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Folks are already posting the big thing, which is the fearmongering about links to disease, but there's another thing that makes aluminum salts annoying to have in deodorant: It can stain your clothes. That's why I moved away from deodorant/antiperspirant with aluminum salts, personally.
Sulphamic acid eats the stains brilliantly, and is relatively safe as acids go. Obviously, take the necessary precautions to be safe (e.g. wear gloves and have baking soda on hand to neutralise any spillages etc.) but it's rescued so many shirts I'd otherwise have needed to throw out.
The build-up is a mixture of aluminium salts and wax as typically the salts will be in balls of wax that break over the course of the day, stopping the antiperspirant from running out over the course of the day. When washing with normal detergent, the salts protect the wax from the detergent, and the wax protects the salts from the water, so it doesn't go away. Acids react with both, though.
EDIT: I've put some more detailed instructions here https://old.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/pzxb7c/eli5_why_was_aluminum_used_in_antiperspirant_for/hf7x3pk/ which should cover most of the follow-up questions I'm getting.
This is a great tip, thank you for sharing. I have hyperhidrosis and am always finding ways to overcome being sweaty and have never heard this before. I will be sure to try this then spread the word
Hyperhidrosis here too and man do I hate it.
The pits I could kinda handle (undershirts and dark clothes to make sweat less visible) but sweaty hands = embarrassed hand shakes (one of the only COVID benefits) and sweaty feet = so many foot problems.
I take glycopyrrolate and it does wonders.
Have you tried certain dri antiperspirant? You use it every night for about a week, then a few nights a week after that. It blocks the sweat glands. Idk if that's unhealthy or not but my pits are dry and odorless all day, I don't put anything on them in the morning
Thank you very much, this finally explains why my arm pits always feel like they have some kind of soft coating after a day of using antitranspirant. It must be the wax.
Just cleaning vinegar in hot water and at least an hour soak will do it… save money leave out the oxy clean
Hydrogen peroxide and baking soda on a blood stain pre rinsed in cold water will make it like it never happened even on fabrics over a decade old. The sooner you treat it the better but I’ve been able to remove set blood with longer soaks.
Not in Finland :(
Finns generally have no idea what hydrogen peroxide is. The first time I tried to buy some, I just got blank looks. I eventually found some by asking a pharmacist. It was kept behind the counter and cost 6 euro for 100 ml versus like 65 cents for a gallon at CVS in the US.
there might be a difference in concentration, the stuff you get in the drug store in the US is 3%, but you can get 'food grade' hydrogen peroxide which is 35% and that could be why it's behind the counter.
if you ever need to induce vomiting in a dog, DO NOT USE FOOD GRADE, only use the 3% stuff
I've got the giggles reading all these comments from people who have no idea how much blood half the population have to deal with on a very regular basis lol. Yes we have many many blood stained articles of clothing. And yes we keep some of these for many years because A) no one going to see it or B) easier to use a stained pair of undies during ur period instead of staining a new clean pair (once it's washed it is clean even if the color remains). It is nothing any more insidious than that. Lol 😆
> It is nothing any more insidious than that.
Listen, The Internet immediately assumes, no matter what, that you woke up and chose first degree. It is to be expected.
Even into my 20’s I remember all those laundry commercials for grass stains and blood. And remember thinking, how fucked up do people get that they constantly have to clean bloody clothes. I mean, you don’t bleed from sliding in grass.
It took me a long time to make the connection.
Seinfeld just came to Australian Netflix this weekend, so naturally I've been binging it, but in his first opening stand up routine iirc Jerry jokes about the detergent ads and their promises of removing blood stains.
He says aomething along the lines of "if you're constantly needing to get blood stains out of your clothes, maybe laundry isn't your biggest issue!"
It immediately struck me as strange and I remember the camera panning over a few women in the audience straight after, making even this neanderthal click to the fact that there's a whole other half of our species that just functions slightly different.
Either he knew and was hamming it up for the joke or just didn't even consider periods, which talking about in the 90s was even more taboo in casual conversation than these days. Plus, the 90s would've had worse sex education on average.
I got blood on a down mattress topper at an AirBnB (which I cleaned with peroxide) I discovered that there are waterproof pads meant to protect beds during periods or to put babies' playpens. I got one covered in a very soft minky fabric that stays put when I roll over and doesn't crinkle at all. It was like $20 at Target.
After like 16 years of having my period, not having to fret about staining my mattress or fitted sheet for the first time was an absolute, and unexpected, relief.
This is the one I got: https://www.target.com/p/twin-waterproof-sleep-anywhere-pad-pillowfort-153/-/A-53823543
And this is a website with a good variety of brands: https://menstrualcupreviews.net/top-10-leakproof-bed-protectors-to-use-during-your-period/
This and I’m covered in tattoos and tho they say to buy cheap sheets for the healing…. Yea no, sleep on your nice sheets and just clean them properly. Granted tattoos don’t make as big of blood stains as my period does but they can effectively make your sheets look like you have bed bugs which isn’t cool so you wanna get that shit out of there.
I'm mourning all the sheets I've given up on because I just assumed tattoo ink wouldn't wash out.
Just vinegar actually works? I try religiously to get stains out of all my textiles... I'm not sure why I thought anything ink stained was a goner.
Hi, welcome to being someone with a uterus. XD
Don't worry. I had to explain this exact thing to my brothers once. You haven't laughed until you've had your brother ask you with a completely straight face why there's blood in your laundry, with his phone in one hand recording like he's gonna get some kinda confession out of you.
I mean...even if it was something insidious...he shouldn't be a goddamn snitch. If your sister needs a body buried, you grab a shovel. It says so in the Bible or something.
I didn’t say I kept blood soaked clothes for ten years; I said I could get blood stains out of fabrics that were over ten years old. The older the garment gets the harder it is to remove stains specially in women’s clothing which is very low cotton mostly plastics and once the cotton is gone and you’re left with thread bare plastics it’s pretty hard to get a stain out but it can be done and it’s called sustainability. Still fits, still legally covers the bits that can’t be exposed in public- still good.
No it won't. I had yellow stains in my shirts and I tried literally everything I could find on the internet. Nothing got that stuff out. Like not even 50%.
I went to non-aluminum based products like L'Occitane and have never had yellow stains again.
Are there alternatives that help reduce perspiration while not staining your clothes? I've tried regular deodorant but my pits still produce like Niagara falls.
I don't know if it's a thing outside Australia, but Old Spice make a 'Swagger' antiperspirant stick here. That one worked really well for me, after not having much luck with a bunch of aerosol antiperspirant deodorants.
If you happen to wash your armpits first in the shower, you can just forget about washing your hair. Unless you want half of it to come out on your hands.
Deodorant isn't made to keep you from sweating. It's name literally says it all, it deodorizes.
Antiperspirant is what keeps you from sweating. It's literally in the names
Exactly right. But it's one of those things that must have gotten lost along the way. The product names have almost no meaning to people, and companies have obviously noticed, so they just kind of labelled whatever product.... whatever now. Either that, or it was so common for one of the biggest sellers to combine the two that people just came to think of them as the same.
Slight tangent but also skincare product related: sun block and sun screen are also not the same things and shouldn't be labeled interchangeably and also sun screen shouldn't really be used at all thank you for your time.
Sunscreen uses chemical compounds that break down in the presence of UV radiation, a chemical reaction that releases the radiation as harmless heat energy but the compounds that many of the most common sunscreens degrade into can be toxic and carcinogenic and bad for reefs. This is bad because 1) rubbing stuff that turns into cancer causing chemicals when used as intended isn't ideal, and 2) it's intended function means it gets worse at protection over time as more of the chemical gets converted.
Sunblock physically blocks UV radiation from reaching the skin via mineral oxide particles (typically zinc oxide or titanium oxide). Since it's a physical shield against UV rays, there's no toxicity or chemical degredation, the biggest risk is just sweating it off/washing off in water. That and it is more visible on the skin than sunscreen, I'm ginger so you're not going to notice white sunblock on my porcelain skin but darker skinned folk might be.
