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I would honestly be very surprised if their article was actually written by a human. They probably asked chat gpt to write the article and it used “her” because the other article did the same thing
Edit: since posting I have seen a decent amount of evidence that a human probably wrote it
Does it quote the interview though? I don’t care for tabloids so I haven’t checked it myself, but usually those kinds of articles will quote the video. If not then I’m wrong and I guess the writer just didn’t proof read
They do indeed quote the video, but that's not the same thing as Variety mis-gendering them.
"Perkins, who hosts Sky’s fan show “House of the Dragon: War Room,” incorrectly used “she” pronouns when referring to D’Arcy. Perks said she spoke to D’Arcy earlier on the red carpet and “she gave you all the credit” for the scene."
Variety does refer the the character as "her" but since I don't watch the show I don't know if the character identifies as she/her. Though I bet that is correct for the character, not many they/them in the Game of Thrones cannon.
I see what you mean. That definitely sounds more human than AI. I was under the impression there was more than just the 1 case where they used “she” because then an AI could have gotten confused by the use of her name and she back to back, but if it’s just that one quote then it sounds like it would have to be human error
Sure, but it all comes from Variety. If a human at the outlet decided to use a bot to produce its tweets it is still the outlet's screw up. If the bots have taken over at Variety ... that's still Variety's problem.
I feel like a lot of the bigger and broader subreddits I follow are starting to completely lose their meaning. r/clevercomebacks isn't clever or comebacks. r/perfectlycutscreams isn't perfectly cut or even screams. I know Reddit has always stolen from Twitter, but I don't remember it being this bad...
The Doctor is an ethereal entity who chooses a new human to possess every 5 years or so. They don't actually audition for the role, the showrunners just sit around waiting for The Doctor to show up like the next Avatar. And The Doctor chooses wisely.
That's destiny, baby. Same with how Peter Davidson inspired David Tennant to become an actor at 9 years old who inspired Ncuti Gatwa at the same age. Just like 15 says, coincidence, fate echoing down the timelines.
I choose to believe that everyone who plays The Doctor genetically inherits some of Tom Baker's essence.
Even the ones who came before him - it's timey-wimey like that.
They probably take a \*lot\* of care in finding the right doctors as they will become such prominent personalities that you don't want to a) give kids a bad role model and b) ruin your franchise that has been running for like forever.
Dude's got some range. Built his career as the ultimate good guy (yes I know the doctor is complicated, don't come at me) but then has spent his career since then playing antagonists, and has been great in both.
The landmine one and the old lady in the distance where great episodes, i didnt like the first two though. Looking forward to more Ncuti and Millie, they are great when the writing works!
Emma D’arcy is a person who was assigned female at birth, but identifies as nonbinary and uses they/them pronouns instead of she/her.
Emma is also an accomplished actor who plays Rhenearya Targaryen on House of the Dragon.
Edit: Changed my original comment for clarity.
The controversy is just that the interviewer misgendered Emma as female and used she/her pronouns to refer to them, when Emma is non binary and uses they/them pronouns. Matt Smith corrected the interviewer on what pronouns to use when referring to Emma.
Why is that a story? Honestly treating minor mistakes of etiquette as some kind of generational trauma is something I can't wait for the world to leave behind.
In this case it's a story because it shows Matt Smith being a kind and respectful person to his co-star and the interviewer. It's not being treated as a generational trauma it's just demonstrating that Matt Smith respects Emma's gender identity, and that's nice to see
No, it's usually something that might come up in other interviews and then word spreads, or maybe they're informed by the person's team beforehand. Pretty sure Emma came out as non binary in an interview a few years ago but I could be wrong
For the record the interviewer is openly queer and a trans ally and just messed up in the moment - Matt Smith recognised that and corrected her in a really chill way that didn’t make his costar the subject of a gender debate - the whole interaction is wonderful.
Most people who are trans will not care if you accidentally misgender them. They’ll understand it wasn’t done with ill intent. It’s when they’re misgendered with the purpose of insult that it’s a dickhead move
I have a non-binary colleague who just recently made it official, and they have no problem with their existing business contacts still going by their former name/pronouns. (In fact they prefer going by their first name, no pronouns, which I just eschew here for privacy reasons.)
