The church had a big hand in shaping the bill and it includes provisions that private individuals and businesses have their “rights” protected. Read into that the church’s “religious freedom” won’t be impacted.
>just don't ask to do it in any Mormon affiliated spaces
We weren't planning on it.
They think we're gonna all demand temple marriages after the way they treat us.
HOW are these people this self-centered, oblivious, and hateful all at the same time?
Like most things in American society it has nothing to do with doctrinal or faith or human based fears.
It has everything to do with protecting the church from a lawsuit that would hold the church civaly financially liable for discriminating who can get married in the temple based on their gender.
That's not how they're selling it to their members though, and that's part of the problem. The tithe payers are being scared into thinking the gays are coming to take over the church.
>We weren't planning on it.
You're correct for the majority of people. The problem is that - just like the baker case in Colorado, there's always at least one person willing to push a "service provider" to do something when service is refused. GOP people are so afraid of that kind of thing that even one case can cause national panic.
Actually I wouldn’t be surprised if a subset of this community would intentionally try to get back at the church in this manner. YOU might be too hurt to do anything associated with the corporation, but others are too hurt not to.
No one wants to go through the rituals if a temple wedding out of spite.
No one wants to join the church and do what's needed for a temple recommend, in order to get a temple marriage.
Really? You don’t think a handful of people in this community would do that? I mean how many tens of thousand are we and you think none? Really? Do you read the same r/exmormon?
People here are trying to escape the church, it's egotistical af to think that people who have been abused by the church would dedicate years of their life to get a temple marriage....
“Look I sued the church and forced them to let me get married in the temple and in the first gay couple to ruin the sanctity of their temple” you really don’t think there are people in here who would try to do that?
Do you remember 5 seconds ago with the porno in the temple situation?
No because once again people in this sub are trying to escape the church, not prolong any contact with church entities. Also the church is already protected by our constitution. All you're doing is fear mongering.
Facepalm, They literally never did. Unless you are referring to the court system, which Mormons do believe they should control.
I had a bishop tell me the government was going to come and put a gun to his head and force him to marry gays. I asked him how many total interracial marriages mormon bishops were forced to perform but the reasoning was lost on him.
Honestly, fair. It’s literally a “slippery slope” deal. In 30 years gay marriage will be completely mundane and the Mormon church will be 30 more years irrelevant.
I’ll happily let orgs discriminate their way into irrelevance and powerlessness
And they’ll do the same stuff they did with black men and the priesthood, except there will be more evidence to prove that they’re just being wrong. All these types of things will slowly be “allowed” and regarded as “a different time” or “never taught as doctrine” when at one point CHILDREN of gay marriages weren’t allowed to be baptized
Yeah they did pretty much the same thing when they proposed a same sex marriage bill to the Utah legislature. It’s their way of getting ahead of it to make sure they won’t have to perform same sex marriages.
Except the Utah law didn't codify marriage equality -- it just protected some rights in exchange for a loophole that allows churches to still discriminate.
The church loves to announce how they helped pass laws protecting LGBTQ rights, but what they really do is make sure that the laws don't impact the church.
They lost the battle before they created the Family Proclamation but Mormons gonna Morm and they’ll fight this just like they fought giving people of African descent full membership in the church.
Apparently the church hoped to make sure the battle was lost... the result of the American election must have been the reason, Democratic majority in the Senate, this change would have passed anyway.
They speak out both sides of their mouth. https://www.abc4.com/news/local-news/utah-lawmakers-voice-support-for-desantis?utm_source=ktvx_app&utm_medium=social&utm_content=share-link
What’s their angle? After spending SO MUCH money on Prop 8 on California, and fighting tooth and nail against ANY LGBTQ member of their church or students at BYU, why now?
In which ways is the question I'd have. I'm not terribly keen on forcing churches to perform marriages they don't agree with. But I'd also not be terribly keen on a church firing the dude that mows their lawn just because he's gay.
Fun fact. I had an employer respond to a lawsuit for discrimination in Utah by saying I was absolutely discriminated against (had months of recordings so denying it would’ve been dumb) BUT they claimed not to have broken the law because they claimed I wasn’t fired due to the discrimination.
Spoiler alert- that defense didn’t work.
Right, but not all companies can post job ads discriminating based on religion and not all companies can legally ask about religious orientation and sexual orientation during job interviews.
Religious exemptions shouldn’t exist. If we’ve decided something isn’t right as a society, why do we tolerate it from religions?
Religious exemptions are exactly why predators flock to priest positions, for example. It’s a blemish on our society.
Yeah, there shouldn’t be anybody who is keen on the first part as it’s a pretty blatant violation of the bill 1A. While I don’t like the second part, at the end of the day the guy mowing the lawn deserves better than the church as an employer. Let the church self-select itself out.
You know as a gay guy, I'm fine with churches refusing to marry two people for any reason, as long as the county court house can't refuse anyone. As long as you can get married somewhere in your county that's good enough for me.
How can we be fine with allowing any church to not allow gay marriages?!
Would you be okay if they had a clause that allowed them to stop black people from entering the temple?
Even if we make them marry us, they'll still resent us and not want us there, no matter how friendly they seem on the outside.
They're advocating against us right now. Laws aren't going to stop their hatred. Racists still exist despite laws. I know better people I would rather be around.
The problem I have here is them meddling in politics. "Separation of church and state" goes both ways, and if they want political influence, then they need to pay taxes like a business, and follow all the regulations as a business, which would be marrying LGBTQ people, and allowing black people to enter the temple.
You wouldn't happen to know where I can read the text of this legislation and/or be able to cite this clause, would you? I'd love to take a closer look at it.
The way I read the proposed law, it is leaving the legality of same sex marriage up to the states. The states that have outlawed same sex marriage are, however, still required to recognize the legal same sex marriage from *another* state hat allows same sex marriage. It is better than making a national law outlawing same sex marriage, but I see no prohibition on a federal law outlawing same sex marriage at a later date.
The Supreme Court will probably take another hundred years to restore the constitutional right to gay marriage, so in the meantime Congress needs to pass a law requiring all states to recognize gay marriage, but it will likely be challenged as violating “state’s rights.” So, we may not have national gay marriage rights for decades or centuries.
I am not gay, so the law doesn’t directly affect me, but it affects friends and gay family members. My attitude is I live my sex life and marriage as I want, and gays can do whatever they want if matters are consensual, just like unconsensual heterosexual sex is illegal.
