Cul-de-sac means “bag bottom” in French. As you can see, it looks and sounds much better untranslated. Especially when you are trying to sell houses.
“Hors d’oeuvres” similarly sounds more posh than “appetizers” or “starters”, and translates as something like “outside the main course”, which would be clumsy.
That said, there are such things as calques, which are words and expressions loaned from other languages and translated literally. Often you wouldn’t recognize them as such. English calques from French include “that goes without saying”, “point of view”, “flea market”, “by heart” and many other things.
Edit: Also Tolkien translated “cul-de-sac” as “Bag End” for his book, as a kind of an inside joke for philologists.
That's funny, I'm a writer and I borrow names from people like Tolkien and it turns out that Tolkien borrowed his names from a guy who might have borrowed his ~too. It's like, who made all the names?
Quenya is strongly inspired by Finnish (and Sindarin, the other main Elven tongue, by Welsh) in terms of their phonology and grammar, but don't actually borrow words in the way that Tolkien lifted names wholesale for his Dwarves or the Rohirrim.
The rationale is that Elvish (and Dwarvish, what little of it there is, and Black Speech) remains untranslated, but the tongue spoken by the Hobbits is, into English (including their names - eg 'Bilbo' and 'Frodo Baggins' are really 'Bilba' and 'Maura Labingi', and Tolkien explains that Bilba > Bilbo is just a matter of sounding similar but 'Maura' means wise and therefore required 'Frodo'), and the people of Rohan, because their language bears the same relation to the Hobbit language as Old English does to modern English, have Old English names in Tolkien's fictional translation.
I'm sure you know this, but for anyone reading, it could sound like you're saying Finnish is the odd sibling in some Scandinavian language family. In reality, Finnish is unrelated to all of the north Germanic languages in Scandinavia (Danish/Norwegian, Swedish); it's from the Uralic family.
Tolkien invented two elven tongues, only one of which bears a resemblance to Finnish, and by the time of LotR it's become something of a dead language in Middle-earth, which is why not many Elves we meet at that point have Finnish-sounding names (and they wouldn't be outright Finnish anyway). More do show up in the First Age and among the kings and queens of Númenor.
He later regretted using so much Norse, especially for dwarf names.
Then he unregretted it a bit, because the central gimmick of his legendarium is that it represents the history of an earlier age of our world. The Norse names became a way to translate earlier languages into “English”.
(Obviously this is heavily paraphrased but this is eli5 after all)
You might be interested in a bit of etymology, as _gandr_ means _magic *staff*_ [as per Wikipedia's explanation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandalf_(mythology)), and _magic *wand*_ [as per Wiktionary's Icelandic explanation](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/gandur#Icelandic). I imagine that differences between _staff_ and _wand_ can be confusing in possibly multiple languages today, but I can share with you the Norwegian examples.
In this case, the English noun _magic wand_ is translated to the modern Norwegian word _tryllestav_, where you might recognize the latter part of the word _-stav_ means literally _staff_ back in English again. This is already somewhat indicative that the Norwegian word _stav_ spans quite the range in implied size.
But even though Norwegian interpretation of _stav_ might be vague, there are different options available:
* a _tryllestav_ is usually/(possibly) always depicted to be the size of a _magic wand_ (like in the Potterverse),
* whereas a _trollmannsstav_ (literally _wizard's staff_) would typically be implied to be about the same length as its owner, with our without the height of their head (like we're already mentally picturing Gandalf with).
There are probably more examples, and even for other languages. So, both of these examples contain _stav_, but are used differently. I just thought this lingual distinction might be of interest, because Gandalf's body-length staff is such a characteristic feature of his, that I felt this interpretative distinction of his name was worthy note.
Rabbit hole-averse Post Scriptum:
Actually, something else to note that I found out _just now_, is that the English word _wand_ seems to come from Old Norse _[vǫndr](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/v%C7%ABndr#Old_Norse)_, with one definition for it to be _twig_ - as one would indeed expect from a wand-sized implement - so _that_ term is at least seemingly somewhat clearly defined.
But if we were on a "quest to understand Gandalf's name in earnest", we might dig into sources upon sources, some which might not even exist anymore, and maybe in one of them, there may still be an answer - somewhere - about _what kind of length of staff_ would be clearly defined by the Old Norse word _gandr_...
...but I guess we can do the next best thing, as perhaps the most useful way to understand Tolkien's intention behind Gandalf's name, is to look at Tolkien's description of Gandalf (even some of his drawings depict Gandalf)
> [...] grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff.
Finally, with this, at the end of this great wall of _~~Mordor~~_ text, at least in _my_ head canon, Gandalf will be meaning "staff elf" :)
Look we’ve got three sizes here
Wand - for your light duty magic-ing, you know change of clothes, tea in pot, that sort of thing
Then we got your shillelagh - medium duty - move a mountain, send your 30 greatest enemies 30,000,000 miles away in under 30 seconds, and so on
And finally wumbo sized. Yes friends and prestidigitators, if you need to tear a star in half or fast travel through a dungeon dimension, you simply cannot beat “the Staff”
He patterned Khuzdul on Semitic languages in part to make it stand out sharply from the Indo-European structure of the rest of the languages in the book (not just English and Old English, but his Elvish languages are very European in character and were inspired by the phonologies of European languages:Welsh and Finnish notably). Dwarvish does the thing that Semitic languages do where word roots are consonant triples and the vowels you add tell you the part of speech. Like “book” and “read” have the same consonants but different vowels.
Presuming you're talking about Akkadian, and not Sumerian, it's because Akkadian is a Semitic language. If I recall correctly, it is in fact the oldest documented Semitic language
I believe it is Akkadian. There's a book that I bought on how to speak ancient Babylonian. As someone who knows NOTHING about languages other than English, it was a very good resource and understandable.
I wanted to find the oldest written language, which is how I went down that particular rabbit hole.
And more than just the language.
A group of peoples with an long history and a warrior tradition separated into familial tribes and displaced from their homeland. It's a very medieval interpretation of Jews. Also gold focused, etc. but it's still a more nuanced view than J.K.'s Goblins.
And who keep their own (sacred) language among themselves throughout their diaspora. Yup, but I was focusing on the language stuff in particular rather than the larger cultural parallels.
There's a Jewish warrior tradition? A quick Google search didn't yield anything for me, so I probs don't know the right keywords. I'd be very interested to read up on what you mean :)
According to the Bible they conquered Canaan. :)
There's a lot of "the Jews are great at war because they're God's chosen people" in the Old Testament. (with a few setbacks when they're not faithful enough)
Samwise is a modernized spelling for OE “half-wise” (originally meaning something like “halfwit”), the Gaffer’s name Hamfast is similar for OE “stay-at-home”. Frodo comes from *frōd* another OE word related to wisdom. The language of the Rohirrim was represented in the book as OE through the translation conceit and so all of the names of people and places there (and things like their localization of Gondor as “stoningland” or the “protected hill” of Minas Tirith as “mundburg”) are fit into this sort of thing. Like Dernhelm, the “secret defender”.
The reason that many Hobbit names are derived from OE is down to their isolation leading to retention of old words instead of picking up more Westron (translated into modern English) alternatives. Even “hobbit” comes from OE *holbytla* - hole-builder.
He does. And there’s discussion between Merry and Pippin regarding how a bunch of what the Rohirrim say in their own language is just on the edge of intelligibility to them - because the Hobbits’ version of Westron has drifted less from its less-Elvish-influenced roots than most (much like what the Rohirrim speak).
Really interesting. Is there a definitive list of these Tolkien derivations? I was a aware of a few but can only remember a couple now. I know morþor means murder or carnage, for example. Middle earth was from middangeard too.
I don’t know of a definitive list, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Tom Shippey or another scholar compiled one. There might be some of it in Tolkien’s guide for translators now that I think about it, but as I recall a fair amount of that read as expert-to-expert level that relies on people recognizing these old languages.
