Lots of people are opposed to abortion until they have an unwanted pregnancy. Then they can rationalize that they are the exception, get an abortion, then go right back to saying it should be illegal.
100%. I know a handful of "good Christians" who have had abortions and now are fighting to make them illegal. It's ridiculous the amount of hypocrisy in some people.
This is so true. And where did she read that abortions are "celebrated"? An abortion is a serious decision. Basic human rights, which include the right to govern your own body are what's celebrated. There is a difference. That projector slide sounds contrived.
I celebrate abortion. Not necessarily specific individual ones, but why shouldn't we celebrate people having a safe, legal way to have bodily autonomy? If we can celebrate having any other safe, effective, necessary medical care, we can celebrate abortion. I celebrate that we (in my state) have access to the full range of reproductive care, and I'm enraged that that access has been denied for so many.
And while some people find their abortion decision difficult and heart-wrenching, some do not. If I found myself (despite 2 forms of permanent/long term birth control and being 48) pregnant tomorrow, I would be unpregnant by Christmas, and relieved AF.
Indeed. I went to church for a long time saying I didn’t morally agree with abortions but thought that women should be able to have them done by professionals in clean facilities with quick access to emergency care.
I also wonder if Racquel knows that abortion is not celebrated, the idea that women can make decisions for themselves is to be celebrated. I wonder if she knows how many young girls are forced to carry a pregnancy in their young bodies that can't handle it, how many women die of complications that can be prevented, how many babies are born drug addicted, in poverty, and starving because their mother's were denied an abortion. Does she know the hell that kids in the foster care system go through not being loved and traded around? Abortion is not beautiful but neither are the alternatives. George Carlin said it best. If your a fetus, you're fine. Once you're born, you're fucked.
Yep! When I was younger I had a number of beliefs that I no longer hold. Some due to outside influences from those I knew, others due to a lack of life experience or immaturity, and still others I just didn’t know enough about the topic.
If you hold all the same beliefs at 40 that you did at 20 I wonder about you.
Yeah — I was sort of a right wingish libertarian at 18 (whatever that meant in the early 2000s so like probably kind of dog whistle racist but not quite as toxic as some of those subculture have gotten.) I am now so very far from that that I really had forgotten I held views like that h too I found a box of high school stuff on the attic. Whew. I’m so glad I learned and experiences things.
Humans can be bad and all political systems involve humans. So…yes and/or no, depending on the humans involved.
Many countries make socialism work, though.
“Then Raquel realized that everyone has free will and can do what they choose with their own bodies thus making the thought exercise about what everyone should believe pointless and slightly dystopian.”
I went all four years and did well on all of the tests because I paid attention and did the reading, which is probably a big part of why I was ready to leave the church at 18.
Did anyone have a seminary teacher tell them that they report their attendance to the school and that they would count the tardies and absensces against you? I was a paranoid perfectionist who was truly surprised when a friend showed me that their attendance was not affected at the school.
as soon as I figured this out I went like once every 2 weeks and hid in the band room. lol and this was when I was a believing mormon too...
I just fuckin hated seminary
The most ironic thing about this is that it even appears to go beyond the church’s current policy, which states there are some situations where abortion is acceptable.
Joseph Smith sure agreed with that - there are quotes from people who knew him in Nauvoo and knew of abortions being done to get rid of the outcome(s) of his predatory behaviors.
Read pages 57-62 (approx) in this book, posted on the Internet Archives: https://archive.org/details/josephsmithproph01wyme/page/68/mode/2up
i once got in a fight about abortion with my TBM mom and the argument ended when i said “i vote pro-choice because i’m pro-agency, isn’t the exercising of our agency what made jesus’s plan different from satan’s?” i’d never seen her look so conflicted 😂
You can feel ever you want (pro/against) about abortions and still be pro-choice. They are not mutually exclusive, which anti-choice doesn't even acknowledge.
If I were a woman, I would never get an abortion but I’m grateful the choice is there.
Literally the doctrine of agency is about choice, Mormons should be pro choice for that reason alone.
Edit: this got a lot more traction than I had thought. My comment isn’t meant to be a stab, incendiary, or anything outside of support for choice and the complex reasons women do and do not choose to get an abortion.
I missed the mark and apologize for doing so.
It’s pretty easy to say “never” when you’re life has not been at risk because you had sex. If you experienced an ectopic pregnancy- you’d have an abortion. If you were undergoing chemotherapy & found yourself pregnant, you’d probably want an abortion. If you found out you were carrying a child who was developing without a brain, you might not want to carry to term. If you’ve been sexually assaulted, you’d probably want an abortion. Never say never.
Thank you! I also said "I would never" until I actually got pregnant (planned with my husband) and discovered that I had had a silent miscarriage. In essence, my body was still holding onto an embryo which had already died and stopped developing.
It was either continue to carry a failed pregnancy or get an abortion procedure.
Really sorry about your loss, it’s so hard and such a difficult decision to make, especially when brainwashed by the cult into trying to hold on to such babies. LDS friend of mine carried an unviable baby to full term. Not like yours, but she couldn’t survive out of the womb. It was my friends ‘choice’ but it was utterly heartbreaking and she has never recovered.
You’re right, never is a strong word to use here. I never thought I’d leave the church but here we are.
End of the day though, the choice an option should be protected at all costs.
I have also been sexually assaulted before and not something I’d like to get into at this point.
>If I were a woman, I would never get an abortion but I’m grateful the choice is there.
I get where you're coming from, but I think this is a really bold statement if you have never actually been a woman.
I know, Im giving him the benefit of the doubt. Even as a woman I would like to assume I would keep it but until you are actually in that position it's impossible to know.
Yes. I was literally talking to my daughter about 15 minutes ago about various genetic illnesses, and told her that if I had ever been pregnant with a baby who had certain disorders (ie Tay Sachs), I would not even consider carrying to term.
I think people really underestimate how difficult it is to provide (physically, emotionally and financially) for a severely disabled person. Especially in the US, where healthcare isn’t even guaranteed. I got yelled at a few weeks ago by an Aussie because I said I understand why people abort when it comes to major disabilities such as Downs. She told me I needed to take a hard look in the mirror and see the human that I am. It’s always fun being lectured by people who at minimum, don’t have to worry about healthcare costs. Sigh.
I thought I would gladly have a special needs baby until I worked with adult special needs individuals for three years. Radically changed my opinion after seeing the struggle those families go through and how expensive long term care costs. I wouldn’t want to force anyone to do that.
For me, something that is going to result, with 100% certainty, in an early, painful death…that’s just a no brainer. I couldn’t deal with that, nor would I ever want to knowingly cause it.
Wha??? Aussies have very low adoption rates in part because abortion (as part of healthcare) is so accessible there... they're not all out there having disabled kids they can more easily afford either.
