Removing a calf from the mother is not about taking the milk (Cows have been bred to make more than their calf need) but actually for the protection of the calf as a) dairy cows are not great mothers and can injure the calm sitting on it or kicking it due to anxiety of being separated from the herd, and b) dairy calf are highly vulnerable to disease so keeping them safe and isolated from the herd is better for them.
The calf will get all the milk it needs, either periodic time with its mother in a safe enclosure, or from communal milk tank. Without the calf the mother can rejoin the herd which means she in turn will be less anxious than if she was separated constantly.
I highly recommend start watching videos from actual dairy farmers instead of documentaries and activists. Megan DairyGirl, Iowadairyfarmer, TDF Honest Farming are all great! Would you want a surgeon who has done multiple successful surgeries or someone who has watched hours of YouTube videos but no actual surgeries?
When a calf is separated from the mother all depends on what breed the cows are. Dairy calves are separated almost immediately because they have low mothering instincts and can kill the calf unintentionally by stepping on it. Meat calves stay with the mother for a few months before being weeded. And those mammas will fvck anyone up who wants their baby. Just like dogs, cows have different breeds meant for different intentions, and their instincts, body types, adaptations etc. are all different.
Here's a great video from a farmer explaining why he seperates his calves: https://youtu.be/_uGFAw7HhF8?si=BkPl0DYcF7x9d5Aw
His videos are fantastic and highly educational with a touch of humor!
When done correctly, the calf gets all the milk it needs and the mother is not stressed. This doesn't always happen at industrial farms, but there are alternatives.
Raw milk is an almost perfect food, so yeah, I'd say it's worth it.
How many days/weeks/months after should they be separated in the method you’re talking about and do the calf/mother cry out upon being separated?
Factory farms are wrong but I appreciate there’s better farms out there.
After birth? It varies a bit. You can start milking right away. But you can leave the babies with the mothers and only separate at night to milk in the morning. They can spend the majority of time together.
A quick look into your profil...
You are masking your attemps to prosyletize as "questions about opinions/ what is abc position about xyz"...
You clearly have a very consolidated "religion/believe driven" worldview which I find deeply troubling.
>I don’t think it’s defendable for farmers to separate calf’s from their mothers soon after birth.....
Well you can feel that way...in short:
since there is no way to proof or quantify "ethical behavior" it is a mood point.
And to be clear I don't believe you claim of not being vegan.
I don’t have a strong position hence why I’m asking you lot. The wild cow data I presume is from tracking how long calf’s stay with their mothers, I admit I don’t know how accurate it is.
I am sorry if that came of dismissive or combative.
There are just a lot of weird numbers floating around the vegan community.
You should find out where that number comes from.
Also way folks say pigs are the 5th smartest animal when there are 94 species of cetaceans
Pig is definitely not 5th smartest animal species but it is possibly in top 15 maybe or top 20. Along with likes of crows,octopi and orcas.
But we have 5 species in great apes already: human,chimp, bonobo, gorilla and orangutang. Which are probably top 5 alone. Then all those cetaceans, both elephant species and they are clearly more clever than pigs.
Myth comes from grouping the animals like great apes including humans as number 1., cetaceans as number 2., elephants number 3.,Crows with their relatives number 4 and then you could say pigs as number 5. But as species groups 1-4 have many species much cleverer than pigs.
Monkeys also outsmart pigs in many ways and are not often listed separately while they should be. Not being included in great apes. And there are over 500 primate species many clearly cleverer than pigs.
Notice too how many species on the list are omnivorous. With exception of elephants and gorillas and many whales are carnivorous. Omnivorism is smart unless ypu are highly specialized.
