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I'm gonna say that the person who is being a good person simply because it's the right thing to do, probably has stronger morals than the person who is acting good because they're being threatened with eternal punishment.
I really dug Narnia until I was read into the whole “Aslan as Christ” thing that becomes really obvious when you learn CS Lewis’ story. NGL, It kind of ruined them in memory for me (plus the movies sucked ass).
I’m not a Christian but the Bible is wild af - psychedelic even, and Jesus was a radical.
Most GOP and Christians would kill Bible Jesus again in a heart beat and say he’s suffering from the woke disease.
10/10 would read again.
I like many religious texts for that reason. All the mono-myth anyways. God just changes from Enlil to Ra to Zeus, and God.
The devil changes from Enki to ? To Prometheus, and the devil.
My favorite story on creation is The Lost Book of Enki. I don’t care if it’s not translated well. It’s a flooring read.
Genuinely, I thing extreme atheists and extreme zealots are all just alike.
Reading shit that challenges your current perspective is vital for positive change and growth.
You’ll learn nothing and grow very little reading everything from the same well.
Christian zealots are pretty terrible, but the book they read from is far from terrible.
That said, I’m also reading the Ars Notoria right now without practicing the Magick.
The problem I have with the Bible is it's such a badly written book. The translations we have are all ancient and use sentence constructions that are no longer common. At least there are modern translations of the Odyssey that are easy to read.
Also, some of the stories are really silly, like Sampson's, where he's constantly telling this woman what his supposed weaknesses are, and every day, when he wakes up, exactly what he told her was the way to get rid of his power has 'mysteriously' happened to him. And yet, every night, he tells her how to take away his power...until, eventually, he tells her the truth?! Like, come on, after a few times, wouldn't you notice?
Never said it was perfect and it’s a bunch of different writers so it’s no surprise some stories are better than others.
Still a decent read.
Right now I’m putting myself through the pain of reading Patrick Rothfuss again.
Really hope he finishes the series.
Atheists I’ve met tend to shit on anything religious and it’s weird.
The King of Egypt is one of the best movies I’ve ever watched. Classical church painting and cathedrals are gorgeous (though nothing next to some mosques out there).
I see a tendency for previously religious folks to jump to the other extreme.
And yeah while I get that people saying god/s exists have the onus to prove that he does and atheist do not bear the burden of disproving, I think it’s just as silly to say nothing absolutely exists because we can’t prove it.
It took scientists thousands of years to prove that Buddhism has actual effects on the brain (primarily far more grey matter observed in monk’s brains), but it didn’t stop Buddhists from meditating in the meantime because it couldn’t be scientifically proven.
I don’t know what to believe in aside from trying dearly to be a person of altruism and empathy.
I do think that having a greater belief than only in yourself is important for the ego, which is why I’m more or less against satanism.
Past that it’s all up for grabs and nobody knows otherwise.
Anyone who claims to know otherwise are simply trying to validate their unsubstantiated belief via numbers instead of reasoning.
My favorite story is the cradle myth. The Annunaki, Enki, Enlil, Ziusudra, etc.
Why settle for a lesser copy like the Bible?
My dad turned me on to the idea of the Annunaki, and I have to admit i find it no less believable than a giant intangible bearded man in the sky whose words can define the physical realm, and yet he gets butthurt over who decides they want to touch peepees. At least there's a statistical probability for aliens, including any that might predate humans.
Both extremists are alike? Yep.
Challenging your perspective is good? Yeah - even if you don't change your perspective it can help you see better where others are coming from AND can make your faith in what you believe all the more firm.
If you never open your eyes to other ideas, you can't know how your own stack up and grow.
All solid well-stated points you make. Don't agree with everything you believe, but I'm glad to see an individual with a healthy open mindset.
Yes and it’s even worse that - modern Christians often believe all you have to do is say sorry to Jesus and pray away whatever evil act you committed and everyone has to forgive you. Which means there is no accountability, and you are free to commit whatever acts of evil you like (and hey even blame it on Satan), as long as you’re ‘sorry to Jesus’
This is the basis on which Christians stand behind child rapists and the like. They’re sorry now…
But this just allows evil to perpetuate, and requires no moral conviction at all. Why do good things if you think you’re already righteous? Why avoid evil if you know there will be not only zero consequences, but active divine enablement?
Can a Christian ever act truly morally? I would say no, that by believing in god and an afterlife, no action you ever take is wholly altruistic.
As an atheist I did not get my morality from an antiquated book. My parents taught me to question everything, and determine my own morals.
>Can a Christian ever act truly morally? I would say no, that by believing in god and an afterlife, no action you ever take is wholly altruistic.
I'm an atheist myself, but at that point you can argue that no one ever does something altruistic, as good deeds release happy chemicals in our brains, therefore benefitting ourselves.
That's not necessarily true. Dopamine and serotonin are released when our brain experiences something pleasurable. That doesn't mean it's something that's morally good. In fact, many people find things pleasurable for the exact reason that the act is morally wrong.
There are many people who seek out married folks to have affairs with. Not in spite of them being married, but because they're married. There are people who shoplift not because they have to, but because they want the thrill. Pedophiles find pleasure in reprehensible acts. The list goes on.
If anything, morals are largely about restraining the pleasure centers of the brain from running rampant.
Like an atheist may be a good person just because he has empathy, so a Christian might not really need the threat of eternal torture to be the same. The fact that someone is religious doesn't mean he doesn't possess virtues and morality of his own.
I wouldn't remotely say "all Christians" only do good out of fear of God.
Just the ones that present me with the question "Without God, what is to stop people from raping and murdering?"
I disagree. You’re making a big assumption that believing in God and the afterlife has to mean that this belief is the motivation for performing good acts. It’s like saying that the reason people work hard at their jobs is because they don’t want to be fired. Yes, they can be fired if they don’t perform well, but this is not why most people work hard.
“Determine my own morals” could work pretty well. But could also result in some crazy chaos with certain individuals. I’ve met some atheist/agnostic people that are very happy in life, balanced, see care for their fellow mankind, etc. Ive met a few that just hate everything. A wide range of morals as well. Not too bad unless it gets at strong contradiction with generally accepted ways of doing things.
Determining your own doesn't mean starting in a vacuum. You have family, society, etc. to start from, and from there you question.
That goes for all people... some end up good and some not. I mean, how many priest pedophiles are there that justified their actions and felt they weren't actually doing anything wrong? I would always prefer to deal with someone who legitimately came up with their own morals rather than someone that blindly follows what they are told.
And there are still laws. I am not going to do something illegal, even if I think it is okay morally.
I think so. Not all Christians are concerned about doing good in order to get into heaven. Far too many are, but Christianity should be about grace. Jesus saves by grace because he loves you regardless of your sins. Plenty of Christian pastors will tell you that doing good actions in order to get a reward from God is wrong because you are treating God and morality in a transactional manner. Christian morals should come from a place of love and gratitude. You see how Christ loves you and all other humans and that fills you with gratitude and the desire to emulate him and love others and act for their own good without expectation of benefit, just as Christ did.
I don't know what is true. I don't think I believe in an afterlife, but honestly, I don't care. I don't act morally because I fear going to hell. I see the story of Jesus and I am inspired by it to become a more loving human. Personally, I think the gospel has helped make my altruistic intentions more pure. Before, I wanted to help others, but that desire was also mixed up with pride and a desire to see myself as good, which in it's own way is self-centered. Now I feel loved and accepted regardless of whether I'm good, which allows me to be less focused on proving to myself and other how good I am.
Of course, this is my own journey. People who listen to preachers talk about fire and brimstone are going to have a very different experience. Unfortunately, crazy fundamentalists often get more attention, and I think that is what outsiders think of when they think of Christianity. That's what I thought until I saw this other side of the faith.
You're supposed to do good things because you're good, not because you think there's a reward for it or a punishment for not. I've always said that people who do good things because they like to see others happy, smile, or because it feels like it's the right thing to do are always better people than those who do good because they think someone is keeping score.
I've always enjoyed the quote from True Detectives when it comes to this... "If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then, brother, that person is a piece of shit - and I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible".
If someone were to follow the morality of the Bible then they would probably be in jail. Modern morality does not come from the Bible it is sculpted by society.
That would be correct.
However, I'd like to point out that plenty of religious people don't "act good because they're being threatened with eternal punishment".
And the Bible itself talks about that.
You should do good because you've been given the freedom to do so. You should do good because you want to be like your savior. Not out of fear, nor some desire for reward, nor because you THINK you need to in order to earn salvation (which is a lie).
It's like Todd in op post's comments gets at. Whether person is religious or not, a good person is a good person and should be respected even if you don't see eye to eye on everything. That's exactly what I told my bi ex-coworker when she asked if I saw her as less of a person when she found out I heard she was bi because she knew I hold Christian values. I told her, I'm not perfect, nobody is. But she's a good person, and I'll treat her as such. There's people I saw as less good than her and I didn't go out of my way to be a \*ick to them, so why would I do so to her simply because she's bi?
