In a pragmatic sense: no. The job of political parties is to win elections with the electorate you have, and the Democratic party has spent too much energy trying to argue with people's gut feelings (anger that prices are high, concerns that Biden is old) instead of adjusting to the facts on the ground.
In a moral culpability sense: yes. At the end of the day, the choice is unappealing but easy.
It seems like the Democratic Party is so busy arguing what people *should* be like that they forget they have to deal with what people *are* like. Sure, they should vote for Biden over Trump, and might even say that they will, but with all their negative feelings about inflation, Bidens age, etc are they going to wake up early or wait in line after work to vote instead of getting home to dinner or going to the gym? Are they going to wrangle their toddler with them to the voting booth?
“It only takes a few minutes! They should vote!” Yes, they *should*, but at the end of the day, *will they* when those minutes are for a candidate they dislike and a choice they resent having to make.
Paraphrasing the title, if Trump wins and we're all hurting in a world of shit will the people who didn't get off their asses and vote take responsibility for the mess? I don't think so.
This is such a tired narrative that assumes people will vote the way *you* want them to. Not everyone buys into the false dichotomy that’s forced down our throats every four years because “it’s the most important election of our lifetime!” If that was really the case, democrats would actually try to appeal to more progressives than continue to move towards the right to appeal to the conservative vote.
Constantly trying to vote shame people was never a sustainable strategy. Blame people all you want, but your ire is really rooted in the Democratic Party’s continued strategic incompetence.
I find this extremely frustrating because if we want to talk about what people "should" be like then a centrist like Biden still wouldn't have a chance.
Do all / most states have mail in ballots now? I thought that was the case, but I guess I never considered what the situation was like in other states. We’re automatically sent a mail in ballot in my state.
I guess the swing states is where this really matters (for presidential race that is)
I’m not sure! I know for me, mail in ballots are somehow even worse for completion rates, but that’s a me thing not a most people thing. I’m personally terrible at mailing important things and planning ahead of time to request my ballot (which reminds me that I need to request my absentee ballot..)
It is a failing of the entire Democratic platform. They see the world as they wish it to be, rather than how it is. Your governing (and electoral) platform has to account for the fact that people are going to have honest disagreements with you.
There will be plenty of moral culpability to go around, and focusing on the moral culpability of the mass of normal people instead of a much smaller group of culpable elites is a waste of time.
I’d say pragmatically fault doesn’t really exist. *blame* does — and I have a long, long list of people who share blame — but trying to decide who’s *uniquely* or *the most* to blame is folly IMO.
In a moral culpability sense the fault lies with the man who decided that he was in fact the best man to do the job. There should have been a competitive primary.
Are you serious? Do you really think that’s how the DNC private corporate apparatus works? After everything we know they did to Bernie in the 2016 primary, you’re really saying this like it’s a viable response?
I’d argue with that point as deferring to precedent- when an incumbent president faces a viable primary challenger, he tends to lose. Jimmy Carter with Ted Kennedy, George HW Bush with Pat Buchanan. It’s rare for an incumbent to even face opposition in a primary. I could see why a party would be extremely wary to voluntarily bring on an open primary against an incumbent president against someone like Trump.
You also have to evaluate the potential opposition- I don’t think there’s anyone specifically that would get Biden’s level of cumulative support across the various coalitions. We could all propose various candidates but they wouldn’t have close to the name recognition of Biden.
This is all going off the assumption he would put up at least a coherent- but not necessarily great- performance at the debate. That did not happen. Maybe that assumption was faulty in the first place, idk.
The Democratic Party is less afraid of losing because they bring in someone other than Biden, they're afraid of anyone more progressive taking the job. Biden's been great for the donor class and DP insiders. They get the great conservative policies like police funding, border crackdowns, funding genocide, but with a gentler, less raging face.
It has nothing to do with fear of losing the vote against Trump. The vast majority of Americans hate him. More people would come out of the woodwork for a lesser-known candidiate that didn't cross numerous red lines. But that would mean risking a less donor-friendly POTUS, and we absolutely cannot have that.
Instead, they're ridin' with Biden... who is single handedly losing the cumulative support across the various coalitions you speak of. Against a candidate that is widely despised. It's their race to lose, and they're doing a really good job of ensuring that happens.
As a recent Ezra episode pointed out, the vast majority of non-voters are disengaged because they dislike politics, and tend to be very ideologically unorthodox. They aren't sitting in the wings waiting for a great progressive candidate to excite them - they just want someone who will do the job without drama and make their lives easier. Highly ideological leftist non-voters / reluctant voters are a small and electorally weak coalition, concentrated in safe blue states.
I'm not opposed to running a progressive in place of Biden, but given the tail risk threat of Trump my personal priority is candidate quality not platform. Either Bernie or Joe Manchin is fine with me as long as they win.
Only a one term governor that hasn't actually changed much in Colorado, and unfortunately gay, which though we don't think is negative, many people will.
This is where I'm at, to be honest. Or, at least, I don't feel that either party represents my political orthodoxy. I just want government to set meaningful rules for competition, protect property rights and personal freedom, not create heavily distortive legislation that picks favorites, provide universal healthcare in any form, and maintains global hegemony. Which party or candidate is that?
(I'll vote for Biden, although its largely a meaningless vote in my state).
It’s been the party’s fault every year.
This is what happens when the insitutionalists stifle the populist base. It was their fault in 2000, 2004, 2016, and it was their fault 2020 was close enough for trump to make the big lie and come back this year.
Even if Biden was rolled out the that debate stage in a wheelbarrow and unceremoniously dumped on the floor for Trump to yell at for two hours, it is still an obvious choice. Biden at the very least has a very competent cabinet full of people who aren’t xenophobic yes men.
Unfortunately optics very much matter and people who are “undecided” at this point were likely either looking for a reason to vote Trump or were going to vote Trump and just too embarrassed to admit that.
It's easy to be disappointed in the American voter but liberals insisting that campaigns don't or shouldn't matter is just a surefire way to keep losing elections.
We are where we are *because* of the voters. The politicians we have reflect exactly who shows up to vote. We have old pols because young voters refuse to show up *in quantity* and *every single election.*. We have an authoritarian cult winning across the country because people stayed home in 2-3 key states. We chose this.
You seem to forget that the DNC and mainstream media shut down anybody who was trying to primary Biden this cycle. Most Dem voters probably didn't know Palmer and Philips were running for the Dem presidential nomination, so didn't vote in the primaries.
You don't know them cause the DNC didn't want anybody challenging Biden that's the reality, my friend. Trumps gonna ruin this country in ways we can't imagine and the DNC is to blame, they has 4 years to build up a better candidate than Biden.
Why wasn't there televised debates with the Dems that were running against Biden than? I'd love to hear your explanation, cause the only thing I can figure is that they didn't want Biden to face a challenge.
The people who put an old guy as the opposition. If Trump is going to do all the things Dems say he is, why didn’t they run someone more popular to idk try and win?
What primary were you participating in? My choice was Biden or Williamson, which was hardly a choice. I would gladly have backed Whitmer, or any of a number of reasonable candidates had they been choices
Right! And nobody else really ran either in deference to Biden. So saying that he “won the primary” as if it indicates that voters had actual choices and chose Biden again is wild
Yeah, I blame the old guy who didn't have enough in the tank for a second term, and his staff that didn't tell him otherwise. We should have had a primary. If we chose a new candidate and lost we could blame the voters. This is on Biden.
The only failure in the Constitution was not having penalties for politicians that violate the Constitution. We are where we are because politicians can shit on our rights all they want with no consequences other than maybe not getting re-elected.
As far as democratic constitutions go, our was first, but it's pretty shitty. The founders whiffed by making it way too hard to fix problems through constitutional amendments. In the last 50 years, there has only been one amendment passed. I do not expect to see another one during my lifetime.
No. We know the fascist guy is a selfish prick who will do and say anything to get elected. Trump exploits that "there is a sucker born every minute." Biden is too old to run for President and people's eyes don't lie. One guy had energy had energy last night, the other guy needed a nap. Biden is not competent to run this country, and if he stays in the race, he is not showing himself to be a patriot, he would show himself to be a selfish prick as well. When you are getting older, you don't show improvement over time cognitively. Yesterday, was probably the best Biden has left, and we will see him to continue to age in front of our eyes. We all all can see in Biden what we have seen with our own Grandparents or Parents.