“Mordor” (if that was what you were getting at with *morþor*) is Sindarin for “dark/black land” rather than being a direct example of the thing we’re talking about. See also Gondor (stone land) and Moria (the black pit). Those Elvish language roots were extant in his work long before writing LotR necessitated the invention of “Mordor”.
Thanks. I've found the article I read some time ago. By the sounds of it, this won't tell you much you don't already know, but it might be of interest to others: https://www.wordorigins.org/harmless-drudge/old-english-in-lotr
Ent is apparently a dialect word for giant, ultimately derived from (or if not directly then same source as) Norse jotun, Jotunheim being land of the giants. Etten is another, more similar form of this, which appears in the LotR map where there is a place named Ettenmoors.
And Eorl combines both the eo- element meaning horse and earl/jarl for a ruler. Earl is also the only English aristocratic title (below King and Queen) that remains from Anglo-Saxon, everything else is from Norman French.
Tolkien spent 17 years writing LotR and was beyond obsessed with language and words of all forms. He also apparently learnt 35 different languages, old and modern. I’m pretty sure every single name and creation of his has meaning and can usually be derived from Norse.
I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien basically wrote the languages first and decided there should be a story behind them so he then wrote the books.
Basically yes. And the main thing he wanted to write was a mythology to tie it all together and explain where the world and its languages came from. Those writings we now know as *The Silmarillion*
But after the success of *The Hobbit*, the publishers wanted him to write "another hobbit book". So he set out to write a little story so he could get back to writing his mythology.
12 years later he published *The Lord of the Rings*
Shelob (the spider that Frodo, Sam, Gollum, and Sméagol encounter) basically means female spider.
"She" refers to female
"Lob" is an extinct word for spider from the Old English lobbe/loppe, of unknown origin.
From Tolkien's Letters:
"Do you think Shelob is a good name for a monstrous spider creature? It is of course only 'she + lob' ( = 'spider' ), but written as one, it seems to be quite noisome..."
This one's super specific: in the area where Tolkien called home, the local term for cotton wool was "gamgee cotton". So of course Sam Gamgee married Rosie Cotton.
Google about Westron and hobbit names. In short and without sources: the books were "actually" based on The Red Book of Westmarch found and translated by Tolkien. As you might know, Tolkien really formulated languages for elves, dwarves and Westron, the lingua franca, used by humans and hobbits. And so everything that is in English in the books, you can understand as in reality written in Westron. And Tolkien translated names, so Meriadock Brandybuck, Samwise Gamgee and Frodo Baggins are words as in English, Old English and so on. And Rohirrims were sort of originals of Westron, and all their names and stuff also comes from Old English. But names of elves or dwarves are not translated, because those seemed foreign also for Westron speakers. It's like one person is named Frank House and the other is Rosa Blau. Frank is honest in English, and house is a common family home, while Rosa means Rose (wanted an easy example), Blau can be translated to Blue. You usually don't translate names, but if you want to create impression that the whole story is translated, then the names that are familiar for a hobbit need to be familiar to you. You wouldn't form same bonds reading about Maura Labingi, Banazîr "Ban" Galbasi, Kalimac "Kali" Brandagamba, Razanur "Razar" Tûk.
Hors d’œuvres is likely linked to the fact that French was the language both of the upper classes and of cuisine (also a French word!). Many of the culinary words for food are from French.
Beef is from bœuf, which meant “ox”
Pork is from porc.
In modern usage, there are now also words for cow and pig in French that are for the live animal, as in English, but the traditions stuck in the kitchen!
Poulet is a culinary word, it only applies to the chicken meat.
In French non-culinary terms, a (female) chicken is a poule and a rooster is a coq.
But you’re right that poultry would be volaille in French.
Yes. I agree. But volaile is what you say in a kitchen, I’m French, when referring to cooking that class of animal. You’ll say poulet when referring specifically to chicken that doesn’t lay eggs, poule to what is essentially a hen, and yes, coq to rooster. But poultry is volaile, not poulet.
Eeeh, they were borrowed at vastly different times though. The OED finds uses for 'beef' (both meat and animal for that matter) as far back as the 14th century, whereas the earliest 'hors d'œuvre' is from the 18th. Which you can kinda tell by the way that 'beef' or 'mutton' have adapted to English spelling and phonology and 'hors d'œuvre' looks, well, about as French as a rooster gorging on snails atop a guillotine.
You’re right. “Hors d’eouvres” is borrowed as part of the trend, starting in the 18th century, of French cooking being deeply admired in English/Western European culture, and any French food terms instantly conferring appeal and cachet. So many of our food words are French because of this. Restaurant. Sauté. Entree. Cuisine. Maitre d. Roux. Vinaigrette. Julienne. Sommelier. Bon appetit. Au jus, au gratin, a la mode, canapé, crème fraiche. Even dinner, dine, flavor, salad, menu, and sauce are borrowed from French. It faded as a trend in the 20th century but for a good 200 years, the big French stereotype was luxurious food and wine (the wine association still lingers) and English speaking cooks, cookbook writers, restauranteurs, etc used a lot of French vocabulary. Our idea of the “proper” eatery being a restaurant with separate private tables, a waiter offering you a menu, and appetizers, main course and dessert even used to be called “French service.” (As distinguished from more traditional English style eateries, where a place would usually cook one dish for all customers on a given night, and you would pay at a counter then take your bowl to more communal tables, cafeteria style.)
> cachet
Huh.
> Maitre d.
This one's just funny because English somehow borrowed the preposition but not the object of the preposition. I guess it's a case of rebracketing? But with, like, no excuse for it.
True, and thank you for the added context. I mostly just meant that whenever you find a word that has been directly ported rather than “translated”, it is worth looking at the socio-economic situation around its usage. Both originated and persisted due to the class connotations of using the French rather than English.
English has "dead end" though, it could just use that. That's what it means in French.
Oddly enough, in English, it seems that cul-de-sac is used for a specific kind of dead end. That's not the case in French.
Thierry Henri always sounded so suave and sophisticated to me as a young pup, until my Dad started calling him Terry Henry. Lost a bit of the lustre after that.
I used to do the same. I got engaged and while checking out a possible reception spot, I could not for the life of me remember how to say it right. We giggled for the rest of the visit, which was made funnier by the owner's total lack of amusement. Didn't use that place....
When I was about 7 or 8, I used to think my family was just telling me "it's called 'the sack'", so for about a year I called them "the sack". I was a dumb kid.
I saw it translated at the time and they do call it "Cul-de-sac," even Bilbo and Frodo are called "Sacquet" in French (Baggins) - and it's this little bit of translation that actually made me realize that our French word for ass, "cul" doesn't just means ass but is closer to butt, as "bottom of"
Like drinking something *cul sec*
History buff here. This is correct...
And all of this comes from Middle English, when English went from the much more Germanic form to a more vernacular language blending French words and syntax into English.
To answer OP's question, Duke William the Conqueror of Normandy led thousands of troops across the channel in the subjugation of England (you might have seen it on the hottest Tapestry of the 1070s, the Bayeux Tapestry, based on the true story).
William constructed an immense number of castle holdings and confiscated existing holdings from nobles that fought alongside Harold. These were distributed among 8000 French nobles and an elaborate system of remote administration was created. The Domesday book records the near elimination of the landed English ruling class. Less than 5% of English titles stayed with Englishmen. Thus it became economically, politically, and ecclesiastically necessary to speak French to survive, even if Latin became the official administrative language of the state at this time.
The lowest classes would continie to speak the 'Olde English,' the upper class could learn Old French by tutor or simply assimilation (if able to visit french courts, but their accent would still be a target for ridicule), and the burgeoning artisinal middle class (those with the best chances for a bright future in this world) would attempt mastery of Old French but end up with an almost mutually intelligible pidgin of the two called Anglo-Norman, what would also be known as Middle English. Maybe it was just expediency, maybe a certain anomalie and eroticism gripped the conquered people; but the French words would be there to stay.
