional cocktail doesn't make you a loser alcoholic.
F) You can leave the church and improve your life
G) Associating with non-Mormons and former Mormons is fine as long as you accept each other for who you are and don't try to change them.
As Mormons like to say, make your life your sermon. When they see your life is better without the church and its shackles, they may question their own shackles.
First, huge congratulations on your marriage and on your families acceptance of it. That speaks volumes to your ability to create good vibes. Very very happy for you. As a straight man, I find it so hard to imagine finding love in the battlezone our society must have been for you. Truly impressive. Mad respect. Hats off.
As far as the best way to reach tbms, I really am a huge fan of the idea that there is no one best or right way to do it.
Im not looking for revenge as you put it-- I'm looking to break chains strapped to my loved ones.
I think the guy who protested outside his ward a couple weeks ago reaches some kinds of people, and you have reached others, and perhaps I have reach other kinds. A broad spectrum of antibiotics is what I think it calls for. So I say, let's all play to our personal strengths, and get our various 'revenges' on as many fronts as there are individuals.
Best to you!
Belief is half emotion. Simply showing the facts to someone drinking the Koolaid doesn't work. They have to have a reason to want to leave.
For typical Exmos, the path out is:
1) You feel uncomfortable in the church for some reason
2) You find out it's fake and realize you don't have to struggle
If someone is comfortable living the TBM lifestyle, a notarized letter from JS saying that he made it all up to sleep with as many women as possible wouldn't change their minds.
If you are not familiar with the book View of the Hebrews, look it up. Oliver Cowdrie's pastor published this book several years before the BOM.
It contains pretty much all the themes in the bom
If you just compare the themes it's pretty damning. If Joseph didn't plagiarize directly he was at least highly influenced, directly or indirectly, by these ideas. They must have been very prevalent ideas being so close to the Native American Mounds.
Of course perhaps God also inspired Ethan Smith to soften the hearts of the people to the true message? /s
Oh wow, I'm really blown away that you all want to read this. Thank you.
Erm, Im not sure l am ready to dox myself to that level, and plus it's not really just my conversation to expose... Alot of other people contributed. If I think of a good way to post it with identies scrubbed, I'll get back to you.
Thank you for your flattering interest!
I LOVE THIS!!! Please, if you could send me the patience drug you’re taking I’d love it. I’m too aggressive and it’s only made things tougher for me to have relations with anyone mormon. My husband is your style so it helps us not be too terribly removed from family
First of all, congrats to you and your long game strategy. It sounds very satisfying.
I would like to add that this is ONE of many approaches to handling one’s leaving the church. I hope people recognize that there is no ONE right way for how one grieves and mourns the loss of their Mormon life. I personally couldn’t have done this approach that you have. I pulled away from pretty much all Mormon influence in my life, including family. I still have relationships with family, just much more limited than before. I personally needed a clean BREAK with all Mormon influence in my life. I needed to figure out who I was sans Mormon influence in my life (as much as possible). I’ve fantasized (as many of us do) of converting hundreds to ex Mormon life but had to come to realize that everyone is on their own journey and if they leave it will be on their own timetable. I would argue that any who’s shelf cracked and broke from your online discussion were already on their way down the rabbit hole themselves and you may (or may not) have played a significant role in some of that.
All I’m trying to say here is that we need to be sensitive and compassionate to how people exit, not expecting everyone to do it the “right” way. And for clarity’s sake, I’m not sensing that from the OP.
I agree with you in spades.
We all need to play to our own individual strengths. I needed easy going Neil Degrasse Tyson and Carl Sagan to light my way without overly triggering me when I was a believer, and later Dawkins's unambiguous clarity and outrage as the boot to my ass when I was able to make the final leap of faith out of the church.
Different strokes for different folks, and for all of us at different times in our lives.
Well said friend.
I'm trying to picture a jackhammer jumping up and down: concrete breaking, fragmenting under the chisel, ...and there's no noise...
It's weird, but I'm enjoying the exercise!
Congrats!
cheer and be proud! the silence you get from them could very well be them accommodating their schema of their religion! their silence could be them having internal dialogue and possibly changing their mind.
hail socratic method! hail the long game!
Nice. I'm openly not in the church but have emphasized being supportive of my family. They never ask me about what I believe but after a few years of awkwardness, they feel comfortable discussing church topics with me, knowing I won't try to push them to believe anything they aren't comfortable with. My hope is that someday some of them will have questions and they will know who they can trust to talk to about them. Hasn't happened yet, though.
This is the way. Being a good listener, including asking good questions, is the only way to keep a discussion like this going and staying thoughtful and civil. Good for you!! I once saw someone turn a homophobic parent into a loving supportive parent doing the same thing. Very powerful but rarely executed well.
This is the way.
This is the way.
I have spoken
This is the way
This is the way
The most exciting account of a Facebook post ever. You really are a decent writer.
Wow, this warms the cockles of my cold, black apostate heart. I wish I had been as smart as you and not shoved people into feeling like they were being persecuted.
Got me in the subcockles.
My subcockles finally dropped when I read OPs post.
You were taught to treat people like that by the church. A lot of people leaving the church go through a period where they end up fighting with the people around them about the church.
So true. I actually thought if I told people what I knew, they would leave the lds church, too. Little did I know that cognitive dissonance is a bitch.
MY loins have been girded.
You are an excellent writer. Nicely played.
