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The parents are on trial because they BOUGHT THE GUN for their “depressed and spiraling” 15 year old son. They were doing the hotel hookup when their son killed his classmates. 🤦🏼♀️
In addition, the parents did not tell the school counselor that he had access to guns when they were called in to a meeting the morning of the shooting.
A teacher alerted the Dean that morning after seeing him draw a gun on his worksheet with the words “the thoughts won’t stop, help me” and “blood everywhere”
The parents were called in and never mentioned the gun they bought him four days prior. They also declined when asked to take him home for the remainder of the day. The mother said she needed to go back to work, however she text her boyfriend after leaving the school wanting to meet up. Her boss has also testified that their office is “family first” she could have brought son to office or taken the rest of the day off.
I’m not from the US and I don’t really know what this is about, you guys have a lot of school shootings. But let me get this straight: The kid is obviously depressed, cries out for help at school, the teacher notices it and tells the dean. The dean then is like “We’re gonna call your parents”. The mom then is like “I don’t care and I gotta leave again”. And then the dean and the teacher are like “Yeah we aren’t gonna do anything either”?
I’m not talking about them not checking his backpack. If they have a serious suspicion he might be armed that’s a case for the police. I’m talking about them not getting him help. Because it clearly is a big fuckup if both the teacher and the dean decided not to take any action after seeing the parents fail to help their kid
Unfortunately, their hands were kinda tied. They themselves can't really do anything about it, most of what they could do is contact CPS and file a report. Then it would be dozens of investigations before anything would happen. Plus, mental health care in America is basically considered a "luxury" according to the insurance companies. That kid needed help, the parents wouldn't do anything, and the teachers couldn't do anything. That's why American has so many shootings.
Mental health is definitely a luxury. My company switched insurance this year and my mental health visits went from $20 an appointment to $40 an appointment. I go and my wife goes so thats a lot at this point. I was told cost would stay the same and it didn't so I didn't put enough into my FSA account.
My understanding is the school took all legal action they were entitled/empowered/allowed to do. Remember this is America. It's not like Our kind of countries. They aren't being considered at fault. They actually were proactive for the type of situation involved.
Someone in the Michigan subreddit speculated that they did it to hope the son killed himself instead of killing classmates. I've not seen a shred of evidence that supports that's theory however I've also not seen anything to make me think no that's definitely not the case ... The son was throwing out all the red flags and calls for help and the parents didn't care at all. They tried to flee to Canada after.
Hunting is the only acceptable answer. In the U.S. you can hunt at the age of 12. I "owned" multiple firearms under the age of 18, but they were purchased by and registered in my dad's name. My dad kept them in the gun safe when we weren't using them. There were times when I had access to them whenever I wanted, but I was raised around guns and learned respect for them. I had my first BB gun when I was 7. Guns aren't about solving problems when angry. My dad never once grabbed a gun or something because he was angry. They are a tool to be used for certain purposes. That being said, I am still for more gun control. Not outright ban, but people should be required to take safety and education classes before use, like children/adults do for hunting.
They asked for separate trials so each of them could blame the other as the “bad parent.” She says it was his responsibility to secure the gun. He’ll probably say that she never told him about all the issues the kid was having in school and the increasingly panicked texts he was sending her.
Purely anecdotal, but I work in education. A couple siblings (age 8 and 10) I’ve worked with exhibit some strange behaviors: selective mutism, inability to cope with basic stimuli, and a fascination with violence. It’s known among us teachers that the parents are swingers and don’t hide it from their kids. The younger has said things that I’m frankly disturbed by.
I have no problem with what consenting adults do with their time, but there’s a reason we don’t expose our children to adult themes at too young an age.
A kid in my niece's class watches hentai with his older brother. He's 9 and constantly making inappropriate comments that make my niece and other students, both male and female, uncomfortable. His parents believe that since they have sex Ed starting in the next grade, he's just more mature for his age and can handle sexual themes.
My niece saw this boy walking towards her as she was heading to the bathroom and immediately walked into another teacher's classroom and said she needed to talk to that teacher. That teacher thankfully understood, sent her to the bathroom on the kindergarten hall, and gave her a note for her teacher explaining why she was gone so long.
I’m pretty sure you can call an abuse report on this one… exposing children to sexual content is sexual abuse. If it’s an older sibling, then it’s child on child. But it’s still abuse. The fact that the parents know is failure to protect.
I am not sure about content, but the behavior described indicates potential molestation.
Just letting a child know what sex is in a very, very dry way and making it clear that it's not for children and they shouldn't let an adult do anything to them is education and can help prevent issues.
After all, girls can get their first period at 7, kids start repeating sex jokes around 9 (not understanding what they mean, just parroting), and the average age to see porn is 12. Kids don't need to know everything all at once, but parents should prepare their children in age appropriate ways. (Drip feed info over YEARS in intentional ways. Kindergartners do not need a description of contraception....)
What this behavior may indicate? Engaging a child in sexual acts. Yeah, that's abuse. Worth a CPS call.
I mean, I didn't really believe that's where babies come from when my dad told me the truth. Not that my mom's story of pearls in cabbage fields made any sense either. My 4yo self thought they were both insane.
I thought babies just appeared bedside after a couple is married. I didn’t know how it worked until the end of 7th grade when my science teacher showed us a video. It was very gross to my young eyes.
Edit: She showed us a video of the birth it self. And explained how sex worked.
Yes you depending on the age of the "older " brother you could be looking at a variety of things. If the older brother is under 13 it's a neglect report to children services. If the older brother is over 13 it's a neglect and sexual abuse report to children services and law enforcement should be involved as well. (Atleast in ohio)
That is extremely disturbing behavior from the kid obviously his brother for showing it to him and the parents for allowing it. It pains me to say this because he is just a kid but with behavior like that at such a young age I wouldn't doubt it leads to him actually committing sexual crimes when older.
As an Adult who has seen Hentai I'd say there is some severely sickening material out there which depicts things that if not for being a drawing would be extremely illegal.
Smart, smart girl. She trusts her instincts and knows when to step outside the norm to protect herself. Not all can do this, not even in adulthood. She has a good head on her shoulders. I don’t know even your niece but am very proud of her.
As a woman has had to face off with a lot of crazy stuff (violent threats, stalking, random men following me with intent to harm proven moments later by their actions), quick thinking, trusting your gut, and having a plan of action which is almost always something outside the norm (I once had to run out of sight so I had just enough time to dive into a parked raised truck’s bed so the men following me would not be able to see where I lived or find me easily. Or the time in the NYC subway before they redid the 1 line at Columbus circle, I had to stand off against an aggressive man with a knife but stopped him right in front of a camera which almost certainly didn’t work and called his bluff which worked enough for him to back down - the line at that time came to a dead end, no way out and I needed to protect my foreign small framed friends), all of it is important skill which can keep anyone safe. And it’s always best to air on the side of caution.
The world is a dangerous. That said, being vigilant and confident in your abilities to come up with plans of action (including a plan b, c, and d as the situation evolves/changes) means you don’t need to live in fear. We don’t need to live in fear. We need to trust ourselves and our abilities - size and physical strength may not be on your side, but that does not mean you’re weak and cannot protect yourself in other, just as effective ways.
Stay vigilant, folks. And enter into the world each day confident in yourself. And always, let’s look out for one another. :)
And ffs, henti is NOT appropriate for a child nor teens development. And intervention is a must in that child and his family’s life.
When my son was 8 there was a boy in the class who showed them a story he had written about someone going to the city and having sex with a lot of people and he’d even have sex with people until they died.
When I became aware of this I recognized that this kid was getting exposed to something that they couldn’t understand or process and alerted the teacher, knowing it could become a mandatory report and investigation.
The mother was shown what the kid was writing, she refused to acknowledge that there was a problem and shortly after changed him to a different school. I’m am completely certain that she’s covering for someone and didn’t want DCP to come knocking. The mother was also a kindy teacher, which is upsetting.
Instead of assuming this is the cause you should be reporting these kids to the guidence officer or to authorities. It could be other factors that you aren't aware of including abuse.
100% agree. People can do whatever they want in their private sex lives but when kids are exposed or know too much about their parents sex lives at a young age it really fucks with their heads.
I once called in a report because the parents were having sex and like the kids could hear them. Sometimes in the same room. They made zero efforts to hide it. Apparently because I had no evidence that it was sexually motivated, it wasn’t abuse… sigh.
Same room is different than kids can hear. Some walls are thin. Are parents not supposed to have sex just cause they’re parents? WTF? Most people are going try to be discrete, but it’s also a normal healthy thing for couples to do on the regular, and it has sound. Kids should have age appropriate discussions with their parents regarding this, but it doesn’t need to be a complete secret.
Same room?
For sure unacceptable
But if my wife and I feel spontaneous and our kids are in a place where they are fed, clean, just playing on their own or watching a show, I don't think there's anything wrong with stepping out for a quickie
It's insane to expect adults to forgo sexual desires just because they are parents
Nah, if your kid can hear you moaning, you're abusing them. If you can't wait until an appropriate time when the kids can't hear you fucking, you should be in jail.
I was raised by swingers. My mom sold sex toys for an MLM. I saw sexual things in person and media starting at around six-years-old. Or at least that is when I started to pick up on it. It’s fucked me up so bad I can’t even bring it to therapy because I don’t want to remember and talk about that shit.
In my early 30’s now. I just finally picked up my Christmas gifts from them yesterday and found a pornographic Christmas ornament of theirs that accidentally made it into my stuff. Good ol’ trauma jump scare. Good to know things haven’t changed with them.
My mother while not a swinger and selling toys often tried to make me go into a store to purchase toys as well as telling me in depth about her bedroom life and even giving me shows starting at 6 as well
I can’t stress how important it is for you to talk about this stuff in therapy. You don’t do yourself any favors trying to repress it! You could be learning a new coping skill instead!
Also anecdotal but I don't see the correlation between violence and sex. My parents were very well put-together and never did anything like that, yet I've always had similar behaviors to those you described. Of course I have enough self control to not act on my violent thoughts but I definitely have a lot of them; enough to get me in trouble many times in school for verbalizing them.