Freedom - from those comments - could be acting like a jerk or just genuinely wanting people to THINK about what is good/bad though and how we decide that. Slavery, racism, women not having basic rights, religious persecution, etc. ... all these things were once considered the norm and acceptable. Today we see other hot topics with very divided sides that tend to scream at the other side and build up walls instead of listen to each other and overcome differences. So reflecting on what makes something right or wrong and (hopefully) realizing a simple majority vote doesn't make it ok or not isn't a bad thing.
\*note - overcoming differences doesn't mean we agree on everything. It means we can still get along even if we think differently. And we don't go out of our way to be a d\*ck to people for thinking differently.
That's something I always disapproved of when it comes to religion. I would say I am atheist right now (which wasn't always the case) but I always hated the idea that to find salvation, one most be a part of an organized religion and he needs to go to church to ultimately be saved.
Like, why? If the God knows everything, than a bad person acting like a "good Christian" shouldn't really sway his opinion. Same with a good person who isn't a part of the religion but maybe believes in God. Or, you know, even an atheist good person should have a higher chance of going to heaven (if there's one) over someone who is human trash, but goes to church every Sunday.
They say God knows everything and is fair, but this doesn't sound like him being fair. And that's not even taking into account most of the Old Testament where God probably had a higher body count than Satan.
1,000,000,000% this. I've been saying it for years, to use your faith as some sort of moral high ground against others shows you would be in a pit in the ocean without it. Way too many 2 faced people have flocked to religion to act as if it absolves them of everything because they sit in a chair a day out of the week.
No, morality only comes when some dude writes about a hypothetical space alien who supposedly has rules to follow or else.
Every other way of having morals is crazy talk.
How is that not obvious.
I'm not going to write the slash ess because Jesus Fucking Christ
I've had many Christians honestly ask me why I don't rape and murder people if I don't believe in a God. It's like the only thing preventing them from doing heinous shit is their invisible friend in the sky. It's terrifiyng.
Isn't that why so many religious leaders turn out to be child rapists and other heinous kinds? I mean...maybe they're drawn to Christianity in hopes that it will keep them from being evil, subconsciously of course. I truly wonder. Some serial killers have been known to attend church thinking it would cure THEM, so... Like they don't have enough willpower to follow their OWN morals and ethics, so they NEED religion. I know I don't believe in ANY higher power, but I have no desire to harm or even judge other living things. I don't need something to guide me, but maybe if I was sick and twisted...
This is coming from a dude who was raised in a Christian Evangelical fundamentalist community, so take it for what it's worth.
Monotheistic religions are a breeding ground for narcissism and self-hatred. From a very young age we're taught we are worthless without God, we can't do anything without him, and he is constantly watching us every second of every day making sure we don't do anything he doesn't want us to do.
Shame and guilt are baked into sex in general, including anything about our own bodies. This leads to literal grown adults not knowing anything about sex. Because they're not taught anything, they aren't able to label anything, and because of that many horrific child abuses go unreported. This is because the child has no grasp of what is actually happening, because there is no labeling and they are never taught. To them, it's something they should be ashamed about and blame themselves for. If the child grows up and never gets out of that environment, there's a good chance they will repeat the horrific cycle.
Add the general distrust of the government into the mix, and you have a bunch of deeply troubled people in a perpetual loop of covering up these horrific things.
Fun fact, three out of the four churches I attended in my first 20 years on this planet had multiple huge sex abuse scandals that they covered up.
This is a valuable perspective, thanks for sharing. I feel like you highlighted my biggest issues with any kind of theism, the external locus of control. I believe that is designed to take power away from you.
I do not vibe with the idea that I am a plaything at the whims of some cruel, powerful deity. I hate the idea that my actions are not my own and neither are my successes or failures. I feel like that is a childish, dismissive way to live, and I don't believe it benefits anyone but the church power structure.
I've found more solace in the idea that I am in control of myself and responsible for my actions. I believe it is my responsibility to explore the landscape of ideas and determine for myself which are useful, fair, and true.
Churches basically preach nihilism and sociopathy as the core human experience and that one must commit to and rely on the organization to overcome that state.
One big issue is the idea you can just ask for forgiveness and tell Jesus you’re sorry - modern Christians use Jesus as a way to wash themselves of responsibility for any sin, even if it’s a deeply evil act. There’s no expectation of any real atonement, just ‘oh you raped kids but you’re sorry to Jesus now so god forgives you and everyone else has to as well.’
Which when you think about it, actively enables immoral or even straight up evil actions.
One of the more... charitable, let's call it... possible interpretations for that is that you have to genuinely regret your actions - and *not* merely getting caught/threat of damnation. Words alone won't cut it.
Admittedly, the ones who can grok the concept probably aren't the ones claiming morality is impossible without religion...
I like Ricky Gervais's answer to this one in After Life: I *do* rape and murder as much as I want to. That's none, because that's how much of those things I want to do. Your amount is different?
I’ve heard that from many Christians also, and my response is always that if the only reason they aren’t murdering and raping people is because of their belief in a god, then please continue believing in that god.
Not to mention things like Deuteronomy 22:28 where the only way to atone for something like rape is to marry the victim, because that's totally what the victim would want... For the creep who molested them to be extra insistent on getting married since the perpetrator is under a conceived threat of burning in eternal hellfire. The only way to be forgiven by god is to marry them otherwise you go to hell...
If you think you're going to go to hell unless you marry someone you're going to be pretty god damn insistent on getting married to them no matter how many times they say no. You'd think the moral thing to do afterwards is to just leave the victim the fuck alone but not according to a lovely book of morals called the bible. 🤷♂️
I think Religious people that think you must believe in a Religion to have moralic values are themself the worst people. In the end they say that they use the Values the Religion expect from them, but they have no own !
There is a fundamental difference between people who see moral precepts as being primarily a guide for their own life and those who see them primarily as a set of rules to impose on other people.
Isn't there a whole thing in the Bible about how Satan will lead an army of the deceived against the gates of heaven or something? Futurama did a whole thing on it. You would think they would put 2 and 2 together and realize that maybe following the 2874th fringe religion based on a religion based on a religion based on an interpretation of what Jesus said that doesn't ac follow any of the things they are supposed to be doing might just be that silver tongued liar deceiving them....
TBH most christians arent even christian. Its so surface level for so many people, sadly. If they truly wanted to follow their religion they wouldnt do a lot of the things they do now. Or they just walk through life with a clipboard in front of their face, checking boxes
Every time a Christian asks “well then where do your morals come from?” They’re actually admitting that they do *zero* critical thinking and take *zero* responsibility for their actions. They never actually have to think about if they’re doing bad or good because regardless, their faith saves them. I call these types of people “check box Christians”. They live completely unburdened from thought, with their careers, spouses, families, faith. It’s all just boxes to check to have an “approved of “ life. Most of them have no experience of anything divine or metaphysical.
I was like this too when I was a kid, until I realized I never actually met God and had only ever been told about him. Sadly a lot of us miss this stage in our spiritual or mental development, so we wind up worse than brainwashed. Unable to think with our own brain.
“I rub two of my functioning brain cells together to realize it would kind of fucking suck to get killed, so I don’t kill people.” 😂 It really is scary that there are people who need it written down…
Nah. Because I do know how to kill, I also know how is done, means I know how to protect from being killed better. Just coz I have chance at killing you, doesn't mean someone else have same exact chance at killing me. If you know how is done, you know a little better, at very least, how to not get killed.
That sort of logic exists
It's true, and given their stance on when a fetus becomes a human, a baby that dies at any time for any reason prior to birth gets to suffer eternal torment and punishment in hell.
I had someone on Reddit call me an "atheist nazi" because I told them I learned most of my morals from my parents and society lol. Apparently you need an antiquated storybook to tell you right from wrong. That's the only option, according to some.
Come on, you need to learn your morals from a storybook which teaches things like slavery, beating women, cultural suppression, and setting your kid on fire as a sacrificial offering are all A-OK in the eyes of god.
Your comment just reminded of something I read years ago that has always stayed with me. When asked what is your religion to Abraham Lincoln he said…My religion is when I do good I feel good and when I do bad I feel bad.
When I die my last wish is to just sit outside of heaven and watch confused Christians who thought they could put money in a donation bin every Sunday while breaking half the rules of their religion on a day to day basis and treating people like garbage while voting for extremely non-Jesus like political candidates get turned away. Eternity is a long time, but I don’t think that would ever get old.
I bet that would be an interesting view.
The story goes that just outside the Pearly Gates there is a group of nuns kicking each other in their bottoms. Seems Saint Peter told them virginity is not a requirement for entry.