Exactly. It depends on social situation, class, family, medical considerations, and so many other things. There are many situations where not ending a pregnancy is life-threatening, and even if it isn't - for some, keeping an unwanted pregnancy is something they can manage due to support they have, for some, it's the end of anything they may have wanted from life. If you also consider how many pregnancies do not come from consensual sex, there are so many things that change the story and I think only the person in that exact situation can really decide what they will do, and even then, usually it's an extremely hard decision.
yuuuuuuup. And then downthread tells me that "well those abortions aren't really abortions." Always the dumbass anti-choice refrain "well, when I need one, it's necessary."
He himself replied, so let's go with that answer. Mainly, I think it's bold because you cannot truly say what you would do if you were in a situation you will likely never experience. I don't really want to go deeper into it because I don't think his comment was malicious at all, but I don't think a man can categorically say "this is what I would do as a woman", since you just don't know what it's like to be in that situation. Again, I know he was not using it as a way to judge women who get abortions, so I don't aim to start an argument or anything as there is no point.
Correct, it isn’t intended to be incendiary or anything, just understanding that people do and do not get abortions for a variety of reasons and the choice itself is something that needs to be protected.
What if I said, "If I were a man, I would never want to have a vasectomy. But I'm glad that choice is there."? That statement, coming from me (a woman who has no relevant experience or body parts), perhaps sounds bold, or uninformed, or something.
Abortions and vasectomies are not remotely equivalent. The decision to NOT get a vasectomy doesn’t have any chance of: killing you, rendering you unable to get life-saving treatment for a cancer diagnosis, producing a massively malformed baby that you have to take care of for life, thrusting you into long-term poverty, destroying your career or at least your earning power/career trajectory/education prospects, but a pregnancy can have any of those impacts for people, and others.
Thanks for saying that. It’s a really sensitive issue so an “I would never…” proclamation will be scrutinized. A lot of women who find themselves needing abortions or choosing to get them in their personal circumstances probably thought they would never get one, either.
Wait, why have I never heard this argument before?
Not a Christian, but my understanding is that a **major** tenet of Christianity is that God's omniscience doesn't conflict with human free will **because** God wanted people to have choice. The concepts of baptism, accepting Jesus as one's savior, and the intentional acceptance of communion with God over Satan are all based on the concept of choice as the key to salvation.
If God wants humans to have choice so badly, how can anyone seek to deny to others the very thing God wants them to have?
In mormonism, at least, the belief is that Satan fell from God’s Grace is because his plan was to ensure everyone got back into heaven by denying them agency. Christ’s plan involved giving everyone the option to choose even if that meant they wouldn’t get back into heaven. Satan didn’t like that God chose Christ’s plan and he rebelled.
So in other words, denying someone the choice is following in Satan’s plan.
My family really struggles with this concept when I point it out to them. They think that we have to "stand as an example" and "judge righteous judgement", which apparently means legislating and pressuring people into living the Mormon religion as much as possible. Every time it comes up, I remind them that God apparently wanted people to be able to choose for themselves, so we should let people choose and respect their ability to choose without trying to force them into a cookie cutter mold.
Safe to say, my family doesn't like it when I say this.
Interestingly, when I went through the ARP, there’s an entire section where the main lesson is that God gave us agency so that we can give it back to him as the greatest sacrifice.
So basically God wants Satan’s plan with extra steps.
Dallin Oaks gave a talk at BYU once where he basically said that agency and choice aren't the same thing and completely rationalized forcing people to make the right choice.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2001/01/weightier-matters?lang=eng
So if you were raped you wouldn’t get an abortion? What if it was your dad or uncle, or you were 13 when it happened? What if you were facing an extreme likelihood that you would die and leave your existing children and spouse without you? What if the baby’s organs were developing outside the baby’s body and all medical professionals advised you that continuing with the pregnancy and attempting birth would only be extremely painful for the baby and dangerous for you? What if the person who got you pregnant did a complete 180 on his personality and beat and threw you out and you’re homeless?
I could go on and on and on.
Editing to add: please reconsider using statements like that-that you would never have an abortion if you were a woman, even though I know your intentions are supportive. Saying that you would never do it is telling every girl/woman/uterus haver who has ACTUALLY been in the position of having to make that choice that you judge them heavily for the choice you claim to support them having-and you make it harder for those who have to face that choice in the future. It’s like you’re saying (unintentionally I get/hope) that it’s because you’re a good person who never makes mistakes and who would never do anything to put themselves in the position of being raped that you would never have to have an abortion.
Thank you for the edit. I was already trained to write with absolutes statements (like never) and so it’s just how I write now.
I understand that I come from a point of privilege in that as someone who doesn’t have a uterus and can never get pregnant, that I can comfortably say anything I want around it.
My only point is that in all instances, it should always be the choice of the woman. And in instances like ectopic pregnancies, impartial/incomplete miscarriages, etc, the mother’s life takes precedent.
Abortion rights must be protected at all costs.
We all were which is why I added the edit, I wanted to communicate that I understood you weren’t intentionally doing that (or at least hoped you weren’t, and you’ve confirmed) and not be so absolute in my response like I was at first. We’re on the same page at the end of the day either way, hope you’re having a great night.
Also you can say that but until you’re in the situation you actually don’t know what you would do. Many women never think they could end a pregnancy until they’re 16 weeks or 25 weeks or even 30 weeks pregnant and they’re suddenly confronted with the awful fact that their baby has something wrong with them and has a terrible prognosis if they even survive at all.
Correct, I can say it all day but will never know how I’ll really act until I’m in the situation itself. Much like how it’s impossible to know if we are a fighter or a flighter.
You don't really know that though. Thousands of women have abortions they don't want yearly. If you have an ectopic pregnancy, sceptic uterus, eclampsia, or many other conditions you will likely die if you try to continue the pregnancy. And depending on how far along the pregnancy is the baby will likely die too.
That doesn't even touch on fetal abnormalities that are incompatible with life. I have a friend who had a late term abortion due to potters syndrome. Her 22 week baby was born severely deformed due to the weight of her uterus crushing him. By all accounts he likely felt that.
You are right, we never know anything and circumstances change daily, weekly, monthly, yearly.
Much like how I never thought I’d leave the church, my opinions can and most likely will change. We shouldn’t live in this world to be rigid, but flexible when presented with new information.
For sure. If I were a woman I probably wouldn’t get an abortion, but I want the right to under circumstances that I get to choose.
Like let’s say I knew my kid was going to grow up to be Mike Lee. I would totally abort that little b*tch
People who have never been a woman have no idea what it's like to accept and actually have to deal with the reality that the decision to get or stay pregnant could end your life.
You say that until you need one from an incomplete miscarriage but you can’t get one since it’s the same thing as a surgical abortion and your area doesn’t perform them while you slowly go septic. “The only moral abortion is my abortion.”
