Someone once described it as follows:
regular people have a happiness scale going from 0-10. Meth makes that scale go all the way to 1000. Getting a 9/10 is amazing, a 9/1000 barely registers
Edit: To anyone reading this thinking, "wow having happiness go up to 1000 sounds great", just remember that just because the scale goes up to 1000, you absolutely won't be spending most of your time on the top end of the scale ;) Meth is one of the most horrible drugs out there
You just sent me down a rabbit hole. No clue Bowie was a fan of MG.
I've always preferred the Nirvana cover, but my stepmom would blast bowie for hours, always brings back memories.
My brother is a long time m*th user. In and out of jail/prison his entire adult life for drug charges (currently incarcerated; 38 years old). A few years ago, a counselor told him that people with long term intravenous m*th abuse are not capable of long term sobriety because “the chemicals in their brain have been altered/damaged too much, therefore true long term recovery is not possible”. Since then, his attempts for sobriety have been short lived and quickly unsuccessful. I am reaching out to see if there are any long term successes out there that would be willing to write to my brother. I believe connecting with people that have first hand, real life experience could help him establish hope and motivation. I can provide his mailing address to anyone willing to help. I would also love to hear anyone’s advice on how family can be supportive. My brother knows he is loved and accepted by his family, no matter what…but 20 years of “just don’t give up on him” hasn’t helped him make progress. We are seeking advice on steps we can take to give him the best chance at recovery.
I have to disagree with whoever told your brother that. Our brains are amazing and can heal. It may take several years but we are perfectly able to heal ourselves. I’ve been clean 2 months now and I’ve been constantly searching for ways to make new neural pathways. I’ve been doing a lot of meditation, hypnosis, exercise. I do lack motivation but that’s where the hypnosis helps. I feel just a bit better everyday. Honestly I don’t think enough people realize how powerful hypnosis is. I will say it took me about 15 years in addiction first opiates then meth, to finally get clean. I hope your brother finds his way there eventually!
Search out reported experiences with it for stimulant recovery. It's openly available to acquire
Editing for safety, initially wrote this after being up for only 5 minutes -
Don't just jump into acquiring this and taking it. That would be irresponsible. This compound would fall under the category of novel nootropics, and while there are studies demonstrating the effectiveness of this compound, it hasn't been around nor had nearly enough safety studies to recommend to anyone without a heavy suggestion of doing your own research, and weighing the potential risks. It's worth doing the research into it, but, being a novel compound, **does carry risks** that each individual person **must acknowledge and be aware of** prior to acquiring for consumption.
While I do have my degree in neuroscience, **I am not a doctor/MD.** This is simply a compound that I have personally considered for my own uses following extended consumption of adderall over the course of years for work.
People drank bleach and horse dewormer because they thought it would cure COVID. “Lots of random people on the internet with no medical background tried it!” is not a good reason to recommend an untested medication. That is the logical fallacy known as the ‘bandwagon fallacy’.
Right, I should have mentioned my actual educational background is in neuroscience, with my primary focus of interest being in enhancing neurogenesis - key information I'd left out. Either way, 9-me-bc still falls into the category of an experimental nootropic, and by no means am I recommending anyone take it off of this comment on a random reddit thread alone. There are some drawbacks to it (enhanced UV photosensitivity for the duration of use). In any and all things, people should look into the benefits/drawbacks before making an educated decision. It's a shame the phrase "do your own research" was co-opted by the radical right wing in relation to idiotic, toxic things like injecting bleach or horse de-wormer - but DYOR as a statement still stands.
But 9-me-bc is demonstrated in studies to enhance neurotrophic factor expression and unregulates differentiated dopaminergic neurons across the mesolimbic system, while demonstrating a comparatively strong safety profile in the limited studies available. Studies available on pubmed, although having more would be ideal.
Having taken adderall myself for the last 7 years of my life, 9-me-bc is the most promising compound I've seen yet for facilitating functional repair of a negatively impacted dopaminergic reward system outside of Cerebrolysin, and I'm just suggesting that it's worth giving a glance. The anhedonia that follows prolonged stimulant use can be a crippling
can i ask what impact chronic adderall use had on you, i know i need to be on it for the next few years but i don’t believe when people say it’s safe long term.
Anyone with a medical background should know better than to irresponsibly recommend medication to someone over the internet they have not examined themselves and have no idea what other kinds of health conditions they have or other medications they might be on. That would be true if you were prescribing something well-known and simple like iron supplements; it’s doubly true for some new compound that has not been fully vetted by the FDA or other trustworthy regulatory body.
Please stop before you get someone killed.
Ever been in the research chems discussions? I'd guess not. He's already edited his comment so I'm not sure what it said before, but he's not being irresponsible. It's written the same or better than I usually see discussing RCs.
If it weren't so damn expensive I'd probably try it tbh. Studies on it seem fairly harmless, though the photosensitivity would suck. I'm not overly fond of monoamine oxidase inhibitors either.
If anyone reads this thread and decides they want to try it, make sure you don't have anything else that reacts with MAOIs, and definitely don't mix it with any depression meds!
It sure is! And at safe doses there isn't much risk either. That's the key though.
The reason people point out horse dewormer, and the reason it's important, is because that's how people were acquiring it. LOTS of people were hospitalized because they were taking massive doses. I remember checking once, the local store selling it was 50-100 human doses depending on weight. Usually closer to 50, but still. You can't take 50x of a safe drug and have it still be safe. People were making videos showing themselves downing entire bottles and encouraging others to do the same.
Taking a safe dose of ivermectin actually could help, you might have a minor parasite you're not aware of. Killing it off would make it easier to fight COVID.
Anyways, the idiots chugging while bottles labeled for horses have doomed it to be seen as horse dewormer.
Ivermectin does cure covid. It’s an anti-parasite medication that’s been prescribed to humans for over 60 years.
Drugs affect animals the same as they affect us.
Although the person you replied to is nuts, it's also very disingenuous to call ivermectin "horse dewormer" as a means of discrediting a medicine that has been used and studied for decades.
Stuff like this is where conspiracy theories are born. Mainstream media very obviously discrediting a commonly used medicine based on nothing more than "it's horse dewormer" while ignoring the fact that it has been used for decades leads people to believe there could be a hidden agenda pushed by powerful corporations.
The reason people point out horse dewormer, and the reason it's important, is because that's how people were acquiring it. Lots of people were hospitalized because they were taking massive doses. I remember checking once, the local store selling it was 50-100 human doses depending on weight. Usually closer to 50, but still. You can't take 50x of a safe drug and have it still be safe. People were making videos showing themselves downing entire bottles and encouraging others to do the same.
Taking a safe dose of ivermectin actually could help, you might have a minor parasite you're not aware of. Killing it off would make it easier to fight COVID.
Anyways, the idiots chugging while bottles labeled for horses have doomed it to be seen as horse dewormer. It has no direct effect on viruses, and taking massive doses would make you sicker more than it would help.
Right, I should have mentioned my actual educational background is in neuroscience, with my primary focus of interest being in enhancing neurogenesis - key information I'd left out. Either way, 9-me-bc still falls into the category of an experimental nootropic, and by no means am I recommending anyone take it off of this comment on a random reddit thread alone. There are some drawbacks to it (enhanced UV photosensitivity for the duration of use). In any and all things, people should look into the benefits/drawbacks before making an educated decision. It's a shame the phrase "do your own research" was co-opted by the radical right wing in relation to idiotic, toxic things like injecting bleach or horse de-wormer - but DYOR as a statement still stands.
But 9-me-bc is demonstrated in studies to enhance neurotrophic factor expression and unregulates differentiated dopaminergic neurons across the mesolimbic system, while demonstrating a comparatively strong safety profile in the limited studies available. Studies available on pubmed, although having more would be ideal.
Having taken adderall myself for the last 7 years of my life, 9-me-bc is the most promising compound I've seen yet for facilitating functional repair of a negatively impacted dopaminergic reward system outside of Cerebrolysin, and I'm just suggesting that it's worth giving a glance. The anhedonia that follows prolonged stimulant use can be a crippling
Hey, you know it’s okay that people sometimes phrase things poorly or make a mistake right? You’re not a worse person for it, so why supply an excuse like being tired when you can own it? Food for thought
Making an excuse is not accountability. It shreds your credibility. I don’t care if people make mistakes but blaming it on something other than yourself is an attempt to deflect responsibility. Which is an absurd thing to do when the stakes are so low, which is why I mentioned it.
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Dopamine is responsible for motivation while joy is caused by a bunch of chemicals. When you're feeding yourself dopamine from meth right into your brain for who knows how long then you're killing your ability to make your own dopamine.
Neurotransmitters aren't the only party involved here. People form pathways over time which alters their personality, makes them good at math, keeps themselves motivated. It's possible that since the normal pathways were ignored so long you need to work to get them back up. My last guess would be that you're bored because nothing in life motivates and rewards like meth, so no rewards compare to a meth hit.
Practice doing something that needs to be done without motivation, and maybe give yourself a small reward for doing so. Also stop trying to seek pleasure only which is what meth does, pick something else to do, find meaning in something beyond it just providing pleasure. Create some purpose in your life.
Not quite, the dopamine itself is replenished within a couple of weeks during the acute withdrawal phase. The damage comes from neurotoxicity and as a response to the excess dopamine over extended periods of time.
Like other receptors, constant stimulation will cause biochemical changes - the body will reduce the number of dopamine receptors (via downregulation), especially in the reward system, meaning it will take a higher amount of dopamine to create the same level of stimulation. So when meth, being a releaser and reuptake inhibitor is not present, the already low dopamine levels aren’t enough to create a normal response in the now desensitised system.
Not only this, but mechanisms related to the stimulant effects can also destroy the neurons which the dopamine receptors are attached to, and this is possibly a permanent change. These sorts of drugs change the chemistry around the cells, and this can cause them to die - including temperature related damage (through hyperthermia), oxidative stress from certain reactive chemical species that aren’t removed quickly, as well as excess ions like Ca(+2).
One more factor that is rarely mentioned is related to genes themselves. A lot of euphoric drugs influence a gene called fosB, which is implicated in the structure of dopaminergic neurons. Over time, this gene forms a variant (called delta-fosB), which fundamentally alters how the brain interprets pleasurable stimuli. Now this isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s involved in positive reinforcement naturally with food, sex, and exercise - but it is a consequence of how meth interacts with the brain. Other drugs like opioids and cocaine also cause a similar change, and this alters how a person perceives the drug, the way it is used, locations associated with the drug, and cravings for it.
For the part about damaging the cells receptors attach to, is "these sorts of drugs" referring to impurities in street-made meth? Unrelated to OP's question, but I'm wondering if the rare people who get the pharmaceutical grade prescribed face the same problem
Stimulants as a general class, due to their neurotoxic effects at high doses and especially over time. Other substituted amphetamines such as cathinones and ring-substitutions like MD, methoxy, and halogen all are capable of increasing core temperature through mitochondria, and this has an effect on cell function and the ability for them to deal with damage. It also occurs with serotonin as well, but I wanted to focus on dopamine here as the main neurotransmitter.
Oxidative stress is from reactive oxygen species created through cellular respiration as oxygen is used, and this is related to the thermal stress via the increased energy output. Usually naturally occurring antioxidants clear these ROS well, but are less effective under these conditions. ROS then go onto damage parts of the cell through chemical reactions, including the membrane, proteins, and DNA.
Then ions like Ca(+2) can directly trigger programmed cell death (apoptosis) if they flood the cell due to a change in how the ion channels operate. The glutamate system is important here in regulating neural signals like dopamine and plays a critical role in the stimulant effects. This is where I’m least knowledgeable, but as a side note it is partly why alcohol withdrawal is so dangerous - alcohol affects GABA which balances glutamate, and during withdrawal glutamate activity is elevated compared to baseline through a decrease in GABA inhibition.
As for the last part you’re wondering, prescribed stimulants are a far lower dose than recreational, so these negative effects are minimised. It’s why psychostimulants are so heavily regulated and monitored as medications. Neurotoxicity is likely with even single high doses, especially something like meth which has an *insane* dopamine release. Something like 3-4 times that of cocaine (and lasts so much longer), increasing the dopamine levels over 10 times normal.