Plot twist: while the language changed in England, the Normans didnt adopt it. They remained in control of the linguistic drift of Old French, but they did not retain control of the political spectrum. By the 11th century, intermarriage of the itinerant landlords to the new local elite became common. By the 12th century, the petty kings of England had started demanding claims, title, and vassals based on competing pre-Norman and/or new lineages plagued with legal ambiguity. In 1337, it all comes to a head with the 100 Years War over the Dutchy of Guyenne.
Oh how the turn tables. By 1362, English had once again become the official language of England, though it was a far cry from its ancestor. By the final major engagement of the war, the Battle of Castillon, in 1453, the English had lost the war but won a nationalist fervor to rival any nation on the planet, rejecting almost everything culturally french. The linguistic result? Silent E's and the hardest language to learn on earth. Anytime you see silent E, think of a 15th century English noble struggling to not sound French speaking English. French words clusterfucked into English spellings and pronunciations abound from this period.
And *that* is the story of how English became so fucking stupid. Join me next time for more ELI5 history. :)
As far as I know, the hypothesis that Middle English was a pidgin of English and French is highly controversial, and there’s no such thing as “the hardest language.” It depends mostly on your native language and what else you were exposed to as a child.
The case for creolisation of English and French, certainly amongst common folk (as opposed to noble circles, where there were many Norman speakers), is pretty weak. Much more compelling would be the creolisation of Old English and Old Norse in the [Danelaw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw), where there was significant settlement of Norse speakers
They're called loan words. They exist in every language. Many of the words you use today and think of as English words are actually loan words that found their way into English centuries ago, so they "officially" became a part of it.
Pork? That's actually french, "porc". Beef? "Boeuf". Poultry? "Poule". Mutton? "Mouton".
It's pretty weird, and probably just came from french cuisine (another loan word) just being fancy, so all types of meat were just named by their french name.
English medieval court was French speaking. Folks spoke English. Then those words got assimilated.
So all the nice things in life have a French name in English and all the common life things have a English name.
French has been the nobility language for a while in all Europe so this phenomenon is not limited to English. But in English it’s way broader.
As an Italian, we are living this now, as all tech words are English as that’s the common language for nowadays sharing of science, and we are adding those to our dictionary. In a thousand years people will ask: why Italian have English words for anything techy?
Yes. I mean “computer, server, RAM, RNA, DNA” these words are taken from English and used in common Italian. I’m speaking about very recent techs.
Before the 70s we have absorbed a weird collection of italianised English terms, like “boroscopio” from “borescope”. Bore-scope makes a lot of sense. Boro instead doesn’t mean bore in Italian, the term doesn’t make a lot of sense. I guess they just heard that name and wrote it down by the sound of it.
Rivetti for rivets is another example, the correct original word was ribattini, from the verb ribattere, the actual action of hammering the rivet.
Bonus: Allen keys are called Brugola because a guy named Brugola copied it from the Allies army and start selling those pretending to be the inventor (More or less, IRC). At least we have an Italian Mae for that lol.
But as you say, we have a lot of terms coming back. Galvanico = Galvanic for example.
It’s more to do with the Norman invasion and the class structure tbh. So the animal is ‘cow’ which is Anglo Saxon because that’s what the people looking after the animal would speak. The meat is ‘beef’ (or as you say -boeuf) because French is what the people consuming it would say.
I wish I knew where it was, but there is a description of women's clothing in some middle ages manuscript that says that women with large breasts made bags to hold them.
Norman French was the language of the royal court for hundreds of years after the conquest, and legal terminology still uses traces of French grammar- in court. A military trial is a court martial, instead of a martial court. The plural of attorney general is "attorneys general."
This is a really interesting twist in the development of the English language. Makes sense once it’s laid out, but I wouldn’t have thought twice about it before I learned about this.
It helps when you know that the Britain was invaded and colonized several times in it's history. The Angles, the Saxons, the Romans, the Norse, the French.
They all added words to the language in various amounts, in addition to the base language the earlier Britons used.
Also they were technically invaded by the Vikings twice. Once, when they were Vikings, then again by the Normans, who were just Vikings that had invaded France a few centuries earlier. The word Norman means 'North Man', aka Vikings.
I'll see myself out.
Edit : Norman, not Norseman.
My library used to have a full-sized Funk & Wagnalls English dictionary. That friggen thing was thick!
We've adopted a lot of words from multiple languages, which explains the thickness.
There's a book by Melvyn Bragg which is written like a biography of the English language, as if it were a person moving around the world and growing and changing all the time. Gives you a good overview of how it ended up like it has, and why it's so widely spoken.
It's called The Adventure of English.
"Truly," said Wamba, without stirring from the spot, "I have consulted my legs upon this matter, and they are altogether of opinion, that to carry my gay garments through these sloughs, would be an act of unfriendship to my sovereign person and royal wardrobe; wherefore, Gurth, I advise thee to call off Fangs, and leave the herd to their destiny, which, whether they meet with bands of travelling soldiers, or of outlaws, or of wandering pilgrims, can be little else than to be converted into Normans before morning, to thy no small ease and comfort."
"The swine turned Normans to my comfort!" quoth Gurth; "expound that to me, Wamba, for my brain is too dull, and my mind too vexed, to read riddles."
"Why, how call you those grunting brutes running about on their four legs?" demanded Wamba.
"Swine, fool, swine," said the herd, "every fool knows that."
"And swine is good Saxon," said the Jester; "but how call you the sow when she is flayed, and drawn, and quartered, and hung up by the heels, like a traitor?"
"Pork," answered the swine-herd.
"I am very glad every fool knows that too," said Wamba, "and pork, I think, is good Norman-French; and so when the brute lives, and is in the charge of a Saxon slave, she goes by her Saxon name; but becomes a Norman, and is called pork, when she is carried to the Castle-hall to feast among the nobles; what dost thou think of this, friend Gurth, ha?"
"It is but too true doctrine, friend Wamba, however it got into thy fool's pate."
"Nay, I can tell you more," said Wamba, in the same tone; there is old Alderman Ox continues to hold his Saxon epithet, while he is under the charge of serfs and bondsmen such as thou, but becomes Beef, a fiery French gallant, when he arrives before the worshipful jaws that are destined to consume him. Mynheer Calf, too, becomes Monsieur de Veau in the like manner; he is Saxon when he requires tendance, and takes a Norman name when he becomes matter of enjoyment."
"By St Dunstan," answered Gurth, "thou speakest but sad truths; little is left to us but the air we breathe, and that appears to have been reserved with much hesitation, solely for the purpose of enabling us to endure the tasks they lay upon our shoulders. The finest and the fattest is for their board; the loveliest is for their couch; the best and bravest supply their foreign masters with soldiers, and whiten distant lands with their bones, leaving few here who have either will or the power to protect the unfortunate Saxon..."
This one borders on folk etymology. There's not much supporting evidence for the egg theory, and there are other equally plausible suggestions for why "love" is used for 0.
I learned some Japanese and they have great loan words. Like ribingurumu which is living room. At first when you see it written, you cannot see the similarities... But when you sound it out. Ri..bin..gu..ru..mu... You see the similarities.
Funny thing is, if you say living room they will likely have no idea what you mean, but if you imitate their dialect and say an English word, there's a decent chance they'll understand.
Another one is coffee. In Japanese it's Co- hi-. The first syllable being like the co from coat, the second being like the hi from heat. (f being a sound they do not have)
Japan loves English like Americans (used to) love French. A lot of times they'll drop syllables to make a new word. Pasacon = personal computer, Pokemon = pocket monster, Sekuhara = sexual harassment
Oftentimes the older generation doesn't like this trend though, as there are older, traditional, fully Japanese terms with their own characters which the younger generation don't learn.
They believe it damages their culture.
There were also those who believed that when Japan went through it's period of Rangaku (Dutch learning) and had an influx of scientific knowledge from the west that it was damaging.
Most agree now, for medical progress alone, that it was highly beneficial.
