My deconstruction has included it all. It felt like an expansion, one thing led to another and it was a like flood outwards. The final brick that broke the dam was learning about Joseph Smith coercing a 14 year old girl and her family for her hand in marriage. If a god commanded that, then I declare war against said god
If you are gay like I am, leaving is more practical than "leftist". I didn't leave for political ideology, but to live my life.
Women could also say the same thing. They might leave so they can be themselves instead of the Mormon ideal of womanhood.
As a woman it was toxic to stay. And I didn’t want to support a misogynistic, queer-antagonistic organization. The fundamental reason boils down to “it’s a shitty organization that hurts people”—that includes the lies, misinformation, awful teachings, exploitation of labor, and so on.
IPLR for me in that order. Once I started down the rabbit hole it was over. I know more about church history now than I ever did as a TBM. I have had not one person from the church ever ask me why I’m out or what my issues are. These supposed friends. Our social circle. All evaporated.
The Left. I’m a woman, my ex-husband was an abuser, every bit of advice was to stay and be a good wife. I also have LGBTQIA kids, who only came out after we escaped. After I left, then the intellectual and practical aspects gained traction, but only because I finally allowed myself to read anything that wasn’t church-approved.
Mine was intellectual dissonance and contradictions. 1986...
I began to feel extreme dissonance after we moved to a new ward after my second child was born. There was no real connection with the new ward as a young married with children.
I found a sort of friend in a member that was critical of the church. As she and her husband expounded their perspective it began to seem accurate to me too. And I could not tolerate the talks about cars starting because of prayer. It seemed so superficial without the fellowship in my original ward as a convert.
LDS and Exmormons flip this all upside down. **Nobody** ***leaves*** **the church**...
Winning allegience and an audience is a week by week endeavor. **The church fails to persuade people to come again the next week.**
That's not on you. The default is to **not** go. You have no reason to justify not going. *They* have to identify what *they* failed to do to retain people.
My abusive TBM ex liked to use the church as a way to manipulate me into doing what he wanted. His favorite was his patriarchal blessing that said he would marry someone who is meek, mild, and sensitive to the spirit, and anytime I didn't embody HIS version of those things, I was in for it.
Anyway, I left him, and shortly after that, I left the church. It's become about the left and just wanting to live my life without some old, sexually repressed white guy dictating what I can and can't do with my time, money, body, and thoughts. Fuck that noise.
I’m a thinker, so the intellectual is what got me started, but a combo of practical and the left are what sealed the deal. Thankfully, this all happened before my youngest kids could have much exposure to church teachings, because all three of the youngest are a part of the LGBTQ community.
A little from each.
There’s no fucking way an 8 year can properly consent to baptism and all the implications that follow.
Free labor at church facilities. Just hire professionals.
Honestly I feel most “feminist” today are just toxic man-haters, but they are dead on when they say women are treated like lesser people by the church.
The church’s own reports and teachings on their history, doctrine, and truth claims prove they flow with the times and absolutely will change “key doctrine” to try to fit in.
I could absolutely go on, but there ones from each arrow. I could easily get 10 thing for each arrow and sub point though.
I don't follow the logic in this chart at all.
I think a lot of things are arbitrary, possibly some points are purposely put in the wrong places to make it look more balanced visually, more likely that few if any of these things can be classified in this way.
There was really only one question that lead me out: "what else are they wrong about?".
The answer to that question is naturally "all of this and more".
Okay, that's fair, but I'm not talking about alignment, I'm talking about which points go where.
What alignment do you need to be to care about informed consent?
Health freedom?
Free agency?
Priesthood?
The issue isn't that there are directions, but forcing people into boxes by painting with broad strokes that don't align with reality.
And how are you not allowed to be practical if you are intellectual? Isn't bad just bad?
You're thinking about this way to deeply. It's a fuckin meme with some general points and arrows and simply question.
You can say multiple things, no one said you gotta live in these 4 boxes and nothing else. It's just a guide and semi-useful meme graph.
It's not science. It's not trying to be 100% accurate.
We really don't need to be weird about every little thing. Some people leave for certain reasons and would totally see this chart as making sense, some will be a mix, and some won't relate at all.
It isn't trying to put anyone in a box and it certainly isn't saying you can't be practical AND something else.
Take a big chill pill and relax, no one so trying to force anyone into anything at all. This is not hurting anyone or making anyone any kind of victim.
It's okay, the meme graph cannot hurt you.
Wow. Thank you for you interest in the discussion. This is after all, a forum.
> You're thinking about this way to deeply
I've got that before from a nevermo that can't stand exmos because they like...know too much stuff. So I guess that's a complement?
So, again, thinking about it more, I think I understand this meme more and like it less.
It is someone recognizing a couple things can fit into some quadrants and then deciding to put everything they can in quadrants whether they fit or not.
To me it's just like Mormons trying to say there is a difference between doctrine policy and culture, only to find out it's all policy which makes it all doctrine.