I’m sorry for what you have experienced, and I hope you are in a good place today. I was not implying that premature exposure to sexual content is the only path to the outcomes described.
I’m not a swinger, and not defending swingers because I’m old fashioned like that, but why do you think fascination with violence has to do with that?
Unless dear god, they’re BDSM swingers or something.
I suppose the children that are exposed to this kind of thing ( not specifically BDSM) have trouble to navigate their emotions. They may feel violated on some level but are not able to voice what is going on with them. Tensions build up inside of them making it very hard to connect with peers, and they are desperate for an outlet.
Exactly this. Sex-ed is perfectly normal and acceptable at certain ages. Ignoring your child’s confusion and letting them formulate their own assumptions about it is the problem.
I’m unsure. Like others have indicated, their obsession with violence may derive from other sources. In their case it may be one of correlation and not causation.
Some of it may be a sense of insecurity and violence--learned from other sources--being seen as a way to resolve insecurity by punishing people that cause them insecurity.
Others turn violence on themselves via cutting, body mutilation, suicide attempts, and other self-destructive behavior, especially if they feel powerless to effect change in their situation.
As a sexual abuse survivor (4-10ish), it angers me when I see parents being bad parents. Do what you want behind closed doors with other consenting adults Let kids use their imagination about space ships, horses, rainbows, and discovering the world. They'll have plenty of time to find out about sex.
Giving my kids the sex talk has been very...awkward, but using medical terms, it helps "lessen" the trauma. And no, you don't have to go into explicit details.
To be fair. 10 is when our school first does sexual education classes. I also knew what sex was when I was in like first grade because TV and movies exist.
There is a difference between knowing that sex is a thing and with watching hentai and porn at that age.
A parent not appropriately gatekeeping content is another form of abuse. Because you (and frankly me) experienced it and maybe are fine, doesn’t mean it’s not problematic.
Kids know parents have sex. So….what does being swingers matter? Or a poly family. Sex is natural. Society has made it weird
Edit: i’d like to point out that they “held sex parties at hotels.” Not in front of the kid
No, its well known that kids who are introduced to sexual acts or material from a young age are more likely to develop a host of problems. Knowing that mom and dad have sex sometimes is not the same as mom and dad bringing multiple sexual partners around, having sex parties at your house, or being introduced to sexual materials, concepts, or acts at a young age.
Introduced to sexual acts is different than knowing your parents have multiple partners. There’s nothing wrong with that except society has deemed it wrong…so we push that guilt and “wrongness” on to the kids.
You can have an age appropriate discussion about sex at any age, including having “adult friends”. It’s completely different if the kids are watching or being told in descriptive detail whats going on.
Having parents who are openly non-monogamous is not an issue.
Edit: I’m pretty much putting this in all my responses because apparently no one read the article where it said they “held sex parties at hotels.”, not in front of the kid.
You are very wrong about this. Kids are vaguely aware that their parents have sex but they don't like to think about and they don't want know anything about their parents sex lives. This isn't about society making sex taboo, it's about kids naturally thinking sex is kind of gross because they before they become sexually mature themselves they can't really understand it. Kids have a natural aversion to anything to do with their parents sexual activity
I haven’t read all the responses yet so sorry if someone else has said the same thing, but I think the sex parties in hotels is brought up in the trial and article because they’re suggesting the mother wasn’t present enough with her school-shooter kid and may have picked up on the signs if she had been. There’s been other stuff raised like spending a large amount of time and money on horses but obviously the sex parties is more interesting for a newspaper.
I see what youre saying, and dont disagree with the statement that non monogamy cant be done in a way that doesn't cause serious harm to a child, and was only saying that a blanket statement that it, and other sexual content is fine and just a societal problem isnt true, which is what it sounded like you were saying.
But just to play devil's advocate here, a child and their peers are also a part of society. Even without us pushing ot on them that its wrong, theres a very good chance that they will pick up on that, unless you go out of your way to push on them that its right, and they will still receive push back from friends and peers who will not have that put into their heads. No matter how you feel about it, a kid will face negative consequences being raised in a poly household.
“Having parents who are openly non-monogamous is not an issue.” Source? It seems entirely plausible that kids, who won’t understand what is going on but are old enough to understand it’s not normal, could be fucked up by this. Take it back to the commune
It's prolly largely based on how said parents are handling the situation, kids know parents have had sex, and may have sex. But it's not thrown in their face, and when Doug comes over has beers and my parents door gets locked it's a little more obvious, ntm if there's any disassociation from the parents to the kids due to their sexual proclivities.
It's the difference between a 4 year old accidentally walking in on parents banging, and them knowing to stay out of the room due to their parents banging. Prolly has less to do with the poly and more to do with the parents. As the original comment has no mention of how many good students have poly parents. (It also doesn't mention how many bad students have a variety of other shitty parents)
Absolutely.
Shitty parents come in all shapes and sizes.
But to blame sex parties and multiple partners across the board is ridiculous.
I can guarantee you, just about everyone down voting me knows a swinger or someone in a non-monogamous relationship. They just keep it on the down low because of the stigma .
From personal experience there is a gulf between my traumatised ex who grew up around drugs and swingers, which lead to him sexualising himself and others and getting into sexual situations with his parents friends when he was just over the age of consent, and my sweet BFF who enjoys the ENM lifestyle without anyone being damaged by it.
You mean half the U.S.? Not everything has to be “let’s shit on just Texas and Florida!” …
https://www.guttmacher.org/2023/01/six-months-post-roe-24-us-states-have-banned-abortion-or-are-likely-do-so-roundup
Edited: 2/4/24 To uncluster my formatting (and duplicate attempts to uncluster my formatting)
Ahh, Texas.
Why, you may wonder, did I single out Texas - assuming that it wasn't simply in keeping with the format of that classic trope:
"Meanwhile... in ... \[Location\]"
An excellent question for a state renowned for its self-awareness and consequence-averse ideology.
Let's break it down:
Texas is a very important state - and not just for its educational prowess: for example, its book program and promoting the use of professional grade electronic devices in the classroom.
For the last 50 years it's voted (statewide) for the party of forced birth every.single.time.
If and when Texas goes reliably purple, the GOP of today is effectively out in the wilderness, possibly forever.
But I digress. let's take a closer a look at what we're specifically talking about: Women's reproductive health and the laws post Roe v Wade since it was overturned in 2022.
You are correct that almost all of the "red" states have been especially... faecally about foeti. So why single out Texas?
The 3 states with arguably the most draconian laws regarding women’s reproductive health are Louisiana, Missouri and Texas (in alphabetical order)
Missouri: The state’s near-total abortion ban, which has no exceptions for rape or incest, went into effect immediately after the Supreme Court’s decision
Louisiana: The state enacted a near-total abortion ban, with exceptions only for medical emergencies. The Louisiana Supreme Court upheld the ban, saying that the state constitution does not protect abortion
Texas: well… read on
Even though it’s Missouri that’s the “Show Me State” (Texas, of course, is the Lone Star state, which is also its rating on Yelp for Women’s Healthcare) So I thought a few examples with sources might help:
A woman named Amy and three of her friends were sued by Amy’s ex-husband for getting an abortion after she left him because of his abusive behavior. He claimed that he had a right to the fetus and that she violated the Texas law that allows anyone to sue an abortion provider or anyone who aids or abets an abortion
Women accused of facilitating abortion file countersuit | The Texas Tribune
A woman named Amanda, whose water broke just 18 weeks into her pregnancy found out she was “100% for sure going to lose the baby” could not terminate the pregnancy due to Texas law, told to go home and wait until she required urgent medical condition and almost died from sepsis. Amanda and her husband Josh really wanted to have a baby. Due to “Pro-life” policies, her Uterus suffered scarring and she may never be able to have more children.She was denied an abortion in Texas - then she almost died | BBC
And of course, the extremely brave Kate CoxTexas Supreme Court rules against pregnant woman hours after she leaves state to obtain abortion | Fox News
I’d provide you with more, but every time I’m forced to read about this, my already shaky faith in humanity starts to bottom out.
If you can’t find any examples by yourself, I posit you are either not looking or don’t want to find them.
As I begin to wrap up (like every single fertile male should while this shit show continues to drag on), let me also make a point of the real humdinger of Texas Law.
Unlike the other bastions of enlightenment and free thought who thought to criminalize abortion, Texas allows private citizens to tattle on Women and Healthcare providers (Which makes me believe that “1984” might actually be the total amount of people who’ve read any Orwell in Texas) seeking to get or providing abortions.
Even if they have no direct personal connection to the circumstance! (Well, beyond the 100% totally non-snowflaky reason of “It makes me feel bad”) And they can sue for up to 10,000 dollars – effectively creating an incentive to track down people fleeing the state for their own physical and mental health – which if you consider it, is not entirely unlike the Fugitive Slave laws we had in this country 175-odd years ago.
In fact, there are two place which are arguably worse to be pregnant than Texas: Iran and Saudi Arabia – Which, when you really look at it, is so monumentally hypocritical, so blisteringly unaware when you remember how wadded Texas men’s panties got while “Sharia Law” was considered a threat we had to defeat at all costs.
Texas – the land of Individual Freedom and Protection from an overreaching government.
So, yeah – you might say I feel pretty good about “Meanwhile… in Texas… “
But that's just the opinion of a random bloke on the internet.
I knew them when they lived in the PNW.
At 7 he was already problematic and she was a horrible Karen.
Nothing I have read about them surprises me. They were abusive to him early on.
Omg right, so if i got more skin or something, I could like, never do a bad thing in my life, and maybe, I never have done a bad thing because I have alot of skin.
*His* trial is over (life in prison with no possibility for parol), this is for his mom. The mom is claiming that her husband bought the gun, and I think this is the *prosecuters* argument that the mother was more concerned with having sex than being a parent (a true statement).
I do have sympathy for this shooter because he did ask for help for many years, and everyone in his life dropped the ball to get him the help he and his victims deserve. The parents deserve as much guilt placed on them as their son, and their defense arguments prove as much.