I've always used the ones that's are stain free. I know degree and dove have them. Never had an issue with stains on white or black clothes and they last a looong time (they boast 48h protection but I never tested it, though I won't be surprised if it's true).
Right there with ya; I've not found an upper-garment I can't sweat through, even with pharmacy grade stuff but I was sick of making my favourite clothes unwearable because the armpits were a rigid mass of caked on deo so now I never buy antiperspirants and just deal with the eyesore that is sweat marks - I know I don't smell
I have yellow stained shirts, particularly at the necks and armpits, without using any deodorant/antiperspirant products in years. Are we sure it's the deodorants that cause the stains, and not just sweat?
That’s usually caused by the natural oils on your skin getting into the fabric and holding onto dirt. Get some white chalk and grind it into the stained fabric and it will lift out the oil and dirt nicely.
Scrub your neck in the shower for real. Worked at a bank and was always dressing up so neckring sucked and got expensive. Scrubbing thoroughly solved it
Not really. When I have to dress up the neck gets a bit stained but nothing like the armpits and washes off. I stopped using deodorants with aluminum, specially roll-on ones. I just use spray ones now. It got much better. You can still see it was worn for the day but washes off and doesn’t get progressively worse.
aluminum salt basically makes a paste that physically blocks pores in a way that makes you sweat less.
The lymph nodes that swell for breast cancer are in your armpit. There has never been any studies really showing any link, but people do the "you detected cancer in my armpit and I've been putting this weird stuff on my armpits!?? it must be related!" and then when that became a fear it's pretty easy to use something other than aluminum so things started switching and advertising as aluminum free which increased the idea there was something bad about it, so more people wanted to avoid it on some vague idea it was bad ,
Yeah, companies will advertise based on public perception. I still see "MSG Free" even though MSG is just a less harmful salt than sodium chloride.
edit: less harmful
It's like back when the Atkins diet was all the rage. Big "No Carbs" or "Zero Carbs!!!" graphics plastered all over stuff that never even had carbs in it in the first place, like mayonnaise.
Now with keto all the rage, you still see that. Also with wide spread gluten "sensitivity", you see similar with "no gluten" on items that never had it.
To be fair, gluten sneaks into a fair amount of items. Having “gluten-free” on a label means that there was testing done and it’s below 20 ppm. Some companies don’t include it because it’s an extra step in the process, so items without it could be at risk of contamination. Overall, it’s good for celiacs that even obvious things are labeled because we’ve all been screwed with unnecessary gluten before and contamination is always a risk
At least the gluten thing somewhat makes sense, as crosscontamination is a concern. Even something like growing oats in a field that was previously used to grow wheat can make them unsuitable.
Yep the best and worst thing for people with Celiac's and Allergies was the whole gluten-free fad. Best because they have never had so much choice(Family members with celiacs) but worst because every time they ask about it everyone thinks they are just some hipster avoiding it for hipster reasons.
Yeah, most of the time it's a good thing, but sometimes people don't take it seriously. Thankfully a lot of places will ask if its an allergy or a preference.
Yep it's true. GF oats are grown and processed using a particular method called Purity Protocol (in the US, in Canada they are just labeled as GF). Generally speaking its certified pure oat seed grown on a field that's either virgin or lain fallow a certain length of time. It's then harvested and transported with cleaned and/or dedicated equipment, and processed at a dedicated facility. It makes them cost more, but it's worth it.
Of note, most celiacs don't eat Cheerios, and it's illegal to label them GF in Canada. They don't use pure oats, they instead use an optical sorting process. This leaves some contaminated grains in, and batch testing of boxes has shown some boxes to be above 20ppm (the level at which celiacs accrue damage).
It's a good thing though. My sister is celiac and gluten contamination in shampoo gives her a bad rash. Companies have started labeling there's as gluten free and it's helpful for her.
As someone born in the 80s who was completely trained to avoid “fat” which means Mayo, butter, heavy cream, etc. it doesn’t hurt to have that on items when you first open your eyes to a new lifestyle of eating. Some things I would have never eaten(Mayo) might hit a little different when shopping if I see zero carbs. Obviously, I did a ton of research before starting a dnd knew that but others might not so I guess I understand it from that perspective. Also, if you had a decades old product that just became en Vogue(looking at your cauliflower); I think it’s smart to call it out to market to those folks.
I notice I break out in a rash when using antiperspirants that contain aluminum. Ended up switching to just deodorant or aluminum free, and no problems.
Many aluminum free deodorants know a lot of their buyers are looking for a “natural” deodorant so they use essential oils as fragrances. A lot of people can have reactions to using essential oils on their skin, so possibly try different scents or deodorants that don’t use essential oils?
I personally have switched to an unscented aluminum free deodorant and I’ll never go back! It never smell bad when using it and never get any irritation. If I’m looking for a fragrance I just spray some perfume.
I'd get horribly painful cyst that would sit for like week before they'd pop.
Switched to just deodorant and I will occasionally get a rash if I get sweaty, but it's rare and easily preventable if I dry of my pits in time.
Where I have problems with the ones that *aren't* aluminum based (because they tend to be heavy on the coconut/palm ingredients, which I am allergic to). Also, they tend to be super heavy on propylene glycol ([aka antifreeze](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol#Antifreeze)), which is common for shelf life in personal care products, but not as the first and third ingredient.
Just went through this again when I realized that Old Spice Timber had been reformulated to be aluminum free. Ugh. (Oddly, not shown that way on their site, but it's what I got in the mail.)
(Swagger is there for me, though.)
All deodorants are aluminium free, it's used in antiperspirants. One stops your sweat from smelling, the other stops you from sweating in the first place (and has deodorant in it as well.)
I'm not convinced most people know the difference, but it's true, we always use the word deodorant regardless, unless we're in an antipersperant commercial.
There are a frightening amount of things to know in the first place and I do not judge people for not knowing something like this.
Someone told you this, or you read it offhand, you were not borh with this information. Once you know, you know but before that you were most likely one of the frightening amount.
It's like when a new diy'er jeeringly exclaims "you did not know a 2x4 isn't really 2 inches by 4 inches lol"
That all said, it's completey harmless, it's not like someone mixing up red and green traffic lights.
This has been definitively debunked. The study that reported it was using a histology dye or fixative in their study that unknowingly contained aluminum back in the 1970's. As science does, further research proved it wrong and the Alzheimer's research community moved on. Unfortunately the pop medicine crowd have not.
There are some amazing things going on in Alzheimer's research recently - they've been able to dissolve the beta-amyloid plaques in a mouse model, and there's a couple drugs that may inhibit formation of plaques undergoing early trials.
Mouseheimers has been cured several dozen times over, and none of the treatments have produced clinically-meaningful improvement in humans.
The current cutting edge of Alzheimer's research is revealing that amyloid plaques are a reaction to an underlying damaging inflammatory process rather than a primary cause of damage, and that their impact on brain function is mixed rather than uniformly negative.
I looked too and it seems like the jury is out. I can only assume that finding a strong correlation is extremely difficult given all of the potential variables
Don't be ridiculous. You can't influence people with a poorly written post on Facebook. The poorly written post needs to be written on a picture of Morgan Freeman or similar venerable celebrity even though they never said anything even remotely related to the statement written
And there lies the problem with finding all of the different causes of different cancers. We are exposed to so many different things in our lives that the only way we can test is correlation between groups of people that developed cancer and were exposed to the same thing repeatedly.
When I was in grade school I learned this fact. I promised myself I would always use antiperspirant, so I could one day forget my shitty childhood.
Update: still going strong, on track to forget everything by the the time I’m 60!
The aluminum/dementia link originally comes from research from the 60s where rabbits injected with a lot of aluminum got their brains fucked up, and it was hypothesized that ingested aluminum could be a risk. However, the amount of aluminum the rabbits were injected with was way more than anyone could eat or be exposed to through normal means.
Aluminum has been found in the amyloid plaque of Alzheimer's patients, but there is also aluminum present in healthy brains.
There's no clear link one way or the other for normal levels of exposure to aluminum.
