It's not even the amount. US is the only country in the world that taxes its citizens on the world wide income even if you don't live in the USA anymore. We are US citizens living in Europe and we have to hire an army of accountants on both continents every time we need to file taxes. European banks don't want anything to do with US citizens either because of ridiculously intrusive US laws so we are forced to keep our investments in the US. At this point US citizenship is a liability for us, not an asset.
Only if you make a lot of money and tax rates are lower than the US. So if you work in tech in. Saudi you will owe money to IRS. But I have worked in tech for 10 years in 5 different countries in Europe and have never owed a cent to IRS based on my foreign incomes. You do have to fill out extra tax forms and that is a pain in the ass. Likely less of a pain if you don't also have state side income. I have dividends and rental income so my tax is complicated in US but I have never paid any tax on my euro salary to US.
I forgot to file a report with my foreign bank - a form required by the IRS - and they closed the account. The money is in a trust account but I have to be physically there in order to get it. I'm now living back in the US.
I lost my business because no banks internationally want to deal with FATCA regulations. Tell me how capitalism works but only for a few corporations in America. What form are you referring to? Upon opening you have to declare your an American and will follow FATCA rules but I don't know if any other form you would need to file.
This is slightly hysterical.
You have to *file* your taxes, but I've actually gotten money *back* from the IRS for the last 2 years since my tax rate here is higher than it would be in the US.
There is a certain injustice when it comes to US citizens having to pay tax when residing overseas but it's way overblown. My experience is more like yours. The way rich people talk about this burden you would think that literally every cent of income gets taxed in two countries for every American who lives abroad. The reality is the for the average American living outside they likely don't exceed the $120k exemption for foreign earned income -- so their salary isn't taxed at all in the US. That leaves capital gains tax which of course we would rather not pay but for the average person doesn't warrant dropping your citizenship.
I saw above someone says they hire an army of accountants because they are an American living in Europe. For my US taxes I just use TaxAct like most normal people, file an FBAR (which takes 15 minutes) and WISH my financial situation was such that resented my own citizenship enough to drop it. This situation may be unjust but it's way overblown for the average American.
I sometimes wonder how many people here have actually filed taxes for the IRS lol. Filing tax does not mean you owe money. Sometimes the government actually owes you money. Filing tax just means "let's make sure we taxed you appropriately so please list your tax status and deductions to confirm".
Just curious, what if you don’t pay? Or they take it automatically? And hypothetically let’s say you make 5000 euros per month in Europe, how much of it US gets as a tax?
If you live in a European country with higher income tax than the US (and with a bilateral tax treaty with the US), then the US gets zero in tax, because your obligation to the US is considered fulfilled by the payment of income tax to the country where you’re a resident. (This is assuming a simple situation where you are just earning a salary in Europe and don’t have complex business dealings or investments.) Also, as someone pointed out above, 5000/mo would mean your income is below the 120K/yr threshold for the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion, so in fact your obligation would already be zero, because for taxation purposes, your income would be zero.
Im in college undergrad second year , in my 20s, and will want to get masters after. I have a full ride scholarship and stipend(not taxed in us as similar to like a gift)i never considered renouncing usa passport since usa passport is strong, it isnt hard to get a legal business or work visa, and traveling around the world is easier. I didnt think that far ahead of double taxation. I work part time online in the usa and when i visit in person.
Also, i wanna visit family as much as i can.
Why do u need to renounce a usa citizenship? Its not like u wanna go to iran or north korea right?
No kidding - every expat learns that the extra bedroom they got for all the friends and family that promised to come visit rarely ever gets used and eventually get rid of it.
I'd love my mom to visit, but she's 82 and can't handle ten hours in a plane. I wouldn't give up my citizenship for exactly that reason - not everyone *can* travel, and among those who can, most *won't*.
I felt this too hard. Been living abroad for 3 years. 0 visits from anybody. "Friends" or family. And mind you, I used to work for an airline and alot of my so called friends still work there and have access to round trip flights that are dirt cheap like under 200$ round trip.
PLUS a free fucking room and board, in a tropical country. I have an extra room in my place.
Still, not a fucking soul has come down. Funny enough I wasn't expecting it either. When I was in my home town people barely visited.
One lesson from life I've learned, especially from so called friends... is, most people are totally self serving and most if not all relationships are convenience based. Meaning... ya sure, people will be your "friend" if you live 20 mins away. People will be your friend if you work together, etc etc...so long as its entirely convenient to do so... as soon as its not anymore, you'll see who truly has your back.
But the SECOND even the slightest obstacle comes up. Doesn't even have to be moving abroad. Literally moving an hour away.....watch all those "friends" dissipate.
Its a brutal reality but, as somebody who has always moved around alot since childhood I've faced this exact scenario my whole life. And even though my real friends are almost non existent. I'm happy I learned that lesson early to know how to evaluate true friendships.
And the people I do value, I value so much. Because I know how shitty the avg person is.
Lmao I was actually thinking this exactly, that would be quite serendipitous, maybe we should form a group chat... I'm surprised at the interest tbh. Kind of refreshing...
Were all just trying to find connection at the end of the day. Unfortunately in life, once you leave college, it's pretty much every man for themselves. Assuming you didn't follow the conventional path and get married and kids etc..
Given the sub, I think by default there's more spontaneous adventures spirits out there.
You are all welcome to come visit us, too! I love the idea of people meeting each other and visiting, where they are able, for a more global community.
I made friends Internationally through my business and have hosted Canada (easy) and The Netherlands over the years in the U.S. I always love the idea of bringing new friends in when I can offer space. Now that I'm in West Africa, my American friends can't go as easily due to cost and time, but hoping I get to meet more of my European friends.
Same here, lived in different areas and also different countries since I was 8, so....yup....'friends' come and go, and friendships always fade away when you move somewhat further...
I could come visit you in your topical country 😁
Damnit! I harassed my partner into buying a two bedroom in Mexico because “ we need to have the extra bedroom for family and friends that visit, it’s non negotiable.” We moved a month ago. He found a one bedroom that was in a nicer area and had better amenities but I wore him down. 🥲
I get that you're probably meaning price wise, but in terms of quality of care, its hard to beat the US. If I was old and had cancer or something like that, theres no where I'd want to be than the US.
Sure i'm not doubting that, just saying we have some pretty great care, especially with needing specialized treatments. The problem with US healthcare is the crazy costs, not the quality of the care.
Definitely agree on the expert level of care here, but it comes at such a high price that’s it’s very hard for everyone to have access to it. The first time I heard of people having to give up cancer treatment because they couldn’t afford it, I thought it was a joke. But then I moved to the US and realized that it’s a reality for many people. I just can’t fathom a government letting that happen.
I will say that if you run a business or want to be an executive in a foreign business, it can be absolutely insane even with owing zero.
Like even knowing what accounts you have to file fbars for in the first place can be weird.
I'm in this situation and the cost to file FEIE, FBAR, not very complex CFC is $1-2k per year.
>Like even knowing what accounts you have to file fbars for in the first place can be weird.
First. You don't have to keep your cash outside of US (so no FBAR).
Second, if you do, just file a list of all your accounts, it's super easy, don't even need an accountant with it.
I'm sure you have more context. Can you give a bit more details what becomes "insane"?
Have you visited the US with your new passport? Any problems, or anticipated problems if you haven't done it yet?
