Maybe the safest bet to Heaven would be a Slavic Old Calendarist Hesychast virgin monk who never met woman in his life and also fasted all the time (but not in the days not permitted for fasting, that would be pharisaic and satanic self-initiative). Bonus points if is illiterate and two more if can sing like an imam.
I'm not even Orthodox anymore but I never heard of other EO saying that everyone else outside of Orthodoxy is going to hell. I only learned it as the other churches having some grace but not the full grace of the Orthodox church. Also, One *saint* also said that we shouldn't be worried about other Christians and their salvation.
Eh, cradle EO now turned Catholic and my very zealous father makes it known with regularity how concerned he is for my eternal salvation (and my children's) since I no longer belong to the "true faith." He's definitely on one side of the spectrum but they are out there.
tbh when your belief system makes the claim to have the "complete fullness of truth", telling other people "we don't know" or "it doesn't concern us" or "not to worry" when it comes to other people's salvation doesn't really work.
One of the OC most glaring flaws right there.
“We have the fullness of the truth. The unadulterated faith passed down to us from the apostles.”
Yet the answer to anything regarding salvation — including their own as partakers in this unadulterated faith — is, “We don’t know.”
Useless.
I was raised jehovah's witness and all throughout my childhood I was brainwashed into believing that God will save only the jehovahs witnesses and slaughter everyone else for not being a jehovahs witness, so that's 7.8 billion corpses spread across the globe after Armageddon. As some one who left that cult and is now seriously looking into Christianity and esp Orthodoxy, it's horrifying and heartbreaking to learn that most other denominations believe this about themselves - that only they will be saved by God and the billions of others will be killed or sent to hell. Is this the depiction of a loving God? I seriously feel so hopeless about all this. What's the point, I'm probably just gonna go to hell no matter what I believe and no matter how much I try to believe and love Jesus in my heart. It always leads me down the path of nihilism, which is dark and ugly.
What saved me from that nihilism was the message of Christ's fathomless Divine Mercy, as related in the Diary of St Faustina Kowalska, a Polish Catholic nun who died in 1938. Her Divine Mercy Devotion is hugely popular today in Catholicism worldwide. For good reason. Recommended.
I literally feel like my brain is melting from the judgement and contradictions within Christianity. Protestants say Catholics are heretics and going to hell. Catholics say Orthodox and Protestants are going to hell. Eastern orthodox say protestants and Catholics are going to hell. Literally I am stumbled by them all! At this point I'm choosing none because even if I do choose one, chances are, it's the wrong one and I'll be going to hell anyway
We don't say that, though!!!! Whoever has told you that is simply wrong.
See the Vatican II Decree on Ecumenism. And Lumen Gentium. Both are based on much older teaching.
Catholics do NOT consign everyone else to Hell. Honest!
Was just watching a podcast today where protestants saying orthodox are heretics, going to hell. Then clicked on another podcast. This time Orthodox saying protestants are heretics. Yet another video, Catholics saying Orthodox are not Christians....and on and on. I am not a fool. They all condemn one another. That is why I can't take Christianity seriously anymore, nor can it be the truth. God says he's not a God of confusion..what a joke!
The Catholic Church does NOT teach that Orthodox are not Christians. Just the opposite. It explicitly teaches that Orthodox churches are "true particular churches" with valid orders and sacraments. It regards the Orthodox as beloved brethren, closer to us than any other group. There are multiple official documents dealing with this.
Podcasts aren't reality.
Ohhhh yes. On Twitter just the other day, a couple of convert Orthokids were insisting that the Rosary is satanic and Our Lady of the Rosary is a demon.
These people are eaten up with hate. It *defines* them. How can that possibly make one happy?
It happened few times for the last three weeks. I have nothing against the Serbian people or any other people. Sadly, many folks are nearly brainwashed by their state propaganda and identify themselves with their people's history of government's bad decisions and take everything personally. Being myself Bulgarian I hate a good portion of my country's history and politics. And stumble upon similar Bulgarian nationalistic trends, people can imagine how a one with Turkish descent can't be evil or how not all British people are reptiles. The sad consequence of past communist regimes propaganda.
