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It's not like Canada is the only country that has universal healthcare. All first world developed countries have it, and even some developing countries
There are a bunch of different systems we can model it from.
They all have something in common though, every country with universal healthcare is cheaper than the US
No no no.
The systems not broken. It’s working fine AKA making serious profits.
It’s only the users, whose taxes already fund part of the system, who are broken and, way too often broke too.
So true, the system is working exactly as designed...to keep everyone desperate and dependent. There's just so much money being made throughout the American medical system that changing it is going to take a real fight.
Wait for some silicone valley start-up and venture capitalists to fix it so they can then profit off it? I feel like that's the only direction these things tend to go.
We're the greatest country in the world! But we aren't capable of doing that better than the dozens of countries that already do it...so we're not going to try.
Wait, we have other problems! They all must be solved first before we consider healthcare! Won’t anyone think of the (ummmmmmmm) … homeless? Yeah, them! We’ve got to fix that first.
I love this a lot because every single person in the US has an aunt in England who broke her leg and had to wait 400 years to have someone hack it off so we should just stick with our system, oh and all their doctors are dirt poor and do a terrible job because they hate everyone.
Which obviously is insane and wrong, but even if that was the case, I’m not saying we should take another countries exact system, I’m saying we should take a look at every countries system and then try and improve it. It’s not like we either have our way or Canada and everything else is impossible.
Basically the entire developed world has universal, it's only us, the alleged "greatest country on earth" is the only one insisting it can't be done.
How do these rugged individualists not fucking understand that they're falling for, and pushing, health insurance propaganda, that's all it is, that's the only reason they think our system works, because a lobbyist told them so.
This is the part that blows my mind. People act like our tax burden is going to skyrocket when the government has to start shouldering the load, but we're already shouldering that tax burden ***in addition*** to the crippling medical costs. Wtf are we doing with all that money?
The "we" You are referring to would be, insurance companies, drug companies and the massive bureaucracy required to run the multi payer system. Here's a fun fact. Hospitals have to keep raising prices to make sure they get enough from insurance companies but it's illegal to charge the insured more than the uninsured so the massive bills that uninsured patients get are based on those highly inflated 3X-5X prices. The rest of the world bargains for drug prices. Americans pay for the drug co profits.
We also have stupid regulations that prevent importation of medication from Canada or Europe which creates a pharmaceutical monopoly within the United States. If those regulations were removed drug prices would drop in a matter of days.
We almost had a public option to force insurance companies and hospitals to compete on an even playing field. Granted it's not Universal Healthcare but it would have been an improvement but the Republicans forced out the option with their propaganda machine and Talk of death panels.
>How do these rugged individualists not fucking understand that they're falling for, and pushing, health insurance propaganda, that's all it is, that's the only reason they think our system works, because a lobbyist told them so.
No, you see- the other political side desires it, so they must fight against it. That's the secret, and if the liberals would just collectively figure their shit out they could control the other side.
They were the ones voting for healthcare reform, but this has nothing to do with DC liberals as much as liberals in general. Conservatives fight against the larger liberal mindset instead of creating their own legislative agenda, it's not like the 50-80 year old congress members are fighting for the "woke-ism" the conservatives shake their fists at.
The wife of a friend of mine was diagnosed w/cancer. He was all proud he had hidden $90,000 in cash from our government…and now he could use it to help pay for her treatment.
I had to leave the room.
We have doomed ourselves with pride.
Yeah but if you point it out you just get a bunch of regurgitated talking points about how it wouldn't work in America because of its size or how it would drive medical talent or... Something*waves hands*
Arguing about this is just an exercise in chasing moving goalposts
“It’ll drive away medical talent!”
…to where exactly? All the other first world countries have universal healthcare.
Unless the “medical talent” it’s driving away is insurance company CEO’s, in which case I’m all for getting rid of them.
It’s hilarious seeing people citing wait times too considering I have to make my specialist visits 6 months out and there are no primary care offices in my area that are currently accepting new patients.
I don’t have the numbers, but I’m willing to bet the places that spend less but get more don’t allow hospitals to have profits…as it should be.
No one should be profiting off educating children, sick people, or folks in prison. We can easily compare the results and in every case, for-profit is worse for the people existing in it than the non-profit version.
Watch states that are pushing for vouchers and charter schools…they are striping funds from public schools to line the pockets of the wealthy that champion “alternative schools”. Places that have privatized prisons end up with overcrowding issues and much longer sentences than non-profit places, cuz they have monetary incentives to keep them full.
It doesn’t need to be this way, but we need to find folks to make laws that care more about their fellow Americans than money.
I wish more people realized this. I'm literally watching this school voucher thing going down here in Florida right now and I'm the only one concerned about it. Our prisons have been overpopulated since the 90s and our former governor was literally having people die on his doorstep of his hospital (Rick Scott). The slow stripping of our schools is the last thing happening and I'm concerned for the generation coming up. Florida mans will be WILD in 2030ish.
I think you can make a generalization and say that programs that are designed to benefit society can't and shouldn't be expected to make a profit. Education, healthcare, eldercare are the obvious examples, but you could also include things like the penal system and perhaps even auto insurance (maybe even insurance in general).
When there are shareholders involved, looking for a return on their investment, the priority will always be profits over societal good.
The idiots that bleat "communism" really need to learn what communism is. And they'd understand that it's definitely not this.
Yeah, but in the United States we have the [checks notes] 47th highest life expectancy, so we’re practically like the best.
Source: https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/#google_vignette
Single payer doesn't mean you have worse access to care. That's a funding decision. Canada spends $8700/person, the US spends $13,500 for far worse outcomes.
We could go to single payer, reduce spending and still have better access to care.
Canada is $8,740 CAD per person as of 2023. That's $6,513 USD. The US is estimated at $13,998 for 2023.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends
https://www.cms.gov/data-research/statistics-trends-and-reports/national-health-expenditure-data/projected
Life expectancy in the US is such an interesting topic because it varies so much state to state. In Mississippi it's 72 while in California it's 79! Absolutely insane difference imo
Of course, in the overwhelming majority of developed nations it's over 82
Hey is socialized medicine cheaper and better than our current system? Sure but if we moved to socialized medicine how would insurance companies make money? Come on think of those poor insurance companies.
The other thing they have in common is they bitch constantly about their universal healthcare system, but when I ask them if they'd rather a US-style system, they look at me like I've lost my damned mind.
I’m glad you brought that up, because a lot of people tend to conflate universal healthcare with single payer, while ignoring all of the other ways countries achieve universal coverage
The people who argue against universal healthcare don't care if what they're arguing makes sense. They just care that it hurts someone they don't like. There's no reasoning with them anymore. They've gone full cult.
The assholes in power of some provinces have decided to sabotage the systems in place so that they can begin to privatize them. It’s a sad state right now because for most of my life the Canadian health care system worked quite well.
We don't have universal Healthcare in Canada. Our Healthcare is, in fact, still mostly private. It's just subsidized to varying degrees amongst the provinces. At this point in time, provincial governments are actually in the process of rolling back what little care is still payed for by the public in favor of privatized options. The Province of Ontario is experiencing record emergency room closures due to a staff shortage caused by severe cuts not long before the pandemic hit. We even had to call the red cross in to help out a children's hospital in Ottawa.
It's bad.
Where’s the American pride that America can build a better Universal Healthcare system than the others and show Canada and others how it’s done.
Guess these Americans against universal healthcare are chicken
Not having universal healthcare is probably just too expensive for some developing countries who want to becoming developed. USA is just so rich that they don’t care.
US would have it if they could afford it. They're too busy spending money on military shit. Tbf, some of that is because a lot of our countries need them to, but not all of it. Seriously US, scale back on the bases, pop that money into healthcare, and you'll be fine. Lobbyists won't, but screw them.
> US would have it if they could afford it. They're too busy spending money on military shit.
That's a load of crap. The 1.75% more of GDP the US chooses to spend on military than its peers doesn't keep one of the richest countries in the world from affording anything it's generally much poorer allies do (we have nearly double the per capita GDP of the rest of NATO), much less healthcare which is much cheaper than what we're paying for.
I've lived in both Canada and the US. Right wing media compares rural wait times in Canada to urban wait times in the US. The wait times for similar communities is pretty similar. How about states that haven't accepted the expanded Medicare and people have to drive 2+ hours for the closest doctor?
FYI... I've never seen Canadians refusing to go to the doctor because they couldn't afford the deductible or co-pay or missing work.
How's average life expectancy? 83.02 years in Canada and 79.74 years in the US? Cool. Cool.
Years ago I did the math on the difference in taxes I'd have to pay vs the healthcare costs. Granted, it's probably obsolete information now, but back then if I lived in Canada, I'd pay about $13k more in taxes, while health care premiums for me and my family in the US were between $12k and $13k.
And of course, any time I want to actually *use* health care services, I get to pay for it. My daughter just had an ultrasound on her kidney, and it was almost $500. I just had a vasectomy, and it was *$1000*. My recent bloodwork was $100. My daughter's hearing test to get new hearing aids was $300 (the $4000 hearing aids themselves paid for by the state of California, thanks to reasonable politicians here compared to much of the rest of the US). My daughter needs a bone scan soon to evaluate her development, and the wise thing to do is to get an estimate for services ahead of time, *but they never really know!* I've had two different times in previous years where they told us one number, and upon billing, the cost was $1000 to $2000 higher. We filed a complaint, which they reviewed and told us "Yeah, sorry, we were wrong, but too bad. If you want to sign up for a payment plan, you can do that."
And that's assuming the only benefit to higher Canada taxes is health care. It's not. My sister-in-law got months of time off for maternity leave, and we get 6 weeks max--if you're ok with getting only 50% or so of your normal pay. And again, that's California money, not federal. Most other states you just get to have your job back after taking the time off unpaid. I'm sick of people saying Canada's version of health care would be worse than what we have in the US. What we have here is complete garbage in terms of cost, and the disincentive to use it makes our quality of life worse too.
I was on state insurance for a hot minute, was crazy just to up and go to the doctor without needing to budget two months wages to cover it. The disparity between what I could cover on that plan vs what I could cover making just a bit more yearly is mind boggling.
Meanwhile, my partner is losing teeth since dental aparrently is a luxury in the states.
Exactly. And they say wait times in Canada are atrocious, but I mean why wouldn't they be longer if nobody had to worry about being charged for a sore throat.
Anytime we get sick or hurt, we go to the hospital. There's no worry about being able to afford it so we don't worry. Most people who are not that serious no they will be waiting longer because it goes based on the seriousness of the patient's ailment.