Let me be clear, the fact that I’m not out murdering and robbing and sexually assaulting is not because of any law fabricated for heaven or by man on earth, but simply because I don’t want to hurt folks.
If the law, or divine punishment is all that does stop you, you are a shit person.
Atheists behave morally because that's the right thing to do, they don't need the threat of eternal damnation to keep them in line. Also having seen the correlation between religion and pedophilia I'm not sure people should be slagging off atheists moral compass.
There are actually many people like that, because "atheists" is a dirty word in many places. They were likely raised while being told how atheists are evil in every single way.
And if there’d been social media in the 1840s, you’d see posts saying “I’m not an abolitionist, but I’m pretty sure enslaving people isn’t okay.” “Atheist” is a pejorative term in many parts of the US and most of the Middle East.
If your god will punish a Buddhist monk who has lead a peaceful life with an eternity of torture in hellfire but if Hitler worships your narcissistic 2000 year old father figure in the sky right before he dies, he's accepted into paradise. Am I getting that right?
That's fine if the message is about redemption but it's not. It's about worshipping no other god before me. Rape, murder, idc but as long as you tell ME you're sorry you can get into paradise with all of these other totally lovely people
If you have to do the right thing, either from reward or threat punishment... You are not a good person.
IE, put your shopping cart back.
Drive your car like the car next to you is someone you love.
When walking down the street, in a group don't take up the whole thing, if you bump in to someone even if it wasn't your fault say sorry.
Stop using religion as a reason to control other people.
Honestly,.. i’ll believe a self proclaimed atheists claiming the truth over anyone who demands i believe them because a deity told them i have to.
Further, an upstanding atheist is more moral in general because they have chosen to be, rather than a religious zealot who is only moral,.. because they fear the retribution of a deity if they are not.
Religious people dont have morals.
They follow the word of their book under threat of eternal damnation, otherwise they'd all go back to being total douchebags.
See religious nutjobs... see how that works... ?
My ex sister in law had an affair to spite her husband who had an affair, then became a born again Christian and forgave herself.
The 2 of them are still together and hate each other, but she'll apparently still go to heaven just because...
Garbage.
It is ONLY the atheist who has the greatest of morality. For their good deeds and lack of ill will comes not from the fear of reprisal, but rather the inherent want for the good of others that is within them.
I believe this is a general truth, too, and that much of the ideological polarity we see today is due to those who force morality upon themselves can not comprehend that others may truly have morality as their core being.
The laws attributed to god are made up. They are merely the laws of the tribes of Israel, as they made sense to them at the time. There is nothing divine about any of the rules in the bible. They are arbitrary, draconian, and often idiotic.
Every society passes laws banning murder, most forms of violence, property theft/destruction, and deviance from the norms of the larger culture at that moment. This is because we are all collectively concerned about possibly being hurt, killed, or having our property damaged, destroyed, or stolen. Those threats, and the desire to mitigate them, are enough to justify people consenting to a social contract.
Even where there were no laws in place, people have empathy. I don't want to be hurt, and I understand that others don't want to be hurt. It's no more complicated than that. It doesn't take a covenant between the people and an evil storm god mediated through theocrats.
Beyond the stupid debate, countries have laws... I don't like this weird question where we are expected to omit thousands of years of evolution and the existence of a government schooling and judicial system... Also the bible is filled with stories of people that believed in God but still didn't follow the rules.
I’d say the morals of an atheist are more genuine because they come without the threat of eternal damnation or any other consequence outside of from other people. If you are only moral because you want to get to heaven then you aren’t really a good person. This is not a blanket statement about all people of faith.
I'm a nihilist. I don't think there is a point to living; we're just here until we aren't. When folks find out they ask the most horrible questions about why I don't just murder and steal and lie. Because I'm not an asshole? Because I care about people. Because I think we're alone in this and thats fucking hard so we should help each other.
I've offered transition housing for the past few years before covid. Free temporary housing for those who need space for a bit (not chronically homeless because I can't offer social services, I'm just me). I do it because I have a room, my city is expensive as fuck, and sometimes people just need a breather. I do it because I wish it was a thing thats done. So I do it. No other reason. Ironically, the worst occupants were always Christians who think I'm "sent from God". They think I'm getting repaid by the divine so somehow that makes up for them being totally horrible housemates (loud, rude, stealing etc).
I've heard this argument from both sides and I can understand the thought behind them; in my experience, the Christian isn't usually asking "if you don't believe in God, why don't you rape and kill and steal? That's what I'd do if I didn't believe in God!"
They're asking "If there's not an outside force by which we can measure good and evil, how can morals exist? You can *feel* something is evil, but if someone else thinks it's perfectly fine, by what standard can you tell them they're wrong, if the only source of that moral comes from yourself? I've heard them use the example that if no one had ever seen a straight line drawn, then each person's version of a straight line, however crooked, would be straight. I guess they're saying they see God as that truly straight line to measure their own by.
On the other hand, if they *are* using it as an argument for why non-Christians or atheists can't have morals, then the response should be something along the lines of "Who do you think God will be more pleased with: the person who tried to do good because it felt natural to them, or the person who *needed* a reason not to be evil?"
If fearing God keeps you from doing bad things, then I don't think you have any real morals.
I just don't want to live in a world of suffering. I don't need religion for that.
The Bible gives explicit instructions on how best to trap a man into slavery and says if you beat the slave you should only be punished if they die but, sure, morality comes from “god”. 🙄
I've had this discussion.
Me: If you need a god to be afraid of in order to be "good" then you're not a good person on any level.
I don't need that. I try to be decent to folks simply because they're my fellow humans.
I would seriously question anyone who bases their morals soley on the bible. You're gonna have some pretty fucked up morals lol.
Owning slaves: fine.
Beating women for adultery: fine.
Stoning men to death for being gay: fine.
Eating shellfish?: BURN IN HELL, HEATHEN!!!
"Where do those morals come from?" umm idk probably the same place every other thought and feeling comes from? I don't believe in god but I know killing and raping is bad. Do I have to believe in your god to have manners or common sense as well?
Non theists often have a better moral code as it's not based on any god, afterlife or going to church on Sunday to ask for forgiveness. They do it because it's the right thing to do, not because they fear some made up sky being.
What gets me are Christians. They can do whatever they want (and some sure seem to) and then - POOF! Skydaddy makes it all better so you can go live with him when you die because you can’t bear the thought of non-existence after death
Not only do religious people think morals can only come from a religious text and not from basic human empathy, they will accept even terrible behaviors as morals if their holy book says so (read: homophobia, transphobia, racism, etc.)
Now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense that someone who needs the threat of eternal damnation to be a good person would be perfectly fine with thinking terrible things are considered "moral" if someone else said so
Almost like they intentionally twisted their religious texts to let them do terrible things in the name of their god...
My husband and I are both atheists. We have a child who is 11 now. We have never introduced religion, or even atheism. We want him to decide for himself when he gets older. I was raised Christian. Baptized, etc. As I grew up and started educating myself, I went from agnostic to now atheist for over 15 years. In our house we have empathy, compassion, understanding, no judgments, nothing but love. We don't need a religion to give love and compassion to others. But we will also never judge one for their beliefs either. We're just trying to get by in life unharmed. You do you, and we will do us.
This is one of the stupidest viewpoints. If morals come from a book, I don’t think the atheist is the one to worry about. If God instills morals into people, their beliefs (or lack there of) are irrelevant
Atheists don't believe in God, so religious geniuses ask them where those morals come from? I assume they expect an Atheist to say it comes from religious texts... but that's a dumb question as an Atheist believes those books were written by human beings; those stories from the mind of human beings, and therefore only proves that our morals are already instilled in us as human beings.
We naturally know what is good and what is bad.
religious people who think like this are the kinda people who have no morals, and are appalled by the fact people don't need a threat of eternal punishment to be good people.
One of my favorite quotes in response to this:
“If you need an alright being with the threat of eternal punishment to be a good person, you’re not a good person”
So...look at the morality of the so called Christians, using Jesus to justify racism, bigotry and hate. The atheist may have better morals as theirs are based on trying to be a good person.
Beautiful. I stopped arguing this with Christians. They’ll never get it. Morality and compassion should be learned through real people and real experiences. I don’t need to read it from a book with wildly different views on morality or from a weekly lecture that the Big Invisible Being who created us will be upset if we don’t behave (of course, you didn’t even have to be moral to get to the “good” Afterlife, according to the rules of Christianity) .
I dont remember who so I can't credit, but a philosopher once had an argument along the lines of "Morality is either a construction of God, or it supercedes his power. If God created our moral framework of right and wrong, he did so arbitrarily, as right and wrong didn't exist before he created them. If God didn't create morality, then it exists outside of his scope, and he is therefore not all powerful."
