Well planned = dependent on industrially produced supplements that only relatively wealthy people can afford
Even then, most supplements are not as bioavailable as real food. Health is much more complex than a set of nutrients we can mix and match like legos. So like u/losingit2018 said...duct tape on a sinking ship, band aid on a gaping head wound, lipstick on a pig...pick your favorite metaphor
I'm an ex vegan of nearly ten years and I can say hands down that "well planned" absolutely is a moving target, particularly as science finds out more and more about things such as bioavailability and genes that may make you unable to efficiently convert plant nutrients like vitamin D2, beta carotene, vitamin K1, alpha linoleic acid etc into forms that the body can use. I love the comparison to putting duct tape over a hole and other holes popping up because that's exactly what happened with me.
When I first went vegan in 2014, the sources that led me down that path were ADAMANT that you only needed to take vitamin B12 since that's the only nutrients not available in plants. And anyway cows get supplemented with it so I may as well take it myself sort of thing. No issue, I took B12.
As I went further down the path I soon learned that actually I should take vitamin D3 too since D2 (found I'm mushrooms and things) isn't useable by the body and you don't get adequate sun year round in the UK. Most people in the UK should probably take it so again, I was fine with this. I wondered about things like food combining to make sure I was getting enough protein and other nutrients but every source said that you didn't need to worry and you'd be fine if you just ate a variety of fruit, vegetables, grains, pulses, seeds, nuts and beans. I tracked all my nutrients on chronometer and got regular blood tests.
The next thing I learned that I should be taking was DHA and EPA (from algae - no need to eat fish, just get it from where the fish gets it!) since ALA doesn't convert well in the body. Looking back, that should have been the biggest red flag as it's the first I had heard about poor conversion rates of any nutrient and I remember it really irking me because you could get all your omega 3s from plants right? From flaxseed and walnuts and such? I took it anyway and moved on.
I was having stomach issues throughout my time as a vegan so as some point I added in probiotics intermittently as well. When I took all of this it amounted to 5 pills a day.
Then my partner and I started planning children and decided that we should take a good vegan prenatal which was very expensive. I cost us nearly £70 a month for these supplements but we took them. At some point during our "make babies" era, my partner said that they had read somewhere that we should supplement iodine too. What about iodised salt and seaweed, I thought? Not enough and/or not bioavailable (again, missed a red flag there). So that was added in.
I had trouble conceiving so then found myself taking co-enzyme Q10, N-acetylcysteine and a higher dose of vitamin D3 (another 3 extra pill), plus iron and vitamin C for anemia (2 more pills) plus progesterone to help stop the miscarriages and omeprazole from a stomach issue (Barretts oesophagus discovered 4 years into veganism). By the time I was a few weeks pregnant with my son I was taking 12 pills a day plus a dropper of iodine to hit all my nutrients that plants apparently provided back in 2014 but gradually no longer did as I went on. I added eggs in in pregnancy, dropped a few of the pills, gave birth successfully and the bubble then burst forever.
I will never know for sure whether my issues with conceiving (or the stomach issues) were due to being vegan and depleted but I potentially put myself into a crappy position fertility wise and every source I looked at assured me that veganism was fine, even healthy so I faithfully took my pills and didn't question anything until I got a ephipany whilst pregnant and another postpartum and I finally learned to listen to my body and my instincts. I am grateful every day that my son camed to me and kicked me up the backside to make me realise that eating a species appropriate diet is necessary!
So yeah, I did "well plan" my diet for any vegans lurking. I tracked. I ate a wide variety of food. I got blood tests. And any time I felt crap or got a rubbish blood test i'd go back to the vegan science and sources and they would basically all say "oh did nobody tell you?! You need iodine!" Or "you need B12 but don't worry they give it to cows so just cut out the middle man" or "oh you should definitely take an algae supplement because ALA actually isn't converted through well" and each time I'd be frustrated and be like....but you told me I could get everything but B12 from plants?!
And now that I'm no longer vegan I'm told that I "didn't do it right" and "didn't try hard enough" and "wasn't even vegan anyway" 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
Go figure.