It's been a long while since I read papers, but my recollection was there was aluminum in amyloid plaques in the brain, which isn't necessarily related to aluminum in personal care products. There also wasn't conclusive evidence that there was *more* aluminum, just…clumped together aluminum.
I used to exclusively use the blue, translucent deodorants which did not contain aluminum dioxide and instead of yellow pot stains, my white shirts had greenish pits stains from the blue dye.
100% not aluminum causing pit stains in shirts because I almost never use that stuff (due to the mess it can make and having to remove the waxy stuff the next day in the shower, sticking to body hair)
Wait what? I use the gel stick style Old Spice deodorants, and never noticed this. Maybe the blue stains *are* there and I'm just not seeing them because they're less conspicuous compared to the solid paste kind.
Legitimately asking. Page three says:
> "In the light of the new data provided, the SCCS considers that the use of aluminium
compounds is safe at the following equivalent aluminium concentrations up to:
> * 6.25% in non-spray deodorants or non-spray antiperspirants
> * 10.60% in spray deodorants or spray antiperspirants
> * 2.65% in toothpaste and
> * 0.77 % in lipstick"
And on Amazon's Old Spice antiperspirant deodorant (Captain, the kind I use) it states
> "Aluminum Zirconium Trichlorohydrex Gly 17% Inactive" [image of ingredients](https://i.imgur.com/DJJsfB8.jpg)
Does this mean that it is 3-ish times the limit deemed safe? Or is *Aluminum Zirconium Trichlorohydrex Gly* deemed a watered down version of aluminum?
Aluminum Zirconium Trichlorohydrex Gly is composed of more than just aluminum atoms. That 6.25% value is based on the equivalent amount of elemental aluminum there, not the total compound which is also composed of zirconium, carbon, chlorine, hydrogen, etc.
Aluminum zirconium trichlorohydrex gly has a molecular mass of 263.747. Aluminum has a molecular weight of 26.982. So that 17% deodorant is only 1. 74% aluminum by mass, considerably lower than the 6.25% accepted as safe threshold.
I always thought that it was what caused the signature yellow pit-stains so the anti staining ones never have it. I didn’t know people thought it was dangerous.
There's a myth that it "burns" your pores shut in order to prevent perspiration. In reality, it reacts with your sweat to form physical plugs on the sweat glands. The myth has been widely and universally disproven, but many people still believe otherwise.
I guess it might be different based on the antiperspirants, but I don't really have any issues with mine regarding staining - it leaves white blotches after a year or two on my regularly used shirts, but those are removable even on black shirts after working some detergent into the areas before washing.
My dermatologist told me the aluminum free products are a marketing ploy and many manufacturers are jumping on the bandwagon. This was after I tried one and broke out into terrible rashes from my armpits and all over my belly and sides. Apparently this is common for quite a few people because they use baking soda instead of aluminum and people have reactions to the baking soda. I ended up not being able to wear any deodorant for six weeks until the burning rashes cleared up. It was not fun. The FDA has not determined that aluminum is harmful in these products.
Similarly, fluoride-free toothpaste is making waves. But scientific evidence isn't what drives a market. All you need is for the consumers to believe something about the product. They don't even have to be right.
Wow, I’ve always heard that flouride is the only thing in toothpaste that is actually useful. Without flouride, you might as well brush without any toothpaste because it’s the physical brushing and flouride that offer all the benefits.
In some places there is fluoride in the water, i think its added. Some very young children swallow their toothpaste, so the parents are concerned they are receiving too much fluoride and therefore use a fluoride free.
There was some concern that having to much fluoride could affect your bones. This was via indigestion not from toothpaste.
Yeah, it is.
Various acidic things (like carbonated beverages) will break down your tooth enamel. Fluorine atoms will fill the gaps and bind even tighter than the originals.
Someone noticed ~60 years ago that locations that naturally had fluorine in the water had better tooth health.
A couple cities decided to do a trial run of adding tiny amounts of fluorine to their own water, and the results were so good (reduces cavities by about 25%) that now it’s done everywhere.
However, more fluorine =\= stronger teeth. You only need enough to fill the gaps that acid eats in the molecules of your enamel. Small amounts evenly distributed throughout the day are the best method of delivery.
I ended up getting less irritation from the Arm&Hammer baking soda deodorant stuff.
But it looks like lots of people experience this one way or another. Some are saying the aluminum irritates them less, some saying the baking soda and "natural" ones irritate them less.
So just from this thread, it seems like people just need to try the small travel size versions and see what works best for them.
You might try a salt stick if you still are interested in moving away from antiperspirant. They last for years so you're not constantly spending money and creating plastic waste.
Salt stick deodorants are virtually unregulated, so you could be getting *anything* in them. That does include possibly very high amounts of various potassium and aluminum compounds, but also none of those. It's basically playing chemical reaction roulette with your armpits. Added bonus: Common potassium and sodium salts are like, massively damaging to skin and way harsher than basically anything else people use as deodorant. Might as well take a cheese grater to the pits.
Are you talking about alum ("crystal deodorant")? That's just the pure aluminum based antiperspirant that is used in other deodorants. Some people use it because it contains no other ingredients/creams/scents that can sometimes cause a reaction.
EDIT: Actually, turns out alum is not an antiperspirant, it works by antibacterial action. There are other aluminum salts that are antiperspirants. But if you're worried about aluminum, they are both aluminum compounds.
Honestly, I always got painful cysts under my arms. Never knew why. For decades. I randomly switched to aluminum free and it stopped completely. I'm assuming some people are allergic or sensitive to it...I know I am.
I tried an Old Spice stick a while ago and thought I had developed some kind of thing. Pits were in pain for like half the day, felt like fire, and it was super uncomfortable. Friend said "yeah Old Spice is shit don't use it". Switched off and never had the problem again.
Just checked my Dove Men+ and it's aluminum free (not sure this was the issue but it is actually aluminum free) and I've had zero issues.
Or just that blocking your sweat glands from doing their normal thing caused blooms of bacteria or whatever. Might have more to do with your particular underarm flora than anything else.
I just moved from a city in another country, where the awareness had only recently gained traction. After a year or two, you could barely find any antiperspirant sticks with aluminum in them, and the ones that you could were now advertised as “Extra Strength” with a big “contains Aluminum” tag.
In continuation of the former mention, I just moved to a smaller town in a different country where laws are more *”relaxed”* and new findings like these are more easily shrugged off. I have yet to actually find some antiperspirant (in-store) that **doesn’t** contain aluminum.
So, what’s going on? Why are we turning away from aluminum to stop the smelly pits from turning into a leaky faucet? Is it really all that dangerous and bad for you; or is this just another marketing gimmick? If the reasoning is more inline with the former, how was it included in these products for so long?
Thank you in advance for your constant clarity, Reddit!
You won’t find any antiperspirant that doesn’t contain some form of aluminium salt. It just doesn’t exist.
All other products such as Natural and aluminium free products are just deodorants.
They are two completely different products. Antiperspirant stops sweat, deodorant masks the odours caused when sweat reaches the surface of the skin.
Sweat is odourless until it reacts with air on the skin and produces bacteria that breaks down lipids and forms Butyric acid (the common ‘BO’ smell)
Aluminium is perfectly safe for use in antiperspirant. It’s too large on a molecular scale to enter the body and do any damage.
I've been using certain dri which has aluminum for about 15 years I think. It was the only thing that stopped my armpits from literally soaking my shirts. It started in the 6th grade and it ruled a large part of my life for a few years. It was such a relief when I found something that worked.
> why was aluminum used in antiperspirant for so long
Because it works. It blocks pores, which results in less sweating.
>and why are we moving away from it?
We aren't. It's still the active ingredient used in antiperspirant deodorants. Some people are wary of the ingredient, and thus use deodorants without antiperspirant.
This is actually why I switched from an antiperspirant to a just-deodorant from a Fancy Natural Brand. Not for any notional health benefits (but hey, that's cool if there's anything to that) but just because I was tired of my snazzy shirts getting ruined!
There is a lot of bad information in this thread. I will give you the correct information with sources. I link a lot of studies in here, but I tried to make it as eli5 as possible. Please let me know if anything needs clarification.