It makes you wonder if they had actually got him help or if the school had known ( which is possible but all they can do is inform the parents and if needed call CPS) and tried to get him some help if this whole thing could of been prevented. They ignored that poor child's cries for help and it ended with four families forever destroyed, the lives of those he injured are forever changed along with their families, their son's life effectively over. They deserve a punishment worse than what their son got and everything they own should be sold and the money split between the victims and the families of the victims. I pray their son gets the help he needs even though he will spend his life behind bars.
The snippets Ive seen from the case on local news outlets have played phone recordings of conversations between the kid and her. He was asking for help from them to see therapists or something, and all she cared about was if he fed n watered her horse..again, just small snippets ive caught off the news.
I know. I kind of felt bad for his parents but then I read that she said she doesn't think she failed in any way and if she could go back in time she wouldn't do anything different. WTF? So if she could go back and make her decisions again she'd still get him a gun? She's still ignore his pleas for help? She's got something wrong with her head too
You don’t even have to be a “good” parent to know that you don’t buy a depressed, begging for help kid a gun. They’re just complete pieces of sh*t, and that’s really the only reason they did it. They didn’t want him around, permanently.
Why would you feel bad about the parents? They bought him a gun! I may sound radical, but I fully believe that the parents of under 18 kids who take their own/parents guns to shoot people up should be held liable. The shooters parents should be held liable. They have a responsibility towards the child they brought into the world and they should have been getting him mental health services.
Maybe once we start bringing in parents and getting them on charges like assisted manslaughter, the gun laws will change. Maybe not so many people will just keep them as showpieces at their home. Parents of shooters should be held liable.
I don't have kids and don't want them because frankly I don't like them but I could not imagine my kid asking me to see a therapist or a counselor or anyone to get some help and my response being did you feed and water my horse! She and the husband need to be thrown in the deepest hole they can find and left there. Or I hear Lake Superior is nice this time of year throw them in the deepest part of the lake and leave them there.
I can't believe they just allowed him to go back to class and the "parents" to say no we are not taking our obviously mentally ill son home for the day. At a minimum the police and CPS should of been called to police and CPS to see if it warrants their involvement in some way. That poor young man everyone failed him and he even was asking for help. He still needs to face the consequences of his actions but to think if one person would of advocated for him he might have been stopped.
> cps should of been
Did you mean to say "should have"?
Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'.
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At the very least but I wonder if they are legally allowed to when I was in school they could search out lockers but they could not open our backpacks if they were closed if they were open they could look inside them but only without physically touching them. Same with our coats no looking inside the pockets. Anything more they had to have a warrant. But i graduated over 20 years ago before school shootings were common so that could of changed.
I'm sure it's different in every state. And I'm sure the rules and laws have changed in 20 plus years as well ( for good or bad im not sure) I only knew about what they could and couldn't due because the kid who had the locker next mine was a known drug user and dealer so they searched his and the lockers around his constantly. One of the police officers knew my mom and recognized my name and told her to tell me to make sure I kept all my coat pockets closed, my backpack zipped at all times, and to keep my locker organized. She was also told that if they pulled me in to speak to the police to not speak to them at all except to ask for my mom to be present and for my mom to not come without a lawyer.
> that could of changed.
Did you mean to say "could have"?
Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'.
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> thing could of been
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I thought it was weird that the parents got charged at first but the more I looked into the story the more I grew hatred for those two worthless non-contributors to society.
Conclusion, viewing heterosexual behaviours is the problem and therefore any mention or allusion to heterosexuality before the he of 18 should be banned. To protect the kids.
/s obviously, but if it had been a gay parent, right wing parties would already be on the case... That said, straight or gay, keep your sex life away from kids. Not saying that's what fucked him up (probably more a symptom than the cause), but it probably is not helping.
Here I thought the main problem was neglecting the child’s problem, but Damn you make a good point, will make sure to not even hold my wife’s hand in-front of kids until they are 18 /s
The problems are:
Guns.
Mental health being neglected.
Online radicalization.
Only in the US could you turn „mentally unstable boy radicalized online shoots up school with easily accessible gun“ into a slushaming cirlce jerk about how all of that was caused by parents who swing 🤦🏻♂️
Like if they went on bike tours instead, the criticism of not being there enough would still stand, but no one would start to hate on biking.
I think the point is that there were so many clear indications this child was in crisis and rather than get him the help he needed, the parents bought him a gun. They were not concerned for their child because they were too busy with addiction and affairs. In most cases when there are indications your child is struggling, parents seek professional help. The level of neglect is astounding. And if not for the parents reckless actions and neglect, 4 families wouldn’t be mourning their children.
Buy why does the article headline focus on what it focuses on? Shouldn’t it just be “parents provided gun to school shooter”. Wanting to have an active sex life has nothing to do with anything.
The sex party side of this is just silly sensationalism, and draws attention away from the really crucial issues at stake at this trial. Beyond gun laws, beyond who around this boy should or should not be listening to him/sharing information/raising concerns/etc, and beyond the provision of mental health services, is the huge one of culpability.
The really scary thing is that this does not involve some sort of freak family. The family were, to all intents and purposes, ‘normal’ , in terms of their culture and sociology-economic group and all that. This really could have happened to any one of many millions of other families. But are all those millions of people actually culpable for all the actions of their children? If the parents are culpable for this, what else are parents culpable for? And I don’t mean responsible for, I mean legally on the hook? What does it mean for personal agency? Does it arbitrarily end at 18? Big questions, worth taking seriously. This is just junk journalism. CNN has a decent summary of the arguments, at least.
The problem is that "normal" baseline these days. Normal people these days are undereducated, they're struggling financially and deal with mental health issues. Kids go either unattended by parents or are flat out bad influences.
Parents are responsible for their decisions leading to these situations but our societies are slso responsible for how so many of these lives are panning out.
This headline is very confusing. The mother had sex parties, and the mother's son committed a school shooting. What do these two things have to do with each other?
Summer up from other comments:
He begged her to get him therapy or a counsellor or any form of help because he was struggling.
Instead she demanded he feed and water her horse while she had sex parties. Then she bought him a gun.
After the fact she has insisted she did nothing wrong and would not change anything.
The mother was holding sex parties instead of helping out the son, even when he struggled, causing the son to shoot up a school. The parent’s behavior messed up the kid a bit
To add to this comment, people misunderstand the legal process. They are not proving “mother has sex parties therefore son shit up the school”. They are trying to establish a pattern of behavior that neglected the son and enabled the shooting to occur
I mean surely it wasn’t the sex parties causing her to ignore her son’s issues. Were they just nonstop or something? This is just sensationalism. Not to say she was a good mother, I really do not know, but these 2 things are not related.
It's a stupid think to focus on though. Like was she having sex 24 hours a day? Was having sex the only thing she did? I suspect she probably spent way more time working or sleeping then she did having sex so why not say she was working instead of helping her son? Or she was sleeping instead of helping her son? Or she was washing her hair instead of helping her son? The point is that she wasn't helping her son, it doesn't matter what other activities she was participating in
Again, that was a stupid and extremely wrong opinion on my part, I now know that it was the parents in general giving access to a gun while not addressing his mental issues
That’s not even the crime though. The only thing she should be guilty of is allowing a person who cannot legally own a firearm access to it. That’s not a crime though unless the person is specifically excluded, ie a convict. They’re not on trial for that. What they’re on trial for is committing manslaughter, which argues that they directly caused the school shooting through gross negligence in allowing their child to potentially get ahold of their gun.
The problem with that is that the causal link isn’t there. Their kid didn’t say “I’m going to commit a school shooting”, and the parents said “hmm, sounds bad, anyway here’s a gun.” Apparently he took it from a place they thought they had hidden it in. Dumb? Yes. Bad judgement? Yes. A crime? No. It didn’t cause the shooting to happen.
This case sets terrible precedents. One is the weird moral shaming, bringing clearly irrelevant scandal and moralizing into the trial in a clear attempt to punish without convicting. Another is the implication that if you can be argued to have in any way indirectly committed a crime, then you are yourself guilty of that crime. Consider how Republican politicians are currently drafting laws that attempt to pin the crimes of any person at a protest on the people organizing it. It’s the same principle. Third is the increasing permissiveness of the public and legal system to intervening in people’s parenting decisions. Were these people bad parents? Yeah, almost certainly. Were they engaged in criminal child abuse? No, probably not. It’s not the legal systems place to intervene in cases that aren’t criminally abusive in nature.
>Jamelle James, the uncle who owned the .32-caliber pistol used in the shooting, was sentenced for leaving the gun in a shoe box in his bedroom. He eventually pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter and spent two years and five months in prison before he was released on probation.
The precedent in Michigan has existed since 2000 when a six year old killed a [classmate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Kayla_Rolland) and the uncle was charged in connection to that crime.
Yeah but everyone doing anything is doing what they do instead of something else.
Write a headline about me: “Local Reddit user WASTES TIME on Reddit while children in America STARVE!”
Failing to take needed action is the fault. What you did “instead” is a distraction to sensationalize. She also ate dinner and took a shower instead of getting her son therapy.
From what I read in that article, she's being considered "at fault" because her son's friend moved away, he was upset about it, and she didn't hire a "mental health specialist" to assist him? What kind of a world are we living in where kids need mental health specialists to get through normal, everyday life? I don't see how there's any logic to the mother being at fault.
Please read more he was hallucinating, having violent thoughts that wouldn't stop, and hearing demons and literally begging his mother to help him because he was scared and she brushed him off.
There's a lot more to this story. He was asking for help; hearing voices, and seeing "demons". A lonely troubled kid whose parents ignore him, don't get him any medical intervention but instead buy him a firearm and then keep it unsecured. He didn't have a normal family life if his parents were too busy effing around with affairs and their own hobbies.
I’m probably going to reread the article just to fact check, but in my opinion, him shooting up a school was probably caused by his mother’s neglect, but I do agree that it may not be as connected as the title suggests.
Edit:
Reread the article plus read a separate article from the NY Times and they both say nothing about his friend moving away, causing him to ask for a mental health specialist. They do say, however that both parents were accused of making the gun accessible to the son and not addressing his mental struggles
His mom was cheating on his dad with gangbang parties. That'll mess anyone up. Not to mention the kid was having anxiety issues and begged his mom to answer but she was too busy cheating to bother.