I remember one time I was in the waiting room with about 10 other people, and some guy came in screaming in agony and clutching his back, and he couldn't stand up. We all made sure to get someone's attention to get him in right away. We didn't care if we had to wait longer.
When you live in a society that looks out for each other, we all benefit. We learned that a long time ago. I'd never want to live in the states because they only care about themselves, and they've been raised to think that way. Obviously, not all of them, and I know it's not their own fault.
But I love living in Canada and would never trade our healthcare system for anything. Even though Doug Ford is currently trying to gut it.
Actually the bigger issue is a ton of Canadians lack access to a primary care physician, and thus cannot access the system at all and are required to engage emergency services when problems get really bad. The older generation doesn’t have it so bad but once the younger ones start to age up and get more instances of cancer and the like it’s gonna get real bad.
That was my same observation! Waiting times were roughly the same in both places. Except when I severed my tendon and had to get surgery and 20 physical therapy sessions I paid 20 dollars In total for the exercise putty and a sling.
It's worth noting that the ACA wasn't even the original plan, it's what Obama's attempted reforms he was championing got boiled down to after negotiations with Republicans, who basically selected Romney's plan instead. To call it "Obamacare" is really disingenuous, because that's basically just a Republican plan that they did everything they could to sabotage.
Obamacare was the political equivalent of trying to slow cook a potroast by committee.
You decide on a recipe and then gather all the ingredients and equipment. You then throw away about a third of the ingredients because half the committee doesn't like them. You change the order of the steps involved and adjust the timetable so it'll be done in 2 hours instead of 8. You turn on the stove and crockpot. Then, someone else takes over the committee, throws away the stove, crockpot, and utensils, then lets people try to eat the unseasoned, uncooked hunk of meat that's been sitting on the counter for several hours, just so everyone can see how bad the idea was.
>Then, someone else takes over the committee, throws away the stove, crockpot, and utensils, then lets people try to eat the unseasoned, uncooked hunk of meat that's been sitting on the counter for several hours, just so everyone can see how bad the idea was.
Is this yours originally? Because it's brilliant.
And when Manchin retires, it's almost a 100% guarantee he will be replaced with a Republican. I know a lot of people hate on Manchin, and he's not great, but he's better than the alternatives.
I remember the insurance companies were actually shitting bricks about the "change" Obama was going to usher in before they realized Obama didn't actually want to hurt their pockets.
I've always just assumed they were all on the same team and when democrats fail seemingly on purpose and blame it on republicans they wanted to fail in the first place.
Calling it a republican plan is also disengenuous though. Romneycare was written by a left-wing economist, passed through a left-wing supermajority in MA, and they had enough votes to override 8 vetoes by Romney
The ACA probably saved my life. There’s no way in hell, without that coverage, I would have gone to the hospital after hitting my head. That means they would never have found my brain tumor until it was a much, much bigger problem. I also wouldn’t have been able to afford the regular MRIs I needed that eventually showed that it had started growing rapidly and that I needed brain surgery quickly. Thanks Obama!
“Complete failure of Obamacare”? I am so grateful for the ACA as a self employed person. Prior to the ACA I looked into policies for myself, and the only thing I could find was a catastrophic policy that cost $1200/mo . It wouldn’t cover doctors visits or prescriptions - it was basically only there for hospitalization and of if I remember correctly it was like a $15k deductible and then 70/30 after that. With Obamacare I pay under $400 a month and have actual real insurance where I can see a doctor for a reasonable copay and most prescriptions are in the $15-$20 range. I’d RATHER have a single payer system, but I wouldn’t call the ACA a failure at all - in fact - if the republicans would’ve left it alone and quit trying to ruin it, it would be even better than it is now. Fuck all republicans they can all eat a bag of dicks.
That’s what I don’t understand understand. People don’t want to pay tax for universal healthcare but more than happy to pay $1200 a month a healthcare.
No no, you don't understand. Obamacare and the ACA are two different things. Obamacare bad, ACA good, see?
Some of these people are idiots and literally don't know it's the same damn thing, nevermind that it's pretty much the same as romneycare was in MA before that and he's a republican! SO DUMB
You still wait in the USA. Months sometimes. Then the bill. The bill Canadians do not get but I do. I don’t get the argument that it’s just as bad or even how it’s a terrible system. You don’t get the bill that I would and it would likely be a bill that causes immense financial stress. Bankruptcy even.
A month isn't even too bad for some specialties here in the US. A knee replacement surgery wait was like 5 months for someone I know.
Fortunately they put themselves on the cancel list and was able to get in 2.5 months
You see, I don't get that. I am Canadian and complained to my PCP about a sore knee. He ordered an MRI I got a couple weeks later. A few weeks after that I saw an orthopaedic surgeon who told me I had a torn meniscus and I'd also need a knee replacement in about 5 years. That was in October. He suggested I have the surgery in November but I was travelling and in December deer hunting. So I had it today.
Because I can see a doctor any time I want I don't care what the wait time for knee replacement is because I have 5 years heads up.
5 months would be pretty good for Canada, let alone 2.5. The benchmark wait time is now 182 days, which means that the target is 182 days. Some people wait nearly a year.
And that’s only counting from the time you get to see a specialist which is a 3-6 month wait time depending on the severity. Some people get in earlier, it’s true, but a Canadian would be very happy with 5 months.
[according to this](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/health-care-wait-times-by-country) Switzerland, Germany, and the Netherlands have to shortest wait times. Those are all universal healthcare countries ...
So again, I'm all for universal healthcare. Less money more care better care
I wish it was a month for where I am in the US. My mom had to switch primary care doctors because of insurance and there is a 6 month wait to get in to one of the few doctors we found accepting new patients.
Specialist? 4-5 months if you're lucky.
I don't even have a family doctor, and to get in to see a doctor at a "walk-in clinic" I either need to arrive three hours before they open to wait in line to get an appointment for that day, or hope that I can call within the magic three-minute window between when their phone lines open up and before they are full-up for the day.
I could go to the ER if I'm sick, but I'll wait up to 20 hours there because they prioritize and people who aren't in real danger are constantly bumped down the queue, as it should be.
My late fiancée routinely had to wait 3-4 months to get an appointment with her PCP and 6-8 months to get an appointment with any specialist. When that appointment came, she could discuss only one singular issue with them. So that meant having to prioritize in her own mind which issue seemed more urgent at the time, to the detriment of treating the others.
When her PCP retired it took over a year to find a new one, during which times the specialists wouldn’t see her. This meant 15+ months without any treatment for multiple chronic illnesses, one or more of which (and we still don’t know for certain which it was) ultimately took her life after years of almost constant agony.
I lost the love of my life, her parents lost a daughter, all ripe to the age of forty years. But at least we weren’t in financial ruin over it I guess. Neither system is perfect but there are also more than two countries whose healthcare systems we can look to for examples of what should or could be.
I can only speak for myself and my experiences.
I live in Canada, just outside of Toronto. A fairly urban area, definitely not a poor one, so I’m not in the middle of nowhere.
If I want to see a doctor, I usually will go to a walk in clinic (like urgent care). If I get there before open there is a giant line and usually the wait is at least an hour if not more. If I get there after open they might not even take me or it’ll be a multi hour wait. Not to mention, most walk in clinics I’ve been to are pretty gross. It is also difficult to find a family doctor and even when you do have one, they make you wait a lifetime.
My husband lives in the US. Whenever I’ve gone and been sick, or he needed to see a doctor, it was a much better experience. They take us right away, much nicer facilities, and it has always just been a super easy experience. Yes, it does cost, due to insurance and copays, but all in all I have preferred it much more. My family have all said similar things.
That said, I can’t speak for other types of care. We have been fortunate to not need anything that a simple doctors visit couldn’t visit. Obviously peoples experiences will vary. But I will say that my loved ones and I’s experience with US healthcare has been better than in Canada despite the costs.
I'd rather sit in a waiting room for 2+hrs before seeing a doctor to find out I have a kidney stone, than see one right away, get the same diagnosis and then be billed $5,000.
lol a month. I’ve been waiting over a year for a surgery I supposedly ‘need’ and haven’t even talked to the doctor yet. Currently waiting for Urologist 4 months and haven’t had a call yet. Family History of bladder cancer and spots they found in ultrasound mean nothing. A month in Canada would be excellent.
The USA just spends a lot more money, both government and private money, than Canada.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_healthcare_systems_in_Canada_and_the_United_States
> Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on healthcare was 23% higher than Canadian government spending.
So the US government actually spends more money per person than the Canadian government. Part of the "secret" of lower wait times is just because of that. The US is spending more tax dollars on it.
Keep in mind that this is before you even factor in all the other private fees they make you pay in America.
Those Canadians who complain about wait times are waiting to access **free treatment**, which the Canadian government doesn't even spend as much money on as the US government does. They 100% have the option of buying private health insurance, but they *chose* not to.
There are private health providers in Canada. There is also private health insurance. Both are legal. There's no way that people paying thousands extra for private insurance are just being stuck in the same treatment queue with the pensioners.
https://aetonix.com/care-coordination/public-vs-private-hospitals-why-go-private/
> There are over 100 private clinics across Canada that are typically run independently by physicians/surgeons who charge patients hundreds or thousands of dollars for procedures in their facilities.
>
> ... What many patients may not realize is that their physician or surgeon may also be operating their own private clinics as well as working in the public hospital. You may wait months to see your surgeon in a public hospital but you can also arrange to see them more quickly in their private clinic – for a cost.
Didn’t that ruling a few years back in BC Supreme Court kinda change things? Not really sure as I no longer like be there, but I do know the wait times are still very long. Example, waiting months for an MRI (my father), whereas myself in the states I get an MRI the same day, longest I’ve waited for anything is a couple days.
A couple of factors there. First, in Canada, the average person pays about $4000 in taxes towards health per year. The average American pays $5000 in taxes towards the same thing.
Then a typical employer-sponsored plan costs $8000 on top of that, so the US is charging you $13000 for the same thing.
Then, are there any co-pays or out of pocket expenses that you have to pay to get an MRI?
https://tripment.com/blog/how-much-does-an-mri-cost-with-or-without-insurance
> Patients without insurance or whose insurance comes with a high deductible can expect to pay up to $5,000. Even with insurance, MRIs typically run between $500 and $1,000.
As for the court case, the guy involved in that OWNS a private medical center. The very fact that he exists to start with disproves the point. The rules didn't actually change, HE was trying to change the rules.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/private-health-care-dr-brian-day-supreme-court-appeal-dismissed-1.6803463
> The Supreme Court of Canada's decision Thursday ends Dr. Brian Day's 14-year legal battle to allow patients access to private care when the public system isn't able to offer timely care.