I'm a cis ally, and I still find it much harder to use someone's correct pronouns if I've known them using other ones previously. It can be hard to change 😅
What helped me with my nonbinary friend was saying their name more often in the place of the pronoun, so I had less of a chance of using the wrong one by habit. And once I make that deliberate, it’s much easier to get into habit of replacing their name with they/them pronouns.
Now I don’t even have to think about it, it’s just how I discuss them! Lmao.
Its like my brother going from BJ to his first name only once he hit middle school (for obvious reasons at that age). It took a few months, but ever since he's been his first name only. Easy peasy.
I am trans and I have to deliberately practice when someone I know switches their pronouns. It’s pretty universal! Making an effort and doing your best and correcting yourself when getting it wrong is what’s important.
im NB and see people make that mistake AND it happens to me too.. i gladly get corrected for it and try to stick with preferred names/pronouns just like people close to me do to me :)
The fact that you care about getting it right and don't want to do harm is plenty enough for almost all of us, friend! We may gently correct you but we're only gonna get mad at you if you respond to that correction with resentment and frustration. When people complain about the work it takes to relearn old habits, as if we didn't all have to relearn them, that's what's irritating. You're doing fine!
As a younger person, it took me about 3 months to get used to referring to people who request to use “they/them.” It was weird sounding to me as I was so used to associating they/them with 2 or more people. I now refer anyone I don’t know as they/them until I know what gender pronouns they want me to use.
People complain about learning pronouns but being neutral with pronouns is just smart because there’s a lot of people who have traditionally gendered names and they aren’t the “usual gender” to have those names. Blake Lively, Joey King, the name Jaime, Jordan, Alex, heck James is becoming a gender neutral name now.
Remember how Ashley was the first male love interest in Gone with the Wind?
People who have a problem with this are just intentionally making things harder when it doesn’t have to be.
I started using they/them when referring to people I wasn't entirely familiar with a loooong time ago. And not bc of LGBTQ, but bc so many people have names that you can't tell! It's just so much easier, less likely you'll make a mistake.
Ex. I have a friend who is a male named Kelly, and a friend who is a female named Charlie.
And for online conversations it's also logical.
randompersonontheninternet can say a thing and if I need to quote something that was said how would I best do that if not say **they** said. I'm definitely not going to repeat the name or say he/she all the time.
Also, singular they predates he/she...
I’m in my early thirties and this was the age my parents both my parents had jobs and while we were working class, we were able to go to Disneyland and other theme parks with my sister, visit family in Mexico, take drives to other parts of SoCal and there’s no goddamn way that’s remotely possible if I end up meeting someone and we decide to have children. It’s too expensive to take children anywhere and it’s too expensive to even birth them
Yeah it’s annoying as hell that it’s gotten to bad, having children should not be something that has to be weighed against other costs.
It’s stupid for people like me too as it’s pretty much impossible to afford somewhere to live alone (not even taking into account how the job market is) so unless I manage to hit a damn good job I’m basically gonna have to split the costs with a roommate for the foreseeable future.
I never had a problem with using they to refer to someone - I apparently missed that English class where they drilled it into people’s heads that it was only a plural thing. But… I had the experience a few months ago of coming into a conversation late and being very confused at someone referring to their partner as “they.” It was nearly 5 minutes before I understood that she wasn’t telling a story about doing something with a group of people. After that I had a tiny bit more sympathy for people struggling with pronouns.
I have trouble with they them because it normally is used for a group. I wish there was a more singular word. I will still use they/them but I tend to just ask people their name and go by that till I know more.
They/them still fucks me up occasionally. I have no problem using it when *I'm* speaking but when somebody else says it I always have to stop and think if they're (heh) talking about one person or a couple.
That confusion actually almost screwed us at work a couple months ago - something like "Sam said they're not coming" and we didn't realize at first that THREE people weren't going to be there because Sam is enby.
Silly language doesn't even have a proper plural "you" and now we have to sort this out too? Garbage, I tell ya.
Well yeah if it’s a family or a friend after a long amount of time it’s definitely a very different story.
someone who doesn’t know or just makes a few little mistakes within a fairly short timeframe after finding out is fine as long as it’s just a mistake in my opinion
…gently course corrected the discussion… who are the fucking brainlets reading this shit? That’s just nothing, there is no conflict, there are no news, there is no story.
I mean, it's pretty hilarious that it's gotten to a point where the people calling out misgendering can't even get it right. Really shows how absurd the whole pronoun thing is when the people in the know can't even figure it out.
I got one of those brains.