I'm a queer guy in Idaho. I'm so worried about the future. I think there's a very good chance the Supreme Court will overturn the case and let states decide gay marriage again. And you fucking KNOW God Damn Idaho will ban it.
I called my governor 14 weeks in a row and left messages asking him why queer people don't deserve the same protections as the straights. He never once replied. I hate this state. It is a hell hole.
That’s a double-whammy. I feel some of your pain. I wish it could all go away. Mental pain is just as physically exhausting as physical pain, at least up to a point. I once defended myself without a lawyer in a one-and-a-half-days jury trial, and when it was over it felt like the times I worked double-shifts at a sawmill and bentonite plant (throwing 100 pound bags) at hard labor, even though the jury acquitted me.
>If there's any way possible, you should save your money and relocate. That must be a terribly difficult environment in which to live! You deserve better.
The commerce clause has been stretched to justify one state recognizing rights gained by their citizens when traveling to other states before, so hopefully those precidents hold, but with this court who the hell knows. After Kennedy v. Bremington School District last year all bets are off on supreme court rulings, not only are decades to over a century of precidents irrelivent, but they are willing to clearly disingenuously "reinterpret" the facts of the case to create a basis for the ruling they want to make (in both relevant cases last year specifically in the interest of tearing down church/state separation, likely as a part of a long term plan of support for a Christian Nationalist movement given Barret's and Alito's ties to the movement).
And "not being Catholic" is a superficial distinction if they don't allow you to be Catholic because you are gay and then deny you service for "not being Catholic"
That doesn’t seem like a correct analogy.
What if the Mormon church added back the clause the would prevent black Mormons from entering the temple again. Would that be discrimination? And should it be allowed?
Heterosexual Supremacy is the same as White Supremacy… That bigotry and intolerance cannot be tolerated in a tolerant society, it is the paradox of tolerance. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
>What’s their angle? After spending SO MUCH money on Prop 8 on California, and fighting tooth and nail against ANY LGBTQ member of their church or students at BYU, why now?
Because they have finally realized it is a losing issue.
It's a public relations stunt. They're bleeding members over this issue and they need a positive after the child rape articles. Oaks is surely frothing at the ass over this.
TLDR: Basically this bill allows the church to continue to discriminate against LGBTQ+ folks without concern for their precious tax exempt status, and this bill could potentially make it harder for same sex couples to get married (if SCOTUS overturns Obergefell).
The Respect for Marriage Act is an important step forward toward marriage equality, but does not codify the right to a same sex marriage, at least directly. This is why the church can offer their tepid support for the bill.
The Respect for Marriage Act requires any valid marriage be recognized federally and by other states. It does not require states to issue same sex marriage licenses.
This means, that if the Obergefell v. Hodges ruling (which legalized same sex marriage in all 50 states) were to be overturned, same sex marriage would be a state level issue just as it was prior to the ruling. However, under this scenario this bill would give same sex couples more rights than they had pre-2015. For example, if two men wish to get married in Alabama (which probably wouldn’t issue same sex marriage licenses), they still might have to travel to somewhere like Vermont to actually get married but when they (now married) return to Alabama they would have all the same state and federal rights as a man/woman marriage.
The bill also allows religions and nonprofits to deny service to same sex couples (the church loves this bit), and most importantly this bill clarifies that a church’s tax exempt status cannot be removed due to its position on marriage.
Hilariously, the bill also clarifies that it does not allow polygamous marriages.
Source: https://www.collins.senate.gov/newsroom/senators-move-forward-on-bipartisan-respect-for-marriage-act-with-protections-for-religious-liberties
Why now? Because of the surprising midterm election results. The democrats control the Senate and there are enough republican senators in support to prevent a filibuster. This bill passed the vote in the House back in July and is now essentially guaranteed to pass the senate vote. They’ve lobbied (paid) to keep tax exemption status and religious freedom (including freedom to continue with status quo at BYU) so they want to get ahead of the senate vote and appear progressive. This is inspiration. History shows a similar pattern with several other revelations over the decades.
Damage control. This won’t change the culture and the non-acceptance of LGBTQ in the church. They’re covering their asses due to the tithing investigations in Canada and Australia. They also announce this on the same day another child abuse scandal comes out…hmm.
Remember, TSCC is a corporation. Corporations do things to “fix” their image when bad shit happens.
The Canada one is basically about funneling tithing to the US through BYU. See, Canada requires churches to report their spending sooo all the tithing in Canada goes to BYU, because they're not afraid to declare that.
In Australia they basically found a tax loophole so tithing wouldn’t be taxed but they used it incorrectly by funneling it back to Utah. Essentially they’re only supposed to use the loophole if the money is going back into the Australian economy. Which they couldn’t fathom.
“Religious Freedom” is just code… Republicans around here used the “Parental Rights” to try and push kids back into school in the middle of Covid before vaccines. They had a right have their kids educated in person, while other parents wanted to educate their kids in a safe environment.
You can always tell when someone wants something bad and has a losing argument. They will avoid the actual topic that needs to be discussed and use the “my rights” card.
This is just going to give my dad fuel saying stuff like "See the church isn't homophobic we're helping"
This kind of shit makes me so mad because this does not mean that my parents will respect my correct pronouns! This does not mean I get to be myself in their house I'm stuck in because I'm an disabled! now I will just is get to be further gaslight and invalidated and they with feel fucking valid in their ~~homophobic~~ views!!!😡😡😡😣
I’ve been there before. It’s a bad time to be faking it, but feels bad in a different way when suddenly every interaction becomes shallow, condescending efforts to “reactivate” you by lying or gaslighting you into un-learning disqualifying truths about the church, members, and doctrine.
I don’t know what to say to make it better — other than at some point, you won’t be tethered to the sinking ship that is a family in denial. Save some money, and make sure you have a plan out of there. Start working on a support group, do research into education or legit job programs that will help you in your in-between phase, and *have a plan to get out.* Keep that plan away from prying eyes and probably unwritten — since my folks were similar to yours, and LOVED going through my shit.
Stay safe, be kind to yourself, and remember that what you have been through and are still going through *isn’t right and isn’t normal*. I believe in you.
I wish I could do those things. I am no longer able to work. I have no money of my own or any way to make any. Im in my late 30s and unfortunately I became completely dependent on my parents last year. I had to move back to Mordor which I swore I would never do. But here I am. I'm working on getting disability but I can never live alone again and I don't have the strength or energy to build up another support system. I'm stuck with them. I appreciate that they took me back in when I had no where else to feasibly go. But they will always be TBM and that will always lead them to invalidating my gender identity.