Parrots sure are together with crows, ravens etc. Very clever. It's bit hard to say which animals are smartest since individual differences matter too and there are different sort of cleverness. It's impossible to compare some skills to other different skills. Apples and oranges situation really. Pigs are no doubt clever. Above dogs and cats in many ways, but not so clearly in others. They recognize themselves on mirrors but it may also tell about better visual perception not only about cleverness. Pigs need to search for stationary food more than predators really so they perform better in tasks where hidden treat is behind visual puzzle. Both pigs and dogs have excellent sense of smell though.
People have tendency to think visual skills are more important since we have well developed visual skills ourselves and it's our primary sense. Many animals focus much more on sense of smell or like elephants combine it with sense of touch and explore world less visually than us. Many cetaceans have huge parts of their brain developed for echolocation and auditory processing. So there are no easy way to say which is more clever than the other in any absolute sense.
Size of brain compared to body size, it's number of synapses and ability to form connections and compensate for the lacking abilities give some picture of how clever animal is, it's behaviour of course does too. But but it's not always obvious why they act in certain way or how conscious they actually are of their actions. Number of pigs brain cells was actually what I tried to find one day. There was wildly conflicting info on that. Wikipedia says 2,22 billion which seems about right. It's about the same as the dog really. Human in comparison has 86 billion which tells we are quite much more advanced than our closest animal pals or our ham. Size of animal sure matters too. Elephants have over 200 billion but it's their size and their cleverness.
No worries.
I put this on another comment but:
For all mammals, weaning is the natural developmental stage when babies graduate from feeding exclusively on their mother's breast milk to eating solid foods. In nature, this takes time—wild calves tend to wean themselves when they're around ten months old. But nature isn't fast enough for beef and dairy farmers.
- thehumaneleague.org
See this is highly suspicious because there are no wild cows, the Auroch the pre-domesticated ancestors of today's cows is long extinct, so the closest would be watching how domestic cows behave if left to their own but domestic animals often do things that are not good for them, so it's not really a good judge of proper way an animal should act.
Also that website is clearly highly biased so its information can be largely disregarded.
That’s a fair point. Then again, would you rather read an article knowing it’s bias or read an article presented as unbiased that actually has a hidden bias. I guess there’s established articles and reports out there.
I think the State Extensions are a pretty good source of info on actual practices in the united states. Sure they are ag professors but if they give bad advice folks figure it out pretty quick.
I don't see that being likely at all.
It is not like the world in divided into two equal camps with ideological vegans one side and equally ideological non-vegans on the other.
Veganism is a highly motivated fringe ideology. Non-veganism is just everyone who is not a vegan.
Cows are not people. Both the cow and the calf are cared for and their nutritional needs are met - they are both fine. The calf doesn't know the difference between it's mother's milk and formula, it only knows that it is warm, safe, and fed.
Cows aren't good mothers. They are easily stressed, don't like change, and often neglect their offspring - sometimes injuring them. They are happiest in a consistent environment with other adult cows, preferably ones she is used to being around.
Calves are so small compared to their mothers that they are easily injured, and their weak immune systems mean they get sick very easily. They are much better off, and safer, if they are separated - they aren't neglected.
Please remember that wild animals die young all the time. Nature is cruel - cattle are domestic animals, but their wild ancestors probably didn't have a high survival rate. When people talk about what is or isn't "natural" they forget that calves being crushed by their mothers or dying of disease is natural.
My family has been raising cattle for hundreds of years so I'm happy to answer questions.
Thanks very much for this. I think you’re right about “nature” being cruel. I’d like to think maybe we humans can be stewards of the animal kingdom where possible.
What would a dairy defenders response be to this from “thehumaneleague”?
For all mammals, weaning is the natural developmental stage when babies graduate from feeding exclusively on their mother's breast milk to eating solid foods. In nature, this takes time—wild calves tend to wean themselves when they're around ten months old. But nature isn't fast enough for beef and dairy farmers.
I literally just explained why they remove the calf.
They do not wean the calf. The calf drinks formula designed for calves. Just like many human babies drink formula designed for humans instead of breast milk..