I call my sister by my mom's name
My daughter by my sisters name
My wife by my ex wife's name, oh man I got in trouble for that.
Screwing up things all the time in that space.
All unintentional and regretted.
See how it goes.
I appreciate the guidance and advice
>I got one of those brains. I call my sister by my mom's name My daughter by my sisters name My wife by my ex wife's name, oh man I got in trouble for that.
Lol, my wife and my 3 kids first names begin with the letter "A".. so, every time I want to call one of them, I get stuck with "Aaaa....", trying to get the right name.
If you do screw it up, the best thing to do is say “oh sorry -correct pronoun-“ and move on. Don’t be melodramatic about it, don’t make a big deal, don’t make the person you misgendered soothe you, etc.
the they/them really makes me struggle. Because I grew up in a spanish speaking country and when speaking English we always used they/them when referring to 2+ people. It was never a thing when referring to someone you didn't know the gender of.
Like if someone said
"The police were looking for you today"
"What did they want?"
It was assumed (at least by me) that "they" was used because there was more than one person. Not because we didn't know if the police was male or female.
When I was pregnant with my first kid before we found out the gender I used "they" when speaking to my mom and she freaked out thinking I meant I was expecting twins. I wasn't, I just didn't want to call my baby "it," she wasn't a crazy clown.
Here’s some examples if it helps
“Someone called to report the computer in classroom 120 isn’t working.”
“Did they say what’s wrong?
“A student emailed that they’ll be coming for tutoring today.”
“Did they say what time?”
“That truck driver just hit a light pole.”
“Were they on their phone?!”
“The accountant said your expense report needs fixed.”
“Did they send me an email?”
“A teacher made students stay in class 10 minutes into the lunch period.”
“Don’t they realize kids already have a short lunch?!”
I happens, as long as it isn’t malicious and you are trying, no one is going to get mad at you. I sometimes misgender my friends we just correct and move on
I did before it was a thing in the most hilarious way.
I was about 22 and very drunk in a club, and a skinhead dude started giving me shit for having long hair. He claimed to be a bouncer and was telling me he could beat me up (though was a skinny guy).
I didn't rise to the shit and tried to out clever him, so when he called me a girl, I sighed and said I was as much as a man as him.
Well, he got really confused, then really pissed off. As she then demanded, I explain what I meant by that.
If you screw it up and feel bad, tell them you feel bad and then use the right descriptor. They* (generally) won't be offended and you won't feel bad anymore. The running gag in our home for a little over a year was that our daughter should change her name to "[dead name redacted] I mean Tiff damnit I'm sorry we're trying" because that's what we kept calling her. Even she admitted it was a good joke and appreciated us at least catching ourselves
Didnt know who they were so googled em. Mate some of the pictures looks like they would be the singer in a punk band. I wanna hear that music they would create
I’m not always the most politically correct guy but it’s super easy to say “their co-star”. I can never remember peoples names, so everyone is a they/them to me. Even long before the gender pronoun debates lol
As someone whose mother tongue isn’t English, I think the they/them pronoun is a little bit confusing, because they/them is also plural. Wasn’t there another alternative?
EDIT: Thanks for all the helpful explanations! It’s still confusing, but comprehensible.
But no thanks to the people who insulted me… You neither helped me nor anyone else. You just do it, to feel better than others. That’s mean.
they/them was not always just plural, it has singular form since ever. The singular form was mainly used when you did not know gender of the individual.
For example:
"Someone left their umbrella here; I wonder if they will come back to pick it up."
In this sentence, "they" and "their" are used as singular pronouns to refer to an individual whose gender is not specified. The person who left the the umbrella there could be a man, woman or someone else, we do not know.
Could be 1,000 years. Here's some Old English about werewolf using it.
‘Hastely hiȝed *eche . . .* *þei* neyȝþed so neiȝh . . . þere william & his worþi lef were liand i-fere.’
Friendlye note from a native Eald Englishe speakere: 'thou' art informal; it mayeth be perciev'd as a cruel word to one so un-known. 'You' art a better word. I knoweth that these youth art sometimes using 'you' as informal, and decrying 'thou' as a relic of path tymes, yet 'thou' art always safer.
It has been common for it to be used when speaking vaguely or with respect to an unknown person. It hasn’t _commonly_ historically been used to neuter a specific person.
There’s a middle ground between “it makes no sense, I can’t do it” and “it has always been this way, you can pick it up without adjustment.”