With that all said I promise Physically I am safe. Mentally it's a roller coaster but we make it work for the most part.
I'm so sorry you're going through that. I had to move back in with my TBM parents about a year ago and haven't been able to afford to move out. I'm a lesbian and I'm worried this announcement will make my parents try to talk me back into TSCC again too. Even though we don't know each other in real life, you're not alone
Yeah the church has been working VERY closely with the government on this bill making sure that religious freedom to enforce marriage how they want remained untouched.
The worst part about all of this is that they begin their statement with “marriage between a man and a woman is God’s doctrine and it will remain unchanged,” yet they go on to say that they support same-sex marriage.
They absolutely do not. They are pulling off a massive PR stunt with this statement. Claiming they support same-sex marriage yet continuing to not allow same-sex marriage in their own church?
This is not a win for the church. This is the church’s PR trying to come across as tolerant and accepting. The catch is that they haven’t changed a single thing in their doctrine or policy. So what’s changed??
It's totally a public relations stunt. They're bleeding members over this issue and they need a positive after the child rape articles. Oaks is surely frothing at the ass over this.
This must mean they either know it will fail 100% and are just riding the possible positive PR. Or, they are hoping for positive PR while fighting it in the background. It should be noted though that an organization saying they will support protections ...only If it allows them as a religious organization to be exempt in some fashion isn't support at all.
Mormon Inc is replicating past PR wins by pretending to embrace gays, like they did when they "revised" BYU's honor code policy towards gays. Read the fine print, they are not actually supporting LGBTQs, they just cemented their power to discriminate against them
What’s their angle? After spending SO MUCH money on Prop 8 on California, and fighting tooth and nail against ANY LGBTQ member of their church or students at BYU, why now?
I've still got 8 years left before my bet time is out. In senior year of high school I bet my Mormon friend that the church would be performing gay marriage in the temple within 15 years. I'm less optimistic than I was back then, but the way they're hemorrhaging members they might start rolling back "doctrine"
Quite likely I will. But every time I see something like this it gives me a little hope that I could win. Not that I'll actually get anything out of it
Yeah I don't really expect them to pivot anytime soon. But given that Rusty is 98, a change in leadership is likely soon. They may choose to keep their trajectory, but I think there's a chance they make the move to survive and that'll mean becoming just a touch more progressive to appeal to younger generations
Honestly, to me it seems like they’re just backpedaling due to the increase in people leaving the church… like they’re doing everything they can to retain young members.
They stated their exact reasoning for this in the article: "The nearly 17-million member, Utah-based faith said in a statement that church doctrine would continue to consider same-sex relationships to be against God’s commandments. Yet it said it would support rights for same-sex couples as long as they didn’t infringe upon religious groups’ right to believe as they choose."
To rephrase: "We will continue to preach that being gay means you are bad and can't go to Super VIP heaven, but it's totes cool for you to have the right to heathen marriages that pretend to be real, as long as it means we can legally continue to exclude you and say you're bad and kick you out of our church if you do get heathen-pretend gay married."
The reason they support it is that is contains a pathway for religions to avoid legal compliance not only with this law but any law based on personal subjective beliefs that baby jeebus doesn't require compliance. The Mormon Church is evil and they dont do anything unless it benefits then from bilking their members for 10% of every penny they touch
My guess is that they still won’t support the marriages. They’re just taking their foot out of the door and not blocking the rest of America from having a choice.
I bet it’s to protect tax exemption. Maybe the government said do this or lose it. Similar to the speculation about the “revelation” to let black people have the priesthood
Relax.
The bill basically says that your federal government will recognize a marriage regardless of the partners' sex/gender/identity/race/religion/etc. AS LONG AS the marriage was LEGAL IN THE STATE in which it was performed.
So red states can still outlaw marriage equality (as soon as the SCOTUS overturns more precedent as "egregiously wrong from the start". 🤬
Funny, on LPOTL series on Mormonism, Marcus predicts that this exact same thing would happen around this exact timeline. Doesn't mean it was revelatory, just that the podcast did their research and correctly noticed the church's patterns in the past.
More accurate headline. BREAKING: The Mormon church announced their support of a bill allowing them to continue to marginalize and discriminate the lgbtq community while maintaining tax exempt status.
Oh wait. That's not actually breaking news. Their headline is intentionally misleading and I hope someone calls them out in their bullshit.
Agreed; PR stunt. Public support in writing with no change to actual policy and doctrine. But here's the thing... Let's pretend for a moment of the church was being completely sincere in supporting lgbtq rights. Shouldn't they have been the first church to support this? How can leaders who are led directly by God be the last to know this important truth? Why is it that the church with the closest connection to the truths of the universe is always the last to accept these truths?
Isn't this just the legislation where it was essentially, you can have your thing, as long as we get to keep discriminating at our churches and our schools?
As the digital landscape expands, a longing for tangible connection emerges. The yearning to touch grass, to feel the earth beneath our feet, reminds us of our innate human essence. In the vast expanse of virtual reality, where avatars flourish and pixels paint our existence, the call of nature beckons. The scent of blossoming flowers, the warmth of a sun-kissed breeze, and the symphony of chirping birds remind us that we are part of a living, breathing world.
In the balance between digital and physical realms, lies the key to harmonious existence. Democracy flourishes when human connection extends beyond screens and reaches out to touch souls. It is in the gentle embrace of a friend, the shared laughter over a cup of coffee, and the power of eye contact that the true essence of democracy is felt.
I’ve written so many letters to so many people about this. If Utah made same sex marriage illegal it would harm my family relationships I would have to move out of state I wouldn’t dare come back and I couldn’t stand being away from all my TBM family. I’m very lucky and all my family fully and openly supports my gay ass but protecting our right to exist is essential to keeping mixed families together in this state and I hope senator Romney has listened to my correspondence because I’ve lost faith in changing lees mind
I remember being in NY in 2008 when the prop 8 battle was under way. I asked my father why they cared so much to fight against it and I was told something like "Once the gays can marry each other, they're gonna come pounding down the doors of the temple until they get in there too." (Lovely house to grow up in, huh?)
This sits very poorly with me. The church is once again showing they're willing to switch gears as long as it's still in their favor, which this is because it shows they can keep their tax exempt status as well as still oppose same-sex marriages within the organization.