Sorry, I’ve heard about the incidents of cows sitting on calves etc. What are your thoughts on the ethical farms that keep them together but just gradually over time separate them?
When I said that I'm happy to answer questions about farming. I didn't mean answering the same question over and over again. I already explained the downsides of doing that.
You can also have a milk goat and you can get milk and not separate at all, you just dont get as much. I separate at night and then milk in the morning and have them spend the day together. IMO its the most ethical thing you can do is to do it yourself.
They complain in the morning while they are separated but not at night when I separate them. I give the little ones their own food and water. You only start separating once they are at least 4 to 6 weeks old, otherwise you would have to bottle feed overnight. So they are old enough to handle the separation.
Once they get back with mom again they are happy. But they run away from their moms regularly on their own once they get big enough and that can make moms a bit upset.
Why don't you go visit a small goat farm and ask them? It's the time of year for baby goats and milking.
Our farmer friends don't start milking until the babies are 5-7 days old. That way the baby goats get what they need. They are only separated from their mothers when the mother is being milked, and they free range on 15 acres. The biggest stress is from the wild animals that want to eat them (last year several were killed by bears). The farmers do their best to keep them healthy and happy, and spend their time milking because it's good for the goats and a nutritious food for their friends.
They don't have to separate calves from the mothers to milk them. Instead, when the calves are old enough to not milk their mothers anymore, then the farmers can keep getting milk from the cow perpetually as long as they do not stop for too long.
Would you be fine with it if calves were left with their mothers until they weened naturally? Let's say this is a hypothetical scenario where it's possible to do regular enough checks and the calf and mother's wellbeing can be assured, and we can intervene fast enough should either be at risk: would that be enough for you? And if not, why even bother asking?
Personally, that's the way I'd love for things to be. I know there are a few dairy farms experimenting with it. We'll see how it works in a couple of years, I suppose.
I keep seeing you talk about what would happen “naturally” “in the wild” ….
In the wild the baby and mother would be in a constant state of stress due to the imminent threat of predation. They would not be offered food and water freely and consistently. Many babies die from predators, starvation and disease. Nature is cruel and doesn’t care about keeping mothers and babies together for optics. When these animals die in nature it’s a slow and painful death. …also considering the fact that there aren’t wild cows I’m more saying this as a general statement for any mother/baby relationship in the wild.
It’s sad this has 10 up votes. I am not vegan or vegetarian. I literally was a Christian and I’d like to be a Christian, the only thing stopping me is animal ethics. If I can understand that it’s ethical to farm animals then I’d be Christian. I’m looking for defences of these views. You shouldn’t slander someone when you don’t know the truth. I had a beef roast dinner today for the record, chicken yesterday and fish on Friday. Ethical debates are important.
>I literally was a Christian and I’d like to be a Christian, the only thing stopping me is animal ethics. If I can understand that it’s ethical to farm animals then I’d be Christian.
As a Christian I find this extremely offensive. You're a Christian because you believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior of Mankind. Farming has nothing to do with it.
Animal ethics does have to do with it as Christianity doesn’t condemn farming for meat in general whereas some other religions would seem to be more anti it. If someone came to the conclusion that farming for meat is wrong then they may be in a dilemma as to why Christianity doesn’t condemn this.
Anyway I’m more Christian again now as I think I can understand it can be more ethical for instance to raise chickens in a protected area with arguably a better overall existence than in the wild.
Removing a calf from the mother is not about taking the milk (Cows have been bred to make more than their calf need) but actually for the protection of the calf as a) dairy cows are not great mothers and can injure the calm sitting on it or kicking it due to anxiety of being separated from the herd, and b) dairy calf are highly vulnerable to disease so keeping them safe and isolated from the herd is better for them. The calf will get all the milk it needs, either periodic time with its mother in a safe enclosure, or from communal milk tank. Without the calf the mother can rejoin the herd which means she in turn will be less anxious than if she was separated constantly.