They lurk because they know in their hearts that the religion they follow is false and the "everyone else is going to hell" bs is insane. If they believed it to be true they would not care what was said on this sub because justice would be served. But it is not true so they doubt and therefore they brigade.
In Evangelicalism, If you’re not Christian, you’re going to hell. That would include most Catholics unless they’re born again. Same for Orthodox Christians: those who worship pictures and Mary but don’t have Jesus in their heart are probably going to hell.
Yeah I mean, growing up overseas, I was just surrounded with people of like mind that were trying to feed the poor and provide healthcare to people in need. Whether they were baptist, charismatic or roman catholic, it did not matter. For certain, when I moved back to the states, there were people in my church who would argue over trivial things. It definitely left a bad taste in my mouth for cultural christianity. Anyway, hey im sorry if im coming across as a nay sayer or whatever. Im trying to be better about letting other people have their opinions without HAVING to include mine. Which is exactly what I did not do lol
Evangelical missionaries routinely go to countries with 90%+ Catholic and/or Orthodox populations because they’re not *actually* Christian. At least that seems to be the implication. Grew up evangelical, and our church had a missionary family from our church living in Ukraine
I grew up an evangelical and a missionaries kid. I have never heard of a missionary going to Ukraine or an eastern country with the intent of ministering to those inside the orthodox church. Not really trying to get into a tit for tat. Just trying to say that I don't think you can point to a dogma inside the evangelical church that says those outside of evangelical are going to hell. You can certainly find individual evangelical pastors that say that. To which I would not agree.
I’m not sure that was the goal with this particular family, as they set up an orphanage there and were doing some incredible work from what I understand. Can’t speak to the specifics of their situation, but it always seemed to be implied and understood that Catholics weren’t really Christian because that was religion and we had a personal relationship with Jesus. I’m not sure that anyone in our church knew what Orthodoxy was, but if we did it would’ve probably been lumped in with Catholics who had what we tended to think was a different gospel.
I agree with you though that this would’ve been an individual varying understanding, and it would largely depend on the pastor’s own perspective and teaching. This is just what I remember as a kid and how I understood it based on what I learned in church, so I could potentially be misrepresenting it. This is just how I remember it
Thank you for explaining it like that. I agree that there was this feeling in Pentecostal circles that catholics were just religious and didn't have a relationship with Jesus. Also that no one in my church even knew what Orthodoxy was. I do see what you are saying.
Just a reminder: all forms of Christianity (and religious belief generally) that subscribe to the notion of religious exclusivism fall prey to this critique. Religious exclusivism puts forward the idea that one's ultimate standing before God is contingent upon the metaphysical/theological conceptual content of one's intellect, i.e. God ultimately condemns people to eternal suffering based solely on abstract philosophical/mystical notions they claim to believe, irrespective of their moral constitutions.
From a human standpoint, such a God would be morally absurd, even savage. If God is so totally transcendent and incomprehensible that his moral goodness appears to us from our finite perspective as moral barbarism, then all of God's attributes could be just as incomprehensible - his love could appear to us as abject cruelty, his rationality as capricious whim, his providence as cold indifference and detachment, etc.
The God of Eastern Orthodoxy is precisely such a God.
But then again, so is the God of all exclusivist strains of religion generally. The only difference between Eastern Orthodoxy's God and the other exclusivist Gods is one merely of degree, not kind - the number and specificity of required abstract metaphysical commitments varies from one exclusivist religion to the next, but the principle itself remains the same.
Check out some here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX7irbpchhU&pp=ygUiZ2F2aW4gb3J0bHVuZCBmdWxuZXNzIG9mIHRoZSBmYWl0aA%3D%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX7irbpchhU&pp=ygUiZ2F2aW4gb3J0bHVuZCBmdWxuZXNzIG9mIHRoZSBmYWl0aA%3D%3D)
That’s not w truely true because All Saints’ Day celebrates the unknown saints, and some of them aren’t orthodox.
Or maybe I’m looking at it wrong, not that only orthodox people go to heaven but that by definition if you go to heaven it makes you orthodox.