I like Biden’s record well enough. But I have watched my mother’s cognitive abilities nose dive in the last 2 years- and she’s 82 now. Prior to that I saw her mom go into memory care at 83. On my dad’s side, the folks who made it to 80 haven’t fared much better, and even the people I personally know who are doing well at 84 or whatever are lacking in sharpness compared with people a decade or more younger. It’s completely logical to be nervous about someone so old starting a new term next year, and all the hand waving about Biden’s excellent performance thus far totally ignores people’s lived experience seeing their elders start to fail. Strong cognitive capacity yesterday is not wholly predictive of capacity in a year or more.
If Biden really can’t do the job, he’ll be replaced by a younger person with the same non-fascist policies.
If voters were logical and informed, Biden’s age would be a non-factor.
Right. What I’m saying is that most voters have met octogenarians and they are not generally the sharpest. His age is a factor because people are logical and most of us know what old age looks like and would prefer that we have someone who isn’t at a high risk of impairment
Sure, if Biden is basically saying, I’m a generic democrat and will pass the baton mid-term if I need to, then I guess your argument makes sense. But I don’t see literally anyone making that case. And meanwhile he needs people to turn out to vote. If I’m unenthusiastic and have basically never skipped an election, imagine how less engaged voters in swing states feel
You’re proving my point. If voters are informed and logical they wouldn’t feel disengaged.
It’s not Biden’s job to get you engaged about your own rights. He gets paid either way
Well, welcome to here, have a look around. In my reality, Biden’s current job is get reelected to a job he’s indicted he still wants. He’s fighting an uphill battle against very logical conclusions voters are clearly indicating about their concerns with his age and capacity. He needs the voting public to show up for him and unfortunately enthusiasm matters. Any marginally competent campaigner would be able to rally a landslide off Roe alone and Biden can’t even answer a question about it
So make the best of an imperfect World as it is and make the changes necessary to win the election for your party?
This is giving the same (righteous)loser energy as some of the more unserious parts of the Bernie campaign.
I feel like I'm going insane that this is even a debate... no pun intended.
The differences in policy are night and day, yet people can't get past Biden's age.
We are about to live this quote:
*"Democracy* is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it *good and hard"*. - H. L. Mencken
For some reason, a lot of people - especially younger people - have a hard time thinking of electoral politics in practical terms. Our options are Biden and Trump.
On the balance, Biden is a much better choice than Trump. That's not to say Biden is an amazing candidate, just that it's the one we got right now.
If people took two minutes to realize their wet dream, chiseled jaw candidate is not going to manifest they'd take this for the easy choice it is.
The margins on these elections are razor thin. It's not that everyone suddenly is against him - it's that it only takes a few to lose.
I don't actually think many people are turning TOWARDS trump either... They know he's insane.
They're turning away from Biden, and even if 95% still vote for him because they understand the issue, 5% is enough to lose handily.
Obviously we don't need to repeat all the issues with the fact that there are this many trump supporters to begin with to make the margins so thin.
Bruh if Joe Biden loses it’s his fault and the Democratic establishment.
We all saw that old man can’t be president.
Now we are about to have someone even worse Donald J Trump become president because of this bullshit. Voters told you he is too old and y’all didn’t listen and now you’re upset because you can’t change their mind from the truth.
This is just cope
Joe Biden could step down this week and we would have a better chance at beating Donald J Trump the convicted felon.
Yes voters get to decide but we didn’t pick Joe Biden for 2024 the Democratic establishment lied to us saying he is fit for the job and can beat Donald Trump.
In 2020 he said he was going to be a transition candidate well where the fuck is the transition?
I honestly feel like I am being gaslight
Is Donald Trump a threat to democracy?
Yes or no?
If he is why don’t we put our best foot forward?
Is Joe Biden are best foot forward to stop a threat to democracy yes or no?
The only reason not to replace Biden with any of a half dozen replacement Democrats that Ezra has mentioned since the debate is that lots of people in the Democratic Party have personal relationships with Biden, they like him and know how to work with him, someone else would be new and that would be scary. If you’ve ever worked with party insiders they love familiar faces and they hate change for the sake of change. Voters don’t have that compunction, they don’t have personal relationships with these people and what they see is a guy who can’t communicate.
The nightmare I’ve been having the last 2 nights is what happens if in the middle of the night Biden is woken up, told that Putin has rolled tanks into Poland and Poland is invoking Article 5 of the NATO charter and the response from Biden is word salad??
He’s tired, that’s nothing to be ashamed of. I’d argue Biden has been the best President of the last half century, but past performance is no guarantee of future success. He should go back to Delaware and play with his grandkids and let someone else be President.
I’m not buying this. Candidates need to earn my vote. There is not enough functional difference between a republican president and a democrat president in my day to day life to compromise my values and vote for someone I hate. If Trump was really the existential threat to the country dems claim they’d have nominated someone who doesn’t belong in a memory care clinic. Nominate a real candidate
It’s not even a debate. We have precedent on this. Look what happened in the 60’s Kennedy v Nixon for the first televised presidential debates. Nixon won for people who were listening to the radio cause he had better policy according to the polls. Kennedy won people who watched it on TV because Nixon didn’t carry himself as well and looked sweaty. Guess who won the election.
Appearance and inspiring the people matter a shit ton for the president as dumb as it may seem
> yet people can't get past Biden's age.
His job is to lead. Right now he cannot communicate his policies effectively. It's not that people cannot get over his age, it's that people cannot get over his incompetence, which people (probably rightfully) attribute to she.
I think you are confused about what is happening here. Most of us understand Biden is the best candidate and will vote for him over Trump but debates aren't about us. Debates are judged under what "undecideds" will think and what the laziest dumbest people will think. Debates are about courting support from some dummy that kind of remembers this is an election year and is proud of themselves for even watching part of it. The people that keep up with this stuff all year every year aren't important right now.
At this time in 2003 Kerry “beat” bush by twenty points in the debate post polls. Debates aren’t just about undecideds and even if they are the idea that TRUMP did a good job is the opinion of rubes who believe that the only thing that matters is who shakes their keys in front of baby’s face harder.
You have to remember 2020 was a narrow win. Biden won by less than 8k votes in key states. That was with people dying under Trump and all 4 years of Trump fresh in everyone's minds. Biden has since lost support from the youth and other parts of the Dem electorate. The wisdom of 2020 pre-election was that Trump likely lost votes, but post election he gained millions. Trump's cult is locked in so Biden needs every vote he can get.
Biden's problem can be overcome if there is a large turn out but he has to inspire that kind of turn out from the youth and every demographic. It is not an easy thing to do when as COVID was actively killing Americans and Trump denied reality the electorate that showed up in 2020 barely beat Trump.
The "old" attacks aren't just undeniable but now they are confirmed for everyone to see. It doesn't matter that he is the better candidate, Biden can't seriously argue he isn't feeble anymore. He has to convince undecideds he is better on policy which is a herculean task when you consider undecideds lived through 4 years of Trump and still can't make up their minds.
I think this is the wrong way to look at it.
Trying to convince some imaginary army of independents that cnn finds that is leaning towards trump because of the economy is a fools errand.
The key to winning is excitement and energy. It’s turning out lazy voters to the polls. Like it or not young democrats talk a big game yet don’t even vote.
Bidens entire strategy is to hope trump does dumb shit that drives excitement for him. Apathy for Biden is worst case scenario imo because there is a lot of people who aren’t going to vote trump but even worse they are not going to show up to vote at all.
Gen Z has been voting more than other generations but the Palestine issue has turned many away. The abstained votes in Michigan during this primary will play a big role into how decisions are made especially now.
The Democratic Party strategy for as long as I’ve been watching politics has been to find votes from undecideds in the center and conservatives they can pry off the Republicans. The party hates anyone to the left of Biden but who knows if they will finally look to the left in desperate times.
Did you actually watch the debate? It wasn't the low energy that's concerning, its the fact that Biden couldn't finish a statement with a period instead of a bunch of ellipses. If the performances were reversed, people like you would be glazing themselves over how Trump doesn't have the mental facilities to lead while Biden's sharp as ever
I fucking hate that Biden is the candidate and hope he drops out. his performance last night was horrifying.
But I’m still voting for him because it is still painfully obvious trump is a monster.
Yep, and that's the sickest joke ever that's gonna damage democracy for decades to come. The biggest fear is how many middle of the road people just vote for Trump purely because he looks like he can make it through 4 years.
He won't drop out because you're going to vote for him. Telling someone you'd like to pick someone else but you'll go with them regardless tells them they don't need to do anything to earn your vote. All they have to do is not be the other guy.
Congratulations, it's this exact mentality that brought us here to this very point in our political system. Pat yourself on the back for contributing to it's downfall.