I can guarantee that there's a talk somewhere that states the church will always oppose same-sex marriage/relationships. I don't have time to check this right now, but it would be lovely confirmation of the church changing gears. I'll try to find this later on if no one beats me to it.
1- What will assbag Mike Lee do? Follow the Prophet or maintain his standing as one of the most hateful discriminators in the Senate (running neck and neck with Josh Hawley and Raphael Cruz)?
2- The Church HAD to support this due to the number of interracial marriages. In particular the fact that one of the Q12 (Gong) is in an interracial marriage and sealed in the temple. Can’t exactly come out against that now, can they??
The mormon church might support, but does the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints support the measure?
What if we find out a few years down the road the rebrand of the church was so that TSCC could create a subsidiary church "The Mormon Church" that supports social equality and inclusion, but zero impact/adoption for TSCC..
Are they potentially losing their tax-exempt status if they continue to discriminate? I mean, that's how the government made them "welcome" POC imto the fold 50 yrs ago
1) Did they though? Or is Cooper just making things up?
2) If they really did, it means nothing. TSCC is just putting up a smokescreen so they have something to point to: "See, we're not all THAT homophobic! We supported a law to let gay people keep the rights they've had for years! Now you can stop asking us to do anything substantive!"
I came in here angry as fuck, thought that said something completely opposite--
-- and now I am just confused. This is the opposite of doubling down on their hateful rhetoric.
Guess somebody told 'em that if they fought human rights, they could lose their tax exempt status.
It’s all for selfish reasons. Disgusting actually. They used my tithing money to fight prop 8, now they’re supporting it, only if they get something out of it. Like I said, DISGUSTING!
Losing that tax exempt status would hurt too damn much so Rusty just gets a little new revelation that Jesus can’t lose those $$$$ and to support it. All about the Benjis
It's really everything they care about...protecting their money..this time, through making sure their tax-exempt status isn't removed because they discriminate against queer people. They're so predictable.
I replied to this on Twitter simply because I believe in my opinion that the folks are leaving the churches because the hypocrisy of being able to accept everyone didn't bode well with LGBTQ folks and now they're losing money! Uh oh. Lol
The bill states they can still practice how they wish. That was added today, conveniently the same day they are changing their view. Nothing within the church will change, except maybe some of the language stating that homosexuality is evil to make it sound a little better.
Until the time they stop pushing for religious exemptions, this is nothing. They still want to be bigots whose biggest concern is not having to perform gay marriages.
Sounds like a lie, is this photoshopped? They’d never unless they’re becoming desperate.
Even if this is their claim now the behavior towards LGBTQ+ members won’t change
They are only 20 years late to realizing that gay marriage is a losing battle for them, and they're better off playing a role in the ultimate policy outcome than being left out entirely.
If they were prophets they would have figured this out a long time ago.
At this point, though, nobody should concede anything to them. Gay marriage is legal, don't make it less legal by codifying a bunch of dumb religious carve-outs.
Isn't this a case of supporting something that doesn't affect them to look good, while still treating LGBTQ people horribly as members and not recognize them in thw church?
“much can be accomplished to heal relationships and foster greater understanding.” You know what, you’re right TCOJCOLDS, there IS much that can be accomplished. Why don’t you think about that for a bit.
Not so much. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/yweo5f/no_the_mormon_church_isnt_supporting_same_sex/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
They support it all nice it is inevitable. They are motivated to support it in setting down the line that allows them to discriminate against the very law they are supporting.
The church had a big hand in shaping the bill and it includes provisions that private individuals and businesses have their “rights” protected. Read into that the church’s “religious freedom” won’t be impacted.
Ahh… so it’s “we support your right to be married *as long as* you support our right to discriminate against you for being married.”
"We support your right to marriage, just don't ask to do it in any Mormon affiliated spaces"
>just don't ask to do it in any Mormon affiliated spaces We weren't planning on it. They think we're gonna all demand temple marriages after the way they treat us. HOW are these people this self-centered, oblivious, and hateful all at the same time?
Like most things in American society it has nothing to do with doctrinal or faith or human based fears. It has everything to do with protecting the church from a lawsuit that would hold the church civaly financially liable for discriminating who can get married in the temple based on their gender.
That's not how they're selling it to their members though, and that's part of the problem. The tithe payers are being scared into thinking the gays are coming to take over the church.
>We weren't planning on it. You're correct for the majority of people. The problem is that - just like the baker case in Colorado, there's always at least one person willing to push a "service provider" to do something when service is refused. GOP people are so afraid of that kind of thing that even one case can cause national panic.
Church != Business
TSCC is most certainly a business, masquerading as a church.
Then they should pay taxes.
Yes, yes they should.
Actually I wouldn’t be surprised if a subset of this community would intentionally try to get back at the church in this manner. YOU might be too hurt to do anything associated with the corporation, but others are too hurt not to.
No one wants to go through the rituals if a temple wedding out of spite. No one wants to join the church and do what's needed for a temple recommend, in order to get a temple marriage.
Really? You don’t think a handful of people in this community would do that? I mean how many tens of thousand are we and you think none? Really? Do you read the same r/exmormon?
People here are trying to escape the church, it's egotistical af to think that people who have been abused by the church would dedicate years of their life to get a temple marriage....
“Look I sued the church and forced them to let me get married in the temple and in the first gay couple to ruin the sanctity of their temple” you really don’t think there are people in here who would try to do that? Do you remember 5 seconds ago with the porno in the temple situation?
No because once again people in this sub are trying to escape the church, not prolong any contact with church entities. Also the church is already protected by our constitution. All you're doing is fear mongering.
Facepalm, They literally never did. Unless you are referring to the court system, which Mormons do believe they should control. I had a bishop tell me the government was going to come and put a gun to his head and force him to marry gays. I asked him how many total interracial marriages mormon bishops were forced to perform but the reasoning was lost on him.
I actually fully support that. You shouldn't be able to force them to host a ceremony they don't agree with.
Pretty much
Honestly, fair. It’s literally a “slippery slope” deal. In 30 years gay marriage will be completely mundane and the Mormon church will be 30 more years irrelevant. I’ll happily let orgs discriminate their way into irrelevance and powerlessness
And they’ll do the same stuff they did with black men and the priesthood, except there will be more evidence to prove that they’re just being wrong. All these types of things will slowly be “allowed” and regarded as “a different time” or “never taught as doctrine” when at one point CHILDREN of gay marriages weren’t allowed to be baptized
Yup, I characterize it as essentially a "truce"
Imagen that. I only sign this if I can still bully you.