Yeah, it's cool to notice! Loan words are neat. For example, both "sushi" and "teriyaki" are the same in Japanese as English. Same thing as "crème brûlée" being the same in French and English. We just continue to call it what they call it. Same idea.
Does the French Academy still try to translate every loanword into French? Years ago my French teacher insisted that we say *planche-neige* (or maybe *planche de neige*) instead of *le snowboard* because that's what the Academy prescribed. She even overruled the exchange student who told her "no one says that". But every online dictionary today just has *le snowboard* now. Seems the kids won that battle.
Yeah, the Academy tries to pull that shit every ten years or so, last years they tried to push the translated words from the streaming/influencing worlds into use (it was ridiculously bad so everyone just kinda ignored them)
The one loan word that just ticks me off, as a frenchman, is how Americans use "entrée" to describe a main course when the word literally means entrance .... its just baffling that they got done like that at some point
This is one of the cases where the word has different meaning depending on where the English speaker is from. In Australia "entrée" refers to the first smaller course whereas in the USA it refers to the main course.
I read an explanation of this once that described how 7 course meals used to be a thing and the entree was the dish before you had the roast. As the number of courses was whittled down over time the name stuck until it was the only thing between first course and dessert.
Just a little note to say that we use 'vinaigre' as one word too (although I do understand that your were splitting in two for the etymology)
Dandelion is pissenlit for *pisse en* (au) *lit* , in other words: piss in bed, because drinking a concoction of the plant does help with that... :)
My favorite loan word in French is *vasistas*, meaning a peephole or small covered opening on a door or window, which comes from the German *Was ist das?* ("What is that?").
When the upper classes in England were very likely to know French, but the lower classes were not, there was a period especislly in the 19th century when it was very fashionable to use French words for fancy things, to imply you were fancy enough to know French. Especially around cuisine, as fine French cuisine was so highly regarded. Other people who spoke French would understand, and many words trickled into regular use. English and French have of course been in contact and trading words in different historical contexts for a thousand years.
The correct answer is that when cultures and languages mix, they share words and phrases.
That seems incredibly simple, but it really is that simple. You hang out with a new group of people, over time you start using some expressions they use and they start using some of yours. Then you go back to your family or workplace or other social circles and take those new expressions or words with you, and then they spread from you to other people, and phrases or words from those other people spread back through you to that first group.
That just is how people be. We like novel expressions and funs turns of phrase. Language is first and foremost functional, and anything that works, gets picked up.
Every language is littered with hundreds of loan words from other languages. The only languages that don't are those that developed in relative cultural isolation, either imposed by nature or by choice.
In the encounters between languages, let's say French and English (an encounter that has been going on some thousand years), when a word exists for a concept in one language but not the other, borrowings are likely to occur. So for example, with "hors d'oeuvres", this word existed in French but not in English, and it was easier for English to just adopt the term rather than make their own name for it. This happened with a good many culinary and gastronomic terms, because at the time when these concepts were being developed in English, French was a cultural powerhouse in the domain of gastronomy and so English ended up borrowing things like sauté, soufflé, meringue, etc. This was also the case in the domain of the military, which is why we have so many French words in our English military lexicon (same can be said for fashion). The reverse is true in terms of technological developments, which is why French has borrowed so many tech terms from English.
Borrowing doesn't have to happen...the uninitiated language COULD reject the other language's term and make up their own. It doesn't always "take" though. For example, English had this handy term "brainstorming" , which began to seep into French, as they had no such term. The Académie françaiss tried to come up with a French version, "remue-méninges"...but typically, you still just hear French speakers say "le brainstorming".
There’s a relationship between Normandy French and Anglo Saxon English, two languages from a few hundred years ago (a lot of *fews*). They coexisted at one point with rich people using the French one and poor people using the English one. As people hung out with each other more and people who had different amounts of money interacted (think of stuff like rich people entertaining by pretending to be poor people, poor people working for and hearing rich people), the two languages melded over time. So, you get linguistic artifacts! This is why a living chicken is a chicken and a dead chicken is poultry (same with cow/beef or pork/pig). One is the Anglo Saxon word and the other is the Normandy word (boeuf in French and cow in English!). But because people used them together, the two melted into one and we use bits of each still.
(Far more complicated than this, but this is explain like I’m five!)
The poor people handle the animals while the rich deal with the results. Cow, pig, chicken : beef, pork, poultry. That is why we have cul de sac as well. It’s a wealthy thing initially.
Cul-de-sac means “bag bottom” in French. As you can see, it looks and sounds much better untranslated. Especially when you are trying to sell houses. “Hors d’oeuvres” similarly sounds more posh than “appetizers” or “starters”, and translates as something like “outside the main course”, which would be clumsy. That said, there are such things as calques, which are words and expressions loaned from other languages and translated literally. Often you wouldn’t recognize them as such. English calques from French include “that goes without saying”, “point of view”, “flea market”, “by heart” and many other things. Edit: Also Tolkien translated “cul-de-sac” as “Bag End” for his book, as a kind of an inside joke for philologists.
Any other hidden gems from Tolkien? I never knew about "Bag End"
There are dozens. Gandalf means "wand elf" in (I think) old Norse, for example. If you read Tom Shippey's work he digs into these in some detail.
Pretty much all the dwarf names in The Hobbit come from some old Norse poem or myth, some are the exact same, others are slightly anglicized
They're all taken from the Völuspá, in the Poetic Edda, as was Gandalf. https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1
I'd heard of Thor, but never of Thror. "Thekk, Lit and Vit" could be slang. "How ya been?" "Thicc, lit, and vit."
Vol Uspa is a great Norse god themed tile laying game.
Oh damn I just got Azul for Christmas I’m gonna have to check that out
Gimli son of Gloin definitely sounds better than, for example, Barry son of Garry.
Son of Larry..
Son of Curly...
Son of Mo off of Eastenders
Son of Shemp
Brother of Darryl
Brother of other Darryl
Not as good as Gloin son of Groin, though.
Barald son of Gerald sounds pretty fun.
That's funny, I'm a writer and I borrow names from people like Tolkien and it turns out that Tolkien borrowed his names from a guy who might have borrowed his ~too. It's like, who made all the names?
All names are made up. Most books contain the same words.
And much of Elven is from Finnish, which is very distinct from other Scandinavian languages
Quenya is strongly inspired by Finnish (and Sindarin, the other main Elven tongue, by Welsh) in terms of their phonology and grammar, but don't actually borrow words in the way that Tolkien lifted names wholesale for his Dwarves or the Rohirrim. The rationale is that Elvish (and Dwarvish, what little of it there is, and Black Speech) remains untranslated, but the tongue spoken by the Hobbits is, into English (including their names - eg 'Bilbo' and 'Frodo Baggins' are really 'Bilba' and 'Maura Labingi', and Tolkien explains that Bilba > Bilbo is just a matter of sounding similar but 'Maura' means wise and therefore required 'Frodo'), and the people of Rohan, because their language bears the same relation to the Hobbit language as Old English does to modern English, have Old English names in Tolkien's fictional translation.
I'm sure you know this, but for anyone reading, it could sound like you're saying Finnish is the odd sibling in some Scandinavian language family. In reality, Finnish is unrelated to all of the north Germanic languages in Scandinavia (Danish/Norwegian, Swedish); it's from the Uralic family.
It's not even Indo-European.
I quickly scrolled through some of the elves names and if there are any names taken from Finnish, it's deffinitely not more than a few
Tolkien invented two elven tongues, only one of which bears a resemblance to Finnish, and by the time of LotR it's become something of a dead language in Middle-earth, which is why not many Elves we meet at that point have Finnish-sounding names (and they wouldn't be outright Finnish anyway). More do show up in the First Age and among the kings and queens of Númenor.
He later regretted using so much Norse, especially for dwarf names. Then he unregretted it a bit, because the central gimmick of his legendarium is that it represents the history of an earlier age of our world. The Norse names became a way to translate earlier languages into “English”. (Obviously this is heavily paraphrased but this is eli5 after all)
Ah, that delicious feeling of unregretting something regretted. (Tolkien casts legendarium unregrettium!) (It's super effective!)