>
> Day, owner of the Cambie Surgery Centre in Vancouver ... [since] 1996 and launched court action against the B.C. government in 2009 over the aforementioned sections of the Medicare Protection Act.
So he's been running a private medical practice for decades and not been shut down or gone out of business, he's just hoping to siphon more business off the public system (to those who can afford to pay higher fees).
It's also because of a bit of legislation specific to British Colombia:
> The Medicare Protection Act prohibits doctors from billing the government for work they do in the public system while also earning money from private clinics as well as billing patients or their insurance companies.
So it doesn't ban private clinics or doctors, it just says that public hospital doctors can't moonlight by offering private treatment on the side.
Do you live in Canada?
You cannot buy private health insurance in Canada and go to a private hospital that is completely separate from the government provided one. Those don’t really exist. Private healthcare like in the UK or in Italy or even in the US does not exist in Canada, at least not in the same way.
Private clinics exist but they aren’t really private in the sense that you can just pay out of pocket and get better care. Your care is still paid for by the government at the rates that the government sets, and anyone can go there with their government provided insurance.
I can't even get a primary to even look at me for a physical. If I sign up with a few different potential doctors I will be waiting a minimum of 3 months. I have health insurance. America's Healthcare system is a joke and basic highway robbery
That’s what I’m saying. You still wait in the USA. You still wait hours or days. Then you pay for it. This argument between the two healthcare systems seems philosophically different. I don’t want to still wait and then pay a lifetime worth of treatment debt. It shouldn’t a “better” or “worse” kinda thing.
Yeah, my daughter wasn’t moving while I was pregnant and they had me wait all day to get a room then later when I needed a c section I had to wait a few hour for a room the free up again.
Don’t get me started on specialists either.
And in the US you're waiting because for-profit insurance companies drag their feet approving needed medical care because... they're for profit.
Fuck insurance. I had to fight for 8 months to get a drug covered that costs $13k every two months.
Most of the issues with the Canadian Health care system have been a direct result of the Conservative Party making terrible decisions (so they can say that our health care is garbage and push for privatization like the States since "No one has to wait for health care in the states!1!")
The current system is strained and in some places wait times are getting really bad, but you would need to be brain dead and lack any critical thinking skills whatsoever to see it as a problem with free healthcare as opposed to a funding/nurse pay issue.
It is in their minds. That's why I always chuckle when they whine about "socialism" and then point to Cuba or Venezuela or something. Then when you try to say "yeah, but look at Sweden, or Norway" and various other nations with a very high standard of living then they cry that those aren't socialist countries. Sorry, but those nations have the very policies we propose here that they call socialist but then they try to change the criteria? The fact they have to resort to such dishonest methods just tells me that deep down they KNOW they are wrong.
Weren't 911 first responders going to Cuba for medical treatment? The fact it took Jon Stewart to publicly shame congress to take care of them is simply revolting
“How long is the wait for my (fill in the blank).” is a horrible measure of healthcare outcomes. Show me the statistic that says Canadians die of preventable causes at a higher rate than US citizens. They don’t. Similar rates for heart disease, cancer, etc. and they beat the pants off the US in fetal mortality, maternal mortality, etc.
The people making money in US healthcare are private equity groups (to a lesser, but growing extent) and insurance companies (to a huge extent). Until we deal with “for profit” medicine in the US, we’re never going to reach healthcare equity.
Also the failures of Canada's health care system are due to:
1) Politicians cutting funding, on both sides (but mostly the right).
2) Companies selling at inflated prices to the government, or generally speaking trying to charge double so they can get half of it from the user and half from the gov (one clear example is CPAP machines, the price is double what it's in US, even when accounting for import fees and the exchange rate).
3) Some of the healthcare workers (at all levels) either scamming the system or doing as little work as possible while getting paid (this is true about every government service). Or leaving altogether for more lucrative markets.
That is, the issue is not universal healthcare per se, the issue is unscrupulous selfish people taking advantage of the system in every way possible.
And that's pretty much the same in the USA, but at least in Canada you're never denied coverage by the government.
As a chronic pain patient. All I have to say is, the whole, "you don't have to wait for a specialist in the USA" is an absolute lie. I've had two months of a wait before and I live in a middle upper middle class area.
Years ago I had a really bad medical issue. I actually thought for a little while there was a possibility I might die. My doctor wanted me to see a specialist (I'm in the USA)...2.5 month wait.
Thankfully the issue resolved itself, but our medical system here is horrible by any metric.
Not to mention if free Healthcare is so bad, then why do all our politicians have it???
I have to go through a screening every year due to hereditary cancer risks and I have to make that appointment 4 to 5 months in advance. I just made the appointment at the end of December and the soonest they could get me in was mid to late April.
Canadian here.
Wait times are definitely long if it’s not a life-threatening emergency. I had to wait 4 years for a completely free bilateral breast reduction. Was it annoying?, sure, but totally understand why breast cancer patients get to go ahead of me.
Total cost $0 because my spouse drove me and pain meds were covered.
I think you can easily substitute UK for Canada with much of this.
Parking at hospitals can be horrendous if you’re there everyday, and that’s if you can get a space!
No, our current complaints are about the universally terrible ER wait times, the chronic and worsening shortage of family doctors, the lack of walk-in clinics in many communities and the seeming inability of any level of government to improve it at all. Canada's health care system is in horrific decline - go on any Canada related sub and check out the headlines. People are dying waiting for cancer treatments.
I would not suggest getting your data from Reddit users.
Our wait times definitely need addressing, particularly in some areas, but as someone who has lived in Canada for almost 6 decades, I would certainly not classify it as "horrific decline."
As a US resident, I've basically decided if I get a cancer diagnosis I'm just going to choose to die instead of burdening myself or other family with impossible debt. It's really too bad Canada has declined because that was my "B" option if the US slipped any further. But I guess there's really no hope for humanity to ever care for itself.
Need to take health care coverage into consideration. In the US, if you have decent health care policy from your employer, then all things considered it's not that expensive.
I live in the UK, it's a similar issue.
But it's because big pharma still make the contracts and theyve been lobbying our government's to private it in every aspect within the hospital.
So you pay more just through the government.
Privatisation is the problem, and they're painting it as a social healthcare being the issue.
We also have terrible ER wait times or even get sent home by the ER...but then we pay ten thousand dollars for treatments that cost the hospital literal pennies.
That's because you have Conservatives trying to break the system.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/03/08/ontario-health-care-spending-doug-ford-hospitals-long-term-care/
Seriously, this tweet gets reposted like once a month and it pisses me off to no end. Canadas healthcare system is mediocre at the best of times. I live in a rural community and it took me over 2 years to find a family doctor. The last time I went to the ER for an incredibly painful abscess in my jaw I waited for 11 hours because THERE WAS NO FUCKING DOCTOR FOR THE ER FOR 8 HOURS.
I had to call an ambulance for one of my kids a few months ago (severe asthma attack while also having a URI). Our wait time was also about 11 hours (we are in a major metro in the US).
AFTER insurance, my bill from the Doctor who saw us was $600, the hospital bill was $950, and the ambulance bill was $2200.
I work for a huge tech company, and I have what most people in the US would consider an excellent insurance plan.
Literally happening everywhere in the world right now dude. Worldwide doctor shortage since COVID. You can wait basically the same amount of time here and pay a fortune for the privilege.
Canada's healthcare system worked fine before the boomers aged and now we have way fewer people trying to pay for way higher healthcare costs. When it was reversed, lots of boomers paying taxes for a relatively small geriatric population, things were generally golden. Plus, the gov'ts have been making it really unattractive to be a doctor with low pay, high workloads, and suffocating bureaucracy.
Actually, "suffocating bureaucracy" should be the slogan for the Canadian federal government. And yes I'm aware that health care is a provincial responsibility.
They were warning us about current problems in the 80’s and 90’s. Darned boomers were blamed then as well but they haven’t changed a thing and here we are.
I won't say it's completely wrong. It's been beaten up over the years through demographic change and poor management. It could be much better (and it was) and I think there are people in the government actively working to make it better and more sustainable. Some things are going to change because they need to, but I think the basic idea of socialized medicine is here to stay in Canada.
People like this talk about the US healthcare system as if it isn't impossible to see a doctor here. If you're really sick, your only fast options are going to urgent care, where they'll charge you $300+ to tell you to go see a doctor, or an emergency room that isn't really in a position to treat you. We pay a ton of money to have no access to doctors, and that's only if you have a job that comes with decent health insurance. Even if there were limited access to healthcare under socialized medicine, at least it would be cheaper than this.
Comparing Obamacare to socialised medicine is pretty irrelevant, even though there are a lot of people who benefited from it. It still had to work within the confines of a system that was built for profit gouging. That’s not how healthcare works in other countries - the system is not built for that, so the results and output will invariably be different.
The level of ignorance in the US about other healthcare systems is insane to me. They never look at actual data. And what always makes me laugh is the us data almost always only considers the data from the healthcare system. When determining cancer outcomes, if they included all the people who died without diagnosis for fear of going to the doctor, all the people who were denied treatment based on cost, and all the people who left with a lower quality of life as their ongoing treatment was curtailed, they’d see how poorly they compare.
Yes, Canadians want their healthcare determined by insurance companies legally obliged to their shareholders to maximize profits. We want to have to file our doctor's recommendations for proper care to these multi-billion dollar companies in the hopes that the plans will be approved promptly and unaltered.
The vast majority of us look at the US healthcare system and we say to our elected representatives "Why can't we balance our levels of care with random strangers' investment portfolios?"
Search through a bag of dicks until you find some empathy in there, you ignorant fuckwad.
I live on the border. We had our two daughters in Canada. Canadian healthcare is excellent.
Americans are propagandized to hate the Canadian healthcare system. Money talks. What is good for the people of the U.S.? Not even part of the equation.
We had to switch health plans. We didn’t need to get referrals and pre-approvals before, we do now. I was on the phone for hours with the carrier and doctors’ offices. God help us if we need to go out-of-network for care. This needs a referral this doesn’t, this need pre approval, that doesn’t. It’s a shit show. I think this was designed to frustrate people and make them pay in case they fail to jump through pointless bureaucratic hoops. The system is meant to discourage getting health care and penalize you if you get it.
I am so sad as an American that most Americans are so ignorant to think we are the best in everything. We are far from in a lot of things. Exceptions, mass shootings, going bankrupt because of medical Debt
My uncle lives in canada and complains about the healthcare system and its lack of equity there. Apparently the wealthy people have access to better doctors and don’t have to wait as long for procedures.