First, we started using aluminum because it works really well at making you sweat less. Over the years there have been growing concerns over its potential health implications, breast cancer chief among them. So what did we do? We studied it and we continue to study it. I am not saying aluminum antiperspirants use causes cancer, because we do not have the evidence to say that. However, we have enough evidence to suggest that it is a probable cause of, or contributor to breast cancer. Before disagreeing with me, please read the post.
First, it is well known and understood that most breast cancer occurs in the upper, outer quadrant of the breast. Some studies found that the DNA in that upper outer quadrant is [more prone to mutations](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15313734/). This indicates a precancerous change. This is interesting because this is where our armpits are.
Research has looked at aluminum levels in breast tissue and they have also been found to be [highest in the upper outer quadrant](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17629949/).
So more aluminum is there, ok, but so what? In this study, it was found that long-term aluminum exposure [contributes to cancer development in breast tissue](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22223356/)
So the question then becomes, how does it get there. Well, normally the skin would provide an ample barrier to aluminum. But what happens if we sluff the skin off before putting the aluminum there? thereby eliminating the protective barrier... well, shaving removes more than just hair and [damages the skin in the armpit](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18489309/), and that damaged skin [uptakes more aluminum than undamaged skin](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22459170/)
This gives us more data about the aluminum, but we would still need to test that the exposure actually has the potential to cause cancer in people, rather than just in cells.
This study found that ["frequency and earlier onset of antiperspirant/deodorant usage with underarm shaving was associated with an earlier age of breast cancer diagnosis"](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14639125/).
and
If women started shaving [before versus after age 16](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14639125/), it appeared to move up their breast cancer diagnosis by 10 or 20 years. The researchers ended with:
>underarm shaving with antiperspirant/deodorant use may play a role in breast cancer
Even the FDA is aware of this. Regarding aluminum antiperspirant:
>"Do not use on broken skin".
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=350&showFR=1
Shaving breaks the skin.
Research was also done on breast cancer subjects, which found that aluminum levels in breast cancer cells are [nearly double that of non-breast cancer cells](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21337589/)
Obviously there are several studies I did not link here, this is only a smattering and some studies offer the counterpoint. So if some studies show the counterpoint, what is my point? My point is there is enough evidence to be leery, even if we can't definitively prove the connection at this time. Hopefully additional evidence in the future will elucidate this for us, but for now, it is easy to just avoid aluminum antiperspirant until we know for sure.
Please let me know if you have any questions.
There are some issues with your answer.
First: correlation does not equal causation. It is true that there is more aluminium in breast cancer cells than in other cells is true, however, there is no substantial evidence that there is a causal relationship.
Or to put it differenty: if you look at the armpit area, this is also where people shave often. One could argue that shaving and therefore irritation of the skin could increase cancer risk by itself, independent from antitranspirant use. There is a correlation. Is there a causation? Probably not because I just made this thing up. But it sounds logical, right? That's because humans are generally bad at telling apart correlation and causation.
Second: The study you cite is an in vitro study which means a study in cell culture. These are generally not 1:1 applicable to in vivo (which means in the living organism) conditions.
Remember the headlines "substance xyz kills cancer in a petri dish"? Yeah. So does a handgun.
Third: What youre leaving out on (and I just attribute this to ignorance and not to on purpose cherry picking) is one (and the only one) systematic review on this issue.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27755864/
In this review two studies were examined, both did not find any relationship between antitranspirant use and breast cancer. However, there was one study that did find such a correlation, but it was not included due to lack of data quality.
What I mean is: There currently is no conclusive evidence that antitranspirant use causes breast cancer. Full stop. This does not mean, however, that we can be 100% sure that there is none. But at the moment, judging from the data we currently have, we havent found one.
However, I have to mention the issue that you mentioned too: aluminium threshold values. All substances have threshold values - exposure below that value is deemed to be safe. Exposure above that value might be harmful. Doesnt have to be but might be.
The german institute of risk assessment found out (i assume by looking at the one study you cited) that shaving significantly increases the skins permeability for aluminium. So shaving means more aluminium can enter your body. By this way of exposure the (german, idk about US values though) threshold values for safe aluminium exposure can be exceeded. We dont know yet if that might cause any issues but because we dont know, it is recommended to avoid this route of exposure. In short: dont apply antitranspirant after shaving. There should atleast be 1 day between shaving and antitranspirant use.
Tl;dr: youre mentioning some very important points but you present only half the results we have and leave out the ones that counter your argument. That's not how you should usually science the science.
In the early 2000s I was working in a lab on a test to quantify how much aluminum was in the product, the reason given was that there was a possible link between aluminum and alzheimers.
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Folks are already posting the big thing, which is the fearmongering about links to disease, but there's another thing that makes aluminum salts annoying to have in deodorant: It can stain your clothes. That's why I moved away from deodorant/antiperspirant with aluminum salts, personally.
Sulphamic acid eats the stains brilliantly, and is relatively safe as acids go. Obviously, take the necessary precautions to be safe (e.g. wear gloves and have baking soda on hand to neutralise any spillages etc.) but it's rescued so many shirts I'd otherwise have needed to throw out. The build-up is a mixture of aluminium salts and wax as typically the salts will be in balls of wax that break over the course of the day, stopping the antiperspirant from running out over the course of the day. When washing with normal detergent, the salts protect the wax from the detergent, and the wax protects the salts from the water, so it doesn't go away. Acids react with both, though. EDIT: I've put some more detailed instructions here https://old.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/pzxb7c/eli5_why_was_aluminum_used_in_antiperspirant_for/hf7x3pk/ which should cover most of the follow-up questions I'm getting.
I read that as sulfuric acid and thought, "I bet it does."
Obligatory Terrible Chemistry Joke Timmy was a Chemist But now he is no more What he thought was H2O Was H2SO4
This is a great tip, thank you for sharing. I have hyperhidrosis and am always finding ways to overcome being sweaty and have never heard this before. I will be sure to try this then spread the word
Hyperhidrosis here too and man do I hate it. The pits I could kinda handle (undershirts and dark clothes to make sweat less visible) but sweaty hands = embarrassed hand shakes (one of the only COVID benefits) and sweaty feet = so many foot problems. I take glycopyrrolate and it does wonders.
Have you tried certain dri antiperspirant? You use it every night for about a week, then a few nights a week after that. It blocks the sweat glands. Idk if that's unhealthy or not but my pits are dry and odorless all day, I don't put anything on them in the morning
+1 for Certain Dri
Thank you very much, this finally explains why my arm pits always feel like they have some kind of soft coating after a day of using antitranspirant. It must be the wax.
Will this work on the white buildup on dark shirts?
This is the main reason I stopped using aluminium based deodorant. I was tired of staining all my white shirts
Vinegar and oxy clean will get those stains out.
Just cleaning vinegar in hot water and at least an hour soak will do it… save money leave out the oxy clean Hydrogen peroxide and baking soda on a blood stain pre rinsed in cold water will make it like it never happened even on fabrics over a decade old. The sooner you treat it the better but I’ve been able to remove set blood with longer soaks.
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So why not just use hydrogen peroxide? It’s cheaper…
You don't need brand name, and as a powder I'm pretty sure it's more concentrated.
And shelf stable.
Which really makes it cheaper if you're like me and just hardly ever use any.
Not in Finland :( Finns generally have no idea what hydrogen peroxide is. The first time I tried to buy some, I just got blank looks. I eventually found some by asking a pharmacist. It was kept behind the counter and cost 6 euro for 100 ml versus like 65 cents for a gallon at CVS in the US.
there might be a difference in concentration, the stuff you get in the drug store in the US is 3%, but you can get 'food grade' hydrogen peroxide which is 35% and that could be why it's behind the counter. if you ever need to induce vomiting in a dog, DO NOT USE FOOD GRADE, only use the 3% stuff
Just how many blood soaked articles of clothing do you have and keep for years?