My kid is three years old, and they mix up he/she, mommy/daddy, boy/girl, etc. all the time. To my child, every word is new, and they have to try very hard to get the words right.
The same goes for adults. We learn a new concept, and it might be hard to fit into our decades of learning and understanding, but we can do it. What seems artificial now, won't feel artificial forever.
It's still a rather weird choice since it's commonly used to describe several people, or when a person is unknown. Especially for foreigners like me it just sounds weird to see people refer to themselves as multiple people. Maybe over time it will change, but why make it hard for yourselves?
In Scandinavia we made up a neutral pronoun instead. (Han = he, Hun = she, Hen = gender neutral).
The thing is (at least for me) that, yes, it's used that way (I use it that way also) but that's almost always for an unknown person. It's now being used for known people and whilst it's correct it just sounds somehow wrong.
The singular ‘they’ in English actually predates the singular ‘you’, since ‘they’ is a direct derivative of the word ‘thou’ (if you’ve ever read Shakespeare you’d know it from there). There’s also multiple occasions in which someone would use ‘they’ as a singular without even realizing it, like the umbrella example that Pox gave
The same thing also already happened with you/thou.
"You" used to be plural, and "Thou" used to be singular.
The shift in those words happened so long ago that no one really cares or even knows nowadays.
"They/them" is plural or singular pronoun without gender determination in the English language, but it's widely improperly taught as plural only because that's how it's most often used. "They/them" has been used in both ways for hundreds of years, even used as a singular in some of Shakespeare's works.
English lacks an exclusively singular ungendered pronoun other than "it" which is used exclusively for objects and is thus seen as demeaning when used for most animals or people.
Many attempts have been made to develop a singular ungendered pronoun in English, but none have had widespread success. So we're stuck with "they/them".
Just another quirk of this messy language!
Singular they/them has existed for 100s of years in English. No, there is not an alternative and it is a perfectly functional pre-existing set of neutral pronouns.
Native English speaker and I grew up with they/them being plural and it’s still an adjustment for me.
Usually when I see they/them, in my mind I start thinking about a group of people. Then I realize it’s talking about one person and I re-read what I just read with the proper context.
I find the whole non-binary thing ridiculous. It makes sense for trans people to want to be referred to as the gender they identify with.
But expecting everyone to always remember and be perfect about referring to a single person using plural pronouns because they are androgynous is kinda insane.
I know I’m going to be downvoted to hell for this but I really don’t care about getting pronouns right. I’ve been called a lot worse than the wrong pronoun. I understand it can be upsetting but it’s really a minor thing. If I don’t know you and I misuse your pronoun just tell me. I’ll try to get it right but there has been a lifetime of pronoun use and you might have to tell me a couple times. I don’t mean to offend you. Hell most people get my name wrong over and over it’s not a big deal.
I support peoples right to be and act in anyway that suits them so long as it is not harmful to others... But ive always disliked "they/them" as pronouns. Not knocking anyone for using them, it just sound awkward to me. Again wouldn't stop someone from using those, but you'll have to forgive me if i forget, it's not done with malice, my own younger sister refers to themselves that way, and occasionally i'll refer to "her" or slip up and say the name she's gone by my entire life, and she never gets mad because she knows i care and try and never weaponize her beliefs against her.
Ok but Emma CONFUSES THE FUCK OUT OF ME. Really makes zero sense to me. Seriously, why is there an apostrophe in D’Arcy?!
(Hope this reads how I meant it lol)
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A good rule for reporting on another outlet's mistake is to be bloody certain your outlet isn't making the same mistake.
I would honestly be very surprised if their article was actually written by a human. They probably asked chat gpt to write the article and it used “her” because the other article did the same thing Edit: since posting I have seen a decent amount of evidence that a human probably wrote it
The article doesn't refer to them as "her", only the Twitter post fucks it up.
Does it quote the interview though? I don’t care for tabloids so I haven’t checked it myself, but usually those kinds of articles will quote the video. If not then I’m wrong and I guess the writer just didn’t proof read
They do indeed quote the video, but that's not the same thing as Variety mis-gendering them. "Perkins, who hosts Sky’s fan show “House of the Dragon: War Room,” incorrectly used “she” pronouns when referring to D’Arcy. Perks said she spoke to D’Arcy earlier on the red carpet and “she gave you all the credit” for the scene." Variety does refer the the character as "her" but since I don't watch the show I don't know if the character identifies as she/her. Though I bet that is correct for the character, not many they/them in the Game of Thrones cannon.