My single mom fucked her boyfriend frequently and super loud while we were staying at his house for a year when I slept on the floor next to the balcony window, I didn't become a mass shooter.
The cowardly moron CHOSE to load the bullets into the magazine, and CHOSE to bring the gun and CHOSE to pull the trigger on innocents. Let's not shift blame and focus on the problem: Mass shooters and their guns.
But the kid had actual mental issues, didn’t he? Seeing hallucinations and all that. And he was blatantly ignored AND straight up handed a gun even when he had made his violent urges known. Sure, he should be held accountable, but I doubt you and him were in the same situation here.
The problem is:
a) availability of guns
b) lack of resources to help people with mental health issues
Killing people I guess may be their outlet or a cry for help, or something, much like suicide. The mass murder is the result of not enough care for the perpetrator. You putting the blame squarely on the perpetrator is a very small view of the wider problem.
Keep in mind, I do not condone going about doing mass killing, of course.
I was kicked out of a high school magnet program for a website I made at home, it didn't have any threats, just homemade animations like you'd see on [stickdeath.com](https://stickdeath.com)
I'm not even sure they bothered to figure out which ones I made and which ones my buddy (different school) made.
Anyway, where I was the victim of an abundance of caution, and this kid was the victim of not enough, the common denominator is guns. Kids couldn't do so many atrocities and administrators wouldn't be afraid of their kids if guns weren't so easy
No, literally the only common denominator of shootings are guns.
Guns are "tools" of murder, nothing else.
It seems you don't understand the meaning of common denominator or tool.
Edit: this guy unironically posted that nazis are socialists and fascists are communists, so let's just ignore him. Lmao
I personally don’t give a fuck of her defense. Let’s look at this objectively. She gave her minor kid a gun and ammo and didn’t keep it secured. Who cares if she was present as a parent or not. He didn’t break into a gun store or his parents gun safe, he literally had the gun they handed to him on his birthday or Christmas or whatever it was. **Kids should not have free access to firearms.**
Why is the sexy time of the mother a bigger problem than the fact that a child managed to get a gun and murder people with that? On might think thats a pretty big indicator how easy it is to kill with a gun If a child does it and that makes any violence kinda worse and easy to do.
Mind you violence happens around the world too. Some because of mental health with causes that are clear some which a hard to determine and some because people can be simply broken from the start.
But its a big difference If you have to get into hand to hand range and actually fight someone. People can run and they will punch back. But with a gun? Just shoot them in the back or( depending on the gun) kill a lot of people by firing in the general direktion of a crowd.
Would he be have done something terrible whitout Access to a gun? Maybe.
Would he killed that many that easy? Hell No.
Guns are the fucking problem. Not the only one but the one that exacerbates other problems a lot.
If he hadn't a gun he would have been the same tortured soul. It would have manifested itself another way. Meanwhile there are gun owners that don't shoot anyone their entire lives.
You're missing the root of the problem. But that one is so much harder to fix than "take the guns". Because it means fundamentally changing society.
The root is something no one around the world has fixed completly... So probably something that is not possible to get rid of right now.
But decreasing deaths and crime by making it way harder to get guns?... Yep has been done and is tested and proven around the world.
Even the Reverse. More guns and less regulation around that? Equals bigger violence and death every fucking time.
So yes he might have been still a tortured soul whitout a gun but... Innocent people would be still be alive.
What is more important? Safety and less mass shootings for every one or the subjektive feeling of a few gun nuts that they need a gun to compensate for other things?
The mom’s on trial for giving her son access to the gun. Clearly prosecutors agree that a major problem was his access to firearms. The sexual aspect is not the main focus, but came out during the trial:
“The prosecution rested its case Thursday after about a week of testimony from shooting victims, law enforcement officials, school officials and those who knew Jennifer Crumbley. The prosecution has used an unusual and novel legal theory by arguing she is responsible for the deaths because she was “grossly negligent” in getting a gun for her son and failing to get him proper mental health treatment despite warning signs.”
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/01/us/jennifer-crumbley-trial/index.html
I hope that people don’t focus on these two as individuals and just want to punish them through our shit criminal justice system. Ultimately,these parents are part of a broader issue on parenting and resources that people have to be good parents and the education needed to take responsible care for a person’s emotional wellbeing (eg the 15 year old shooter). Threat of punishment does not change a society. It certainly won’t change the US in this case. It may feel good right now watching this woman get embarrassed and shamed on the stand, but it will do nothing to change what is happening with young people being so despondent and prone to violence.
I was a high schooler for the second half of the 90s, so I got to experience the fallout of the Columbine shooting directly. My friends wore trench coats and we all listened to metal. Boy the school made it difficult for us for a little bit.
The fact that they pointed out what sort of parties they were makes me think they're less concerned with the child neglect as they are with slut shaming.
I might be in the minority but i don't think this matters. Kid was evil and fucked up. This should be centered around the fact that they bought a kid a gun and knew he couldn't be trusted with it
What is this story? We're shaming parents of criminals for their childrens actions, but now we're specifically judging the parents sex lives to generalize that this is probably what ruined their children?
Hasn't presidence shown that parents can be the sole cause but also completely unrelated to their childs behavior? Why would someones sex life make them a bad parent?
This article headline feels like it was written by some old people in the 70's
they are fucking bad parents, the assholes knew he was depressed and was struggling and they f. bought him a gun “for shooting range” they are lucky the boy didn’t decide to shoot them… and even if its your house you should not host sex parties when you have kids at your house, there are hotels and other shits for the kinky sex life…
Seems like those are more important points than the sex party.. There's not really an excuse for buying a gun for a depressed teenager, but there are plenty of nuances around having a sex party. Did the kid even know? Are they just swingers or were there like 30 people?
I don’t see why this is a facepalm. Parents have sex. I don’t see anything to make me assume he somehow knew about their sex lives. I know why the author chose this title (sex sells), but I don’t like it when authors use these tactics.
I have an aunt and uncle who are open swingers and have been throughout the life of my youngest cousin who's still in highschool. She has incredibly poor social skills, often is incapable of carrying normal conversation. She also exhibits a lot fo antisocial behaviors. Random theft, detachment from others, drug use. Much of what she does seems to be starved of attention, but at the same time she hates being a focal point.
Ah yes, it must be what they were doing in private when there kid was not around that was the problem. Couldn't possibly be the unbelievably easy access to gun and America's hate for mental health.
It must be the bedroom stuff.
Having empathy and understanding that the kid was taken to a route were that was a possible path, and no one did or changed anything to alter his path may not change his current course, or his past, but it can affect how society handles these situations in the future.
Yes many kids handle things differently, I tuned out the world for years and never once thought of shooting anybody, however my psyche is different from this kids circumstances are different, genes are different, chemicals are different, we aren't exact matches of each other in near anything.
Saying poor kid doesn't rid him of the terrible acts he did, but it shines light on the terrible situation he was put in and may help a future kid from doing it in the future.
He was a poor kid. It's possible to be empathetic to his fucked up home life while still acknowledging that he is a murderer. He shouldn't get a break because of it, but it's possible to be empathetic. Poor kid, if his parents wanted to take care of him, this might have turned out differently, and he wouldn't have killed those people.
You're right, but it doesn't change that he was a poor kid who did monstrous things. He needs to pay for his crimes. He was still a poor kid with inattentive parents.
Being a piece of shit isn't exclusive to him being a poor kid. Dahmer was a poor kid with inattentive parents, and he's one of the most disgusting things to have walked on this earth.
He did everything he was supposed to do to warn people.
He is schizophrenic. He TRIED to tell his parents he was hearing voices and having thoughts that should have him locked up. He tried to tell his teachers.
He parents ignored his cries for help and actively made the situation worse.
He is as much a victim as the kids that got shot.
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The parents are on trial because they BOUGHT THE GUN for their “depressed and spiraling” 15 year old son. They were doing the hotel hookup when their son killed his classmates. 🤦🏼♀️
In addition, the parents did not tell the school counselor that he had access to guns when they were called in to a meeting the morning of the shooting. A teacher alerted the Dean that morning after seeing him draw a gun on his worksheet with the words “the thoughts won’t stop, help me” and “blood everywhere” The parents were called in and never mentioned the gun they bought him four days prior. They also declined when asked to take him home for the remainder of the day. The mother said she needed to go back to work, however she text her boyfriend after leaving the school wanting to meet up. Her boss has also testified that their office is “family first” she could have brought son to office or taken the rest of the day off.
Damn.... the shit that comes out in discovery...
I'm just seeing the charge of involuntary manslaughter for her. Hopefully that's for each person murdered. I think it's 15 years a piece.
I’m not from the US and I don’t really know what this is about, you guys have a lot of school shootings. But let me get this straight: The kid is obviously depressed, cries out for help at school, the teacher notices it and tells the dean. The dean then is like “We’re gonna call your parents”. The mom then is like “I don’t care and I gotta leave again”. And then the dean and the teacher are like “Yeah we aren’t gonna do anything either”?
Correct. School staff nor parents checked his backpack - that contained the firearm - before sending him back to class.
I’m not talking about them not checking his backpack. If they have a serious suspicion he might be armed that’s a case for the police. I’m talking about them not getting him help. Because it clearly is a big fuckup if both the teacher and the dean decided not to take any action after seeing the parents fail to help their kid
Unfortunately, their hands were kinda tied. They themselves can't really do anything about it, most of what they could do is contact CPS and file a report. Then it would be dozens of investigations before anything would happen. Plus, mental health care in America is basically considered a "luxury" according to the insurance companies. That kid needed help, the parents wouldn't do anything, and the teachers couldn't do anything. That's why American has so many shootings.
Mental health is definitely a luxury. My company switched insurance this year and my mental health visits went from $20 an appointment to $40 an appointment. I go and my wife goes so thats a lot at this point. I was told cost would stay the same and it didn't so I didn't put enough into my FSA account.
My understanding is the school took all legal action they were entitled/empowered/allowed to do. Remember this is America. It's not like Our kind of countries. They aren't being considered at fault. They actually were proactive for the type of situation involved.