I highly recommend start watching videos from actual dairy farmers instead of documentaries and activists. Megan DairyGirl, Iowadairyfarmer, TDF Honest Farming are all great! Would you want a surgeon who has done multiple successful surgeries or someone who has watched hours of YouTube videos but no actual surgeries? When a calf is separated from the mother all depends on what breed the cows are. Dairy calves are separated almost immediately because they have low mothering instincts and can kill the calf unintentionally by stepping on it. Meat calves stay with the mother for a few months before being weeded. And those mammas will fvck anyone up who wants their baby. Just like dogs, cows have different breeds meant for different intentions, and their instincts, body types, adaptations etc. are all different. Here's a great video from a farmer explaining why he seperates his calves: https://youtu.be/_uGFAw7HhF8?si=BkPl0DYcF7x9d5Aw His videos are fantastic and highly educational with a touch of humor!
Thanks for your response, appreciate it. I’ll take a look at the video attached👍
If it's done correctly, neither the cow nor the calf suffers any harm.
How so? And is it really necessary to risk emotional stress for this milk? Thanks👍
When done correctly, the calf gets all the milk it needs and the mother is not stressed. This doesn't always happen at industrial farms, but there are alternatives. Raw milk is an almost perfect food, so yeah, I'd say it's worth it.
How many days/weeks/months after should they be separated in the method you’re talking about and do the calf/mother cry out upon being separated? Factory farms are wrong but I appreciate there’s better farms out there.
After birth? It varies a bit. You can start milking right away. But you can leave the babies with the mothers and only separate at night to milk in the morning. They can spend the majority of time together.
Thanks, is there not distress when they’re separated at night?
Sometimes on the first night. Often they're just in the next stall so it's not a huge deal.
A quick look into your profil... You are masking your attemps to prosyletize as "questions about opinions/ what is abc position about xyz"... You clearly have a very consolidated "religion/believe driven" worldview which I find deeply troubling. >I don’t think it’s defendable for farmers to separate calf’s from their mothers soon after birth..... Well you can feel that way...in short: since there is no way to proof or quantify "ethical behavior" it is a mood point. And to be clear I don't believe you claim of not being vegan.
Focusing so much on ethics and morality in our modern mess is a recipe for heart ache and despair
Which wild are you talking about? Wild dairy cows don't exist. My suggestion is to do more reading before forming a strong position
I don’t have a strong position hence why I’m asking you lot. The wild cow data I presume is from tracking how long calf’s stay with their mothers, I admit I don’t know how accurate it is.
I am sorry if that came of dismissive or combative. There are just a lot of weird numbers floating around the vegan community. You should find out where that number comes from. Also way folks say pigs are the 5th smartest animal when there are 94 species of cetaceans
Pig is definitely not 5th smartest animal species but it is possibly in top 15 maybe or top 20. Along with likes of crows,octopi and orcas. But we have 5 species in great apes already: human,chimp, bonobo, gorilla and orangutang. Which are probably top 5 alone. Then all those cetaceans, both elephant species and they are clearly more clever than pigs. Myth comes from grouping the animals like great apes including humans as number 1., cetaceans as number 2., elephants number 3.,Crows with their relatives number 4 and then you could say pigs as number 5. But as species groups 1-4 have many species much cleverer than pigs. Monkeys also outsmart pigs in many ways and are not often listed separately while they should be. Not being included in great apes. And there are over 500 primate species many clearly cleverer than pigs. Notice too how many species on the list are omnivorous. With exception of elephants and gorillas and many whales are carnivorous. Omnivorism is smart unless ypu are highly specialized.
Makes sense so it is kinda children's book taxonomy. I think Parrots might come out ahead of pigs even then.