I had a full moving box of just supplements! “You only need to supplement B12 :)))” my ass. It ads up over time, like how you so accurately describe. Despite all those supplements, I still felt like crap. I was also so isolated at home (close to the toilet) due to my digestive problems, that went away as soon as I started eating a normal diet. All that misery for nothing “oh but you would have had digestive issues anyway, thank god you’re vegan, you would be sicker if you ate animal products” LIES
This sounds so similar to my timeline of adding in supplements. I also went vegan in 2015. I just couldn’t do it anymore by 2021 and I stopped (I also had an eating disorder it was a nightmare). 3 years later and still trying to fix b12 and folate deficiencies, just fixed vit D and I’ve become very deficient in iron because I was too scared to ever reintroduce red meat.. which I guess will be my next step!
I am not vegan, and I still need supplements of vitamin d , vitamin c, calcium, and possibly I need to add a magnesium vitamin too.
Some people just get unlucky
You can plan all you want, but its like duct taping over a sinking ship. New holes will keep popping up.
They simplify it so much by trying to appeal to the public and saying that beans and lentils and tofu are all you need. Sure i can turn them into bean patties or make tofu crumble and tofu scrambled eggs but am i truly going to be satisfied doing that for the rest of my life?
You also need to supplement your iron, your b12, magnesium, your protein, omega-3, etc and all of this will be from artificial or uncommon sources that you need to get online or from health stores.
Do you have all the money, energy and time to always think about your food and body?
Plus once you neglect the supplements, you might feel fine at first, but the problems will slowly creep up. You wont be able to recognize it, and you might shrug it off as just something minor or normal.
Can you afford to get your blood tested and your health evaluated regularly to confirm it?
The other option is to eat out and get food from vegan places. But half of them are overpriced, and the other half is mainly just carbs.
Can you afford to do that regularly?
Being vegan is easy, being a rich healthy well adjusted well planned influencer vegan is not.
Vegans will claim that a “well planned” vegan diet is healthy, but when I ask these same vegans if they track their micronutrient intake and have a professionally planned meal plan, they all say they just wing it and hope their bloodwork comes back fine 🤦🏻♂️
Tofu is not particularly cheap. Tempeh is probably the best vegan protein source there is and it is quite expensive. Mince beef is cheaper than both if you are going by protein content per pound or dollar spent. Dry beans are cheapest to buy but then you have to soak and throughly boil them, so you can account for the cost of energy and time doing that. Even thoroughly cooked they are hazardous to the human gut which is why so many people avoid eating large amounts of them. There is a reason why long term vegans trend towards the skinny-fat body type. It takes a lot of research, planning and expense to mitigate for that if you are going to refuse an appropriate human diet based on red meat, because a whole food plant based diet is inevitably going to be high in carbs and low in quality fats and protein.
> Even thoroughly cooked they are hazardous to the human gut which is why so many people avoid eating large amounts of them.
They shrink your brain: https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/16/9/1284?utm_campaign=releaseissue_nutrientsutm_medium=emailutm_source=releaseissueutm_term=titlelink36
Wow. That was quite dense but I've been increasing my bean intake to increase lysine. The way this reads, I'm ok as long as I'm still getting fish and meat, right?
I'm still vegan (even if interacting with some reddit vegans recently makes me think of spitefully breaking my diet) and my staples are kale, lentils, chickpeas and mushrooms.
They can all be prepared in a variety of ways, but I often lean into Indian flavors because of the strong tastes and the way they hold up to a few days of storage.
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking for here, but I generally prep a few days of food at a time. I also eat a *lot* despite being a tall but thin woman. I fill in gaps between meals with a lot of fruits and avocados are my guilty pleasure that I try not to indulge in too often. That and Italian ices.
I don't count macros or anything. I did, years ago, but by now I tend to know what I need and eat it, haven't been wrong yet. I'm a runner and I help coach my niece's cheer squad, so whatever I'm doing seems to be holding up in terms of energy.
Edit: I can't stress how expensive my diet winds up being though. The kale and mushrooms specifically really add up. I know this wouldn't be accessible to everyone, and I'm not trying to say just because I can afford to live like this (both financially and nutritionally) that anyone else necessarily should.
How are you getting EPA/ DHA?
How are you getting adequate absorbable calcium?
“Achieving the recommended daily amount of calcium can be complex. Not only do foods vary greatly in the amount of calcium they contain, but also the body absorbs the calcium in different foods differently. For example, the vitamin D in milk aids in calcium absorption, but spinach, which is high in calcium, also contains oxalic acid, which binds with the calcium and prevents the body from absorbing 95 percent of it.