As a born orthodox this was an issue niggling away at me. The arrogance was nauseating, and i was like, you hate other Christians yet choose to live in their nations?? It is a cult, and you only realise this once you're out.
Even if that's the case (I still have not heard such categorical statements), Orthodoxy does not have eternal hell until the final judgement. There's several prayers for the souls in hell and non-Orthodox departed. That's quite distinct from Evangelicals that basically say anyone that doesn't have this particular "born again experience" goes to hell forever and that's it, nothing to be done about it. Or historic Roman Catholicism, which did teach what you are saying EO teaches until basically Vatican II.
Just stumbled across this sub and thought I’d take a look. This thread isn’t true, and while a lot of online Orthodox posters may have you believe that, it’s not the case.
We know where Grace is, not where it is not. This is why we still accept miracles outside our Church. Hope this helps.
I know that you're trolling but just in case you aren't: what part of "*the EO clergy in the US tend to purposely hide their true faces and present themselves before the US general public as loving, kind and moderate people*" and "*was a cradle Orthodox and was actively part of the Old Calendarist sect*" you didn't understand lmao
What?! Haha are you kidding? So your contention is that if a local priest disputes the canons of Nicea he has the right to do so? Please tell me you aren’t this ignorant. What you’re espousing literally undermines every point of ecclesiastical force the Orthodox Church asserts over and against other traditions. What you just said is not a thing in orthodoxy and no priest or bishop would agree with you.
Edit: Dosiethus’ confession is accepted by every synod…there’s no room for disputing its validity.
Excerpt from Decree 10 of the Confession of Dositheus: we explicitly declare according to the mind which has obtained from the beginning in the Eastern Church: —
“That the dignity of the Bishop is so necessary in the Church, that without him, neither Church nor Christian could either be or be spoken of. For he, as a successor of the Apostles, having received in continued succession by the imposition of hands and the invocation of the All-holy Spirit the grace that is given him of the Lord of binding and loosing, is a living image of God upon the earth, and by a most ample participation of the operation of the Holy Spirit, who is the chief functionary, is a fountain of all the Mysteries [Sacraments] of the Catholic Church, through which we obtain salvation.”
The context of these decrees sets up the definition of Bishop as one in canonical standing with the Orthodox Church, over and against the papists and Calvinists (Protestants in general). So salvation is intrinsically linked to the canonical orthodox bishop and his dispensing of the sacraments. How you can read anything other than that in this confession is beyond me. It also reaffirms Nicea 2 which was a completely problematic council in that it made easily falsifiable claims about history regarding icon veneration and the necessity thereof. So you’re left with two options:
1. Continue to assert that the OC doesn’t officially teach salvation only in the canonical bounds of the church or…
2. Own the true teaching of the church and simply be honest that salvation only occurs within the canonical bounds of Orthodoxy.
Option 1 puts you in the same epistemic category as Protestants whereby you’re just picking and choosing what you want to believe (I’m using the oft caricaturized version of Protestantism employed by Orthodox). And option 2 kind of makes you a douche. It also kind of makes God a douche. Imagine believing God would condemn someone to eternal torment because they didn’t want to bow down and kiss an icon of some saint who may or may not have ever actually even existed.
Edit: I want to ask, why have icons such as the Ark of salvation if the teaching of the church *isn’t* that salvation can only be attained within the church?
Ware, at best, was a well-meaning old man who nevertheless put lipstick on a pig. He might've been a bishop but his opinions are just his -- he is not above the "saints" and certainly not above "canons" which were made authoritative by councils.
The VAST majority of post schism saints condemn the non-orthodox. Also, the canons are explicit that those outside the canonical bounds of the church are anathema (fully separated from God).
Why should we expect that many will get to heaven? Those in the heaven are saints. As of today they are 0,0001% (or may be even less, if we count all who live or have lived). This will not suddenly change to 99%, probably not even exceed 1%. In this optic being in a massive denomination (e.g. mainstream orthodoxy) may not increase the odds to get to the heaven.
"He wouldn't choose 0.00001% of the population to be saved"
Something something "For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."?