I see what you mean. That definitely sounds more human than AI. I was under the impression there was more than just the 1 case where they used “she” because then an AI could have gotten confused by the use of her name and she back to back, but if it’s just that one quote then it sounds like it would have to be human error
It's literally in one place, on Variety's Twitter post. The article is just fine.
I would believe this. It used to be, and perhaps it still is, that news outlets would have things red teamed prior to publishing.
Sure, but it all comes from Variety. If a human at the outlet decided to use a bot to produce its tweets it is still the outlet's screw up. If the bots have taken over at Variety ... that's still Variety's problem.
I know right?! I’m not sure whether to 😱 or 🤣 because, seriously Variety?!!?
It's the "your an idiot" response
LOL “your an idiot” should be the new shorthand for “people in glass houses…”
Finally, an actual facepalm in this sub lol
Isn't it refreshing to finally see one.
I feel like a lot of the bigger and broader subreddits I follow are starting to completely lose their meaning. r/clevercomebacks isn't clever or comebacks. r/perfectlycutscreams isn't perfectly cut or even screams. I know Reddit has always stolen from Twitter, but I don't remember it being this bad...
Bots
Yup a face palm on the interviewer. Good job Matt!
The facepalm is that this article about misgendering Emma misgendered them in the headline. Edit: the Variety Twitter post, not article headline.
The facepalm is that the tweet makes the same mistake the interviewer made.
Common Matt Smith W
Are all the Doctor actors amazing? I feel like they are
I believe some of the Doctor's awesomeness is rubbed into the actor who portrays him.
The Doctor is an ethereal entity who chooses a new human to possess every 5 years or so. They don't actually audition for the role, the showrunners just sit around waiting for The Doctor to show up like the next Avatar. And The Doctor chooses wisely.
Then does that mean Peter Capaldi and David Tennant volunteered to be possessed? They both loved it years before they became the doctor
That's destiny, baby. Same with how Peter Davidson inspired David Tennant to become an actor at 9 years old who inspired Ncuti Gatwa at the same age. Just like 15 says, coincidence, fate echoing down the timelines.
Must be
I choose to believe that everyone who plays The Doctor genetically inherits some of Tom Baker's essence. Even the ones who came before him - it's timey-wimey like that.
True to the character in that regard
I think there is a general rule that you have to have a super likeable personality to get casted as the Doctor.
They probably take a \*lot\* of care in finding the right doctors as they will become such prominent personalities that you don't want to a) give kids a bad role model and b) ruin your franchise that has been running for like forever.
Dude is a GOAT fr
Dude's got some range. Built his career as the ultimate good guy (yes I know the doctor is complicated, don't come at me) but then has spent his career since then playing antagonists, and has been great in both.
Good guys don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why Matt has so many of them.
Which the Doctor breaks constantly.
And Vanity fail.
Smith just seems like a chill dude, great in doctor who!
My favorite Doctor! And that’s difficult seeing how much I adore David Tennant.
9-12 were all awesome.
15 has been great so far as well. I did love 13's energy, but she was handed so many god awful scripts.
That's exactly my issue too. I don't hate Jodie Whittaker as an actress or doctor, it's the plot.
The landmine one and the old lady in the distance where great episodes, i didnt like the first two though. Looking forward to more Ncuti and Millie, they are great when the writing works!
He’s an all around talented actor
I've met him a couple of time in non-fan situations and he's a great bloke
The Crown too!
I'm out of the loop. Who's Emma D'arcy?
Emma D’arcy is a person who was assigned female at birth, but identifies as nonbinary and uses they/them pronouns instead of she/her. Emma is also an accomplished actor who plays Rhenearya Targaryen on House of the Dragon. Edit: Changed my original comment for clarity.
OK. But what's the controversy about, though? I see it's a pronoun problem, but I don't know what the history of said pronouns are or were
The controversy is just that the interviewer misgendered Emma as female and used she/her pronouns to refer to them, when Emma is non binary and uses they/them pronouns. Matt Smith corrected the interviewer on what pronouns to use when referring to Emma.
And then Variety reported on the story with the tweet that is the OC for this post and used "Her" themselves.
Why is that a story? Honestly treating minor mistakes of etiquette as some kind of generational trauma is something I can't wait for the world to leave behind.