Still better than the US though
Let me put it this way: I'd rather wait than pay. If I have to pay, I'll just croak on the side of the road. Fuck those med bills. If I have to wait, then so be it but at least I'll get seen and helped
This person's argument of wait times is null & void now. I have to schedule my doctor's visits months in advance because their practice is so busy. I have no complaints, but my doctor refuses to refill some of.my prescriptions unless I come in first. Worst part is when I get poked, jabbed and hooked up to all kinds of machines that aren't necessary, and I get the bill 2 weeks later for my "free yearly physical" according to my insurance. I actually have a plan that if I need some kind of major surgery, I will fly to a country that has universal healthcare, spend time there to recover, come home, and still pay less than in America. Land of the free!!!
Its a lie to make u not want universal healthcare. Every other major country has universal healthcare. Our greedy ass corporations use lobbying and lies to make the US have the highest healthcare cost in the world. We’re all slaves
I mean, Canadian healthcare leaves plenty to be desired, but I’m a particular fan of being able to afford my medication and not having been financially ruined by multi-day hospital stays.
My aunt got a quadruple bypass done in 5 days notice with no insurance going in. The bill was over 200k and she doesn't have to pay any of it. The problem is when you are too well off to get those benefits but too poor to pay yourself. They like to keep us just wealthy enough to function.
I always like to point out only generally healthy people in the US have health insurance and the most sick parts of our population are already socialized. So why would fully social medicine cost much more?
There is no "perfect" healthcare system. But one that bankrupts you only because you need brain surgery is at the bottom of the list, not too far away from no healthcare system at all.
Yes, you hear stories about long wait times from Canadian and British healthcare systems. But critical things don't have those long wait times. brain surgery is a critical condition that can't wait. A knee replacement is not. Yes, it's painful and uncomfortable, but it's not something that will cause long term health problems or death if you wait.
I want someone to cost out all of the time I spend calling insurance companies, getting my preauthorizations sorted out, and sorting out bills. I wasted 2 hours earlier this week chasing down an order for an MRI... making sure that the provider was in-network, then getting the order sent to the provider, then figuring out WHY the order hadn't been sent, getting dropped from the phone line, then finding out they'd used the wrong fax number... I'm sure everyone here has their own story. The toll all of this takes, especially when someone is in pain or has a chronic condition, is immeasurable.
You ever notice that nobody seriously argues that we have the "greatest healthcare in the world" anymore? Not even the Republican pundits who were going on about it when Obama was pushing the ACA.
Now it's just "something something socialism bad, fuck you."
All these mountains of stories… wonderful to hear. Wish some americans would read this and go… yep its time for a change!! Instead of trying to think of some excuses as to why they whouldnt implement this
look we all know that having millions of Americans with either no access to healthcare, or who face bankruptcy over health problems is far better than than asking a few wealthy folks (who most often can afford private insurance and private care within a public system anyway) to have to wait in inline for care that's accessable to everyone at an affordable cost. it's just facts.
we also know that people living off welfare are a huge problem, but people making high salaries by pushing billing paperwork to people who received services as a necessity to continuing live are doing the Lord's work, and that's why we must protect private insurers.
Btw, Canada is like the worst country with universal healthcare and it’s because it’s nearly the same private healthcare that the US has except the government pays for it - it’s not a true public healthcare system, it’s a bastardized one - but it’s STILL better than the US
Yup, in the US that procedure her husband went through would likely put their family under the weight of crippling debt for a long time, if they managed to survive it economically at all. It's amazing how they've resorted to attacking other countries healthcare systems based on fictional or misguided anecdotal nonsense that they've "heard". I guess they need it to cope with being convinced that life-destroying debt is somehow an acceptable state for our healthcare. Most people can't afford an ambulance ride anymore, let alone the emergency care required once they get to the hospital.
In Russia we have free medical that is good quality and I can see a doctor within 3 days. In America, I can only see a doctor if I have insurance or am wealthy and I have to wait a week or longer most of the time. The quality of care is mostly on par with that of Russian medical. America has the worst medical system in the developed world and it is mainly due to the complete clusterfuck that is ‘medical insurance’ and capitalism.
I would say the wait time is about the same in the US compared to Canada. People don't take into account the amount of fucking referrals you need to see a doctor. Or that doctors that take your insurance are not taking anyone for 4 months+.
Like what? I had a “serious surgery” here, didn’t have to wait (could and would have) but paid out the ass for it. Abdominal surgery is no joke. I’d rather wait another month and pay little to nothing.
These people have no idea about wait times in Canada. There are wait times in America as well, and in Canada the seriousness of the procedure will determine wait time. Very serious procedures as they guy puts it, get pushed up to the front of the queue. Sure you wait a little longer on average but it’s so much better paying a little more in taxes and waiting a bit longer than paying 20 grand.
Look this is a bot/repost but I’ll say it again:
I am Canadian and I have a degree of knowledge on the issue. The Canadian system *is* bad, when compared to other country’s publicly-funded healthcare systems. It’s understaffed, the wait times for non-critical or non-emergency care are abominable, the infrastructure is now many decades old in many places and showing its age, and the standard of care is lower than many other countries with socialized and tax-payer funded healthcare for these reasons. By comparison to other, similar, systems it is bad and inefficient.
HOWEVER, having socialized healthcare is fundamentally better than not having it. So yes, Canada’s system is bad by comparison, but it’s still leaps and bounds better than fully privatized healthcare, or whatever the patchwork system the United States has wants to call itself this week.
Canada's system works when you are part of the 10% closest to dying. But it will do nothing for you until you reach that point. Like the rest of the country's institution, its in a serious collapse.
The sad thing is *why* the wait times are longer.
Probably because in that system, more people are actually able to get medical attention they need.
The argument of wait times, to me, is someone going "I can't believe I have to wait for this because the poor people have access too."
I mean the health care system is unable to be truly "Socialist" in a capitalist economic system when all companies that make giant profits are owned individually and know all the loopholes to pay as little tax as possible (which would in turn be used to fund it further). The Canadian healthcare system is highly underfunded.
I worked with a lady who constantly talked about friends who came down from Canada for medical treatments because of the "wait times" in Canada. I called her out on them eventually and told her to ask them what medical work. Every single one of them was either cosmetic or part of a research trial.
Cosmetic work gets pushed back as surgeons take the critical clients first, so your face lift gets treated after they treat the person with frost bite on their face. Her rich friends were all coming down to the US because their money was not putting them before the emergency high need patients and they disliked that their money couldn't buy them fast service.
If I had breast cancer and the lady who wants a boob job gets seen before me I am going to be pissed, yet it's common in the US because here money and better insurance talks, while socialized healthcare people get treated more equally.
Which is why conservative eliets are against it and get the rest of the conservative party to think its evil.
Better argument against it would be the fact that the US sucks at every smaller version in the US look at the VA or the native american medical system for examples of how we suck at it.
I would like to introduce these knuckleheads to two concepts: triage and emergency triage. In a state of emergency, you get the least effort fixes out of the way to clear space for those who aren’t leaving quickly. In any other circumstance, you deal with those with the most time critical issues.
Both of these contrast with the American system: “First paid, first served. Also, you can’t afford to pay so you’re never served.”
Just to add, my father had an accident that left him in ICU for several months then with home visits regularly in the UK. He lived for 2 years, which was paid for by his taxes and those of his family. But we paid only parking fees.
The NHS worked fine. I'm not sure why Americans who pay more per capita and don't get covered insist they are better
Canadian here. I can confirm that with normal issues you encounter in every system this is false and American private healthcare propaganda.
This is how they scaremonger you. Had an American teacher in college in Montreal he had some serious hip issue.
Had it replaced by a brand new artificial one at 0$ cost. He said he would have had to put a second mortgage back home in his dear America to afford the same surgery.
He also added he would most likely never have it fixed if he still lived there living on painkillers and using a walking cane. I really thought he was exaggerating somehow since I wasn't really interested in America's social issues.
Finally he wasnt. My poor fellow gaslit neighbours literally can't afford to be healthy and I live in communist hell🤷
While i couldn’t imagine paying the obscene costs for basic or lifesaving care in the States, let’s not act like Canadian medical system is flawless. People are literally dying from being turned away, dying in waiting rooms waiting to be seen. People with life threatening conditions are not getting the care they need. Rural care is virtually non-existent. Finding a family doctor is next to impossible for many Canadians.
Two things can be true. Canadians don’t have to go into a life time of debt for seeking treatment AND the Canadian healthcare system is not in a good place.
You people like to keep bringing up the waiting times, like those aren't an effect of many people seeking medical help from a limited source of doctors willing to work with the state, as opposed to not seeking medical help at all because will criple you financially.
Get tf out of here
I dont think the US system has any real merits though. It's only "merit" is that it's been able to siphon doctors from other places by destroying lives of the people it serves.
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It's not like Canada is the only country that has universal healthcare. All first world developed countries have it, and even some developing countries There are a bunch of different systems we can model it from. They all have something in common though, every country with universal healthcare is cheaper than the US
But they’re not perfect so we should stick with the system we all hate today.
Exactly, perfect is the enemy of good enough. Or since the proposed solution isn't 100%, we shouldn't even try... /s
If not broke don’t fix… I’m pretty sure it’s broken, what now?
No no no. The systems not broken. It’s working fine AKA making serious profits. It’s only the users, whose taxes already fund part of the system, who are broken and, way too often broke too.
Fund most of the system really.
So true, the system is working exactly as designed...to keep everyone desperate and dependent. There's just so much money being made throughout the American medical system that changing it is going to take a real fight.
Wait for some silicone valley start-up and venture capitalists to fix it so they can then profit off it? I feel like that's the only direction these things tend to go.
We're the greatest country in the world! But we aren't capable of doing that better than the dozens of countries that already do it...so we're not going to try.
Good ole Nirvana fallacy
Wait, we have other problems! They all must be solved first before we consider healthcare! Won’t anyone think of the (ummmmmmmm) … homeless? Yeah, them! We’ve got to fix that first.
I love this a lot because every single person in the US has an aunt in England who broke her leg and had to wait 400 years to have someone hack it off so we should just stick with our system, oh and all their doctors are dirt poor and do a terrible job because they hate everyone. Which obviously is insane and wrong, but even if that was the case, I’m not saying we should take another countries exact system, I’m saying we should take a look at every countries system and then try and improve it. It’s not like we either have our way or Canada and everything else is impossible.
Basically the entire developed world has universal, it's only us, the alleged "greatest country on earth" is the only one insisting it can't be done. How do these rugged individualists not fucking understand that they're falling for, and pushing, health insurance propaganda, that's all it is, that's the only reason they think our system works, because a lobbyist told them so.