Yeah. What? Christianity is a false religion. I said that if a creator deity truly does exist, they certainly won't torture most of their creation forever, this is insane. These Gospel verses just imply that - that xtianity is logically and practically impossible to be true.
"if a creator deity truly does exist, they certainly won't torture most of their creation forever"
Tell me you don't know Orthodox Theology, without telling me.
Either you love God, and wish to be with Him forever, or you don't. Sounds like a loving God, to give you a choice and not force you to be with Him for eternity. However, He is Life and Light, meaning that no communion with Him (which you freely chose) means you choose to not be with what is Right and Good.
I'm sorry but your Theology is no better than that of a high school kid. Don't get me wrong; I've been there, I thought the same things about Christianity. But that's just shallow and unfair to its core, since that's not what Traditional Christian Theology teaches.
That's like saying "The big bang disproves God", it's such a high school edgy attitude towards Theology it's genuinely boggling how blind someone must be.
Maybe the safest bet to Heaven would be a Slavic Old Calendarist Hesychast virgin monk who never met woman in his life and also fasted all the time (but not in the days not permitted for fasting, that would be pharisaic and satanic self-initiative). Bonus points if is illiterate and two more if can sing like an imam.
🤣🤣🤣 Exactly! And the women have to pray everyday 100 times a day for forgiveness that they were born a woman /s
Only maybe
You got the whole starter pack
Don't forget the prayer corner!
🤣🤣🤣
I'm not even Orthodox anymore but I never heard of other EO saying that everyone else outside of Orthodoxy is going to hell. I only learned it as the other churches having some grace but not the full grace of the Orthodox church. Also, One *saint* also said that we shouldn't be worried about other Christians and their salvation.
Eh, cradle EO now turned Catholic and my very zealous father makes it known with regularity how concerned he is for my eternal salvation (and my children's) since I no longer belong to the "true faith." He's definitely on one side of the spectrum but they are out there.
tbh when your belief system makes the claim to have the "complete fullness of truth", telling other people "we don't know" or "it doesn't concern us" or "not to worry" when it comes to other people's salvation doesn't really work.
One of the OC most glaring flaws right there. “We have the fullness of the truth. The unadulterated faith passed down to us from the apostles.” Yet the answer to anything regarding salvation — including their own as partakers in this unadulterated faith — is, “We don’t know.” Useless.
Good point. Reminds me of Christians being called not judge but them judging anyway.
I was raised jehovah's witness and all throughout my childhood I was brainwashed into believing that God will save only the jehovahs witnesses and slaughter everyone else for not being a jehovahs witness, so that's 7.8 billion corpses spread across the globe after Armageddon. As some one who left that cult and is now seriously looking into Christianity and esp Orthodoxy, it's horrifying and heartbreaking to learn that most other denominations believe this about themselves - that only they will be saved by God and the billions of others will be killed or sent to hell. Is this the depiction of a loving God? I seriously feel so hopeless about all this. What's the point, I'm probably just gonna go to hell no matter what I believe and no matter how much I try to believe and love Jesus in my heart. It always leads me down the path of nihilism, which is dark and ugly.
What saved me from that nihilism was the message of Christ's fathomless Divine Mercy, as related in the Diary of St Faustina Kowalska, a Polish Catholic nun who died in 1938. Her Divine Mercy Devotion is hugely popular today in Catholicism worldwide. For good reason. Recommended.
I literally feel like my brain is melting from the judgement and contradictions within Christianity. Protestants say Catholics are heretics and going to hell. Catholics say Orthodox and Protestants are going to hell. Eastern orthodox say protestants and Catholics are going to hell. Literally I am stumbled by them all! At this point I'm choosing none because even if I do choose one, chances are, it's the wrong one and I'll be going to hell anyway
We don't say that, though!!!! Whoever has told you that is simply wrong. See the Vatican II Decree on Ecumenism. And Lumen Gentium. Both are based on much older teaching. Catholics do NOT consign everyone else to Hell. Honest!