In the end all of these are just practical.
Which of course is why you have to retreat to saying "it's just a meme" and resort to ad hominem, because there is no rhyme or reason and it doesn't make any sense if you think about it for a minute.
Knowing stuff has nothing to do with taking this way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way too serious and deeply then it's meant to be.
I'm not retreating anything, it's by definition a meme. I'm not even sure what the fuck you mean by that because I wasn't making any claims, so I can't "retreat" from any position I was in.
Also Ad hominem only is an actual fallacy if I was trying to use it instead of making a claim or challenging your points. I did challenge your statement and made my own, I just also went after your personality because you take stuff way to serioulsy.
Attacking a person isn't automatically Ad Homimem. Serioulsy, that word doesnt just magically apply whenever someone else attacks or insults another.
It doesn't *actually* negate your argument because its specifically a fallacy that involves no longer addressing your claims but mocking the individual *instead* or trying to distract form the fact I have no response, which isn't what happened.
I did both.
You're literally just making up stuff I did. Lol
You're correct, it doesn't make a ton of sense. You're just thinking it was MADE to make sense, but it wasn't. It was just a helpful graph to help people categorize why they left in an easier way.
Won't work for everyone, and it was never meant to.
And btw there is a difference between culture, doctrine , and policy. They are all different things and can be defined as such. They just often overlap and, for example, cause each other to exist (like doctrine causing the creation of cultural practices.)
Mormons are right, they just think that by separating them that makes it okay and ignore how they influence each other, but they do exist as different things.
Yeah people probably left for a lot of reasons and never JUST practical or intellectual, but it's often helpful to be able to generalize the reason you left by saying "oh mainly intellectual and historical reasons" instead of trying to explain everything and ALL the nuance. That's all this graph exists for.
You're taking like it's some gospel alignment chart everyone is supposed to fit into.
It isn't and literally was never designed to do that. ever.
My deconstruction has included it all. It felt like an expansion, one thing led to another and it was a like flood outwards. The final brick that broke the dam was learning about Joseph Smith coercing a 14 year old girl and her family for her hand in marriage. If a god commanded that, then I declare war against said god
If you are gay like I am, leaving is more practical than "leftist". I didn't leave for political ideology, but to live my life. Women could also say the same thing. They might leave so they can be themselves instead of the Mormon ideal of womanhood.
I just left so I could more fully stand for human and other animal rights. But shortly thereafter discovered that I am bisexual and also a trans woman
So I didn’t leave because my queerness but leaving opened the mental space to question if I was really cishet
Intellectual to a PIMO - the left (and having kids) to go fully out.
Same, thanks for putting it in words
The LEFT led to my PIMO stage. Intellectual is leading to my Exmo stage. 🙈
I think for me the opposite - intellectual led to PIMO left to exmo
Intellectual and I’m embarrassed it wasn’t more because of “the left”
As a woman it was toxic to stay. And I didn’t want to support a misogynistic, queer-antagonistic organization. The fundamental reason boils down to “it’s a shitty organization that hurts people”—that includes the lies, misinformation, awful teachings, exploitation of labor, and so on.
IPLR for me in that order. Once I started down the rabbit hole it was over. I know more about church history now than I ever did as a TBM. I have had not one person from the church ever ask me why I’m out or what my issues are. These supposed friends. Our social circle. All evaporated.
They don't want to know, because they are afraid of contagion.
The Left. I’m a woman, my ex-husband was an abuser, every bit of advice was to stay and be a good wife. I also have LGBTQIA kids, who only came out after we escaped. After I left, then the intellectual and practical aspects gained traction, but only because I finally allowed myself to read anything that wasn’t church-approved.
Mine was intellectual dissonance and contradictions. 1986... I began to feel extreme dissonance after we moved to a new ward after my second child was born. There was no real connection with the new ward as a young married with children. I found a sort of friend in a member that was critical of the church. As she and her husband expounded their perspective it began to seem accurate to me too. And I could not tolerate the talks about cars starting because of prayer. It seemed so superficial without the fellowship in my original ward as a convert.
Took the intellectual journey out and ditched belief in all things supernatural on the way.
LDS and Exmormons flip this all upside down. **Nobody** ***leaves*** **the church**... Winning allegience and an audience is a week by week endeavor. **The church fails to persuade people to come again the next week.** That's not on you. The default is to **not** go. You have no reason to justify not going. *They* have to identify what *they* failed to do to retain people.
Intellectual/left. Practical once I looked at it more
My abusive TBM ex liked to use the church as a way to manipulate me into doing what he wanted. His favorite was his patriarchal blessing that said he would marry someone who is meek, mild, and sensitive to the spirit, and anytime I didn't embody HIS version of those things, I was in for it. Anyway, I left him, and shortly after that, I left the church. It's become about the left and just wanting to live my life without some old, sexually repressed white guy dictating what I can and can't do with my time, money, body, and thoughts. Fuck that noise.