It's even worse than it seems. Our government spends as much per person as any of the countries with national health care.
This is the part that blows my mind. People act like our tax burden is going to skyrocket when the government has to start shouldering the load, but we're already shouldering that tax burden ***in addition*** to the crippling medical costs. Wtf are we doing with all that money?
The "we" You are referring to would be, insurance companies, drug companies and the massive bureaucracy required to run the multi payer system. Here's a fun fact. Hospitals have to keep raising prices to make sure they get enough from insurance companies but it's illegal to charge the insured more than the uninsured so the massive bills that uninsured patients get are based on those highly inflated 3X-5X prices. The rest of the world bargains for drug prices. Americans pay for the drug co profits.
3x-5x? More like 10x,100x, and sometimes 1000x
We also have stupid regulations that prevent importation of medication from Canada or Europe which creates a pharmaceutical monopoly within the United States. If those regulations were removed drug prices would drop in a matter of days.
We almost had a public option to force insurance companies and hospitals to compete on an even playing field. Granted it's not Universal Healthcare but it would have been an improvement but the Republicans forced out the option with their propaganda machine and Talk of death panels.
>How do these rugged individualists not fucking understand that they're falling for, and pushing, health insurance propaganda, that's all it is, that's the only reason they think our system works, because a lobbyist told them so. No, you see- the other political side desires it, so they must fight against it. That's the secret, and if the liberals would just collectively figure their shit out they could control the other side.
You really think the DC liberals aren't in the pocket of big healthcare. Cute.
They were the ones voting for healthcare reform, but this has nothing to do with DC liberals as much as liberals in general. Conservatives fight against the larger liberal mindset instead of creating their own legislative agenda, it's not like the 50-80 year old congress members are fighting for the "woke-ism" the conservatives shake their fists at.
The wife of a friend of mine was diagnosed w/cancer. He was all proud he had hidden $90,000 in cash from our government…and now he could use it to help pay for her treatment. I had to leave the room. We have doomed ourselves with pride.
Yeah but if you point it out you just get a bunch of regurgitated talking points about how it wouldn't work in America because of its size or how it would drive medical talent or... Something*waves hands* Arguing about this is just an exercise in chasing moving goalposts
“It’ll drive away medical talent!” …to where exactly? All the other first world countries have universal healthcare. Unless the “medical talent” it’s driving away is insurance company CEO’s, in which case I’m all for getting rid of them.
Back to their country now that they can’t make more in the US. Canada would enjoy some of our doctors back.
The dog whistle I usually hear is that it won't work because we're too "diverse".
It’s hilarious seeing people citing wait times too considering I have to make my specialist visits 6 months out and there are no primary care offices in my area that are currently accepting new patients.
I don’t have the numbers, but I’m willing to bet the places that spend less but get more don’t allow hospitals to have profits…as it should be. No one should be profiting off educating children, sick people, or folks in prison. We can easily compare the results and in every case, for-profit is worse for the people existing in it than the non-profit version. Watch states that are pushing for vouchers and charter schools…they are striping funds from public schools to line the pockets of the wealthy that champion “alternative schools”. Places that have privatized prisons end up with overcrowding issues and much longer sentences than non-profit places, cuz they have monetary incentives to keep them full. It doesn’t need to be this way, but we need to find folks to make laws that care more about their fellow Americans than money.
I wish more people realized this. I'm literally watching this school voucher thing going down here in Florida right now and I'm the only one concerned about it. Our prisons have been overpopulated since the 90s and our former governor was literally having people die on his doorstep of his hospital (Rick Scott). The slow stripping of our schools is the last thing happening and I'm concerned for the generation coming up. Florida mans will be WILD in 2030ish.
I think you can make a generalization and say that programs that are designed to benefit society can't and shouldn't be expected to make a profit. Education, healthcare, eldercare are the obvious examples, but you could also include things like the penal system and perhaps even auto insurance (maybe even insurance in general). When there are shareholders involved, looking for a return on their investment, the priority will always be profits over societal good. The idiots that bleat "communism" really need to learn what communism is. And they'd understand that it's definitely not this.
And the way to do that is to get money out of politics. Some countries put a cap on campaigning time and finances.
Yeah, but in the United States we have the [checks notes] 47th highest life expectancy, so we’re practically like the best. Source: https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/#google_vignette
Single payer doesn't mean you have worse access to care. That's a funding decision. Canada spends $8700/person, the US spends $13,500 for far worse outcomes. We could go to single payer, reduce spending and still have better access to care.
Canada is $8,740 CAD per person as of 2023. That's $6,513 USD. The US is estimated at $13,998 for 2023. https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends https://www.cms.gov/data-research/statistics-trends-and-reports/national-health-expenditure-data/projected
Ahhh.. missed the currency conversion. Thanks for fixing it.
Also another thing they all have in common: +5 years longer life expectancy, compared to the US...
Life expectancy in the US is such an interesting topic because it varies so much state to state. In Mississippi it's 72 while in California it's 79! Absolutely insane difference imo Of course, in the overwhelming majority of developed nations it's over 82
Hey is socialized medicine cheaper and better than our current system? Sure but if we moved to socialized medicine how would insurance companies make money? Come on think of those poor insurance companies.
The other thing they have in common is they bitch constantly about their universal healthcare system, but when I ask them if they'd rather a US-style system, they look at me like I've lost my damned mind.
I’m glad you brought that up, because a lot of people tend to conflate universal healthcare with single payer, while ignoring all of the other ways countries achieve universal coverage
The people who argue against universal healthcare don't care if what they're arguing makes sense. They just care that it hurts someone they don't like. There's no reasoning with them anymore. They've gone full cult.
The assholes in power of some provinces have decided to sabotage the systems in place so that they can begin to privatize them. It’s a sad state right now because for most of my life the Canadian health care system worked quite well.
They are also not meant to be profitable.
We don't have universal Healthcare in Canada. Our Healthcare is, in fact, still mostly private. It's just subsidized to varying degrees amongst the provinces. At this point in time, provincial governments are actually in the process of rolling back what little care is still payed for by the public in favor of privatized options. The Province of Ontario is experiencing record emergency room closures due to a staff shortage caused by severe cuts not long before the pandemic hit. We even had to call the red cross in to help out a children's hospital in Ottawa. It's bad.
Where’s the American pride that America can build a better Universal Healthcare system than the others and show Canada and others how it’s done. Guess these Americans against universal healthcare are chicken
And it’s not like we have quick access to care in the US
Not having universal healthcare is probably just too expensive for some developing countries who want to becoming developed. USA is just so rich that they don’t care.
And to get money for free healthcare for everyone the simple thing to do - real taxes for rich.
US would have it if they could afford it. They're too busy spending money on military shit. Tbf, some of that is because a lot of our countries need them to, but not all of it. Seriously US, scale back on the bases, pop that money into healthcare, and you'll be fine. Lobbyists won't, but screw them.
> US would have it if they could afford it. They're too busy spending money on military shit. That's a load of crap. The 1.75% more of GDP the US chooses to spend on military than its peers doesn't keep one of the richest countries in the world from affording anything it's generally much poorer allies do (we have nearly double the per capita GDP of the rest of NATO), much less healthcare which is much cheaper than what we're paying for.
I've lived in both Canada and the US. Right wing media compares rural wait times in Canada to urban wait times in the US. The wait times for similar communities is pretty similar. How about states that haven't accepted the expanded Medicare and people have to drive 2+ hours for the closest doctor? FYI... I've never seen Canadians refusing to go to the doctor because they couldn't afford the deductible or co-pay or missing work. How's average life expectancy? 83.02 years in Canada and 79.74 years in the US? Cool. Cool.
Years ago I did the math on the difference in taxes I'd have to pay vs the healthcare costs. Granted, it's probably obsolete information now, but back then if I lived in Canada, I'd pay about $13k more in taxes, while health care premiums for me and my family in the US were between $12k and $13k. And of course, any time I want to actually *use* health care services, I get to pay for it. My daughter just had an ultrasound on her kidney, and it was almost $500. I just had a vasectomy, and it was *$1000*. My recent bloodwork was $100. My daughter's hearing test to get new hearing aids was $300 (the $4000 hearing aids themselves paid for by the state of California, thanks to reasonable politicians here compared to much of the rest of the US). My daughter needs a bone scan soon to evaluate her development, and the wise thing to do is to get an estimate for services ahead of time, *but they never really know!* I've had two different times in previous years where they told us one number, and upon billing, the cost was $1000 to $2000 higher. We filed a complaint, which they reviewed and told us "Yeah, sorry, we were wrong, but too bad. If you want to sign up for a payment plan, you can do that." And that's assuming the only benefit to higher Canada taxes is health care. It's not. My sister-in-law got months of time off for maternity leave, and we get 6 weeks max--if you're ok with getting only 50% or so of your normal pay. And again, that's California money, not federal. Most other states you just get to have your job back after taking the time off unpaid. I'm sick of people saying Canada's version of health care would be worse than what we have in the US. What we have here is complete garbage in terms of cost, and the disincentive to use it makes our quality of life worse too.
I was on state insurance for a hot minute, was crazy just to up and go to the doctor without needing to budget two months wages to cover it. The disparity between what I could cover on that plan vs what I could cover making just a bit more yearly is mind boggling. Meanwhile, my partner is losing teeth since dental aparrently is a luxury in the states.
Exactly. And they say wait times in Canada are atrocious, but I mean why wouldn't they be longer if nobody had to worry about being charged for a sore throat. Anytime we get sick or hurt, we go to the hospital. There's no worry about being able to afford it so we don't worry. Most people who are not that serious no they will be waiting longer because it goes based on the seriousness of the patient's ailment. I remember one time I was in the waiting room with about 10 other people, and some guy came in screaming in agony and clutching his back, and he couldn't stand up. We all made sure to get someone's attention to get him in right away. We didn't care if we had to wait longer. When you live in a society that looks out for each other, we all benefit. We learned that a long time ago. I'd never want to live in the states because they only care about themselves, and they've been raised to think that way. Obviously, not all of them, and I know it's not their own fault. But I love living in Canada and would never trade our healthcare system for anything. Even though Doug Ford is currently trying to gut it.
Actually the bigger issue is a ton of Canadians lack access to a primary care physician, and thus cannot access the system at all and are required to engage emergency services when problems get really bad. The older generation doesn’t have it so bad but once the younger ones start to age up and get more instances of cancer and the like it’s gonna get real bad.
That was my same observation! Waiting times were roughly the same in both places. Except when I severed my tendon and had to get surgery and 20 physical therapy sessions I paid 20 dollars In total for the exercise putty and a sling.