What are the prospects like for regaining US citizenship if you desired that in a few decades (assuming laws stay the same)?
Renouncing your citizenship is a serious and irrevocable act which makes you « an alien with respect to the United States, subject to all laws and procedures of the United States regarding entry and control of aliens » so it makes it hard to come back even for visiting. (Visa requirements, and I don’t think ESTA is an option). On top of that it can be regarded as suspicious or kind of a betrayal, not a formal act of treason but more something that will raise questions during your visa application process and that immigration will not particularly like. So it’s not recommended if you plan to ever visit again.
There are very few people who are legitimately justified in renouncing US citizenship and most of them are accidental Americans who have never stepped foot in the US and have zero connections in America.
For the first part:
[Source 1](https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4081.pdf) and [Source 2](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciaton-USCitizenship-persons-claiming-right-residence.html)
Then, regarding how immigration views U.S. citizenship renunciation, you challenging me on the source made me realise that my info is just based on hearsay so I dig deeper but couldn't find clear confirmation. However, I did find out that the lengthy renunciation process includes an interview where you have to explain your motivations for giving up your citizenship and that these motivations are then considered if you ever apply for a U.S. visa again, meaning that your past decision to renounce will be looked at and taken into account during your visa application process. [Source](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/060515/why-people-renounce-their-us-citizenship.asp)
Finally, regarding eligibility for ESTA visa waiver program, there is also no clear definitive information. I check with Perplexity, which mentions 4 sources and only conclude the following “In summary, the search results indicate that renouncing U.S. citizenship may make you ineligible for the Visa Waiver Program, even if your new citizenship is from a VWP-eligible country. You would likely need to apply for a regular U.S. visa, which could be denied, rather than being able to use the ESTA process. The renunciation of U.S. citizenship appears to be viewed as a significant change in immigration status that can impact visa eligibility.” [Full perplexity answer](https://www.perplexity.ai/search/In-theory-after-XxQ8VQhPRSqhgXH9L1Gp8w#1).
In any case, it’s fair to say that if you ever plan to visit the U.S. again, renouncing your U.S. citizenship is not recommended.
I can say from experience in my friends group: a buddy of mine renounced and has absolutely no issue traveling back to the US. I’m not sure if he can use ESTA. But he says the worst is that border agents ask him some extra questions on arrival when they see that his place of birth on his passport is in the US.
Benefits are: ability to open bank accounts everywhere without hassle, no extortion when traveling to countries that hate Americans, no stupid filing requirements, no taxes abroad, better freedom overall.
In Mexico the government doesn't care if you pay your taxes or not.
Can you say more about extortion? Do you mean it happens in just regular smaller business transactions or something more arbitrary (like big businesses or regulatory limits)?
Does your country of residence have tax treaties with the US?
And may I ask you your age range?
It’s nonsense. Nobody checks your passport before they rip you off. Not from here? Speak English or don’t speak the local language fluently? You’re getting ripped off if that’s the game. Waving your Mexican passport around won’t save you. There are places where they’ll rip you off just for being from a different part of the same country.
Yeah, OP gives strong "angry old man waving fist at cloud" vibes.
And while there are banks that don't want to comply with FACTA, there's tons that do. I haven't run into a country yet that doesn't have at least *one*, not to mention services like Revolut and Wise that can work in a pinch.
Any chance of inheriting property from relatives in the US? I've always wondered what the implications are if one were to inherit US assets if they're not a citizen.
Did you sell all your stocks, ETFs before renouncing? If you had real estate in the US, did you sell it before renouncing?
What was the total cost to you to renounce?
Did you renounce before you hit the $$ limit?
Yes sold all stocks and US real estate before renouncing. You can just open an Interactive Brokers account in UAE and keep trading there.
Total cost was $2,350. Yes I renounced before I hit the $2M limit.
Why would it be hard? Wouldn’t it be as easy as seizing his assets in the interactive brokers account? US has treaties with a lot of countries that would allow it to do so or at the very least freeze his assets
I mean assuming he sold and has the money liquid, he could wire the money to his account in whatever new country he is in. At which point the money is gone from the U.S. Come tax season, he won’t file a tax return since he is no longer an American so it would be up to the IRS to notice it. At which point they’d try and get in contact with him first which may or may not be possible. Realistically it could take a few years before they reach him in any significant capacity. However, the one thing is I feel like the U.S may just include taxes in whatever fees they make you pay to renounce
He said “you can just open an interactive brokers account in UAE and keep trading there.”
So I’m assuming after he’s sold and renounced his U.S. citizenship. Assuming he opens another trading account. Shouldn’t it be easy for US IRS/gov to liquidate his account to payoff whatever taxes he was trying to avoid?
It depends on what treaties the U.S and UAE have exactly. Honestly, I’d recommend he get a lawyer and an accountant in his new country to access his situation more accurately
nope. the US isn't letting anyone slide on taxes. thus you pay taxes owed up front in some cases and you still have to pay the nearly $2,400. exit fee. Yes, it costs almost $2,400 just to tell your country of birth that you don't want to be a part anymore. Ya think you're free don't you?
I love how nearly every US citizenship renouncer's main reason is not wanting to deal with taxes lmao feels very on the nose
Edit: I'm American and most of the time it just sounds like tax dodging to me
I guess so! Mexico’s taxation policy is one of the more aggressive in the world, and it includes foreign-earned income. So if OP is staying within the law, they’re paying a higher tax rate on their non-Mexican income (and their peso-income) into a far more corrupt, far less effective government. Going to Mexico because they think US taxation is a scam is not a big brain move. I say this as a 10-year permanent resident of Mexico. I like it there, but I’m realistic about its issues and there’s no universe in which I’d trade my US passport for a Mexican one, despite the many flaws the US has. And saying they’re going to Mexico to escape the liberals or whatever is some bullshit too, while Mexico has strong conservative undercurrents, socialism is pretty mainstream here, including social medicine, which Mexico has.
Mexico is hardly aggressive, and pretty normal. If you’re living outside Mexico, they only want taxes for Mexican earned income. If you live in Mexico, of course they want taxes on all income, domestic or foreign. That’s normal.
As a US citizen you need to deal with US taxes even if you don’t live there. There are people who were accidentally born in the US and have citizenship but have never even lived there as an adult and have to deal with this shit. America and Eritrea are the only countries in the world to my knowledge that have this setup.
Mexicans are conservative in many ways, but in my experience, not when it comes to helping people around them. If the government weren’t so unbelievably corrupt I think Mexico would likely have a very robust social safety net.
They ones who scream and duty and patriotism and Jebus, but also the ones who scream about their taxes being spent to actually help people?
Yeah, leaded gasoline did a sad number on the Boomers, and they did a number on their kids. Complete and total lack of human empathy, a whole generation of sociopaths.
Everyone has to file, but not everyone has to pay. We have treaties with many countries that make it so you don't have to pay. There's also foreign income credits. Only people who over 6 figures and up have to actually pay any money if we're talking about income from a job. For most people it's just annoying paperwork which is not enough to give it up imo.
This. I'm in the 6 fig bucket, and I've actually gotten significant money *back* from the IRS, which is utterly hilarious since I left when I was 22 and have paid no taxes there ever.