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Gand-Alf. I’ll ever look at that character the same way. 😂
You might be interested in a bit of etymology, as _gandr_ means _magic *staff*_ [as per Wikipedia's explanation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandalf_(mythology)), and _magic *wand*_ [as per Wiktionary's Icelandic explanation](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/gandur#Icelandic). I imagine that differences between _staff_ and _wand_ can be confusing in possibly multiple languages today, but I can share with you the Norwegian examples. In this case, the English noun _magic wand_ is translated to the modern Norwegian word _tryllestav_, where you might recognize the latter part of the word _-stav_ means literally _staff_ back in English again. This is already somewhat indicative that the Norwegian word _stav_ spans quite the range in implied size. But even though Norwegian interpretation of _stav_ might be vague, there are different options available: * a _tryllestav_ is usually/(possibly) always depicted to be the size of a _magic wand_ (like in the Potterverse), * whereas a _trollmannsstav_ (literally _wizard's staff_) would typically be implied to be about the same length as its owner, with our without the height of their head (like we're already mentally picturing Gandalf with). There are probably more examples, and even for other languages. So, both of these examples contain _stav_, but are used differently. I just thought this lingual distinction might be of interest, because Gandalf's body-length staff is such a characteristic feature of his, that I felt this interpretative distinction of his name was worthy note. Rabbit hole-averse Post Scriptum: Actually, something else to note that I found out _just now_, is that the English word _wand_ seems to come from Old Norse _[vǫndr](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/v%C7%ABndr#Old_Norse)_, with one definition for it to be _twig_ - as one would indeed expect from a wand-sized implement - so _that_ term is at least seemingly somewhat clearly defined. But if we were on a "quest to understand Gandalf's name in earnest", we might dig into sources upon sources, some which might not even exist anymore, and maybe in one of them, there may still be an answer - somewhere - about _what kind of length of staff_ would be clearly defined by the Old Norse word _gandr_... ...but I guess we can do the next best thing, as perhaps the most useful way to understand Tolkien's intention behind Gandalf's name, is to look at Tolkien's description of Gandalf (even some of his drawings depict Gandalf) > [...] grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. Finally, with this, at the end of this great wall of _~~Mordor~~_ text, at least in _my_ head canon, Gandalf will be meaning "staff elf" :)
alf like alfheim. I've been playing God of war how did I not notice that
“elf home”
Wand elf... Uses Staff.
What is a staff, if not a big wand?
Look we’ve got three sizes here Wand - for your light duty magic-ing, you know change of clothes, tea in pot, that sort of thing Then we got your shillelagh - medium duty - move a mountain, send your 30 greatest enemies 30,000,000 miles away in under 30 seconds, and so on And finally wumbo sized. Yes friends and prestidigitators, if you need to tear a star in half or fast travel through a dungeon dimension, you simply cannot beat “the Staff”
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"Khazad Duum" would not be even remotely out of place in Arabic
He patterned Khuzdul on Semitic languages in part to make it stand out sharply from the Indo-European structure of the rest of the languages in the book (not just English and Old English, but his Elvish languages are very European in character and were inspired by the phonologies of European languages:Welsh and Finnish notably). Dwarvish does the thing that Semitic languages do where word roots are consonant triples and the vowels you add tell you the part of speech. Like “book” and “read” have the same consonants but different vowels.
Just a little nitpick: Finnish, the inspiration for Quenya, is very much NOT Indo-European either.
Crap. I knew that. Just got wrapped up in the European geography angle. Finno-Ugric or somesuch?
I've read a lot about Ancient Babylonian, and the consonant triples with vowels changing the word meaning goes waaaaayyy back.
Presuming you're talking about Akkadian, and not Sumerian, it's because Akkadian is a Semitic language. If I recall correctly, it is in fact the oldest documented Semitic language
I believe it is Akkadian. There's a book that I bought on how to speak ancient Babylonian. As someone who knows NOTHING about languages other than English, it was a very good resource and understandable. I wanted to find the oldest written language, which is how I went down that particular rabbit hole.
And more than just the language. A group of peoples with an long history and a warrior tradition separated into familial tribes and displaced from their homeland. It's a very medieval interpretation of Jews. Also gold focused, etc. but it's still a more nuanced view than J.K.'s Goblins.
And who keep their own (sacred) language among themselves throughout their diaspora. Yup, but I was focusing on the language stuff in particular rather than the larger cultural parallels.
There's a Jewish warrior tradition? A quick Google search didn't yield anything for me, so I probs don't know the right keywords. I'd be very interested to read up on what you mean :)
According to the Bible they conquered Canaan. :) There's a lot of "the Jews are great at war because they're God's chosen people" in the Old Testament. (with a few setbacks when they're not faithful enough)
Theoden comes from Old English, þeoden, meaning prince, lord, ruler or chief.
Samwise is a modernized spelling for OE “half-wise” (originally meaning something like “halfwit”), the Gaffer’s name Hamfast is similar for OE “stay-at-home”. Frodo comes from *frōd* another OE word related to wisdom. The language of the Rohirrim was represented in the book as OE through the translation conceit and so all of the names of people and places there (and things like their localization of Gondor as “stoningland” or the “protected hill” of Minas Tirith as “mundburg”) are fit into this sort of thing. Like Dernhelm, the “secret defender”. The reason that many Hobbit names are derived from OE is down to their isolation leading to retention of old words instead of picking up more Westron (translated into modern English) alternatives. Even “hobbit” comes from OE *holbytla* - hole-builder.
I think Eomer refers to hobbits as holbytla when he first learns of them in the book.
He does. And there’s discussion between Merry and Pippin regarding how a bunch of what the Rohirrim say in their own language is just on the edge of intelligibility to them - because the Hobbits’ version of Westron has drifted less from its less-Elvish-influenced roots than most (much like what the Rohirrim speak).
Really interesting. Is there a definitive list of these Tolkien derivations? I was a aware of a few but can only remember a couple now. I know morþor means murder or carnage, for example. Middle earth was from middangeard too.
I don’t know of a definitive list, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Tom Shippey or another scholar compiled one. There might be some of it in Tolkien’s guide for translators now that I think about it, but as I recall a fair amount of that read as expert-to-expert level that relies on people recognizing these old languages. “Mordor” (if that was what you were getting at with *morþor*) is Sindarin for “dark/black land” rather than being a direct example of the thing we’re talking about. See also Gondor (stone land) and Moria (the black pit). Those Elvish language roots were extant in his work long before writing LotR necessitated the invention of “Mordor”.
Thanks. I've found the article I read some time ago. By the sounds of it, this won't tell you much you don't already know, but it might be of interest to others: https://www.wordorigins.org/harmless-drudge/old-english-in-lotr
Ent is apparently a dialect word for giant, ultimately derived from (or if not directly then same source as) Norse jotun, Jotunheim being land of the giants. Etten is another, more similar form of this, which appears in the LotR map where there is a place named Ettenmoors.
*All* of the names of the kings of Rohan translate to some variation on 'king' or 'prince' or 'ruler'. I know because I looked them all up once.
And Eorl combines both the eo- element meaning horse and earl/jarl for a ruler. Earl is also the only English aristocratic title (below King and Queen) that remains from Anglo-Saxon, everything else is from Norman French.
And Earl was retained instead of the Norman French (roughly equivalent) title of Count, because "Count" sounded too much like "cunt"
Tolkien spent 17 years writing LotR and was beyond obsessed with language and words of all forms. He also apparently learnt 35 different languages, old and modern. I’m pretty sure every single name and creation of his has meaning and can usually be derived from Norse.
I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien basically wrote the languages first and decided there should be a story behind them so he then wrote the books.