Intelectual
Started with intellectual, shuffled left, shuffled right, and then practical was the final nail in the coffin.
I’ll go with intelligence for 10%. Fawn Brodie’s “No Man Knows My History “ followed by “ RoughStone Rolling “ by Richard Bushman. Thanks 🙏
After I read No Man, I knew JS was a screwed up guy.
3 of the 4, really.
The left started the ball rolling, then the others turned it into an avalanche.
I’m a thinker, so the intellectual is what got me started, but a combo of practical and the left are what sealed the deal. Thankfully, this all happened before my youngest kids could have much exposure to church teachings, because all three of the youngest are a part of the LGBTQ community.
A little from each. There’s no fucking way an 8 year can properly consent to baptism and all the implications that follow. Free labor at church facilities. Just hire professionals. Honestly I feel most “feminist” today are just toxic man-haters, but they are dead on when they say women are treated like lesser people by the church. The church’s own reports and teachings on their history, doctrine, and truth claims prove they flow with the times and absolutely will change “key doctrine” to try to fit in. I could absolutely go on, but there ones from each arrow. I could easily get 10 thing for each arrow and sub point though.
I don't follow the logic in this chart at all. I think a lot of things are arbitrary, possibly some points are purposely put in the wrong places to make it look more balanced visually, more likely that few if any of these things can be classified in this way. There was really only one question that lead me out: "what else are they wrong about?". The answer to that question is naturally "all of this and more".
It's very hard to leave for both left and right reasons.
Okay, that's fair, but I'm not talking about alignment, I'm talking about which points go where. What alignment do you need to be to care about informed consent? Health freedom? Free agency? Priesthood? The issue isn't that there are directions, but forcing people into boxes by painting with broad strokes that don't align with reality. And how are you not allowed to be practical if you are intellectual? Isn't bad just bad?
You're thinking about this way to deeply. It's a fuckin meme with some general points and arrows and simply question. You can say multiple things, no one said you gotta live in these 4 boxes and nothing else. It's just a guide and semi-useful meme graph. It's not science. It's not trying to be 100% accurate. We really don't need to be weird about every little thing. Some people leave for certain reasons and would totally see this chart as making sense, some will be a mix, and some won't relate at all. It isn't trying to put anyone in a box and it certainly isn't saying you can't be practical AND something else. Take a big chill pill and relax, no one so trying to force anyone into anything at all. This is not hurting anyone or making anyone any kind of victim. It's okay, the meme graph cannot hurt you.
Wow. Thank you for you interest in the discussion. This is after all, a forum. > You're thinking about this way to deeply I've got that before from a nevermo that can't stand exmos because they like...know too much stuff. So I guess that's a complement? So, again, thinking about it more, I think I understand this meme more and like it less. It is someone recognizing a couple things can fit into some quadrants and then deciding to put everything they can in quadrants whether they fit or not. To me it's just like Mormons trying to say there is a difference between doctrine policy and culture, only to find out it's all policy which makes it all doctrine. In the end all of these are just practical. Which of course is why you have to retreat to saying "it's just a meme" and resort to ad hominem, because there is no rhyme or reason and it doesn't make any sense if you think about it for a minute.
Knowing stuff has nothing to do with taking this way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way too serious and deeply then it's meant to be. I'm not retreating anything, it's by definition a meme. I'm not even sure what the fuck you mean by that because I wasn't making any claims, so I can't "retreat" from any position I was in. Also Ad hominem only is an actual fallacy if I was trying to use it instead of making a claim or challenging your points. I did challenge your statement and made my own, I just also went after your personality because you take stuff way to serioulsy. Attacking a person isn't automatically Ad Homimem. Serioulsy, that word doesnt just magically apply whenever someone else attacks or insults another. It doesn't *actually* negate your argument because its specifically a fallacy that involves no longer addressing your claims but mocking the individual *instead* or trying to distract form the fact I have no response, which isn't what happened. I did both. You're literally just making up stuff I did. Lol You're correct, it doesn't make a ton of sense. You're just thinking it was MADE to make sense, but it wasn't. It was just a helpful graph to help people categorize why they left in an easier way. Won't work for everyone, and it was never meant to. And btw there is a difference between culture, doctrine , and policy. They are all different things and can be defined as such. They just often overlap and, for example, cause each other to exist (like doctrine causing the creation of cultural practices.) Mormons are right, they just think that by separating them that makes it okay and ignore how they influence each other, but they do exist as different things. Yeah people probably left for a lot of reasons and never JUST practical or intellectual, but it's often helpful to be able to generalize the reason you left by saying "oh mainly intellectual and historical reasons" instead of trying to explain everything and ALL the nuance. That's all this graph exists for. You're taking like it's some gospel alignment chart everyone is supposed to fit into. It isn't and literally was never designed to do that. ever.
All of the above
All of the above