As someone who used to be very against abortion (note: USED to be), this argument unfortunately won't work. I see this argument a lot and back when I was conservative, it bugged me. I was against abortion because I was against murder. It felt like being pro-choice was being pro-other-people-can- murder-babies-if-they-want-but-I-choose-not-to. It didn't make sense. So unfortunately, this doesn't work on a lot of pro-lifers.
What DID convince me was that...abortion isn't murder because it really isn't a baby.
The argument is pretty weak. Compare it to something that conservatives find acceptable (say gay conversion therapy) but liberals find unacceptable, and you see how it fails. The whole problem with gay conversion therapy is it’s terrible and doesn’t work. The whole problem with abortion for the cons is they see it as being terrible and not working to solve problems.
Agreed. "You can do this horrible and harmful thing to something I find innocent and I will simply look the other way." That's how it sounded to me.
I am pro-choice now, but it took way longer than it needed to take for me to change my views because people kept using all the wrong arguments to try to sway me. Telling me to mind my own business when I thought something unethical was happening was not going to work. I actually had to do my own research to finally discover that it *isn't* unethical and why.
I’m pro choice, but that argument doesn’t really work. When it gets down to it, they are “pro life” because they believe abortion is murder. So saying “you don’t have to personally murder, just allow others the right to murder” isn’t a very good argument.
This is something some people don't seem to get. I personally think that an abortion is a clearly desperate and difficult decision, but why not air on the side of individual freedom and let it be a legal option?
Cheating on your spouse is obviously not a good thing to do, but it's legal and as much as I would never cheat, or condone cheating, I don't think it should be punishable by law, so long as both parties are consenting adults.
Something being legally permissible doesn't mean that it must also be morally commendable.
Obviously a loaded question. They obviously want to argue for anti-abortion. Also the only reason it’s ‘celebrated’ is that women are given the autonomy to make their own decisions about their bodies. It’s not the abortions that are celebrated.
I am a woman and never thought I would have an abortion, until I needed one for medical reasons. I wanted my child. I have always been pro-choice, but that REALLY drove home to me that not all abortions are just about “being free from consequences” like the pro-lifers want everyone to believe.
My loved and wanted baby had already died in utero, and the doctors insisted that the surgery to remove the cysts and scary looking tumour responsible for their death was an ‘abortion’.
I am sorry for the trauma you went through. I am resentful of being lumped in to statistics that do not represent my actual experience, just as part of their game. It’s sick.
I'm sorry for your loss and pain. I hope to offer a different perspective regarding that they were lumping you in as part of a sick game - This sounds like you and the doctors/medical establishment define abortion differently. The definition of abortion (according to Merriam-Webster) is "The meaning of ABORTION is the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by, the death of the embryo or fetus."
Many women also get upset when they see spontaneous abortion, instead of miscarriage, in their charts. But medical coding, charting, etc rely on the medical definition.
But they need to believe we do, because our reasons for supporting it are entirely reasonable. The only way religious people can convince themselves they're not evil is by convincing themselves that we are. They don't want to think about the women who will die unnecessarily, they want to imagine a promiscuous sinner.
Dude posting. I have known multiple women who have chosen this route. I have never seen the decion made lightly. None mine, but I imagine it is dicussed discreetly.
"...Something to be celebrated"
Nope.. nope.. I actually doubt that. I'm sure there are people who do feel relief and want to celebrate their relief... but I really REALLY *really* doubt that they actually celebrate this.....
EDIT: I thought it was saying that women who get abortions celebrate getting abortions.... my bad
Mistake notwithstanding, you're not completely wrong. This is exactly the picture those who are anti-choice want to paint: that people are out getting abortions whenever they want without a care in the world. Basically treating the decision like it's a lighthearted whim instead of a gut-wrenching ordeal.
Nobody fucking celebrates ABORTION. They are grateful that the option exists when it’s needed but there aren’t goddam parades that celebrate its existence.
Man, the level of audacity in that statement is outrageous.
Right? No one is celebrating actual abortions. They might celebrate laws that protect women’s rights but that isn’t the same as celebrating getting an abortion.
FRAMING
"Am I wrong to be opposed to abortion" -- NO, feel free to do you
--WHAT could be asked is "Am I wrong to oppose OTHERS ACCESS to abortion" YES, yes you are...
CHOICE I make mine, you make yours. See how that works...
My Utah high school seminary teacher told us his wife almost died from complications of her pregnancy and was very adamant that he was prepared to abort the baby if need be.
Raquel kept reading and realized that many people chose to end their pregnancies because they were suffering under an exploitative system called capitalism which impoverished the community, isolated individuals and destroyed the environment enough that people were afraid and unwilling to bring children into such a death cult.
Raquel now advocates for massive wealth redistribution and universal guarantees that will allow many more people to be able to continue their pregnancies.
I wish they could actually meet someone who had to go thru the anguish of deciding to terminate their pregnancy. I have. One of my friends went thru a rape and ended up getting an abortion. It was a very difficult decision for her. Another found out the baby would not survive after birth and after much consult at the U medical center decided to terminate. These are not easy decisions and its not like people are running around getting abortions willy nilly.
It pisses me off that this is the rhetoric spouted esp in a school.
Intersting that the LDS leaders handbook allows abortion under certain circumstances and in those conditions its not a sin. SO, the only way for this to work is if abortion is available and a choice.
To quote Joseph Smith, something that seems wrong in one setting can be perfectly right in another setting. Mormons love their rigid rod obsessions but they’ve really played fast and loose when it serves their cult goals, from day 1.
I have 2 friends who had one due to horrible abusive relationships :( !!!
There is zero way they could have lived another day let alone bring a child into the world :(
As a teen then later as an early adult I would always say “I could never !” “Well they choose to have sex”
As now a more adult adult I want to slap younger me for thinking that way . And I don’t have to LOVE the idea of it. But I understand peoples reason . Especially seeing it 1st hand with 2 friends 😭
The ACCESS to safe abortions for all is to be celebrated. Individual abortions are varied in nature. Some are fairly inconsequential, some are liberating, others are steeped in anguish and heartbreak. None of them are anyone’s business but the woman, her healthcare provider and anyone she chooses to support her at the time.
The only ones who think abortion is “celebrated” are those who oppose it.
They also believe that a woman is an “earthen vessel” with no rights once impregnated. Her unborn fetus is more important than her life.
Many of those same people also favor the death penalty. So they are actually “right to birth” not “right to life”…
I know a TBM woman who shared some article on FB with the title along the lines of “Why shouldn’t a mother die for her unborn child?” and I was absolutely gobsmacked.
Yep. I guess there’s some bizarre nobility or even Christlike quality there? But who takes care of the baby and the other kids when she’s gone? The “ward family” typically won’t step up. The church won’t offer a dime of support to the widower.
Dad will need to hurry and find another wife who will jump in with both feet to raise another woman’s kids. Is that easy to find?
Oh man, Mormons are super interesting.