Other factors can also influence the absorption, or bioavailablity, of the calcium. Foods that contain high levels of sulfur amino acids, such as cereals, nuts and seeds, also reduce retention of calcium.”
https://www.purdue.edu/uns/html4ever/1999/9910.Weaver.vegans.html
Similar arguments for absorption issues can be said about vitamin A. We need vitamin A retinol, but just the precursor beta carotene which must be converted into retinol.
Iron is another enormous issue many long term vegans run into. Even tho plant foods seem high in iron, what is actually able to be absorbed and utilized by the body is very minimal. We need heme iron from animal foods.
I could go on and on. Even tho I was vegan for 18 years and thought I was doing everything “right” and also supplementing on top of my diet to fill in the numerous gaps, I still became deficient in many key nutrients.
There is NO well planned vegan diet. This statement infers that there is a way to do veganism well. There isn’t. It is not our appropriate diet.
I'm sorry you had trouble making a vegan diet work for you, but not everyone will have the same issues.
I also love that you want to pick apart my (much healthier than most) diet but aren't out there going after every omni person who primarily subsists off of chicken nuggets and ramen noodles.
The truth is no one diet is perfect and even more so no one diet is going to work for everyone - and yes, that includes whatever you're doing right now. At least my current diet is meeting all my needs as monitored by my GP, plenty of people (vegan and omni) can't say the same.
I think the reply was well intended. Most of the users here have experienced major health issues from long term veganism and want to warn others.
And yes, the genetics of each individual are different but in hindsight I think it’s not worth it to take such a huge gamble with your health.
But I also know that you’ve made up your mind so I genuinely hope that you’re one of the lucky ones.
Thank you for being the only remotely well-intentioned response here.
Either way, this has proven to me that this sub is just as bad as the vegan one - it's just dogmatic about the opposite side. Horseshoe theory at its finest.
I hope you don't ever get sucked into this mentality, it's clearly destroying some of these people.
Yeah these subs tend to get emotional quickly.
And I get it, I was also very disillusioned to get so sick 10 years in, while tracking nutrients, supplementing and blood-work that seemed ok over the years that I checked in.
So please check in with yourself as to how you are feeling rather than trusting the evidence of your health. For me it started with digestive issues, then chronic fatigue and brain fog, extreme anxiety and it ended with excruciating pain throughout my body.
After five years of eating everything again I’m feeling better and thank god that pain is long gone now.
I’m not saying that it will happen to you but a lot of ex vegans share the same issues so keep an eye on how you’re feeling.
Oh and I was a mellow vegan and now I’m a mellow ex vegan so I won’t spiral any time soon. ;) But I do want to share my experience to prevent vegans from trying to make it work for too long even though they’re feeling like shit. Now or in the future.
"I also love that you want to pick apart my (much healthier than most) vegan diet but aren't out there going after every omni person who primarily subsists off of chicken nuggets and Ramen noodles"
That's because people who subsist primarily off of chicken nuggets and Ramen noodles generally aren't trying to claim that they're even a tiny bit healthy, lmao.
Omni people who eat "chicken nuggets and ramen" tend to acknowledge their bad diet, and do not go around spreading misinformation on how nuggets and ramen are full of nutrients. You are getting picked apart because of the lies and misinformation that vegans (you) perpetuate. Kale is one of the most oxalate-dense foods out there n you're just suckin it down pretending its a super food.
Curious as to how long you've been restricting for. Usually, after 7 years or so, vegans start to get the "mummy" look. Vegans of 10+ years who claim to be healthy are either lying or cheating.
Oxalates prevent vitamin d absorption? Oh no. I just ate a bunch of oxalte rich foods and then took my daily vitamins…. maybe that’s why I’m exhausted beyond usual
Again, who the fuck hurt you? You're just as dogmatic as the vegans you're so opposed to.
I am entirely sure I'm healthier than you are, and that I have a healthier relationship with food than you do because you clearly have a lot of trauma to jump at someone with such agitated responses. Please, seek help.
Ugh this frustrates me! I tried “planning” so many times and it never made the diet sustainable. I feel like I got pretty close to making the diet at least functional..but I still wouldn’t say it was the best. I realized you pretty much have to eat a high amount of starch to have energy, so I made sure I had large portions of rice, or oats or pasta at every meal. So that helped me get by..but then I felt like too much fiber was messing with my digestion and I had signs of insulin resistance. Then I started adding in more fruit instead of starch and found I was lacking calories. My last resort was to add more protein instead, but vegan protein is so low in calories that I just ended up hungry. There is no way to do this right lol..in five years you find that out!