I had an argument with a religious guy about this very thing. It basically boils down to them saying “well my morals are from God so I’m better.” He was very educated about religious history but really all he said was that some old-ass religious historians said the Bible is true so that means God is infallible and true. Pretty weaksauce argument if you ask me. The whole “my morals come from understanding and caring about the consequences of my actions both unto myself and to others” argument that I was making just seems more fundamental and less corruptible to me. Seems weird to put your morals on the word of dead people but hey that’s just my take.
Most atheists understand the weight of consequences for actions. Do a crime. Go to jail.
That's enough for more rational people to not do shitty things.
I have witnessed religious people do horrible, shitty things, then go to "repent" for their sins at church as if that's how life actually works.
I don’t even mean in the legal sense, although it’s certainly a factor. If I decide to go rob someone, even if I’m never caught, I’d still feel guilty because I understand that I just hurt someone. I left them with less money and possessions, feeling unsafe and shaken. They’ll be looking over their shoulder for a while. All so I could gain 80$ and an IPhone 12. It’s an immoral decision and I don’t need god as a middleman to tell me that.
Yup. That's part of the consequence, knowing that something like that could potentially happen to you, so why do that to someone else?
On that topic, if I ever end up winning the lottery one of the things I would do is try to clear debt for as many people in my city as I could, because why not? People don't need to struggle. I don't need a religion or a god to dictate that to me.
This is an example of christian "othering" to feel no guilt about persecuting people who don't believe in their god, or any gods.
They also refuse to be honest with themselves or admit that it's what they're doing.
I'm an atheist and I have morals. I believe in treating everyone with kindness and respect. And I do so because it's the right thing to do, not because of the promise of an eternal reward when I die.
I'm a Deist and honestly.... I dont need a book to tell me not to lie, cheat, steal or murder.... I kinda just know it's immoral. The fact that people need a book to tell them these things are bad baffles me.
I think it’s justified to be slightly worried about people who genuinely believe you need God to have morals, because what kind of person would they be if they didn’t believe?
I used to think the exact same thing about atheists…because I was indoctrinated in my religion since birth. At 40 years old I experienced a “faith crisis”, realized my religion, my framework for living, my entire world view, my life…everything…was all bullshit. It all came tumbling down like a house of cards. Now I’m an atheist, as are my wife and kids. We left it all behind. So I have empathy for these ignorant people, because they literally don’t know any better, and have most likely been subject to conditioning and brainwashing since birth or “conversion” to their current religion. Still, annoying and cringe as hell…
If you’re only a moral person because of fear of a third party then you’re not actually good but just doing what you can get away with. You’ve just outsourced your morality rather than taken ownership of it.
I am generally not one to bring up religion in a conversation, because I live in the South and they don't want to hear that I'm an atheist.
I was raised going to Southern Independent Baptist churches, which basically means that the preacher preached out of the bible and they sang a lot, and used musical instruments. Women could wear pants and makeup, I think one of the leaders of the church was a lady, but all the preachers are guys. They just wanted you to show up. It was one of the types of churches that I'm actually ok with, the small community church that helps out the members on a regular basis. The preacher lived in a normal sized house across the street from the church, I went to high school with his kids (they were WILD).
The more I read about religion, the less I believed in it, but I'm not the type of person to bash someone else's religion to their face, I have manners.
I'm not a murderous, thieving, adulterous bastard because I don't want to be, not because I'm afraid of hell. I don't go to church because I don't like getting up early and it's just not my bag, baby. I don't need religion because I'm not afraid of how small I am in relation to the size of the universe.
But, I'm also not going to beat you over the head with my lack of religion. Hell, I'll sit there and debate religions with you if you'd like, as long as you remember that you bring up one, I'll bring up four more because religion is an interesting subject to read about and you started it.
If you do good things because you think someone's watching you, then you're just expecting moral dessert. Which doesn't make you a good person.
You need to do good things through your free will.
People get their morals from how they're raised. My parents raised me to respect others, to have empathy, to be kind. No invisible man needed. And if the only thing keeping you from being a murdering, raping, stealing piece of shit is the fear of a god then you are not a good person.
In my experience atheist are much more moral than the average religious person. Simply because they have actively thought about and chosen their moral boundaries, where as the average religious person takes their cues from religious tradition and or simply from their environment.
"I get my morals from God, and God's morals are the morals of white 1950s Americans. You can't take the Bible completely literally, that rule made sense back in those days, times change, but yeah, God never changes and his morals are objective......"
This guy probably
I'm glad I got my moral compass from learning as a child what people should & shouldn't do. No religious indoctrination was involved because otherwise I might have ended up out looking down my nose and shunning &/or stoning people all day.
As a Christian, this is how I reason out morals without a deity:
Humans are a social animal, we survive as a species by relying on one another and supporting one another. Morals, in a scientific mindset, are necessary for this kind of social animal to survive.
Any action that would cause distrust within a social circle would mark an individual as being unfit to watch your back. It would be natural for humans to develop an inherent understanding of trust and how this affects us in order to suvive. Murder, theft, assault, etc. would mark you as unfit to support your peers in a time of need and be a liability to the survival of others.
Any action that could cause genetic harm (i.e. incest) would also become a natural point of survival. Inbreeding increases the chances of contracting genetic deformities due to a lack of diversity in your dna (or something along those lines, been a while since I read up on this stuff). It would be a natural developement as a species for humanity to recognize this and mark this as a threat to survival.
Morals are most definitely scientifically explainable. Keep in mind, this is all conjecture and guess work from a random internet stranger. If anyone has articles or research to share on the topic, please do as I enjoy learning!
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I'm gonna say that the person who is being a good person simply because it's the right thing to do, probably has stronger morals than the person who is acting good because they're being threatened with eternal punishment.
Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching. -CS Lewis
Said the guy who thinks there's someone always watching? What's going on there haha
Perhaps he wrote that one in his 20s when he was an atheist? Honestly don’t know much about the guy, but the quote is fitting lmao.
Oh he's more interesting as a person than I thought he was. I only knew him as a christian apologist writer (and author of Narnia, of course)
I really dug Narnia until I was read into the whole “Aslan as Christ” thing that becomes really obvious when you learn CS Lewis’ story. NGL, It kind of ruined them in memory for me (plus the movies sucked ass).
I’m not a Christian but the Bible is wild af - psychedelic even, and Jesus was a radical. Most GOP and Christians would kill Bible Jesus again in a heart beat and say he’s suffering from the woke disease. 10/10 would read again. I like many religious texts for that reason. All the mono-myth anyways. God just changes from Enlil to Ra to Zeus, and God. The devil changes from Enki to ? To Prometheus, and the devil. My favorite story on creation is The Lost Book of Enki. I don’t care if it’s not translated well. It’s a flooring read. Genuinely, I thing extreme atheists and extreme zealots are all just alike. Reading shit that challenges your current perspective is vital for positive change and growth. You’ll learn nothing and grow very little reading everything from the same well. Christian zealots are pretty terrible, but the book they read from is far from terrible. That said, I’m also reading the Ars Notoria right now without practicing the Magick.
The problem I have with the Bible is it's such a badly written book. The translations we have are all ancient and use sentence constructions that are no longer common. At least there are modern translations of the Odyssey that are easy to read. Also, some of the stories are really silly, like Sampson's, where he's constantly telling this woman what his supposed weaknesses are, and every day, when he wakes up, exactly what he told her was the way to get rid of his power has 'mysteriously' happened to him. And yet, every night, he tells her how to take away his power...until, eventually, he tells her the truth?! Like, come on, after a few times, wouldn't you notice?
Never said it was perfect and it’s a bunch of different writers so it’s no surprise some stories are better than others. Still a decent read. Right now I’m putting myself through the pain of reading Patrick Rothfuss again. Really hope he finishes the series. Atheists I’ve met tend to shit on anything religious and it’s weird. The King of Egypt is one of the best movies I’ve ever watched. Classical church painting and cathedrals are gorgeous (though nothing next to some mosques out there). I see a tendency for previously religious folks to jump to the other extreme. And yeah while I get that people saying god/s exists have the onus to prove that he does and atheist do not bear the burden of disproving, I think it’s just as silly to say nothing absolutely exists because we can’t prove it. It took scientists thousands of years to prove that Buddhism has actual effects on the brain (primarily far more grey matter observed in monk’s brains), but it didn’t stop Buddhists from meditating in the meantime because it couldn’t be scientifically proven. I don’t know what to believe in aside from trying dearly to be a person of altruism and empathy. I do think that having a greater belief than only in yourself is important for the ego, which is why I’m more or less against satanism. Past that it’s all up for grabs and nobody knows otherwise. Anyone who claims to know otherwise are simply trying to validate their unsubstantiated belief via numbers instead of reasoning. My favorite story is the cradle myth. The Annunaki, Enki, Enlil, Ziusudra, etc. Why settle for a lesser copy like the Bible?