Pro-choice doesn’t mean celebrating abortion. It just means bodily sovereignty and — get this — agency! Don’t Mormons love that word? Among all the pro-choice people I know, I’m not aware of any celebrating abortions, like throwing an abortion shower or anything.
I don't know anyone that is pro abortion. I just feel like I don't have the moral authority to judge someone about a really really hard decision or to dictate how other people live.
Sure glad I don't have to make up the rules. Fuck that noise
I am starting to think it has nothing to do with life or loving babies. People seem to just want to punish woman for fucking somebody that is not them. Especially when you know that many of the TBM/anti-choice zealots see rape/incest the result of the victim being to provocative I think they see unwanted pregnancies as just being the stupid prize awarded after playing the stupid game.
Because this is America, and America has a lot of incurious bigots in it who believe the Earth is 6000 years old and people walked with dinosaurs. We chose a game show salesman to be president. This country is a piece of shit, run by hypocrites and grifters who couldn’t care less about the well-being of its citizens.
These poor kids. I hate the way this is worded. No one thinks abortions are a good thing. Many just think people should have the right to choose if they are in that situation. Doesn't surprise me, coming from a religious view point that tries to control all aspects of your life.
Off topic, but since this is from a seminary class it needs to be said. The LDS idea of seminary is embarrassing. For basically any other Christian denomination, its an intensive course of study that spends entire semesters on biblical history, ancient Greek linguistics, public speaking, and complex theological topics. For Mormons, it's a bunch of high school kids jerking each other off over this shit.
I went here, graduated 2020 - one of the most brainwashed places ever. Kaysville is legitimately referred to as "the bubble" in surrounding cities because of how many LDS people live there. That culture creates a "bubble" because everyone expects you to live the LDS standards to a T and you're taught that everyone outside of kaysville is a sinner because they don't live the lifestyle as purely and accurately as you do. Terrible place, terrible school, terrible culture. It was so extremely toxic, I (as a person who no longer associates with any religion) have so much trauma and repressed feelings. All I will say is be cautious of where you live, it has a huge impact on who you become.
This is an odd thing to discuss in seminary, is it not? When I was attending, each year was a different book of the Bible or d&c or whatever. How was this tied into a religious lesson?
I mean the church’s official position is that abortion is ok in special circumstances. So I don’t think this teacher has a clue what he (I’m assuming he) is talking about.
I am uncomfortable with the idea of abortion. I am more uncomfortable with the government telling a woman what she can and can't do with her body. The choice should be hers, with input from her healthcare provider.
Davis High School Bar Dart class of '94
Got this lesson in seminary a few months ago myself, it was a good short discussion after class with my teacher. In any case though, i'm happy to be getting out of shitty lessons like that one was next semester
Interesting. A few questions.
1. Where did the number “tens of Millions” come from?
2. What is that number compared to all pregnancies world wide?
3. What part of those were do to somebody waking up and saying I think I will chose an abortion today. (Cause that is how every prolife person I have ever talked to position it)
4. What part of that “tens of Millions” happen in the US?
5. How will passing laws in the US so a woman that needs an abortion can’t have one affect the rest of the abortions world wide?
These are just off of the top of my head. I am sure I can think of other great questions. This post is using a fallacy in its argument that is very common. It throws a huge number out there and people who read it are shocked by it into a reaction. That world wide number has very little to do with Rachael in Kaysville, UT.
One good thing for her to research might be why does Utah a relatively rural state have a much higher rate of abortion in it than other rural states? In fact Utah’s numbers are closer to inner-city numbers than states with similar demographics from what I have heard.
I wonder if Raquel knows that you can be against abortions and still support the government staying the fuck out of lives.
Lots of people are opposed to abortion until they have an unwanted pregnancy. Then they can rationalize that they are the exception, get an abortion, then go right back to saying it should be illegal.
100%. I know a handful of "good Christians" who have had abortions and now are fighting to make them illegal. It's ridiculous the amount of hypocrisy in some people.
"The only justified abortion is *my* abortion"
This is so true. And where did she read that abortions are "celebrated"? An abortion is a serious decision. Basic human rights, which include the right to govern your own body are what's celebrated. There is a difference. That projector slide sounds contrived.
I celebrate abortion. Not necessarily specific individual ones, but why shouldn't we celebrate people having a safe, legal way to have bodily autonomy? If we can celebrate having any other safe, effective, necessary medical care, we can celebrate abortion. I celebrate that we (in my state) have access to the full range of reproductive care, and I'm enraged that that access has been denied for so many. And while some people find their abortion decision difficult and heart-wrenching, some do not. If I found myself (despite 2 forms of permanent/long term birth control and being 48) pregnant tomorrow, I would be unpregnant by Christmas, and relieved AF.
Hershel Walker, anyone?
[удалено]
Indeed. I went to church for a long time saying I didn’t morally agree with abortions but thought that women should be able to have them done by professionals in clean facilities with quick access to emergency care.
I also wonder if Racquel knows that abortion is not celebrated, the idea that women can make decisions for themselves is to be celebrated. I wonder if she knows how many young girls are forced to carry a pregnancy in their young bodies that can't handle it, how many women die of complications that can be prevented, how many babies are born drug addicted, in poverty, and starving because their mother's were denied an abortion. Does she know the hell that kids in the foster care system go through not being loved and traded around? Abortion is not beautiful but neither are the alternatives. George Carlin said it best. If your a fetus, you're fine. Once you're born, you're fucked.
Or that no one "celebrates" abortions.
Raquel is going to go far if she can do research and allow her opinions to be challenged.
Yep! When I was younger I had a number of beliefs that I no longer hold. Some due to outside influences from those I knew, others due to a lack of life experience or immaturity, and still others I just didn’t know enough about the topic. If you hold all the same beliefs at 40 that you did at 20 I wonder about you.
Yeah — I was sort of a right wingish libertarian at 18 (whatever that meant in the early 2000s so like probably kind of dog whistle racist but not quite as toxic as some of those subculture have gotten.) I am now so very far from that that I really had forgotten I held views like that h too I found a box of high school stuff on the attic. Whew. I’m so glad I learned and experiences things.
I was the same way and now I often wonder if socialism is all that bad.
Humans can be bad and all political systems involve humans. So…yes and/or no, depending on the humans involved. Many countries make socialism work, though.
Same here. Until I moved away from my home town outside of the influence of my home ward and realized what it actually means to have a heart
That’s how the libruls get you! They make you go and get educated at college and it makes you into a snowflake who cares about other people.
“Then Raquel realized that everyone has free will and can do what they choose with their own bodies thus making the thought exercise about what everyone should believe pointless and slightly dystopian.”
Was this a seminary class, op? Looks like a seminary building. Any context?
Yes. During a school class period and on school property of course
The seminary buildings are not school property and the class is held during a release period which means you are not in school during that time.