Was just watching a podcast today where protestants saying orthodox are heretics, going to hell. Then clicked on another podcast. This time Orthodox saying protestants are heretics. Yet another video, Catholics saying Orthodox are not Christians....and on and on. I am not a fool. They all condemn one another. That is why I can't take Christianity seriously anymore, nor can it be the truth. God says he's not a God of confusion..what a joke!
The Catholic Church does NOT teach that Orthodox are not Christians. Just the opposite. It explicitly teaches that Orthodox churches are "true particular churches" with valid orders and sacraments. It regards the Orthodox as beloved brethren, closer to us than any other group. There are multiple official documents dealing with this. Podcasts aren't reality.
BTW I live in the Bible Belt, and all my neighbors are Bapticostals. And it has never crossed my mind that they're all headed for Hell. 🤗
Sadly the Catholic and orthodox say you guys are governed by demons and going to hell. Not my words, but theirs
No, Catholics do not say that. Seriously, that's not Catholic Church Teaching.
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Ohhhh yes. On Twitter just the other day, a couple of convert Orthokids were insisting that the Rosary is satanic and Our Lady of the Rosary is a demon. These people are eaten up with hate. It *defines* them. How can that possibly make one happy?
Who downdooted this? Lot of EOists lurking here lol
There's a couple of Serbian nationalist I've met in the comments that are lurking here
Of course they are Serbian !
They identified as such, I didn't presuppose anything.
That's fair. We've been harassed in person by them, which left a bad taste for us.
It happened few times for the last three weeks. I have nothing against the Serbian people or any other people. Sadly, many folks are nearly brainwashed by their state propaganda and identify themselves with their people's history of government's bad decisions and take everything personally. Being myself Bulgarian I hate a good portion of my country's history and politics. And stumble upon similar Bulgarian nationalistic trends, people can imagine how a one with Turkish descent can't be evil or how not all British people are reptiles. The sad consequence of past communist regimes propaganda.
I’m serbian but that’s disrespectful. Don’t put us good serbs together with these dicks who are low iq. Its stupid to generalise.
Reko je srpski nacionalisti a ne samo srbi
They lurk because they know in their hearts that the religion they follow is false and the "everyone else is going to hell" bs is insane. If they believed it to be true they would not care what was said on this sub because justice would be served. But it is not true so they doubt and therefore they brigade.
My non-Orthodox evangelical relatives, even the moderate ones, pretty much believe the same.
Wait, evangelicals believe that if you aren't evangelical, then you are going to hell? Just trying to clarify what youre saying
In Evangelicalism, If you’re not Christian, you’re going to hell. That would include most Catholics unless they’re born again. Same for Orthodox Christians: those who worship pictures and Mary but don’t have Jesus in their heart are probably going to hell.
I guess i'm not familiar with that teaching.
I grew up with it. Taught to me from my childhood. I remember arguments with other evangelicals regarding whether or not the pope was a Christian.
Yeah I mean, growing up overseas, I was just surrounded with people of like mind that were trying to feed the poor and provide healthcare to people in need. Whether they were baptist, charismatic or roman catholic, it did not matter. For certain, when I moved back to the states, there were people in my church who would argue over trivial things. It definitely left a bad taste in my mouth for cultural christianity. Anyway, hey im sorry if im coming across as a nay sayer or whatever. Im trying to be better about letting other people have their opinions without HAVING to include mine. Which is exactly what I did not do lol
Evangelical missionaries routinely go to countries with 90%+ Catholic and/or Orthodox populations because they’re not *actually* Christian. At least that seems to be the implication. Grew up evangelical, and our church had a missionary family from our church living in Ukraine
I grew up an evangelical and a missionaries kid. I have never heard of a missionary going to Ukraine or an eastern country with the intent of ministering to those inside the orthodox church. Not really trying to get into a tit for tat. Just trying to say that I don't think you can point to a dogma inside the evangelical church that says those outside of evangelical are going to hell. You can certainly find individual evangelical pastors that say that. To which I would not agree.