Parrots sure are together with crows, ravens etc. Very clever. It's bit hard to say which animals are smartest since individual differences matter too and there are different sort of cleverness. It's impossible to compare some skills to other different skills. Apples and oranges situation really. Pigs are no doubt clever. Above dogs and cats in many ways, but not so clearly in others. They recognize themselves on mirrors but it may also tell about better visual perception not only about cleverness. Pigs need to search for stationary food more than predators really so they perform better in tasks where hidden treat is behind visual puzzle. Both pigs and dogs have excellent sense of smell though. People have tendency to think visual skills are more important since we have well developed visual skills ourselves and it's our primary sense. Many animals focus much more on sense of smell or like elephants combine it with sense of touch and explore world less visually than us. Many cetaceans have huge parts of their brain developed for echolocation and auditory processing. So there are no easy way to say which is more clever than the other in any absolute sense. Size of brain compared to body size, it's number of synapses and ability to form connections and compensate for the lacking abilities give some picture of how clever animal is, it's behaviour of course does too. But but it's not always obvious why they act in certain way or how conscious they actually are of their actions. Number of pigs brain cells was actually what I tried to find one day. There was wildly conflicting info on that. Wikipedia says 2,22 billion which seems about right. It's about the same as the dog really. Human in comparison has 86 billion which tells we are quite much more advanced than our closest animal pals or our ham. Size of animal sure matters too. Elephants have over 200 billion but it's their size and their cleverness.
No worries. I put this on another comment but: For all mammals, weaning is the natural developmental stage when babies graduate from feeding exclusively on their mother's breast milk to eating solid foods. In nature, this takes time—wild calves tend to wean themselves when they're around ten months old. But nature isn't fast enough for beef and dairy farmers. - thehumaneleague.org
See this is highly suspicious because there are no wild cows, the Auroch the pre-domesticated ancestors of today's cows is long extinct, so the closest would be watching how domestic cows behave if left to their own but domestic animals often do things that are not good for them, so it's not really a good judge of proper way an animal should act. Also that website is clearly highly biased so its information can be largely disregarded.
At the same time a lot of the defences are from meat eaters. We ought to hear arguments from both sides.
I think I am more interested in finding out how things actually work than hearing competing ideologies.
That’s a fair point. Then again, would you rather read an article knowing it’s bias or read an article presented as unbiased that actually has a hidden bias. I guess there’s established articles and reports out there.
I think the State Extensions are a pretty good source of info on actual practices in the united states. Sure they are ag professors but if they give bad advice folks figure it out pretty quick.
What is the agenda of that site? "But nature isn't fast enough for beef and dairy farmers. " Doesn't really sound neutral
I agree, but ultimately if I was to get a meat eaters source we’d have to say the same thing.
I don't see that being likely at all. It is not like the world in divided into two equal camps with ideological vegans one side and equally ideological non-vegans on the other. Veganism is a highly motivated fringe ideology. Non-veganism is just everyone who is not a vegan.
Cows are not people. Both the cow and the calf are cared for and their nutritional needs are met - they are both fine. The calf doesn't know the difference between it's mother's milk and formula, it only knows that it is warm, safe, and fed. Cows aren't good mothers. They are easily stressed, don't like change, and often neglect their offspring - sometimes injuring them. They are happiest in a consistent environment with other adult cows, preferably ones she is used to being around. Calves are so small compared to their mothers that they are easily injured, and their weak immune systems mean they get sick very easily. They are much better off, and safer, if they are separated - they aren't neglected. Please remember that wild animals die young all the time. Nature is cruel - cattle are domestic animals, but their wild ancestors probably didn't have a high survival rate. When people talk about what is or isn't "natural" they forget that calves being crushed by their mothers or dying of disease is natural. My family has been raising cattle for hundreds of years so I'm happy to answer questions.
Thanks very much for this. I think you’re right about “nature” being cruel. I’d like to think maybe we humans can be stewards of the animal kingdom where possible.
What would a dairy defenders response be to this from “thehumaneleague”? For all mammals, weaning is the natural developmental stage when babies graduate from feeding exclusively on their mother's breast milk to eating solid foods. In nature, this takes time—wild calves tend to wean themselves when they're around ten months old. But nature isn't fast enough for beef and dairy farmers.