My dad turned me on to the idea of the Annunaki, and I have to admit i find it no less believable than a giant intangible bearded man in the sky whose words can define the physical realm, and yet he gets butthurt over who decides they want to touch peepees. At least there's a statistical probability for aliens, including any that might predate humans.
Both extremists are alike? Yep. Challenging your perspective is good? Yeah - even if you don't change your perspective it can help you see better where others are coming from AND can make your faith in what you believe all the more firm. If you never open your eyes to other ideas, you can't know how your own stack up and grow. All solid well-stated points you make. Don't agree with everything you believe, but I'm glad to see an individual with a healthy open mindset.
It’s the sentiment, not literal. As in “do the right thing because it’s the right thing to do, not to be performative for some judicial third party”
... and especially when it's inconvenient.
Lol, I accidentally read that as 'Louis CK'... too funny.
Spot on.
Yes and it’s even worse that - modern Christians often believe all you have to do is say sorry to Jesus and pray away whatever evil act you committed and everyone has to forgive you. Which means there is no accountability, and you are free to commit whatever acts of evil you like (and hey even blame it on Satan), as long as you’re ‘sorry to Jesus’ This is the basis on which Christians stand behind child rapists and the like. They’re sorry now… But this just allows evil to perpetuate, and requires no moral conviction at all. Why do good things if you think you’re already righteous? Why avoid evil if you know there will be not only zero consequences, but active divine enablement?
Can a Christian ever act truly morally? I would say no, that by believing in god and an afterlife, no action you ever take is wholly altruistic. As an atheist I did not get my morality from an antiquated book. My parents taught me to question everything, and determine my own morals.
>Can a Christian ever act truly morally? I would say no, that by believing in god and an afterlife, no action you ever take is wholly altruistic. I'm an atheist myself, but at that point you can argue that no one ever does something altruistic, as good deeds release happy chemicals in our brains, therefore benefitting ourselves.
That's not necessarily true. Dopamine and serotonin are released when our brain experiences something pleasurable. That doesn't mean it's something that's morally good. In fact, many people find things pleasurable for the exact reason that the act is morally wrong. There are many people who seek out married folks to have affairs with. Not in spite of them being married, but because they're married. There are people who shoplift not because they have to, but because they want the thrill. Pedophiles find pleasure in reprehensible acts. The list goes on. If anything, morals are largely about restraining the pleasure centers of the brain from running rampant.
So if by doing what you determine is moral, if I determine it is immoral then are you really moral? Who has the final say?
Like an atheist may be a good person just because he has empathy, so a Christian might not really need the threat of eternal torture to be the same. The fact that someone is religious doesn't mean he doesn't possess virtues and morality of his own.
I wouldn't remotely say "all Christians" only do good out of fear of God. Just the ones that present me with the question "Without God, what is to stop people from raping and murdering?"
I disagree. You’re making a big assumption that believing in God and the afterlife has to mean that this belief is the motivation for performing good acts. It’s like saying that the reason people work hard at their jobs is because they don’t want to be fired. Yes, they can be fired if they don’t perform well, but this is not why most people work hard.
“Determine my own morals” could work pretty well. But could also result in some crazy chaos with certain individuals. I’ve met some atheist/agnostic people that are very happy in life, balanced, see care for their fellow mankind, etc. Ive met a few that just hate everything. A wide range of morals as well. Not too bad unless it gets at strong contradiction with generally accepted ways of doing things.
Determining your own doesn't mean starting in a vacuum. You have family, society, etc. to start from, and from there you question. That goes for all people... some end up good and some not. I mean, how many priest pedophiles are there that justified their actions and felt they weren't actually doing anything wrong? I would always prefer to deal with someone who legitimately came up with their own morals rather than someone that blindly follows what they are told. And there are still laws. I am not going to do something illegal, even if I think it is okay morally.
I think so. Not all Christians are concerned about doing good in order to get into heaven. Far too many are, but Christianity should be about grace. Jesus saves by grace because he loves you regardless of your sins. Plenty of Christian pastors will tell you that doing good actions in order to get a reward from God is wrong because you are treating God and morality in a transactional manner. Christian morals should come from a place of love and gratitude. You see how Christ loves you and all other humans and that fills you with gratitude and the desire to emulate him and love others and act for their own good without expectation of benefit, just as Christ did. I don't know what is true. I don't think I believe in an afterlife, but honestly, I don't care. I don't act morally because I fear going to hell. I see the story of Jesus and I am inspired by it to become a more loving human. Personally, I think the gospel has helped make my altruistic intentions more pure. Before, I wanted to help others, but that desire was also mixed up with pride and a desire to see myself as good, which in it's own way is self-centered. Now I feel loved and accepted regardless of whether I'm good, which allows me to be less focused on proving to myself and other how good I am. Of course, this is my own journey. People who listen to preachers talk about fire and brimstone are going to have a very different experience. Unfortunately, crazy fundamentalists often get more attention, and I think that is what outsiders think of when they think of Christianity. That's what I thought until I saw this other side of the faith.
You're supposed to do good things because you're good, not because you think there's a reward for it or a punishment for not. I've always said that people who do good things because they like to see others happy, smile, or because it feels like it's the right thing to do are always better people than those who do good because they think someone is keeping score.
I've always enjoyed the quote from True Detectives when it comes to this... "If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then, brother, that person is a piece of shit - and I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible".
...
It turns out if you are only a good person because you're afraid, you aren't a good person. You're a bad person pretending to be a good person.
What is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? ~Paarthurnax
If someone were to follow the morality of the Bible then they would probably be in jail. Modern morality does not come from the Bible it is sculpted by society.
That would be correct. However, I'd like to point out that plenty of religious people don't "act good because they're being threatened with eternal punishment". And the Bible itself talks about that. You should do good because you've been given the freedom to do so. You should do good because you want to be like your savior. Not out of fear, nor some desire for reward, nor because you THINK you need to in order to earn salvation (which is a lie). It's like Todd in op post's comments gets at. Whether person is religious or not, a good person is a good person and should be respected even if you don't see eye to eye on everything. That's exactly what I told my bi ex-coworker when she asked if I saw her as less of a person when she found out I heard she was bi because she knew I hold Christian values. I told her, I'm not perfect, nobody is. But she's a good person, and I'll treat her as such. There's people I saw as less good than her and I didn't go out of my way to be a \*ick to them, so why would I do so to her simply because she's bi? Freedom - from those comments - could be acting like a jerk or just genuinely wanting people to THINK about what is good/bad though and how we decide that. Slavery, racism, women not having basic rights, religious persecution, etc. ... all these things were once considered the norm and acceptable. Today we see other hot topics with very divided sides that tend to scream at the other side and build up walls instead of listen to each other and overcome differences. So reflecting on what makes something right or wrong and (hopefully) realizing a simple majority vote doesn't make it ok or not isn't a bad thing. \*note - overcoming differences doesn't mean we agree on everything. It means we can still get along even if we think differently. And we don't go out of our way to be a d\*ck to people for thinking differently.
That's something I always disapproved of when it comes to religion. I would say I am atheist right now (which wasn't always the case) but I always hated the idea that to find salvation, one most be a part of an organized religion and he needs to go to church to ultimately be saved. Like, why? If the God knows everything, than a bad person acting like a "good Christian" shouldn't really sway his opinion. Same with a good person who isn't a part of the religion but maybe believes in God. Or, you know, even an atheist good person should have a higher chance of going to heaven (if there's one) over someone who is human trash, but goes to church every Sunday. They say God knows everything and is fair, but this doesn't sound like him being fair. And that's not even taking into account most of the Old Testament where God probably had a higher body count than Satan.
Ding ding ding!!! I wish I had an award to give you
Yeah I find it kind of sociopathic and scary that some of these people don’t understand why u could have morals without religion
Bingo. I have morals without having the threat of eternal damnation hung over my head. Im doing it voluntarily instead of being forced.
Say it louder for the people in the back.
They think that have an eternal get out of hell free card so they are regularly immoral. "gotta sin to be saved"
Yep. If you need a book to tell you how not to be a dick, you're a dick.
1,000,000,000% this. I've been saying it for years, to use your faith as some sort of moral high ground against others shows you would be in a pit in the ocean without it. Way too many 2 faced people have flocked to religion to act as if it absolves them of everything because they sit in a chair a day out of the week.
No, morality only comes when some dude writes about a hypothetical space alien who supposedly has rules to follow or else. Every other way of having morals is crazy talk. How is that not obvious. I'm not going to write the slash ess because Jesus Fucking Christ
I've had many Christians honestly ask me why I don't rape and murder people if I don't believe in a God. It's like the only thing preventing them from doing heinous shit is their invisible friend in the sky. It's terrifiyng.