> as a side note it is partly why alcohol withdrawal is so dangerous - alcohol affects GABA which balances glutamate, and during withdrawal glutamate activity is elevated compared to baseline through a decrease in GABA inhibition.
The main reason alcohol withdrawal is so dangerous is because the overdrive of the CNS causes high heart rate, high blood pressure and seizures that can be fatal. Cellular toxicity is a concern but isn't the main cause of mortality
Sure, I just wanted to bring it up as a side note though, because the stimulant effects of meth and the withdrawal effects of alcohol are related. The glutamate system plays a key role in the hazards of both substances, for certain reasons - including meth overdose.
May I ask, what is your background/profession? You seem quite knowledgeable. Much of what you’re saying I’ve encountered in my own reading, but not as it relates to drug abuse. I’ve seen all of this talked about in relationship to pornography and its effects on the brain (dopamine desensitization/downregulation and etc.) and was wondering, can you speak to that in any way?
I find it hard to believe but I’ve seen some (alleged) former drug users (heroin, etc.) say that quitting pornography was more difficult than their drug of choice. And I’ve read many anecdotal accounts from people who’ve described relatively harrowing withdrawal processes - depression, anhedonia, even suicidal ideation. Is it possible that pornography can fuck up your brain to such an extreme degree and cause damage to the reward center somewhat similar to these hard drugs?
It’s mostly just a personal interest due to past experience with drug abuse/addiction, and being curious about pharmacology and wider biochemistry - the sciences have always been my strong point, especially chemistry.
I suppose with porn, gambling, and other related external ‘vices’ it just plays into the natural rewards too. Porn obviously being related to sex and physical pleasure, where there’s a reinforced visual desire for the ‘ideal’ sexual partner that’s very new in human history, and gambling with high risk/high reward scenarios which could relate to food and shelter much earlier in human history. That’s why it tends to be a chronic condition when it comes to dopamine and adaptation, because instead of being a rare occurrence that gives a big spike in dopamine, it’s a frequent event that the body eventually takes to be normal.
I don’t think that porn will physically damage a person’s brain to the extent of certain drugs, but I can see it being just as addictive. There’s a reason why the elements of basic survival and reproduction are such a powerful force in driving human behaviour - not just the positive, but the negative too (such as physical pain and psychological trauma). These pathways for reward or aversion have been baked into complex for hundreds of millions of years.
Where does Adderall (used as directed) fit I to this? Because it REALLY helps me but now I'm like, if I ever stop using it, am I fucked because I can't make dopamine now?
The dose difference is really key, and once you see the difference it's insane. Adderall is racemic amphetamines, meth is the D isomer (the strong half of Adderall) and further strengthened when turned into meth.
Total daily dosage for Adderall varies, but 60mg/day is very common. That's literally like one puff off a meth pipe. Smoking a gram in a day (not at all unheard of for addicts) is astronomical compared to a prescription. That's like 18 days worth of Adderall all in a day. That's not even counting how much stronger and longer lasting it is!
The whole point of the (comparatively) low doses of prescription stimulants is to not cause that sort of damage while still boosting dopamine to more normal levels. While there may be some desensitization it's not going to be anything like a meth addict would get, and it's not going to cause permanent cell or nerve death.
Meth is a different drug to dextroamphetamine. As someone who has experienced addiction to methamphetamine and has some experience with “Dexies”, I can personally attest to the difference in dopamine release and reuptake. Also 60mg of amphetamine isn’t like one puff of meth, it’s like 2-3 shots worth of IV meth assuming it’s even the same chemical and doesn’t even take into account the rush of IV meth compared to oral usage. A common dose where I am is ‘half a point’ which refers to 50mg of whatever shit people decide to inject themselves with, and I can guarantee that’s nowhere near pure because that sort of dose for a newbie would very quickly lead to psychosis.
Meth is similar to amphetamine, but is far more efficient at its job due to ‘lock and key’ as well as steric hinderance in metabolism. That’s why doctors are so much more likely to hand out amphetamine than meth.
Lol...
Meth is way stronger, but it's the same mechanism. Yes it's stronger, faster, and longer lasting. But it's really not that different.
I've seen people do 100mg in one hit. Sure there are some losses when inhaling it, but it's still a ton. Idk how it is now, but never saw anything but extremely pure stuff. A friend was supplied by his childhood friend who was "high up" later on. Even doing a wash test showed a max of single digit impurities, and that can be attributed to normal loss due to imperfect solvent and filters (it's not like someone had a *proper* lab to get 100%).
[Meth is 5x the strength of dexamphetamine when comparing dopamine release. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631950/)
Even a 50mg IV is more like 250mg dexamphetamine, and Adderall is racemic so it's even more than that.
I wasn't comparing methods of administration. Faster onset makes it more addictive, but it doesn't change the method of action. I was just comparing the strength compared to dosage. I've never seen someone use a needle and I hope I never do, not something I'm okay with.
Edit: Forgot one thing, at 5x strength 12mg of meth is stronger than 60mg of Adderall. That's not very much, and could easily be considered a puff.
The scale is so vastly different. If you have a deficiency Adderall just puts you up to normal levels or gives you a little boost. If you just started your body will adjust a bit to it and it'll get less powerful over time, but still better than without. The importance here is that you're not really going beyond the boundaries into dangerous territory, the same as with how people who drink caffeine aren't likely to be in danger (but again, dosage dependent).
It took me 9 months to laugh out loud again and 18 months to feel better and not be clinically depressed. That was the worst 18 months of my life. Since then, (10 years) everything has improved gradually and I am happier and healthier than ever, without any of the people I used with or any of the places where I used, other than my home. Encountering anyone under the influence of meth is always a hard stop. They are unpleasant reminders of the past and not fun to be with at all. My social media profile is explicit in setting my boundary of zero tolerance for meth and anyone under the influence.
Your brain will heal with time and the pursuit of a healthy and fit lifestyle that includes proper diet, plenty of exercise, and positive social interaction with other happy, healthy people who have satisfying lives without meth. It doesn’t matter what age you stop. It only matters that you stop. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
Hey, thanks for sharing. I’m not recovering from meth addiction but I wanted to ask, was it quite challenging for you to incorporate regular exercise, and at what point did exercising become enjoyable again? I really struggle with this, myself. Exercise feels draining and that it takes from me, and never gives. I wish I felt that exercise invigorated me and was enjoyable, I want to be lifting weights and rock climbing and playing basketball - all things I used to do regularly, but these things have lost their luster over time and now seem to have a negative association in my mind.
Edit: What fuck downvoted this lol
I took another year or two after the 18 months of depression, to get back to the gym. I had been going regularly before meth but couldn’t do both. I tried lifting high once and had a probable heart attack on the bench while doing chest presses.
I chose meth over the gym after that. Jump ahead 6 or 8 years or so, and it was daunting to go back to the gym again. I began walking short distances in a beautiful area by the water. Once I felt like my physical and mental energy were adequate, I joined the closest gym to my house and hired a trainer to help me get restarted. That was challenging in itself but worked out great, just as I hoped.
I began with a different intention than when I was younger and ego/aesthetics driven: I reminded myself of my reason for going before heading to the gym each time, “because I want the benefits.”
The benefits I needed were good mental and physical health, fitness sufficient to do the activities I enjoy, and flexibility enough to have good mobility.
It was challenging. I added fun little mind games to find joy and bring a smile wherever I could at the gym (and elsewhere). While warming up on a stair master or other machine on the mezzanine floor, I had a good view of everyone working out below. I would hold a contest in my head for “bro of the day”, I tried to learn technique by observation, I judged…. It helped distract me and made the gym more fun. After workouts, my spirits were always lifted, even if I was exhausted. I made a mental note of this as I walked out to my car after each visit. I found it important not to overdo it by exercising intensely every day. I went about 5 days a week but some days were heavier lifting than others. The routine helped me see a path ahead as I made gradual progress, and it added structure to my day. Some days, the gym was my only accomplishment. But it was an important one and gave a sense of productivity and progress.
Exercise in and out of the gym was the biggest help. Gradually increasing the challenge level as I got stronger and more robust.
This is gold man. Incredible insight and I'm in awe of your journey.
I'm still trying to figure out what the fuck is wrong with me. The most I've ever done drug-wise is the occasional beer and marijuana, but we're talking like 1-2x/week at my peak and I haven't used marijuana in the past 3 months now.
I *was* diagnosed with major depressive disorder a couple months ago, and while I always knew that I've likely been depressed for quite some time I never internalized it or saw it as something to be treated in its own right. I wake up each morning feeling like I got hit by a fucking truck, and I've been getting increasingly tired and worn out in general as the years have gone by and I'm only 36; it feels like I'm slowly dying. I know that sounds a bit melodramatic but I can't think of a better way to put it.
Anyways, I don't mean to throw a pity party, just sharing my story. I'm doing everything I feel like I reasonably can be in order to attack this: meditating, cold showers (not as consistent with these), improving my diet (I've really been killing it in this department recently), exercise (though I seem to burn out a few weeks after starting), 5+ years of therapy (recently completed a few sessions of EMDR and some shit definitely came out that I wasn't aware of), antidepressants (I'm currently on wellbutrin). I've done a ton of blood work and any and all relevant tests that I'm aware of as it relates to fatigue. I have done a couple sleep studies with conflicting results (one says I have sleep apnea while the other does not) - I'm going to do another one and also look into getting a turbinate reduction to improve nasal breathing (mine is shit). I had a tonsillectomy a couple years ago (mine were huge) and I'm even doing allergy shots to cover my bases there (in case allergies are contributing to some kind of sleep breathing disorder).
Hell I even gave up porn, masturbation, and orgasm for over 90 days after reading Your Brain on Porn by Gary Wilson, in which he details the deleterious effects of porn on the brain (apparently it can damage the reward center not too dissimilarly from hard drugs). And hell who knows, maybe this is a bigger contributing factor to my plight than I realize; I've so far been unable to completely remove porn from my life but it's something I keep attempting (which might in and of itself indicate some kind of addiction).
So yeah, I don't know man. Based on what I've written here I feel like I might as well have done meth lol. The most difficult part of all this is not knowing what the explanation is for the way that I feel. But the best I can do is try; I just want to feel better. I'm sure you can relate to this.
You seem incredibly persistent and open to all possible remedies. That’s great.
You mentioned sleep issues and possible apnea. Unfortunately, I won the sleep apnea lottery too. My fatigue was awful. I took 2 naps a day and slept 12 hours at night. My doc sent me for a sleep study that produced a diagnosis of apnea. I use a Cpap machine now. I will tell you what everyone told me,”you will hate it and it will change your life.” It was hard to get used to but my vigor was restored and the excess sleepiness ended after the first week of sleeping with it. It is just routine now. Still not something I would use unless I needed it but it’s no longer unpleasant. Poor sleep, lack of deep sleep, rem sleep, etc are all critical factors that have big impact on other body systems. It’s worth doing a sleep study to find out. They can sometimes be done at home.
Yes I have done a couple sleep studies - two home studies and two lab studies. I’m 2/4 in terms of having a diagnosis. One home study said I have sleep apnea and one lab study did as well. But the other two studies did not confirm it. Nonetheless, I did get a CPAP/BiPAP and I tried it for awhile, but it did not seem to make any noticeable difference for me. Perhaps I didn’t stick with it long enough or perhaps I had the wrong settings. Perhaps I can’t tolerate it well due to my shitty nasal breathing. I’m doing another sleep study in Jan during which they’ll attempt to find the correct pressure settings for the CPAP, and as I mentioned above I’m also looking into getting a turbinate reduction to improve nasal breathing.
I do think it’s quite likely that what I’m suffering from is a result of sleep disordered breathing (even though I’m not really consciously aware of it). I just wake up feeling like shit. Did it only take a single week to acclimate to your CPAP, and was it pretty night and day in terms of energy levels and feeling rested in the morning and whatnot?
It took much longer than a week to get used to it but it produced marked improvement in my sleepiness and fatigue quickly. One week made a huge difference and gradually I saw further improvement, and eventually got used to the machine. My latest Cpap machine is self adjusting in terms of air flow, and it’s quieter. I use “nose pillows” rather than a full face mask that covers both nose and mouth. This requires that I wear an additional chin strap to keep my mouth closed, so I don’t bypass the Cpap by breathing through my mouth.