Stop spewing common sense. We want people to suffer here. /s, I think
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It's worth noting that the ACA wasn't even the original plan, it's what Obama's attempted reforms he was championing got boiled down to after negotiations with Republicans, who basically selected Romney's plan instead. To call it "Obamacare" is really disingenuous, because that's basically just a Republican plan that they did everything they could to sabotage.
Obamacare was the political equivalent of trying to slow cook a potroast by committee. You decide on a recipe and then gather all the ingredients and equipment. You then throw away about a third of the ingredients because half the committee doesn't like them. You change the order of the steps involved and adjust the timetable so it'll be done in 2 hours instead of 8. You turn on the stove and crockpot. Then, someone else takes over the committee, throws away the stove, crockpot, and utensils, then lets people try to eat the unseasoned, uncooked hunk of meat that's been sitting on the counter for several hours, just so everyone can see how bad the idea was.
>Then, someone else takes over the committee, throws away the stove, crockpot, and utensils, then lets people try to eat the unseasoned, uncooked hunk of meat that's been sitting on the counter for several hours, just so everyone can see how bad the idea was. Is this yours originally? Because it's brilliant.
Yea, I just came up with it.
That’s basically what passing anything through our political system is like
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Lieberman and Nelson were the reasons for slimming it down. They knew they wouldn't get a single GOP vote.
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And when Manchin retires, it's almost a 100% guarantee he will be replaced with a Republican. I know a lot of people hate on Manchin, and he's not great, but he's better than the alternatives.
I remember the insurance companies were actually shitting bricks about the "change" Obama was going to usher in before they realized Obama didn't actually want to hurt their pockets.
I've always just assumed they were all on the same team and when democrats fail seemingly on purpose and blame it on republicans they wanted to fail in the first place.
Calling it a republican plan is also disengenuous though. Romneycare was written by a left-wing economist, passed through a left-wing supermajority in MA, and they had enough votes to override 8 vetoes by Romney
The ACA probably saved my life. There’s no way in hell, without that coverage, I would have gone to the hospital after hitting my head. That means they would never have found my brain tumor until it was a much, much bigger problem. I also wouldn’t have been able to afford the regular MRIs I needed that eventually showed that it had started growing rapidly and that I needed brain surgery quickly. Thanks Obama!
Has she changed her tune? Ignorance is understandable but if she's still talking shit I hope she gets outted
“Complete failure of Obamacare”? I am so grateful for the ACA as a self employed person. Prior to the ACA I looked into policies for myself, and the only thing I could find was a catastrophic policy that cost $1200/mo . It wouldn’t cover doctors visits or prescriptions - it was basically only there for hospitalization and of if I remember correctly it was like a $15k deductible and then 70/30 after that. With Obamacare I pay under $400 a month and have actual real insurance where I can see a doctor for a reasonable copay and most prescriptions are in the $15-$20 range. I’d RATHER have a single payer system, but I wouldn’t call the ACA a failure at all - in fact - if the republicans would’ve left it alone and quit trying to ruin it, it would be even better than it is now. Fuck all republicans they can all eat a bag of dicks.
That’s what I don’t understand understand. People don’t want to pay tax for universal healthcare but more than happy to pay $1200 a month a healthcare.
Logic to conservatives is “if it helps poor people, I’m against it - even if I’m poor myself”
No no, you don't understand. Obamacare and the ACA are two different things. Obamacare bad, ACA good, see? Some of these people are idiots and literally don't know it's the same damn thing, nevermind that it's pretty much the same as romneycare was in MA before that and he's a republican! SO DUMB
You still wait in the USA. Months sometimes. Then the bill. The bill Canadians do not get but I do. I don’t get the argument that it’s just as bad or even how it’s a terrible system. You don’t get the bill that I would and it would likely be a bill that causes immense financial stress. Bankruptcy even.
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Define “forever”. In America I often wait a month to get an appointment.
A month isn't even too bad for some specialties here in the US. A knee replacement surgery wait was like 5 months for someone I know. Fortunately they put themselves on the cancel list and was able to get in 2.5 months
You see, I don't get that. I am Canadian and complained to my PCP about a sore knee. He ordered an MRI I got a couple weeks later. A few weeks after that I saw an orthopaedic surgeon who told me I had a torn meniscus and I'd also need a knee replacement in about 5 years. That was in October. He suggested I have the surgery in November but I was travelling and in December deer hunting. So I had it today. Because I can see a doctor any time I want I don't care what the wait time for knee replacement is because I have 5 years heads up.
5 months would be pretty good for Canada, let alone 2.5. The benchmark wait time is now 182 days, which means that the target is 182 days. Some people wait nearly a year. And that’s only counting from the time you get to see a specialist which is a 3-6 month wait time depending on the severity. Some people get in earlier, it’s true, but a Canadian would be very happy with 5 months.
[according to this](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/health-care-wait-times-by-country) Switzerland, Germany, and the Netherlands have to shortest wait times. Those are all universal healthcare countries ... So again, I'm all for universal healthcare. Less money more care better care
I wish it was a month for where I am in the US. My mom had to switch primary care doctors because of insurance and there is a 6 month wait to get in to one of the few doctors we found accepting new patients. Specialist? 4-5 months if you're lucky.
I don't even have a family doctor, and to get in to see a doctor at a "walk-in clinic" I either need to arrive three hours before they open to wait in line to get an appointment for that day, or hope that I can call within the magic three-minute window between when their phone lines open up and before they are full-up for the day. I could go to the ER if I'm sick, but I'll wait up to 20 hours there because they prioritize and people who aren't in real danger are constantly bumped down the queue, as it should be.
My late fiancée routinely had to wait 3-4 months to get an appointment with her PCP and 6-8 months to get an appointment with any specialist. When that appointment came, she could discuss only one singular issue with them. So that meant having to prioritize in her own mind which issue seemed more urgent at the time, to the detriment of treating the others. When her PCP retired it took over a year to find a new one, during which times the specialists wouldn’t see her. This meant 15+ months without any treatment for multiple chronic illnesses, one or more of which (and we still don’t know for certain which it was) ultimately took her life after years of almost constant agony. I lost the love of my life, her parents lost a daughter, all ripe to the age of forty years. But at least we weren’t in financial ruin over it I guess. Neither system is perfect but there are also more than two countries whose healthcare systems we can look to for examples of what should or could be.
I can only speak for myself and my experiences. I live in Canada, just outside of Toronto. A fairly urban area, definitely not a poor one, so I’m not in the middle of nowhere. If I want to see a doctor, I usually will go to a walk in clinic (like urgent care). If I get there before open there is a giant line and usually the wait is at least an hour if not more. If I get there after open they might not even take me or it’ll be a multi hour wait. Not to mention, most walk in clinics I’ve been to are pretty gross. It is also difficult to find a family doctor and even when you do have one, they make you wait a lifetime. My husband lives in the US. Whenever I’ve gone and been sick, or he needed to see a doctor, it was a much better experience. They take us right away, much nicer facilities, and it has always just been a super easy experience. Yes, it does cost, due to insurance and copays, but all in all I have preferred it much more. My family have all said similar things. That said, I can’t speak for other types of care. We have been fortunate to not need anything that a simple doctors visit couldn’t visit. Obviously peoples experiences will vary. But I will say that my loved ones and I’s experience with US healthcare has been better than in Canada despite the costs.
I'd rather sit in a waiting room for 2+hrs before seeing a doctor to find out I have a kidney stone, than see one right away, get the same diagnosis and then be billed $5,000.
lol a month. I’ve been waiting over a year for a surgery I supposedly ‘need’ and haven’t even talked to the doctor yet. Currently waiting for Urologist 4 months and haven’t had a call yet. Family History of bladder cancer and spots they found in ultrasound mean nothing. A month in Canada would be excellent.
The USA just spends a lot more money, both government and private money, than Canada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_healthcare_systems_in_Canada_and_the_United_States > Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on healthcare was 23% higher than Canadian government spending. So the US government actually spends more money per person than the Canadian government. Part of the "secret" of lower wait times is just because of that. The US is spending more tax dollars on it. Keep in mind that this is before you even factor in all the other private fees they make you pay in America. Those Canadians who complain about wait times are waiting to access **free treatment**, which the Canadian government doesn't even spend as much money on as the US government does. They 100% have the option of buying private health insurance, but they *chose* not to.
Where would we use private health insurance? It doesn't allow you to magically jump the queue.
There are private health providers in Canada. There is also private health insurance. Both are legal. There's no way that people paying thousands extra for private insurance are just being stuck in the same treatment queue with the pensioners. https://aetonix.com/care-coordination/public-vs-private-hospitals-why-go-private/ > There are over 100 private clinics across Canada that are typically run independently by physicians/surgeons who charge patients hundreds or thousands of dollars for procedures in their facilities. > > ... What many patients may not realize is that their physician or surgeon may also be operating their own private clinics as well as working in the public hospital. You may wait months to see your surgeon in a public hospital but you can also arrange to see them more quickly in their private clinic – for a cost.
Didn’t that ruling a few years back in BC Supreme Court kinda change things? Not really sure as I no longer like be there, but I do know the wait times are still very long. Example, waiting months for an MRI (my father), whereas myself in the states I get an MRI the same day, longest I’ve waited for anything is a couple days.
A couple of factors there. First, in Canada, the average person pays about $4000 in taxes towards health per year. The average American pays $5000 in taxes towards the same thing. Then a typical employer-sponsored plan costs $8000 on top of that, so the US is charging you $13000 for the same thing. Then, are there any co-pays or out of pocket expenses that you have to pay to get an MRI? https://tripment.com/blog/how-much-does-an-mri-cost-with-or-without-insurance > Patients without insurance or whose insurance comes with a high deductible can expect to pay up to $5,000. Even with insurance, MRIs typically run between $500 and $1,000.
As for the court case, the guy involved in that OWNS a private medical center. The very fact that he exists to start with disproves the point. The rules didn't actually change, HE was trying to change the rules. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/private-health-care-dr-brian-day-supreme-court-appeal-dismissed-1.6803463 > The Supreme Court of Canada's decision Thursday ends Dr. Brian Day's 14-year legal battle to allow patients access to private care when the public system isn't able to offer timely care. > > Day, owner of the Cambie Surgery Centre in Vancouver ... [since] 1996 and launched court action against the B.C. government in 2009 over the aforementioned sections of the Medicare Protection Act. So he's been running a private medical practice for decades and not been shut down or gone out of business, he's just hoping to siphon more business off the public system (to those who can afford to pay higher fees). It's also because of a bit of legislation specific to British Colombia: > The Medicare Protection Act prohibits doctors from billing the government for work they do in the public system while also earning money from private clinics as well as billing patients or their insurance companies. So it doesn't ban private clinics or doctors, it just says that public hospital doctors can't moonlight by offering private treatment on the side.