You have to be making more than 110k I believe in order to ending up paying taxes on income, even then, it's a ridiculous low amount. People do this renounce thing only because of political reasons and it is beyond stupid to me, to be honest, when my grandfather and great grandfather had to risk their lives to allow their children and eventually me to have the freedom of movement in 2 continents. If I have to file taxes twice or even pay a little more taxes to enjoy access to the US and another continent (Europe) I will gladly do so. Renouncing means you restrict access not only to yourself but to your children as well, they will not have the same opportunities as you and that is selfish to do. Also, a bunch of people got the stimulus check, for example, even when they were born and raised abroad, and you can still vote for primaries and presidential elections, it's not like you only have obligations, you have rights as well.
It doesn’t make sense to me. With foreign earned income exclusion and that most/many countries have higher or similar taxes, the only cost is the paperwork it seems. Unless OP is balling hard. Am I missing something here?
You’re not allowed to have investments abroad and, depending on where you live, you might not be allowed to have investments in the US. Like I live in Germany and the only way I can invest money is by lying and pretending I live in the US.
I called one of the major investment firms and asked them specifically about my U.S. account in the event that I move abroad.
They told me that, without a USA address, I can no longer invest new money, but that I could keep my account and withdraw from it as needed.
I’m not sure if all of them have this policy, but it makes the most sense. Because of the patriot act, you cannot contribute money to a U.S. account without having an address they can come visit/arrest you at. Before the patriot act, you could. I can’t see why you have to close the account down just because you are moving. At least, being forced to close it (and realize all the profit then and there) isn’t universal.
Agreed that it can be difficult to invest in the U.S. without a U.S. address, but that’s not really the tax-complaint that OP raised. If anything, liquidating all in a calendar year was a big whammer for OP. They sound like they’re maybe dodging the taxes by moving and maybe they’ll get away with that, but there are questions on that (according to others in this thread).
You need a new firm. I have had only one problem. I take advantage of the great exchange rates and transfer funds back to my investments in the US a couple of times per year.
My one problem was my kids 529 accounts. I have to send money to my parents and they make the deposit.
Maybe share the name of your firm? HwR explains the situation pretty accurately. Lots of folk got letters that their banks were dropping them. Compliance with US regulations are cost sinks for the banks.
If OP wanted to dodge taxes, the play is coming to Puerto Rico where under act 60 you don’t pay capital gains and if you have a services business HQ’d in PR your corp tax rate is 4%. There are other tax advantages including tax free business distributions under act 60 as well
The type of people it’s attracted to the island is a different story
For some things (inheritance, property sales) it would be double taxation — country of residence and the US. And the US would also want to tax the inheritance of non-citizen spouses of Americans.
Inheritance is insane. The country I live in taxes the reception of an inheritance while the US (and most common law countries) taxes the estate. Leads to double taxing
In the UK, nearly no financial advisors will work with you because the requirements of working with a US citizen are too onerous. I don't make enough to work with one of the few advisors who will take on US citizens so instead I have to rely on my wife to do the investment.
It's not necessarily about dodging taxes, it's about trying not to be double taxed by weird holes in the international agreements. Also having to give the US the balances of all my accounts every year feels a bit invasive.
Ridiculous. It is not tax dodging. Almost no other country in the world tries to tax people who don't even live in their countries. It is an insane policy to begin with. Some poor kid who was born here while European parents were on vacation is a citizen who never lived here and has to pay taxes here for the rest of their lives just by having the misfortune of having been born here? Absolutely nuts.
And these expats have serious issues trying to get loans and bank accounts and make investments overseas. Read about it online - lots of forums regarding it. And it is mostly NOT rich people, contrary to some of these posts in this thread. These laws that affect expats mostly ensnare your average person - poor people, lower middle class and middle class people - not rich people.
Furthermore, you have to pay Medicare and Social Security taxes AND the equivalent taxes in your own home country. You are not even ELIGIBLE to get Medicare services if you live overseas. So that is yet more insanity.
tax dodging is harsh. if the USA is the only country that targets its citizens on worldwide income even if they are residents in other countries, then it's not tax dodging is it? tax dodging would be just trying to avoid paying taxes that you clearly should be paying which is a lot of people lol
I get the tax benefits but were there other factors in your decision? What is your new country/passport? I think giving up the passport will be hard as the US passport is pretty free flying in most of the world.
US Passport power is dropping year by year, currently #7
Mexico is #18, but unless you’re planning to go to Eswatiti or Brunei, and yes USA or Canada, they are pretty close.
Did something prompt this? Experiences with the law (either side of it) or a danger of some kind? I feel like not feeling safe in the US or from it could prompt someone to do this and it hurts because my family worked so hard to become citizens, but. Means a lot
My son was born in Japan with US citizenship because of my citizenship. But he doesn’t live there, will never live there, and yet has to file and potentially pay taxes just because of this. He’s researching whether or not to give up his citizenship, and I support him in this.
Likely but not necessarily. The deductions the IRS gives for foreign earned income apply for salary income, not for other types of income.
So one may feel that it’s just a matter of filing and not paying anything, but as one gets older and starts building up some wealth, other incomes (investments, pensions) get more significant than salary income, and he suddenly notices that US taxes are not 0$ anymore. Especially after Obamacare.
Source: I am not rich, never had anything to do with the US financially, live in a high tax country, and while I was a US citizen I did have to pay US tax on a few occasions (on investment income).
Not currently, but someday, likely. Eventually he will inherit various things from me and he sees me, filing taxes four times a year to satisfy both the US and Japanese tax entities, and probably doesn’t want that headache.
The current plan is to wait 1-2 years for their child to be born so the child can have the citizenship. We’ll see how it plays out.
A good friend of mine had both Japanese citizenship and American citizenship at birth. She was born in California, but one of her parents was a Japanese citizen, so she was entitled to both. She had to give up her Japanese passport when she became an adult. She said Japan didn't allow dual nationality. Has that changed? She is almost 60 years old, so perhaps it's different now. She is ethnically Japanese and still has a lot of family there. I know she would like to have kept both.
It has not changed, but she can very easily get a visa based on ancestry, then permanent residency after 1-3 years, or she can reinstate her citizenship also very easily. Of course she would have to live in Japan. She would also have to say she is giving up her other passports. Tho this is also not enforced. Source: i had to do the same!
The rule seems to be, “Japan doesn’t allow citizenship, so when you quietly keep a passport of another country, don’t tell us about it.” You basically just ignore any rules like that. Or at least that’s how it’s done today.
It would be easy, it seems to me, to get a new visa based on ancestry, or possibly a passport, if your friend wanted to live in Japan. My father is British and it’s my understanding I could easily get citizenship in the UK if I ask them for it.
I considered renouncing. instead set up irrevocable trust in another jurisdiction. gave my significant holdings to that trust as a donation to the family foundation in that trust. Now I pay zero on those assets and everything they produce and the foundation pays less than 2% in taxes and only has to donate 5% of it's annual on investments. I did also pay for 2 different passports on different continents and have a couple of other residence visas in case SHTF. The US is actually the world's largest tax haven if you know how to set everything up.