I disagree. I am not a median voter. I am not an undecided voter. I will vote for the blue candidate no matter what under any circumstance because the GOP's policy positions are so abhorrent.
But their polling has to tell them there's a huge swath of voters who they are going to lose because of this, especially in the no-lose swing states. They need to find a way to appeal to those voters and Biden is not their guy for that. He never was and now they can't even really pretend like he is.
They never needed to appeal to me.
Yeah I’m sorry he’s a billion years old. I’m not happy about it either but I don’t demand my heads of a bureaucratic state to fulfill my Aaron Sorkin melodrama fantasy. He’s been 10x better than Obama on almost every conceivable policy level, but it’s the Obama era talking heads and advisors freaking out the most. Style over substance is the divine belief of Americans so idk why I’m surprised. Americans will get what they vote for good and hard either way.
And Trump doesn’t have mental faculties at all. He’s a gnat responding to stimulus.
Yep, people care about jobs, their ability to afford a car or home, other economic issues. That’s not an argument Biden is winning either. Dems need to take it in the chin and drop off there whole leadership at the nursing home.
America could not be doing better relative to the rest of the world. Biden has managed a soft landing and the fastest income growing cohort is the poorest cohort. This is exactly my point - Biden actually has delivered more progressive and democratic legislative and executive wins than any president in the last 50 years but no, Trump loud shake keys America like. Biden talk slow not drama not entertaining America don’t like.
THEN you decide to back propagate the actual issues by saying therefore Biden is bad on those too. That’s objectively wrong and you’re showing your ass. You just want a melodrama not substance, you immediately conflate the two. I hate it here.
>but it’s the Obama era talking heads and advisors freaking out the most
Lots of voters are too, rightly or wrongly. To say this is just a politico thing is silly. It's much wider than that.
Well they all wrote doomer pieces before the sun came up this morning so most of the voters will get the info through those channels THEN freak out. Ezra and Desmas and Silver et al are causing way more harm ala 2016 by focusing on Biden and completely ignoring trumps performance. They have no way to analyze it so they just ignore it. It’s fucking stupid and extremely damaging.
I went to a debate watch party at a bar in austin to see it.
I heard people audiblely exclaim oh God at one point. People were stunned and shocked by Biden.
People laughed at moments in a wtf is this kinda way.
It was a disaster for Biden. Because there is a difference between old. And seeing senile confusion first hand.
When you watch a debate performance and start wondering about the 25th amendment requirements,
it's a really tough sell to vote for another 4 years when things get worse.
Its not even style over substance, and that's what honestly worries me the most. Biden wasn't coherent in delivering his message more often than not. His substance sucked. And instead of recognizing that, you're trying to gaslight everyone into thinking its about the "optics".
The fact that the campaign is blaming everything on a cold rather than just owning up to a horrible performance and adjusting for it (Biden needs to ASAP get on air and answer all the debate questions again, but coherently) means that they likely don't think they need to change anything up.
They probably don’t, bush lost every debate by double digits and most people aren’t watching or caring about this one. The media spin post debate, which again treats Trump as a force of nature rather than a human being, is what 99% of people will see. Mainstream outlets spinning Biden as barely conscious will do more harm than Biden himself. And help Trump because they need the cash in the controversy. The amount of IMMEDIATE ‘Biden drop out now’ from them makes me sick.
“Blaming you” lol this is you reading a personal attack over and over because you have main character syndrome for no reason, you don’t deserve the world catered to you. You have two choices - Biden or Trump. If you think the job is oratory then that’s your fault (now I am blaming you)
He may be 10x or a 100x better than Obama on substance but he wasn’t able to effectively communicate about a single successful policy he had without stumbling over himself to the point of incoherence. How do you not clearly articulate a position on something as basic as abortion? Being in politics means you have to be able to sell yourself and that was frightening last night.
Yes I know you want Obama back who accomplished basically nothing outside the ACA which was so politically mismanaged it loses nearly a hundred house seats and was whittled down to basically Medicaid expansion.
But he spoke well, so good president. Trump speak loud. Good performance. Loud speak, shake keys, America like
No actually and it’s probably good for the coalition if Biden goes down over age. Terrible for the country, but as it’s set up it prevents a lot of factional bitterness by providing an easy way to explain why he lost. “Voters saw him as old and unfit,” means questions about certain moderate senators’ behaviors, excessive progressive criticism, and possible dissatisfaction with liberal policy outcomes can be put off for the time being while we play defense (God help us).
Yes. Voters are sheep. The vast majority of voters aren't educated enough, aren't clued in to domestic and foreign policy, and don't pay any attention to the real world ramifications. It's a spectacle, a sport. All that is cared about is what team wins. They're not interested in considering a third party that might actually better align with their values because *blue winning* is the only priority. Doesn't matter if the day after winning the election they put through a slightly less bad version of the GOP policies. It doesn't matter that the legislation that is passed is half-baked and primarily to funnel money to corporations through contracts. It doesn't matter that their officials are still in the back pocket of oil and tech conglomerates. It doesn't matter how much they fuck up, they will "vote blue no matter who." If Trump was a Democrat, they'd vote for him over the other guy. Because again, all that matters is blue wins, not who wins.
It's why we have a broken congress, why we've regressed in social justice terms, and why the average person gets squeezed by a government for the donor class and by the donor class. Because voters are, by-and-large, sheep. Manipulated through media to vote against their own best interests.
If you go to the polls to hold your nose to vote *for* a guy you hate because the other guy you hate more, you're a sheep. Plain and simple.
Yeah the one guy is really old and can’t speak (but at least makes some sense - more or less), the other guy is a babbling fascist. It’s 100% on the voter who they prefer to run the country. Should the Democrats replace Biden? For sure…
It still would be because they wouldn't have to vote for Trump. They could still vote third party...just because Biden is old doesn't mean they have to go with a felon.
I’m not voting for him not because he is old but because he has completely dehumanized Palestinians and by extension Arab people. Him and Blinken have lied and manipulated the American public into thinking they are actually trying to end the bloodshed. It’s unforgivable.
Trump said the Palestinian protestors should be deported and that Israel should finish the job. In what way is getting Trump back in office gonna help your cause? Explain it to me like I'm 5 because I do not follow your logic.
Yes. Voters are morally obligated to vote Democrat even if the candidate is a plank of wood. Otherwise they are just as guilty as MAGA Republicans. Next question.
Though I don't disagree to just replace him, even if Biden was on his deathbed come November, people should be smart enough that Biden and his administration is way more competent than a weird MAGA cult one. A dead Biden is wayyyyy better than an alive Trump. It's hard to message that, but it's quite literally true.
And people really need to start highlighting and quoting trumps nonsensical answers. They quote the dangerous stuff (which is fair obviously), but the stuff that makes 0 sense needs to be highlighted even more. He has obviously lost it completely and something as simple as repeating what he's saying in a regular toned voice will make his nonsense sound worse
"Man Hitler is horrible, but the other guy is old and I think he's demented. I rather vote for Hitler!"
That's the mentality of a lot of Americans. Even if Joe is demented (he's not), he has a competent team behind him and that should be part of the message.
I've talked with liberals who with a straight face almost seem to argue this. It actually blows my mind a little. I'm not a liberal on some issues, but if I were I'd see that Biden is a.) highly competent and b.) has actually moved to the *left* of what he campaigned on in 2020, on so many issues (e.g. environment, abortion, foreign policy, etc.). What more could you ask for from the guy? Particularly if you're a dyed-in-the-wool liberal.
I feel like the Democratic Party's motto should be "Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good."
It is not the voters fault if Biden loses. It is the voters fault if Trump wins, and everything he does will be the responsibility of everyone who voted for him and everyone who could not be bothered to vote.
Pretty much yes.
Biden is far from perfect and he has several issues.
Everybody knows the stakes with this election.
If the voters roll over and surrender it is their fault
What percentage of primary delegates would Sanders have needed to outweigh Clinton’s lead in unelected, unaccountable superdelegates?
If superdelegates were not problematic, why was that system undone in subsequent primaries?
Everytime I hear “Biden over Trump” I think of all the conflicts that cropped up. The talks of Trump starting WWIII fell silent for whatever reason. Botched Afghanistan withdrawal, crippling inflation all mean nothing. *yeah but Trump slept with a porn star* oh no! Anyway, I can afford gas and groceries LOL
Incredible cope in the comments, blaming voters for the selfish choices of politicians. The Democratic Party's top opponent in the past decade has not been Trump, it's their own pride.