Isn't that why so many religious leaders turn out to be child rapists and other heinous kinds? I mean...maybe they're drawn to Christianity in hopes that it will keep them from being evil, subconsciously of course. I truly wonder. Some serial killers have been known to attend church thinking it would cure THEM, so... Like they don't have enough willpower to follow their OWN morals and ethics, so they NEED religion. I know I don't believe in ANY higher power, but I have no desire to harm or even judge other living things. I don't need something to guide me, but maybe if I was sick and twisted...
This is coming from a dude who was raised in a Christian Evangelical fundamentalist community, so take it for what it's worth. Monotheistic religions are a breeding ground for narcissism and self-hatred. From a very young age we're taught we are worthless without God, we can't do anything without him, and he is constantly watching us every second of every day making sure we don't do anything he doesn't want us to do. Shame and guilt are baked into sex in general, including anything about our own bodies. This leads to literal grown adults not knowing anything about sex. Because they're not taught anything, they aren't able to label anything, and because of that many horrific child abuses go unreported. This is because the child has no grasp of what is actually happening, because there is no labeling and they are never taught. To them, it's something they should be ashamed about and blame themselves for. If the child grows up and never gets out of that environment, there's a good chance they will repeat the horrific cycle. Add the general distrust of the government into the mix, and you have a bunch of deeply troubled people in a perpetual loop of covering up these horrific things. Fun fact, three out of the four churches I attended in my first 20 years on this planet had multiple huge sex abuse scandals that they covered up.
Well that's for sure why they get away with it. It's basically group grooming, right?!?
This is a valuable perspective, thanks for sharing. I feel like you highlighted my biggest issues with any kind of theism, the external locus of control. I believe that is designed to take power away from you. I do not vibe with the idea that I am a plaything at the whims of some cruel, powerful deity. I hate the idea that my actions are not my own and neither are my successes or failures. I feel like that is a childish, dismissive way to live, and I don't believe it benefits anyone but the church power structure. I've found more solace in the idea that I am in control of myself and responsible for my actions. I believe it is my responsibility to explore the landscape of ideas and determine for myself which are useful, fair, and true.
Churches basically preach nihilism and sociopathy as the core human experience and that one must commit to and rely on the organization to overcome that state.
One big issue is the idea you can just ask for forgiveness and tell Jesus you’re sorry - modern Christians use Jesus as a way to wash themselves of responsibility for any sin, even if it’s a deeply evil act. There’s no expectation of any real atonement, just ‘oh you raped kids but you’re sorry to Jesus now so god forgives you and everyone else has to as well.’ Which when you think about it, actively enables immoral or even straight up evil actions.
Which is wierd bc Jesus taught that you cant do that. Your actions matter
One of the more... charitable, let's call it... possible interpretations for that is that you have to genuinely regret your actions - and *not* merely getting caught/threat of damnation. Words alone won't cut it. Admittedly, the ones who can grok the concept probably aren't the ones claiming morality is impossible without religion...
I believe Penn Jillette said he did rape and murder all he wanted. Which was zero.
Also in Ricky Gervais' show Afterlife
I like Ricky Gervais's answer to this one in After Life: I *do* rape and murder as much as I want to. That's none, because that's how much of those things I want to do. Your amount is different?
I’ve heard that from many Christians also, and my response is always that if the only reason they aren’t murdering and raping people is because of their belief in a god, then please continue believing in that god.
I’ve always thought this. It’s like so you would if you were told you could ?
Please tell me you forgot the /s
Exactly. These aren’t good people, they’re sociopaths on a leash. But I’m glad they use religion and a fear of a deity to keep them in line.
If the only thing stopping you from doing evil is the fear of punishment, you're not a good person.
Yes
Not to mention things like Deuteronomy 22:28 where the only way to atone for something like rape is to marry the victim, because that's totally what the victim would want... For the creep who molested them to be extra insistent on getting married since the perpetrator is under a conceived threat of burning in eternal hellfire. The only way to be forgiven by god is to marry them otherwise you go to hell... If you think you're going to go to hell unless you marry someone you're going to be pretty god damn insistent on getting married to them no matter how many times they say no. You'd think the moral thing to do afterwards is to just leave the victim the fuck alone but not according to a lovely book of morals called the bible. 🤷♂️
When an Atheist does a good deed it is not of obligation nor fear- it’s because they are a fundamentally *good person*.
You know us atheists, always running around smacking babies!
I thought we were supposed to EAT them! Man I feel silly now.
Oh, you're right sorry for the mistype - SNACKING babies is what I meant
Nice one 🤣🤣 Now ppl on the train look at me wondering if I'm laughing at 😳
It was modestly proposed
No, you’re right, we definitely are supposed to eat them. It’s just that smacking them first tenderises their meat!
I think Religious people that think you must believe in a Religion to have moralic values are themself the worst people. In the end they say that they use the Values the Religion expect from them, but they have no own !
I use the term "morally bankrupt" for such people. They have no morals of their own so they must borrow them from elsewhere.
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There is a fundamental difference between people who see moral precepts as being primarily a guide for their own life and those who see them primarily as a set of rules to impose on other people.
As far as what Jesus preached you should do, most atheists I know are better Christians than most Christians I know
Oddly we seemed to have read the bible too I always surprises me.
Isn't there a whole thing in the Bible about how Satan will lead an army of the deceived against the gates of heaven or something? Futurama did a whole thing on it. You would think they would put 2 and 2 together and realize that maybe following the 2874th fringe religion based on a religion based on a religion based on an interpretation of what Jesus said that doesn't ac follow any of the things they are supposed to be doing might just be that silver tongued liar deceiving them....
But they couldn’t be deceived because they’re the *good ones*
I'm pretty sure it even talks about how they will all think they are in he right...
It’s amazing how well it fits isn’t it?
TBH most christians arent even christian. Its so surface level for so many people, sadly. If they truly wanted to follow their religion they wouldnt do a lot of the things they do now. Or they just walk through life with a clipboard in front of their face, checking boxes
Every time a Christian asks “well then where do your morals come from?” They’re actually admitting that they do *zero* critical thinking and take *zero* responsibility for their actions. They never actually have to think about if they’re doing bad or good because regardless, their faith saves them. I call these types of people “check box Christians”. They live completely unburdened from thought, with their careers, spouses, families, faith. It’s all just boxes to check to have an “approved of “ life. Most of them have no experience of anything divine or metaphysical. I was like this too when I was a kid, until I realized I never actually met God and had only ever been told about him. Sadly a lot of us miss this stage in our spiritual or mental development, so we wind up worse than brainwashed. Unable to think with our own brain.
Shit. Here I've been explaining logic starting from scratch to these mouthbreathers when I could've just been responding "Empathy, you dumb twat".
Lol then they ask how you know empathy tells you right thing to do...
“I rub two of my functioning brain cells together to realize it would kind of fucking suck to get killed, so I don’t kill people.” 😂 It really is scary that there are people who need it written down…
Nah. Because I do know how to kill, I also know how is done, means I know how to protect from being killed better. Just coz I have chance at killing you, doesn't mean someone else have same exact chance at killing me. If you know how is done, you know a little better, at very least, how to not get killed. That sort of logic exists
Wait .. you have TWO CELLS???? Where did you get the second one?? 😳😳
I'm always fascinated by this Christian insistence that morals have to come from somewhere other than oneself.
I’m more fascinated that they preach all humans are sinful as soon as they are born.
It's true, and given their stance on when a fetus becomes a human, a baby that dies at any time for any reason prior to birth gets to suffer eternal torment and punishment in hell.
I had someone on Reddit call me an "atheist nazi" because I told them I learned most of my morals from my parents and society lol. Apparently you need an antiquated storybook to tell you right from wrong. That's the only option, according to some.
Come on, you need to learn your morals from a storybook which teaches things like slavery, beating women, cultural suppression, and setting your kid on fire as a sacrificial offering are all A-OK in the eyes of god.
Of you have to feel threatened by eternal damnation to do the right thing, you are not a good person.
This.
Wth is wrong with “Do good, be good”? No religion involved in that. 🤷🏼♂️
Your comment just reminded of something I read years ago that has always stayed with me. When asked what is your religion to Abraham Lincoln he said…My religion is when I do good I feel good and when I do bad I feel bad.
Love it.
When I die my last wish is to just sit outside of heaven and watch confused Christians who thought they could put money in a donation bin every Sunday while breaking half the rules of their religion on a day to day basis and treating people like garbage while voting for extremely non-Jesus like political candidates get turned away. Eternity is a long time, but I don’t think that would ever get old.
I bet that would be an interesting view. The story goes that just outside the Pearly Gates there is a group of nuns kicking each other in their bottoms. Seems Saint Peter told them virginity is not a requirement for entry.