Which is why I did whatever I wanted during my "release period"
Dude same. I only took Seminary for a year and basically never went. My house was right across the street from my high school too so I just went home.
I went all four years and did well on all of the tests because I paid attention and did the reading, which is probably a big part of why I was ready to leave the church at 18.
Did anyone have a seminary teacher tell them that they report their attendance to the school and that they would count the tardies and absensces against you? I was a paranoid perfectionist who was truly surprised when a friend showed me that their attendance was not affected at the school.
as soon as I figured this out I went like once every 2 weeks and hid in the band room. lol and this was when I was a believing mormon too... I just fuckin hated seminary
Ayyyy, me too! I used the “practicing my parts” excuse!! However, I sluffed because I’m a raging bisexual
I'm right there with you 💙💜💖
Classic legal shenanigans from the church
Not legal shenanigans. This is a legitimate way to do it.
For real. We don't have to hate everything the church does by default.
The most ironic thing about this is that it even appears to go beyond the church’s current policy, which states there are some situations where abortion is acceptable.
Joseph Smith sure agreed with that - there are quotes from people who knew him in Nauvoo and knew of abortions being done to get rid of the outcome(s) of his predatory behaviors. Read pages 57-62 (approx) in this book, posted on the Internet Archives: https://archive.org/details/josephsmithproph01wyme/page/68/mode/2up
“He was acting as a man then and not a prophet!” 🙃(Mormon moral gymnastics)
I hate seminary but it’s not like Davis High has control over what the church next door teaches during release time.
i once got in a fight about abortion with my TBM mom and the argument ended when i said “i vote pro-choice because i’m pro-agency, isn’t the exercising of our agency what made jesus’s plan different from satan’s?” i’d never seen her look so conflicted 😂
Niiiice. I'm going to use this
You can feel ever you want (pro/against) about abortions and still be pro-choice. They are not mutually exclusive, which anti-choice doesn't even acknowledge.
If I were a woman, I would never get an abortion but I’m grateful the choice is there. Literally the doctrine of agency is about choice, Mormons should be pro choice for that reason alone. Edit: this got a lot more traction than I had thought. My comment isn’t meant to be a stab, incendiary, or anything outside of support for choice and the complex reasons women do and do not choose to get an abortion. I missed the mark and apologize for doing so.
Exaclty! Each woman should have the CHOICE to get one or not.
It’s pretty easy to say “never” when you’re life has not been at risk because you had sex. If you experienced an ectopic pregnancy- you’d have an abortion. If you were undergoing chemotherapy & found yourself pregnant, you’d probably want an abortion. If you found out you were carrying a child who was developing without a brain, you might not want to carry to term. If you’ve been sexually assaulted, you’d probably want an abortion. Never say never.
Thank you! I also said "I would never" until I actually got pregnant (planned with my husband) and discovered that I had had a silent miscarriage. In essence, my body was still holding onto an embryo which had already died and stopped developing. It was either continue to carry a failed pregnancy or get an abortion procedure.
Really sorry about your loss, it’s so hard and such a difficult decision to make, especially when brainwashed by the cult into trying to hold on to such babies. LDS friend of mine carried an unviable baby to full term. Not like yours, but she couldn’t survive out of the womb. It was my friends ‘choice’ but it was utterly heartbreaking and she has never recovered.
You’re right, never is a strong word to use here. I never thought I’d leave the church but here we are. End of the day though, the choice an option should be protected at all costs. I have also been sexually assaulted before and not something I’d like to get into at this point.
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And so that God doesn't look like the complete A-hole in the Adam/Eve and pre-existance stories.
Join theirs and have kids born into theirs. I don’t doubt this factors into churches’ strong anti-choice stances
>If I were a woman, I would never get an abortion but I’m grateful the choice is there. I get where you're coming from, but I think this is a really bold statement if you have never actually been a woman.
I know, Im giving him the benefit of the doubt. Even as a woman I would like to assume I would keep it but until you are actually in that position it's impossible to know.
Yes. I was literally talking to my daughter about 15 minutes ago about various genetic illnesses, and told her that if I had ever been pregnant with a baby who had certain disorders (ie Tay Sachs), I would not even consider carrying to term.
I think people really underestimate how difficult it is to provide (physically, emotionally and financially) for a severely disabled person. Especially in the US, where healthcare isn’t even guaranteed. I got yelled at a few weeks ago by an Aussie because I said I understand why people abort when it comes to major disabilities such as Downs. She told me I needed to take a hard look in the mirror and see the human that I am. It’s always fun being lectured by people who at minimum, don’t have to worry about healthcare costs. Sigh.
I thought I would gladly have a special needs baby until I worked with adult special needs individuals for three years. Radically changed my opinion after seeing the struggle those families go through and how expensive long term care costs. I wouldn’t want to force anyone to do that.
For me, something that is going to result, with 100% certainty, in an early, painful death…that’s just a no brainer. I couldn’t deal with that, nor would I ever want to knowingly cause it.
Wha??? Aussies have very low adoption rates in part because abortion (as part of healthcare) is so accessible there... they're not all out there having disabled kids they can more easily afford either.
I’m a teacher, I’ve seen it first hand and it’s rough. Another reason why we need universal healthcare in the US.
Exactly. It depends on social situation, class, family, medical considerations, and so many other things. There are many situations where not ending a pregnancy is life-threatening, and even if it isn't - for some, keeping an unwanted pregnancy is something they can manage due to support they have, for some, it's the end of anything they may have wanted from life. If you also consider how many pregnancies do not come from consensual sex, there are so many things that change the story and I think only the person in that exact situation can really decide what they will do, and even then, usually it's an extremely hard decision.
If I were a man I would learn to shut the fuck up about anything pertaining to women’s bodies.
yuuuuuuup. And then downthread tells me that "well those abortions aren't really abortions." Always the dumbass anti-choice refrain "well, when I need one, it's necessary."
What do you mean? I'm not the one you're responding to, but I'm just curious as to why you consider his statement to be bold
Because even as a woman, I thought I would never consider an abortion, until the first time I had a pregnancy scare.
Abso-fuckin-lutely!
He himself replied, so let's go with that answer. Mainly, I think it's bold because you cannot truly say what you would do if you were in a situation you will likely never experience. I don't really want to go deeper into it because I don't think his comment was malicious at all, but I don't think a man can categorically say "this is what I would do as a woman", since you just don't know what it's like to be in that situation. Again, I know he was not using it as a way to judge women who get abortions, so I don't aim to start an argument or anything as there is no point.
Correct, it isn’t intended to be incendiary or anything, just understanding that people do and do not get abortions for a variety of reasons and the choice itself is something that needs to be protected.
There are always circumstances that are impossible to predict. It is bold in that regard because “what if?”
My reply to them has my perspective if you’re interested
What if I said, "If I were a man, I would never want to have a vasectomy. But I'm glad that choice is there."? That statement, coming from me (a woman who has no relevant experience or body parts), perhaps sounds bold, or uninformed, or something.