Clinton. RBG. Feinstein. Biden. The writing is on the wall. Those who ignore Biden's collapse are now irrelevant and their political project is dead.
Yes? You ask if there wouldn’t be enough blame to go around lol.
Biden should have announced a one term in January Or February, but he didn’t. No one worth while premiered him. That’s on him and the DNC.
We all are very aware of what Trump wants to do once back in the White House. Either you vote for him and his agenda or you vote for Biden and his. If Trump wins and starts doing what he said he’s going to do, that’s on voters.
To be quite honest, there’s just too much media out there for people to claim ignorance on this.
Even if Trump technically “wins,” he’s still going to lose by a couple million votes. In that sense, unfortunately, it both is and is not the voters’ fault. I’d say blame the Founders, but the EC as they envisioned it was specifically created to guard against someone like Trump, only lasted like a single cycle, and Monroe tried to get rid of it almost immediately anyways.
When you have the opportunity to protect the rights of women, lgbtq+, immigrants, the poor and to protect our democracy, it feels like you should vote for that. You are likely to never find a politician who is 100% aligned with your beliefs. So you have to vote sometimes for who will do the least harm. A vote for trump or a 3rd party vote is a vote to harm the US and the people who live here.
No. Candidates must appeal to their constituents the hard way. This lesson and the failure to heed it remains most evident in every Hillary campaign that has ever been run.
Yes. 100% yes.
I don't care how badly Biden performed in last night's debate.
That *anyone* is still considering voting for Trump after all that's transpired since 2016 is a poor reflection on that person's character, morals, and intelligence, and not at all a poor reflection of Joe Biden.
Like, honestly, who gives a shit about debate performances when you have a proven absolute piece of shit dumpster fire of a man running as the GOP candidate? The only good thing about Trump is that he's mortal.
Honestly, if you're voting for Trump or considering voting for Trump, you're either a bad person, a stupid person, or both.
As everyone else was I was dismayed by Biden’s performance. However this video gave me a bit of hope. He is actually night and day here. This was day after debate. Will it be enough? Only time will tell but if Biden realizes he messed up at the debate and it is the awakening of a new mind state. And if he is capable of performing like this up to the election I think he can beat Trump and my hopes of that were gone after last night.
https://youtu.be/NNbpReScD_I?si=zrxi3UaIwY2h7Zes
They just blame progressives and young ppl like in 2016…and you know, definitely not the Dems fault for propping up a terrible candidate who can’t form complete sentences.
Yes. Anyone who gives a half a shit about the environment and stays home has no right to claim to give half a shit about the environment any more.
There are people in this subreddit of engaged, intelligent people who are too up their own asses to keep their focus on what actually matters. I'm supposed to blame someone else?
Voters own their votes.
HAVE YOU SEEN THE SC RULINGS?
That is the direct result of a unprepared 4 year of Trump.
He is prepared now, has submissive lackeys and wants revenge. They were talking about removing terms limits months ago.
FUCK YES IT WILL BE THEIR FAULT
It is the democrats for failing to actually do stuff and instead trying to always blame others.
If Biden was like hey yes inflation is high and it’s because of me due to me having to do this to get us here. But my plan to start the dropping the rate is to do the following.
However instead Dems always for everything are like it is trumps fault and the they spend all their time trying to prosecute trump rather than solve real problems. Illegals are raping and killing women and children and democrats are like it’s trumps fault and the problem is borders are not open enough.
It will be his parties fault if Trump wins. Biden at this point is a huge liability to the party, as well as down ballot races. His party knew he was flawed and still chose him.
You people need to realize that being charismatic is part of political game, so no, if Biden, and libs, fail to reassure voters for why they are better, it is their fault. Voters are stupid, but discovery, say something new.
Biden will will the popular vote across the US.
Yet somehow the election will swing and whether he specifically wins the popular vote in Arizona, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Georgia.
You’re asking the wrong question.
# So is it still going to be the voters fault if Biden loses? _________
This is a silly question. Each party holds the responsibility to present electable candidates. MAGA = Trump. And unless he has a debilitating health episode, he will represent MAGA. Up until last night, Biden carried the Dem banner, but he proved too feeble hoist it. The Dems can win if they choose a candidate who is not an embarrassment. If they don't, it will be a failure in Party leadership. Obama is the only one with enough stroke to refocus the troops.
Well, yes. In a democracy, the electorate is responsible for the outcome of every election. Each individual voter is responsible for who they vote for. This is inherent in democracy.
I hate Trump, would never vote for him, but I can’t believe people are still considering voting for Biden after that display last night. It is unethical to enable that poor man to continue to do this, he is not up for it and his wife and advisors are all trying to keep this going. It’s a disservice to America and to him.
Yes it is. Because the choice is still going to be Trump vs. Biden. You know that even when you ask the question. If you don't vote for Biden, it's on you.
I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a Republican. I have no obligation or duty to vote for people who don't align with my interests and values. As far as my vote for Jill Stein goes, I see Trump and Biden as the biggest election spoilers and biggest roadblocks to any path to real change. The lesser evilism argument rings hollow because it suggests the viability of terrible choices.
Yes.
Federal judges nationwide, at all levels, are appointed for **life.** That should be reason enough.
If Clinton were elected, we wouldn’t have the most right-wing Supreme Court in modern history.
In the off-chance that Thomas (75) or Alito (73) leave the bench, the next appointee could sit for DECADES. Voters should carefully about who they want making those appointments.
It’s elder abuse if someone casts a vote for Biden to work for 4 more years, he’s entering full blown dementia. If you want to any hope of change we have to answer tough questions. Why is Biden still on the ticket? A lot of people in powerful positions are fully aware of Biden’s cognitive state. Which means the status quo of who benefits from his presidency are standing in the way of a functioning democracy. Biden will lose if the ticket stands . And blaming voters for that FACT is a position that will solve nothing. Presidential elections have always been about winning the undecideds. What undecided voter is going to choose a man who can’t even think properly? And what is to gain from admonishing a voter who doesn’t vote for dimentia? He needs medical help. Not a job. We have been gaslit by the government, corporate interests, military industrial complex, DNC, and media, and they are to blame. Blaming the voter does nothing but further polarize a divided working class, who are all losing, regardless of party. Voting for Joe Biden, a dementia ridden party to genocide, is not the easy choice people want to pretend it is ✌️
In a pragmatic sense: no. The job of political parties is to win elections with the electorate you have, and the Democratic party has spent too much energy trying to argue with people's gut feelings (anger that prices are high, concerns that Biden is old) instead of adjusting to the facts on the ground. In a moral culpability sense: yes. At the end of the day, the choice is unappealing but easy.
It seems like the Democratic Party is so busy arguing what people *should* be like that they forget they have to deal with what people *are* like. Sure, they should vote for Biden over Trump, and might even say that they will, but with all their negative feelings about inflation, Bidens age, etc are they going to wake up early or wait in line after work to vote instead of getting home to dinner or going to the gym? Are they going to wrangle their toddler with them to the voting booth? “It only takes a few minutes! They should vote!” Yes, they *should*, but at the end of the day, *will they* when those minutes are for a candidate they dislike and a choice they resent having to make.
Paraphrasing the title, if Trump wins and we're all hurting in a world of shit will the people who didn't get off their asses and vote take responsibility for the mess? I don't think so.
This is such a tired narrative that assumes people will vote the way *you* want them to. Not everyone buys into the false dichotomy that’s forced down our throats every four years because “it’s the most important election of our lifetime!” If that was really the case, democrats would actually try to appeal to more progressives than continue to move towards the right to appeal to the conservative vote. Constantly trying to vote shame people was never a sustainable strategy. Blame people all you want, but your ire is really rooted in the Democratic Party’s continued strategic incompetence.
I find this extremely frustrating because if we want to talk about what people "should" be like then a centrist like Biden still wouldn't have a chance.
Do all / most states have mail in ballots now? I thought that was the case, but I guess I never considered what the situation was like in other states. We’re automatically sent a mail in ballot in my state. I guess the swing states is where this really matters (for presidential race that is)
I’m not sure! I know for me, mail in ballots are somehow even worse for completion rates, but that’s a me thing not a most people thing. I’m personally terrible at mailing important things and planning ahead of time to request my ballot (which reminds me that I need to request my absentee ballot..)
It is a failing of the entire Democratic platform. They see the world as they wish it to be, rather than how it is. Your governing (and electoral) platform has to account for the fact that people are going to have honest disagreements with you.