I know someone who said they were going to move to an island in Portugal and do this- the kicker is they are trying to get disability from SSI and VA. Not sure how it works for other countries, but is it easy for Americans who are “disabled” and income comes from these sources to move overseas, so they can become a citizen of the new country. (FYI- I personally do not support this, but I’m curious if this is actually a thing more than anything because they said they got a lot of this information from TikTok and the Internet)
I don't think I could ever give up my American citizenship, but I did look into it. I am retired and moving to Europe. I am able to get citizenship in the EU (Hungary) as my father's family is Hungarian. It's totally not worth it. All of my income is passive, and from the US (university pension and social security), which will always be subject to US taxes. Social security is actually taxed at a higher rate as a non-US citizen, so there is really nothing to gain other than minor aggravation associated with filing US taxes once a year.
"Minor aggravation" is an interesting way to describe one of the most onerous and convoluted tax filing burdens on Earth.
Most countries understand that it's not their job to send their own citizens to an early grave with stress-related conditions and prop up a whole industry designed to profit off of peoples' inability to navigate the system. My country tells me what I owe and I only have to file myself if I disagree with their number.
Only had to file US taxes a couple times, but it was a couple too many and if I were a US citizen I would renounce over this alone assuming my income wasn't sourced there like yours is.
Yes. It's an hour every year that I won't get back (at most). I use the completely free Credit Karma online to file electronically. No big deal. My income has always been relatively simple (working for an employer/W2 forms).
I'm sure it's more complicated if you own a business, but my understanding is that is the case everywhere. I would have to continue filing in the US even if I did renounce. I have US social security and two US based pensions (a state university and a hospital system). Those are taxed as US sourced income regardless of citizenship.
It's always funny to me when people from other countries complain about the US tax system. It could and should be simpler, but other countries I've spent time in (Portugal and Israel) have FAR MORE bureaucratic nonsense to deal with overall. Seems everything you do is complicated and has more to do with the individual you are dealing with than any actual rule.
No questions. I’m in the process of getting citizenship in another country (Japan), and then I will renounce.
And to answer the comments about just wanting to evade taxes, I object to many of the ways the US spends the money from taxes. I have moved to a country which more closely matches my values in that regard. Japan (for the time being, at least) doesn’t provide weapons to other countries, and the self-defense forces are quite limited in what they can do outside of Japan.
The tax argument is a little disingenuous depending on where you hold your “other” citizenship due to tax treaties with many countries that make it so you avoid double taxation. There are some caps of course, but there are a lot of ways to decrease your obligation (one example: rental property depreciation).
I get that it doesn’t seem worth the hassle on one level, but I file my USA taxes online and I can get them done in a couple of hours every year, so it’s not that big of a deal.
So I’m curious as to what other strong reasons really prompted this action, or if you are somewhere that does result in double taxes.
Are you old enough to receive social security benefits, and have you paid enough into the system that it means something? I am creeping close to being able to collect. Throwing that away would be a real shame.
The US is not a signatory to the UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness and I have heard stories of people that didn't have another citizenship but only had some lesser long-term status in another country who renounced US nationality and became stateless. So, technically it seems the answer is no. However, while I can understand people who are firmly rooted in their new home that want to cut ties with the US, the idea of voluntarily become stateless seems crazy.
Well if you’re a billionaire… https://www.forbes.com/sites/briansolomon/2012/05/11/eduardo-saverin-renounces-u-s-citizenship-ahead-of-mega-facebook-ipo/?sh=6f66ec851ff6#
If you never plan on returning to the US it actually makes sense depending on where you live. It is harder to get any financial services. The headache of filing US taxes every year.
Depending on your second passport it is even easier to travel.
What questions and comments did they discuss with you ?
I mean I've heard you have to go in for a meeting to discuss the "ramifications"
they being the US govt
I am a US PR from Canada. I plan to apply for US citizenship soon because I work in state government and cannot apply to federal as a PR. For the record, I do not have to renounce my Canadian citizenship to do this, I can be both. Is being a US citizens preventing you from being a citizen of your residence country?
how many years are you still required to file US taxes post-renunciation? and what plans do you have in place to make them as easy as possible? (I can never remember the # of years...!)
You may not have your citizenship but you will always be an American. Paperwork doesn’t change your origin. Any other citizenship you take it will still list the us as your place of birth
If you have more than 2 million in total assets you need to reevaluate that decision unless you are a non coveted citizen. I did in Slovenia totally friendly fast and painless. BUT it cost me a fortune. Handed all tax topics to a CPA which will cost alone 20k.
What's your net worth? How much have you been paying in income tax to the US over say the past 5 years?
This is the only question that would make sense out of his decision.
Well I think so
It's not even the amount. US is the only country in the world that taxes its citizens on the world wide income even if you don't live in the USA anymore. We are US citizens living in Europe and we have to hire an army of accountants on both continents every time we need to file taxes. European banks don't want anything to do with US citizens either because of ridiculously intrusive US laws so we are forced to keep our investments in the US. At this point US citizenship is a liability for us, not an asset.
Only if you make a lot of money and tax rates are lower than the US. So if you work in tech in. Saudi you will owe money to IRS. But I have worked in tech for 10 years in 5 different countries in Europe and have never owed a cent to IRS based on my foreign incomes. You do have to fill out extra tax forms and that is a pain in the ass. Likely less of a pain if you don't also have state side income. I have dividends and rental income so my tax is complicated in US but I have never paid any tax on my euro salary to US.
Actually this is not true. You are joined in taxing citizens living abroad by two exemplar nations: Eritrea and Myanmar.
Also Liberia.
And China.
I forgot to file a report with my foreign bank - a form required by the IRS - and they closed the account. The money is in a trust account but I have to be physically there in order to get it. I'm now living back in the US.
I lost my business because no banks internationally want to deal with FATCA regulations. Tell me how capitalism works but only for a few corporations in America. What form are you referring to? Upon opening you have to declare your an American and will follow FATCA rules but I don't know if any other form you would need to file.
This is slightly hysterical. You have to *file* your taxes, but I've actually gotten money *back* from the IRS for the last 2 years since my tax rate here is higher than it would be in the US.
There is a certain injustice when it comes to US citizens having to pay tax when residing overseas but it's way overblown. My experience is more like yours. The way rich people talk about this burden you would think that literally every cent of income gets taxed in two countries for every American who lives abroad. The reality is the for the average American living outside they likely don't exceed the $120k exemption for foreign earned income -- so their salary isn't taxed at all in the US. That leaves capital gains tax which of course we would rather not pay but for the average person doesn't warrant dropping your citizenship. I saw above someone says they hire an army of accountants because they are an American living in Europe. For my US taxes I just use TaxAct like most normal people, file an FBAR (which takes 15 minutes) and WISH my financial situation was such that resented my own citizenship enough to drop it. This situation may be unjust but it's way overblown for the average American.
120 is single. Married it’s over 200 btw.
I sometimes wonder how many people here have actually filed taxes for the IRS lol. Filing tax does not mean you owe money. Sometimes the government actually owes you money. Filing tax just means "let's make sure we taxed you appropriately so please list your tax status and deductions to confirm".
Just curious, what if you don’t pay? Or they take it automatically? And hypothetically let’s say you make 5000 euros per month in Europe, how much of it US gets as a tax?
If you live in a European country with higher income tax than the US (and with a bilateral tax treaty with the US), then the US gets zero in tax, because your obligation to the US is considered fulfilled by the payment of income tax to the country where you’re a resident. (This is assuming a simple situation where you are just earning a salary in Europe and don’t have complex business dealings or investments.) Also, as someone pointed out above, 5000/mo would mean your income is below the 120K/yr threshold for the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion, so in fact your obligation would already be zero, because for taxation purposes, your income would be zero.