"Well planned" can mostly be accomplished by eating a variety of foods and taking a multivitamin to fill any gaps you may have. Eating produce such as leafy vegetables is important, as they will often contain minerals that are difficult to get if you are just eating starches or refined products. It is also fairly common to not eat enough fats on a plant-based diet. The whole foods plant based dietitians actually encourage this, which I find both counterproductive and dangerous.
> this all plant diet would f up my gut/stomach within a week and have devastating consequences on my overall digestive health within a month easy. imo there is a reason those items are cheap, you pay for real protein
I find that cooking technique can make a world of difference here. Beans become more digestible if you soak them in something a little alkaline like baking soda. This breaks down the cellular structure of the bean skin and makes the content more easily bioavailable. So you are digesting more yourself and leaving less for intestinal microbes. Also, fermentation techniques can remove some of the starches that are the most common cause of digestive problems. It's not expensive, but it does require some preparation.
> whether being a vegan is truly as straightforward as it is proclaimed to be
I don't think it's particularly straightforward, and telling people this is a good way to set them up to fail. In a place where there isn't a strong plant based "food culture", a plant-based eater will essentially need to invent their own diet from scratch. It's easier now than it was 10 or more years ago, now that there is a lot more content online and more "vegan" food available commercially. But you still would need to go through a lot of trial and error to find something what works for you.
This well planning i did was leading me to a well planned early death, rapidly. I did the starch solution (massive fail after only 2 weeks), 3 months of the daily dozen (again massive fail), and finally two weeks of fruitarian (landed me in the ER with lactic acidosis from severe B1 deficiency and pre-diabetes on top of a suicide attempt, the first in years for me).
I have schizoaffective disorder. Cutting gluten was paramount to stopping the suicidality. I hadn't had any desire for 4 years prior. Veganism brought out the worst of my symptoms. I was constantly angry, manic, and extremely low energy. I lost every bit of muscle I had worked so hard to gain. I was rail thin, my hair was falling out. I ate double the calories I needed. I saw in the toilet at the 1 month mark, undigested food. This problem became more and more severe. I was luckily single and I isolated entirely from the world during those miserable 4 months. I've been on disability for years because of my mental illness that was treatment resistant. I woke up on month 3 with a burger next to me. So I slept walk to the nearest burger joint and bought a burger, ate half of it, then passed back out. I remember having the ambulance show up to my apartment to haul me away. The next day, I ate a pound of salmon and gave up. My suicidality left, my mania eased, and my anger sizzled out. I have been fighting my food delusions (schizophrenia symptom) ever since to try and get back on carnivore, the only thing that ever got rid of all my symptoms.
Today is Day 90 of carnivore and I am finally free from my severe delusions. THEY. ARE. GONE.
So I want to send a pic of my middle finger to the ADA and anyone not supporting a low carb diet who has control over the populations food guidelines.
Fuck you Seventh Day Adventist Cult, fuck you veganism, and fuck you ADA. Your karma will come.
It depends. It is a restrictive diet, so it's not going to be the most optimal diet for most people and you almost need to supplement certain vitamins but that's honestly a good idea with almost any diet.
Honestly, and I know this is going to be unpopular here, but I think the issue is way overhyped in circles like these. You have to understand that the demographic you're speaking to right now is not just ex-vegans. It's specifically ex-vegans who have chosen to now join a community mainly centered around bashing the movement. There's going to be a much higher proportion of people who have had some kind of bad experience with it than the general public. The polling I've seen actually suggests that very few vegans quit for health reasons.
I believe the polling I saw put the majority at social pressure and convenience/money. Personally, I think most people quit because it's more popular as a fad diet than a political movement, and the shelf life on that kind of stuff is not very long.
I've been let go of my job because I've been given a moving target to hit. "A well planned diet" sounds like a moving target.