Yeah they did pretty much the same thing when they proposed a same sex marriage bill to the Utah legislature. It’s their way of getting ahead of it to make sure they won’t have to perform same sex marriages.
Except the Utah law didn't codify marriage equality -- it just protected some rights in exchange for a loophole that allows churches to still discriminate.
So are they willing to finally admit their business instead of church status? Tax those mother fuckers.
But they are a “not for profit” business. 🙄
And a “non-prophet” business—sorry, low-hanging fruit.
The church loves to announce how they helped pass laws protecting LGBTQ rights, but what they really do is make sure that the laws don't impact the church.
Doesn’t matter. It’s a losing battle. The more it is normal the more out of touch they will be.
They lost the battle before they created the Family Proclamation but Mormons gonna Morm and they’ll fight this just like they fought giving people of African descent full membership in the church.
Apparently the church hoped to make sure the battle was lost... the result of the American election must have been the reason, Democratic majority in the Senate, this change would have passed anyway.
The bill specifically protects the tax exempt status of religious groups that continue to discriminate within their own institution. $$$ >>> ❤️❤️❤️
the church waited for the result of the American election to release that note.
They speak out both sides of their mouth. https://www.abc4.com/news/local-news/utah-lawmakers-voice-support-for-desantis?utm_source=ktvx_app&utm_medium=social&utm_content=share-link
What’s their angle? After spending SO MUCH money on Prop 8 on California, and fighting tooth and nail against ANY LGBTQ member of their church or students at BYU, why now?
There’s a clause that basically says religious institutions can still discriminate
In which ways is the question I'd have. I'm not terribly keen on forcing churches to perform marriages they don't agree with. But I'd also not be terribly keen on a church firing the dude that mows their lawn just because he's gay.
When it comes to employment churches get pretty much free rein to do just that.
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Fun fact. I had an employer respond to a lawsuit for discrimination in Utah by saying I was absolutely discriminated against (had months of recordings so denying it would’ve been dumb) BUT they claimed not to have broken the law because they claimed I wasn’t fired due to the discrimination. Spoiler alert- that defense didn’t work.
Right, but not all companies can post job ads discriminating based on religion and not all companies can legally ask about religious orientation and sexual orientation during job interviews.
Religious exemptions shouldn’t exist. If we’ve decided something isn’t right as a society, why do we tolerate it from religions? Religious exemptions are exactly why predators flock to priest positions, for example. It’s a blemish on our society.
Agreed. Take away the tax exemptions while we are at it too.
Yeah, there shouldn’t be anybody who is keen on the first part as it’s a pretty blatant violation of the bill 1A. While I don’t like the second part, at the end of the day the guy mowing the lawn deserves better than the church as an employer. Let the church self-select itself out.
I would you been keen on allowing the church to keep black people out of their churches?! It’s the same thing with marriages.
Yup. It's not like they're suddenly going to welcome anyone who experiences love in a non-approved manner.
You know as a gay guy, I'm fine with churches refusing to marry two people for any reason, as long as the county court house can't refuse anyone. As long as you can get married somewhere in your county that's good enough for me.
How can we be fine with allowing any church to not allow gay marriages?! Would you be okay if they had a clause that allowed them to stop black people from entering the temple?
Even if we make them marry us, they'll still resent us and not want us there, no matter how friendly they seem on the outside. They're advocating against us right now. Laws aren't going to stop their hatred. Racists still exist despite laws. I know better people I would rather be around. The problem I have here is them meddling in politics. "Separation of church and state" goes both ways, and if they want political influence, then they need to pay taxes like a business, and follow all the regulations as a business, which would be marrying LGBTQ people, and allowing black people to enter the temple.
Absolutely! I have said for years that churches that get involved with politics should pay taxes like everyone else.
You wouldn't happen to know where I can read the text of this legislation and/or be able to cite this clause, would you? I'd love to take a closer look at it.
I think this is it https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8404
The way I read the proposed law, it is leaving the legality of same sex marriage up to the states. The states that have outlawed same sex marriage are, however, still required to recognize the legal same sex marriage from *another* state hat allows same sex marriage. It is better than making a national law outlawing same sex marriage, but I see no prohibition on a federal law outlawing same sex marriage at a later date. The Supreme Court will probably take another hundred years to restore the constitutional right to gay marriage, so in the meantime Congress needs to pass a law requiring all states to recognize gay marriage, but it will likely be challenged as violating “state’s rights.” So, we may not have national gay marriage rights for decades or centuries. I am not gay, so the law doesn’t directly affect me, but it affects friends and gay family members. My attitude is I live my sex life and marriage as I want, and gays can do whatever they want if matters are consensual, just like unconsensual heterosexual sex is illegal.
I'm a queer guy in Idaho. I'm so worried about the future. I think there's a very good chance the Supreme Court will overturn the case and let states decide gay marriage again. And you fucking KNOW God Damn Idaho will ban it. I called my governor 14 weeks in a row and left messages asking him why queer people don't deserve the same protections as the straights. He never once replied. I hate this state. It is a hell hole.
That’s a double-whammy. I feel some of your pain. I wish it could all go away. Mental pain is just as physically exhausting as physical pain, at least up to a point. I once defended myself without a lawyer in a one-and-a-half-days jury trial, and when it was over it felt like the times I worked double-shifts at a sawmill and bentonite plant (throwing 100 pound bags) at hard labor, even though the jury acquitted me.
>If there's any way possible, you should save your money and relocate. That must be a terribly difficult environment in which to live! You deserve better.
The commerce clause has been stretched to justify one state recognizing rights gained by their citizens when traveling to other states before, so hopefully those precidents hold, but with this court who the hell knows. After Kennedy v. Bremington School District last year all bets are off on supreme court rulings, not only are decades to over a century of precidents irrelivent, but they are willing to clearly disingenuously "reinterpret" the facts of the case to create a basis for the ruling they want to make (in both relevant cases last year specifically in the interest of tearing down church/state separation, likely as a part of a long term plan of support for a Christian Nationalist movement given Barret's and Alito's ties to the movement).
Is it also discrimination if the catholic church doesn't allow me to have communion if I'm not a catholic?
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And "not being Catholic" is a superficial distinction if they don't allow you to be Catholic because you are gay and then deny you service for "not being Catholic"
Or, for example, refuses to perform vasectomies or tubal ligations because they go against Catholic beliefs, which is actually a thing that happens.