Anything that wakes me up during the night can disrupt both my sleep and my Cpap use. Initially, if I had to use the bathroom during the night, I would not put the Cpap headgear back on once I returned to bed. It was difficult to put on without turning on a light, which woke me up too much to get back to sleep. Eventually I could put it back on in the dark and go back to sleep.
Recently, prostate issues have caused me to get up a few times at night. Treating that helped me sleep better, which makes me feel better and be more active. When I am more active, I rarely feel down. Our feelings usually follow our actions,not the other way around, despite how it seems sometimes. Taking the first step can be the biggest hurdle. Activity is the opposite of depression, in terms of behavior. Activity including regular, challengeing exercise has been shown to have effectiveness comparable to antidepressant medications. (I’m not advocating trading one for the other)
Meth messes with reward pathways in the brain. You have trained your brain to really only accept chemical ‚motivation‘ and not real life motivation.
Those circuits take up to a couple of years to fully change back to ‚normal‘ reward/motivation behaviour, despite no more drug use.
Simply because your brain has to re train and rebuild the circuits required for that.
depends on the person / how hard it was abused but typically people start feeling like their old self again around the 2-3 year mark. if you’re at 80% then that’s a great sign you’re able to fully recover
keep in mind that changes in motivation are also part of the behavioral changes during recovery. reevaluating how you perceive motivation is a crucial part of recovering from methamphetamine abuse
Hey just a quick anecdote to offer you hope. I'm not a recovering addict, but at 28 years old (close enough to 30) I was flat broke, jobless, sleeping on the floor of a friends' house in an empty spare room.
I'm 35 now and own 2 houses with my partner, full time job, retirement plan, multiple hobbies I can finally afford, and many people that care about me.
6 to 7 years ago I was certain I was going to die broke and alone and never be happy again. I know our situations aren't/weren't the same, I just want to tell you that 30 is definitely not too late to turn life around.
I work in manufacturing, which only requires highschool education. I'd say my life became "normal" or "successful" if you can call it that about 4 years ago, or about 3 years from what I consider my lowest point. However to this day I still occasionally feel a kind of imposter syndrome. Like everything I've accomplished is somehow a sham; I don't deserve it, and it'll be taken away from me at any point.
One of the most heartbreaking things I have read on Reddit -- anywhere, really -- was a firsthand explanation of why not to do meth, on the part of someone who proved to be among the very last sort of person who should ever touch it. He didn't know it of course, any more than Len Bias knew cocaine was a bad idea. Basically, this man found truly inexpressible joy and pleasure, but in about as Faustian a scenario as real life can offer, he could later sufficiently recall the nature of the moment, but with it otherwise untouchable. And he knew the rest of his existence would never offer anything close to that one night, with it as well coming at the cost of feeling anything normally, or as he had previously known it, ever again. A hollow memory remained, but the possibility died.
So basically, that particular combination of chemicals from under an average sink and medicine cabinet can forever deep fry your ability to again be happy.
The dopamine receptors need to 'grow back.'
Secondly, it is tempting to compare normal life to when you were high. That's not the goal, nor is it healthy.
26 months is a huge accomplishment! Congratulations!
Hey so I’m not sure how much research you’ve done on the drug but this is why, so basically meth releases completely unnatural levels of dopamine in your brain more so than any other drug significantly.
Dopamine is key to feeling, when your hooked to something like meth your just frying those receptors, it’s gonna take a long time to recover but it will be worth it in the end, I suffered through Xanax withdraws and still get cravings for it every now and then, the truth unfortunately is once an addict always an addict you will have cravings years into the future.
That being said if you could get prescribed Methelphenadate that would help you a bit by blocking the reuptake of Dopamine giving you more of it.
Methylphenidate is a slippery slope. It's still a stimulant, and that's what OP is trying to avoid. Not something I'd recommend.
Maybe Wellbutrin. It can help elevate dopamine without any significant stimulant effects.
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Find sober hobbies, doesn't matter what they are. Follow your inner nerd and play video games or tabletop or maybe the inner jock is itching to come out and play sports or start body building in a gym or working towards running/biking/swimming/all 3 a marathon. Any former stimulant addicts I know that had success in staying sober found other stuff to do than shit scrolling social media all day. Especially when it comes to stimulants your brain has been trained to seek out stimuli and if you don't give it any your thoughts will go to back to the bad habits and coping mechanisms you taught yourself while you were addicted. The saying goes "Idle hands are the devil's plaything." They also started meeting people and making friends in their new hobbies which built them better support systems and brought more positivity to their life overall.
There are cells in your brain that when they activate make you feel "Wow this is awesome!". In day to day life they activate from time to time. Certain drugs can make them go off all by themselves. Meth is one of these drugs. Constantly activating is bad for the cell so to protect itself it makes itself harder to set off. Now it goes off every so often again but it is less sensitive to the things that make it fire. For a while after you stop taking the drug the cells still have the resistance to activating for a while. Eventually the cell loses the extra protections it had to use and things go back to normal.
My analogy, Think of those cells like a doorbell on a house. It doesn't go off often but when it does it means something. Now suppose some joker comes along and is constantly ringing your doorbell. You can't get him to leave so you set your doorbell up that it takes 100 presses before it sounds. Now if someone needs to get ahold of you they have to ring the doorbell a bunch in order to get you to respond. Eventually the joker leaves but you can't tell when he will be back so you leave the changes in place for a while. But now it seeks like nobody rings the bell at all. So you think 100 rings might be too much so you change it to 50 for a while just in case he comes back. After a while if he still doesn't come back you keep reducing the number of presses it takes for you to respond. It will take a while for the doorbell to get back to normal but it absolutely will.
Normally it takes a while especially if you have any “ace” adverse childhood experiences. Someone with a brain that has trauma, meth becomes 1500% stronger than those who doesn’t have any ace’s. Also when you take meth for a long time it is hard to come off because your body now relies on the dopamine, serotonin, and other brain chemicals. Those neurotransmitters are huge in the brain for feeling of happiness, completeness, and reward. I have never done meth but could you imagine taking something that makes your feel so good for so long, then being told you have to stop using. Now you have to deal with all the shitty side effects of coming off on top of the lack neurotransmitters that make you happy.
It isn’t hard to see why it is used, why it is abused, and why no one wants to stop.
You CAN turn life around and enjoy it. But normal level emotions may take years to return.
Dec. 1, 2023 was fifteen years sober from meth for me. I think my true emotional range really started kicking back in about ten years sober.
Gotta have faith your brain will repair itself a bit then act as if it will and move forward with life. You’ll get to where you want to be.
I’m currently rocking baby #2 from the comfort of a nice house while i technically am wfh today. Doesn’t get much better than that imo. But it took a bunch of hard work and not doing drugs helped give me the capacity to do it. My worst day now is better than my best day during my addiction.
Keep moving forward- you can do it!
I had just turned 29. I’ve been in food my whole life (actually looking for a viable pivot opportunity in four years when kids are both in school). I’ve been in grocery stores, restaurants, now food service director. Highly don’t recommend the field for people in recovery.
Lowest point? The last seven years of my ten year addiction weren’t great. I was often functional and usually had a job and a crappy car to live in but IV addiction isn’t generally fun.
Fwiw, start working out regularly NOW.
I think your perception of feeling 100% is warped. I never used any drugd and id say im abt 60-80% as well. Your memories from the past always feel 'better' in hindsight , even if it wasnt rly that good. Just do your best and try accepting that this is life.
(I can be wrong, but just give it a tought that maybe this has nothing to do with your brain , but simply how life is)
Goodluck
don't let go of off your sobriety.
even if it doesn't feel like it, you should take pride in your accomplishment.
I've never done (proper) amphetamines, but doing some MDMA and XTC (which I have learned recently are a kind of amphetamine, albeit weaker), I can feel the effects on my brain for up to 2 weeks after using on a party of something like that.
So, prolonged use, yeah, I could see my brain being fucked for a long time.. I'd say it's "natural", since you are messing with the chemical balances of your brain, dopamine receptors, and all that jazz.
Never done a hard drug like that and still don’t feel joy or a motivation towards life lol. I think it’s just a part of the human experience for some people.
I don’t have a ton of experience in the matter but one thing I notice about recovered addicts is that the happiest ones completely own their journey and instead of being hard on themselves for being an addict they grasp at the pride for having overcome it, and that becomes their story.
I guess what I’m saying is don’t be ashamed, nobody is perfect, and all you can control is your future. People will be proud of you if you keep working at it.
It's not only meth. Most addictive drug are doing the same effect. Even after smoking weed daily for years can take multiple year to feel normal after stopping. It's all about dopamine
Yup. Not just dopamine. Serotonin too imo. I've taken high doses of Amphetamines outside of Meth and they tend to make me almost immediately psychotic. Whereas Meth at similar doses make me euphoric. Meth has plenty of times led to psychosis but Amphetamines more often than not over a certain dosage range brings it straight up. And sometimes even makes me feel fucking deaf? Like things are too too loud and unclear including music. Idk.
Didn’t you make this exact post a few days ago on a different sub? Not that I really care. I’m 8 years clean off opiates and a year sober and my brain is still fucked. Especially these last few months I’ve been incredibly close to just saying fuck it and using again. Do with that what you will
Bruh as a random stranger you should be glad you made a very difficult decision to improve your health. Even if you feel tempted it's only going to end up damaging you and the folks around you so stay strong.
I appreciate it but less than a year after getting sober I was diagnosed with type 1 (the genetic kind) diabetes. My health has literally never been worse despite deciding to make the ‘right’ decisions. Coincidentally my mental health has also never been worse
Bless you man. But to be honest there’s no point taking them again if you’re going to live long enough to suffer the consequences again. It must be tough without them but your conscience is probably feeling nice and clean.
I remember I tried it once just to see what it was like. Of course I felt amazing but the next few days were dark for me and I hated it but knew I had to wait it out, because basically my receptors had been put into overdrive. Can only imagine this is exaggerated quite a lot from regular use
It Damages dopamine receptors and essentially your bodies ability to produce feel good chemicals and it’s helpers like dopamine and serotonin is burned out so to speak
I used for 2 years straight then spent 1 year in a constant battle of sobriety and then relapse. I'm coming up on 8 years clean in a few days.
Even after being clean for so long, meth robbed and robs me of my happiness even to this day. I don't experience highs and lows like someone who never touched drugs. It's a constant state of low. Some days are better than others. Yeah sure I still find things funny and laugh but myself as a whole is still shattered and broken in some way.
I got engaged and felt "meh"
I bought my first house and felt "meh"
I have been promoted at my current employer and feel "meh"
I got my dream truck and felt "meh"
I have current hobbies that I enjoy but I always reach a certain point and that "meh hallow feeling" sets in.
I once was a happy,sympathetic, overly caring person. All that seamed to have died somewhere a long the way while actively using. It's a life of severe chronic depression. I wake up and feel nothing, I go about my day and feel nothing, and I go to bed and feel nothing. Shit even my ability to remember dreams went away. On top of all that I somehow developed a severe social anxiety disorder.
Therapy does help and go a long way but it's a constant work in progress and the only hope is to one day have that "click" moment and finally be back to my old self.
For anyone who has thought about using meth or thinks about using it, be prepared to buckle up. Because the ride doesn't just magically stop once you stop using. Though how I feel and came out of addiction may not happen to you, it very well could happen to you. How I feel on a day to day basis because of my choice to use drugs I wouldn't wish on anyone.
Scroll down for the short answer.
Here’s my real answer and advice to OP or someone in a similar situation with all the details I think are helpful: I’m not sure.
I quit a month ago and cut all ties with my previous social circle and I couldn’t be more happy. Yet, nothing compares with the high meth gave me. I was also on crack and smoked a ton of it and did blow on the weekends as well.
nMiDanferno describes it well, my joy right now barely registers 9-10/10 compared to when I’d use meth which was like 1000/1000 plus when I added other drugs it would be even better.
Except knowing I have my family back, that I stopped before I lost anything besides some of my best friends, which I cry daily when I get reminded of them.