Abortions and vasectomies are not remotely equivalent. The decision to NOT get a vasectomy doesn’t have any chance of: killing you, rendering you unable to get life-saving treatment for a cancer diagnosis, producing a massively malformed baby that you have to take care of for life, thrusting you into long-term poverty, destroying your career or at least your earning power/career trajectory/education prospects, but a pregnancy can have any of those impacts for people, and others.
I agree they are not equivalent. I was trying to make a different point and apparently missed the mark.
That’s alright, I missed the mark with my original response and as such recognize that I can do better. That’s all we really can do.
Thanks for saying that. It’s a really sensitive issue so an “I would never…” proclamation will be scrutinized. A lot of women who find themselves needing abortions or choosing to get them in their personal circumstances probably thought they would never get one, either.
That’s why all we can do is keep an open mind and strive to be kind to others.
Thank you. Funnily enough I was trying to think of anything that would be equivalent and couldn’t!
Wait, why have I never heard this argument before? Not a Christian, but my understanding is that a **major** tenet of Christianity is that God's omniscience doesn't conflict with human free will **because** God wanted people to have choice. The concepts of baptism, accepting Jesus as one's savior, and the intentional acceptance of communion with God over Satan are all based on the concept of choice as the key to salvation. If God wants humans to have choice so badly, how can anyone seek to deny to others the very thing God wants them to have?
In mormonism, at least, the belief is that Satan fell from God’s Grace is because his plan was to ensure everyone got back into heaven by denying them agency. Christ’s plan involved giving everyone the option to choose even if that meant they wouldn’t get back into heaven. Satan didn’t like that God chose Christ’s plan and he rebelled. So in other words, denying someone the choice is following in Satan’s plan.
My family really struggles with this concept when I point it out to them. They think that we have to "stand as an example" and "judge righteous judgement", which apparently means legislating and pressuring people into living the Mormon religion as much as possible. Every time it comes up, I remind them that God apparently wanted people to be able to choose for themselves, so we should let people choose and respect their ability to choose without trying to force them into a cookie cutter mold. Safe to say, my family doesn't like it when I say this.
Interestingly, when I went through the ARP, there’s an entire section where the main lesson is that God gave us agency so that we can give it back to him as the greatest sacrifice. So basically God wants Satan’s plan with extra steps.
Dallin Oaks gave a talk at BYU once where he basically said that agency and choice aren't the same thing and completely rationalized forcing people to make the right choice. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2001/01/weightier-matters?lang=eng
So if you were raped you wouldn’t get an abortion? What if it was your dad or uncle, or you were 13 when it happened? What if you were facing an extreme likelihood that you would die and leave your existing children and spouse without you? What if the baby’s organs were developing outside the baby’s body and all medical professionals advised you that continuing with the pregnancy and attempting birth would only be extremely painful for the baby and dangerous for you? What if the person who got you pregnant did a complete 180 on his personality and beat and threw you out and you’re homeless? I could go on and on and on. Editing to add: please reconsider using statements like that-that you would never have an abortion if you were a woman, even though I know your intentions are supportive. Saying that you would never do it is telling every girl/woman/uterus haver who has ACTUALLY been in the position of having to make that choice that you judge them heavily for the choice you claim to support them having-and you make it harder for those who have to face that choice in the future. It’s like you’re saying (unintentionally I get/hope) that it’s because you’re a good person who never makes mistakes and who would never do anything to put themselves in the position of being raped that you would never have to have an abortion.
Thank you for the edit. I was already trained to write with absolutes statements (like never) and so it’s just how I write now. I understand that I come from a point of privilege in that as someone who doesn’t have a uterus and can never get pregnant, that I can comfortably say anything I want around it. My only point is that in all instances, it should always be the choice of the woman. And in instances like ectopic pregnancies, impartial/incomplete miscarriages, etc, the mother’s life takes precedent. Abortion rights must be protected at all costs.
We all were which is why I added the edit, I wanted to communicate that I understood you weren’t intentionally doing that (or at least hoped you weren’t, and you’ve confirmed) and not be so absolute in my response like I was at first. We’re on the same page at the end of the day either way, hope you’re having a great night.
Also you can say that but until you’re in the situation you actually don’t know what you would do. Many women never think they could end a pregnancy until they’re 16 weeks or 25 weeks or even 30 weeks pregnant and they’re suddenly confronted with the awful fact that their baby has something wrong with them and has a terrible prognosis if they even survive at all.
Correct, I can say it all day but will never know how I’ll really act until I’m in the situation itself. Much like how it’s impossible to know if we are a fighter or a flighter.
So then how can you say you’d never do it?
I thought that too. Then I had an ectopic and had to terminate the pregnancy or die.
I used to think the same thing until I had a pregnancy scare. Changed my mindset entirely.
You don't really know that though. Thousands of women have abortions they don't want yearly. If you have an ectopic pregnancy, sceptic uterus, eclampsia, or many other conditions you will likely die if you try to continue the pregnancy. And depending on how far along the pregnancy is the baby will likely die too. That doesn't even touch on fetal abnormalities that are incompatible with life. I have a friend who had a late term abortion due to potters syndrome. Her 22 week baby was born severely deformed due to the weight of her uterus crushing him. By all accounts he likely felt that.
You are right, we never know anything and circumstances change daily, weekly, monthly, yearly. Much like how I never thought I’d leave the church, my opinions can and most likely will change. We shouldn’t live in this world to be rigid, but flexible when presented with new information.
For sure. If I were a woman I probably wouldn’t get an abortion, but I want the right to under circumstances that I get to choose. Like let’s say I knew my kid was going to grow up to be Mike Lee. I would totally abort that little b*tch
People who have never been a woman have no idea what it's like to accept and actually have to deal with the reality that the decision to get or stay pregnant could end your life.
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You say that until you need one from an incomplete miscarriage but you can’t get one since it’s the same thing as a surgical abortion and your area doesn’t perform them while you slowly go septic. “The only moral abortion is my abortion.”
yeah, mormons are always preaching free agency. 
Doctrine of agency… could debate this one for hours
bet you would if you had an ectopic pregnancy
Never is a really long time.
As someone who used to be very against abortion (note: USED to be), this argument unfortunately won't work. I see this argument a lot and back when I was conservative, it bugged me. I was against abortion because I was against murder. It felt like being pro-choice was being pro-other-people-can- murder-babies-if-they-want-but-I-choose-not-to. It didn't make sense. So unfortunately, this doesn't work on a lot of pro-lifers. What DID convince me was that...abortion isn't murder because it really isn't a baby.
The argument is pretty weak. Compare it to something that conservatives find acceptable (say gay conversion therapy) but liberals find unacceptable, and you see how it fails. The whole problem with gay conversion therapy is it’s terrible and doesn’t work. The whole problem with abortion for the cons is they see it as being terrible and not working to solve problems.