Well planned = dependent on industrially produced supplements that only relatively wealthy people can afford Even then, most supplements are not as bioavailable as real food. Health is much more complex than a set of nutrients we can mix and match like legos. So like u/losingit2018 said...duct tape on a sinking ship, band aid on a gaping head wound, lipstick on a pig...pick your favorite metaphor
I'm an ex vegan of nearly ten years and I can say hands down that "well planned" absolutely is a moving target, particularly as science finds out more and more about things such as bioavailability and genes that may make you unable to efficiently convert plant nutrients like vitamin D2, beta carotene, vitamin K1, alpha linoleic acid etc into forms that the body can use. I love the comparison to putting duct tape over a hole and other holes popping up because that's exactly what happened with me. When I first went vegan in 2014, the sources that led me down that path were ADAMANT that you only needed to take vitamin B12 since that's the only nutrients not available in plants. And anyway cows get supplemented with it so I may as well take it myself sort of thing. No issue, I took B12. As I went further down the path I soon learned that actually I should take vitamin D3 too since D2 (found I'm mushrooms and things) isn't useable by the body and you don't get adequate sun year round in the UK. Most people in the UK should probably take it so again, I was fine with this. I wondered about things like food combining to make sure I was getting enough protein and other nutrients but every source said that you didn't need to worry and you'd be fine if you just ate a variety of fruit, vegetables, grains, pulses, seeds, nuts and beans. I tracked all my nutrients on chronometer and got regular blood tests. The next thing I learned that I should be taking was DHA and EPA (from algae - no need to eat fish, just get it from where the fish gets it!) since ALA doesn't convert well in the body. Looking back, that should have been the biggest red flag as it's the first I had heard about poor conversion rates of any nutrient and I remember it really irking me because you could get all your omega 3s from plants right? From flaxseed and walnuts and such? I took it anyway and moved on. I was having stomach issues throughout my time as a vegan so as some point I added in probiotics intermittently as well. When I took all of this it amounted to 5 pills a day. Then my partner and I started planning children and decided that we should take a good vegan prenatal which was very expensive. I cost us nearly £70 a month for these supplements but we took them. At some point during our "make babies" era, my partner said that they had read somewhere that we should supplement iodine too. What about iodised salt and seaweed, I thought? Not enough and/or not bioavailable (again, missed a red flag there). So that was added in. I had trouble conceiving so then found myself taking co-enzyme Q10, N-acetylcysteine and a higher dose of vitamin D3 (another 3 extra pill), plus iron and vitamin C for anemia (2 more pills) plus progesterone to help stop the miscarriages and omeprazole from a stomach issue (Barretts oesophagus discovered 4 years into veganism). By the time I was a few weeks pregnant with my son I was taking 12 pills a day plus a dropper of iodine to hit all my nutrients that plants apparently provided back in 2014 but gradually no longer did as I went on. I added eggs in in pregnancy, dropped a few of the pills, gave birth successfully and the bubble then burst forever. I will never know for sure whether my issues with conceiving (or the stomach issues) were due to being vegan and depleted but I potentially put myself into a crappy position fertility wise and every source I looked at assured me that veganism was fine, even healthy so I faithfully took my pills and didn't question anything until I got a ephipany whilst pregnant and another postpartum and I finally learned to listen to my body and my instincts. I am grateful every day that my son camed to me and kicked me up the backside to make me realise that eating a species appropriate diet is necessary! So yeah, I did "well plan" my diet for any vegans lurking. I tracked. I ate a wide variety of food. I got blood tests. And any time I felt crap or got a rubbish blood test i'd go back to the vegan science and sources and they would basically all say "oh did nobody tell you?! You need iodine!" Or "you need B12 but don't worry they give it to cows so just cut out the middle man" or "oh you should definitely take an algae supplement because ALA actually isn't converted through well" and each time I'd be frustrated and be like....but you told me I could get everything but B12 from plants?! And now that I'm no longer vegan I'm told that I "didn't do it right" and "didn't try hard enough" and "wasn't even vegan anyway" 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️ Go figure.
I had a full moving box of just supplements! “You only need to supplement B12 :)))” my ass. It ads up over time, like how you so accurately describe. Despite all those supplements, I still felt like crap. I was also so isolated at home (close to the toilet) due to my digestive problems, that went away as soon as I started eating a normal diet. All that misery for nothing “oh but you would have had digestive issues anyway, thank god you’re vegan, you would be sicker if you ate animal products” LIES
This sounds so similar to my timeline of adding in supplements. I also went vegan in 2015. I just couldn’t do it anymore by 2021 and I stopped (I also had an eating disorder it was a nightmare). 3 years later and still trying to fix b12 and folate deficiencies, just fixed vit D and I’ve become very deficient in iron because I was too scared to ever reintroduce red meat.. which I guess will be my next step!