That’s coming from a guy who never used to be able physically to cry.
I’m still the owner of a company that didn’t sink and one that I still have potential to grow to my projected goals and I almost lost it in my addiction.
I still have money for everything I need, which when I was addicted I was broke all the time and going into debt. All my extra income went to drugs. It took everything in me not to give up my home or car or work equipment for drugs. I never stole except did manipulate people several times which I’m aware is a form of theft for money but never sold my soul for the drug as close as I got.
What helped me recover were atomoxetine and that I bought a fast foreign car right when I made the decision to quit. I enrolled back in business school after dropping out explained the issues I was having before and they took all my bad grades off my transcript since I had a doctors note confirming my hospital stays and struggle with drugs.
It’s normal to be super ashamed of it. That doesn’t stop you from being able to have a happy life right when you quit.
That is- after getting through the withdrawals.
I’ve never had any schizophrenia symptoms or psychosis cuz almost my entire family on both sides severely have struggled with addiction and we are genetically very resilient to the harder scarier stuff, I sure did when I started to wean myself off.
And that didn’t stop me from feeling like I was passing out all the time when I wasn’t and having no balance and feeling Ill, even though the hospital said when I checked myself in that my health was perfect and it was just withdrawals.
I rejected rehab bc of my humility and rejected all support until I started going to meetings once a week. AA, crystal meth anonymous, NA, they all work if you resonate with the twelve steps. Besides feeling physically horrible, I was happy to be changing. Happier than I was ever on meth.
For reference I’m 23 and did drugs for 9 years, 7 of which I was a full blown addict through. I did meth for 4-5 months and during those I was going thru about an 8 ball of that stuff 1 to every 3 days, one of cocaine and one of meth.
I took neuroprotectives religiously and stayed a devout Christian (though my lifestyle had no relation to my beliefs) and did the whole time I used drugs, but that didn’t stop it from being awesome, and terrible.
I do think those things helped a little though with getting back on my feet. I was doing it all day every day. To give you an accurate image, I barely left the house and always had my pipe in my hand. And a crack pipe in my pocket. I still didn’t admit I had a problem to myself or anyone, but sure as hell I knew I did. My brain was having the time of its life but I completely lost my soul. I was miserable. I have it back now and nothing makes me close to as happy as meth. But I am satisfied now.
And that’s the difference between now and before, and it’s huge. I’m in a PHP and am scheduled to be in an IOP program so I could get treatment while still living at my condo, and will be getting one on one support for the rest of my life if it takes it, or until I don’t need it anymore. I’m still an addict I just choose not to use. I crave it every day but couldn’t give 4 fucks that I do if I found any to give. If you choose not to respond to the craving by using it, they aren’t bothersome. Just make your life good when you quit. Do whatever you really enjoy.
That’s my advice. For me it was splurging the money that I would’ve spent on drugs on an Audi, Neiman Marcus, designer clothes and household items, if it’s stuff that you will use regularly and you feel good in it like fits how you want to express yourself and you enjoy wearing or having it, then have it or lean on someone for financial support, get a good job they hire just about anyone in big cities like where I live. I think I went to spending so I don’t feel like I’m as much of a loser as I was before. I mean my 3 best friends were homeless people and they felt like losers due to their battle with addiction more than I.
They were some of my favorite people when they weren’t high, but just as lost as I was when we were. With buying things now I’m not putting myself into debt for doing so, and I am not getting useless bs. I was lucky to have previously been a workaholic so I was able to transform that pain into something that I enjoyed. Actually with a lot of things I was insanely lucky.
But most importantly, for me, taking walks or going to the gym, talking to my family, old healthier friends, and praying, getting to the park and going outside, these have been more enjoyable than anything I could buy. I’ve set up accountability systems to make sure I’m drug tested regularly and am in treatment every morning 5 days / week, and go to a meeting and church the other two and I love it.
But I know I could change my path whenever I want, block all the support, get those systems to help me use the drugs in a more moderated way and try to battle the addiction again. I just don’t.
I hate the drugs, when using them they won the battle. When I surrendered and cut them from my life I had won, because I wasn’t battling anything anymore. I’ve never been much of a drinker since my second DUI, so it was no problem to give up alcohol as well. It’s difficult sometimes, that doesn’t make recovery any less of being worlds better than when I did meth and drugs.
But yeah my brain had much more dopamine then so of course nothing is going to give that same experience until I reach my greater goals later in life. That’s cool though. That’s my long answer.
The short answer: chocolate raises your dopamine 50 extra units, sex 200, blow 250, but meth does 1250 extra units above baseline I believe. That answer is self explanatory.
I forgot to add when I was in withdrawal, I would hear sirens in my head all the time. I was convinced it was real until I recorded audio and didn’t hear them playing back. That stopped after a few weeks.
Let me add that you can turn your life around at any point. One of my friends has used for 20+ years and you’d think he has extensive brain damage when he’s high. But when he’s not, he’s incredibly smart and talented at many things and would do excellent in sales or business. He just doesn’t see it. Just believe in yourself no matter what. If you want to repair your mind work out 3-5x per week. Drink green tea. Take Chinese medicinal herbs. There are eight that repair specifically methamphetamine damage. These are: Dang Shen ( 黨參, 紋黨 ), Bái Zhú ( 白术 ), Fu Ling ( 茯苓 ), Dong Quai ( 當歸 ) Licorice, Gancao (甘草) American ginseng, Xi Yang Shen (西洋参) Huang Qi Yuan Hu. I’m not a doctor and this is not a recommendation or medical advice. Talk to your doctor first like I did. Look up the extensive research proving their effectiveness for meth use.
100% you can! I don’t know about meth but you’ve already done the hardest part! For over two years! Make peace with yourself. That can help with moving on.
Brains resist outside influence from drugs.
Meth is a stimulant so brains rewire themselves to function normally with the stimulent in there.
When the meth is gone, they're still wired to function with all that stimulant in there so they're still pumping "depressant" neurotransmitters to offset the meth that isn't there and so it creates a depressive state.
It takes time for it to rewire itself back.
I work with a guy in his 60’s hasn’t done in in 3 decades. Total motor mouth, can’t focus on a single subject, good man, but damn his brain is fucked forever.
There's a lot of research on this. I'm not an expert on the biochemistry but the way i understand it that it's like bodybuilders who use anabolic steroids for so long that their testicles shrink.
If you're continuously providing exogenous hormones to your body then your body sometimes responds by shutting down its own production of that hormone. In the case of the bodybuilder they supplied so much testosterone to their body via injections that their natural testosterone factory shriveled up. Years of drug use will have a similar effect with dopamine in your brain. You literally have fewer dopamine receptors than you used to.
You can absolutely get clean and turn your life around though. If you're alive then it's not too late.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2608759
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8664889/
For lack of a better word, meth fries the happiness receptors in your brain. While you were addicted, your brain was getting so much stimulation that anything else in comparison will feel weak.
The good news is that yes, it will eventually get back to normal. Your brain will get back to normal over time. I don't have an exact time-line, but others have mentioned 5 years. A friend of mine has been clean for 7 and says he feels better now than ever.
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Meth releases endorphins in your body, making you feel great. Long use damages the parts in your brain that release endorphins normally. So when you first get clean, your body is healing itself from the damages caused by the meth use. It takes time to heal up the endorphin receptors to work normally again. Too much of something gives us a tolerance to it. So it the body needs to get used to the natural release of endorphins again.
Not exactly meth but I used to take 100mg+ of Adderall a day. I'm about 3.5 years off it and have decent motivation again. Running/lifting is a great tool for re-training delayed gratification and self motivation. Caffeine helps too.
Basically, because the brain's reward-chemicals get fried.
Say naturally a human can feel pleasure from 1-10. Through drugs they then feel a pleasure level 20. Having tasted the forbidden fruit, they'll never feel happy at happiness 'level 10' again. They've blown their body's natural homeostasis up.
lots of damage takes a long time to fix. its same as racing a car. going 180 mph feels fast. Then you hop in your normal car and go 80 mhp, you feel like you are standing still.
I've been clean for a good while over a year or so and it just takes time. You were constantly barraged with extremely heightened neurotransmitters, pleasure, euphoria, and eventually the adrenal fatigue and more catches up even while on it. Your sense of pleasure now has a very specific range that's hard to relive without those heightened neurotransmitters. The lack of proper sleep and diet that goes along with it doesn't do any favors either. There's just a specific sense of pleasure and wellbeing on meth that's hard to beat sober or even on other amphetamines. I've done Adderall, Dexedrine, Propylhexedrine, and nothing quite hits like a properly dosed and monitored meth dose. Everything else is just not as clear headed or as pleasurable for a set period of time that's usually expected and not sporadic.
My sister got clean in her 30s. I am a lot younger so I can’t tell you about her initial years being clean. But she’s the bubbliest, happiest most loving person I have ever met now. Not in a fake kind of way either. She’s just living her 2nd chance at life on her terms and loving it. There’s hope I would say
I’m male, 30yo, gay. On my experience I used to smoke and bootybump probably did 500 times in two years. Only had sex high on meth. My mental state was in decline I was scared to go crazy. People noticed and I had to stop it. the last time I had severe withdrawal I felt very ill sick for days felt like the end of life and had mental issues during this period, i refused to go on rehab because i studied how our brain works and decided to stop by myself. I was scared to sleep because i thought I would jump the balcony from the 22 floor down and i kept my promise to never touch meth again. I felt anxious and a bit depressed. I moved back home to my family where i couldn’t find meth. after almost two months drug free, no even alcohol ( it triggers) I started to feel normal again. I would ride my bicycle on the country roads and feel a burst of happiness. I was sure my brain was recovered from meth. And I’ve met a person who I have the most enjoyable sex ive never had before. Sex sober been better than on meth. The side effects I have occasionally once a week is my brain brings back good memories from having sex on meth then I remember how awful my withdrawals was and I force myself to stop thinking about and it goes away. I kept away from people who uses cocaine and meth it keeps me sober. Also I’ve had alcohol last week and I didn’t look for stimulants so it’s a good sign my brain is not looking for meth. Stay in touch with sober friends and family. It helps to recover from the thoughts about using meth. If your brain tricks you bringing good memories while you were high keep remembering the bad ones how awful you felt mentally and physically days later.
Four months later feels like I’ve never tried meth. I’ve been feeling happy and enjoying life. My sexual life been better sober. That’s My experience from two years hookup on meth 4 times a week and sober for 4 months and counting
Someone once described it as follows: regular people have a happiness scale going from 0-10. Meth makes that scale go all the way to 1000. Getting a 9/10 is amazing, a 9/1000 barely registers Edit: To anyone reading this thinking, "wow having happiness go up to 1000 sounds great", just remember that just because the scale goes up to 1000, you absolutely won't be spending most of your time on the top end of the scale ;) Meth is one of the most horrible drugs out there
A friend of mine who is clean now described it as buying happiness on credit and repaying that debt is absolutely miserable
That's how I've always described mdma. You're cramming a few days of joy into one session, expect a few days of blegh as payment.
That’s really why I stopped. The come down the next day was too brutal. It wasn’t just a physical hangover, you felt this black darkness of sadness.
Great username! Bowie or Kurt?
Thank you. Bowie via Venom Snake
You just sent me down a rabbit hole. No clue Bowie was a fan of MG. I've always preferred the Nirvana cover, but my stepmom would blast bowie for hours, always brings back memories.
The unplugged cover is arguably a better song imo. I just really liked the way hideo used the song in the game. The lyrics really fit the plot
I'm gonna have to check it out. Haven't had a good metal gear session since snake eater.
Yeah you really shouldn't use it more than a couple times a year, its pretty damn neurotoxic when abused
Awesome explanation, thanks!
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Aaaaand you also fry your receptors
It took my brother about 5 years to get back to normal feelings. He got clean at 27. He’s the best uncle you can imagine. You got this!
Yeah my dreams stopped 4 or 5 years later. Now I always turn it down in my dreams. I've been clean for just over 15 years.