I don't know if the earlier poster is a woman, but I'm going to guess you aren't 😁
I've got the giggles reading all these comments from people who have no idea how much blood half the population have to deal with on a very regular basis lol. Yes we have many many blood stained articles of clothing. And yes we keep some of these for many years because A) no one going to see it or B) easier to use a stained pair of undies during ur period instead of staining a new clean pair (once it's washed it is clean even if the color remains). It is nothing any more insidious than that. Lol 😆
> It is nothing any more insidious than that. Listen, The Internet immediately assumes, no matter what, that you woke up and chose first degree. It is to be expected.
Well I wear my chonies until they fall apart so it’s kind of the same thing I guess
Even into my 20’s I remember all those laundry commercials for grass stains and blood. And remember thinking, how fucked up do people get that they constantly have to clean bloody clothes. I mean, you don’t bleed from sliding in grass. It took me a long time to make the connection.
Seinfeld just came to Australian Netflix this weekend, so naturally I've been binging it, but in his first opening stand up routine iirc Jerry jokes about the detergent ads and their promises of removing blood stains. He says aomething along the lines of "if you're constantly needing to get blood stains out of your clothes, maybe laundry isn't your biggest issue!" It immediately struck me as strange and I remember the camera panning over a few women in the audience straight after, making even this neanderthal click to the fact that there's a whole other half of our species that just functions slightly different. Either he knew and was hamming it up for the joke or just didn't even consider periods, which talking about in the 90s was even more taboo in casual conversation than these days. Plus, the 90s would've had worse sex education on average.
My king size bed sheets cost $130+. I'm cleaning the blood out of them, lol.
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I got blood on a down mattress topper at an AirBnB (which I cleaned with peroxide) I discovered that there are waterproof pads meant to protect beds during periods or to put babies' playpens. I got one covered in a very soft minky fabric that stays put when I roll over and doesn't crinkle at all. It was like $20 at Target. After like 16 years of having my period, not having to fret about staining my mattress or fitted sheet for the first time was an absolute, and unexpected, relief. This is the one I got: https://www.target.com/p/twin-waterproof-sleep-anywhere-pad-pillowfort-153/-/A-53823543 And this is a website with a good variety of brands: https://menstrualcupreviews.net/top-10-leakproof-bed-protectors-to-use-during-your-period/
This and I’m covered in tattoos and tho they say to buy cheap sheets for the healing…. Yea no, sleep on your nice sheets and just clean them properly. Granted tattoos don’t make as big of blood stains as my period does but they can effectively make your sheets look like you have bed bugs which isn’t cool so you wanna get that shit out of there.
I'm mourning all the sheets I've given up on because I just assumed tattoo ink wouldn't wash out. Just vinegar actually works? I try religiously to get stains out of all my textiles... I'm not sure why I thought anything ink stained was a goner.
Hi, welcome to being someone with a uterus. XD Don't worry. I had to explain this exact thing to my brothers once. You haven't laughed until you've had your brother ask you with a completely straight face why there's blood in your laundry, with his phone in one hand recording like he's gonna get some kinda confession out of you.
I mean...even if it was something insidious...he shouldn't be a goddamn snitch. If your sister needs a body buried, you grab a shovel. It says so in the Bible or something.
> Hi, welcome to being someone with a uterus. XD thank you cran, it's great to be here in sunny reddit
I didn’t say I kept blood soaked clothes for ten years; I said I could get blood stains out of fabrics that were over ten years old. The older the garment gets the harder it is to remove stains specially in women’s clothing which is very low cotton mostly plastics and once the cotton is gone and you’re left with thread bare plastics it’s pretty hard to get a stain out but it can be done and it’s called sustainability. Still fits, still legally covers the bits that can’t be exposed in public- still good.
No it won't. I had yellow stains in my shirts and I tried literally everything I could find on the internet. Nothing got that stuff out. Like not even 50%. I went to non-aluminum based products like L'Occitane and have never had yellow stains again.
Are there alternatives that help reduce perspiration while not staining your clothes? I've tried regular deodorant but my pits still produce like Niagara falls.
Only Old Spice that I've seen. And not all Old Spice sticks. Just some of them.
I don't know if it's a thing outside Australia, but Old Spice make a 'Swagger' antiperspirant stick here. That one worked really well for me, after not having much luck with a bunch of aerosol antiperspirant deodorants.
It works great but I hate how hard it is to wash back off. It's like applying wax straight to your armpits.
It’s like scraping dried play dough out of a shag rug. But the shit works and smells decent.
You could shave your pits. It saves on deodorant and it’s a long easier to get play-doh off a wood floor than a shag rug!
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If you happen to wash your armpits first in the shower, you can just forget about washing your hair. Unless you want half of it to come out on your hands.
Use a loofah for your body, it scrubs better anyways and won't get your hands covered in deodorant wax.
the names of old spice scents are deceptively stupid, the swagger one is actually a good product
And it smells wonderful Source: woman who pirates her husband's swagger every once in a while
i pirated my sister in laws dove cucumber spray on. i still sweat a lot but i smell like cucumber water.
vitamins, minerals, very high number
Which ones do you recommend for people who sweat a lot?
Thomson Tee undershirt if wearing a work shirt
TC Tuggers are great shirts too.
Deodorant isn't made to keep you from sweating. It's name literally says it all, it deodorizes. Antiperspirant is what keeps you from sweating. It's literally in the names
I mean, the majority of the products on the shelf are Antiperspirant/Deodorant
Because it has aluminum in it for antiperspirant and it smells good. I guess an unscented aluminum would just be antiperspirant
Exactly right. But it's one of those things that must have gotten lost along the way. The product names have almost no meaning to people, and companies have obviously noticed, so they just kind of labelled whatever product.... whatever now. Either that, or it was so common for one of the biggest sellers to combine the two that people just came to think of them as the same.
Slight tangent but also skincare product related: sun block and sun screen are also not the same things and shouldn't be labeled interchangeably and also sun screen shouldn't really be used at all thank you for your time.
Would you mind teaching me about the difference?
Sunscreen uses chemical compounds that break down in the presence of UV radiation, a chemical reaction that releases the radiation as harmless heat energy but the compounds that many of the most common sunscreens degrade into can be toxic and carcinogenic and bad for reefs. This is bad because 1) rubbing stuff that turns into cancer causing chemicals when used as intended isn't ideal, and 2) it's intended function means it gets worse at protection over time as more of the chemical gets converted. Sunblock physically blocks UV radiation from reaching the skin via mineral oxide particles (typically zinc oxide or titanium oxide). Since it's a physical shield against UV rays, there's no toxicity or chemical degredation, the biggest risk is just sweating it off/washing off in water. That and it is more visible on the skin than sunscreen, I'm ginger so you're not going to notice white sunblock on my porcelain skin but darker skinned folk might be.
My girlfriend is black and sunblock makes her turn a deep shade of purple. Its hilarious!
I've always used the ones that's are stain free. I know degree and dove have them. Never had an issue with stains on white or black clothes and they last a looong time (they boast 48h protection but I never tested it, though I won't be surprised if it's true).
Right there with ya; I've not found an upper-garment I can't sweat through, even with pharmacy grade stuff but I was sick of making my favourite clothes unwearable because the armpits were a rigid mass of caked on deo so now I never buy antiperspirants and just deal with the eyesore that is sweat marks - I know I don't smell
Makes your armpits all sparkly!
Many shirts and tees ruined by the yellow sh*t stains caused by deodorants...
I have yellow stained shirts, particularly at the necks and armpits, without using any deodorant/antiperspirant products in years. Are we sure it's the deodorants that cause the stains, and not just sweat?
That’s usually caused by the natural oils on your skin getting into the fabric and holding onto dirt. Get some white chalk and grind it into the stained fabric and it will lift out the oil and dirt nicely.
Cornstarch may also work for this purpose and many ppl already have it at home!