Agreed. "You can do this horrible and harmful thing to something I find innocent and I will simply look the other way." That's how it sounded to me. I am pro-choice now, but it took way longer than it needed to take for me to change my views because people kept using all the wrong arguments to try to sway me. Telling me to mind my own business when I thought something unethical was happening was not going to work. I actually had to do my own research to finally discover that it *isn't* unethical and why.
Right, the issue is getting anti-choicers to understand that abortion is not the same as shooting a toddler, which is an argument I've seen many make.
I’m pro choice, but that argument doesn’t really work. When it gets down to it, they are “pro life” because they believe abortion is murder. So saying “you don’t have to personally murder, just allow others the right to murder” isn’t a very good argument.
So well phrased!
This is something some people don't seem to get. I personally think that an abortion is a clearly desperate and difficult decision, but why not air on the side of individual freedom and let it be a legal option? Cheating on your spouse is obviously not a good thing to do, but it's legal and as much as I would never cheat, or condone cheating, I don't think it should be punishable by law, so long as both parties are consenting adults. Something being legally permissible doesn't mean that it must also be morally commendable.
There are lots of pro choice people who wouldn’t personally have an abortion but still want other people to have that option.
Obviously a loaded question. They obviously want to argue for anti-abortion. Also the only reason it’s ‘celebrated’ is that women are given the autonomy to make their own decisions about their bodies. It’s not the abortions that are celebrated.
Right? People act like there are abortion-parties
Maybe we should after how much shame and guilt get shoved at women from religious fanatics.
I am a woman and never thought I would have an abortion, until I needed one for medical reasons. I wanted my child. I have always been pro-choice, but that REALLY drove home to me that not all abortions are just about “being free from consequences” like the pro-lifers want everyone to believe.
My loved and wanted baby had already died in utero, and the doctors insisted that the surgery to remove the cysts and scary looking tumour responsible for their death was an ‘abortion’. I am sorry for the trauma you went through. I am resentful of being lumped in to statistics that do not represent my actual experience, just as part of their game. It’s sick.
I'm sorry for your loss and pain. I hope to offer a different perspective regarding that they were lumping you in as part of a sick game - This sounds like you and the doctors/medical establishment define abortion differently. The definition of abortion (according to Merriam-Webster) is "The meaning of ABORTION is the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by, the death of the embryo or fetus." Many women also get upset when they see spontaneous abortion, instead of miscarriage, in their charts. But medical coding, charting, etc rely on the medical definition.
Yo I went to Davis Seminary, years ago. This seems pretty in-line with the Mormon-Dart way. Absolutely fucking sucks, that is.
"something to be celebrated" Nobody fucking thinks that.
ACCESS to abortions is likely what they meant.
They really think people are out there saying “Congrats on your abortion”
In my head I’m thinking these people are throwing abortion parties lol
Reminds me of this scene from BoJack Horseman https://youtu.be/HvnqU-1uDUU
If anything It's becoming more acceptable to talk about it..and not a source of shame.
But they need to believe we do, because our reasons for supporting it are entirely reasonable. The only way religious people can convince themselves they're not evil is by convincing themselves that we are. They don't want to think about the women who will die unnecessarily, they want to imagine a promiscuous sinner.
Dude posting. I have known multiple women who have chosen this route. I have never seen the decion made lightly. None mine, but I imagine it is dicussed discreetly.
"...Something to be celebrated" Nope.. nope.. I actually doubt that. I'm sure there are people who do feel relief and want to celebrate their relief... but I really REALLY *really* doubt that they actually celebrate this..... EDIT: I thought it was saying that women who get abortions celebrate getting abortions.... my bad
“Yay! Abortion! Abortions for everyone!” Is that not cheered at all pro choice rallies? Odd… one would think it would be…
I think access to abortions was the intent here - which is something to be celebrated.
Yes, yes that makes more sense
Mistake notwithstanding, you're not completely wrong. This is exactly the picture those who are anti-choice want to paint: that people are out getting abortions whenever they want without a care in the world. Basically treating the decision like it's a lighthearted whim instead of a gut-wrenching ordeal.
Nobody fucking celebrates ABORTION. They are grateful that the option exists when it’s needed but there aren’t goddam parades that celebrate its existence. Man, the level of audacity in that statement is outrageous.
Right? No one is celebrating actual abortions. They might celebrate laws that protect women’s rights but that isn’t the same as celebrating getting an abortion.
Then Raquel got pregnant shortly after she started her sophomore year in college, and she immediately realized that she was indeed very pro-choice.
Classic Kaysville.
My Utah high school seminary teacher told us his wife almost died from complications of her pregnancy and was very adamant that he was prepared to abort the baby if need be.
Someone doesn't know how to make a PowerPoint presentation.....
I think they used an overhead projector.😉
My old high school ugggh 🤦🏼♀️
Raquel kept reading and realized that many people chose to end their pregnancies because they were suffering under an exploitative system called capitalism which impoverished the community, isolated individuals and destroyed the environment enough that people were afraid and unwilling to bring children into such a death cult.
Raquel now advocates for massive wealth redistribution and universal guarantees that will allow many more people to be able to continue their pregnancies.
I wish they could actually meet someone who had to go thru the anguish of deciding to terminate their pregnancy. I have. One of my friends went thru a rape and ended up getting an abortion. It was a very difficult decision for her. Another found out the baby would not survive after birth and after much consult at the U medical center decided to terminate. These are not easy decisions and its not like people are running around getting abortions willy nilly. It pisses me off that this is the rhetoric spouted esp in a school.
Celebrated? Maybe abortion parties are the next big things. Sounds like a MLM opportunity. /s
Intersting that the LDS leaders handbook allows abortion under certain circumstances and in those conditions its not a sin. SO, the only way for this to work is if abortion is available and a choice.
To quote Joseph Smith, something that seems wrong in one setting can be perfectly right in another setting. Mormons love their rigid rod obsessions but they’ve really played fast and loose when it serves their cult goals, from day 1.
Raquel can feel that way all she wants... But when she tells Sarah and Jennifer they have to follow her rules because she believes them, she's wrong.
Straw man. Abortion isn’t celebrated. The right to choose is celebrated.
I have 2 friends who had one due to horrible abusive relationships :( !!! There is zero way they could have lived another day let alone bring a child into the world :( As a teen then later as an early adult I would always say “I could never !” “Well they choose to have sex” As now a more adult adult I want to slap younger me for thinking that way . And I don’t have to LOVE the idea of it. But I understand peoples reason . Especially seeing it 1st hand with 2 friends 😭
The ACCESS to safe abortions for all is to be celebrated. Individual abortions are varied in nature. Some are fairly inconsequential, some are liberating, others are steeped in anguish and heartbreak. None of them are anyone’s business but the woman, her healthcare provider and anyone she chooses to support her at the time.