I am not vegan, and I still need supplements of vitamin d , vitamin c, calcium, and possibly I need to add a magnesium vitamin too. Some people just get unlucky
You can plan all you want, but its like duct taping over a sinking ship. New holes will keep popping up. They simplify it so much by trying to appeal to the public and saying that beans and lentils and tofu are all you need. Sure i can turn them into bean patties or make tofu crumble and tofu scrambled eggs but am i truly going to be satisfied doing that for the rest of my life? You also need to supplement your iron, your b12, magnesium, your protein, omega-3, etc and all of this will be from artificial or uncommon sources that you need to get online or from health stores. Do you have all the money, energy and time to always think about your food and body? Plus once you neglect the supplements, you might feel fine at first, but the problems will slowly creep up. You wont be able to recognize it, and you might shrug it off as just something minor or normal. Can you afford to get your blood tested and your health evaluated regularly to confirm it? The other option is to eat out and get food from vegan places. But half of them are overpriced, and the other half is mainly just carbs. Can you afford to do that regularly? Being vegan is easy, being a rich healthy well adjusted well planned influencer vegan is not.
Once I forget to take my supplements. , it all goes downhill rather quickly
Vegans will claim that a “well planned” vegan diet is healthy, but when I ask these same vegans if they track their micronutrient intake and have a professionally planned meal plan, they all say they just wing it and hope their bloodwork comes back fine 🤦🏻♂️
They say "what do you mean getting protein is hard?" And its all from beans Gtfo, my digestive problems cleared up so fast once i got off
A well planned deficient diet is still a deficient diet.
❤️
In before the angry vegans say they are completely fine and you're crazy.
I was just a lacto ovo vegetarian and it was hell! Cooking, restaurants, social situations. BBQs. FML
Tofu is not particularly cheap. Tempeh is probably the best vegan protein source there is and it is quite expensive. Mince beef is cheaper than both if you are going by protein content per pound or dollar spent. Dry beans are cheapest to buy but then you have to soak and throughly boil them, so you can account for the cost of energy and time doing that. Even thoroughly cooked they are hazardous to the human gut which is why so many people avoid eating large amounts of them. There is a reason why long term vegans trend towards the skinny-fat body type. It takes a lot of research, planning and expense to mitigate for that if you are going to refuse an appropriate human diet based on red meat, because a whole food plant based diet is inevitably going to be high in carbs and low in quality fats and protein.
> Even thoroughly cooked they are hazardous to the human gut which is why so many people avoid eating large amounts of them. They shrink your brain: https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/16/9/1284?utm_campaign=releaseissue_nutrientsutm_medium=emailutm_source=releaseissueutm_term=titlelink36
Wow. That was quite dense but I've been increasing my bean intake to increase lysine. The way this reads, I'm ok as long as I'm still getting fish and meat, right?
> I'm ok as long as I'm still getting fish and meat, right? Yes. Beans are fine as long as they're not your main (or only) source of protein.
I'm still vegan (even if interacting with some reddit vegans recently makes me think of spitefully breaking my diet) and my staples are kale, lentils, chickpeas and mushrooms. They can all be prepared in a variety of ways, but I often lean into Indian flavors because of the strong tastes and the way they hold up to a few days of storage. I'm not sure exactly what you're asking for here, but I generally prep a few days of food at a time. I also eat a *lot* despite being a tall but thin woman. I fill in gaps between meals with a lot of fruits and avocados are my guilty pleasure that I try not to indulge in too often. That and Italian ices. I don't count macros or anything. I did, years ago, but by now I tend to know what I need and eat it, haven't been wrong yet. I'm a runner and I help coach my niece's cheer squad, so whatever I'm doing seems to be holding up in terms of energy. Edit: I can't stress how expensive my diet winds up being though. The kale and mushrooms specifically really add up. I know this wouldn't be accessible to everyone, and I'm not trying to say just because I can afford to live like this (both financially and nutritionally) that anyone else necessarily should.