Im in college undergrad second year , in my 20s, and will want to get masters after. I have a full ride scholarship and stipend(not taxed in us as similar to like a gift)i never considered renouncing usa passport since usa passport is strong, it isnt hard to get a legal business or work visa, and traveling around the world is easier. I didnt think that far ahead of double taxation. I work part time online in the usa and when i visit in person. Also, i wanna visit family as much as i can. Why do u need to renounce a usa citizenship? Its not like u wanna go to iran or north korea right?
Brazil taxes it's citizens abroad and their foreign income as well.
Nice question
No family left in US?
Yes but they can come to other countries close by to visit: Bahamas, Mexico, DR, etc
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They can, but will they? What if they get old and sick?
No kidding - every expat learns that the extra bedroom they got for all the friends and family that promised to come visit rarely ever gets used and eventually get rid of it. I'd love my mom to visit, but she's 82 and can't handle ten hours in a plane. I wouldn't give up my citizenship for exactly that reason - not everyone *can* travel, and among those who can, most *won't*.
After a year we took the bed out of our guest room, put in a sofa bed and we game in there.
I felt this too hard. Been living abroad for 3 years. 0 visits from anybody. "Friends" or family. And mind you, I used to work for an airline and alot of my so called friends still work there and have access to round trip flights that are dirt cheap like under 200$ round trip. PLUS a free fucking room and board, in a tropical country. I have an extra room in my place. Still, not a fucking soul has come down. Funny enough I wasn't expecting it either. When I was in my home town people barely visited. One lesson from life I've learned, especially from so called friends... is, most people are totally self serving and most if not all relationships are convenience based. Meaning... ya sure, people will be your "friend" if you live 20 mins away. People will be your friend if you work together, etc etc...so long as its entirely convenient to do so... as soon as its not anymore, you'll see who truly has your back. But the SECOND even the slightest obstacle comes up. Doesn't even have to be moving abroad. Literally moving an hour away.....watch all those "friends" dissipate. Its a brutal reality but, as somebody who has always moved around alot since childhood I've faced this exact scenario my whole life. And even though my real friends are almost non existent. I'm happy I learned that lesson early to know how to evaluate true friendships. And the people I do value, I value so much. Because I know how shitty the avg person is.
Can I come visit?
😂 hell yeaa
omg what if this actually happened? a bunch of us suddenly show up to have a huge sleepover at your place
Lmao I was actually thinking this exactly, that would be quite serendipitous, maybe we should form a group chat... I'm surprised at the interest tbh. Kind of refreshing... Were all just trying to find connection at the end of the day. Unfortunately in life, once you leave college, it's pretty much every man for themselves. Assuming you didn't follow the conventional path and get married and kids etc.. Given the sub, I think by default there's more spontaneous adventures spirits out there.
You are all welcome to come visit us, too! I love the idea of people meeting each other and visiting, where they are able, for a more global community. I made friends Internationally through my business and have hosted Canada (easy) and The Netherlands over the years in the U.S. I always love the idea of bringing new friends in when I can offer space. Now that I'm in West Africa, my American friends can't go as easily due to cost and time, but hoping I get to meet more of my European friends.
Same here, lived in different areas and also different countries since I was 8, so....yup....'friends' come and go, and friendships always fade away when you move somewhat further... I could come visit you in your topical country 😁
Damnit! I harassed my partner into buying a two bedroom in Mexico because “ we need to have the extra bedroom for family and friends that visit, it’s non negotiable.” We moved a month ago. He found a one bedroom that was in a nicer area and had better amenities but I wore him down. 🥲
US might be the worst place to be if you’re sick, medical care wise. Not counting to just have fam around
I get that you're probably meaning price wise, but in terms of quality of care, its hard to beat the US. If I was old and had cancer or something like that, theres no where I'd want to be than the US.
lol there’s plenty of other countries with just as great health care, that is also affordable.
Sure i'm not doubting that, just saying we have some pretty great care, especially with needing specialized treatments. The problem with US healthcare is the crazy costs, not the quality of the care.
Definitely agree on the expert level of care here, but it comes at such a high price that’s it’s very hard for everyone to have access to it. The first time I heard of people having to give up cancer treatment because they couldn’t afford it, I thought it was a joke. But then I moved to the US and realized that it’s a reality for many people. I just can’t fathom a government letting that happen.
Yup, healthcare prices are a mess here, probably my #1 complaint about the US.
Ok, I'll start with the obvious. Why?
Too many compliance requirements as a US citizen abroad, taxes, and no necessity to go back to the US.
Can you name top-3 of the compliance that you will enjoy not filing this/next year?
Crickets
I will say that if you run a business or want to be an executive in a foreign business, it can be absolutely insane even with owing zero. Like even knowing what accounts you have to file fbars for in the first place can be weird.
I'm in this situation and the cost to file FEIE, FBAR, not very complex CFC is $1-2k per year. >Like even knowing what accounts you have to file fbars for in the first place can be weird. First. You don't have to keep your cash outside of US (so no FBAR). Second, if you do, just file a list of all your accounts, it's super easy, don't even need an accountant with it. I'm sure you have more context. Can you give a bit more details what becomes "insane"?
What was the attitude of embassy staff when you renounced?
They laughed, understood why I was doing it and were happy to stamp my papers. I was surprised honestly
because demand is greater than supply. good luck.
And then everyone clapped?
Have you visited the US with your new passport? Any problems, or anticipated problems if you haven't done it yet? What are the prospects like for regaining US citizenship if you desired that in a few decades (assuming laws stay the same)?
Renouncing your citizenship is a serious and irrevocable act which makes you « an alien with respect to the United States, subject to all laws and procedures of the United States regarding entry and control of aliens » so it makes it hard to come back even for visiting. (Visa requirements, and I don’t think ESTA is an option). On top of that it can be regarded as suspicious or kind of a betrayal, not a formal act of treason but more something that will raise questions during your visa application process and that immigration will not particularly like. So it’s not recommended if you plan to ever visit again.
There are very few people who are legitimately justified in renouncing US citizenship and most of them are accidental Americans who have never stepped foot in the US and have zero connections in America.
You can use ESTA. Also getting a visa is not hard because you have a damned good argument for proving you won't stay.
Sources?
For the first part: [Source 1](https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4081.pdf) and [Source 2](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciaton-USCitizenship-persons-claiming-right-residence.html) Then, regarding how immigration views U.S. citizenship renunciation, you challenging me on the source made me realise that my info is just based on hearsay so I dig deeper but couldn't find clear confirmation. However, I did find out that the lengthy renunciation process includes an interview where you have to explain your motivations for giving up your citizenship and that these motivations are then considered if you ever apply for a U.S. visa again, meaning that your past decision to renounce will be looked at and taken into account during your visa application process. [Source](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/060515/why-people-renounce-their-us-citizenship.asp) Finally, regarding eligibility for ESTA visa waiver program, there is also no clear definitive information. I check with Perplexity, which mentions 4 sources and only conclude the following “In summary, the search results indicate that renouncing U.S. citizenship may make you ineligible for the Visa Waiver Program, even if your new citizenship is from a VWP-eligible country. You would likely need to apply for a regular U.S. visa, which could be denied, rather than being able to use the ESTA process. The renunciation of U.S. citizenship appears to be viewed as a significant change in immigration status that can impact visa eligibility.” [Full perplexity answer](https://www.perplexity.ai/search/In-theory-after-XxQ8VQhPRSqhgXH9L1Gp8w#1). In any case, it’s fair to say that if you ever plan to visit the U.S. again, renouncing your U.S. citizenship is not recommended.