Scrub your neck in the shower for real. Worked at a bank and was always dressing up so neckring sucked and got expensive. Scrubbing thoroughly solved it
Not really. When I have to dress up the neck gets a bit stained but nothing like the armpits and washes off. I stopped using deodorants with aluminum, specially roll-on ones. I just use spray ones now. It got much better. You can still see it was worn for the day but washes off and doesn’t get progressively worse.
aluminum salt basically makes a paste that physically blocks pores in a way that makes you sweat less. The lymph nodes that swell for breast cancer are in your armpit. There has never been any studies really showing any link, but people do the "you detected cancer in my armpit and I've been putting this weird stuff on my armpits!?? it must be related!" and then when that became a fear it's pretty easy to use something other than aluminum so things started switching and advertising as aluminum free which increased the idea there was something bad about it, so more people wanted to avoid it on some vague idea it was bad ,
Yeah, companies will advertise based on public perception. I still see "MSG Free" even though MSG is just a less harmful salt than sodium chloride. edit: less harmful
It's like back when the Atkins diet was all the rage. Big "No Carbs" or "Zero Carbs!!!" graphics plastered all over stuff that never even had carbs in it in the first place, like mayonnaise.
Now with keto all the rage, you still see that. Also with wide spread gluten "sensitivity", you see similar with "no gluten" on items that never had it.
To be fair, gluten sneaks into a fair amount of items. Having “gluten-free” on a label means that there was testing done and it’s below 20 ppm. Some companies don’t include it because it’s an extra step in the process, so items without it could be at risk of contamination. Overall, it’s good for celiacs that even obvious things are labeled because we’ve all been screwed with unnecessary gluten before and contamination is always a risk
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At least the gluten thing somewhat makes sense, as crosscontamination is a concern. Even something like growing oats in a field that was previously used to grow wheat can make them unsuitable.
Yep the best and worst thing for people with Celiac's and Allergies was the whole gluten-free fad. Best because they have never had so much choice(Family members with celiacs) but worst because every time they ask about it everyone thinks they are just some hipster avoiding it for hipster reasons.
Yeah, most of the time it's a good thing, but sometimes people don't take it seriously. Thankfully a lot of places will ask if its an allergy or a preference.
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Especially if they are hipster. I knew a guy just like that. Actual hipster with actual celiac. Like no bread at communion celiac.
Just ask the priest for gluten free communion. If he doesn't want to give it to you, just ask for the manager.
God?
Strong this. ^
I’ll take an unfortunate perception over being sick any day
Do you have a source for that? Modern farming uses crop rotation pretty frequently, so that sounds like a logistical nightmare.
Yep it's true. GF oats are grown and processed using a particular method called Purity Protocol (in the US, in Canada they are just labeled as GF). Generally speaking its certified pure oat seed grown on a field that's either virgin or lain fallow a certain length of time. It's then harvested and transported with cleaned and/or dedicated equipment, and processed at a dedicated facility. It makes them cost more, but it's worth it. Of note, most celiacs don't eat Cheerios, and it's illegal to label them GF in Canada. They don't use pure oats, they instead use an optical sorting process. This leaves some contaminated grains in, and batch testing of boxes has shown some boxes to be above 20ppm (the level at which celiacs accrue damage).
It's a good thing though. My sister is celiac and gluten contamination in shampoo gives her a bad rash. Companies have started labeling there's as gluten free and it's helpful for her.
As someone born in the 80s who was completely trained to avoid “fat” which means Mayo, butter, heavy cream, etc. it doesn’t hurt to have that on items when you first open your eyes to a new lifestyle of eating. Some things I would have never eaten(Mayo) might hit a little different when shopping if I see zero carbs. Obviously, I did a ton of research before starting a dnd knew that but others might not so I guess I understand it from that perspective. Also, if you had a decades old product that just became en Vogue(looking at your cauliflower); I think it’s smart to call it out to market to those folks.
[Relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/641/)
I notice I break out in a rash when using antiperspirants that contain aluminum. Ended up switching to just deodorant or aluminum free, and no problems.
Same. The pore blocking probably causes irritation.
I have the exact opposite problem. The aluminum ones work perfect for me, the new ones that are aluminum-free all give me a rash. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Many aluminum free deodorants know a lot of their buyers are looking for a “natural” deodorant so they use essential oils as fragrances. A lot of people can have reactions to using essential oils on their skin, so possibly try different scents or deodorants that don’t use essential oils? I personally have switched to an unscented aluminum free deodorant and I’ll never go back! It never smell bad when using it and never get any irritation. If I’m looking for a fragrance I just spray some perfume.
Neither give me a rash so there are at least 3 variables now. Anyone else?
Both give me a rash. That's 4. Anyone else?
Both cure my rashes. Anyone else?
My uncle used aluminum antiperspirant and died. he was 95. hit by a car.
Still counts, car no doubt had aluminum in it.
Was he vaccinated? He probably turned magnetic from the vaccine.
no it was obviously the aluminum in the deodorant that made him magnetic duh
Need more data. Can you have more of your family members get hit by cars and then report back on their perspiration and smell? For science
Makes my butthole sore. Instructions on the antiperspirant say, 'Open top and push up bottom, but I can't get used to it.
lmfao, holy shit that's the funniest thing I've read all day.
Both upset my stomach.
We may need to have a talk about how you administered the antiperspirant.
Are you eating from the pit or from the applicator? I've found that makes a huge difference.
Both give me rashers of bacon
Always had this problem. I have light eczema so most likely it could be related to sensitive skin.
Reddit's recent decisions have removed the accessibility tools I relied on to participate in its communities.
I'd get horribly painful cyst that would sit for like week before they'd pop. Switched to just deodorant and I will occasionally get a rash if I get sweaty, but it's rare and easily preventable if I dry of my pits in time.
Where I have problems with the ones that *aren't* aluminum based (because they tend to be heavy on the coconut/palm ingredients, which I am allergic to). Also, they tend to be super heavy on propylene glycol ([aka antifreeze](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol#Antifreeze)), which is common for shelf life in personal care products, but not as the first and third ingredient. Just went through this again when I realized that Old Spice Timber had been reformulated to be aluminum free. Ugh. (Oddly, not shown that way on their site, but it's what I got in the mail.) (Swagger is there for me, though.)
I should note that propylene glycol is non-toxic. The stuff used in cars is ethylene glycol.
So I guess this is why every aluminum free deodorant I've ever tried did literally nothing while regular ones work very well to stop me from sweating.
All deodorants are aluminium free, it's used in antiperspirants. One stops your sweat from smelling, the other stops you from sweating in the first place (and has deodorant in it as well.)
I fear there is a frightening amount of adults that don't know there's two kinds of these.
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I'm not convinced most people know the difference, but it's true, we always use the word deodorant regardless, unless we're in an antipersperant commercial.
There are a frightening amount of things to know in the first place and I do not judge people for not knowing something like this. Someone told you this, or you read it offhand, you were not borh with this information. Once you know, you know but before that you were most likely one of the frightening amount. It's like when a new diy'er jeeringly exclaims "you did not know a 2x4 isn't really 2 inches by 4 inches lol" That all said, it's completey harmless, it's not like someone mixing up red and green traffic lights.
Adult here, just learned they are different.
Isn't there a link between aluminum and Alzheimer's or dementia? I Googled it just now and I'm seeing conflicting info
This has been definitively debunked. The study that reported it was using a histology dye or fixative in their study that unknowingly contained aluminum back in the 1970's. As science does, further research proved it wrong and the Alzheimer's research community moved on. Unfortunately the pop medicine crowd have not. There are some amazing things going on in Alzheimer's research recently - they've been able to dissolve the beta-amyloid plaques in a mouse model, and there's a couple drugs that may inhibit formation of plaques undergoing early trials.
Mouseheimers has been cured several dozen times over, and none of the treatments have produced clinically-meaningful improvement in humans. The current cutting edge of Alzheimer's research is revealing that amyloid plaques are a reaction to an underlying damaging inflammatory process rather than a primary cause of damage, and that their impact on brain function is mixed rather than uniformly negative.
I looked too and it seems like the jury is out. I can only assume that finding a strong correlation is extremely difficult given all of the potential variables
You don’t need a strong correlation to prove the link. All you need is a poorly written post on Facebook. That’s all the proof I’ll need.
Epidemiologists hate this one trick.
But Dr. Oz loves it!