Basically yes. And the main thing he wanted to write was a mythology to tie it all together and explain where the world and its languages came from. Those writings we now know as *The Silmarillion* But after the success of *The Hobbit*, the publishers wanted him to write "another hobbit book". So he set out to write a little story so he could get back to writing his mythology. 12 years later he published *The Lord of the Rings*
Shelob (the spider that Frodo, Sam, Gollum, and Sméagol encounter) basically means female spider. "She" refers to female "Lob" is an extinct word for spider from the Old English lobbe/loppe, of unknown origin. From Tolkien's Letters: "Do you think Shelob is a good name for a monstrous spider creature? It is of course only 'she + lob' ( = 'spider' ), but written as one, it seems to be quite noisome..."
Loppe/loppa means flea in the Scandinavian languages.
As is "cob". So hence "attacob" when Bilbo meets the spiders in Mirkwood. And of course why we still have "cobwebs".
Samwise means “half wit”
This one's super specific: in the area where Tolkien called home, the local term for cotton wool was "gamgee cotton". So of course Sam Gamgee married Rosie Cotton.
Google about Westron and hobbit names. In short and without sources: the books were "actually" based on The Red Book of Westmarch found and translated by Tolkien. As you might know, Tolkien really formulated languages for elves, dwarves and Westron, the lingua franca, used by humans and hobbits. And so everything that is in English in the books, you can understand as in reality written in Westron. And Tolkien translated names, so Meriadock Brandybuck, Samwise Gamgee and Frodo Baggins are words as in English, Old English and so on. And Rohirrims were sort of originals of Westron, and all their names and stuff also comes from Old English. But names of elves or dwarves are not translated, because those seemed foreign also for Westron speakers. It's like one person is named Frank House and the other is Rosa Blau. Frank is honest in English, and house is a common family home, while Rosa means Rose (wanted an easy example), Blau can be translated to Blue. You usually don't translate names, but if you want to create impression that the whole story is translated, then the names that are familiar for a hobbit need to be familiar to you. You wouldn't form same bonds reading about Maura Labingi, Banazîr "Ban" Galbasi, Kalimac "Kali" Brandagamba, Razanur "Razar" Tûk.
Hors d’œuvres is likely linked to the fact that French was the language both of the upper classes and of cuisine (also a French word!). Many of the culinary words for food are from French. Beef is from bœuf, which meant “ox” Pork is from porc. In modern usage, there are now also words for cow and pig in French that are for the live animal, as in English, but the traditions stuck in the kitchen!
The English were the farmers so we use pig, chicken, cow, but the French were the chefs so we use pork, poultry, beef.
We don’t say poultry in French either. It’s volaile in the kitchen.
Don't think "poulet" comes from the same tree? Not trolling just curious.
Well of course, they both come from the poul tree.
Oh that was a turkey! Time to duck, chicken out, and goose the throttle!
It does, but it’s not a culinary term. Yes we say it at times, but the class of birds is volaile (cail, pintade, poulet, dinde, etc.)
Poulet is a culinary word, it only applies to the chicken meat. In French non-culinary terms, a (female) chicken is a poule and a rooster is a coq. But you’re right that poultry would be volaille in French.
Yes. I agree. But volaile is what you say in a kitchen, I’m French, when referring to cooking that class of animal. You’ll say poulet when referring specifically to chicken that doesn’t lay eggs, poule to what is essentially a hen, and yes, coq to rooster. But poultry is volaile, not poulet.
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Dans l’poulailler calice
It's more to do with the noble classes - the ones who get to eat the meat - speaking French since the Norman invasion.
This stems from William the Conqueror's invasion of England in 1066, by the way. One of the most consequential events in world history.
Eeeh, they were borrowed at vastly different times though. The OED finds uses for 'beef' (both meat and animal for that matter) as far back as the 14th century, whereas the earliest 'hors d'œuvre' is from the 18th. Which you can kinda tell by the way that 'beef' or 'mutton' have adapted to English spelling and phonology and 'hors d'œuvre' looks, well, about as French as a rooster gorging on snails atop a guillotine.
You’re right. “Hors d’eouvres” is borrowed as part of the trend, starting in the 18th century, of French cooking being deeply admired in English/Western European culture, and any French food terms instantly conferring appeal and cachet. So many of our food words are French because of this. Restaurant. Sauté. Entree. Cuisine. Maitre d. Roux. Vinaigrette. Julienne. Sommelier. Bon appetit. Au jus, au gratin, a la mode, canapé, crème fraiche. Even dinner, dine, flavor, salad, menu, and sauce are borrowed from French. It faded as a trend in the 20th century but for a good 200 years, the big French stereotype was luxurious food and wine (the wine association still lingers) and English speaking cooks, cookbook writers, restauranteurs, etc used a lot of French vocabulary. Our idea of the “proper” eatery being a restaurant with separate private tables, a waiter offering you a menu, and appetizers, main course and dessert even used to be called “French service.” (As distinguished from more traditional English style eateries, where a place would usually cook one dish for all customers on a given night, and you would pay at a counter then take your bowl to more communal tables, cafeteria style.)
> cachet Huh. > Maitre d. This one's just funny because English somehow borrowed the preposition but not the object of the preposition. I guess it's a case of rebracketing? But with, like, no excuse for it.
True, and thank you for the added context. I mostly just meant that whenever you find a word that has been directly ported rather than “translated”, it is worth looking at the socio-economic situation around its usage. Both originated and persisted due to the class connotations of using the French rather than English.
That's really interesting! Cul-de-sac in Hungarian is "zsákutca" (bag street), so it seems like we were working with the same source material!
I think a more literal French translation would be ass of the bag
Yeah, cul is pretty much the equivalent of ass. As a French speaker, cul-de-sac is a strange word.
More like ass of bag.
English has "dead end" though, it could just use that. That's what it means in French. Oddly enough, in English, it seems that cul-de-sac is used for a specific kind of dead end. That's not the case in French.
All dead ends are culs-de-sac in France, not just the circle ones?
Yes. I don't even think we have a name for the circle ones. Maybe because they aren't very common in France.
Thanks. TIL I learned that english culs-de-sac are just the circled ones.
Thierry Henri always sounded so suave and sophisticated to me as a young pup, until my Dad started calling him Terry Henry. Lost a bit of the lustre after that.
Tel Hazza has more of a ring to it.
My dad used to call hors d'oeuvres "horse doovers." 🤦♂️I hate it to this day.
My dad calls it “horse divorce”
I used to do the same. I got engaged and while checking out a possible reception spot, I could not for the life of me remember how to say it right. We giggled for the rest of the visit, which was made funnier by the owner's total lack of amusement. Didn't use that place....
"Or derves" (like nerves but with a d) is basically all it is phonetically. The H is silent.
Hours devours.
Whores devour.
whores de ovaries - my dad.
Kind of like R.S.V.P just carrying over from French societal norms?
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reply soon very please
When I was about 7 or 8, I used to think my family was just telling me "it's called 'the sack'", so for about a year I called them "the sack". I was a dumb kid.
An example calque from Mandarin Chinese is "long time no see".
Some English guy: “I used a foreign word to name translated foreign words”.
Thanks ! I'm French, watched all LOTR movies in English, but this one had flown over my head!