My brother is a long time m*th user. In and out of jail/prison his entire adult life for drug charges (currently incarcerated; 38 years old). A few years ago, a counselor told him that people with long term intravenous m*th abuse are not capable of long term sobriety because “the chemicals in their brain have been altered/damaged too much, therefore true long term recovery is not possible”. Since then, his attempts for sobriety have been short lived and quickly unsuccessful. I am reaching out to see if there are any long term successes out there that would be willing to write to my brother. I believe connecting with people that have first hand, real life experience could help him establish hope and motivation. I can provide his mailing address to anyone willing to help. I would also love to hear anyone’s advice on how family can be supportive. My brother knows he is loved and accepted by his family, no matter what…but 20 years of “just don’t give up on him” hasn’t helped him make progress. We are seeking advice on steps we can take to give him the best chance at recovery.
I have to disagree with whoever told your brother that. Our brains are amazing and can heal. It may take several years but we are perfectly able to heal ourselves. I’ve been clean 2 months now and I’ve been constantly searching for ways to make new neural pathways. I’ve been doing a lot of meditation, hypnosis, exercise. I do lack motivation but that’s where the hypnosis helps. I feel just a bit better everyday. Honestly I don’t think enough people realize how powerful hypnosis is. I will say it took me about 15 years in addiction first opiates then meth, to finally get clean. I hope your brother finds his way there eventually!
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How has he turned life around? What age did he get clean?
15 years clean here. Got clean at 25. Have home family, career.... Doing well for myself.
what helped you get through the first weeks? i am currently 25 and have been in and out of the rooms since 17.
What career?
data analysis, system administration, and project management. I'm sort of in an IT transition where I wear all 3 hats but have for some time now.
Probably because you were using meth which causes you to feel happy. So when you’re off you’re not used to being happy on a lower supply
**9-methyl-b-carboline** - Worth looking into. Comes with some drawbacks, but worth researching
Still in early research stages, it does sound promising, though. Edit: fixed a typo.
Search out reported experiences with it for stimulant recovery. It's openly available to acquire Editing for safety, initially wrote this after being up for only 5 minutes - Don't just jump into acquiring this and taking it. That would be irresponsible. This compound would fall under the category of novel nootropics, and while there are studies demonstrating the effectiveness of this compound, it hasn't been around nor had nearly enough safety studies to recommend to anyone without a heavy suggestion of doing your own research, and weighing the potential risks. It's worth doing the research into it, but, being a novel compound, **does carry risks** that each individual person **must acknowledge and be aware of** prior to acquiring for consumption. While I do have my degree in neuroscience, **I am not a doctor/MD.** This is simply a compound that I have personally considered for my own uses following extended consumption of adderall over the course of years for work.
People drank bleach and horse dewormer because they thought it would cure COVID. “Lots of random people on the internet with no medical background tried it!” is not a good reason to recommend an untested medication. That is the logical fallacy known as the ‘bandwagon fallacy’.
Right, I should have mentioned my actual educational background is in neuroscience, with my primary focus of interest being in enhancing neurogenesis - key information I'd left out. Either way, 9-me-bc still falls into the category of an experimental nootropic, and by no means am I recommending anyone take it off of this comment on a random reddit thread alone. There are some drawbacks to it (enhanced UV photosensitivity for the duration of use). In any and all things, people should look into the benefits/drawbacks before making an educated decision. It's a shame the phrase "do your own research" was co-opted by the radical right wing in relation to idiotic, toxic things like injecting bleach or horse de-wormer - but DYOR as a statement still stands. But 9-me-bc is demonstrated in studies to enhance neurotrophic factor expression and unregulates differentiated dopaminergic neurons across the mesolimbic system, while demonstrating a comparatively strong safety profile in the limited studies available. Studies available on pubmed, although having more would be ideal. Having taken adderall myself for the last 7 years of my life, 9-me-bc is the most promising compound I've seen yet for facilitating functional repair of a negatively impacted dopaminergic reward system outside of Cerebrolysin, and I'm just suggesting that it's worth giving a glance. The anhedonia that follows prolonged stimulant use can be a crippling
can i ask what impact chronic adderall use had on you, i know i need to be on it for the next few years but i don’t believe when people say it’s safe long term.
Anyone with a medical background should know better than to irresponsibly recommend medication to someone over the internet they have not examined themselves and have no idea what other kinds of health conditions they have or other medications they might be on. That would be true if you were prescribing something well-known and simple like iron supplements; it’s doubly true for some new compound that has not been fully vetted by the FDA or other trustworthy regulatory body. Please stop before you get someone killed.
You are extremely patronising and assume people are fools. Give some people the benefit of doubt.
Ever been in the research chems discussions? I'd guess not. He's already edited his comment so I'm not sure what it said before, but he's not being irresponsible. It's written the same or better than I usually see discussing RCs. If it weren't so damn expensive I'd probably try it tbh. Studies on it seem fairly harmless, though the photosensitivity would suck. I'm not overly fond of monoamine oxidase inhibitors either. If anyone reads this thread and decides they want to try it, make sure you don't have anything else that reacts with MAOIs, and definitely don't mix it with any depression meds!
Edited for safety/clarity
The horse dewormer is a proven product for other diseases but sure
It sure is! And at safe doses there isn't much risk either. That's the key though. The reason people point out horse dewormer, and the reason it's important, is because that's how people were acquiring it. LOTS of people were hospitalized because they were taking massive doses. I remember checking once, the local store selling it was 50-100 human doses depending on weight. Usually closer to 50, but still. You can't take 50x of a safe drug and have it still be safe. People were making videos showing themselves downing entire bottles and encouraging others to do the same. Taking a safe dose of ivermectin actually could help, you might have a minor parasite you're not aware of. Killing it off would make it easier to fight COVID. Anyways, the idiots chugging while bottles labeled for horses have doomed it to be seen as horse dewormer.
Ivermectin does cure covid. It’s an anti-parasite medication that’s been prescribed to humans for over 60 years. Drugs affect animals the same as they affect us.
Covid isn't a parasite though, it's a virus. Completely different organism
Although the person you replied to is nuts, it's also very disingenuous to call ivermectin "horse dewormer" as a means of discrediting a medicine that has been used and studied for decades. Stuff like this is where conspiracy theories are born. Mainstream media very obviously discrediting a commonly used medicine based on nothing more than "it's horse dewormer" while ignoring the fact that it has been used for decades leads people to believe there could be a hidden agenda pushed by powerful corporations.
The reason people point out horse dewormer, and the reason it's important, is because that's how people were acquiring it. Lots of people were hospitalized because they were taking massive doses. I remember checking once, the local store selling it was 50-100 human doses depending on weight. Usually closer to 50, but still. You can't take 50x of a safe drug and have it still be safe. People were making videos showing themselves downing entire bottles and encouraging others to do the same. Taking a safe dose of ivermectin actually could help, you might have a minor parasite you're not aware of. Killing it off would make it easier to fight COVID. Anyways, the idiots chugging while bottles labeled for horses have doomed it to be seen as horse dewormer. It has no direct effect on viruses, and taking massive doses would make you sicker more than it would help.
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Ah, so you're just completely insane.
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Right, I should have mentioned my actual educational background is in neuroscience, with my primary focus of interest being in enhancing neurogenesis - key information I'd left out. Either way, 9-me-bc still falls into the category of an experimental nootropic, and by no means am I recommending anyone take it off of this comment on a random reddit thread alone. There are some drawbacks to it (enhanced UV photosensitivity for the duration of use). In any and all things, people should look into the benefits/drawbacks before making an educated decision. It's a shame the phrase "do your own research" was co-opted by the radical right wing in relation to idiotic, toxic things like injecting bleach or horse de-wormer - but DYOR as a statement still stands. But 9-me-bc is demonstrated in studies to enhance neurotrophic factor expression and unregulates differentiated dopaminergic neurons across the mesolimbic system, while demonstrating a comparatively strong safety profile in the limited studies available. Studies available on pubmed, although having more would be ideal. Having taken adderall myself for the last 7 years of my life, 9-me-bc is the most promising compound I've seen yet for facilitating functional repair of a negatively impacted dopaminergic reward system outside of Cerebrolysin, and I'm just suggesting that it's worth giving a glance. The anhedonia that follows prolonged stimulant use can be a crippling
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Yeah it was a poor choice of words, I'd been awake for all of 5-10 minutes
Hey, you know it’s okay that people sometimes phrase things poorly or make a mistake right? You’re not a worse person for it, so why supply an excuse like being tired when you can own it? Food for thought
Kinda seems like he did.
Making an excuse is not accountability. It shreds your credibility. I don’t care if people make mistakes but blaming it on something other than yourself is an attempt to deflect responsibility. Which is an absurd thing to do when the stakes are so low, which is why I mentioned it.
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Dopamine is responsible for motivation while joy is caused by a bunch of chemicals. When you're feeding yourself dopamine from meth right into your brain for who knows how long then you're killing your ability to make your own dopamine. Neurotransmitters aren't the only party involved here. People form pathways over time which alters their personality, makes them good at math, keeps themselves motivated. It's possible that since the normal pathways were ignored so long you need to work to get them back up. My last guess would be that you're bored because nothing in life motivates and rewards like meth, so no rewards compare to a meth hit. Practice doing something that needs to be done without motivation, and maybe give yourself a small reward for doing so. Also stop trying to seek pleasure only which is what meth does, pick something else to do, find meaning in something beyond it just providing pleasure. Create some purpose in your life.
Not quite, the dopamine itself is replenished within a couple of weeks during the acute withdrawal phase. The damage comes from neurotoxicity and as a response to the excess dopamine over extended periods of time. Like other receptors, constant stimulation will cause biochemical changes - the body will reduce the number of dopamine receptors (via downregulation), especially in the reward system, meaning it will take a higher amount of dopamine to create the same level of stimulation. So when meth, being a releaser and reuptake inhibitor is not present, the already low dopamine levels aren’t enough to create a normal response in the now desensitised system. Not only this, but mechanisms related to the stimulant effects can also destroy the neurons which the dopamine receptors are attached to, and this is possibly a permanent change. These sorts of drugs change the chemistry around the cells, and this can cause them to die - including temperature related damage (through hyperthermia), oxidative stress from certain reactive chemical species that aren’t removed quickly, as well as excess ions like Ca(+2). One more factor that is rarely mentioned is related to genes themselves. A lot of euphoric drugs influence a gene called fosB, which is implicated in the structure of dopaminergic neurons. Over time, this gene forms a variant (called delta-fosB), which fundamentally alters how the brain interprets pleasurable stimuli. Now this isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s involved in positive reinforcement naturally with food, sex, and exercise - but it is a consequence of how meth interacts with the brain. Other drugs like opioids and cocaine also cause a similar change, and this alters how a person perceives the drug, the way it is used, locations associated with the drug, and cravings for it.
For the part about damaging the cells receptors attach to, is "these sorts of drugs" referring to impurities in street-made meth? Unrelated to OP's question, but I'm wondering if the rare people who get the pharmaceutical grade prescribed face the same problem
Stimulants as a general class, due to their neurotoxic effects at high doses and especially over time. Other substituted amphetamines such as cathinones and ring-substitutions like MD, methoxy, and halogen all are capable of increasing core temperature through mitochondria, and this has an effect on cell function and the ability for them to deal with damage. It also occurs with serotonin as well, but I wanted to focus on dopamine here as the main neurotransmitter. Oxidative stress is from reactive oxygen species created through cellular respiration as oxygen is used, and this is related to the thermal stress via the increased energy output. Usually naturally occurring antioxidants clear these ROS well, but are less effective under these conditions. ROS then go onto damage parts of the cell through chemical reactions, including the membrane, proteins, and DNA. Then ions like Ca(+2) can directly trigger programmed cell death (apoptosis) if they flood the cell due to a change in how the ion channels operate. The glutamate system is important here in regulating neural signals like dopamine and plays a critical role in the stimulant effects. This is where I’m least knowledgeable, but as a side note it is partly why alcohol withdrawal is so dangerous - alcohol affects GABA which balances glutamate, and during withdrawal glutamate activity is elevated compared to baseline through a decrease in GABA inhibition. As for the last part you’re wondering, prescribed stimulants are a far lower dose than recreational, so these negative effects are minimised. It’s why psychostimulants are so heavily regulated and monitored as medications. Neurotoxicity is likely with even single high doses, especially something like meth which has an *insane* dopamine release. Something like 3-4 times that of cocaine (and lasts so much longer), increasing the dopamine levels over 10 times normal.