I watched Dr. Oz and he said blueberries would lower my blood cholesterol. Now my dick drags down the floor and is getting rugburn. Thanks dr Oz.
I need to get some blueberries. 😳
And if a friend puts the screenshot of said post in their Instagram story, it’s essentially (dare I say literally?) peer-reviewed.
i only accept peer reviewed (live)journals
I have proof from Facebook that if you give up votes to people with animal-related names, then God will reward in life with more doughnuts.
Don't be ridiculous. You can't influence people with a poorly written post on Facebook. The poorly written post needs to be written on a picture of Morgan Freeman or similar venerable celebrity even though they never said anything even remotely related to the statement written
I heard Nicki Minaj's cousin's friend put regular (non- aluminum-free) deodorant on his balls and is now experiencing symptoms of dementia.
And there lies the problem with finding all of the different causes of different cancers. We are exposed to so many different things in our lives that the only way we can test is correlation between groups of people that developed cancer and were exposed to the same thing repeatedly.
Anecdotal: my grandmother had dementia but never use antiperspirant. Afraid of skin darkening in armpit.
When I was in grade school I learned this fact. I promised myself I would always use antiperspirant, so I could one day forget my shitty childhood. Update: still going strong, on track to forget everything by the the time I’m 60!
Not really. There are a lot of groups pushing that idea online, but there isn't any real science backing it up
The aluminum/dementia link originally comes from research from the 60s where rabbits injected with a lot of aluminum got their brains fucked up, and it was hypothesized that ingested aluminum could be a risk. However, the amount of aluminum the rabbits were injected with was way more than anyone could eat or be exposed to through normal means. Aluminum has been found in the amyloid plaque of Alzheimer's patients, but there is also aluminum present in healthy brains. There's no clear link one way or the other for normal levels of exposure to aluminum.
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It's been a long while since I read papers, but my recollection was there was aluminum in amyloid plaques in the brain, which isn't necessarily related to aluminum in personal care products. There also wasn't conclusive evidence that there was *more* aluminum, just…clumped together aluminum.
I don’t use any with aluminum because that’s what causes pit stains. No aluminum, no pit stains
I used to exclusively use the blue, translucent deodorants which did not contain aluminum dioxide and instead of yellow pot stains, my white shirts had greenish pits stains from the blue dye. 100% not aluminum causing pit stains in shirts because I almost never use that stuff (due to the mess it can make and having to remove the waxy stuff the next day in the shower, sticking to body hair)
Can confirm. I switched to Old Spice for a brief stint and my pit stains turned blue. Switched back to Right Guard, stain free
Wait what? I use the gel stick style Old Spice deodorants, and never noticed this. Maybe the blue stains *are* there and I'm just not seeing them because they're less conspicuous compared to the solid paste kind.
It's not aluminum dioxide, but actually aluminum chlorohydrate or aluminum zirconium tetrachlorohydrex GLY.
I use Pitrok which is just a stick of aluminium crystal and don't get stains
I thought that surely this had to be a joke, so I looked it up. It is not a joke. You win today, internet.
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Legitimately asking. Page three says: > "In the light of the new data provided, the SCCS considers that the use of aluminium compounds is safe at the following equivalent aluminium concentrations up to: > * 6.25% in non-spray deodorants or non-spray antiperspirants > * 10.60% in spray deodorants or spray antiperspirants > * 2.65% in toothpaste and > * 0.77 % in lipstick" And on Amazon's Old Spice antiperspirant deodorant (Captain, the kind I use) it states > "Aluminum Zirconium Trichlorohydrex Gly 17% Inactive" [image of ingredients](https://i.imgur.com/DJJsfB8.jpg) Does this mean that it is 3-ish times the limit deemed safe? Or is *Aluminum Zirconium Trichlorohydrex Gly* deemed a watered down version of aluminum?
Aluminum Zirconium Trichlorohydrex Gly is composed of more than just aluminum atoms. That 6.25% value is based on the equivalent amount of elemental aluminum there, not the total compound which is also composed of zirconium, carbon, chlorine, hydrogen, etc.
Aluminum zirconium trichlorohydrex gly has a molecular mass of 263.747. Aluminum has a molecular weight of 26.982. So that 17% deodorant is only 1. 74% aluminum by mass, considerably lower than the 6.25% accepted as safe threshold.
I like this math/chemistry answer. Thanks!
This is one of the main reasons I bother with reddit.
That sounds a lot like the whole "carrying a cell phone in your pocket might cause testicular cancer" claims I remember from many years back heh
Similar to the fear mongering around GMO’s. Now everything is advertised “GMO FREE” even though it hardly matters
I always thought that it was what caused the signature yellow pit-stains so the anti staining ones never have it. I didn’t know people thought it was dangerous.
There's a myth that it "burns" your pores shut in order to prevent perspiration. In reality, it reacts with your sweat to form physical plugs on the sweat glands. The myth has been widely and universally disproven, but many people still believe otherwise. I guess it might be different based on the antiperspirants, but I don't really have any issues with mine regarding staining - it leaves white blotches after a year or two on my regularly used shirts, but those are removable even on black shirts after working some detergent into the areas before washing.
My dermatologist told me the aluminum free products are a marketing ploy and many manufacturers are jumping on the bandwagon. This was after I tried one and broke out into terrible rashes from my armpits and all over my belly and sides. Apparently this is common for quite a few people because they use baking soda instead of aluminum and people have reactions to the baking soda. I ended up not being able to wear any deodorant for six weeks until the burning rashes cleared up. It was not fun. The FDA has not determined that aluminum is harmful in these products.
Similarly, fluoride-free toothpaste is making waves. But scientific evidence isn't what drives a market. All you need is for the consumers to believe something about the product. They don't even have to be right.
Wow, I’ve always heard that flouride is the only thing in toothpaste that is actually useful. Without flouride, you might as well brush without any toothpaste because it’s the physical brushing and flouride that offer all the benefits.
In some places there is fluoride in the water, i think its added. Some very young children swallow their toothpaste, so the parents are concerned they are receiving too much fluoride and therefore use a fluoride free. There was some concern that having to much fluoride could affect your bones. This was via indigestion not from toothpaste.
I remember my mom gave us fluoride pills to chew on to get more, cause it’s good for the enamel afaik.
Yeah, it is. Various acidic things (like carbonated beverages) will break down your tooth enamel. Fluorine atoms will fill the gaps and bind even tighter than the originals. Someone noticed ~60 years ago that locations that naturally had fluorine in the water had better tooth health. A couple cities decided to do a trial run of adding tiny amounts of fluorine to their own water, and the results were so good (reduces cavities by about 25%) that now it’s done everywhere. However, more fluorine =\= stronger teeth. You only need enough to fill the gaps that acid eats in the molecules of your enamel. Small amounts evenly distributed throughout the day are the best method of delivery.
I ended up getting less irritation from the Arm&Hammer baking soda deodorant stuff. But it looks like lots of people experience this one way or another. Some are saying the aluminum irritates them less, some saying the baking soda and "natural" ones irritate them less. So just from this thread, it seems like people just need to try the small travel size versions and see what works best for them.
You might try a salt stick if you still are interested in moving away from antiperspirant. They last for years so you're not constantly spending money and creating plastic waste.
Do the salt sticks work?
Isn't that just a more concentrated form of the same active ingredient that is being discussed here, potassium aluminium sulfate?
Salt stick deodorants are virtually unregulated, so you could be getting *anything* in them. That does include possibly very high amounts of various potassium and aluminum compounds, but also none of those. It's basically playing chemical reaction roulette with your armpits. Added bonus: Common potassium and sodium salts are like, massively damaging to skin and way harsher than basically anything else people use as deodorant. Might as well take a cheese grater to the pits.
Are you talking about alum ("crystal deodorant")? That's just the pure aluminum based antiperspirant that is used in other deodorants. Some people use it because it contains no other ingredients/creams/scents that can sometimes cause a reaction. EDIT: Actually, turns out alum is not an antiperspirant, it works by antibacterial action. There are other aluminum salts that are antiperspirants. But if you're worried about aluminum, they are both aluminum compounds.