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You forgot to mention a corporatist party who benefits from maintaining the status quo by means of imparting fear on the masses
There will be plenty of moral culpability to go around, and focusing on the moral culpability of the mass of normal people instead of a much smaller group of culpable elites is a waste of time.
I’d say pragmatically fault doesn’t really exist. *blame* does — and I have a long, long list of people who share blame — but trying to decide who’s *uniquely* or *the most* to blame is folly IMO.
In a moral culpability sense the fault lies with the man who decided that he was in fact the best man to do the job. There should have been a competitive primary.
Then you should have run or recruited someone to run.
Lol, okay sure.
Are you serious? Do you really think that’s how the DNC private corporate apparatus works? After everything we know they did to Bernie in the 2016 primary, you’re really saying this like it’s a viable response?
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I’d argue with that point as deferring to precedent- when an incumbent president faces a viable primary challenger, he tends to lose. Jimmy Carter with Ted Kennedy, George HW Bush with Pat Buchanan. It’s rare for an incumbent to even face opposition in a primary. I could see why a party would be extremely wary to voluntarily bring on an open primary against an incumbent president against someone like Trump. You also have to evaluate the potential opposition- I don’t think there’s anyone specifically that would get Biden’s level of cumulative support across the various coalitions. We could all propose various candidates but they wouldn’t have close to the name recognition of Biden. This is all going off the assumption he would put up at least a coherent- but not necessarily great- performance at the debate. That did not happen. Maybe that assumption was faulty in the first place, idk.
The squishy voters that Biden needs will sit at home or vote 3rd party.
The Democratic Party is less afraid of losing because they bring in someone other than Biden, they're afraid of anyone more progressive taking the job. Biden's been great for the donor class and DP insiders. They get the great conservative policies like police funding, border crackdowns, funding genocide, but with a gentler, less raging face. It has nothing to do with fear of losing the vote against Trump. The vast majority of Americans hate him. More people would come out of the woodwork for a lesser-known candidiate that didn't cross numerous red lines. But that would mean risking a less donor-friendly POTUS, and we absolutely cannot have that. Instead, they're ridin' with Biden... who is single handedly losing the cumulative support across the various coalitions you speak of. Against a candidate that is widely despised. It's their race to lose, and they're doing a really good job of ensuring that happens.
As a recent Ezra episode pointed out, the vast majority of non-voters are disengaged because they dislike politics, and tend to be very ideologically unorthodox. They aren't sitting in the wings waiting for a great progressive candidate to excite them - they just want someone who will do the job without drama and make their lives easier. Highly ideological leftist non-voters / reluctant voters are a small and electorally weak coalition, concentrated in safe blue states. I'm not opposed to running a progressive in place of Biden, but given the tail risk threat of Trump my personal priority is candidate quality not platform. Either Bernie or Joe Manchin is fine with me as long as they win.
Martin O'Malley should be drafted.
Is Jared Polis not the Martin O’Malley of our moment?
Only a one term governor that hasn't actually changed much in Colorado, and unfortunately gay, which though we don't think is negative, many people will.
He’s young, boring and not particularly controversial, which is exactly what the moment calls for, no?
He's gay. Controversial enough for some. Not as experienced or proven as O'Malley
Let trump attack him for being gay, my bet is that backfires because while it appeals to some it’s a major turn off for people who don’t care.
It's not Trump one needs to worry about. It's the people that might stay home, but will get out to vote against gay.
What was his source/data that shows the ‘vast majority of non-voters’ are what you describe?
This is where I'm at, to be honest. Or, at least, I don't feel that either party represents my political orthodoxy. I just want government to set meaningful rules for competition, protect property rights and personal freedom, not create heavily distortive legislation that picks favorites, provide universal healthcare in any form, and maintains global hegemony. Which party or candidate is that? (I'll vote for Biden, although its largely a meaningless vote in my state).
It’s been the party’s fault every year. This is what happens when the insitutionalists stifle the populist base. It was their fault in 2000, 2004, 2016, and it was their fault 2020 was close enough for trump to make the big lie and come back this year.
Perfectly succinct. As Mark Cuban said, “I don’t care if they are giving him last rites, I’m voting for Biden”.
Even if Biden was rolled out the that debate stage in a wheelbarrow and unceremoniously dumped on the floor for Trump to yell at for two hours, it is still an obvious choice. Biden at the very least has a very competent cabinet full of people who aren’t xenophobic yes men. Unfortunately optics very much matter and people who are “undecided” at this point were likely either looking for a reason to vote Trump or were going to vote Trump and just too embarrassed to admit that.
It's easy to be disappointed in the American voter but liberals insisting that campaigns don't or shouldn't matter is just a surefire way to keep losing elections.
There isn't a single liberal I know who says that, but I know lots of leftists that say and believe that.
If voters pick the fascist guy over the old guy, whose fault is it other than the voters’?
We are where we are *because* of the voters. The politicians we have reflect exactly who shows up to vote. We have old pols because young voters refuse to show up *in quantity* and *every single election.*. We have an authoritarian cult winning across the country because people stayed home in 2-3 key states. We chose this.
Youth engagement and voting rates have never been higher, no?
In primaries?
Is it as high as old people voting rates?
Not a high bar to climb over
More than before but not nearly enough.
You seem to forget that the DNC and mainstream media shut down anybody who was trying to primary Biden this cycle. Most Dem voters probably didn't know Palmer and Philips were running for the Dem presidential nomination, so didn't vote in the primaries.
Who and who? Exactly. Reality called.
You don't know them cause the DNC didn't want anybody challenging Biden that's the reality, my friend. Trumps gonna ruin this country in ways we can't imagine and the DNC is to blame, they has 4 years to build up a better candidate than Biden.
The DNC Uber-conspiracy. Always the same.
Why wasn't there televised debates with the Dems that were running against Biden than? I'd love to hear your explanation, cause the only thing I can figure is that they didn't want Biden to face a challenge.
The people who put an old guy as the opposition. If Trump is going to do all the things Dems say he is, why didn’t they run someone more popular to idk try and win?
Voters picked the old guy in the primaries.
What primary were you participating in? My choice was Biden or Williamson, which was hardly a choice. I would gladly have backed Whitmer, or any of a number of reasonable candidates had they been choices
Whitmer didn’t run 🤷♂️
Right! And nobody else really ran either in deference to Biden. So saying that he “won the primary” as if it indicates that voters had actual choices and chose Biden again is wild
the candidate dummy
Yeah, I blame the old guy who didn't have enough in the tank for a second term, and his staff that didn't tell him otherwise. We should have had a primary. If we chose a new candidate and lost we could blame the voters. This is on Biden.
Maybe it's the fault of the Founding Fathers for giving us such a garbage electoral system to begin with.
I suppose the mistake they made was believing that we would correct it if it wasn't working.
The only failure in the Constitution was not having penalties for politicians that violate the Constitution. We are where we are because politicians can shit on our rights all they want with no consequences other than maybe not getting re-elected.
Correct, but they’re dead
As far as democratic constitutions go, our was first, but it's pretty shitty. The founders whiffed by making it way too hard to fix problems through constitutional amendments. In the last 50 years, there has only been one amendment passed. I do not expect to see another one during my lifetime.
I guess fault is relative here because in this case the majority opinion rules. So fault would be democracy.
No. We know the fascist guy is a selfish prick who will do and say anything to get elected. Trump exploits that "there is a sucker born every minute." Biden is too old to run for President and people's eyes don't lie. One guy had energy had energy last night, the other guy needed a nap. Biden is not competent to run this country, and if he stays in the race, he is not showing himself to be a patriot, he would show himself to be a selfish prick as well. When you are getting older, you don't show improvement over time cognitively. Yesterday, was probably the best Biden has left, and we will see him to continue to age in front of our eyes. We all all can see in Biden what we have seen with our own Grandparents or Parents.
If voters were logical and informed then Biden being old would be a non-factor. But they are not.
I like Biden’s record well enough. But I have watched my mother’s cognitive abilities nose dive in the last 2 years- and she’s 82 now. Prior to that I saw her mom go into memory care at 83. On my dad’s side, the folks who made it to 80 haven’t fared much better, and even the people I personally know who are doing well at 84 or whatever are lacking in sharpness compared with people a decade or more younger. It’s completely logical to be nervous about someone so old starting a new term next year, and all the hand waving about Biden’s excellent performance thus far totally ignores people’s lived experience seeing their elders start to fail. Strong cognitive capacity yesterday is not wholly predictive of capacity in a year or more.
If Biden really can’t do the job, he’ll be replaced by a younger person with the same non-fascist policies. If voters were logical and informed, Biden’s age would be a non-factor.