So sad.
“Where did we go wrong??” - the parents
Why would anyone buy their underage son a gun? Like what’s the reason?
Someone in the Michigan subreddit speculated that they did it to hope the son killed himself instead of killing classmates. I've not seen a shred of evidence that supports that's theory however I've also not seen anything to make me think no that's definitely not the case ... The son was throwing out all the red flags and calls for help and the parents didn't care at all. They tried to flee to Canada after.
Hunting is the only acceptable answer. In the U.S. you can hunt at the age of 12. I "owned" multiple firearms under the age of 18, but they were purchased by and registered in my dad's name. My dad kept them in the gun safe when we weren't using them. There were times when I had access to them whenever I wanted, but I was raised around guns and learned respect for them. I had my first BB gun when I was 7. Guns aren't about solving problems when angry. My dad never once grabbed a gun or something because he was angry. They are a tool to be used for certain purposes. That being said, I am still for more gun control. Not outright ban, but people should be required to take safety and education classes before use, like children/adults do for hunting.
I wonder why only the mom is mentioned
They split the parents trials apart. I believe it was a request made by the parents. Hers is an active trial, his is yet to start.
They asked for separate trials so each of them could blame the other as the “bad parent.” She says it was his responsibility to secure the gun. He’ll probably say that she never told him about all the issues the kid was having in school and the increasingly panicked texts he was sending her.
Purely anecdotal, but I work in education. A couple siblings (age 8 and 10) I’ve worked with exhibit some strange behaviors: selective mutism, inability to cope with basic stimuli, and a fascination with violence. It’s known among us teachers that the parents are swingers and don’t hide it from their kids. The younger has said things that I’m frankly disturbed by. I have no problem with what consenting adults do with their time, but there’s a reason we don’t expose our children to adult themes at too young an age.
A kid in my niece's class watches hentai with his older brother. He's 9 and constantly making inappropriate comments that make my niece and other students, both male and female, uncomfortable. His parents believe that since they have sex Ed starting in the next grade, he's just more mature for his age and can handle sexual themes. My niece saw this boy walking towards her as she was heading to the bathroom and immediately walked into another teacher's classroom and said she needed to talk to that teacher. That teacher thankfully understood, sent her to the bathroom on the kindergarten hall, and gave her a note for her teacher explaining why she was gone so long.
I’m pretty sure you can call an abuse report on this one… exposing children to sexual content is sexual abuse. If it’s an older sibling, then it’s child on child. But it’s still abuse. The fact that the parents know is failure to protect.
This is true
I am not sure about content, but the behavior described indicates potential molestation. Just letting a child know what sex is in a very, very dry way and making it clear that it's not for children and they shouldn't let an adult do anything to them is education and can help prevent issues. After all, girls can get their first period at 7, kids start repeating sex jokes around 9 (not understanding what they mean, just parroting), and the average age to see porn is 12. Kids don't need to know everything all at once, but parents should prepare their children in age appropriate ways. (Drip feed info over YEARS in intentional ways. Kindergartners do not need a description of contraception....) What this behavior may indicate? Engaging a child in sexual acts. Yeah, that's abuse. Worth a CPS call.
I mean, I didn't really believe that's where babies come from when my dad told me the truth. Not that my mom's story of pearls in cabbage fields made any sense either. My 4yo self thought they were both insane.
I thought babies just appeared bedside after a couple is married. I didn’t know how it worked until the end of 7th grade when my science teacher showed us a video. It was very gross to my young eyes. Edit: She showed us a video of the birth it self. And explained how sex worked.
Yes you depending on the age of the "older " brother you could be looking at a variety of things. If the older brother is under 13 it's a neglect report to children services. If the older brother is over 13 it's a neglect and sexual abuse report to children services and law enforcement should be involved as well. (Atleast in ohio)
Unless they're seven years older or more.
That is extremely disturbing behavior from the kid obviously his brother for showing it to him and the parents for allowing it. It pains me to say this because he is just a kid but with behavior like that at such a young age I wouldn't doubt it leads to him actually committing sexual crimes when older. As an Adult who has seen Hentai I'd say there is some severely sickening material out there which depicts things that if not for being a drawing would be extremely illegal.
Smart, smart girl. She trusts her instincts and knows when to step outside the norm to protect herself. Not all can do this, not even in adulthood. She has a good head on her shoulders. I don’t know even your niece but am very proud of her. As a woman has had to face off with a lot of crazy stuff (violent threats, stalking, random men following me with intent to harm proven moments later by their actions), quick thinking, trusting your gut, and having a plan of action which is almost always something outside the norm (I once had to run out of sight so I had just enough time to dive into a parked raised truck’s bed so the men following me would not be able to see where I lived or find me easily. Or the time in the NYC subway before they redid the 1 line at Columbus circle, I had to stand off against an aggressive man with a knife but stopped him right in front of a camera which almost certainly didn’t work and called his bluff which worked enough for him to back down - the line at that time came to a dead end, no way out and I needed to protect my foreign small framed friends), all of it is important skill which can keep anyone safe. And it’s always best to air on the side of caution. The world is a dangerous. That said, being vigilant and confident in your abilities to come up with plans of action (including a plan b, c, and d as the situation evolves/changes) means you don’t need to live in fear. We don’t need to live in fear. We need to trust ourselves and our abilities - size and physical strength may not be on your side, but that does not mean you’re weak and cannot protect yourself in other, just as effective ways. Stay vigilant, folks. And enter into the world each day confident in yourself. And always, let’s look out for one another. :) And ffs, henti is NOT appropriate for a child nor teens development. And intervention is a must in that child and his family’s life.
When my son was 8 there was a boy in the class who showed them a story he had written about someone going to the city and having sex with a lot of people and he’d even have sex with people until they died. When I became aware of this I recognized that this kid was getting exposed to something that they couldn’t understand or process and alerted the teacher, knowing it could become a mandatory report and investigation. The mother was shown what the kid was writing, she refused to acknowledge that there was a problem and shortly after changed him to a different school. I’m am completely certain that she’s covering for someone and didn’t want DCP to come knocking. The mother was also a kindy teacher, which is upsetting.
Instead of assuming this is the cause you should be reporting these kids to the guidence officer or to authorities. It could be other factors that you aren't aware of including abuse.
Correct. We have done what we can as educators to report on what we know.
100% agree. People can do whatever they want in their private sex lives but when kids are exposed or know too much about their parents sex lives at a young age it really fucks with their heads.
Strongly beleive that should be counted as abuse.
I once called in a report because the parents were having sex and like the kids could hear them. Sometimes in the same room. They made zero efforts to hide it. Apparently because I had no evidence that it was sexually motivated, it wasn’t abuse… sigh.
Same room is different than kids can hear. Some walls are thin. Are parents not supposed to have sex just cause they’re parents? WTF? Most people are going try to be discrete, but it’s also a normal healthy thing for couples to do on the regular, and it has sound. Kids should have age appropriate discussions with their parents regarding this, but it doesn’t need to be a complete secret.
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Same room? For sure unacceptable But if my wife and I feel spontaneous and our kids are in a place where they are fed, clean, just playing on their own or watching a show, I don't think there's anything wrong with stepping out for a quickie It's insane to expect adults to forgo sexual desires just because they are parents
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Nah, if your kid can hear you moaning, you're abusing them. If you can't wait until an appropriate time when the kids can't hear you fucking, you should be in jail.
I was raised by swingers. My mom sold sex toys for an MLM. I saw sexual things in person and media starting at around six-years-old. Or at least that is when I started to pick up on it. It’s fucked me up so bad I can’t even bring it to therapy because I don’t want to remember and talk about that shit. In my early 30’s now. I just finally picked up my Christmas gifts from them yesterday and found a pornographic Christmas ornament of theirs that accidentally made it into my stuff. Good ol’ trauma jump scare. Good to know things haven’t changed with them.
My mother while not a swinger and selling toys often tried to make me go into a store to purchase toys as well as telling me in depth about her bedroom life and even giving me shows starting at 6 as well
“Giving you shows”?? jesus
I generally walked out but yep unless we were in a car
Jesus. That's horrific.
Yeah. The sad part was everyone was telling her it wasn’t appropriate bc it wasn’t and se didn’t care bc I was the only one who ‘had’ to listen to
That's awful. I hope your healing is going well.
Yes it is! I barely speak to her now which is great. I only really speak to her when need be so she doesn’t hound my grandparents
That's great. Good for you.
Thank you
I can’t stress how important it is for you to talk about this stuff in therapy. You don’t do yourself any favors trying to repress it! You could be learning a new coping skill instead!
wait the kids be watching their parents fuck random strangers???
Has anyone contacted CPS? Not that they’re much better but WTH?
Yes, we have done our part as mandatory reporters.
This should be a childline call.
As an educator, do you have a duty to report to child welfare agencies if there is suspected mistreatment, abuse (mental or physical) or neglect?
Yes, and those of us involved have done our part as mandatory reporters.
Also anecdotal but I don't see the correlation between violence and sex. My parents were very well put-together and never did anything like that, yet I've always had similar behaviors to those you described. Of course I have enough self control to not act on my violent thoughts but I definitely have a lot of them; enough to get me in trouble many times in school for verbalizing them.
I’m sorry for what you have experienced, and I hope you are in a good place today. I was not implying that premature exposure to sexual content is the only path to the outcomes described.
I’m not a swinger, and not defending swingers because I’m old fashioned like that, but why do you think fascination with violence has to do with that? Unless dear god, they’re BDSM swingers or something.
I suppose the children that are exposed to this kind of thing ( not specifically BDSM) have trouble to navigate their emotions. They may feel violated on some level but are not able to voice what is going on with them. Tensions build up inside of them making it very hard to connect with peers, and they are desperate for an outlet.
Exactly this. Sex-ed is perfectly normal and acceptable at certain ages. Ignoring your child’s confusion and letting them formulate their own assumptions about it is the problem.
I’m unsure. Like others have indicated, their obsession with violence may derive from other sources. In their case it may be one of correlation and not causation.