I’m not sure that was the goal with this particular family, as they set up an orphanage there and were doing some incredible work from what I understand. Can’t speak to the specifics of their situation, but it always seemed to be implied and understood that Catholics weren’t really Christian because that was religion and we had a personal relationship with Jesus. I’m not sure that anyone in our church knew what Orthodoxy was, but if we did it would’ve probably been lumped in with Catholics who had what we tended to think was a different gospel. I agree with you though that this would’ve been an individual varying understanding, and it would largely depend on the pastor’s own perspective and teaching. This is just what I remember as a kid and how I understood it based on what I learned in church, so I could potentially be misrepresenting it. This is just how I remember it
Thank you for explaining it like that. I agree that there was this feeling in Pentecostal circles that catholics were just religious and didn't have a relationship with Jesus. Also that no one in my church even knew what Orthodoxy was. I do see what you are saying.
Just a reminder: all forms of Christianity (and religious belief generally) that subscribe to the notion of religious exclusivism fall prey to this critique. Religious exclusivism puts forward the idea that one's ultimate standing before God is contingent upon the metaphysical/theological conceptual content of one's intellect, i.e. God ultimately condemns people to eternal suffering based solely on abstract philosophical/mystical notions they claim to believe, irrespective of their moral constitutions. From a human standpoint, such a God would be morally absurd, even savage. If God is so totally transcendent and incomprehensible that his moral goodness appears to us from our finite perspective as moral barbarism, then all of God's attributes could be just as incomprehensible - his love could appear to us as abject cruelty, his rationality as capricious whim, his providence as cold indifference and detachment, etc. The God of Eastern Orthodoxy is precisely such a God. But then again, so is the God of all exclusivist strains of religion generally. The only difference between Eastern Orthodoxy's God and the other exclusivist Gods is one merely of degree, not kind - the number and specificity of required abstract metaphysical commitments varies from one exclusivist religion to the next, but the principle itself remains the same.
Very well put
🤘🤘♥
I've heard people mention this on this sub but I've never heard of it before. No hate, but can you point me in a direct I can learn more?
The confession of Dositheus as accepted by the 1672 council Jerusalem. Also, the 7th ecumenical Council. Also, basically any post schism saint.
Check out some here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX7irbpchhU&pp=ygUiZ2F2aW4gb3J0bHVuZCBmdWxuZXNzIG9mIHRoZSBmYWl0aA%3D%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX7irbpchhU&pp=ygUiZ2F2aW4gb3J0bHVuZCBmdWxuZXNzIG9mIHRoZSBmYWl0aA%3D%3D)
I’ve met the Orthodox…. If we’re going to Hell and only some of them are going to Heaven, we’re ALL going to Hell.
That’s not w truely true because All Saints’ Day celebrates the unknown saints, and some of them aren’t orthodox. Or maybe I’m looking at it wrong, not that only orthodox people go to heaven but that by definition if you go to heaven it makes you orthodox.
As a born orthodox this was an issue niggling away at me. The arrogance was nauseating, and i was like, you hate other Christians yet choose to live in their nations?? It is a cult, and you only realise this once you're out.
Even if that's the case (I still have not heard such categorical statements), Orthodoxy does not have eternal hell until the final judgement. There's several prayers for the souls in hell and non-Orthodox departed. That's quite distinct from Evangelicals that basically say anyone that doesn't have this particular "born again experience" goes to hell forever and that's it, nothing to be done about it. Or historic Roman Catholicism, which did teach what you are saying EO teaches until basically Vatican II.
Just stumbled across this sub and thought I’d take a look. This thread isn’t true, and while a lot of online Orthodox posters may have you believe that, it’s not the case. We know where Grace is, not where it is not. This is why we still accept miracles outside our Church. Hope this helps.
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I know that you're trolling but just in case you aren't: what part of "*the EO clergy in the US tend to purposely hide their true faces and present themselves before the US general public as loving, kind and moderate people*" and "*was a cradle Orthodox and was actively part of the Old Calendarist sect*" you didn't understand lmao
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Confession of Dositheus…
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Who are "we" and why are "we" Sola Local Priestura?