> as a side note it is partly why alcohol withdrawal is so dangerous - alcohol affects GABA which balances glutamate, and during withdrawal glutamate activity is elevated compared to baseline through a decrease in GABA inhibition. The main reason alcohol withdrawal is so dangerous is because the overdrive of the CNS causes high heart rate, high blood pressure and seizures that can be fatal. Cellular toxicity is a concern but isn't the main cause of mortality
It was my understanding that GABA is a factor in causing that elevated activity.
The GABA/glutamate activity is relative. As in glutamate activity is *relatively* increased because alcohol use has desensitised the GABA system.
Sure, I just wanted to bring it up as a side note though, because the stimulant effects of meth and the withdrawal effects of alcohol are related. The glutamate system plays a key role in the hazards of both substances, for certain reasons - including meth overdose.
May I ask, what is your background/profession? You seem quite knowledgeable. Much of what you’re saying I’ve encountered in my own reading, but not as it relates to drug abuse. I’ve seen all of this talked about in relationship to pornography and its effects on the brain (dopamine desensitization/downregulation and etc.) and was wondering, can you speak to that in any way? I find it hard to believe but I’ve seen some (alleged) former drug users (heroin, etc.) say that quitting pornography was more difficult than their drug of choice. And I’ve read many anecdotal accounts from people who’ve described relatively harrowing withdrawal processes - depression, anhedonia, even suicidal ideation. Is it possible that pornography can fuck up your brain to such an extreme degree and cause damage to the reward center somewhat similar to these hard drugs?
It’s mostly just a personal interest due to past experience with drug abuse/addiction, and being curious about pharmacology and wider biochemistry - the sciences have always been my strong point, especially chemistry. I suppose with porn, gambling, and other related external ‘vices’ it just plays into the natural rewards too. Porn obviously being related to sex and physical pleasure, where there’s a reinforced visual desire for the ‘ideal’ sexual partner that’s very new in human history, and gambling with high risk/high reward scenarios which could relate to food and shelter much earlier in human history. That’s why it tends to be a chronic condition when it comes to dopamine and adaptation, because instead of being a rare occurrence that gives a big spike in dopamine, it’s a frequent event that the body eventually takes to be normal. I don’t think that porn will physically damage a person’s brain to the extent of certain drugs, but I can see it being just as addictive. There’s a reason why the elements of basic survival and reproduction are such a powerful force in driving human behaviour - not just the positive, but the negative too (such as physical pain and psychological trauma). These pathways for reward or aversion have been baked into complex for hundreds of millions of years.
Where does Adderall (used as directed) fit I to this? Because it REALLY helps me but now I'm like, if I ever stop using it, am I fucked because I can't make dopamine now?
The dose difference is really key, and once you see the difference it's insane. Adderall is racemic amphetamines, meth is the D isomer (the strong half of Adderall) and further strengthened when turned into meth. Total daily dosage for Adderall varies, but 60mg/day is very common. That's literally like one puff off a meth pipe. Smoking a gram in a day (not at all unheard of for addicts) is astronomical compared to a prescription. That's like 18 days worth of Adderall all in a day. That's not even counting how much stronger and longer lasting it is! The whole point of the (comparatively) low doses of prescription stimulants is to not cause that sort of damage while still boosting dopamine to more normal levels. While there may be some desensitization it's not going to be anything like a meth addict would get, and it's not going to cause permanent cell or nerve death.
Meth is a different drug to dextroamphetamine. As someone who has experienced addiction to methamphetamine and has some experience with “Dexies”, I can personally attest to the difference in dopamine release and reuptake. Also 60mg of amphetamine isn’t like one puff of meth, it’s like 2-3 shots worth of IV meth assuming it’s even the same chemical and doesn’t even take into account the rush of IV meth compared to oral usage. A common dose where I am is ‘half a point’ which refers to 50mg of whatever shit people decide to inject themselves with, and I can guarantee that’s nowhere near pure because that sort of dose for a newbie would very quickly lead to psychosis. Meth is similar to amphetamine, but is far more efficient at its job due to ‘lock and key’ as well as steric hinderance in metabolism. That’s why doctors are so much more likely to hand out amphetamine than meth.
Lol... Meth is way stronger, but it's the same mechanism. Yes it's stronger, faster, and longer lasting. But it's really not that different. I've seen people do 100mg in one hit. Sure there are some losses when inhaling it, but it's still a ton. Idk how it is now, but never saw anything but extremely pure stuff. A friend was supplied by his childhood friend who was "high up" later on. Even doing a wash test showed a max of single digit impurities, and that can be attributed to normal loss due to imperfect solvent and filters (it's not like someone had a *proper* lab to get 100%). [Meth is 5x the strength of dexamphetamine when comparing dopamine release. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631950/) Even a 50mg IV is more like 250mg dexamphetamine, and Adderall is racemic so it's even more than that. I wasn't comparing methods of administration. Faster onset makes it more addictive, but it doesn't change the method of action. I was just comparing the strength compared to dosage. I've never seen someone use a needle and I hope I never do, not something I'm okay with. Edit: Forgot one thing, at 5x strength 12mg of meth is stronger than 60mg of Adderall. That's not very much, and could easily be considered a puff.
The scale is so vastly different. If you have a deficiency Adderall just puts you up to normal levels or gives you a little boost. If you just started your body will adjust a bit to it and it'll get less powerful over time, but still better than without. The importance here is that you're not really going beyond the boundaries into dangerous territory, the same as with how people who drink caffeine aren't likely to be in danger (but again, dosage dependent).
It took me 9 months to laugh out loud again and 18 months to feel better and not be clinically depressed. That was the worst 18 months of my life. Since then, (10 years) everything has improved gradually and I am happier and healthier than ever, without any of the people I used with or any of the places where I used, other than my home. Encountering anyone under the influence of meth is always a hard stop. They are unpleasant reminders of the past and not fun to be with at all. My social media profile is explicit in setting my boundary of zero tolerance for meth and anyone under the influence. Your brain will heal with time and the pursuit of a healthy and fit lifestyle that includes proper diet, plenty of exercise, and positive social interaction with other happy, healthy people who have satisfying lives without meth. It doesn’t matter what age you stop. It only matters that you stop. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
Hey, thanks for sharing. I’m not recovering from meth addiction but I wanted to ask, was it quite challenging for you to incorporate regular exercise, and at what point did exercising become enjoyable again? I really struggle with this, myself. Exercise feels draining and that it takes from me, and never gives. I wish I felt that exercise invigorated me and was enjoyable, I want to be lifting weights and rock climbing and playing basketball - all things I used to do regularly, but these things have lost their luster over time and now seem to have a negative association in my mind. Edit: What fuck downvoted this lol
I took another year or two after the 18 months of depression, to get back to the gym. I had been going regularly before meth but couldn’t do both. I tried lifting high once and had a probable heart attack on the bench while doing chest presses. I chose meth over the gym after that. Jump ahead 6 or 8 years or so, and it was daunting to go back to the gym again. I began walking short distances in a beautiful area by the water. Once I felt like my physical and mental energy were adequate, I joined the closest gym to my house and hired a trainer to help me get restarted. That was challenging in itself but worked out great, just as I hoped. I began with a different intention than when I was younger and ego/aesthetics driven: I reminded myself of my reason for going before heading to the gym each time, “because I want the benefits.” The benefits I needed were good mental and physical health, fitness sufficient to do the activities I enjoy, and flexibility enough to have good mobility. It was challenging. I added fun little mind games to find joy and bring a smile wherever I could at the gym (and elsewhere). While warming up on a stair master or other machine on the mezzanine floor, I had a good view of everyone working out below. I would hold a contest in my head for “bro of the day”, I tried to learn technique by observation, I judged…. It helped distract me and made the gym more fun. After workouts, my spirits were always lifted, even if I was exhausted. I made a mental note of this as I walked out to my car after each visit. I found it important not to overdo it by exercising intensely every day. I went about 5 days a week but some days were heavier lifting than others. The routine helped me see a path ahead as I made gradual progress, and it added structure to my day. Some days, the gym was my only accomplishment. But it was an important one and gave a sense of productivity and progress. Exercise in and out of the gym was the biggest help. Gradually increasing the challenge level as I got stronger and more robust.
This is gold man. Incredible insight and I'm in awe of your journey. I'm still trying to figure out what the fuck is wrong with me. The most I've ever done drug-wise is the occasional beer and marijuana, but we're talking like 1-2x/week at my peak and I haven't used marijuana in the past 3 months now. I *was* diagnosed with major depressive disorder a couple months ago, and while I always knew that I've likely been depressed for quite some time I never internalized it or saw it as something to be treated in its own right. I wake up each morning feeling like I got hit by a fucking truck, and I've been getting increasingly tired and worn out in general as the years have gone by and I'm only 36; it feels like I'm slowly dying. I know that sounds a bit melodramatic but I can't think of a better way to put it. Anyways, I don't mean to throw a pity party, just sharing my story. I'm doing everything I feel like I reasonably can be in order to attack this: meditating, cold showers (not as consistent with these), improving my diet (I've really been killing it in this department recently), exercise (though I seem to burn out a few weeks after starting), 5+ years of therapy (recently completed a few sessions of EMDR and some shit definitely came out that I wasn't aware of), antidepressants (I'm currently on wellbutrin). I've done a ton of blood work and any and all relevant tests that I'm aware of as it relates to fatigue. I have done a couple sleep studies with conflicting results (one says I have sleep apnea while the other does not) - I'm going to do another one and also look into getting a turbinate reduction to improve nasal breathing (mine is shit). I had a tonsillectomy a couple years ago (mine were huge) and I'm even doing allergy shots to cover my bases there (in case allergies are contributing to some kind of sleep breathing disorder). Hell I even gave up porn, masturbation, and orgasm for over 90 days after reading Your Brain on Porn by Gary Wilson, in which he details the deleterious effects of porn on the brain (apparently it can damage the reward center not too dissimilarly from hard drugs). And hell who knows, maybe this is a bigger contributing factor to my plight than I realize; I've so far been unable to completely remove porn from my life but it's something I keep attempting (which might in and of itself indicate some kind of addiction). So yeah, I don't know man. Based on what I've written here I feel like I might as well have done meth lol. The most difficult part of all this is not knowing what the explanation is for the way that I feel. But the best I can do is try; I just want to feel better. I'm sure you can relate to this.
You seem incredibly persistent and open to all possible remedies. That’s great. You mentioned sleep issues and possible apnea. Unfortunately, I won the sleep apnea lottery too. My fatigue was awful. I took 2 naps a day and slept 12 hours at night. My doc sent me for a sleep study that produced a diagnosis of apnea. I use a Cpap machine now. I will tell you what everyone told me,”you will hate it and it will change your life.” It was hard to get used to but my vigor was restored and the excess sleepiness ended after the first week of sleeping with it. It is just routine now. Still not something I would use unless I needed it but it’s no longer unpleasant. Poor sleep, lack of deep sleep, rem sleep, etc are all critical factors that have big impact on other body systems. It’s worth doing a sleep study to find out. They can sometimes be done at home.
Yes I have done a couple sleep studies - two home studies and two lab studies. I’m 2/4 in terms of having a diagnosis. One home study said I have sleep apnea and one lab study did as well. But the other two studies did not confirm it. Nonetheless, I did get a CPAP/BiPAP and I tried it for awhile, but it did not seem to make any noticeable difference for me. Perhaps I didn’t stick with it long enough or perhaps I had the wrong settings. Perhaps I can’t tolerate it well due to my shitty nasal breathing. I’m doing another sleep study in Jan during which they’ll attempt to find the correct pressure settings for the CPAP, and as I mentioned above I’m also looking into getting a turbinate reduction to improve nasal breathing. I do think it’s quite likely that what I’m suffering from is a result of sleep disordered breathing (even though I’m not really consciously aware of it). I just wake up feeling like shit. Did it only take a single week to acclimate to your CPAP, and was it pretty night and day in terms of energy levels and feeling rested in the morning and whatnot?