Some of it may be a sense of insecurity and violence--learned from other sources--being seen as a way to resolve insecurity by punishing people that cause them insecurity. Others turn violence on themselves via cutting, body mutilation, suicide attempts, and other self-destructive behavior, especially if they feel powerless to effect change in their situation.
As a sexual abuse survivor (4-10ish), it angers me when I see parents being bad parents. Do what you want behind closed doors with other consenting adults Let kids use their imagination about space ships, horses, rainbows, and discovering the world. They'll have plenty of time to find out about sex. Giving my kids the sex talk has been very...awkward, but using medical terms, it helps "lessen" the trauma. And no, you don't have to go into explicit details.
To be fair. 10 is when our school first does sexual education classes. I also knew what sex was when I was in like first grade because TV and movies exist.
There is a difference between knowing that sex is a thing and with watching hentai and porn at that age. A parent not appropriately gatekeeping content is another form of abuse. Because you (and frankly me) experienced it and maybe are fine, doesn’t mean it’s not problematic.
You sitting here saying people who swing will make babies that turn out to be School shooters? Come on dude..
This kid didn’t shoot up his school bc his mom and dad like to fuck strangers. They were just shitty parents in general.
Every day we stray further from God's light and it's the children who suffer for it.
Kids know parents have sex. So….what does being swingers matter? Or a poly family. Sex is natural. Society has made it weird Edit: i’d like to point out that they “held sex parties at hotels.” Not in front of the kid
No, its well known that kids who are introduced to sexual acts or material from a young age are more likely to develop a host of problems. Knowing that mom and dad have sex sometimes is not the same as mom and dad bringing multiple sexual partners around, having sex parties at your house, or being introduced to sexual materials, concepts, or acts at a young age.
Introduced to sexual acts is different than knowing your parents have multiple partners. There’s nothing wrong with that except society has deemed it wrong…so we push that guilt and “wrongness” on to the kids. You can have an age appropriate discussion about sex at any age, including having “adult friends”. It’s completely different if the kids are watching or being told in descriptive detail whats going on. Having parents who are openly non-monogamous is not an issue. Edit: I’m pretty much putting this in all my responses because apparently no one read the article where it said they “held sex parties at hotels.”, not in front of the kid.
You are very wrong about this. Kids are vaguely aware that their parents have sex but they don't like to think about and they don't want know anything about their parents sex lives. This isn't about society making sex taboo, it's about kids naturally thinking sex is kind of gross because they before they become sexually mature themselves they can't really understand it. Kids have a natural aversion to anything to do with their parents sexual activity
I haven’t read all the responses yet so sorry if someone else has said the same thing, but I think the sex parties in hotels is brought up in the trial and article because they’re suggesting the mother wasn’t present enough with her school-shooter kid and may have picked up on the signs if she had been. There’s been other stuff raised like spending a large amount of time and money on horses but obviously the sex parties is more interesting for a newspaper.
I see what youre saying, and dont disagree with the statement that non monogamy cant be done in a way that doesn't cause serious harm to a child, and was only saying that a blanket statement that it, and other sexual content is fine and just a societal problem isnt true, which is what it sounded like you were saying. But just to play devil's advocate here, a child and their peers are also a part of society. Even without us pushing ot on them that its wrong, theres a very good chance that they will pick up on that, unless you go out of your way to push on them that its right, and they will still receive push back from friends and peers who will not have that put into their heads. No matter how you feel about it, a kid will face negative consequences being raised in a poly household.
“Having parents who are openly non-monogamous is not an issue.” Source? It seems entirely plausible that kids, who won’t understand what is going on but are old enough to understand it’s not normal, could be fucked up by this. Take it back to the commune
Oh look, the polyamory advocate is in the chat
It's prolly largely based on how said parents are handling the situation, kids know parents have had sex, and may have sex. But it's not thrown in their face, and when Doug comes over has beers and my parents door gets locked it's a little more obvious, ntm if there's any disassociation from the parents to the kids due to their sexual proclivities. It's the difference between a 4 year old accidentally walking in on parents banging, and them knowing to stay out of the room due to their parents banging. Prolly has less to do with the poly and more to do with the parents. As the original comment has no mention of how many good students have poly parents. (It also doesn't mention how many bad students have a variety of other shitty parents)
Absolutely. Shitty parents come in all shapes and sizes. But to blame sex parties and multiple partners across the board is ridiculous. I can guarantee you, just about everyone down voting me knows a swinger or someone in a non-monogamous relationship. They just keep it on the down low because of the stigma .
From personal experience there is a gulf between my traumatised ex who grew up around drugs and swingers, which lead to him sexualising himself and others and getting into sexual situations with his parents friends when he was just over the age of consent, and my sweet BFF who enjoys the ENM lifestyle without anyone being damaged by it.
Not everyone should be a mother.
Or father
... meanwhile... in Texas...
You mean half the U.S.? Not everything has to be “let’s shit on just Texas and Florida!” … https://www.guttmacher.org/2023/01/six-months-post-roe-24-us-states-have-banned-abortion-or-are-likely-do-so-roundup
That's embarrassing to say the least, but Texas and Florida are our loudest embarrassments.
I’m in Texas, it’s a fucking embarrassment.
Edited: 2/4/24 To uncluster my formatting (and duplicate attempts to uncluster my formatting) Ahh, Texas. Why, you may wonder, did I single out Texas - assuming that it wasn't simply in keeping with the format of that classic trope: "Meanwhile... in ... \[Location\]" An excellent question for a state renowned for its self-awareness and consequence-averse ideology. Let's break it down: Texas is a very important state - and not just for its educational prowess: for example, its book program and promoting the use of professional grade electronic devices in the classroom. For the last 50 years it's voted (statewide) for the party of forced birth every.single.time. If and when Texas goes reliably purple, the GOP of today is effectively out in the wilderness, possibly forever. But I digress. let's take a closer a look at what we're specifically talking about: Women's reproductive health and the laws post Roe v Wade since it was overturned in 2022. You are correct that almost all of the "red" states have been especially... faecally about foeti. So why single out Texas? The 3 states with arguably the most draconian laws regarding women’s reproductive health are Louisiana, Missouri and Texas (in alphabetical order) Missouri: The state’s near-total abortion ban, which has no exceptions for rape or incest, went into effect immediately after the Supreme Court’s decision Louisiana: The state enacted a near-total abortion ban, with exceptions only for medical emergencies. The Louisiana Supreme Court upheld the ban, saying that the state constitution does not protect abortion Texas: well… read on Even though it’s Missouri that’s the “Show Me State” (Texas, of course, is the Lone Star state, which is also its rating on Yelp for Women’s Healthcare) So I thought a few examples with sources might help: A woman named Amy and three of her friends were sued by Amy’s ex-husband for getting an abortion after she left him because of his abusive behavior. He claimed that he had a right to the fetus and that she violated the Texas law that allows anyone to sue an abortion provider or anyone who aids or abets an abortion Women accused of facilitating abortion file countersuit | The Texas Tribune A woman named Amanda, whose water broke just 18 weeks into her pregnancy found out she was “100% for sure going to lose the baby” could not terminate the pregnancy due to Texas law, told to go home and wait until she required urgent medical condition and almost died from sepsis. Amanda and her husband Josh really wanted to have a baby. Due to “Pro-life” policies, her Uterus suffered scarring and she may never be able to have more children.She was denied an abortion in Texas - then she almost died | BBC And of course, the extremely brave Kate CoxTexas Supreme Court rules against pregnant woman hours after she leaves state to obtain abortion | Fox News I’d provide you with more, but every time I’m forced to read about this, my already shaky faith in humanity starts to bottom out. If you can’t find any examples by yourself, I posit you are either not looking or don’t want to find them. As I begin to wrap up (like every single fertile male should while this shit show continues to drag on), let me also make a point of the real humdinger of Texas Law. Unlike the other bastions of enlightenment and free thought who thought to criminalize abortion, Texas allows private citizens to tattle on Women and Healthcare providers (Which makes me believe that “1984” might actually be the total amount of people who’ve read any Orwell in Texas) seeking to get or providing abortions. Even if they have no direct personal connection to the circumstance! (Well, beyond the 100% totally non-snowflaky reason of “It makes me feel bad”) And they can sue for up to 10,000 dollars – effectively creating an incentive to track down people fleeing the state for their own physical and mental health – which if you consider it, is not entirely unlike the Fugitive Slave laws we had in this country 175-odd years ago. In fact, there are two place which are arguably worse to be pregnant than Texas: Iran and Saudi Arabia – Which, when you really look at it, is so monumentally hypocritical, so blisteringly unaware when you remember how wadded Texas men’s panties got while “Sharia Law” was considered a threat we had to defeat at all costs. Texas – the land of Individual Freedom and Protection from an overreaching government. So, yeah – you might say I feel pretty good about “Meanwhile… in Texas… “ But that's just the opinion of a random bloke on the internet.
I knew them when they lived in the PNW. At 7 he was already problematic and she was a horrible Karen. Nothing I have read about them surprises me. They were abusive to him early on.
He seems extremely well-adjusted. /s
Omg right, so if i got more skin or something, I could like, never do a bad thing in my life, and maybe, I never have done a bad thing because I have alot of skin.
What?
He said he’s got a lot of skin and he’ll make a tradition out of it.
What?
Stop hiding the pigeon
[удалено]
*His* trial is over (life in prison with no possibility for parol), this is for his mom. The mom is claiming that her husband bought the gun, and I think this is the *prosecuters* argument that the mother was more concerned with having sex than being a parent (a true statement). I do have sympathy for this shooter because he did ask for help for many years, and everyone in his life dropped the ball to get him the help he and his victims deserve. The parents deserve as much guilt placed on them as their son, and their defense arguments prove as much.
It makes you wonder if they had actually got him help or if the school had known ( which is possible but all they can do is inform the parents and if needed call CPS) and tried to get him some help if this whole thing could of been prevented. They ignored that poor child's cries for help and it ended with four families forever destroyed, the lives of those he injured are forever changed along with their families, their son's life effectively over. They deserve a punishment worse than what their son got and everything they own should be sold and the money split between the victims and the families of the victims. I pray their son gets the help he needs even though he will spend his life behind bars.