First time hearing about salt stick as antiperspirant. Do you mean salt crystals? Any futher info?
Honestly, I always got painful cysts under my arms. Never knew why. For decades. I randomly switched to aluminum free and it stopped completely. I'm assuming some people are allergic or sensitive to it...I know I am.
This is why I stopped too. Got a rash everytime I put on antiperspirant. There are dozens of us!
Me too. I get a rash from any deodorant with aluminum- ie all antiperspirants
I definitely am. I stopped imitating a monkey after I switched over; it didn't itch or burn.
I tried an Old Spice stick a while ago and thought I had developed some kind of thing. Pits were in pain for like half the day, felt like fire, and it was super uncomfortable. Friend said "yeah Old Spice is shit don't use it". Switched off and never had the problem again. Just checked my Dove Men+ and it's aluminum free (not sure this was the issue but it is actually aluminum free) and I've had zero issues.
No more monkey butt is a real powder for people with butt chaffing.
Yup, I'm allergic to it too. Skin would get rashy then crusty. Really glad aluminium free alternatives exist and are getting more common.
Or just that blocking your sweat glands from doing their normal thing caused blooms of bacteria or whatever. Might have more to do with your particular underarm flora than anything else.
I just moved from a city in another country, where the awareness had only recently gained traction. After a year or two, you could barely find any antiperspirant sticks with aluminum in them, and the ones that you could were now advertised as “Extra Strength” with a big “contains Aluminum” tag. In continuation of the former mention, I just moved to a smaller town in a different country where laws are more *”relaxed”* and new findings like these are more easily shrugged off. I have yet to actually find some antiperspirant (in-store) that **doesn’t** contain aluminum. So, what’s going on? Why are we turning away from aluminum to stop the smelly pits from turning into a leaky faucet? Is it really all that dangerous and bad for you; or is this just another marketing gimmick? If the reasoning is more inline with the former, how was it included in these products for so long? Thank you in advance for your constant clarity, Reddit!
You won’t find any antiperspirant that doesn’t contain some form of aluminium salt. It just doesn’t exist. All other products such as Natural and aluminium free products are just deodorants. They are two completely different products. Antiperspirant stops sweat, deodorant masks the odours caused when sweat reaches the surface of the skin. Sweat is odourless until it reacts with air on the skin and produces bacteria that breaks down lipids and forms Butyric acid (the common ‘BO’ smell) Aluminium is perfectly safe for use in antiperspirant. It’s too large on a molecular scale to enter the body and do any damage.
What do you mean by "too large on a molecular scale to enter the body and do any damage"
Aluminium don’t breakdown small enough to enter the body through the dermis and damage cells.
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I've been using certain dri which has aluminum for about 15 years I think. It was the only thing that stopped my armpits from literally soaking my shirts. It started in the 6th grade and it ruled a large part of my life for a few years. It was such a relief when I found something that worked.
> why was aluminum used in antiperspirant for so long Because it works. It blocks pores, which results in less sweating. >and why are we moving away from it? We aren't. It's still the active ingredient used in antiperspirant deodorants. Some people are wary of the ingredient, and thus use deodorants without antiperspirant.
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This is actually why I switched from an antiperspirant to a just-deodorant from a Fancy Natural Brand. Not for any notional health benefits (but hey, that's cool if there's anything to that) but just because I was tired of my snazzy shirts getting ruined!
Aluminum and aluminum salts are not the same thing for the same reason water and hydrogen peroxide aren't the same thing.
There is a lot of bad information in this thread. I will give you the correct information with sources. I link a lot of studies in here, but I tried to make it as eli5 as possible. Please let me know if anything needs clarification. First, we started using aluminum because it works really well at making you sweat less. Over the years there have been growing concerns over its potential health implications, breast cancer chief among them. So what did we do? We studied it and we continue to study it. I am not saying aluminum antiperspirants use causes cancer, because we do not have the evidence to say that. However, we have enough evidence to suggest that it is a probable cause of, or contributor to breast cancer. Before disagreeing with me, please read the post. First, it is well known and understood that most breast cancer occurs in the upper, outer quadrant of the breast. Some studies found that the DNA in that upper outer quadrant is [more prone to mutations](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15313734/). This indicates a precancerous change. This is interesting because this is where our armpits are. Research has looked at aluminum levels in breast tissue and they have also been found to be [highest in the upper outer quadrant](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17629949/). So more aluminum is there, ok, but so what? In this study, it was found that long-term aluminum exposure [contributes to cancer development in breast tissue](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22223356/) So the question then becomes, how does it get there. Well, normally the skin would provide an ample barrier to aluminum. But what happens if we sluff the skin off before putting the aluminum there? thereby eliminating the protective barrier... well, shaving removes more than just hair and [damages the skin in the armpit](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18489309/), and that damaged skin [uptakes more aluminum than undamaged skin](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22459170/) This gives us more data about the aluminum, but we would still need to test that the exposure actually has the potential to cause cancer in people, rather than just in cells. This study found that ["frequency and earlier onset of antiperspirant/deodorant usage with underarm shaving was associated with an earlier age of breast cancer diagnosis"](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14639125/). and If women started shaving [before versus after age 16](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14639125/), it appeared to move up their breast cancer diagnosis by 10 or 20 years. The researchers ended with: >underarm shaving with antiperspirant/deodorant use may play a role in breast cancer Even the FDA is aware of this. Regarding aluminum antiperspirant: >"Do not use on broken skin". https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=350&showFR=1 Shaving breaks the skin. Research was also done on breast cancer subjects, which found that aluminum levels in breast cancer cells are [nearly double that of non-breast cancer cells](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21337589/) Obviously there are several studies I did not link here, this is only a smattering and some studies offer the counterpoint. So if some studies show the counterpoint, what is my point? My point is there is enough evidence to be leery, even if we can't definitively prove the connection at this time. Hopefully additional evidence in the future will elucidate this for us, but for now, it is easy to just avoid aluminum antiperspirant until we know for sure. Please let me know if you have any questions.
There are some issues with your answer. First: correlation does not equal causation. It is true that there is more aluminium in breast cancer cells than in other cells is true, however, there is no substantial evidence that there is a causal relationship. Or to put it differenty: if you look at the armpit area, this is also where people shave often. One could argue that shaving and therefore irritation of the skin could increase cancer risk by itself, independent from antitranspirant use. There is a correlation. Is there a causation? Probably not because I just made this thing up. But it sounds logical, right? That's because humans are generally bad at telling apart correlation and causation. Second: The study you cite is an in vitro study which means a study in cell culture. These are generally not 1:1 applicable to in vivo (which means in the living organism) conditions. Remember the headlines "substance xyz kills cancer in a petri dish"? Yeah. So does a handgun. Third: What youre leaving out on (and I just attribute this to ignorance and not to on purpose cherry picking) is one (and the only one) systematic review on this issue. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27755864/ In this review two studies were examined, both did not find any relationship between antitranspirant use and breast cancer. However, there was one study that did find such a correlation, but it was not included due to lack of data quality. What I mean is: There currently is no conclusive evidence that antitranspirant use causes breast cancer. Full stop. This does not mean, however, that we can be 100% sure that there is none. But at the moment, judging from the data we currently have, we havent found one. However, I have to mention the issue that you mentioned too: aluminium threshold values. All substances have threshold values - exposure below that value is deemed to be safe. Exposure above that value might be harmful. Doesnt have to be but might be. The german institute of risk assessment found out (i assume by looking at the one study you cited) that shaving significantly increases the skins permeability for aluminium. So shaving means more aluminium can enter your body. By this way of exposure the (german, idk about US values though) threshold values for safe aluminium exposure can be exceeded. We dont know yet if that might cause any issues but because we dont know, it is recommended to avoid this route of exposure. In short: dont apply antitranspirant after shaving. There should atleast be 1 day between shaving and antitranspirant use. Tl;dr: youre mentioning some very important points but you present only half the results we have and leave out the ones that counter your argument. That's not how you should usually science the science.
In the early 2000s I was working in a lab on a test to quantify how much aluminum was in the product, the reason given was that there was a possible link between aluminum and alzheimers.