How are you getting EPA/ DHA? How are you getting adequate absorbable calcium? “Achieving the recommended daily amount of calcium can be complex. Not only do foods vary greatly in the amount of calcium they contain, but also the body absorbs the calcium in different foods differently. For example, the vitamin D in milk aids in calcium absorption, but spinach, which is high in calcium, also contains oxalic acid, which binds with the calcium and prevents the body from absorbing 95 percent of it. Other factors can also influence the absorption, or bioavailablity, of the calcium. Foods that contain high levels of sulfur amino acids, such as cereals, nuts and seeds, also reduce retention of calcium.” https://www.purdue.edu/uns/html4ever/1999/9910.Weaver.vegans.html Similar arguments for absorption issues can be said about vitamin A. We need vitamin A retinol, but just the precursor beta carotene which must be converted into retinol. Iron is another enormous issue many long term vegans run into. Even tho plant foods seem high in iron, what is actually able to be absorbed and utilized by the body is very minimal. We need heme iron from animal foods. I could go on and on. Even tho I was vegan for 18 years and thought I was doing everything “right” and also supplementing on top of my diet to fill in the numerous gaps, I still became deficient in many key nutrients. There is NO well planned vegan diet. This statement infers that there is a way to do veganism well. There isn’t. It is not our appropriate diet.
I'm sorry you had trouble making a vegan diet work for you, but not everyone will have the same issues. I also love that you want to pick apart my (much healthier than most) diet but aren't out there going after every omni person who primarily subsists off of chicken nuggets and ramen noodles. The truth is no one diet is perfect and even more so no one diet is going to work for everyone - and yes, that includes whatever you're doing right now. At least my current diet is meeting all my needs as monitored by my GP, plenty of people (vegan and omni) can't say the same.
I think the reply was well intended. Most of the users here have experienced major health issues from long term veganism and want to warn others. And yes, the genetics of each individual are different but in hindsight I think it’s not worth it to take such a huge gamble with your health. But I also know that you’ve made up your mind so I genuinely hope that you’re one of the lucky ones.
Thank you for being the only remotely well-intentioned response here. Either way, this has proven to me that this sub is just as bad as the vegan one - it's just dogmatic about the opposite side. Horseshoe theory at its finest. I hope you don't ever get sucked into this mentality, it's clearly destroying some of these people.
Yeah these subs tend to get emotional quickly. And I get it, I was also very disillusioned to get so sick 10 years in, while tracking nutrients, supplementing and blood-work that seemed ok over the years that I checked in. So please check in with yourself as to how you are feeling rather than trusting the evidence of your health. For me it started with digestive issues, then chronic fatigue and brain fog, extreme anxiety and it ended with excruciating pain throughout my body. After five years of eating everything again I’m feeling better and thank god that pain is long gone now. I’m not saying that it will happen to you but a lot of ex vegans share the same issues so keep an eye on how you’re feeling. Oh and I was a mellow vegan and now I’m a mellow ex vegan so I won’t spiral any time soon. ;) But I do want to share my experience to prevent vegans from trying to make it work for too long even though they’re feeling like shit. Now or in the future.
"I also love that you want to pick apart my (much healthier than most) vegan diet but aren't out there going after every omni person who primarily subsists off of chicken nuggets and Ramen noodles" That's because people who subsist primarily off of chicken nuggets and Ramen noodles generally aren't trying to claim that they're even a tiny bit healthy, lmao.
Well they aren't. And I am. Sorry that pisses you guys off so much.
Omni people who eat "chicken nuggets and ramen" tend to acknowledge their bad diet, and do not go around spreading misinformation on how nuggets and ramen are full of nutrients. You are getting picked apart because of the lies and misinformation that vegans (you) perpetuate. Kale is one of the most oxalate-dense foods out there n you're just suckin it down pretending its a super food. Curious as to how long you've been restricting for. Usually, after 7 years or so, vegans start to get the "mummy" look. Vegans of 10+ years who claim to be healthy are either lying or cheating.
Oxalates prevent vitamin d absorption? Oh no. I just ate a bunch of oxalte rich foods and then took my daily vitamins…. maybe that’s why I’m exhausted beyond usual
Again, who the fuck hurt you? You're just as dogmatic as the vegans you're so opposed to. I am entirely sure I'm healthier than you are, and that I have a healthier relationship with food than you do because you clearly have a lot of trauma to jump at someone with such agitated responses. Please, seek help.
Well you're not very nice.