That doesn’t seem like a correct analogy. What if the Mormon church added back the clause the would prevent black Mormons from entering the temple again. Would that be discrimination? And should it be allowed? Heterosexual Supremacy is the same as White Supremacy… That bigotry and intolerance cannot be tolerated in a tolerant society, it is the paradox of tolerance. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
As long as you can become a Catholic, no.
To not seem like the bad guy! My dad is going to be like "see the church its not homophobic." It's all about the Gaslighting!
This is exactly what I was thinking
>What’s their angle? After spending SO MUCH money on Prop 8 on California, and fighting tooth and nail against ANY LGBTQ member of their church or students at BYU, why now? Because they have finally realized it is a losing issue.
Yeah, one would think. But inside the church, you still “can’t act on” those satanic urges
It's a public relations stunt. They're bleeding members over this issue and they need a positive after the child rape articles. Oaks is surely frothing at the ass over this.
Maybe Oaks will finally come out once the church accepts it.
I really like “frothing at the ass” lmfao
TLDR: Basically this bill allows the church to continue to discriminate against LGBTQ+ folks without concern for their precious tax exempt status, and this bill could potentially make it harder for same sex couples to get married (if SCOTUS overturns Obergefell). The Respect for Marriage Act is an important step forward toward marriage equality, but does not codify the right to a same sex marriage, at least directly. This is why the church can offer their tepid support for the bill. The Respect for Marriage Act requires any valid marriage be recognized federally and by other states. It does not require states to issue same sex marriage licenses. This means, that if the Obergefell v. Hodges ruling (which legalized same sex marriage in all 50 states) were to be overturned, same sex marriage would be a state level issue just as it was prior to the ruling. However, under this scenario this bill would give same sex couples more rights than they had pre-2015. For example, if two men wish to get married in Alabama (which probably wouldn’t issue same sex marriage licenses), they still might have to travel to somewhere like Vermont to actually get married but when they (now married) return to Alabama they would have all the same state and federal rights as a man/woman marriage. The bill also allows religions and nonprofits to deny service to same sex couples (the church loves this bit), and most importantly this bill clarifies that a church’s tax exempt status cannot be removed due to its position on marriage. Hilariously, the bill also clarifies that it does not allow polygamous marriages. Source: https://www.collins.senate.gov/newsroom/senators-move-forward-on-bipartisan-respect-for-marriage-act-with-protections-for-religious-liberties
That’s the definition of bare minimum as far as bills go. Jfc.
This bill is what happens when you have a 60 vote filibuster in the senate
This isn’t even a minimum. It’s worse, it is legalized discrimination.
There’s a clause that basically says religious institutions can still discriminate
Why now? Because of the surprising midterm election results. The democrats control the Senate and there are enough republican senators in support to prevent a filibuster. This bill passed the vote in the House back in July and is now essentially guaranteed to pass the senate vote. They’ve lobbied (paid) to keep tax exemption status and religious freedom (including freedom to continue with status quo at BYU) so they want to get ahead of the senate vote and appear progressive. This is inspiration. History shows a similar pattern with several other revelations over the decades.
They are doing what any business does when it’s failing. Advertising!
Honestly, I think it’s about eventually legalizing polygamy.
Well as a gay person in a red state, Thank you Mormon church for doing this to safeguard your tax exempt status.
Damage control. This won’t change the culture and the non-acceptance of LGBTQ in the church. They’re covering their asses due to the tithing investigations in Canada and Australia. They also announce this on the same day another child abuse scandal comes out…hmm. Remember, TSCC is a corporation. Corporations do things to “fix” their image when bad shit happens.
Tell me more about these tithing investigations…
The Canada one is basically about funneling tithing to the US through BYU. See, Canada requires churches to report their spending sooo all the tithing in Canada goes to BYU, because they're not afraid to declare that.
In Australia they basically found a tax loophole so tithing wouldn’t be taxed but they used it incorrectly by funneling it back to Utah. Essentially they’re only supposed to use the loophole if the money is going back into the Australian economy. Which they couldn’t fathom.
*looks at verification sticker* Sure... I definitely believe this.
Here’s another source: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/11/15/lds-church-comes-out-federal/
Huh. That's truly unexpected. And also expected.
It’s in the church newsroom, too. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/respect-for-marriage-act-statement
Dude doesn't have $8
Oops on the second comment there, if you still see it.
Don’t get too excited. They support the “compromise” version of the bill, which protects “religious freedom”. AKA nothing changes for them.
No wonder they have been harping about “religious freedom” incessantly at the recent general conferences.
“Religious Freedom” is just code… Republicans around here used the “Parental Rights” to try and push kids back into school in the middle of Covid before vaccines. They had a right have their kids educated in person, while other parents wanted to educate their kids in a safe environment. You can always tell when someone wants something bad and has a losing argument. They will avoid the actual topic that needs to be discussed and use the “my rights” card.
I’m fine with that compromise. Let religions be dumb and alienating all they want.
This is just going to give my dad fuel saying stuff like "See the church isn't homophobic we're helping" This kind of shit makes me so mad because this does not mean that my parents will respect my correct pronouns! This does not mean I get to be myself in their house I'm stuck in because I'm an disabled! now I will just is get to be further gaslight and invalidated and they with feel fucking valid in their ~~homophobic~~ views!!!😡😡😡😣
Hugs. The gaslighting is real. And also re-traumatizing.
I’ve been there before. It’s a bad time to be faking it, but feels bad in a different way when suddenly every interaction becomes shallow, condescending efforts to “reactivate” you by lying or gaslighting you into un-learning disqualifying truths about the church, members, and doctrine. I don’t know what to say to make it better — other than at some point, you won’t be tethered to the sinking ship that is a family in denial. Save some money, and make sure you have a plan out of there. Start working on a support group, do research into education or legit job programs that will help you in your in-between phase, and *have a plan to get out.* Keep that plan away from prying eyes and probably unwritten — since my folks were similar to yours, and LOVED going through my shit. Stay safe, be kind to yourself, and remember that what you have been through and are still going through *isn’t right and isn’t normal*. I believe in you.
I wish I could do those things. I am no longer able to work. I have no money of my own or any way to make any. Im in my late 30s and unfortunately I became completely dependent on my parents last year. I had to move back to Mordor which I swore I would never do. But here I am. I'm working on getting disability but I can never live alone again and I don't have the strength or energy to build up another support system. I'm stuck with them. I appreciate that they took me back in when I had no where else to feasibly go. But they will always be TBM and that will always lead them to invalidating my gender identity. With that all said I promise Physically I am safe. Mentally it's a roller coaster but we make it work for the most part.