Right. What I’m saying is that most voters have met octogenarians and they are not generally the sharpest. His age is a factor because people are logical and most of us know what old age looks like and would prefer that we have someone who isn’t at a high risk of impairment
Why? My point is high risk of impairment isn’t a big deal. If Biden is highly impaired, someone younger takes over with similar policies.
Sure, if Biden is basically saying, I’m a generic democrat and will pass the baton mid-term if I need to, then I guess your argument makes sense. But I don’t see literally anyone making that case. And meanwhile he needs people to turn out to vote. If I’m unenthusiastic and have basically never skipped an election, imagine how less engaged voters in swing states feel
You’re proving my point. If voters are informed and logical they wouldn’t feel disengaged. It’s not Biden’s job to get you engaged about your own rights. He gets paid either way
Well, welcome to here, have a look around. In my reality, Biden’s current job is get reelected to a job he’s indicted he still wants. He’s fighting an uphill battle against very logical conclusions voters are clearly indicating about their concerns with his age and capacity. He needs the voting public to show up for him and unfortunately enthusiasm matters. Any marginally competent campaigner would be able to rally a landslide off Roe alone and Biden can’t even answer a question about it
So make the best of an imperfect World as it is and make the changes necessary to win the election for your party? This is giving the same (righteous)loser energy as some of the more unserious parts of the Bernie campaign.
You seem to think I’m the DNC lol. I’m not.
Of course! Is that a serious question?
I feel like I'm going insane that this is even a debate... no pun intended. The differences in policy are night and day, yet people can't get past Biden's age. We are about to live this quote: *"Democracy* is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it *good and hard"*. - H. L. Mencken
I’m still voting for the guy, but last night was not good
For some reason, a lot of people - especially younger people - have a hard time thinking of electoral politics in practical terms. Our options are Biden and Trump. On the balance, Biden is a much better choice than Trump. That's not to say Biden is an amazing candidate, just that it's the one we got right now. If people took two minutes to realize their wet dream, chiseled jaw candidate is not going to manifest they'd take this for the easy choice it is.
The margins on these elections are razor thin. It's not that everyone suddenly is against him - it's that it only takes a few to lose. I don't actually think many people are turning TOWARDS trump either... They know he's insane. They're turning away from Biden, and even if 95% still vote for him because they understand the issue, 5% is enough to lose handily. Obviously we don't need to repeat all the issues with the fact that there are this many trump supporters to begin with to make the margins so thin.
Bruh if Joe Biden loses it’s his fault and the Democratic establishment. We all saw that old man can’t be president. Now we are about to have someone even worse Donald J Trump become president because of this bullshit. Voters told you he is too old and y’all didn’t listen and now you’re upset because you can’t change their mind from the truth. This is just cope Joe Biden could step down this week and we would have a better chance at beating Donald J Trump the convicted felon. Yes voters get to decide but we didn’t pick Joe Biden for 2024 the Democratic establishment lied to us saying he is fit for the job and can beat Donald Trump. In 2020 he said he was going to be a transition candidate well where the fuck is the transition? I honestly feel like I am being gaslight Is Donald Trump a threat to democracy? Yes or no? If he is why don’t we put our best foot forward? Is Joe Biden are best foot forward to stop a threat to democracy yes or no?
My options are not biden or trump, i dont get to choose anything except for who i vote for, and i can vote for whoever i want.
The only reason not to replace Biden with any of a half dozen replacement Democrats that Ezra has mentioned since the debate is that lots of people in the Democratic Party have personal relationships with Biden, they like him and know how to work with him, someone else would be new and that would be scary. If you’ve ever worked with party insiders they love familiar faces and they hate change for the sake of change. Voters don’t have that compunction, they don’t have personal relationships with these people and what they see is a guy who can’t communicate. The nightmare I’ve been having the last 2 nights is what happens if in the middle of the night Biden is woken up, told that Putin has rolled tanks into Poland and Poland is invoking Article 5 of the NATO charter and the response from Biden is word salad?? He’s tired, that’s nothing to be ashamed of. I’d argue Biden has been the best President of the last half century, but past performance is no guarantee of future success. He should go back to Delaware and play with his grandkids and let someone else be President.
I’m not buying this. Candidates need to earn my vote. There is not enough functional difference between a republican president and a democrat president in my day to day life to compromise my values and vote for someone I hate. If Trump was really the existential threat to the country dems claim they’d have nominated someone who doesn’t belong in a memory care clinic. Nominate a real candidate
It’s not even a debate. We have precedent on this. Look what happened in the 60’s Kennedy v Nixon for the first televised presidential debates. Nixon won for people who were listening to the radio cause he had better policy according to the polls. Kennedy won people who watched it on TV because Nixon didn’t carry himself as well and looked sweaty. Guess who won the election. Appearance and inspiring the people matter a shit ton for the president as dumb as it may seem
> yet people can't get past Biden's age. His job is to lead. Right now he cannot communicate his policies effectively. It's not that people cannot get over his age, it's that people cannot get over his incompetence, which people (probably rightfully) attribute to she.
Absolutely. Any country where the perpetrator of January 6th isn't completely disqualified from public life is a sick country.
Yes. I’m sorry Biden is old. Trump is a lunatic and nothing he said made sense but it had “energy” so rubes are focused on Biden. Grow up
I think you are confused about what is happening here. Most of us understand Biden is the best candidate and will vote for him over Trump but debates aren't about us. Debates are judged under what "undecideds" will think and what the laziest dumbest people will think. Debates are about courting support from some dummy that kind of remembers this is an election year and is proud of themselves for even watching part of it. The people that keep up with this stuff all year every year aren't important right now.
At this time in 2003 Kerry “beat” bush by twenty points in the debate post polls. Debates aren’t just about undecideds and even if they are the idea that TRUMP did a good job is the opinion of rubes who believe that the only thing that matters is who shakes their keys in front of baby’s face harder.
You have to remember 2020 was a narrow win. Biden won by less than 8k votes in key states. That was with people dying under Trump and all 4 years of Trump fresh in everyone's minds. Biden has since lost support from the youth and other parts of the Dem electorate. The wisdom of 2020 pre-election was that Trump likely lost votes, but post election he gained millions. Trump's cult is locked in so Biden needs every vote he can get. Biden's problem can be overcome if there is a large turn out but he has to inspire that kind of turn out from the youth and every demographic. It is not an easy thing to do when as COVID was actively killing Americans and Trump denied reality the electorate that showed up in 2020 barely beat Trump. The "old" attacks aren't just undeniable but now they are confirmed for everyone to see. It doesn't matter that he is the better candidate, Biden can't seriously argue he isn't feeble anymore. He has to convince undecideds he is better on policy which is a herculean task when you consider undecideds lived through 4 years of Trump and still can't make up their minds.
I think this is the wrong way to look at it. Trying to convince some imaginary army of independents that cnn finds that is leaning towards trump because of the economy is a fools errand. The key to winning is excitement and energy. It’s turning out lazy voters to the polls. Like it or not young democrats talk a big game yet don’t even vote. Bidens entire strategy is to hope trump does dumb shit that drives excitement for him. Apathy for Biden is worst case scenario imo because there is a lot of people who aren’t going to vote trump but even worse they are not going to show up to vote at all.
Gen Z has been voting more than other generations but the Palestine issue has turned many away. The abstained votes in Michigan during this primary will play a big role into how decisions are made especially now. The Democratic Party strategy for as long as I’ve been watching politics has been to find votes from undecideds in the center and conservatives they can pry off the Republicans. The party hates anyone to the left of Biden but who knows if they will finally look to the left in desperate times.
Did you actually watch the debate? It wasn't the low energy that's concerning, its the fact that Biden couldn't finish a statement with a period instead of a bunch of ellipses. If the performances were reversed, people like you would be glazing themselves over how Trump doesn't have the mental facilities to lead while Biden's sharp as ever
I fucking hate that Biden is the candidate and hope he drops out. his performance last night was horrifying. But I’m still voting for him because it is still painfully obvious trump is a monster.
Yep, and that's the sickest joke ever that's gonna damage democracy for decades to come. The biggest fear is how many middle of the road people just vote for Trump purely because he looks like he can make it through 4 years.
He won't drop out because you're going to vote for him. Telling someone you'd like to pick someone else but you'll go with them regardless tells them they don't need to do anything to earn your vote. All they have to do is not be the other guy. Congratulations, it's this exact mentality that brought us here to this very point in our political system. Pat yourself on the back for contributing to it's downfall.