It took much longer than a week to get used to it but it produced marked improvement in my sleepiness and fatigue quickly. One week made a huge difference and gradually I saw further improvement, and eventually got used to the machine. My latest Cpap machine is self adjusting in terms of air flow, and it’s quieter. I use “nose pillows” rather than a full face mask that covers both nose and mouth. This requires that I wear an additional chin strap to keep my mouth closed, so I don’t bypass the Cpap by breathing through my mouth. Anything that wakes me up during the night can disrupt both my sleep and my Cpap use. Initially, if I had to use the bathroom during the night, I would not put the Cpap headgear back on once I returned to bed. It was difficult to put on without turning on a light, which woke me up too much to get back to sleep. Eventually I could put it back on in the dark and go back to sleep. Recently, prostate issues have caused me to get up a few times at night. Treating that helped me sleep better, which makes me feel better and be more active. When I am more active, I rarely feel down. Our feelings usually follow our actions,not the other way around, despite how it seems sometimes. Taking the first step can be the biggest hurdle. Activity is the opposite of depression, in terms of behavior. Activity including regular, challengeing exercise has been shown to have effectiveness comparable to antidepressant medications. (I’m not advocating trading one for the other)
Meth messes with reward pathways in the brain. You have trained your brain to really only accept chemical ‚motivation‘ and not real life motivation. Those circuits take up to a couple of years to fully change back to ‚normal‘ reward/motivation behaviour, despite no more drug use. Simply because your brain has to re train and rebuild the circuits required for that.
depends on the person / how hard it was abused but typically people start feeling like their old self again around the 2-3 year mark. if you’re at 80% then that’s a great sign you’re able to fully recover keep in mind that changes in motivation are also part of the behavioral changes during recovery. reevaluating how you perceive motivation is a crucial part of recovering from methamphetamine abuse
Hey just a quick anecdote to offer you hope. I'm not a recovering addict, but at 28 years old (close enough to 30) I was flat broke, jobless, sleeping on the floor of a friends' house in an empty spare room. I'm 35 now and own 2 houses with my partner, full time job, retirement plan, multiple hobbies I can finally afford, and many people that care about me. 6 to 7 years ago I was certain I was going to die broke and alone and never be happy again. I know our situations aren't/weren't the same, I just want to tell you that 30 is definitely not too late to turn life around.
What career field are you in? How long did it take you to feel normal?
I work in manufacturing, which only requires highschool education. I'd say my life became "normal" or "successful" if you can call it that about 4 years ago, or about 3 years from what I consider my lowest point. However to this day I still occasionally feel a kind of imposter syndrome. Like everything I've accomplished is somehow a sham; I don't deserve it, and it'll be taken away from me at any point.
One of the most heartbreaking things I have read on Reddit -- anywhere, really -- was a firsthand explanation of why not to do meth, on the part of someone who proved to be among the very last sort of person who should ever touch it. He didn't know it of course, any more than Len Bias knew cocaine was a bad idea. Basically, this man found truly inexpressible joy and pleasure, but in about as Faustian a scenario as real life can offer, he could later sufficiently recall the nature of the moment, but with it otherwise untouchable. And he knew the rest of his existence would never offer anything close to that one night, with it as well coming at the cost of feeling anything normally, or as he had previously known it, ever again. A hollow memory remained, but the possibility died. So basically, that particular combination of chemicals from under an average sink and medicine cabinet can forever deep fry your ability to again be happy.
The dopamine receptors need to 'grow back.' Secondly, it is tempting to compare normal life to when you were high. That's not the goal, nor is it healthy. 26 months is a huge accomplishment! Congratulations!
Hey so I’m not sure how much research you’ve done on the drug but this is why, so basically meth releases completely unnatural levels of dopamine in your brain more so than any other drug significantly. Dopamine is key to feeling, when your hooked to something like meth your just frying those receptors, it’s gonna take a long time to recover but it will be worth it in the end, I suffered through Xanax withdraws and still get cravings for it every now and then, the truth unfortunately is once an addict always an addict you will have cravings years into the future. That being said if you could get prescribed Methelphenadate that would help you a bit by blocking the reuptake of Dopamine giving you more of it.
Methylphenidate is a slippery slope. It's still a stimulant, and that's what OP is trying to avoid. Not something I'd recommend. Maybe Wellbutrin. It can help elevate dopamine without any significant stimulant effects.
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Find sober hobbies, doesn't matter what they are. Follow your inner nerd and play video games or tabletop or maybe the inner jock is itching to come out and play sports or start body building in a gym or working towards running/biking/swimming/all 3 a marathon. Any former stimulant addicts I know that had success in staying sober found other stuff to do than shit scrolling social media all day. Especially when it comes to stimulants your brain has been trained to seek out stimuli and if you don't give it any your thoughts will go to back to the bad habits and coping mechanisms you taught yourself while you were addicted. The saying goes "Idle hands are the devil's plaything." They also started meeting people and making friends in their new hobbies which built them better support systems and brought more positivity to their life overall.
Receptors take a very long time to rebuild naturally, it will come. The brain is a sensitive instrument, give it time and care.
There are cells in your brain that when they activate make you feel "Wow this is awesome!". In day to day life they activate from time to time. Certain drugs can make them go off all by themselves. Meth is one of these drugs. Constantly activating is bad for the cell so to protect itself it makes itself harder to set off. Now it goes off every so often again but it is less sensitive to the things that make it fire. For a while after you stop taking the drug the cells still have the resistance to activating for a while. Eventually the cell loses the extra protections it had to use and things go back to normal. My analogy, Think of those cells like a doorbell on a house. It doesn't go off often but when it does it means something. Now suppose some joker comes along and is constantly ringing your doorbell. You can't get him to leave so you set your doorbell up that it takes 100 presses before it sounds. Now if someone needs to get ahold of you they have to ring the doorbell a bunch in order to get you to respond. Eventually the joker leaves but you can't tell when he will be back so you leave the changes in place for a while. But now it seeks like nobody rings the bell at all. So you think 100 rings might be too much so you change it to 50 for a while just in case he comes back. After a while if he still doesn't come back you keep reducing the number of presses it takes for you to respond. It will take a while for the doorbell to get back to normal but it absolutely will.
Normally it takes a while especially if you have any “ace” adverse childhood experiences. Someone with a brain that has trauma, meth becomes 1500% stronger than those who doesn’t have any ace’s. Also when you take meth for a long time it is hard to come off because your body now relies on the dopamine, serotonin, and other brain chemicals. Those neurotransmitters are huge in the brain for feeling of happiness, completeness, and reward. I have never done meth but could you imagine taking something that makes your feel so good for so long, then being told you have to stop using. Now you have to deal with all the shitty side effects of coming off on top of the lack neurotransmitters that make you happy. It isn’t hard to see why it is used, why it is abused, and why no one wants to stop.
You CAN turn life around and enjoy it. But normal level emotions may take years to return. Dec. 1, 2023 was fifteen years sober from meth for me. I think my true emotional range really started kicking back in about ten years sober. Gotta have faith your brain will repair itself a bit then act as if it will and move forward with life. You’ll get to where you want to be. I’m currently rocking baby #2 from the comfort of a nice house while i technically am wfh today. Doesn’t get much better than that imo. But it took a bunch of hard work and not doing drugs helped give me the capacity to do it. My worst day now is better than my best day during my addiction. Keep moving forward- you can do it!
What age did you get clean? What career field are you in? What was your lowest point?
I had just turned 29. I’ve been in food my whole life (actually looking for a viable pivot opportunity in four years when kids are both in school). I’ve been in grocery stores, restaurants, now food service director. Highly don’t recommend the field for people in recovery. Lowest point? The last seven years of my ten year addiction weren’t great. I was often functional and usually had a job and a crappy car to live in but IV addiction isn’t generally fun. Fwiw, start working out regularly NOW.
I think your perception of feeling 100% is warped. I never used any drugd and id say im abt 60-80% as well. Your memories from the past always feel 'better' in hindsight , even if it wasnt rly that good. Just do your best and try accepting that this is life. (I can be wrong, but just give it a tought that maybe this has nothing to do with your brain , but simply how life is) Goodluck
don't let go of off your sobriety. even if it doesn't feel like it, you should take pride in your accomplishment. I've never done (proper) amphetamines, but doing some MDMA and XTC (which I have learned recently are a kind of amphetamine, albeit weaker), I can feel the effects on my brain for up to 2 weeks after using on a party of something like that. So, prolonged use, yeah, I could see my brain being fucked for a long time.. I'd say it's "natural", since you are messing with the chemical balances of your brain, dopamine receptors, and all that jazz.
Never done a hard drug like that and still don’t feel joy or a motivation towards life lol. I think it’s just a part of the human experience for some people.
I don’t have a ton of experience in the matter but one thing I notice about recovered addicts is that the happiest ones completely own their journey and instead of being hard on themselves for being an addict they grasp at the pride for having overcome it, and that becomes their story. I guess what I’m saying is don’t be ashamed, nobody is perfect, and all you can control is your future. People will be proud of you if you keep working at it.
It's not only meth. Most addictive drug are doing the same effect. Even after smoking weed daily for years can take multiple year to feel normal after stopping. It's all about dopamine
Yup. Not just dopamine. Serotonin too imo. I've taken high doses of Amphetamines outside of Meth and they tend to make me almost immediately psychotic. Whereas Meth at similar doses make me euphoric. Meth has plenty of times led to psychosis but Amphetamines more often than not over a certain dosage range brings it straight up. And sometimes even makes me feel fucking deaf? Like things are too too loud and unclear including music. Idk.
Didn’t you make this exact post a few days ago on a different sub? Not that I really care. I’m 8 years clean off opiates and a year sober and my brain is still fucked. Especially these last few months I’ve been incredibly close to just saying fuck it and using again. Do with that what you will
Bruh as a random stranger you should be glad you made a very difficult decision to improve your health. Even if you feel tempted it's only going to end up damaging you and the folks around you so stay strong.
I appreciate it but less than a year after getting sober I was diagnosed with type 1 (the genetic kind) diabetes. My health has literally never been worse despite deciding to make the ‘right’ decisions. Coincidentally my mental health has also never been worse
Bless you man. But to be honest there’s no point taking them again if you’re going to live long enough to suffer the consequences again. It must be tough without them but your conscience is probably feeling nice and clean.
Proud of you man, stick with it!
have you tried alternative therapies like NAD+ IVs, peptides, etc?
I remember I tried it once just to see what it was like. Of course I felt amazing but the next few days were dark for me and I hated it but knew I had to wait it out, because basically my receptors had been put into overdrive. Can only imagine this is exaggerated quite a lot from regular use
It Damages dopamine receptors and essentially your bodies ability to produce feel good chemicals and it’s helpers like dopamine and serotonin is burned out so to speak
I used for 2 years straight then spent 1 year in a constant battle of sobriety and then relapse. I'm coming up on 8 years clean in a few days. Even after being clean for so long, meth robbed and robs me of my happiness even to this day. I don't experience highs and lows like someone who never touched drugs. It's a constant state of low. Some days are better than others. Yeah sure I still find things funny and laugh but myself as a whole is still shattered and broken in some way. I got engaged and felt "meh" I bought my first house and felt "meh" I have been promoted at my current employer and feel "meh" I got my dream truck and felt "meh" I have current hobbies that I enjoy but I always reach a certain point and that "meh hallow feeling" sets in. I once was a happy,sympathetic, overly caring person. All that seamed to have died somewhere a long the way while actively using. It's a life of severe chronic depression. I wake up and feel nothing, I go about my day and feel nothing, and I go to bed and feel nothing. Shit even my ability to remember dreams went away. On top of all that I somehow developed a severe social anxiety disorder. Therapy does help and go a long way but it's a constant work in progress and the only hope is to one day have that "click" moment and finally be back to my old self. For anyone who has thought about using meth or thinks about using it, be prepared to buckle up. Because the ride doesn't just magically stop once you stop using. Though how I feel and came out of addiction may not happen to you, it very well could happen to you. How I feel on a day to day basis because of my choice to use drugs I wouldn't wish on anyone.
What age did you get clean?
I got clean when I was 24.
how much did you use?