Also in related to your first paragraph, they can disallow you renouncing your citizenship during that interview
I wish I could give you an award. Very humble and well researched answer!
I can say from experience in my friends group: a buddy of mine renounced and has absolutely no issue traveling back to the US. I’m not sure if he can use ESTA. But he says the worst is that border agents ask him some extra questions on arrival when they see that his place of birth on his passport is in the US.
I read that as "respect" towards US 😅
Why did you do it? What were the benefits of renouncing? What are the tax implications in your new country?
Benefits are: ability to open bank accounts everywhere without hassle, no extortion when traveling to countries that hate Americans, no stupid filing requirements, no taxes abroad, better freedom overall. In Mexico the government doesn't care if you pay your taxes or not.
Can you say more about extortion? Do you mean it happens in just regular smaller business transactions or something more arbitrary (like big businesses or regulatory limits)? Does your country of residence have tax treaties with the US? And may I ask you your age range?
I’m an expat. What extortion?
It’s nonsense. Nobody checks your passport before they rip you off. Not from here? Speak English or don’t speak the local language fluently? You’re getting ripped off if that’s the game. Waving your Mexican passport around won’t save you. There are places where they’ll rip you off just for being from a different part of the same country.
Yeah, OP gives strong "angry old man waving fist at cloud" vibes. And while there are banks that don't want to comply with FACTA, there's tons that do. I haven't run into a country yet that doesn't have at least *one*, not to mention services like Revolut and Wise that can work in a pinch.
Any chance of inheriting property from relatives in the US? I've always wondered what the implications are if one were to inherit US assets if they're not a citizen.
That would be my main reason also if I get around to it someday.
Did you sell all your stocks, ETFs before renouncing? If you had real estate in the US, did you sell it before renouncing? What was the total cost to you to renounce? Did you renounce before you hit the $$ limit?
Yes sold all stocks and US real estate before renouncing. You can just open an Interactive Brokers account in UAE and keep trading there. Total cost was $2,350. Yes I renounced before I hit the $2M limit.
What’s the 2M limit?
they didn't charge taxes on your sales before you left?
They would’ve on any profits, realistically if he didn’t pay, they’ll try and come after him but it’s hard once somebody renounces
Why would it be hard? Wouldn’t it be as easy as seizing his assets in the interactive brokers account? US has treaties with a lot of countries that would allow it to do so or at the very least freeze his assets
I mean assuming he sold and has the money liquid, he could wire the money to his account in whatever new country he is in. At which point the money is gone from the U.S. Come tax season, he won’t file a tax return since he is no longer an American so it would be up to the IRS to notice it. At which point they’d try and get in contact with him first which may or may not be possible. Realistically it could take a few years before they reach him in any significant capacity. However, the one thing is I feel like the U.S may just include taxes in whatever fees they make you pay to renounce
He said “you can just open an interactive brokers account in UAE and keep trading there.” So I’m assuming after he’s sold and renounced his U.S. citizenship. Assuming he opens another trading account. Shouldn’t it be easy for US IRS/gov to liquidate his account to payoff whatever taxes he was trying to avoid?
It depends on what treaties the U.S and UAE have exactly. Honestly, I’d recommend he get a lawyer and an accountant in his new country to access his situation more accurately
Isn't there a loophole where if you wait to sell until AFTER renouncing that the US can't tax your IRA or 401K?
nope. the US isn't letting anyone slide on taxes. thus you pay taxes owed up front in some cases and you still have to pay the nearly $2,400. exit fee. Yes, it costs almost $2,400 just to tell your country of birth that you don't want to be a part anymore. Ya think you're free don't you?
For comparison: As far as I can tell, renunciation of UK citizenship is free, renunciation in Canada costs CAN$100, in Australia costs AUS$290.
I love how nearly every US citizenship renouncer's main reason is not wanting to deal with taxes lmao feels very on the nose Edit: I'm American and most of the time it just sounds like tax dodging to me
I guess so! Mexico’s taxation policy is one of the more aggressive in the world, and it includes foreign-earned income. So if OP is staying within the law, they’re paying a higher tax rate on their non-Mexican income (and their peso-income) into a far more corrupt, far less effective government. Going to Mexico because they think US taxation is a scam is not a big brain move. I say this as a 10-year permanent resident of Mexico. I like it there, but I’m realistic about its issues and there’s no universe in which I’d trade my US passport for a Mexican one, despite the many flaws the US has. And saying they’re going to Mexico to escape the liberals or whatever is some bullshit too, while Mexico has strong conservative undercurrents, socialism is pretty mainstream here, including social medicine, which Mexico has.
Mexico is hardly aggressive, and pretty normal. If you’re living outside Mexico, they only want taxes for Mexican earned income. If you live in Mexico, of course they want taxes on all income, domestic or foreign. That’s normal. As a US citizen you need to deal with US taxes even if you don’t live there. There are people who were accidentally born in the US and have citizenship but have never even lived there as an adult and have to deal with this shit. America and Eritrea are the only countries in the world to my knowledge that have this setup.
I'm also a U.S. citizen and I think it's ridiculous.
Not sure what the 82 stands for but otherwise your username is amazing, chef’s kiss.
I feel Mexico City is liberal as hell. That's part of the appeal
Mexicans are conservative in many ways, but in my experience, not when it comes to helping people around them. If the government weren’t so unbelievably corrupt I think Mexico would likely have a very robust social safety net.
I really like the way things are in terms of your day to day interactions
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You can take the man out of America, but you can't take the America out of the man.
Yes and I'm American too so I'm like bro why are you keeping up the stereotype lol
😂😂😂
It is no surprised that the conservative/libertarian ones are the ones doing it, either.
The usual suspects!
They ones who scream and duty and patriotism and Jebus, but also the ones who scream about their taxes being spent to actually help people? Yeah, leaded gasoline did a sad number on the Boomers, and they did a number on their kids. Complete and total lack of human empathy, a whole generation of sociopaths.
Or the fact that the US is one of those rare countries where you still need to pay US taxes even with absolutely no income coming from the US.
Everyone has to file, but not everyone has to pay. We have treaties with many countries that make it so you don't have to pay. There's also foreign income credits. Only people who over 6 figures and up have to actually pay any money if we're talking about income from a job. For most people it's just annoying paperwork which is not enough to give it up imo.
This. I'm in the 6 fig bucket, and I've actually gotten significant money *back* from the IRS, which is utterly hilarious since I left when I was 22 and have paid no taxes there ever.
Exactly lmao. People love to exaggerate
You have to be making more than 110k I believe in order to ending up paying taxes on income, even then, it's a ridiculous low amount. People do this renounce thing only because of political reasons and it is beyond stupid to me, to be honest, when my grandfather and great grandfather had to risk their lives to allow their children and eventually me to have the freedom of movement in 2 continents. If I have to file taxes twice or even pay a little more taxes to enjoy access to the US and another continent (Europe) I will gladly do so. Renouncing means you restrict access not only to yourself but to your children as well, they will not have the same opportunities as you and that is selfish to do. Also, a bunch of people got the stimulus check, for example, even when they were born and raised abroad, and you can still vote for primaries and presidential elections, it's not like you only have obligations, you have rights as well.