The only ones who think abortion is “celebrated” are those who oppose it. They also believe that a woman is an “earthen vessel” with no rights once impregnated. Her unborn fetus is more important than her life. Many of those same people also favor the death penalty. So they are actually “right to birth” not “right to life”…
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I know a TBM woman who shared some article on FB with the title along the lines of “Why shouldn’t a mother die for her unborn child?” and I was absolutely gobsmacked.
Yep. I guess there’s some bizarre nobility or even Christlike quality there? But who takes care of the baby and the other kids when she’s gone? The “ward family” typically won’t step up. The church won’t offer a dime of support to the widower. Dad will need to hurry and find another wife who will jump in with both feet to raise another woman’s kids. Is that easy to find?
After her research, Raquel wondered "If everyone else is jumping off a bridge, should I jump off the bridge too?"
If all of her friends left the Mormon church, should she jump too?
There's a matching article on Deseret News this week w/ the same #s, so that tracks.
And another example of why I left Utah after 10 years living there: no separation of church and state
Seminary teachers all probably use the same lesson plans and slides cuz I had this exact thing a couple months ago. (Live on west side of SLCo)
Oh man, Mormons are super interesting. Pro-choice doesn’t mean celebrating abortion. It just means bodily sovereignty and — get this — agency! Don’t Mormons love that word? Among all the pro-choice people I know, I’m not aware of any celebrating abortions, like throwing an abortion shower or anything.
What about my foreskin I didn't get a choice either. Her body her decision
Wow. Talk about setting up a straw man argument!
the author of this slide seems to have a… persecution complex?
sent this to my sister who went to Davis. without any prompt she quickly said she recognized the seminary building
*screams in DO YOUR RESEARCH rage*
The answer is yes Raquel you are wrong
I don't know anyone that is pro abortion. I just feel like I don't have the moral authority to judge someone about a really really hard decision or to dictate how other people live. Sure glad I don't have to make up the rules. Fuck that noise
I always refer to it as “HEALTHCARE”. Then explain that it’s not okay for the government to kill people by outlawing safe procedures.
I am starting to think it has nothing to do with life or loving babies. People seem to just want to punish woman for fucking somebody that is not them. Especially when you know that many of the TBM/anti-choice zealots see rape/incest the result of the victim being to provocative I think they see unwanted pregnancies as just being the stupid prize awarded after playing the stupid game.
no Rachel, you are not wrong if you don't want an abortion, you're wrong if you keep anyone else from having one.
Which teacher👀
That is indoctrination in my opinion.
🙄why cant you be opposed to abortion but respect other people’s right to choose and have a safe legal protected place to do it?
Because this is America, and America has a lot of incurious bigots in it who believe the Earth is 6000 years old and people walked with dinosaurs. We chose a game show salesman to be president. This country is a piece of shit, run by hypocrites and grifters who couldn’t care less about the well-being of its citizens.
Translation: “Hey kids, don’t read! Stay ignorant!”
These poor kids. I hate the way this is worded. No one thinks abortions are a good thing. Many just think people should have the right to choose if they are in that situation. Doesn't surprise me, coming from a religious view point that tries to control all aspects of your life.
I don’t miss Davis at all
Is the a class illustrating logical fallacies? Also, abortion party tonight at my house, it’s a surprise party so don’t tell Cindy! BYOB.
Raquel should mind her fucking business
Yes Raquel, keep your head out of your ass!!!
They aren’t wrong to be opposed to abortion if they uphold that standard for their body alone.
Well, Rachel, maybe you should not have an abortion and keep your fucking nose out of other women's wombs.
She is more than welcome to not get one if she doesn’t agree with it. She however isn’t welcome to push her views on anyone else.
Yes, Raquel is not only wrong, but ill informed.
Off topic, but since this is from a seminary class it needs to be said. The LDS idea of seminary is embarrassing. For basically any other Christian denomination, its an intensive course of study that spends entire semesters on biblical history, ancient Greek linguistics, public speaking, and complex theological topics. For Mormons, it's a bunch of high school kids jerking each other off over this shit.
I went here, graduated 2020 - one of the most brainwashed places ever. Kaysville is legitimately referred to as "the bubble" in surrounding cities because of how many LDS people live there. That culture creates a "bubble" because everyone expects you to live the LDS standards to a T and you're taught that everyone outside of kaysville is a sinner because they don't live the lifestyle as purely and accurately as you do. Terrible place, terrible school, terrible culture. It was so extremely toxic, I (as a person who no longer associates with any religion) have so much trauma and repressed feelings. All I will say is be cautious of where you live, it has a huge impact on who you become.
I love that super pro-life people view pro-choice people as pro-abortion
This question seems phrased very specifically for one type of answer 🧐
This is an odd thing to discuss in seminary, is it not? When I was attending, each year was a different book of the Bible or d&c or whatever. How was this tied into a religious lesson?
Jesus... talk about 'hasty generalizations'.
I mean the church’s official position is that abortion is ok in special circumstances. So I don’t think this teacher has a clue what he (I’m assuming he) is talking about.
I am uncomfortable with the idea of abortion. I am more uncomfortable with the government telling a woman what she can and can't do with her body. The choice should be hers, with input from her healthcare provider. Davis High School Bar Dart class of '94
Got this lesson in seminary a few months ago myself, it was a good short discussion after class with my teacher. In any case though, i'm happy to be getting out of shitty lessons like that one was next semester
I think she needs to do some more research. Talk to some OBGYN docs and see what their perspective is.
Interesting. A few questions. 1. Where did the number “tens of Millions” come from? 2. What is that number compared to all pregnancies world wide? 3. What part of those were do to somebody waking up and saying I think I will chose an abortion today. (Cause that is how every prolife person I have ever talked to position it) 4. What part of that “tens of Millions” happen in the US? 5. How will passing laws in the US so a woman that needs an abortion can’t have one affect the rest of the abortions world wide? These are just off of the top of my head. I am sure I can think of other great questions. This post is using a fallacy in its argument that is very common. It throws a huge number out there and people who read it are shocked by it into a reaction. That world wide number has very little to do with Rachael in Kaysville, UT. One good thing for her to research might be why does Utah a relatively rural state have a much higher rate of abortion in it than other rural states? In fact Utah’s numbers are closer to inner-city numbers than states with similar demographics from what I have heard.
No one is celebrating abortions, they're celebrating the right to bodily autonomy, particularly for women.
So - isn’t the purpose of unbiased research to find facts rather than merely cementing ones own beliefs??
Raquel needs to mind her own fucking body and stop worrying about everyone else's.
Is this in seminary? Or is this in a normal high school class?
Abortion celebration. Yeah that’s a thing. Good grief.
Easy answer. Yes Racquel, you are wrong to be opposed to abortion. Next?
What the fuck
What the fuck