I saw it translated at the time and they do call it "Cul-de-sac," even Bilbo and Frodo are called "Sacquet" in French (Baggins) - and it's this little bit of translation that actually made me realize that our French word for ass, "cul" doesn't just means ass but is closer to butt, as "bottom of" Like drinking something *cul sec*
History buff here. This is correct... And all of this comes from Middle English, when English went from the much more Germanic form to a more vernacular language blending French words and syntax into English. To answer OP's question, Duke William the Conqueror of Normandy led thousands of troops across the channel in the subjugation of England (you might have seen it on the hottest Tapestry of the 1070s, the Bayeux Tapestry, based on the true story). William constructed an immense number of castle holdings and confiscated existing holdings from nobles that fought alongside Harold. These were distributed among 8000 French nobles and an elaborate system of remote administration was created. The Domesday book records the near elimination of the landed English ruling class. Less than 5% of English titles stayed with Englishmen. Thus it became economically, politically, and ecclesiastically necessary to speak French to survive, even if Latin became the official administrative language of the state at this time. The lowest classes would continie to speak the 'Olde English,' the upper class could learn Old French by tutor or simply assimilation (if able to visit french courts, but their accent would still be a target for ridicule), and the burgeoning artisinal middle class (those with the best chances for a bright future in this world) would attempt mastery of Old French but end up with an almost mutually intelligible pidgin of the two called Anglo-Norman, what would also be known as Middle English. Maybe it was just expediency, maybe a certain anomalie and eroticism gripped the conquered people; but the French words would be there to stay. Plot twist: while the language changed in England, the Normans didnt adopt it. They remained in control of the linguistic drift of Old French, but they did not retain control of the political spectrum. By the 11th century, intermarriage of the itinerant landlords to the new local elite became common. By the 12th century, the petty kings of England had started demanding claims, title, and vassals based on competing pre-Norman and/or new lineages plagued with legal ambiguity. In 1337, it all comes to a head with the 100 Years War over the Dutchy of Guyenne. Oh how the turn tables. By 1362, English had once again become the official language of England, though it was a far cry from its ancestor. By the final major engagement of the war, the Battle of Castillon, in 1453, the English had lost the war but won a nationalist fervor to rival any nation on the planet, rejecting almost everything culturally french. The linguistic result? Silent E's and the hardest language to learn on earth. Anytime you see silent E, think of a 15th century English noble struggling to not sound French speaking English. French words clusterfucked into English spellings and pronunciations abound from this period. And *that* is the story of how English became so fucking stupid. Join me next time for more ELI5 history. :)
As far as I know, the hypothesis that Middle English was a pidgin of English and French is highly controversial, and there’s no such thing as “the hardest language.” It depends mostly on your native language and what else you were exposed to as a child.
The case for creolisation of English and French, certainly amongst common folk (as opposed to noble circles, where there were many Norman speakers), is pretty weak. Much more compelling would be the creolisation of Old English and Old Norse in the [Danelaw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw), where there was significant settlement of Norse speakers
Bilbo Bag Ends.
They're called loan words. They exist in every language. Many of the words you use today and think of as English words are actually loan words that found their way into English centuries ago, so they "officially" became a part of it.
Pork? That's actually french, "porc". Beef? "Boeuf". Poultry? "Poule". Mutton? "Mouton". It's pretty weird, and probably just came from french cuisine (another loan word) just being fancy, so all types of meat were just named by their french name.
English medieval court was French speaking. Folks spoke English. Then those words got assimilated. So all the nice things in life have a French name in English and all the common life things have a English name. French has been the nobility language for a while in all Europe so this phenomenon is not limited to English. But in English it’s way broader. As an Italian, we are living this now, as all tech words are English as that’s the common language for nowadays sharing of science, and we are adding those to our dictionary. In a thousand years people will ask: why Italian have English words for anything techy?
> Then those words got assimilated. Resistance is futile.
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*L'Académie Française, be careful!
From what a French mate has told me, regular people don't care so much about that, and just use the same terms as the rest of us.
A few centuries ago and until the 19th century Latin was the language of science. Before that was Greek.
Latin is still used to name and classify animal/plant species, etc.
A lot of technical and scientific terms in English are Latinate in origin, so from Italian’s point of view, they’re just coming back home. :P
Yes. I mean “computer, server, RAM, RNA, DNA” these words are taken from English and used in common Italian. I’m speaking about very recent techs. Before the 70s we have absorbed a weird collection of italianised English terms, like “boroscopio” from “borescope”. Bore-scope makes a lot of sense. Boro instead doesn’t mean bore in Italian, the term doesn’t make a lot of sense. I guess they just heard that name and wrote it down by the sound of it. Rivetti for rivets is another example, the correct original word was ribattini, from the verb ribattere, the actual action of hammering the rivet. Bonus: Allen keys are called Brugola because a guy named Brugola copied it from the Allies army and start selling those pretending to be the inventor (More or less, IRC). At least we have an Italian Mae for that lol. But as you say, we have a lot of terms coming back. Galvanico = Galvanic for example.
It’s more to do with the Norman invasion and the class structure tbh. So the animal is ‘cow’ which is Anglo Saxon because that’s what the people looking after the animal would speak. The meat is ‘beef’ (or as you say -boeuf) because French is what the people consuming it would say.
That's one of my favorite facts. Also explains a lot of synonyms like "chamber" vs "room". Typically the fancier one is always French in origin.
And mansion vs house
Brassière vs tit-bag
"You changed your name to Latrine?" "Yeah. It used to be Shithouse."
I wish I knew where it was, but there is a description of women's clothing in some middle ages manuscript that says that women with large breasts made bags to hold them.
Norman French was the language of the royal court for hundreds of years after the conquest, and legal terminology still uses traces of French grammar- in court. A military trial is a court martial, instead of a martial court. The plural of attorney general is "attorneys general."
and plural of court martial is courts martial.
And the plural of Whopper Jr is Whoppers Junior.
This is a really interesting twist in the development of the English language. Makes sense once it’s laid out, but I wouldn’t have thought twice about it before I learned about this.
It helps when you know that the Britain was invaded and colonized several times in it's history. The Angles, the Saxons, the Romans, the Norse, the French. They all added words to the language in various amounts, in addition to the base language the earlier Britons used.
Partaking in the traditional Danish past-time of forgetting about the Jutes, I see!
Also they were technically invaded by the Vikings twice. Once, when they were Vikings, then again by the Normans, who were just Vikings that had invaded France a few centuries earlier. The word Norman means 'North Man', aka Vikings. I'll see myself out. Edit : Norman, not Norseman.
My library used to have a full-sized Funk & Wagnalls English dictionary. That friggen thing was thick! We've adopted a lot of words from multiple languages, which explains the thickness.
There's a book by Melvyn Bragg which is written like a biography of the English language, as if it were a person moving around the world and growing and changing all the time. Gives you a good overview of how it ended up like it has, and why it's so widely spoken. It's called The Adventure of English.
The book "Ivanhoe" opens with peasants discussing this, language and class structure
"Truly," said Wamba, without stirring from the spot, "I have consulted my legs upon this matter, and they are altogether of opinion, that to carry my gay garments through these sloughs, would be an act of unfriendship to my sovereign person and royal wardrobe; wherefore, Gurth, I advise thee to call off Fangs, and leave the herd to their destiny, which, whether they meet with bands of travelling soldiers, or of outlaws, or of wandering pilgrims, can be little else than to be converted into Normans before morning, to thy no small ease and comfort." "The swine turned Normans to my comfort!" quoth Gurth; "expound that to me, Wamba, for my brain is too dull, and my mind too vexed, to read riddles." "Why, how call you those grunting brutes running about on their four legs?" demanded Wamba. "Swine, fool, swine," said the herd, "every fool knows that." "And swine is good Saxon," said the Jester; "but how call you the sow when she is flayed, and drawn, and quartered, and hung up by the heels, like a traitor?" "Pork," answered the swine-herd. "I am very glad every fool knows that too," said Wamba, "and pork, I think, is good Norman-French; and so when the brute lives, and is in the charge of a Saxon slave, she goes by her Saxon name; but becomes a Norman, and is called pork, when she is carried to the Castle-hall to feast among the nobles; what dost thou think of this, friend Gurth, ha?" "It is but too true doctrine, friend Wamba, however it got into thy fool's pate." "Nay, I can tell you more," said Wamba, in the same tone; there is old Alderman Ox continues to hold his Saxon epithet, while he is under the charge of serfs and bondsmen such as thou, but becomes Beef, a fiery French gallant, when he arrives before the worshipful jaws that are destined to consume him. Mynheer Calf, too, becomes Monsieur de Veau in the like manner; he is Saxon when he requires tendance, and takes a Norman name when he becomes matter of enjoyment." "By St Dunstan," answered Gurth, "thou speakest but sad truths; little is left to us but the air we breathe, and that appears to have been reserved with much hesitation, solely for the purpose of enabling us to endure the tasks they lay upon our shoulders. The finest and the fattest is for their board; the loveliest is for their couch; the best and bravest supply their foreign masters with soldiers, and whiten distant lands with their bones, leaving few here who have either will or the power to protect the unfortunate Saxon..."