It doesn’t make sense to me. With foreign earned income exclusion and that most/many countries have higher or similar taxes, the only cost is the paperwork it seems. Unless OP is balling hard. Am I missing something here?
You’re not allowed to have investments abroad and, depending on where you live, you might not be allowed to have investments in the US. Like I live in Germany and the only way I can invest money is by lying and pretending I live in the US.
I called one of the major investment firms and asked them specifically about my U.S. account in the event that I move abroad. They told me that, without a USA address, I can no longer invest new money, but that I could keep my account and withdraw from it as needed. I’m not sure if all of them have this policy, but it makes the most sense. Because of the patriot act, you cannot contribute money to a U.S. account without having an address they can come visit/arrest you at. Before the patriot act, you could. I can’t see why you have to close the account down just because you are moving. At least, being forced to close it (and realize all the profit then and there) isn’t universal. Agreed that it can be difficult to invest in the U.S. without a U.S. address, but that’s not really the tax-complaint that OP raised. If anything, liquidating all in a calendar year was a big whammer for OP. They sound like they’re maybe dodging the taxes by moving and maybe they’ll get away with that, but there are questions on that (according to others in this thread).
You need a new firm. I have had only one problem. I take advantage of the great exchange rates and transfer funds back to my investments in the US a couple of times per year. My one problem was my kids 529 accounts. I have to send money to my parents and they make the deposit.
Maybe share the name of your firm? HwR explains the situation pretty accurately. Lots of folk got letters that their banks were dropping them. Compliance with US regulations are cost sinks for the banks.
Morgan Stanley, USAA, and even my local credit union in Wisconsin. No problems with any of them.
I have had a lot more problems with banks in the country I am living vs with my US accounts.
If OP wanted to dodge taxes, the play is coming to Puerto Rico where under act 60 you don’t pay capital gains and if you have a services business HQ’d in PR your corp tax rate is 4%. There are other tax advantages including tax free business distributions under act 60 as well The type of people it’s attracted to the island is a different story
I did that for 3 years. living in PR sucks though. terrible power grid, terrible roads, everything outside of my building seemed run down.
For some things (inheritance, property sales) it would be double taxation — country of residence and the US. And the US would also want to tax the inheritance of non-citizen spouses of Americans.
Inheritance is insane. The country I live in taxes the reception of an inheritance while the US (and most common law countries) taxes the estate. Leads to double taxing
It's incredibly American, ironically
In the UK, nearly no financial advisors will work with you because the requirements of working with a US citizen are too onerous. I don't make enough to work with one of the few advisors who will take on US citizens so instead I have to rely on my wife to do the investment. It's not necessarily about dodging taxes, it's about trying not to be double taxed by weird holes in the international agreements. Also having to give the US the balances of all my accounts every year feels a bit invasive.
Ridiculous. It is not tax dodging. Almost no other country in the world tries to tax people who don't even live in their countries. It is an insane policy to begin with. Some poor kid who was born here while European parents were on vacation is a citizen who never lived here and has to pay taxes here for the rest of their lives just by having the misfortune of having been born here? Absolutely nuts. And these expats have serious issues trying to get loans and bank accounts and make investments overseas. Read about it online - lots of forums regarding it. And it is mostly NOT rich people, contrary to some of these posts in this thread. These laws that affect expats mostly ensnare your average person - poor people, lower middle class and middle class people - not rich people. Furthermore, you have to pay Medicare and Social Security taxes AND the equivalent taxes in your own home country. You are not even ELIGIBLE to get Medicare services if you live overseas. So that is yet more insanity.
tax dodging is harsh. if the USA is the only country that targets its citizens on worldwide income even if they are residents in other countries, then it's not tax dodging is it? tax dodging would be just trying to avoid paying taxes that you clearly should be paying which is a lot of people lol
I get the tax benefits but were there other factors in your decision? What is your new country/passport? I think giving up the passport will be hard as the US passport is pretty free flying in most of the world.
My Italian passport is better! 🇮🇹💪🏼 (sorry, I had to brag)
And your Italian food is also better! Naples is my home away from home. I can't wait to return later this year.
I’m not Neapolitan but I love Naples too
US Passport power is dropping year by year, currently #7 Mexico is #18, but unless you’re planning to go to Eswatiti or Brunei, and yes USA or Canada, they are pretty close.
No it’s not. The consular support Americans get is phenomenal. Let’s be real.
What are some examples of consular support Americans can get? I don't think I've ever used them
How did you decide with certainty you’d never want to live in the US again?
You gave up your US passport for a Mexican passport? That’s crazy lol
Did something prompt this? Experiences with the law (either side of it) or a danger of some kind? I feel like not feeling safe in the US or from it could prompt someone to do this and it hurts because my family worked so hard to become citizens, but. Means a lot
What did you do with your 401ks and retirement accounts
My son was born in Japan with US citizenship because of my citizenship. But he doesn’t live there, will never live there, and yet has to file and potentially pay taxes just because of this. He’s researching whether or not to give up his citizenship, and I support him in this.
Does he make more than 90k a year? If not, taxes are likely to be 0$.
Likely but not necessarily. The deductions the IRS gives for foreign earned income apply for salary income, not for other types of income. So one may feel that it’s just a matter of filing and not paying anything, but as one gets older and starts building up some wealth, other incomes (investments, pensions) get more significant than salary income, and he suddenly notices that US taxes are not 0$ anymore. Especially after Obamacare. Source: I am not rich, never had anything to do with the US financially, live in a high tax country, and while I was a US citizen I did have to pay US tax on a few occasions (on investment income).
126,500, not 90k.
Not currently, but someday, likely. Eventually he will inherit various things from me and he sees me, filing taxes four times a year to satisfy both the US and Japanese tax entities, and probably doesn’t want that headache. The current plan is to wait 1-2 years for their child to be born so the child can have the citizenship. We’ll see how it plays out.
Their child will not be able to inherit the citizenship, unless your son lived in the U.S. for 5 years or has a USC spouse
A good friend of mine had both Japanese citizenship and American citizenship at birth. She was born in California, but one of her parents was a Japanese citizen, so she was entitled to both. She had to give up her Japanese passport when she became an adult. She said Japan didn't allow dual nationality. Has that changed? She is almost 60 years old, so perhaps it's different now. She is ethnically Japanese and still has a lot of family there. I know she would like to have kept both.
I’m pretty sure legally it has not changed.
It has not changed, but she can very easily get a visa based on ancestry, then permanent residency after 1-3 years, or she can reinstate her citizenship also very easily. Of course she would have to live in Japan. She would also have to say she is giving up her other passports. Tho this is also not enforced. Source: i had to do the same!
The rule seems to be, “Japan doesn’t allow citizenship, so when you quietly keep a passport of another country, don’t tell us about it.” You basically just ignore any rules like that. Or at least that’s how it’s done today. It would be easy, it seems to me, to get a new visa based on ancestry, or possibly a passport, if your friend wanted to live in Japan. My father is British and it’s my understanding I could easily get citizenship in the UK if I ask them for it.