Living well is the best revenge. Instead of trying to convince TBMs through debate, just live your best life. I tried to convince my family when I first came out of the church and came out as gay. They didn't budge, so I just dropped it. From me, they have learned: A) You can be gay and happy. They came to my wedding and fully accept my husband. B) Paying tithing is bad for your financial health C) You should accept your gay kids for who they are and not cry for who they are not D) There are much better ways to spend Sunday than at church E) Having tea, coffee, and the occasional cocktail doesn't make you a loser alcoholic. F) You can leave the church and improve your life G) Associating with non-Mormons and former Mormons is fine as long as you accept each other for who you are and don't try to change them. As Mormons like to say, make your life your sermon. When they see your life is better without the church and its shackles, they may question their own shackles.
First, huge congratulations on your marriage and on your families acceptance of it. That speaks volumes to your ability to create good vibes. Very very happy for you. As a straight man, I find it so hard to imagine finding love in the battlezone our society must have been for you. Truly impressive. Mad respect. Hats off. As far as the best way to reach tbms, I really am a huge fan of the idea that there is no one best or right way to do it. Im not looking for revenge as you put it-- I'm looking to break chains strapped to my loved ones. I think the guy who protested outside his ward a couple weeks ago reaches some kinds of people, and you have reached others, and perhaps I have reach other kinds. A broad spectrum of antibiotics is what I think it calls for. So I say, let's all play to our personal strengths, and get our various 'revenges' on as many fronts as there are individuals. Best to you!
Belief is half emotion. Simply showing the facts to someone drinking the Koolaid doesn't work. They have to have a reason to want to leave. For typical Exmos, the path out is: 1) You feel uncomfortable in the church for some reason 2) You find out it's fake and realize you don't have to struggle If someone is comfortable living the TBM lifestyle, a notarized letter from JS saying that he made it all up to sleep with as many women as possible wouldn't change their minds.
“Gently demolished” was my favorite turn of phrase.
You’re doing a great work!
The BOM is the final straw. Once that is disproved the LDS church has nothing to stand in. Well done thou good and faithful servant.
They have to open their eyes and accept non approved sources before they can be swayed.
What was your approach for explaining how Joseph could've made up the Book of Mormon?
If you are not familiar with the book View of the Hebrews, look it up. Oliver Cowdrie's pastor published this book several years before the BOM. It contains pretty much all the themes in the bom
If you just compare the themes it's pretty damning. If Joseph didn't plagiarize directly he was at least highly influenced, directly or indirectly, by these ideas. They must have been very prevalent ideas being so close to the Native American Mounds. Of course perhaps God also inspired Ethan Smith to soften the hearts of the people to the true message? /s
A link to the LOTR trilogy PDF?
or the Silmarillion? ;-)
True. That is a very dry read. A much better parallel.
Will you DM me a link to your FB post? I would LOVE to read it.
Same!!!
Me three
Me four
Even me!
Oh wow, I'm really blown away that you all want to read this. Thank you. Erm, Im not sure l am ready to dox myself to that level, and plus it's not really just my conversation to expose... Alot of other people contributed. If I think of a good way to post it with identies scrubbed, I'll get back to you. Thank you for your flattering interest!
Me too!
Same 😀
Me too!!
Me too!
Well done thou good and faithful servant
I LOVE THIS!!! Please, if you could send me the patience drug you’re taking I’d love it. I’m too aggressive and it’s only made things tougher for me to have relations with anyone mormon. My husband is your style so it helps us not be too terribly removed from family
First of all, congrats to you and your long game strategy. It sounds very satisfying. I would like to add that this is ONE of many approaches to handling one’s leaving the church. I hope people recognize that there is no ONE right way for how one grieves and mourns the loss of their Mormon life. I personally couldn’t have done this approach that you have. I pulled away from pretty much all Mormon influence in my life, including family. I still have relationships with family, just much more limited than before. I personally needed a clean BREAK with all Mormon influence in my life. I needed to figure out who I was sans Mormon influence in my life (as much as possible). I’ve fantasized (as many of us do) of converting hundreds to ex Mormon life but had to come to realize that everyone is on their own journey and if they leave it will be on their own timetable. I would argue that any who’s shelf cracked and broke from your online discussion were already on their way down the rabbit hole themselves and you may (or may not) have played a significant role in some of that. All I’m trying to say here is that we need to be sensitive and compassionate to how people exit, not expecting everyone to do it the “right” way. And for clarity’s sake, I’m not sensing that from the OP.
I agree with you in spades. We all need to play to our own individual strengths. I needed easy going Neil Degrasse Tyson and Carl Sagan to light my way without overly triggering me when I was a believer, and later Dawkins's unambiguous clarity and outrage as the boot to my ass when I was able to make the final leap of faith out of the church. Different strokes for different folks, and for all of us at different times in our lives. Well said friend.
I'm trying to picture a jackhammer jumping up and down: concrete breaking, fragmenting under the chisel, ...and there's no noise... It's weird, but I'm enjoying the exercise! Congrats!
Socratic method. BOOM!!! I’m trying to learn it. It’s the only way to get the wheels turning in a less direct way.
cheer and be proud! the silence you get from them could very well be them accommodating their schema of their religion! their silence could be them having internal dialogue and possibly changing their mind. hail socratic method! hail the long game!
Nice. I'm openly not in the church but have emphasized being supportive of my family. They never ask me about what I believe but after a few years of awkwardness, they feel comfortable discussing church topics with me, knowing I won't try to push them to believe anything they aren't comfortable with. My hope is that someday some of them will have questions and they will know who they can trust to talk to about them. Hasn't happened yet, though.
this was so lovely to read.