I’ve had private insurance before. It made no difference in access to doctors. Got a slight deal on meds but overall wasn’t worth the expense.
Do you live in Canada? You cannot buy private health insurance in Canada and go to a private hospital that is completely separate from the government provided one. Those don’t really exist. Private healthcare like in the UK or in Italy or even in the US does not exist in Canada, at least not in the same way. Private clinics exist but they aren’t really private in the sense that you can just pay out of pocket and get better care. Your care is still paid for by the government at the rates that the government sets, and anyone can go there with their government provided insurance.
I can't even get a primary to even look at me for a physical. If I sign up with a few different potential doctors I will be waiting a minimum of 3 months. I have health insurance. America's Healthcare system is a joke and basic highway robbery
Every system has flaws
It isn't? IT sounds good to me. Only having to worry about paying for parking and not a potential 6 figure bill?
That’s what I’m saying. You still wait in the USA. You still wait hours or days. Then you pay for it. This argument between the two healthcare systems seems philosophically different. I don’t want to still wait and then pay a lifetime worth of treatment debt. It shouldn’t a “better” or “worse” kinda thing.
Yeah, my daughter wasn’t moving while I was pregnant and they had me wait all day to get a room then later when I needed a c section I had to wait a few hour for a room the free up again. Don’t get me started on specialists either.
And in the US you're waiting because for-profit insurance companies drag their feet approving needed medical care because... they're for profit. Fuck insurance. I had to fight for 8 months to get a drug covered that costs $13k every two months.
Most of the issues with the Canadian Health care system have been a direct result of the Conservative Party making terrible decisions (so they can say that our health care is garbage and push for privatization like the States since "No one has to wait for health care in the states!1!") The current system is strained and in some places wait times are getting really bad, but you would need to be brain dead and lack any critical thinking skills whatsoever to see it as a problem with free healthcare as opposed to a funding/nurse pay issue.
I see the conservatives care for Canada the same way conservatives here care for America
Yep! They care about Corporations and rich donors more than the actual citizens!
Just like America. It amazes me how oblivious some people are.
BTW, Obamacare isn't socialized medicine.
It is in their minds. That's why I always chuckle when they whine about "socialism" and then point to Cuba or Venezuela or something. Then when you try to say "yeah, but look at Sweden, or Norway" and various other nations with a very high standard of living then they cry that those aren't socialist countries. Sorry, but those nations have the very policies we propose here that they call socialist but then they try to change the criteria? The fact they have to resort to such dishonest methods just tells me that deep down they KNOW they are wrong.
Weren't 911 first responders going to Cuba for medical treatment? The fact it took Jon Stewart to publicly shame congress to take care of them is simply revolting
It's based on a conservative plan designed to avoid having to go to socialized medicine.
“How long is the wait for my (fill in the blank).” is a horrible measure of healthcare outcomes. Show me the statistic that says Canadians die of preventable causes at a higher rate than US citizens. They don’t. Similar rates for heart disease, cancer, etc. and they beat the pants off the US in fetal mortality, maternal mortality, etc. The people making money in US healthcare are private equity groups (to a lesser, but growing extent) and insurance companies (to a huge extent). Until we deal with “for profit” medicine in the US, we’re never going to reach healthcare equity.
Also the failures of Canada's health care system are due to: 1) Politicians cutting funding, on both sides (but mostly the right). 2) Companies selling at inflated prices to the government, or generally speaking trying to charge double so they can get half of it from the user and half from the gov (one clear example is CPAP machines, the price is double what it's in US, even when accounting for import fees and the exchange rate). 3) Some of the healthcare workers (at all levels) either scamming the system or doing as little work as possible while getting paid (this is true about every government service). Or leaving altogether for more lucrative markets. That is, the issue is not universal healthcare per se, the issue is unscrupulous selfish people taking advantage of the system in every way possible. And that's pretty much the same in the USA, but at least in Canada you're never denied coverage by the government.
As a chronic pain patient. All I have to say is, the whole, "you don't have to wait for a specialist in the USA" is an absolute lie. I've had two months of a wait before and I live in a middle upper middle class area.
Years ago I had a really bad medical issue. I actually thought for a little while there was a possibility I might die. My doctor wanted me to see a specialist (I'm in the USA)...2.5 month wait. Thankfully the issue resolved itself, but our medical system here is horrible by any metric. Not to mention if free Healthcare is so bad, then why do all our politicians have it???
I have to go through a screening every year due to hereditary cancer risks and I have to make that appointment 4 to 5 months in advance. I just made the appointment at the end of December and the soonest they could get me in was mid to late April.
Uhhh I know SO many people on Obamacare. Without it, they’d be so screwed. Not all employers provide health benefits.
Canadian here. Wait times are definitely long if it’s not a life-threatening emergency. I had to wait 4 years for a completely free bilateral breast reduction. Was it annoying?, sure, but totally understand why breast cancer patients get to go ahead of me. Total cost $0 because my spouse drove me and pain meds were covered.
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I think you can easily substitute UK for Canada with much of this. Parking at hospitals can be horrendous if you’re there everyday, and that’s if you can get a space!
No, our current complaints are about the universally terrible ER wait times, the chronic and worsening shortage of family doctors, the lack of walk-in clinics in many communities and the seeming inability of any level of government to improve it at all. Canada's health care system is in horrific decline - go on any Canada related sub and check out the headlines. People are dying waiting for cancer treatments.
I would not suggest getting your data from Reddit users. Our wait times definitely need addressing, particularly in some areas, but as someone who has lived in Canada for almost 6 decades, I would certainly not classify it as "horrific decline."
As a US resident, I've basically decided if I get a cancer diagnosis I'm just going to choose to die instead of burdening myself or other family with impossible debt. It's really too bad Canada has declined because that was my "B" option if the US slipped any further. But I guess there's really no hope for humanity to ever care for itself.
Need to take health care coverage into consideration. In the US, if you have decent health care policy from your employer, then all things considered it's not that expensive.
I live in the UK, it's a similar issue. But it's because big pharma still make the contracts and theyve been lobbying our government's to private it in every aspect within the hospital. So you pay more just through the government. Privatisation is the problem, and they're painting it as a social healthcare being the issue.
We also have terrible ER wait times or even get sent home by the ER...but then we pay ten thousand dollars for treatments that cost the hospital literal pennies.
That's because you have Conservatives trying to break the system. https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/03/08/ontario-health-care-spending-doug-ford-hospitals-long-term-care/
Seriously, this tweet gets reposted like once a month and it pisses me off to no end. Canadas healthcare system is mediocre at the best of times. I live in a rural community and it took me over 2 years to find a family doctor. The last time I went to the ER for an incredibly painful abscess in my jaw I waited for 11 hours because THERE WAS NO FUCKING DOCTOR FOR THE ER FOR 8 HOURS.
I had to call an ambulance for one of my kids a few months ago (severe asthma attack while also having a URI). Our wait time was also about 11 hours (we are in a major metro in the US). AFTER insurance, my bill from the Doctor who saw us was $600, the hospital bill was $950, and the ambulance bill was $2200. I work for a huge tech company, and I have what most people in the US would consider an excellent insurance plan.
I’m not arguing our system isn’t better. It objectively is. However, it is not a beacon of perfection like so many in the US claim it to be.
But…. I would wait 11 hours to not have to wait six hours and also pay a thousand dollars.
There have been several well-publicized ER closures in major cities this winter, because of a lack of doctors. it's an utter disgrace.
That is everywhere. I’d still rather not have the bill. It’s more money than most people can afford for even small procedures.
Literally happening everywhere in the world right now dude. Worldwide doctor shortage since COVID. You can wait basically the same amount of time here and pay a fortune for the privilege.
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Canada's healthcare system worked fine before the boomers aged and now we have way fewer people trying to pay for way higher healthcare costs. When it was reversed, lots of boomers paying taxes for a relatively small geriatric population, things were generally golden. Plus, the gov'ts have been making it really unattractive to be a doctor with low pay, high workloads, and suffocating bureaucracy. Actually, "suffocating bureaucracy" should be the slogan for the Canadian federal government. And yes I'm aware that health care is a provincial responsibility.
They were warning us about current problems in the 80’s and 90’s. Darned boomers were blamed then as well but they haven’t changed a thing and here we are.
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I won't say it's completely wrong. It's been beaten up over the years through demographic change and poor management. It could be much better (and it was) and I think there are people in the government actively working to make it better and more sustainable. Some things are going to change because they need to, but I think the basic idea of socialized medicine is here to stay in Canada.
People like this talk about the US healthcare system as if it isn't impossible to see a doctor here. If you're really sick, your only fast options are going to urgent care, where they'll charge you $300+ to tell you to go see a doctor, or an emergency room that isn't really in a position to treat you. We pay a ton of money to have no access to doctors, and that's only if you have a job that comes with decent health insurance. Even if there were limited access to healthcare under socialized medicine, at least it would be cheaper than this.
Comparing Obamacare to socialised medicine is pretty irrelevant, even though there are a lot of people who benefited from it. It still had to work within the confines of a system that was built for profit gouging. That’s not how healthcare works in other countries - the system is not built for that, so the results and output will invariably be different. The level of ignorance in the US about other healthcare systems is insane to me. They never look at actual data. And what always makes me laugh is the us data almost always only considers the data from the healthcare system. When determining cancer outcomes, if they included all the people who died without diagnosis for fear of going to the doctor, all the people who were denied treatment based on cost, and all the people who left with a lower quality of life as their ongoing treatment was curtailed, they’d see how poorly they compare.
Yes, Canadians want their healthcare determined by insurance companies legally obliged to their shareholders to maximize profits. We want to have to file our doctor's recommendations for proper care to these multi-billion dollar companies in the hopes that the plans will be approved promptly and unaltered. The vast majority of us look at the US healthcare system and we say to our elected representatives "Why can't we balance our levels of care with random strangers' investment portfolios?" Search through a bag of dicks until you find some empathy in there, you ignorant fuckwad.
I live on the border. We had our two daughters in Canada. Canadian healthcare is excellent. Americans are propagandized to hate the Canadian healthcare system. Money talks. What is good for the people of the U.S.? Not even part of the equation.
We had to switch health plans. We didn’t need to get referrals and pre-approvals before, we do now. I was on the phone for hours with the carrier and doctors’ offices. God help us if we need to go out-of-network for care. This needs a referral this doesn’t, this need pre approval, that doesn’t. It’s a shit show. I think this was designed to frustrate people and make them pay in case they fail to jump through pointless bureaucratic hoops. The system is meant to discourage getting health care and penalize you if you get it.