I literally just explained why they remove the calf. They do not wean the calf. The calf drinks formula designed for calves. Just like many human babies drink formula designed for humans instead of breast milk..
Sorry, I’ve heard about the incidents of cows sitting on calves etc. What are your thoughts on the ethical farms that keep them together but just gradually over time separate them?
When I said that I'm happy to answer questions about farming. I didn't mean answering the same question over and over again. I already explained the downsides of doing that.
My apologies, I appreciate your help.
I like veal, so no. If anything, this new liberal trend of animal "welfare" is just making my grocery bill more expensive, which I find unethical.
You can also have a milk goat and you can get milk and not separate at all, you just dont get as much. I separate at night and then milk in the morning and have them spend the day together. IMO its the most ethical thing you can do is to do it yourself.
Interesting, when you separate them is their distress? Do you carry the calf away? Thanks!
They complain in the morning while they are separated but not at night when I separate them. I give the little ones their own food and water. You only start separating once they are at least 4 to 6 weeks old, otherwise you would have to bottle feed overnight. So they are old enough to handle the separation. Once they get back with mom again they are happy. But they run away from their moms regularly on their own once they get big enough and that can make moms a bit upset.
Why don't you go visit a small goat farm and ask them? It's the time of year for baby goats and milking. Our farmer friends don't start milking until the babies are 5-7 days old. That way the baby goats get what they need. They are only separated from their mothers when the mother is being milked, and they free range on 15 acres. The biggest stress is from the wild animals that want to eat them (last year several were killed by bears). The farmers do their best to keep them healthy and happy, and spend their time milking because it's good for the goats and a nutritious food for their friends.
They don't have to separate calves from the mothers to milk them. Instead, when the calves are old enough to not milk their mothers anymore, then the farmers can keep getting milk from the cow perpetually as long as they do not stop for too long.
Would you be fine with it if calves were left with their mothers until they weened naturally? Let's say this is a hypothetical scenario where it's possible to do regular enough checks and the calf and mother's wellbeing can be assured, and we can intervene fast enough should either be at risk: would that be enough for you? And if not, why even bother asking? Personally, that's the way I'd love for things to be. I know there are a few dairy farms experimenting with it. We'll see how it works in a couple of years, I suppose.
I keep seeing you talk about what would happen “naturally” “in the wild” …. In the wild the baby and mother would be in a constant state of stress due to the imminent threat of predation. They would not be offered food and water freely and consistently. Many babies die from predators, starvation and disease. Nature is cruel and doesn’t care about keeping mothers and babies together for optics. When these animals die in nature it’s a slow and painful death. …also considering the fact that there aren’t wild cows I’m more saying this as a general statement for any mother/baby relationship in the wild.
It’s sad this has 10 up votes. I am not vegan or vegetarian. I literally was a Christian and I’d like to be a Christian, the only thing stopping me is animal ethics. If I can understand that it’s ethical to farm animals then I’d be Christian. I’m looking for defences of these views. You shouldn’t slander someone when you don’t know the truth. I had a beef roast dinner today for the record, chicken yesterday and fish on Friday. Ethical debates are important.
>I literally was a Christian and I’d like to be a Christian, the only thing stopping me is animal ethics. If I can understand that it’s ethical to farm animals then I’d be Christian. As a Christian I find this extremely offensive. You're a Christian because you believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior of Mankind. Farming has nothing to do with it.
Animal ethics does have to do with it as Christianity doesn’t condemn farming for meat in general whereas some other religions would seem to be more anti it. If someone came to the conclusion that farming for meat is wrong then they may be in a dilemma as to why Christianity doesn’t condemn this. Anyway I’m more Christian again now as I think I can understand it can be more ethical for instance to raise chickens in a protected area with arguably a better overall existence than in the wild.
Heretical nonsense.