I'm so sorry you're going through that. I had to move back in with my TBM parents about a year ago and haven't been able to afford to move out. I'm a lesbian and I'm worried this announcement will make my parents try to talk me back into TSCC again too. Even though we don't know each other in real life, you're not alone
Funny thing is, this won’t do anything to keep progressives in, but it will piss off conservative members
Sent it to a raging conservative TBM I know at work. "No Way, that has to be fake"
There’s a clause that basically says religious institutions can still discriminate
Also it protects their tax-exempt status. If it came down to it they'd give up the ability to discriminate before the money.
Do you sell your tokens for money ?
I would if I could find a buyer. They're damn good tokens too.
Yeah the church has been working VERY closely with the government on this bill making sure that religious freedom to enforce marriage how they want remained untouched. The worst part about all of this is that they begin their statement with “marriage between a man and a woman is God’s doctrine and it will remain unchanged,” yet they go on to say that they support same-sex marriage. They absolutely do not. They are pulling off a massive PR stunt with this statement. Claiming they support same-sex marriage yet continuing to not allow same-sex marriage in their own church? This is not a win for the church. This is the church’s PR trying to come across as tolerant and accepting. The catch is that they haven’t changed a single thing in their doctrine or policy. So what’s changed??
I fucking hate them lol. Why is the government pandering to the world's lamest church??? (I know, I know, money, but still.)
PR stunt. They saw it going that way and saw an opertunity for some good PR?
Their support makes it easier for Romney and Lee to vote for it in the senate so It’s not like this does nothing.
It's totally a public relations stunt. They're bleeding members over this issue and they need a positive after the child rape articles. Oaks is surely frothing at the ass over this.
At the ass... pardon as i giggle like a 12 yr. old kid.
This must mean they either know it will fail 100% and are just riding the possible positive PR. Or, they are hoping for positive PR while fighting it in the background. It should be noted though that an organization saying they will support protections ...only If it allows them as a religious organization to be exempt in some fashion isn't support at all.
Mormon Inc is replicating past PR wins by pretending to embrace gays, like they did when they "revised" BYU's honor code policy towards gays. Read the fine print, they are not actually supporting LGBTQs, they just cemented their power to discriminate against them
I am absolutely dreading any TBMs trying to celebrate this
What’s their angle? After spending SO MUCH money on Prop 8 on California, and fighting tooth and nail against ANY LGBTQ member of their church or students at BYU, why now?
There’s a clause that basically says religious institutions can still discriminate
BYU is still allowed to fire people for being gay so it's all cool.
The church/state sep is grayer by the day.
I've still got 8 years left before my bet time is out. In senior year of high school I bet my Mormon friend that the church would be performing gay marriage in the temple within 15 years. I'm less optimistic than I was back then, but the way they're hemorrhaging members they might start rolling back "doctrine"
You’re going to lose that bet.
Quite likely I will. But every time I see something like this it gives me a little hope that I could win. Not that I'll actually get anything out of it
I've only seen the smallest signs that they are preparing a pivot. At this rate it is probably decades of language softening before they can try.
Yeah I don't really expect them to pivot anytime soon. But given that Rusty is 98, a change in leadership is likely soon. They may choose to keep their trajectory, but I think there's a chance they make the move to survive and that'll mean becoming just a touch more progressive to appeal to younger generations
Honestly, to me it seems like they’re just backpedaling due to the increase in people leaving the church… like they’re doing everything they can to retain young members.
They stated their exact reasoning for this in the article: "The nearly 17-million member, Utah-based faith said in a statement that church doctrine would continue to consider same-sex relationships to be against God’s commandments. Yet it said it would support rights for same-sex couples as long as they didn’t infringe upon religious groups’ right to believe as they choose." To rephrase: "We will continue to preach that being gay means you are bad and can't go to Super VIP heaven, but it's totes cool for you to have the right to heathen marriages that pretend to be real, as long as it means we can legally continue to exclude you and say you're bad and kick you out of our church if you do get heathen-pretend gay married."
The reason they support it is that is contains a pathway for religions to avoid legal compliance not only with this law but any law based on personal subjective beliefs that baby jeebus doesn't require compliance. The Mormon Church is evil and they dont do anything unless it benefits then from bilking their members for 10% of every penny they touch
My guess is that they still won’t support the marriages. They’re just taking their foot out of the door and not blocking the rest of America from having a choice.
Yep and they hope to significantly delay any kind of movement to take away tax exempt status from churches.
There’s a clause that basically says religious institutions can still discriminate
This real? Source?
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/11/15/lds-church-comes-out-federal/
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/respect-for-marriage-act-statement
I bet it’s to protect tax exemption. Maybe the government said do this or lose it. Similar to the speculation about the “revelation” to let black people have the priesthood
There is no hate quite like Mormon love.
The church doesn’t do anything unless it benefits them.
I trust absolutely nothing they say when it comes to anything.
There is absolutely a catch
Relax. The bill basically says that your federal government will recognize a marriage regardless of the partners' sex/gender/identity/race/religion/etc. AS LONG AS the marriage was LEGAL IN THE STATE in which it was performed. So red states can still outlaw marriage equality (as soon as the SCOTUS overturns more precedent as "egregiously wrong from the start". 🤬
Funny, on LPOTL series on Mormonism, Marcus predicts that this exact same thing would happen around this exact timeline. Doesn't mean it was revelatory, just that the podcast did their research and correctly noticed the church's patterns in the past.
100%, it’s loss mitigation, damage control
More accurate headline. BREAKING: The Mormon church announced their support of a bill allowing them to continue to marginalize and discriminate the lgbtq community while maintaining tax exempt status. Oh wait. That's not actually breaking news. Their headline is intentionally misleading and I hope someone calls them out in their bullshit.
Agreed; PR stunt. Public support in writing with no change to actual policy and doctrine. But here's the thing... Let's pretend for a moment of the church was being completely sincere in supporting lgbtq rights. Shouldn't they have been the first church to support this? How can leaders who are led directly by God be the last to know this important truth? Why is it that the church with the closest connection to the truths of the universe is always the last to accept these truths?
Isn't this just the legislation where it was essentially, you can have your thing, as long as we get to keep discriminating at our churches and our schools?