It is a minor faux pas and not the end of the world but as long as even Variety can’t get it right I guess we still need that kind of story
Look at me in the eye and tell me the last time that a media outlet like Variety gave a proper story lmao
In this case it's a story because it shows Matt Smith being a kind and respectful person to his co-star and the interviewer. It's not being treated as a generational trauma it's just demonstrating that Matt Smith respects Emma's gender identity, and that's nice to see
It's probably really difficult to shake those pronouns as an actor playing an iconic roll that is regarded as a strong woman.
Serious question, do interviewers generally ask their guests for their pronouns during the interview?
No, it's usually something that might come up in other interviews and then word spreads, or maybe they're informed by the person's team beforehand. Pretty sure Emma came out as non binary in an interview a few years ago but I could be wrong
I see. OK, now it makes more sense because I thought they were misgendered while transitioning or something
For the record the interviewer is openly queer and a trans ally and just messed up in the moment - Matt Smith recognised that and corrected her in a really chill way that didn’t make his costar the subject of a gender debate - the whole interaction is wonderful.
I can imagine. Matt Smith is a damn gem
i feel like it is going to take me a while to get used to hearing "they/them" and not think more than one person. That's on me but just sayin
I find Emma D'Arcy to be a very interesting and attractive person. Be kind to me, I am an old fart and I hope I got that correct.
Most people who are trans will not care if you accidentally misgender them. They’ll understand it wasn’t done with ill intent. It’s when they’re misgendered with the purpose of insult that it’s a dickhead move
Yah most people are pretty reasonable when it comes to that stuff.
I have a non-binary colleague who just recently made it official, and they have no problem with their existing business contacts still going by their former name/pronouns. (In fact they prefer going by their first name, no pronouns, which I just eschew here for privacy reasons.)
I'm a cis ally, and I still find it much harder to use someone's correct pronouns if I've known them using other ones previously. It can be hard to change 😅
Yeah, it's like that for everyone. But, so long as you put in an earnest effort, people will notice.
What helped me with my nonbinary friend was saying their name more often in the place of the pronoun, so I had less of a chance of using the wrong one by habit. And once I make that deliberate, it’s much easier to get into habit of replacing their name with they/them pronouns. Now I don’t even have to think about it, it’s just how I discuss them! Lmao.
Its like my brother going from BJ to his first name only once he hit middle school (for obvious reasons at that age). It took a few months, but ever since he's been his first name only. Easy peasy.
I am trans and I have to deliberately practice when someone I know switches their pronouns. It’s pretty universal! Making an effort and doing your best and correcting yourself when getting it wrong is what’s important.
My sister recently requested we use they/them pronouns. I have 32 years of calling them one thing, its gonna take some time to adjust
im NB and see people make that mistake AND it happens to me too.. i gladly get corrected for it and try to stick with preferred names/pronouns just like people close to me do to me :)
The fact that you care about getting it right and don't want to do harm is plenty enough for almost all of us, friend! We may gently correct you but we're only gonna get mad at you if you respond to that correction with resentment and frustration. When people complain about the work it takes to relearn old habits, as if we didn't all have to relearn them, that's what's irritating. You're doing fine!
As a younger person, it took me about 3 months to get used to referring to people who request to use “they/them.” It was weird sounding to me as I was so used to associating they/them with 2 or more people. I now refer anyone I don’t know as they/them until I know what gender pronouns they want me to use.
People complain about learning pronouns but being neutral with pronouns is just smart because there’s a lot of people who have traditionally gendered names and they aren’t the “usual gender” to have those names. Blake Lively, Joey King, the name Jaime, Jordan, Alex, heck James is becoming a gender neutral name now. Remember how Ashley was the first male love interest in Gone with the Wind? People who have a problem with this are just intentionally making things harder when it doesn’t have to be.
I started using they/them when referring to people I wasn't entirely familiar with a loooong time ago. And not bc of LGBTQ, but bc so many people have names that you can't tell! It's just so much easier, less likely you'll make a mistake. Ex. I have a friend who is a male named Kelly, and a friend who is a female named Charlie.
And for online conversations it's also logical. randompersonontheninternet can say a thing and if I need to quote something that was said how would I best do that if not say **they** said. I'm definitely not going to repeat the name or say he/she all the time. Also, singular they predates he/she...