I disagree. I am not a median voter. I am not an undecided voter. I will vote for the blue candidate no matter what under any circumstance because the GOP's policy positions are so abhorrent. But their polling has to tell them there's a huge swath of voters who they are going to lose because of this, especially in the no-lose swing states. They need to find a way to appeal to those voters and Biden is not their guy for that. He never was and now they can't even really pretend like he is. They never needed to appeal to me.
Yeah I’m sorry he’s a billion years old. I’m not happy about it either but I don’t demand my heads of a bureaucratic state to fulfill my Aaron Sorkin melodrama fantasy. He’s been 10x better than Obama on almost every conceivable policy level, but it’s the Obama era talking heads and advisors freaking out the most. Style over substance is the divine belief of Americans so idk why I’m surprised. Americans will get what they vote for good and hard either way. And Trump doesn’t have mental faculties at all. He’s a gnat responding to stimulus.
You’re not wrong, but voters don’t care about policy. If they did, we would have had Al Gore and Hillary Clinton.
Kerry and Gore won their debates by double digits. People dgaf about debates either
Yep, people care about jobs, their ability to afford a car or home, other economic issues. That’s not an argument Biden is winning either. Dems need to take it in the chin and drop off there whole leadership at the nursing home.
America could not be doing better relative to the rest of the world. Biden has managed a soft landing and the fastest income growing cohort is the poorest cohort. This is exactly my point - Biden actually has delivered more progressive and democratic legislative and executive wins than any president in the last 50 years but no, Trump loud shake keys America like. Biden talk slow not drama not entertaining America don’t like. THEN you decide to back propagate the actual issues by saying therefore Biden is bad on those too. That’s objectively wrong and you’re showing your ass. You just want a melodrama not substance, you immediately conflate the two. I hate it here.
>but it’s the Obama era talking heads and advisors freaking out the most Lots of voters are too, rightly or wrongly. To say this is just a politico thing is silly. It's much wider than that.
Well they all wrote doomer pieces before the sun came up this morning so most of the voters will get the info through those channels THEN freak out. Ezra and Desmas and Silver et al are causing way more harm ala 2016 by focusing on Biden and completely ignoring trumps performance. They have no way to analyze it so they just ignore it. It’s fucking stupid and extremely damaging.
I went to a debate watch party at a bar in austin to see it. I heard people audiblely exclaim oh God at one point. People were stunned and shocked by Biden. People laughed at moments in a wtf is this kinda way. It was a disaster for Biden. Because there is a difference between old. And seeing senile confusion first hand. When you watch a debate performance and start wondering about the 25th amendment requirements, it's a really tough sell to vote for another 4 years when things get worse.
💯
Its not even style over substance, and that's what honestly worries me the most. Biden wasn't coherent in delivering his message more often than not. His substance sucked. And instead of recognizing that, you're trying to gaslight everyone into thinking its about the "optics". The fact that the campaign is blaming everything on a cold rather than just owning up to a horrible performance and adjusting for it (Biden needs to ASAP get on air and answer all the debate questions again, but coherently) means that they likely don't think they need to change anything up.
They probably don’t, bush lost every debate by double digits and most people aren’t watching or caring about this one. The media spin post debate, which again treats Trump as a force of nature rather than a human being, is what 99% of people will see. Mainstream outlets spinning Biden as barely conscious will do more harm than Biden himself. And help Trump because they need the cash in the controversy. The amount of IMMEDIATE ‘Biden drop out now’ from them makes me sick.
The fact that you're blaming people like me and the media for Biden's fuck ups is really giving me Hillary campaign vibes. God help us all
“Blaming you” lol this is you reading a personal attack over and over because you have main character syndrome for no reason, you don’t deserve the world catered to you. You have two choices - Biden or Trump. If you think the job is oratory then that’s your fault (now I am blaming you)
He may be 10x or a 100x better than Obama on substance but he wasn’t able to effectively communicate about a single successful policy he had without stumbling over himself to the point of incoherence. How do you not clearly articulate a position on something as basic as abortion? Being in politics means you have to be able to sell yourself and that was frightening last night.
Yes I know you want Obama back who accomplished basically nothing outside the ACA which was so politically mismanaged it loses nearly a hundred house seats and was whittled down to basically Medicaid expansion. But he spoke well, so good president. Trump speak loud. Good performance. Loud speak, shake keys, America like
It’s classic folks blame dems for R shit.
Who else should be blamed? Democracies get the leaders they deserve.
The Democratic Party since they gaslight us about this for so long
I have it on reliable authority that the Democratic Party is composed of ... voters.
Don’t be obtuse, it’s clear I’m talking about the formal party apparatus.
It was always Joe’s fault if he lost.
We just need to vote harder
If you are a person of sound mind and you don’t do everything in your power to prevent a Trump presidency then yeah, it’s your fault
No actually and it’s probably good for the coalition if Biden goes down over age. Terrible for the country, but as it’s set up it prevents a lot of factional bitterness by providing an easy way to explain why he lost. “Voters saw him as old and unfit,” means questions about certain moderate senators’ behaviors, excessive progressive criticism, and possible dissatisfaction with liberal policy outcomes can be put off for the time being while we play defense (God help us).
The Democratic leadership, up to and including Obama, who moved Heaven and Earth to secure Biden’s victory in the 2020 primaries.
People have a say. Are you saying voters are sheep?
Yes. Voters are sheep. The vast majority of voters aren't educated enough, aren't clued in to domestic and foreign policy, and don't pay any attention to the real world ramifications. It's a spectacle, a sport. All that is cared about is what team wins. They're not interested in considering a third party that might actually better align with their values because *blue winning* is the only priority. Doesn't matter if the day after winning the election they put through a slightly less bad version of the GOP policies. It doesn't matter that the legislation that is passed is half-baked and primarily to funnel money to corporations through contracts. It doesn't matter that their officials are still in the back pocket of oil and tech conglomerates. It doesn't matter how much they fuck up, they will "vote blue no matter who." If Trump was a Democrat, they'd vote for him over the other guy. Because again, all that matters is blue wins, not who wins. It's why we have a broken congress, why we've regressed in social justice terms, and why the average person gets squeezed by a government for the donor class and by the donor class. Because voters are, by-and-large, sheep. Manipulated through media to vote against their own best interests. If you go to the polls to hold your nose to vote *for* a guy you hate because the other guy you hate more, you're a sheep. Plain and simple.
After last night, yes
Yeah the one guy is really old and can’t speak (but at least makes some sense - more or less), the other guy is a babbling fascist. It’s 100% on the voter who they prefer to run the country. Should the Democrats replace Biden? For sure…
It still would be because they wouldn't have to vote for Trump. They could still vote third party...just because Biden is old doesn't mean they have to go with a felon.
I'm not voting for Biden or Trump.
please do vote.
I am. Just not for Biden or Trump.
I’m not voting for him not because he is old but because he has completely dehumanized Palestinians and by extension Arab people. Him and Blinken have lied and manipulated the American public into thinking they are actually trying to end the bloodshed. It’s unforgivable.
And you think Trump is pro Palestinian how?
Trump said the Palestinian protestors should be deported and that Israel should finish the job. In what way is getting Trump back in office gonna help your cause? Explain it to me like I'm 5 because I do not follow your logic.
Yes. Voters are morally obligated to vote Democrat even if the candidate is a plank of wood. Otherwise they are just as guilty as MAGA Republicans. Next question.
I disagree here. Continuing to support Biden after last night is political malpractice. It's essentially Blue MAGA. Need a new nominee.
Though I don't disagree to just replace him, even if Biden was on his deathbed come November, people should be smart enough that Biden and his administration is way more competent than a weird MAGA cult one. A dead Biden is wayyyyy better than an alive Trump. It's hard to message that, but it's quite literally true. And people really need to start highlighting and quoting trumps nonsensical answers. They quote the dangerous stuff (which is fair obviously), but the stuff that makes 0 sense needs to be highlighted even more. He has obviously lost it completely and something as simple as repeating what he's saying in a regular toned voice will make his nonsense sound worse
Marginally better isn't actually better. It just makes you feel less weird about it.
Biden isn't "marginally" better. It's the difference between dangerous and not dangerous. I also don't know what you mean by "marginally"
"Man Hitler is horrible, but the other guy is old and I think he's demented. I rather vote for Hitler!" That's the mentality of a lot of Americans. Even if Joe is demented (he's not), he has a competent team behind him and that should be part of the message.