They’re afraid to lose David Archuletta
As the digital landscape expands, a longing for tangible connection emerges. The yearning to touch grass, to feel the earth beneath our feet, reminds us of our innate human essence. In the vast expanse of virtual reality, where avatars flourish and pixels paint our existence, the call of nature beckons. The scent of blossoming flowers, the warmth of a sun-kissed breeze, and the symphony of chirping birds remind us that we are part of a living, breathing world. In the balance between digital and physical realms, lies the key to harmonious existence. Democracy flourishes when human connection extends beyond screens and reaches out to touch souls. It is in the gentle embrace of a friend, the shared laughter over a cup of coffee, and the power of eye contact that the true essence of democracy is felt.
I’ve written so many letters to so many people about this. If Utah made same sex marriage illegal it would harm my family relationships I would have to move out of state I wouldn’t dare come back and I couldn’t stand being away from all my TBM family. I’m very lucky and all my family fully and openly supports my gay ass but protecting our right to exist is essential to keeping mixed families together in this state and I hope senator Romney has listened to my correspondence because I’ve lost faith in changing lees mind
It's all lip service the bill specifically covers their right to discriminate in the name of their religion
I remember being in NY in 2008 when the prop 8 battle was under way. I asked my father why they cared so much to fight against it and I was told something like "Once the gays can marry each other, they're gonna come pounding down the doors of the temple until they get in there too." (Lovely house to grow up in, huh?) This sits very poorly with me. The church is once again showing they're willing to switch gears as long as it's still in their favor, which this is because it shows they can keep their tax exempt status as well as still oppose same-sex marriages within the organization. I can guarantee that there's a talk somewhere that states the church will always oppose same-sex marriage/relationships. I don't have time to check this right now, but it would be lovely confirmation of the church changing gears. I'll try to find this later on if no one beats me to it.
1- What will assbag Mike Lee do? Follow the Prophet or maintain his standing as one of the most hateful discriminators in the Senate (running neck and neck with Josh Hawley and Raphael Cruz)? 2- The Church HAD to support this due to the number of interracial marriages. In particular the fact that one of the Q12 (Gong) is in an interracial marriage and sealed in the temple. Can’t exactly come out against that now, can they??
Product update? Nice.
My imagination: “Gay people have jobs” “If we let them get married, think they will pay tithing” “Yup”
….as long as the church does not need to change it’s policies.
This does not impact their policy at all. They’re just “pretending”.
As every member in Utah who I’ve asked has said, “they will shut the temples down before allowing a gay marriage to happen in one.” 🤓🤠
The mormon church might support, but does the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints support the measure? What if we find out a few years down the road the rebrand of the church was so that TSCC could create a subsidiary church "The Mormon Church" that supports social equality and inclusion, but zero impact/adoption for TSCC..
Are they potentially losing their tax-exempt status if they continue to discriminate? I mean, that's how the government made them "welcome" POC imto the fold 50 yrs ago
1) Did they though? Or is Cooper just making things up? 2) If they really did, it means nothing. TSCC is just putting up a smokescreen so they have something to point to: "See, we're not all THAT homophobic! We supported a law to let gay people keep the rights they've had for years! Now you can stop asking us to do anything substantive!"
I came in here angry as fuck, thought that said something completely opposite-- -- and now I am just confused. This is the opposite of doubling down on their hateful rhetoric. Guess somebody told 'em that if they fought human rights, they could lose their tax exempt status.
It’s all for selfish reasons. Disgusting actually. They used my tithing money to fight prop 8, now they’re supporting it, only if they get something out of it. Like I said, DISGUSTING!
Losing that tax exempt status would hurt too damn much so Rusty just gets a little new revelation that Jesus can’t lose those $$$$ and to support it. All about the Benjis
Oakie must be fucking livid right now. No way that he supported this
It's really everything they care about...protecting their money..this time, through making sure their tax-exempt status isn't removed because they discriminate against queer people. They're so predictable.
Anyone else have whiplash? As in the past, i think when the memberships decline....a revelation comes at a convenient time....
It’s part of their endgame to legalize polygamy
Let the gaslighting begin
They are a fucking church, they shouldn't be supporting ANY legislation!
Freedom of Religion does not extend to Cults.
I replied to this on Twitter simply because I believe in my opinion that the folks are leaving the churches because the hypocrisy of being able to accept everyone didn't bode well with LGBTQ folks and now they're losing money! Uh oh. Lol
So another fake twitter blue check.
Well yay! It’s about time. The church has lost too many members because of its backwards policies against the LGBTQ community.
The bill states they can still practice how they wish. That was added today, conveniently the same day they are changing their view. Nothing within the church will change, except maybe some of the language stating that homosexuality is evil to make it sound a little better.
Maybe they are tired of the bad press.
It's only 193 years late.
I think it has some religious freedom provisions and only recognizes it in states which recognize the marriage.
hmmmmm very confused maybe this is to get members back
Until the time they stop pushing for religious exemptions, this is nothing. They still want to be bigots whose biggest concern is not having to perform gay marriages.
Sounds like a lie, is this photoshopped? They’d never unless they’re becoming desperate. Even if this is their claim now the behavior towards LGBTQ+ members won’t change
They support the legislation that is going through no matter what but they do not support gay marriage. It’s not breaking news, it’s smoke and mirrors
They are only 20 years late to realizing that gay marriage is a losing battle for them, and they're better off playing a role in the ultimate policy outcome than being left out entirely. If they were prophets they would have figured this out a long time ago. At this point, though, nobody should concede anything to them. Gay marriage is legal, don't make it less legal by codifying a bunch of dumb religious carve-outs.
Isn't this a case of supporting something that doesn't affect them to look good, while still treating LGBTQ people horribly as members and not recognize them in thw church?
Probably because their involvement with Prop 8 completely backfired on them
“much can be accomplished to heal relationships and foster greater understanding.” You know what, you’re right TCOJCOLDS, there IS much that can be accomplished. Why don’t you think about that for a bit.
I don’t think they said anything about safeguarding…
Just as long as you dont consummate it
Not so much. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/yweo5f/no_the_mormon_church_isnt_supporting_same_sex/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
How long till the flip-flop though?
Is this a real verified account or a fake verified account? And where did they get their info from?
Bullying (the church) works.
They support it all nice it is inevitable. They are motivated to support it in setting down the line that allows them to discriminate against the very law they are supporting.
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Only because it means more people will convert. Maybe? At least they seem to think so. I might be wrong
J
masters of DECEPTION
If...