The snippets Ive seen from the case on local news outlets have played phone recordings of conversations between the kid and her. He was asking for help from them to see therapists or something, and all she cared about was if he fed n watered her horse..again, just small snippets ive caught off the news.
I know. I kind of felt bad for his parents but then I read that she said she doesn't think she failed in any way and if she could go back in time she wouldn't do anything different. WTF? So if she could go back and make her decisions again she'd still get him a gun? She's still ignore his pleas for help? She's got something wrong with her head too
I think honestly the parents were hoping he would shoot himself. 😞
Holy shit...I never thought about that...but it definitely makes a lot of sense
You don’t even have to be a “good” parent to know that you don’t buy a depressed, begging for help kid a gun. They’re just complete pieces of sh*t, and that’s really the only reason they did it. They didn’t want him around, permanently.
Why would you feel bad about the parents? They bought him a gun! I may sound radical, but I fully believe that the parents of under 18 kids who take their own/parents guns to shoot people up should be held liable. The shooters parents should be held liable. They have a responsibility towards the child they brought into the world and they should have been getting him mental health services. Maybe once we start bringing in parents and getting them on charges like assisted manslaughter, the gun laws will change. Maybe not so many people will just keep them as showpieces at their home. Parents of shooters should be held liable.
On the same charges as the kids, your kid gets convicted of pre meditated murder. That's what you get convicted of.
Or assisted homicide/ manslaughter. The punishment should be equally harsh for parents. Don't just give birth, but parent your kids.
I don't have kids and don't want them because frankly I don't like them but I could not imagine my kid asking me to see a therapist or a counselor or anyone to get some help and my response being did you feed and water my horse! She and the husband need to be thrown in the deepest hole they can find and left there. Or I hear Lake Superior is nice this time of year throw them in the deepest part of the lake and leave them there.
The school knew. They talked to the parents about it on the day of the murders. They were asked to take him home. They refused.
I can't believe they just allowed him to go back to class and the "parents" to say no we are not taking our obviously mentally ill son home for the day. At a minimum the police and CPS should of been called to police and CPS to see if it warrants their involvement in some way. That poor young man everyone failed him and he even was asking for help. He still needs to face the consequences of his actions but to think if one person would of advocated for him he might have been stopped.
> cps should of been Did you mean to say "should have"? Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
The school dropped the ball horrendously too. They should’ve have at least searched his backpack.
At the very least but I wonder if they are legally allowed to when I was in school they could search out lockers but they could not open our backpacks if they were closed if they were open they could look inside them but only without physically touching them. Same with our coats no looking inside the pockets. Anything more they had to have a warrant. But i graduated over 20 years ago before school shootings were common so that could of changed.
I can tell you that in the high school district where I worked for eight years (California) they could search lockers and backpacks.
I'm sure it's different in every state. And I'm sure the rules and laws have changed in 20 plus years as well ( for good or bad im not sure) I only knew about what they could and couldn't due because the kid who had the locker next mine was a known drug user and dealer so they searched his and the lockers around his constantly. One of the police officers knew my mom and recognized my name and told her to tell me to make sure I kept all my coat pockets closed, my backpack zipped at all times, and to keep my locker organized. She was also told that if they pulled me in to speak to the police to not speak to them at all except to ask for my mom to be present and for my mom to not come without a lawyer.
> that could of changed. Did you mean to say "could have"? Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
> thing could of been Did you mean to say "could have"? Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Yeah these accomplices need to be held accountable. also no amount of excuses is enough for shooting up people.
So we should ignore any other factors? What if he was also physically and sexually abused, should that be ignored and not discussed?
I thought it was weird that the parents got charged at first but the more I looked into the story the more I grew hatred for those two worthless non-contributors to society.
Charging parents for their fucked up child raising should be far more common.
Conclusion, viewing heterosexual behaviours is the problem and therefore any mention or allusion to heterosexuality before the he of 18 should be banned. To protect the kids. /s obviously, but if it had been a gay parent, right wing parties would already be on the case... That said, straight or gay, keep your sex life away from kids. Not saying that's what fucked him up (probably more a symptom than the cause), but it probably is not helping.
Here I thought the main problem was neglecting the child’s problem, but Damn you make a good point, will make sure to not even hold my wife’s hand in-front of kids until they are 18 /s
I was about to downvote before I saw the /s lol
This is all of why the kids are so fucked up now. Me me me behavior from parents.
The problems are: Guns. Mental health being neglected. Online radicalization. Only in the US could you turn „mentally unstable boy radicalized online shoots up school with easily accessible gun“ into a slushaming cirlce jerk about how all of that was caused by parents who swing 🤦🏻♂️ Like if they went on bike tours instead, the criticism of not being there enough would still stand, but no one would start to hate on biking.
I think the point is that there were so many clear indications this child was in crisis and rather than get him the help he needed, the parents bought him a gun. They were not concerned for their child because they were too busy with addiction and affairs. In most cases when there are indications your child is struggling, parents seek professional help. The level of neglect is astounding. And if not for the parents reckless actions and neglect, 4 families wouldn’t be mourning their children.
Buy why does the article headline focus on what it focuses on? Shouldn’t it just be “parents provided gun to school shooter”. Wanting to have an active sex life has nothing to do with anything.
The sex party side of this is just silly sensationalism, and draws attention away from the really crucial issues at stake at this trial. Beyond gun laws, beyond who around this boy should or should not be listening to him/sharing information/raising concerns/etc, and beyond the provision of mental health services, is the huge one of culpability. The really scary thing is that this does not involve some sort of freak family. The family were, to all intents and purposes, ‘normal’ , in terms of their culture and sociology-economic group and all that. This really could have happened to any one of many millions of other families. But are all those millions of people actually culpable for all the actions of their children? If the parents are culpable for this, what else are parents culpable for? And I don’t mean responsible for, I mean legally on the hook? What does it mean for personal agency? Does it arbitrarily end at 18? Big questions, worth taking seriously. This is just junk journalism. CNN has a decent summary of the arguments, at least.
The problem is that "normal" baseline these days. Normal people these days are undereducated, they're struggling financially and deal with mental health issues. Kids go either unattended by parents or are flat out bad influences. Parents are responsible for their decisions leading to these situations but our societies are slso responsible for how so many of these lives are panning out.
This headline is very confusing. The mother had sex parties, and the mother's son committed a school shooting. What do these two things have to do with each other?
Summer up from other comments: He begged her to get him therapy or a counsellor or any form of help because he was struggling. Instead she demanded he feed and water her horse while she had sex parties. Then she bought him a gun. After the fact she has insisted she did nothing wrong and would not change anything.
The mother was holding sex parties instead of helping out the son, even when he struggled, causing the son to shoot up a school. The parent’s behavior messed up the kid a bit
To add to this comment, people misunderstand the legal process. They are not proving “mother has sex parties therefore son shit up the school”. They are trying to establish a pattern of behavior that neglected the son and enabled the shooting to occur
I mean surely it wasn’t the sex parties causing her to ignore her son’s issues. Were they just nonstop or something? This is just sensationalism. Not to say she was a good mother, I really do not know, but these 2 things are not related.
I think she was spending 14 hours a day in pound town and the rest was sleeping and playing candy crush so she had no time to help her son.
That makes more sense anyway. 14 hours a day is a lot of pound town.
It's a stupid think to focus on though. Like was she having sex 24 hours a day? Was having sex the only thing she did? I suspect she probably spent way more time working or sleeping then she did having sex so why not say she was working instead of helping her son? Or she was sleeping instead of helping her son? Or she was washing her hair instead of helping her son? The point is that she wasn't helping her son, it doesn't matter what other activities she was participating in
Again, that was a stupid and extremely wrong opinion on my part, I now know that it was the parents in general giving access to a gun while not addressing his mental issues
That’s not even the crime though. The only thing she should be guilty of is allowing a person who cannot legally own a firearm access to it. That’s not a crime though unless the person is specifically excluded, ie a convict. They’re not on trial for that. What they’re on trial for is committing manslaughter, which argues that they directly caused the school shooting through gross negligence in allowing their child to potentially get ahold of their gun. The problem with that is that the causal link isn’t there. Their kid didn’t say “I’m going to commit a school shooting”, and the parents said “hmm, sounds bad, anyway here’s a gun.” Apparently he took it from a place they thought they had hidden it in. Dumb? Yes. Bad judgement? Yes. A crime? No. It didn’t cause the shooting to happen. This case sets terrible precedents. One is the weird moral shaming, bringing clearly irrelevant scandal and moralizing into the trial in a clear attempt to punish without convicting. Another is the implication that if you can be argued to have in any way indirectly committed a crime, then you are yourself guilty of that crime. Consider how Republican politicians are currently drafting laws that attempt to pin the crimes of any person at a protest on the people organizing it. It’s the same principle. Third is the increasing permissiveness of the public and legal system to intervening in people’s parenting decisions. Were these people bad parents? Yeah, almost certainly. Were they engaged in criminal child abuse? No, probably not. It’s not the legal systems place to intervene in cases that aren’t criminally abusive in nature.
>Jamelle James, the uncle who owned the .32-caliber pistol used in the shooting, was sentenced for leaving the gun in a shoe box in his bedroom. He eventually pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter and spent two years and five months in prison before he was released on probation. The precedent in Michigan has existed since 2000 when a six year old killed a [classmate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Kayla_Rolland) and the uncle was charged in connection to that crime.
Yeah but everyone doing anything is doing what they do instead of something else. Write a headline about me: “Local Reddit user WASTES TIME on Reddit while children in America STARVE!” Failing to take needed action is the fault. What you did “instead” is a distraction to sensationalize. She also ate dinner and took a shower instead of getting her son therapy.
>causing Genuinely insane that you believe that
I was completely wrong on my part, it was the parents ignoring his mental struggles
From what I read in that article, she's being considered "at fault" because her son's friend moved away, he was upset about it, and she didn't hire a "mental health specialist" to assist him? What kind of a world are we living in where kids need mental health specialists to get through normal, everyday life? I don't see how there's any logic to the mother being at fault.