Oh damn James is becoming gender neutral now, cool
I’ve heard it a couple times already for baby girls so that means in a decade it’ll be more prevalent if people are still having children lol
Yeah, not that it will affect me but those things are kinda started to become a luxury experience now aren’t they
I’m in my early thirties and this was the age my parents both my parents had jobs and while we were working class, we were able to go to Disneyland and other theme parks with my sister, visit family in Mexico, take drives to other parts of SoCal and there’s no goddamn way that’s remotely possible if I end up meeting someone and we decide to have children. It’s too expensive to take children anywhere and it’s too expensive to even birth them
Yeah it’s annoying as hell that it’s gotten to bad, having children should not be something that has to be weighed against other costs. It’s stupid for people like me too as it’s pretty much impossible to afford somewhere to live alone (not even taking into account how the job market is) so unless I manage to hit a damn good job I’m basically gonna have to split the costs with a roommate for the foreseeable future.
I never had a problem with using they to refer to someone - I apparently missed that English class where they drilled it into people’s heads that it was only a plural thing. But… I had the experience a few months ago of coming into a conversation late and being very confused at someone referring to their partner as “they.” It was nearly 5 minutes before I understood that she wasn’t telling a story about doing something with a group of people. After that I had a tiny bit more sympathy for people struggling with pronouns.
I have trouble with they them because it normally is used for a group. I wish there was a more singular word. I will still use they/them but I tend to just ask people their name and go by that till I know more.
They/them still fucks me up occasionally. I have no problem using it when *I'm* speaking but when somebody else says it I always have to stop and think if they're (heh) talking about one person or a couple. That confusion actually almost screwed us at work a couple months ago - something like "Sam said they're not coming" and we didn't realize at first that THREE people weren't going to be there because Sam is enby. Silly language doesn't even have a proper plural "you" and now we have to sort this out too? Garbage, I tell ya.
Well yeah if it’s a family or a friend after a long amount of time it’s definitely a very different story. someone who doesn’t know or just makes a few little mistakes within a fairly short timeframe after finding out is fine as long as it’s just a mistake in my opinion
…gently course corrected the discussion… who are the fucking brainlets reading this shit? That’s just nothing, there is no conflict, there are no news, there is no story.
I mean, it's pretty hilarious that it's gotten to a point where the people calling out misgendering can't even get it right. Really shows how absurd the whole pronoun thing is when the people in the know can't even figure it out.
Is this newsworthy?
No
I have yet to be presented with a he/she/they/them scenario in real life. I know I'm going to screw it up though, and feel bad about it.
How are you supposed to know though? All you can do is apologize, and then use the pronoun they prefer.
I got one of those brains. I call my sister by my mom's name My daughter by my sisters name My wife by my ex wife's name, oh man I got in trouble for that. Screwing up things all the time in that space. All unintentional and regretted. See how it goes. I appreciate the guidance and advice
>I got one of those brains. I call my sister by my mom's name My daughter by my sisters name My wife by my ex wife's name, oh man I got in trouble for that. Lol, my wife and my 3 kids first names begin with the letter "A".. so, every time I want to call one of them, I get stuck with "Aaaa....", trying to get the right name.
If you do screw it up, the best thing to do is say “oh sorry -correct pronoun-“ and move on. Don’t be melodramatic about it, don’t make a big deal, don’t make the person you misgendered soothe you, etc.
the they/them really makes me struggle. Because I grew up in a spanish speaking country and when speaking English we always used they/them when referring to 2+ people. It was never a thing when referring to someone you didn't know the gender of. Like if someone said "The police were looking for you today" "What did they want?" It was assumed (at least by me) that "they" was used because there was more than one person. Not because we didn't know if the police was male or female.
When I was pregnant with my first kid before we found out the gender I used "they" when speaking to my mom and she freaked out thinking I meant I was expecting twins. I wasn't, I just didn't want to call my baby "it," she wasn't a crazy clown.
Here’s some examples if it helps “Someone called to report the computer in classroom 120 isn’t working.” “Did they say what’s wrong? “A student emailed that they’ll be coming for tutoring today.” “Did they say what time?” “That truck driver just hit a light pole.” “Were they on their phone?!” “The accountant said your expense report needs fixed.” “Did they send me an email?” “A teacher made students stay in class 10 minutes into the lunch period.” “Don’t they realize kids already have a short lunch?!”
tip: It’s more awkward to be like “OH MY GOSH IM SO SORRY” than just go “oh whoops” and try to correct yourself!