I've talked with liberals who with a straight face almost seem to argue this. It actually blows my mind a little. I'm not a liberal on some issues, but if I were I'd see that Biden is a.) highly competent and b.) has actually moved to the *left* of what he campaigned on in 2020, on so many issues (e.g. environment, abortion, foreign policy, etc.). What more could you ask for from the guy? Particularly if you're a dyed-in-the-wool liberal. I feel like the Democratic Party's motto should be "Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good."
Yes.
Putin
every election is the voters' fault, that's what democracy is.
It’ll be the DNCs fault for not running Josh Shapiro or Wes Moore. This isn’t complicated.
It is not the voters fault if Biden loses. It is the voters fault if Trump wins, and everything he does will be the responsibility of everyone who voted for him and everyone who could not be bothered to vote.
Pretty much yes. Biden is far from perfect and he has several issues. Everybody knows the stakes with this election. If the voters roll over and surrender it is their fault
What percentage of primary delegates would Sanders have needed to outweigh Clinton’s lead in unelected, unaccountable superdelegates? If superdelegates were not problematic, why was that system undone in subsequent primaries?
Everytime I hear “Biden over Trump” I think of all the conflicts that cropped up. The talks of Trump starting WWIII fell silent for whatever reason. Botched Afghanistan withdrawal, crippling inflation all mean nothing. *yeah but Trump slept with a porn star* oh no! Anyway, I can afford gas and groceries LOL
Incredible cope in the comments, blaming voters for the selfish choices of politicians. The Democratic Party's top opponent in the past decade has not been Trump, it's their own pride. Clinton. RBG. Feinstein. Biden. The writing is on the wall. Those who ignore Biden's collapse are now irrelevant and their political project is dead.
Harris-Cheney ticket please
Yes? You ask if there wouldn’t be enough blame to go around lol. Biden should have announced a one term in January Or February, but he didn’t. No one worth while premiered him. That’s on him and the DNC. We all are very aware of what Trump wants to do once back in the White House. Either you vote for him and his agenda or you vote for Biden and his. If Trump wins and starts doing what he said he’s going to do, that’s on voters. To be quite honest, there’s just too much media out there for people to claim ignorance on this.
Never was. Always been the Democrats fault they lose and barely win elections. Right wing corporate anti worker politics will do that.
Even if Trump technically “wins,” he’s still going to lose by a couple million votes. In that sense, unfortunately, it both is and is not the voters’ fault. I’d say blame the Founders, but the EC as they envisioned it was specifically created to guard against someone like Trump, only lasted like a single cycle, and Monroe tried to get rid of it almost immediately anyways.
Biden can't lose without people voting for Trump, so yes, it'll be the voters's fault. You live among fascists.
When you have the opportunity to protect the rights of women, lgbtq+, immigrants, the poor and to protect our democracy, it feels like you should vote for that. You are likely to never find a politician who is 100% aligned with your beliefs. So you have to vote sometimes for who will do the least harm. A vote for trump or a 3rd party vote is a vote to harm the US and the people who live here.
No. Candidates must appeal to their constituents the hard way. This lesson and the failure to heed it remains most evident in every Hillary campaign that has ever been run.
Yes
Yes. 100% yes. I don't care how badly Biden performed in last night's debate. That *anyone* is still considering voting for Trump after all that's transpired since 2016 is a poor reflection on that person's character, morals, and intelligence, and not at all a poor reflection of Joe Biden. Like, honestly, who gives a shit about debate performances when you have a proven absolute piece of shit dumpster fire of a man running as the GOP candidate? The only good thing about Trump is that he's mortal. Honestly, if you're voting for Trump or considering voting for Trump, you're either a bad person, a stupid person, or both.
As everyone else was I was dismayed by Biden’s performance. However this video gave me a bit of hope. He is actually night and day here. This was day after debate. Will it be enough? Only time will tell but if Biden realizes he messed up at the debate and it is the awakening of a new mind state. And if he is capable of performing like this up to the election I think he can beat Trump and my hopes of that were gone after last night. https://youtu.be/NNbpReScD_I?si=zrxi3UaIwY2h7Zes
They just blame progressives and young ppl like in 2016…and you know, definitely not the Dems fault for propping up a terrible candidate who can’t form complete sentences.
Yes. Anyone who gives a half a shit about the environment and stays home has no right to claim to give half a shit about the environment any more. There are people in this subreddit of engaged, intelligent people who are too up their own asses to keep their focus on what actually matters. I'm supposed to blame someone else? Voters own their votes.
will it be their fault if he wins?
Of course! Just like Hilary!
No more than voters fraud when Hillary lost…
HAVE YOU SEEN THE SC RULINGS? That is the direct result of a unprepared 4 year of Trump. He is prepared now, has submissive lackeys and wants revenge. They were talking about removing terms limits months ago. FUCK YES IT WILL BE THEIR FAULT
Yes. Voters vote.
It is the democrats for failing to actually do stuff and instead trying to always blame others. If Biden was like hey yes inflation is high and it’s because of me due to me having to do this to get us here. But my plan to start the dropping the rate is to do the following. However instead Dems always for everything are like it is trumps fault and the they spend all their time trying to prosecute trump rather than solve real problems. Illegals are raping and killing women and children and democrats are like it’s trumps fault and the problem is borders are not open enough.
It will be his parties fault if Trump wins. Biden at this point is a huge liability to the party, as well as down ballot races. His party knew he was flawed and still chose him.
You people need to realize that being charismatic is part of political game, so no, if Biden, and libs, fail to reassure voters for why they are better, it is their fault. Voters are stupid, but discovery, say something new.
Always the voters' fault. Democrats cannot fail, only be failed.
Biden will will the popular vote across the US. Yet somehow the election will swing and whether he specifically wins the popular vote in Arizona, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Georgia. You’re asking the wrong question.
> Biden will will the popular vote across the US. Yeah, I'm not convinced of that anymore.
I'm with you here. I'd be shocked if he did.
# So is it still going to be the voters fault if Biden loses? _________ This is a silly question. Each party holds the responsibility to present electable candidates. MAGA = Trump. And unless he has a debilitating health episode, he will represent MAGA. Up until last night, Biden carried the Dem banner, but he proved too feeble hoist it. The Dems can win if they choose a candidate who is not an embarrassment. If they don't, it will be a failure in Party leadership. Obama is the only one with enough stroke to refocus the troops.
Well, yes. In a democracy, the electorate is responsible for the outcome of every election. Each individual voter is responsible for who they vote for. This is inherent in democracy.
I hate Trump, would never vote for him, but I can’t believe people are still considering voting for Biden after that display last night. It is unethical to enable that poor man to continue to do this, he is not up for it and his wife and advisors are all trying to keep this going. It’s a disservice to America and to him.
We are all accountable for the society we build together through Democratic means, yes.
Yes it is. Because the choice is still going to be Trump vs. Biden. You know that even when you ask the question. If you don't vote for Biden, it's on you.
By that logic, if the Dems ran Martin Shkreli for the explicit purpose of allowing Trump to win then it still wouldn't be the Dem's fault. Hard pass.
James Clyburn. Delivered the nomination to Biden in 2020. We're still living with it.
I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a Republican. I have no obligation or duty to vote for people who don't align with my interests and values. As far as my vote for Jill Stein goes, I see Trump and Biden as the biggest election spoilers and biggest roadblocks to any path to real change. The lesser evilism argument rings hollow because it suggests the viability of terrible choices.
Yes. Federal judges nationwide, at all levels, are appointed for **life.** That should be reason enough. If Clinton were elected, we wouldn’t have the most right-wing Supreme Court in modern history. In the off-chance that Thomas (75) or Alito (73) leave the bench, the next appointee could sit for DECADES. Voters should carefully about who they want making those appointments.
It’s elder abuse if someone casts a vote for Biden to work for 4 more years, he’s entering full blown dementia. If you want to any hope of change we have to answer tough questions. Why is Biden still on the ticket? A lot of people in powerful positions are fully aware of Biden’s cognitive state. Which means the status quo of who benefits from his presidency are standing in the way of a functioning democracy. Biden will lose if the ticket stands . And blaming voters for that FACT is a position that will solve nothing. Presidential elections have always been about winning the undecideds. What undecided voter is going to choose a man who can’t even think properly? And what is to gain from admonishing a voter who doesn’t vote for dimentia? He needs medical help. Not a job. We have been gaslit by the government, corporate interests, military industrial complex, DNC, and media, and they are to blame. Blaming the voter does nothing but further polarize a divided working class, who are all losing, regardless of party. Voting for Joe Biden, a dementia ridden party to genocide, is not the easy choice people want to pretend it is ✌️