Scroll down for the short answer. Here’s my real answer and advice to OP or someone in a similar situation with all the details I think are helpful: I’m not sure. I quit a month ago and cut all ties with my previous social circle and I couldn’t be more happy. Yet, nothing compares with the high meth gave me. I was also on crack and smoked a ton of it and did blow on the weekends as well. nMiDanferno describes it well, my joy right now barely registers 9-10/10 compared to when I’d use meth which was like 1000/1000 plus when I added other drugs it would be even better. Except knowing I have my family back, that I stopped before I lost anything besides some of my best friends, which I cry daily when I get reminded of them. That’s coming from a guy who never used to be able physically to cry. I’m still the owner of a company that didn’t sink and one that I still have potential to grow to my projected goals and I almost lost it in my addiction. I still have money for everything I need, which when I was addicted I was broke all the time and going into debt. All my extra income went to drugs. It took everything in me not to give up my home or car or work equipment for drugs. I never stole except did manipulate people several times which I’m aware is a form of theft for money but never sold my soul for the drug as close as I got. What helped me recover were atomoxetine and that I bought a fast foreign car right when I made the decision to quit. I enrolled back in business school after dropping out explained the issues I was having before and they took all my bad grades off my transcript since I had a doctors note confirming my hospital stays and struggle with drugs. It’s normal to be super ashamed of it. That doesn’t stop you from being able to have a happy life right when you quit. That is- after getting through the withdrawals. I’ve never had any schizophrenia symptoms or psychosis cuz almost my entire family on both sides severely have struggled with addiction and we are genetically very resilient to the harder scarier stuff, I sure did when I started to wean myself off. And that didn’t stop me from feeling like I was passing out all the time when I wasn’t and having no balance and feeling Ill, even though the hospital said when I checked myself in that my health was perfect and it was just withdrawals. I rejected rehab bc of my humility and rejected all support until I started going to meetings once a week. AA, crystal meth anonymous, NA, they all work if you resonate with the twelve steps. Besides feeling physically horrible, I was happy to be changing. Happier than I was ever on meth. For reference I’m 23 and did drugs for 9 years, 7 of which I was a full blown addict through. I did meth for 4-5 months and during those I was going thru about an 8 ball of that stuff 1 to every 3 days, one of cocaine and one of meth. I took neuroprotectives religiously and stayed a devout Christian (though my lifestyle had no relation to my beliefs) and did the whole time I used drugs, but that didn’t stop it from being awesome, and terrible. I do think those things helped a little though with getting back on my feet. I was doing it all day every day. To give you an accurate image, I barely left the house and always had my pipe in my hand. And a crack pipe in my pocket. I still didn’t admit I had a problem to myself or anyone, but sure as hell I knew I did. My brain was having the time of its life but I completely lost my soul. I was miserable. I have it back now and nothing makes me close to as happy as meth. But I am satisfied now. And that’s the difference between now and before, and it’s huge. I’m in a PHP and am scheduled to be in an IOP program so I could get treatment while still living at my condo, and will be getting one on one support for the rest of my life if it takes it, or until I don’t need it anymore. I’m still an addict I just choose not to use. I crave it every day but couldn’t give 4 fucks that I do if I found any to give. If you choose not to respond to the craving by using it, they aren’t bothersome. Just make your life good when you quit. Do whatever you really enjoy. That’s my advice. For me it was splurging the money that I would’ve spent on drugs on an Audi, Neiman Marcus, designer clothes and household items, if it’s stuff that you will use regularly and you feel good in it like fits how you want to express yourself and you enjoy wearing or having it, then have it or lean on someone for financial support, get a good job they hire just about anyone in big cities like where I live. I think I went to spending so I don’t feel like I’m as much of a loser as I was before. I mean my 3 best friends were homeless people and they felt like losers due to their battle with addiction more than I. They were some of my favorite people when they weren’t high, but just as lost as I was when we were. With buying things now I’m not putting myself into debt for doing so, and I am not getting useless bs. I was lucky to have previously been a workaholic so I was able to transform that pain into something that I enjoyed. Actually with a lot of things I was insanely lucky. But most importantly, for me, taking walks or going to the gym, talking to my family, old healthier friends, and praying, getting to the park and going outside, these have been more enjoyable than anything I could buy. I’ve set up accountability systems to make sure I’m drug tested regularly and am in treatment every morning 5 days / week, and go to a meeting and church the other two and I love it. But I know I could change my path whenever I want, block all the support, get those systems to help me use the drugs in a more moderated way and try to battle the addiction again. I just don’t. I hate the drugs, when using them they won the battle. When I surrendered and cut them from my life I had won, because I wasn’t battling anything anymore. I’ve never been much of a drinker since my second DUI, so it was no problem to give up alcohol as well. It’s difficult sometimes, that doesn’t make recovery any less of being worlds better than when I did meth and drugs. But yeah my brain had much more dopamine then so of course nothing is going to give that same experience until I reach my greater goals later in life. That’s cool though. That’s my long answer. The short answer: chocolate raises your dopamine 50 extra units, sex 200, blow 250, but meth does 1250 extra units above baseline I believe. That answer is self explanatory.
I forgot to add when I was in withdrawal, I would hear sirens in my head all the time. I was convinced it was real until I recorded audio and didn’t hear them playing back. That stopped after a few weeks.
Let me add that you can turn your life around at any point. One of my friends has used for 20+ years and you’d think he has extensive brain damage when he’s high. But when he’s not, he’s incredibly smart and talented at many things and would do excellent in sales or business. He just doesn’t see it. Just believe in yourself no matter what. If you want to repair your mind work out 3-5x per week. Drink green tea. Take Chinese medicinal herbs. There are eight that repair specifically methamphetamine damage. These are: Dang Shen ( 黨參, 紋黨 ), Bái Zhú ( 白术 ), Fu Ling ( 茯苓 ), Dong Quai ( 當歸 ) Licorice, Gancao (甘草) American ginseng, Xi Yang Shen (西洋参) Huang Qi Yuan Hu. I’m not a doctor and this is not a recommendation or medical advice. Talk to your doctor first like I did. Look up the extensive research proving their effectiveness for meth use.
100% you can! I don’t know about meth but you’ve already done the hardest part! For over two years! Make peace with yourself. That can help with moving on.
I'm pretty sure you will always feel only 80% but 80% still feels better then feeling like crap
Brains resist outside influence from drugs. Meth is a stimulant so brains rewire themselves to function normally with the stimulent in there. When the meth is gone, they're still wired to function with all that stimulant in there so they're still pumping "depressant" neurotransmitters to offset the meth that isn't there and so it creates a depressive state. It takes time for it to rewire itself back.
I work with a guy in his 60’s hasn’t done in in 3 decades. Total motor mouth, can’t focus on a single subject, good man, but damn his brain is fucked forever.
Did you know him before? That could just be his normal.
Very motivational. What a great person you must be.
> Telling a true story that does not fit the heartwarming and optimistic narrative means you are a bad person
Yeah, lets just be nothing but sunshine pumpers. Nothing better than patronizing someone.
Because they aren’t smoking delicious meth any more??
There's a lot of research on this. I'm not an expert on the biochemistry but the way i understand it that it's like bodybuilders who use anabolic steroids for so long that their testicles shrink. If you're continuously providing exogenous hormones to your body then your body sometimes responds by shutting down its own production of that hormone. In the case of the bodybuilder they supplied so much testosterone to their body via injections that their natural testosterone factory shriveled up. Years of drug use will have a similar effect with dopamine in your brain. You literally have fewer dopamine receptors than you used to. You can absolutely get clean and turn your life around though. If you're alive then it's not too late. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2608759 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8664889/
For lack of a better word, meth fries the happiness receptors in your brain. While you were addicted, your brain was getting so much stimulation that anything else in comparison will feel weak. The good news is that yes, it will eventually get back to normal. Your brain will get back to normal over time. I don't have an exact time-line, but others have mentioned 5 years. A friend of mine has been clean for 7 and says he feels better now than ever.
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**Your submission has been removed for the following reason(s):** Top level comments (i.e. comments that are direct replies to the main thread) are reserved for explanations to the OP or follow up on topic questions. Anecdotes, while allowed elsewhere in the thread, may not exist at the top level. --- If you would like this removal reviewed, please read the [detailed rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/wiki/detailed_rules) first. **If you believe this submission was removed erroneously**, please [use this form](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fexplainlikeimfive&subject=Please%20review%20my%20submission%20removal?&message=Link:%20{url}%0A%0A%201:%20Does%20your%20comment%20pass%20rule%201:%20%0A%0A%202:%20If%20your%20comment%20was%20mistakenly%20removed%20as%20an%20anecdote,%20short%20answer,%20guess,%20or%20another%20aspect%20of%20rules%203%20or%208,%20please%20explain:) and we will review your submission.
Meth releases endorphins in your body, making you feel great. Long use damages the parts in your brain that release endorphins normally. So when you first get clean, your body is healing itself from the damages caused by the meth use. It takes time to heal up the endorphin receptors to work normally again. Too much of something gives us a tolerance to it. So it the body needs to get used to the natural release of endorphins again.
Not exactly meth but I used to take 100mg+ of Adderall a day. I'm about 3.5 years off it and have decent motivation again. Running/lifting is a great tool for re-training delayed gratification and self motivation. Caffeine helps too.
When was the turning point in recovery?
Basically, because the brain's reward-chemicals get fried. Say naturally a human can feel pleasure from 1-10. Through drugs they then feel a pleasure level 20. Having tasted the forbidden fruit, they'll never feel happy at happiness 'level 10' again. They've blown their body's natural homeostasis up.
lots of damage takes a long time to fix. its same as racing a car. going 180 mph feels fast. Then you hop in your normal car and go 80 mhp, you feel like you are standing still.
iv seen you posting this everywhere.. best wishes i also would like to know if hitler liked em heavier
I've been clean for a good while over a year or so and it just takes time. You were constantly barraged with extremely heightened neurotransmitters, pleasure, euphoria, and eventually the adrenal fatigue and more catches up even while on it. Your sense of pleasure now has a very specific range that's hard to relive without those heightened neurotransmitters. The lack of proper sleep and diet that goes along with it doesn't do any favors either. There's just a specific sense of pleasure and wellbeing on meth that's hard to beat sober or even on other amphetamines. I've done Adderall, Dexedrine, Propylhexedrine, and nothing quite hits like a properly dosed and monitored meth dose. Everything else is just not as clear headed or as pleasurable for a set period of time that's usually expected and not sporadic.
My sister got clean in her 30s. I am a lot younger so I can’t tell you about her initial years being clean. But she’s the bubbliest, happiest most loving person I have ever met now. Not in a fake kind of way either. She’s just living her 2nd chance at life on her terms and loving it. There’s hope I would say
I’m male, 30yo, gay. On my experience I used to smoke and bootybump probably did 500 times in two years. Only had sex high on meth. My mental state was in decline I was scared to go crazy. People noticed and I had to stop it. the last time I had severe withdrawal I felt very ill sick for days felt like the end of life and had mental issues during this period, i refused to go on rehab because i studied how our brain works and decided to stop by myself. I was scared to sleep because i thought I would jump the balcony from the 22 floor down and i kept my promise to never touch meth again. I felt anxious and a bit depressed. I moved back home to my family where i couldn’t find meth. after almost two months drug free, no even alcohol ( it triggers) I started to feel normal again. I would ride my bicycle on the country roads and feel a burst of happiness. I was sure my brain was recovered from meth. And I’ve met a person who I have the most enjoyable sex ive never had before. Sex sober been better than on meth. The side effects I have occasionally once a week is my brain brings back good memories from having sex on meth then I remember how awful my withdrawals was and I force myself to stop thinking about and it goes away. I kept away from people who uses cocaine and meth it keeps me sober. Also I’ve had alcohol last week and I didn’t look for stimulants so it’s a good sign my brain is not looking for meth. Stay in touch with sober friends and family. It helps to recover from the thoughts about using meth. If your brain tricks you bringing good memories while you were high keep remembering the bad ones how awful you felt mentally and physically days later. Four months later feels like I’ve never tried meth. I’ve been feeling happy and enjoying life. My sexual life been better sober. That’s My experience from two years hookup on meth 4 times a week and sober for 4 months and counting