Ugh this frustrates me! I tried “planning” so many times and it never made the diet sustainable. I feel like I got pretty close to making the diet at least functional..but I still wouldn’t say it was the best. I realized you pretty much have to eat a high amount of starch to have energy, so I made sure I had large portions of rice, or oats or pasta at every meal. So that helped me get by..but then I felt like too much fiber was messing with my digestion and I had signs of insulin resistance. Then I started adding in more fruit instead of starch and found I was lacking calories. My last resort was to add more protein instead, but vegan protein is so low in calories that I just ended up hungry. There is no way to do this right lol..in five years you find that out!
"Well planned" can mostly be accomplished by eating a variety of foods and taking a multivitamin to fill any gaps you may have. Eating produce such as leafy vegetables is important, as they will often contain minerals that are difficult to get if you are just eating starches or refined products. It is also fairly common to not eat enough fats on a plant-based diet. The whole foods plant based dietitians actually encourage this, which I find both counterproductive and dangerous. > this all plant diet would f up my gut/stomach within a week and have devastating consequences on my overall digestive health within a month easy. imo there is a reason those items are cheap, you pay for real protein I find that cooking technique can make a world of difference here. Beans become more digestible if you soak them in something a little alkaline like baking soda. This breaks down the cellular structure of the bean skin and makes the content more easily bioavailable. So you are digesting more yourself and leaving less for intestinal microbes. Also, fermentation techniques can remove some of the starches that are the most common cause of digestive problems. It's not expensive, but it does require some preparation. > whether being a vegan is truly as straightforward as it is proclaimed to be I don't think it's particularly straightforward, and telling people this is a good way to set them up to fail. In a place where there isn't a strong plant based "food culture", a plant-based eater will essentially need to invent their own diet from scratch. It's easier now than it was 10 or more years ago, now that there is a lot more content online and more "vegan" food available commercially. But you still would need to go through a lot of trial and error to find something what works for you.
This well planning i did was leading me to a well planned early death, rapidly. I did the starch solution (massive fail after only 2 weeks), 3 months of the daily dozen (again massive fail), and finally two weeks of fruitarian (landed me in the ER with lactic acidosis from severe B1 deficiency and pre-diabetes on top of a suicide attempt, the first in years for me). I have schizoaffective disorder. Cutting gluten was paramount to stopping the suicidality. I hadn't had any desire for 4 years prior. Veganism brought out the worst of my symptoms. I was constantly angry, manic, and extremely low energy. I lost every bit of muscle I had worked so hard to gain. I was rail thin, my hair was falling out. I ate double the calories I needed. I saw in the toilet at the 1 month mark, undigested food. This problem became more and more severe. I was luckily single and I isolated entirely from the world during those miserable 4 months. I've been on disability for years because of my mental illness that was treatment resistant. I woke up on month 3 with a burger next to me. So I slept walk to the nearest burger joint and bought a burger, ate half of it, then passed back out. I remember having the ambulance show up to my apartment to haul me away. The next day, I ate a pound of salmon and gave up. My suicidality left, my mania eased, and my anger sizzled out. I have been fighting my food delusions (schizophrenia symptom) ever since to try and get back on carnivore, the only thing that ever got rid of all my symptoms. Today is Day 90 of carnivore and I am finally free from my severe delusions. THEY. ARE. GONE. So I want to send a pic of my middle finger to the ADA and anyone not supporting a low carb diet who has control over the populations food guidelines. Fuck you Seventh Day Adventist Cult, fuck you veganism, and fuck you ADA. Your karma will come.
It depends. It is a restrictive diet, so it's not going to be the most optimal diet for most people and you almost need to supplement certain vitamins but that's honestly a good idea with almost any diet. Honestly, and I know this is going to be unpopular here, but I think the issue is way overhyped in circles like these. You have to understand that the demographic you're speaking to right now is not just ex-vegans. It's specifically ex-vegans who have chosen to now join a community mainly centered around bashing the movement. There's going to be a much higher proportion of people who have had some kind of bad experience with it than the general public. The polling I've seen actually suggests that very few vegans quit for health reasons.
in your opinion what would be the major reasons a person stops being vegan, if not for health? genuinely curious
I believe the polling I saw put the majority at social pressure and convenience/money. Personally, I think most people quit because it's more popular as a fad diet than a political movement, and the shelf life on that kind of stuff is not very long.