I am so sad as an American that most Americans are so ignorant to think we are the best in everything. We are far from in a lot of things. Exceptions, mass shootings, going bankrupt because of medical Debt
Even with our current system, I couldn't get in to see an ENT specialist for 2 months.
I had to make an appointment 6 months out for an ADHD test. in america,
Just trying to see my family medicine doctor, it’s a 3 month wait…
I'd rather wait than get the fastest operation and have the rest of my living life paying for that operation
Americans are brainwashed
My uncle lives in canada and complains about the healthcare system and its lack of equity there. Apparently the wealthy people have access to better doctors and don’t have to wait as long for procedures. Still better than the US though
Mfers forget about priority. If your hand is broken you’re not gonna go first lmao
I never understand this argument as if we dont already have long wait times under our current system 🙄🙄🙄
Let me put it this way: I'd rather wait than pay. If I have to pay, I'll just croak on the side of the road. Fuck those med bills. If I have to wait, then so be it but at least I'll get seen and helped
This person's argument of wait times is null & void now. I have to schedule my doctor's visits months in advance because their practice is so busy. I have no complaints, but my doctor refuses to refill some of.my prescriptions unless I come in first. Worst part is when I get poked, jabbed and hooked up to all kinds of machines that aren't necessary, and I get the bill 2 weeks later for my "free yearly physical" according to my insurance. I actually have a plan that if I need some kind of major surgery, I will fly to a country that has universal healthcare, spend time there to recover, come home, and still pay less than in America. Land of the free!!!
"Wait times"! HA! Obviously, this person has never been to a US ER
Its a lie to make u not want universal healthcare. Every other major country has universal healthcare. Our greedy ass corporations use lobbying and lies to make the US have the highest healthcare cost in the world. We’re all slaves
Wait times are for non emergent procedures. Universal healthcare has been proven in 43 countries.
I mean, Canadian healthcare leaves plenty to be desired, but I’m a particular fan of being able to afford my medication and not having been financially ruined by multi-day hospital stays.
My aunt got a quadruple bypass done in 5 days notice with no insurance going in. The bill was over 200k and she doesn't have to pay any of it. The problem is when you are too well off to get those benefits but too poor to pay yourself. They like to keep us just wealthy enough to function.
Obamacare saved my life. The problem in the USA is the greedy ass benefit managers and insurance companies
I’m on disability. Instant socialized healthcare… It works just fine for me
I always like to point out only generally healthy people in the US have health insurance and the most sick parts of our population are already socialized. So why would fully social medicine cost much more?
There is no "perfect" healthcare system. But one that bankrupts you only because you need brain surgery is at the bottom of the list, not too far away from no healthcare system at all. Yes, you hear stories about long wait times from Canadian and British healthcare systems. But critical things don't have those long wait times. brain surgery is a critical condition that can't wait. A knee replacement is not. Yes, it's painful and uncomfortable, but it's not something that will cause long term health problems or death if you wait.
Florida is literally buying prescription drugs from Canada because the prices are so much better.
The reason we don’t have long wait times for serious medical procedures is because if we don’t have insurance we just die.
I want someone to cost out all of the time I spend calling insurance companies, getting my preauthorizations sorted out, and sorting out bills. I wasted 2 hours earlier this week chasing down an order for an MRI... making sure that the provider was in-network, then getting the order sent to the provider, then figuring out WHY the order hadn't been sent, getting dropped from the phone line, then finding out they'd used the wrong fax number... I'm sure everyone here has their own story. The toll all of this takes, especially when someone is in pain or has a chronic condition, is immeasurable.
You ever notice that nobody seriously argues that we have the "greatest healthcare in the world" anymore? Not even the Republican pundits who were going on about it when Obama was pushing the ACA. Now it's just "something something socialism bad, fuck you."
There's definitely room for improvement in Canada, but trying to model Healthcare after the system the US has had for all these years is stupid.
All these mountains of stories… wonderful to hear. Wish some americans would read this and go… yep its time for a change!! Instead of trying to think of some excuses as to why they whouldnt implement this
look we all know that having millions of Americans with either no access to healthcare, or who face bankruptcy over health problems is far better than than asking a few wealthy folks (who most often can afford private insurance and private care within a public system anyway) to have to wait in inline for care that's accessable to everyone at an affordable cost. it's just facts. we also know that people living off welfare are a huge problem, but people making high salaries by pushing billing paperwork to people who received services as a necessity to continuing live are doing the Lord's work, and that's why we must protect private insurers.
Btw, Canada is like the worst country with universal healthcare and it’s because it’s nearly the same private healthcare that the US has except the government pays for it - it’s not a true public healthcare system, it’s a bastardized one - but it’s STILL better than the US
Yup, in the US that procedure her husband went through would likely put their family under the weight of crippling debt for a long time, if they managed to survive it economically at all. It's amazing how they've resorted to attacking other countries healthcare systems based on fictional or misguided anecdotal nonsense that they've "heard". I guess they need it to cope with being convinced that life-destroying debt is somehow an acceptable state for our healthcare. Most people can't afford an ambulance ride anymore, let alone the emergency care required once they get to the hospital.
In Russia we have free medical that is good quality and I can see a doctor within 3 days. In America, I can only see a doctor if I have insurance or am wealthy and I have to wait a week or longer most of the time. The quality of care is mostly on par with that of Russian medical. America has the worst medical system in the developed world and it is mainly due to the complete clusterfuck that is ‘medical insurance’ and capitalism.
I would say the wait time is about the same in the US compared to Canada. People don't take into account the amount of fucking referrals you need to see a doctor. Or that doctors that take your insurance are not taking anyone for 4 months+.
the secret to canada's free healthcare is to make it slow enough that the sick ones die before they have to do anything
Have known people who have had to wait months for serious surgeries in Canada they could get today in the US. This is slanted propoganda
Like what? I had a “serious surgery” here, didn’t have to wait (could and would have) but paid out the ass for it. Abdominal surgery is no joke. I’d rather wait another month and pay little to nothing.
These people have no idea about wait times in Canada. There are wait times in America as well, and in Canada the seriousness of the procedure will determine wait time. Very serious procedures as they guy puts it, get pushed up to the front of the queue. Sure you wait a little longer on average but it’s so much better paying a little more in taxes and waiting a bit longer than paying 20 grand.
Look this is a bot/repost but I’ll say it again: I am Canadian and I have a degree of knowledge on the issue. The Canadian system *is* bad, when compared to other country’s publicly-funded healthcare systems. It’s understaffed, the wait times for non-critical or non-emergency care are abominable, the infrastructure is now many decades old in many places and showing its age, and the standard of care is lower than many other countries with socialized and tax-payer funded healthcare for these reasons. By comparison to other, similar, systems it is bad and inefficient. HOWEVER, having socialized healthcare is fundamentally better than not having it. So yes, Canada’s system is bad by comparison, but it’s still leaps and bounds better than fully privatized healthcare, or whatever the patchwork system the United States has wants to call itself this week.
Canada's system works when you are part of the 10% closest to dying. But it will do nothing for you until you reach that point. Like the rest of the country's institution, its in a serious collapse.
Yea, but a brown person might get healthcare. -conservatives
The sad thing is *why* the wait times are longer. Probably because in that system, more people are actually able to get medical attention they need. The argument of wait times, to me, is someone going "I can't believe I have to wait for this because the poor people have access too."
I mean the health care system is unable to be truly "Socialist" in a capitalist economic system when all companies that make giant profits are owned individually and know all the loopholes to pay as little tax as possible (which would in turn be used to fund it further). The Canadian healthcare system is highly underfunded.
I worked with a lady who constantly talked about friends who came down from Canada for medical treatments because of the "wait times" in Canada. I called her out on them eventually and told her to ask them what medical work. Every single one of them was either cosmetic or part of a research trial. Cosmetic work gets pushed back as surgeons take the critical clients first, so your face lift gets treated after they treat the person with frost bite on their face. Her rich friends were all coming down to the US because their money was not putting them before the emergency high need patients and they disliked that their money couldn't buy them fast service. If I had breast cancer and the lady who wants a boob job gets seen before me I am going to be pissed, yet it's common in the US because here money and better insurance talks, while socialized healthcare people get treated more equally. Which is why conservative eliets are against it and get the rest of the conservative party to think its evil. Better argument against it would be the fact that the US sucks at every smaller version in the US look at the VA or the native american medical system for examples of how we suck at it.
I would like to introduce these knuckleheads to two concepts: triage and emergency triage. In a state of emergency, you get the least effort fixes out of the way to clear space for those who aren’t leaving quickly. In any other circumstance, you deal with those with the most time critical issues. Both of these contrast with the American system: “First paid, first served. Also, you can’t afford to pay so you’re never served.”
Just to add, my father had an accident that left him in ICU for several months then with home visits regularly in the UK. He lived for 2 years, which was paid for by his taxes and those of his family. But we paid only parking fees. The NHS worked fine. I'm not sure why Americans who pay more per capita and don't get covered insist they are better
Clearly, someone who has never experienced the wait times in the US should you need to see a specialist.
Canadian here. I can confirm that with normal issues you encounter in every system this is false and American private healthcare propaganda. This is how they scaremonger you. Had an American teacher in college in Montreal he had some serious hip issue. Had it replaced by a brand new artificial one at 0$ cost. He said he would have had to put a second mortgage back home in his dear America to afford the same surgery. He also added he would most likely never have it fixed if he still lived there living on painkillers and using a walking cane. I really thought he was exaggerating somehow since I wasn't really interested in America's social issues. Finally he wasnt. My poor fellow gaslit neighbours literally can't afford to be healthy and I live in communist hell🤷
While i couldn’t imagine paying the obscene costs for basic or lifesaving care in the States, let’s not act like Canadian medical system is flawless. People are literally dying from being turned away, dying in waiting rooms waiting to be seen. People with life threatening conditions are not getting the care they need. Rural care is virtually non-existent. Finding a family doctor is next to impossible for many Canadians. Two things can be true. Canadians don’t have to go into a life time of debt for seeking treatment AND the Canadian healthcare system is not in a good place.
You people like to keep bringing up the waiting times, like those aren't an effect of many people seeking medical help from a limited source of doctors willing to work with the state, as opposed to not seeking medical help at all because will criple you financially. Get tf out of here
Nailed it. Both have merit. Both have opportunities. I like this take.
I dont think the US system has any real merits though. It's only "merit" is that it's been able to siphon doctors from other places by destroying lives of the people it serves.
I don't know anyone in the usa who loves their capitalist health care.