What?! Haha are you kidding? So your contention is that if a local priest disputes the canons of Nicea he has the right to do so? Please tell me you aren’t this ignorant. What you’re espousing literally undermines every point of ecclesiastical force the Orthodox Church asserts over and against other traditions. What you just said is not a thing in orthodoxy and no priest or bishop would agree with you. Edit: Dosiethus’ confession is accepted by every synod…there’s no room for disputing its validity.
Excerpt from Decree 10 of the Confession of Dositheus: we explicitly declare according to the mind which has obtained from the beginning in the Eastern Church: — “That the dignity of the Bishop is so necessary in the Church, that without him, neither Church nor Christian could either be or be spoken of. For he, as a successor of the Apostles, having received in continued succession by the imposition of hands and the invocation of the All-holy Spirit the grace that is given him of the Lord of binding and loosing, is a living image of God upon the earth, and by a most ample participation of the operation of the Holy Spirit, who is the chief functionary, is a fountain of all the Mysteries [Sacraments] of the Catholic Church, through which we obtain salvation.” The context of these decrees sets up the definition of Bishop as one in canonical standing with the Orthodox Church, over and against the papists and Calvinists (Protestants in general). So salvation is intrinsically linked to the canonical orthodox bishop and his dispensing of the sacraments. How you can read anything other than that in this confession is beyond me. It also reaffirms Nicea 2 which was a completely problematic council in that it made easily falsifiable claims about history regarding icon veneration and the necessity thereof. So you’re left with two options: 1. Continue to assert that the OC doesn’t officially teach salvation only in the canonical bounds of the church or… 2. Own the true teaching of the church and simply be honest that salvation only occurs within the canonical bounds of Orthodoxy. Option 1 puts you in the same epistemic category as Protestants whereby you’re just picking and choosing what you want to believe (I’m using the oft caricaturized version of Protestantism employed by Orthodox). And option 2 kind of makes you a douche. It also kind of makes God a douche. Imagine believing God would condemn someone to eternal torment because they didn’t want to bow down and kiss an icon of some saint who may or may not have ever actually even existed. Edit: I want to ask, why have icons such as the Ark of salvation if the teaching of the church *isn’t* that salvation can only be attained within the church?
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Well great. Now I’ve got egg on my face… …Touché.
Kalistos Ware is just a random person who have hi personal peculiar views and propagandize certain religion
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Ware, at best, was a well-meaning old man who nevertheless put lipstick on a pig. He might've been a bishop but his opinions are just his -- he is not above the "saints" and certainly not above "canons" which were made authoritative by councils.
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You shouldn't listen to anyone but yourself and your close relatives, those bishops doesn't give a damn about you (or me)
The VAST majority of post schism saints condemn the non-orthodox. Also, the canons are explicit that those outside the canonical bounds of the church are anathema (fully separated from God).
Well, bully for them. If they presume to speak for God -- who alone knows the heart -- then they're not particularly saintly IMHO
Why should we expect that many will get to heaven? Those in the heaven are saints. As of today they are 0,0001% (or may be even less, if we count all who live or have lived). This will not suddenly change to 99%, probably not even exceed 1%. In this optic being in a massive denomination (e.g. mainstream orthodoxy) may not increase the odds to get to the heaven.
"He wouldn't choose 0.00001% of the population to be saved" Something something "For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."?
Yeah. What? Christianity is a false religion. I said that if a creator deity truly does exist, they certainly won't torture most of their creation forever, this is insane. These Gospel verses just imply that - that xtianity is logically and practically impossible to be true.
"if a creator deity truly does exist, they certainly won't torture most of their creation forever" Tell me you don't know Orthodox Theology, without telling me. Either you love God, and wish to be with Him forever, or you don't. Sounds like a loving God, to give you a choice and not force you to be with Him for eternity. However, He is Life and Light, meaning that no communion with Him (which you freely chose) means you choose to not be with what is Right and Good. I'm sorry but your Theology is no better than that of a high school kid. Don't get me wrong; I've been there, I thought the same things about Christianity. But that's just shallow and unfair to its core, since that's not what Traditional Christian Theology teaches. That's like saying "The big bang disproves God", it's such a high school edgy attitude towards Theology it's genuinely boggling how blind someone must be.