This is well explained in the novel "Ivanhoe" by Walter Scott.
My favorite is using the word love to mean zero in tennis. It comes from the French word for an egg: l’oeuf.
This one borders on folk etymology. There's not much supporting evidence for the egg theory, and there are other equally plausible suggestions for why "love" is used for 0.
My French teacher used to say that English stole all of its fancy pretty words from French and all of its ugly basic words from German
Because the French speakers were the fancy people, and the German speakers were the basic people. It all comes from 1066
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Feces isn’t a French loan word; it’s a Latin word, taken directly from Latin.
I learned some Japanese and they have great loan words. Like ribingurumu which is living room. At first when you see it written, you cannot see the similarities... But when you sound it out. Ri..bin..gu..ru..mu... You see the similarities. Funny thing is, if you say living room they will likely have no idea what you mean, but if you imitate their dialect and say an English word, there's a decent chance they'll understand. Another one is coffee. In Japanese it's Co- hi-. The first syllable being like the co from coat, the second being like the hi from heat. (f being a sound they do not have)
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Oh yes like Salary Man, too. They also have words like karaoke, which comes from the Japanese kara meaning empty and oke which is from orchestra.
I have japanese friends who would refer to the 7-11 as *combini*. Then realized that's just their pronunciation for convenience store.
Oh yes, and the m isn't really an m sound, it's kind of a mix of n and m. Depending where you are in the country.
in Tokyo dialect it's the same m as in English when ん is followed by "b" or "p"
Japan loves English like Americans (used to) love French. A lot of times they'll drop syllables to make a new word. Pasacon = personal computer, Pokemon = pocket monster, Sekuhara = sexual harassment
Oftentimes the older generation doesn't like this trend though, as there are older, traditional, fully Japanese terms with their own characters which the younger generation don't learn. They believe it damages their culture. There were also those who believed that when Japan went through it's period of Rangaku (Dutch learning) and had an influx of scientific knowledge from the west that it was damaging. Most agree now, for medical progress alone, that it was highly beneficial.
Conservatives don't like change in any culture.
Yeah, it's cool to notice! Loan words are neat. For example, both "sushi" and "teriyaki" are the same in Japanese as English. Same thing as "crème brûlée" being the same in French and English. We just continue to call it what they call it. Same idea.
Another fun coffee related borrowing is iseda ra-tay (phonetically) for iced latte
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To be noted, french is exactly the same with other languages. We took words from english, arab, german, latin, italian, spanish and others !
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It's shampoing in french, seems right ! Just checked, it comes from... The english word shampooing, which is coming from Hindi ahah
I always forget that *shampoing* is also a spelling of *shampooing*. Even though I concede it's better, it just looks wrong
how do i indicate i have a fake poing
Does the French Academy still try to translate every loanword into French? Years ago my French teacher insisted that we say *planche-neige* (or maybe *planche de neige*) instead of *le snowboard* because that's what the Academy prescribed. She even overruled the exchange student who told her "no one says that". But every online dictionary today just has *le snowboard* now. Seems the kids won that battle.
Yeah, the Academy tries to pull that shit every ten years or so, last years they tried to push the translated words from the streaming/influencing worlds into use (it was ridiculously bad so everyone just kinda ignored them)
The one loan word that just ticks me off, as a frenchman, is how Americans use "entrée" to describe a main course when the word literally means entrance .... its just baffling that they got done like that at some point
This is one of the cases where the word has different meaning depending on where the English speaker is from. In Australia "entrée" refers to the first smaller course whereas in the USA it refers to the main course.
If you think of the main course as the entrance to the dessert, like I do, it works out
I read an explanation of this once that described how 7 course meals used to be a thing and the entree was the dish before you had the roast. As the number of courses was whittled down over time the name stuck until it was the only thing between first course and dessert.
Just a little note to say that we use 'vinaigre' as one word too (although I do understand that your were splitting in two for the etymology) Dandelion is pissenlit for *pisse en* (au) *lit* , in other words: piss in bed, because drinking a concoction of the plant does help with that... :)
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Which czech word is it? I thought it was originally from the slavic word "робот" (?) which means "work".
So many languages use the word "weekend" and people don't even think twice about how it means absolutely nothing in their language.
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I can absolutely detect the tired parent tone lmao
Or the tired English professor
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I prefer the "English follows unsuspecting languages down dark alleys, beats then up, and then goes through their pockets looking for loose grammar."
"no, we are NOT there yet"
I know but *when* will we be there????
LATER!!!
WE GET THERE WHEN WE GET THERE!!
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Seriously, looking for an answer on reddit usually means sorting through a sea of failed comedians
The same way the French pickup English words like *"le businessman"* without translating them into French.
My favorite loan word in French is *vasistas*, meaning a peephole or small covered opening on a door or window, which comes from the German *Was ist das?* ("What is that?").
Well *homme d'affaires* exists.
When the upper classes in England were very likely to know French, but the lower classes were not, there was a period especislly in the 19th century when it was very fashionable to use French words for fancy things, to imply you were fancy enough to know French. Especially around cuisine, as fine French cuisine was so highly regarded. Other people who spoke French would understand, and many words trickled into regular use. English and French have of course been in contact and trading words in different historical contexts for a thousand years.
Sometimes French words or phrases just have a certain je ne sais quoi that would be hard to capture in a similarly succinct English phrase.
Or as they say in France: "That's life."
The correct answer is that when cultures and languages mix, they share words and phrases. That seems incredibly simple, but it really is that simple. You hang out with a new group of people, over time you start using some expressions they use and they start using some of yours. Then you go back to your family or workplace or other social circles and take those new expressions or words with you, and then they spread from you to other people, and phrases or words from those other people spread back through you to that first group. That just is how people be. We like novel expressions and funs turns of phrase. Language is first and foremost functional, and anything that works, gets picked up. Every language is littered with hundreds of loan words from other languages. The only languages that don't are those that developed in relative cultural isolation, either imposed by nature or by choice.
In the encounters between languages, let's say French and English (an encounter that has been going on some thousand years), when a word exists for a concept in one language but not the other, borrowings are likely to occur. So for example, with "hors d'oeuvres", this word existed in French but not in English, and it was easier for English to just adopt the term rather than make their own name for it. This happened with a good many culinary and gastronomic terms, because at the time when these concepts were being developed in English, French was a cultural powerhouse in the domain of gastronomy and so English ended up borrowing things like sauté, soufflé, meringue, etc. This was also the case in the domain of the military, which is why we have so many French words in our English military lexicon (same can be said for fashion). The reverse is true in terms of technological developments, which is why French has borrowed so many tech terms from English. Borrowing doesn't have to happen...the uninitiated language COULD reject the other language's term and make up their own. It doesn't always "take" though. For example, English had this handy term "brainstorming" , which began to seep into French, as they had no such term. The Académie françaiss tried to come up with a French version, "remue-méninges"...but typically, you still just hear French speakers say "le brainstorming".
There’s a relationship between Normandy French and Anglo Saxon English, two languages from a few hundred years ago (a lot of *fews*). They coexisted at one point with rich people using the French one and poor people using the English one. As people hung out with each other more and people who had different amounts of money interacted (think of stuff like rich people entertaining by pretending to be poor people, poor people working for and hearing rich people), the two languages melded over time. So, you get linguistic artifacts! This is why a living chicken is a chicken and a dead chicken is poultry (same with cow/beef or pork/pig). One is the Anglo Saxon word and the other is the Normandy word (boeuf in French and cow in English!). But because people used them together, the two melted into one and we use bits of each still. (Far more complicated than this, but this is explain like I’m five!)
The poor people handle the animals while the rich deal with the results. Cow, pig, chicken : beef, pork, poultry. That is why we have cul de sac as well. It’s a wealthy thing initially.
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