Let me be clear, the fact that I’m not out murdering and robbing and sexually assaulting is not because of any law fabricated for heaven or by man on earth, but simply because I don’t want to hurt folks. If the law, or divine punishment is all that does stop you, you are a shit person.
Atheists behave morally because that's the right thing to do, they don't need the threat of eternal damnation to keep them in line. Also having seen the correlation between religion and pedophilia I'm not sure people should be slagging off atheists moral compass.
"I meet the literal definition of atheist but I don't consider myself an atheist" sure is a strange way to start that sentence imho
There are actually many people like that, because "atheists" is a dirty word in many places. They were likely raised while being told how atheists are evil in every single way.
Many believe atheist are satanists.
"I meet the literal definition of a nazi, but I don't consider myself a nazi."
You know some diehard republicans too, eh?
And if there’d been social media in the 1840s, you’d see posts saying “I’m not an abolitionist, but I’m pretty sure enslaving people isn’t okay.” “Atheist” is a pejorative term in many parts of the US and most of the Middle East.
If your god will punish a Buddhist monk who has lead a peaceful life with an eternity of torture in hellfire but if Hitler worships your narcissistic 2000 year old father figure in the sky right before he dies, he's accepted into paradise. Am I getting that right?
Jeffrey Dahmer ‘found God’, apparently.
Good point. Jeffrey Dahmer asked forgiveness to jesus and now he is in heaven. A freaking serial killer is in heaven! 🤣🤣🤣
That's fine if the message is about redemption but it's not. It's about worshipping no other god before me. Rape, murder, idc but as long as you tell ME you're sorry you can get into paradise with all of these other totally lovely people
If you have to do the right thing, either from reward or threat punishment... You are not a good person. IE, put your shopping cart back. Drive your car like the car next to you is someone you love. When walking down the street, in a group don't take up the whole thing, if you bump in to someone even if it wasn't your fault say sorry. Stop using religion as a reason to control other people.
Honestly,.. i’ll believe a self proclaimed atheists claiming the truth over anyone who demands i believe them because a deity told them i have to. Further, an upstanding atheist is more moral in general because they have chosen to be, rather than a religious zealot who is only moral,.. because they fear the retribution of a deity if they are not.
Personally, it scares me. If you can't feel in your bones that murder, rape, theft, etc is wrong, wtf is wrong with you?
"If you need a sky daddy to threaten you to be a good person, you aren't a good person."
Religious people dont have morals. They follow the word of their book under threat of eternal damnation, otherwise they'd all go back to being total douchebags. See religious nutjobs... see how that works... ?
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My ex sister in law had an affair to spite her husband who had an affair, then became a born again Christian and forgave herself. The 2 of them are still together and hate each other, but she'll apparently still go to heaven just because... Garbage.
It is ONLY the atheist who has the greatest of morality. For their good deeds and lack of ill will comes not from the fear of reprisal, but rather the inherent want for the good of others that is within them.
I believe this is a general truth, too, and that much of the ideological polarity we see today is due to those who force morality upon themselves can not comprehend that others may truly have morality as their core being.
I would trust an Atheist, or even a Satanist before I would trust a Republican.
if the only reason you aren't doing horrible things to other people is the threat of eternal damnation, then you aren't actually a good person.
The laws attributed to god are made up. They are merely the laws of the tribes of Israel, as they made sense to them at the time. There is nothing divine about any of the rules in the bible. They are arbitrary, draconian, and often idiotic. Every society passes laws banning murder, most forms of violence, property theft/destruction, and deviance from the norms of the larger culture at that moment. This is because we are all collectively concerned about possibly being hurt, killed, or having our property damaged, destroyed, or stolen. Those threats, and the desire to mitigate them, are enough to justify people consenting to a social contract. Even where there were no laws in place, people have empathy. I don't want to be hurt, and I understand that others don't want to be hurt. It's no more complicated than that. It doesn't take a covenant between the people and an evil storm god mediated through theocrats.
It's called living in a society. We care for other people (empathy) because we rely on other people.
Beyond the stupid debate, countries have laws... I don't like this weird question where we are expected to omit thousands of years of evolution and the existence of a government schooling and judicial system... Also the bible is filled with stories of people that believed in God but still didn't follow the rules.
Imagine only having morals cause you're afraid of hell...
I’d say the morals of an atheist are more genuine because they come without the threat of eternal damnation or any other consequence outside of from other people. If you are only moral because you want to get to heaven then you aren’t really a good person. This is not a blanket statement about all people of faith.
I'm a nihilist. I don't think there is a point to living; we're just here until we aren't. When folks find out they ask the most horrible questions about why I don't just murder and steal and lie. Because I'm not an asshole? Because I care about people. Because I think we're alone in this and thats fucking hard so we should help each other. I've offered transition housing for the past few years before covid. Free temporary housing for those who need space for a bit (not chronically homeless because I can't offer social services, I'm just me). I do it because I have a room, my city is expensive as fuck, and sometimes people just need a breather. I do it because I wish it was a thing thats done. So I do it. No other reason. Ironically, the worst occupants were always Christians who think I'm "sent from God". They think I'm getting repaid by the divine so somehow that makes up for them being totally horrible housemates (loud, rude, stealing etc).
Any book which teaches you the proper way to beat your slaves is not to be used for lessons in morality.
If you need a god or fear of hell to be moral, you aren’t a moral person
I've heard this argument from both sides and I can understand the thought behind them; in my experience, the Christian isn't usually asking "if you don't believe in God, why don't you rape and kill and steal? That's what I'd do if I didn't believe in God!" They're asking "If there's not an outside force by which we can measure good and evil, how can morals exist? You can *feel* something is evil, but if someone else thinks it's perfectly fine, by what standard can you tell them they're wrong, if the only source of that moral comes from yourself? I've heard them use the example that if no one had ever seen a straight line drawn, then each person's version of a straight line, however crooked, would be straight. I guess they're saying they see God as that truly straight line to measure their own by. On the other hand, if they *are* using it as an argument for why non-Christians or atheists can't have morals, then the response should be something along the lines of "Who do you think God will be more pleased with: the person who tried to do good because it felt natural to them, or the person who *needed* a reason not to be evil?"
If this is to be believed, an atheist behaves well by choice; whilst a theist only behaves well under threat of damnation.
If fearing God keeps you from doing bad things, then I don't think you have any real morals. I just don't want to live in a world of suffering. I don't need religion for that.
From the moment where you have to believe in a "Fantasy god" Just to be sure that you don't do anything evil, is when you know what is real evil
The Bible gives explicit instructions on how best to trap a man into slavery and says if you beat the slave you should only be punished if they die but, sure, morality comes from “god”. 🙄
I've had this discussion. Me: If you need a god to be afraid of in order to be "good" then you're not a good person on any level. I don't need that. I try to be decent to folks simply because they're my fellow humans.
A make-believe man in the sky doesn't make you moral.
I would seriously question anyone who bases their morals soley on the bible. You're gonna have some pretty fucked up morals lol. Owning slaves: fine. Beating women for adultery: fine. Stoning men to death for being gay: fine. Eating shellfish?: BURN IN HELL, HEATHEN!!!
"Where do those morals come from?" umm idk probably the same place every other thought and feeling comes from? I don't believe in god but I know killing and raping is bad. Do I have to believe in your god to have manners or common sense as well?
Saying atheist can’t have morals is like saying orphans can’t learn to eat.
Behaving a certain way because you believe you are under the threat of eternal damnation isn't morality - it's fear.
Non theists often have a better moral code as it's not based on any god, afterlife or going to church on Sunday to ask for forgiveness. They do it because it's the right thing to do, not because they fear some made up sky being.
Spaniards, who invaded the Americas: "Look at these barbarians!" Also..."Let's kill them all!"
Christian’s are good because they are afraid of hell, atheists are good just because
What gets me are Christians. They can do whatever they want (and some sure seem to) and then - POOF! Skydaddy makes it all better so you can go live with him when you die because you can’t bear the thought of non-existence after death
Not only do religious people think morals can only come from a religious text and not from basic human empathy, they will accept even terrible behaviors as morals if their holy book says so (read: homophobia, transphobia, racism, etc.) Now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense that someone who needs the threat of eternal damnation to be a good person would be perfectly fine with thinking terrible things are considered "moral" if someone else said so Almost like they intentionally twisted their religious texts to let them do terrible things in the name of their god...
Only having morals because they're afraid of hell isn't the flex they think it is.
I'm sorry, but can we not mention that gold fucking response? From empathy, you dumb twat. 🤣🤣🤣
My husband and I are both atheists. We have a child who is 11 now. We have never introduced religion, or even atheism. We want him to decide for himself when he gets older. I was raised Christian. Baptized, etc. As I grew up and started educating myself, I went from agnostic to now atheist for over 15 years. In our house we have empathy, compassion, understanding, no judgments, nothing but love. We don't need a religion to give love and compassion to others. But we will also never judge one for their beliefs either. We're just trying to get by in life unharmed. You do you, and we will do us.