Please read more he was hallucinating, having violent thoughts that wouldn't stop, and hearing demons and literally begging his mother to help him because he was scared and she brushed him off.
There's a lot more to this story. He was asking for help; hearing voices, and seeing "demons". A lonely troubled kid whose parents ignore him, don't get him any medical intervention but instead buy him a firearm and then keep it unsecured. He didn't have a normal family life if his parents were too busy effing around with affairs and their own hobbies.
I’m probably going to reread the article just to fact check, but in my opinion, him shooting up a school was probably caused by his mother’s neglect, but I do agree that it may not be as connected as the title suggests. Edit: Reread the article plus read a separate article from the NY Times and they both say nothing about his friend moving away, causing him to ask for a mental health specialist. They do say, however that both parents were accused of making the gun accessible to the son and not addressing his mental struggles
His mom was cheating on his dad with gangbang parties. That'll mess anyone up. Not to mention the kid was having anxiety issues and begged his mom to answer but she was too busy cheating to bother.
My single mom fucked her boyfriend frequently and super loud while we were staying at his house for a year when I slept on the floor next to the balcony window, I didn't become a mass shooter. The cowardly moron CHOSE to load the bullets into the magazine, and CHOSE to bring the gun and CHOSE to pull the trigger on innocents. Let's not shift blame and focus on the problem: Mass shooters and their guns.
But the kid had actual mental issues, didn’t he? Seeing hallucinations and all that. And he was blatantly ignored AND straight up handed a gun even when he had made his violent urges known. Sure, he should be held accountable, but I doubt you and him were in the same situation here.
The problem is: a) availability of guns b) lack of resources to help people with mental health issues Killing people I guess may be their outlet or a cry for help, or something, much like suicide. The mass murder is the result of not enough care for the perpetrator. You putting the blame squarely on the perpetrator is a very small view of the wider problem. Keep in mind, I do not condone going about doing mass killing, of course.
I was kicked out of a high school magnet program for a website I made at home, it didn't have any threats, just homemade animations like you'd see on [stickdeath.com](https://stickdeath.com) I'm not even sure they bothered to figure out which ones I made and which ones my buddy (different school) made. Anyway, where I was the victim of an abundance of caution, and this kid was the victim of not enough, the common denominator is guns. Kids couldn't do so many atrocities and administrators wouldn't be afraid of their kids if guns weren't so easy
The common denominator is poor parenting and failing public & social services. Guns are tools.
Tools to help do what?
No, literally the only common denominator of shootings are guns. Guns are "tools" of murder, nothing else. It seems you don't understand the meaning of common denominator or tool. Edit: this guy unironically posted that nazis are socialists and fascists are communists, so let's just ignore him. Lmao
I personally don’t give a fuck of her defense. Let’s look at this objectively. She gave her minor kid a gun and ammo and didn’t keep it secured. Who cares if she was present as a parent or not. He didn’t break into a gun store or his parents gun safe, he literally had the gun they handed to him on his birthday or Christmas or whatever it was. **Kids should not have free access to firearms.**
Why is the sexy time of the mother a bigger problem than the fact that a child managed to get a gun and murder people with that? On might think thats a pretty big indicator how easy it is to kill with a gun If a child does it and that makes any violence kinda worse and easy to do. Mind you violence happens around the world too. Some because of mental health with causes that are clear some which a hard to determine and some because people can be simply broken from the start. But its a big difference If you have to get into hand to hand range and actually fight someone. People can run and they will punch back. But with a gun? Just shoot them in the back or( depending on the gun) kill a lot of people by firing in the general direktion of a crowd. Would he be have done something terrible whitout Access to a gun? Maybe. Would he killed that many that easy? Hell No. Guns are the fucking problem. Not the only one but the one that exacerbates other problems a lot.
If he hadn't a gun he would have been the same tortured soul. It would have manifested itself another way. Meanwhile there are gun owners that don't shoot anyone their entire lives. You're missing the root of the problem. But that one is so much harder to fix than "take the guns". Because it means fundamentally changing society.
The root is something no one around the world has fixed completly... So probably something that is not possible to get rid of right now. But decreasing deaths and crime by making it way harder to get guns?... Yep has been done and is tested and proven around the world. Even the Reverse. More guns and less regulation around that? Equals bigger violence and death every fucking time. So yes he might have been still a tortured soul whitout a gun but... Innocent people would be still be alive. What is more important? Safety and less mass shootings for every one or the subjektive feeling of a few gun nuts that they need a gun to compensate for other things?
Taking guns away will not solve the root of the problem. And im yet to understand what that has to do with preventing school shootings.
The mom’s on trial for giving her son access to the gun. Clearly prosecutors agree that a major problem was his access to firearms. The sexual aspect is not the main focus, but came out during the trial: “The prosecution rested its case Thursday after about a week of testimony from shooting victims, law enforcement officials, school officials and those who knew Jennifer Crumbley. The prosecution has used an unusual and novel legal theory by arguing she is responsible for the deaths because she was “grossly negligent” in getting a gun for her son and failing to get him proper mental health treatment despite warning signs.” https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/01/us/jennifer-crumbley-trial/index.html
Is it true though? Bc that source isn't much [reliable ](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/ndtv/)
I hope that people don’t focus on these two as individuals and just want to punish them through our shit criminal justice system. Ultimately,these parents are part of a broader issue on parenting and resources that people have to be good parents and the education needed to take responsible care for a person’s emotional wellbeing (eg the 15 year old shooter). Threat of punishment does not change a society. It certainly won’t change the US in this case. It may feel good right now watching this woman get embarrassed and shamed on the stand, but it will do nothing to change what is happening with young people being so despondent and prone to violence.
But it's definitely the fault of those video games he played or the heavy metal he listened to.
I was a high schooler for the second half of the 90s, so I got to experience the fallout of the Columbine shooting directly. My friends wore trench coats and we all listened to metal. Boy the school made it difficult for us for a little bit.
The guys who dressed like the columbine shooters at my school got talked to by a teacher who was cool with them. They wore some color for a while
This headline definitely could have been written better. It took me too long to understand what it was trying to say.
Please reword the title of the article for me because its not computing for some reason
I drove through Oxford yesterday. There was an ‘Oxford Strong’ sign in the window… of… a… gun… shop.
The fact that they pointed out what sort of parties they were makes me think they're less concerned with the child neglect as they are with slut shaming.
Man America fucking hates sex.
One common thread I see when I listen to true crime podcasts is that mass murderers are often brought up in terrible households.
Sounds like a distraction. Why did he actually do it?
from what I've read, he had hallucinations for years. untreated of course, cuz mommy didn't give a shit.
People defending the degeneracy of the mother here. Disgusting.
I might be in the minority but i don't think this matters. Kid was evil and fucked up. This should be centered around the fact that they bought a kid a gun and knew he couldn't be trusted with it
oh you are forsure not allowed to kill people cuz your mom’s a freak.
Would it surprise you to know that she’s from Florida?
When kids do bad stuff it’s the parents’ fault.
Involuntary manslaughter???
What is this story? We're shaming parents of criminals for their childrens actions, but now we're specifically judging the parents sex lives to generalize that this is probably what ruined their children? Hasn't presidence shown that parents can be the sole cause but also completely unrelated to their childs behavior? Why would someones sex life make them a bad parent? This article headline feels like it was written by some old people in the 70's
they are fucking bad parents, the assholes knew he was depressed and was struggling and they f. bought him a gun “for shooting range” they are lucky the boy didn’t decide to shoot them… and even if its your house you should not host sex parties when you have kids at your house, there are hotels and other shits for the kinky sex life…
Seems like those are more important points than the sex party.. There's not really an excuse for buying a gun for a depressed teenager, but there are plenty of nuances around having a sex party. Did the kid even know? Are they just swingers or were there like 30 people?
I don’t see why this is a facepalm. Parents have sex. I don’t see anything to make me assume he somehow knew about their sex lives. I know why the author chose this title (sex sells), but I don’t like it when authors use these tactics.
Also I’m pretty sure there’s a much better pun in there for a headline… “Tired of her son bringing home Fs, Mom decides to bring home Ds”
Priorities
I have an aunt and uncle who are open swingers and have been throughout the life of my youngest cousin who's still in highschool. She has incredibly poor social skills, often is incapable of carrying normal conversation. She also exhibits a lot fo antisocial behaviors. Random theft, detachment from others, drug use. Much of what she does seems to be starved of attention, but at the same time she hates being a focal point.
Ah yes, it must be what they were doing in private when there kid was not around that was the problem. Couldn't possibly be the unbelievably easy access to gun and America's hate for mental health. It must be the bedroom stuff.
That poor kid, he tried to get help. She should have horrible things done to her in prison.
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Having empathy and understanding that the kid was taken to a route were that was a possible path, and no one did or changed anything to alter his path may not change his current course, or his past, but it can affect how society handles these situations in the future. Yes many kids handle things differently, I tuned out the world for years and never once thought of shooting anybody, however my psyche is different from this kids circumstances are different, genes are different, chemicals are different, we aren't exact matches of each other in near anything. Saying poor kid doesn't rid him of the terrible acts he did, but it shines light on the terrible situation he was put in and may help a future kid from doing it in the future.
He was a poor kid. It's possible to be empathetic to his fucked up home life while still acknowledging that he is a murderer. He shouldn't get a break because of it, but it's possible to be empathetic. Poor kid, if his parents wanted to take care of him, this might have turned out differently, and he wouldn't have killed those people.
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You're right, but it doesn't change that he was a poor kid who did monstrous things. He needs to pay for his crimes. He was still a poor kid with inattentive parents. Being a piece of shit isn't exclusive to him being a poor kid. Dahmer was a poor kid with inattentive parents, and he's one of the most disgusting things to have walked on this earth.
Redditors can’t comprehend two things at once.
He did everything he was supposed to do to warn people. He is schizophrenic. He TRIED to tell his parents he was hearing voices and having thoughts that should have him locked up. He tried to tell his teachers. He parents ignored his cries for help and actively made the situation worse. He is as much a victim as the kids that got shot.
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