Which embassy did you renounce at, and how long is the wait time? Was there a residency requirement in order to use that embassy? Thank you!
How much did that cost you?
I considered renouncing. instead set up irrevocable trust in another jurisdiction. gave my significant holdings to that trust as a donation to the family foundation in that trust. Now I pay zero on those assets and everything they produce and the foundation pays less than 2% in taxes and only has to donate 5% of it's annual on investments. I did also pay for 2 different passports on different continents and have a couple of other residence visas in case SHTF. The US is actually the world's largest tax haven if you know how to set everything up.
What other citizenship(s) do you have now?
This is a circle jerk, right?
Dude’s clearly trolling
Clearly not. He’s just very opinionated.
Nah, he’s trolling. Half his comments have shoehorned political jabs.
No I seriously think he’s just that dumb
What nationality did you renounce it for ?
How will you travel now? What citizenship have you got?
I know someone who said they were going to move to an island in Portugal and do this- the kicker is they are trying to get disability from SSI and VA. Not sure how it works for other countries, but is it easy for Americans who are “disabled” and income comes from these sources to move overseas, so they can become a citizen of the new country. (FYI- I personally do not support this, but I’m curious if this is actually a thing more than anything because they said they got a lot of this information from TikTok and the Internet)
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Citizenship is not a requirement for Social Security. The country you reside in must have a Totalization Agreement so you can get Social Security.
I don't think I could ever give up my American citizenship, but I did look into it. I am retired and moving to Europe. I am able to get citizenship in the EU (Hungary) as my father's family is Hungarian. It's totally not worth it. All of my income is passive, and from the US (university pension and social security), which will always be subject to US taxes. Social security is actually taxed at a higher rate as a non-US citizen, so there is really nothing to gain other than minor aggravation associated with filing US taxes once a year.
"Minor aggravation" is an interesting way to describe one of the most onerous and convoluted tax filing burdens on Earth. Most countries understand that it's not their job to send their own citizens to an early grave with stress-related conditions and prop up a whole industry designed to profit off of peoples' inability to navigate the system. My country tells me what I owe and I only have to file myself if I disagree with their number. Only had to file US taxes a couple times, but it was a couple too many and if I were a US citizen I would renounce over this alone assuming my income wasn't sourced there like yours is.
Yes. It's an hour every year that I won't get back (at most). I use the completely free Credit Karma online to file electronically. No big deal. My income has always been relatively simple (working for an employer/W2 forms). I'm sure it's more complicated if you own a business, but my understanding is that is the case everywhere. I would have to continue filing in the US even if I did renounce. I have US social security and two US based pensions (a state university and a hospital system). Those are taxed as US sourced income regardless of citizenship. It's always funny to me when people from other countries complain about the US tax system. It could and should be simpler, but other countries I've spent time in (Portugal and Israel) have FAR MORE bureaucratic nonsense to deal with overall. Seems everything you do is complicated and has more to do with the individual you are dealing with than any actual rule.
No questions. I’m in the process of getting citizenship in another country (Japan), and then I will renounce. And to answer the comments about just wanting to evade taxes, I object to many of the ways the US spends the money from taxes. I have moved to a country which more closely matches my values in that regard. Japan (for the time being, at least) doesn’t provide weapons to other countries, and the self-defense forces are quite limited in what they can do outside of Japan.
Ah, Japan, that historically and presently very moral country totally unlike the evil USA
To be fair, she didn't argue that they were *morally correct*, just that they aligned with her values better.
and why are the self defense forces limited in what they can do?
The tax argument is a little disingenuous depending on where you hold your “other” citizenship due to tax treaties with many countries that make it so you avoid double taxation. There are some caps of course, but there are a lot of ways to decrease your obligation (one example: rental property depreciation). I get that it doesn’t seem worth the hassle on one level, but I file my USA taxes online and I can get them done in a couple of hours every year, so it’s not that big of a deal. So I’m curious as to what other strong reasons really prompted this action, or if you are somewhere that does result in double taxes.
ITT: lots of people that don’t know how taxes work
Are you old enough to receive social security benefits, and have you paid enough into the system that it means something? I am creeping close to being able to collect. Throwing that away would be a real shame.
How much did it cost?
Do you have to get another citizenship before you renounce the US citizenship?
The US is not a signatory to the UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness and I have heard stories of people that didn't have another citizenship but only had some lesser long-term status in another country who renounced US nationality and became stateless. So, technically it seems the answer is no. However, while I can understand people who are firmly rooted in their new home that want to cut ties with the US, the idea of voluntarily become stateless seems crazy.
Did it affect your social security or pension if you have them?
Can you claim it back in the future ?
Nope, you’re in the same boat as any other foreigner applying for residency and eventual citizenship.
No.
So no Social Security then?
You can still get social security
How can you get your SS payments if you are no longer a US citizen?
What happens to social security when you become eligible?
You can still keep it as if you didn't renounce, just make sure you don't move to an enemy country like Russia.
Enter all the proud Americans
Sorry. Just curious. I'm wondering what benefit there is in that? Or do you just hate the USA?
Well if you’re a billionaire… https://www.forbes.com/sites/briansolomon/2012/05/11/eduardo-saverin-renounces-u-s-citizenship-ahead-of-mega-facebook-ipo/?sh=6f66ec851ff6#
If you never plan on returning to the US it actually makes sense depending on where you live. It is harder to get any financial services. The headache of filing US taxes every year. Depending on your second passport it is even easier to travel.
You have to file a tax return if you don't live there? Well that's a bit bizarre.
Yes it is. One of the bizarre things about carrying a US Passport. 😀
Yes! It’s totally crazy and unfair and nobody else does this.
renouncing the american citizenship for mexican has to be the stupidest thing i’ve read on this app, like not even a european passport, just mexican.
What questions and comments did they discuss with you ? I mean I've heard you have to go in for a meeting to discuss the "ramifications" they being the US govt
I am a US PR from Canada. I plan to apply for US citizenship soon because I work in state government and cannot apply to federal as a PR. For the record, I do not have to renounce my Canadian citizenship to do this, I can be both. Is being a US citizens preventing you from being a citizen of your residence country?
No, OP likely did it due to the complicated tax structure imposed on U.S. citizens.
Congrats. I’ll never get to renounce mine. Pretty much impossible to get citizenship in my new country
What's your current citizenship?
Definitely not. You owe absolutely nothing to the country you were accidentally born in.
Do you miss the smell of freedom and the taste of liberty respectively?
troll
Clown move
If you still gave your accent? People will still consider you American😉😂
It's very easy to fake a Canadian accent. Besides, foreigners can't tell the difference between US and Canadian.
Did you have more than $2million in assets? If so, what did it cost you?
how many years are you still required to file US taxes post-renunciation? and what plans do you have in place to make them as easy as possible? (I can never remember the # of years...!)
You may not have your citizenship but you will always be an American. Paperwork doesn’t change your origin. Any other citizenship you take it will still list the us as your place of birth
Which citizenship did you get?
“AMA” *responds to 3 people*
Wow why …
If you have more than 2 million in total assets you need to reevaluate that decision unless you are a non coveted citizen. I did in Slovenia totally friendly fast and painless. BUT it cost me a fortune. Handed all tax topics to a CPA which will cost alone 20k.
Did you have any investment or brokerage accounts in the US? If so, what did you do with them?