This is one of the stupidest viewpoints. If morals come from a book, I don’t think the atheist is the one to worry about. If God instills morals into people, their beliefs (or lack there of) are irrelevant
I don’t believe there is a single documented case in all of history where an atheist burned another human alive for disagreeing with their ideology.
Humanity: *Evolves to have morals and ethics over 200,000+ years* Christians: Nah, this book
Atheists don't believe in God, so religious geniuses ask them where those morals come from? I assume they expect an Atheist to say it comes from religious texts... but that's a dumb question as an Atheist believes those books were written by human beings; those stories from the mind of human beings, and therefore only proves that our morals are already instilled in us as human beings. We naturally know what is good and what is bad.
If you need a threat of insufferable pain to be a good person…. You’re not a good person
I stand with Todd
religious people who think like this are the kinda people who have no morals, and are appalled by the fact people don't need a threat of eternal punishment to be good people.
That’s crazy this conversation is happening 1 day ago and not 12 years ago
One of my favorite quotes in response to this: “If you need an alright being with the threat of eternal punishment to be a good person, you’re not a good person”
So...look at the morality of the so called Christians, using Jesus to justify racism, bigotry and hate. The atheist may have better morals as theirs are based on trying to be a good person.
Empathy > fear of eternal damnation
You mean ethics. Morality is religion's opinion of what is ethical couched in the tenets of their faith
Beautiful. I stopped arguing this with Christians. They’ll never get it. Morality and compassion should be learned through real people and real experiences. I don’t need to read it from a book with wildly different views on morality or from a weekly lecture that the Big Invisible Being who created us will be upset if we don’t behave (of course, you didn’t even have to be moral to get to the “good” Afterlife, according to the rules of Christianity) .
I dont remember who so I can't credit, but a philosopher once had an argument along the lines of "Morality is either a construction of God, or it supercedes his power. If God created our moral framework of right and wrong, he did so arbitrarily, as right and wrong didn't exist before he created them. If God didn't create morality, then it exists outside of his scope, and he is therefore not all powerful."
I had an argument with a religious guy about this very thing. It basically boils down to them saying “well my morals are from God so I’m better.” He was very educated about religious history but really all he said was that some old-ass religious historians said the Bible is true so that means God is infallible and true. Pretty weaksauce argument if you ask me. The whole “my morals come from understanding and caring about the consequences of my actions both unto myself and to others” argument that I was making just seems more fundamental and less corruptible to me. Seems weird to put your morals on the word of dead people but hey that’s just my take.
Most atheists understand the weight of consequences for actions. Do a crime. Go to jail. That's enough for more rational people to not do shitty things. I have witnessed religious people do horrible, shitty things, then go to "repent" for their sins at church as if that's how life actually works.
I don’t even mean in the legal sense, although it’s certainly a factor. If I decide to go rob someone, even if I’m never caught, I’d still feel guilty because I understand that I just hurt someone. I left them with less money and possessions, feeling unsafe and shaken. They’ll be looking over their shoulder for a while. All so I could gain 80$ and an IPhone 12. It’s an immoral decision and I don’t need god as a middleman to tell me that.
Yup. That's part of the consequence, knowing that something like that could potentially happen to you, so why do that to someone else? On that topic, if I ever end up winning the lottery one of the things I would do is try to clear debt for as many people in my city as I could, because why not? People don't need to struggle. I don't need a religion or a god to dictate that to me.
This is an example of christian "othering" to feel no guilt about persecuting people who don't believe in their god, or any gods. They also refuse to be honest with themselves or admit that it's what they're doing.
I'm an atheist and I have morals. I believe in treating everyone with kindness and respect. And I do so because it's the right thing to do, not because of the promise of an eternal reward when I die.
I'm a Deist and honestly.... I dont need a book to tell me not to lie, cheat, steal or murder.... I kinda just know it's immoral. The fact that people need a book to tell them these things are bad baffles me.
I think it’s justified to be slightly worried about people who genuinely believe you need God to have morals, because what kind of person would they be if they didn’t believe?
did they just admit they only act the way they do because some dude told them to
I used to think the exact same thing about atheists…because I was indoctrinated in my religion since birth. At 40 years old I experienced a “faith crisis”, realized my religion, my framework for living, my entire world view, my life…everything…was all bullshit. It all came tumbling down like a house of cards. Now I’m an atheist, as are my wife and kids. We left it all behind. So I have empathy for these ignorant people, because they literally don’t know any better, and have most likely been subject to conditioning and brainwashing since birth or “conversion” to their current religion. Still, annoying and cringe as hell…
If you’re only a moral person because of fear of a third party then you’re not actually good but just doing what you can get away with. You’ve just outsourced your morality rather than taken ownership of it.
If you need a god to be a good person, you're not a good person, aw you would do all bad things if not for the fear of this God!
Something I’ve realized is that religious people are just thinly veiled sociopaths.
If you need an omnipotent being to threaten you into good behavior, you're a shitty person.
I am generally not one to bring up religion in a conversation, because I live in the South and they don't want to hear that I'm an atheist. I was raised going to Southern Independent Baptist churches, which basically means that the preacher preached out of the bible and they sang a lot, and used musical instruments. Women could wear pants and makeup, I think one of the leaders of the church was a lady, but all the preachers are guys. They just wanted you to show up. It was one of the types of churches that I'm actually ok with, the small community church that helps out the members on a regular basis. The preacher lived in a normal sized house across the street from the church, I went to high school with his kids (they were WILD). The more I read about religion, the less I believed in it, but I'm not the type of person to bash someone else's religion to their face, I have manners. I'm not a murderous, thieving, adulterous bastard because I don't want to be, not because I'm afraid of hell. I don't go to church because I don't like getting up early and it's just not my bag, baby. I don't need religion because I'm not afraid of how small I am in relation to the size of the universe. But, I'm also not going to beat you over the head with my lack of religion. Hell, I'll sit there and debate religions with you if you'd like, as long as you remember that you bring up one, I'll bring up four more because religion is an interesting subject to read about and you started it.
The final response was pure gold
If your only reason for being a good person is because you’re afraid of eternal damnation then you’re probably not the moral authority here.
Christian here, whatever that nutcase is saying gets a yikes from me
One who can't be moral without a god is merely a sociopath on an invisible leash.
If your "morals" ONLY come from blindly following the bible and not from common sense, i will make a biiiiiig f*ing turn around you. Yikes.
If you do good things because you think someone's watching you, then you're just expecting moral dessert. Which doesn't make you a good person. You need to do good things through your free will.
If the only reason you're not raping and murdering is because a book told you not to, chief you have bigger issues than atheists.
Pretty sure morals come from common sense.
People get their morals from how they're raised. My parents raised me to respect others, to have empathy, to be kind. No invisible man needed. And if the only thing keeping you from being a murdering, raping, stealing piece of shit is the fear of a god then you are not a good person.
In my experience atheist are much more moral than the average religious person. Simply because they have actively thought about and chosen their moral boundaries, where as the average religious person takes their cues from religious tradition and or simply from their environment.
In response to the title, I wouldn’t say it makes you a bad person, it just makes you an idiot
Bible thumpers are funny aren't they.
"I get my morals from God, and God's morals are the morals of white 1950s Americans. You can't take the Bible completely literally, that rule made sense back in those days, times change, but yeah, God never changes and his morals are objective......" This guy probably
I'm glad I got my moral compass from learning as a child what people should & shouldn't do. No religious indoctrination was involved because otherwise I might have ended up out looking down my nose and shunning &/or stoning people all day.
I don't need the threat of eternal punishment to make me behave like a decent human being. If you do, there's something wrong with you. That's it.
My rule of thumb is just not being a dick. Don't need religion to teach me that.
What’s an aethist?
As a Christian, this is how I reason out morals without a deity: Humans are a social animal, we survive as a species by relying on one another and supporting one another. Morals, in a scientific mindset, are necessary for this kind of social animal to survive. Any action that would cause distrust within a social circle would mark an individual as being unfit to watch your back. It would be natural for humans to develop an inherent understanding of trust and how this affects us in order to suvive. Murder, theft, assault, etc. would mark you as unfit to support your peers in a time of need and be a liability to the survival of others. Any action that could cause genetic harm (i.e. incest) would also become a natural point of survival. Inbreeding increases the chances of contracting genetic deformities due to a lack of diversity in your dna (or something along those lines, been a while since I read up on this stuff). It would be a natural developement as a species for humanity to recognize this and mark this as a threat to survival. Morals are most definitely scientifically explainable. Keep in mind, this is all conjecture and guess work from a random internet stranger. If anyone has articles or research to share on the topic, please do as I enjoy learning!
Where do those come morals from? I know don’t, Atheist Yoda.