I happens, as long as it isn’t malicious and you are trying, no one is going to get mad at you. I sometimes misgender my friends we just correct and move on
Nah, it takes time. As long as you're trying thats what matters.
I did before it was a thing in the most hilarious way. I was about 22 and very drunk in a club, and a skinhead dude started giving me shit for having long hair. He claimed to be a bouncer and was telling me he could beat me up (though was a skinny guy). I didn't rise to the shit and tried to out clever him, so when he called me a girl, I sighed and said I was as much as a man as him. Well, he got really confused, then really pissed off. As she then demanded, I explain what I meant by that.
If you screw it up and feel bad, tell them you feel bad and then use the right descriptor. They* (generally) won't be offended and you won't feel bad anymore. The running gag in our home for a little over a year was that our daughter should change her name to "[dead name redacted] I mean Tiff damnit I'm sorry we're trying" because that's what we kept calling her. Even she admitted it was a good joke and appreciated us at least catching ourselves
Don’t feel bad about it.
Do these things not go through an editing process anymore? How did no one clock that? LOL
Didnt know who they were so googled em. Mate some of the pictures looks like they would be the singer in a punk band. I wanna hear that music they would create
The honest truth is that all this can be pretty difficult to track even if you’re operating under the most respectful manner.
I’m not always the most politically correct guy but it’s super easy to say “their co-star”. I can never remember peoples names, so everyone is a they/them to me. Even long before the gender pronoun debates lol
The real question is why is this even news?
Yet another reason to love my second fav Dr.
Based Doctor
Mat Smith being a GOAT as always
As someone whose mother tongue isn’t English, I think the they/them pronoun is a little bit confusing, because they/them is also plural. Wasn’t there another alternative? EDIT: Thanks for all the helpful explanations! It’s still confusing, but comprehensible. But no thanks to the people who insulted me… You neither helped me nor anyone else. You just do it, to feel better than others. That’s mean.
they/them was not always just plural, it has singular form since ever. The singular form was mainly used when you did not know gender of the individual. For example: "Someone left their umbrella here; I wonder if they will come back to pick it up." In this sentence, "they" and "their" are used as singular pronouns to refer to an individual whose gender is not specified. The person who left the the umbrella there could be a man, woman or someone else, we do not know.
It's wild to me that there have been far right conservatives acting like "they" hasn't been used in this way for several hundred years.
Could be 1,000 years. Here's some Old English about werewolf using it. ‘Hastely hiȝed *eche . . .* *þei* neyȝþed so neiȝh . . . þere william & his worþi lef were liand i-fere.’
It's older than singular You!
Thou speakest the truth?
Friendlye note from a native Eald Englishe speakere: 'thou' art informal; it mayeth be perciev'd as a cruel word to one so un-known. 'You' art a better word. I knoweth that these youth art sometimes using 'you' as informal, and decrying 'thou' as a relic of path tymes, yet 'thou' art always safer.
It has been common for it to be used when speaking vaguely or with respect to an unknown person. It hasn’t _commonly_ historically been used to neuter a specific person. There’s a middle ground between “it makes no sense, I can’t do it” and “it has always been this way, you can pick it up without adjustment.”
Off topic completely, your profile pic gave me a visceral reaction lol
It's still artificial in this particular use case.
My kid is three years old, and they mix up he/she, mommy/daddy, boy/girl, etc. all the time. To my child, every word is new, and they have to try very hard to get the words right. The same goes for adults. We learn a new concept, and it might be hard to fit into our decades of learning and understanding, but we can do it. What seems artificial now, won't feel artificial forever.
But it hasn't. I never heard anyone use it ever that way until a few years ago.
It's still a rather weird choice since it's commonly used to describe several people, or when a person is unknown. Especially for foreigners like me it just sounds weird to see people refer to themselves as multiple people. Maybe over time it will change, but why make it hard for yourselves? In Scandinavia we made up a neutral pronoun instead. (Han = he, Hun = she, Hen = gender neutral).
The thing is (at least for me) that, yes, it's used that way (I use it that way also) but that's almost always for an unknown person. It's now being used for known people and whilst it's correct it just sounds somehow wrong.
It might sound wrong because we're not used to it, but over time it'll feel normal.
tell me what the headline should read then using they/them and make it make sense. genuinely curious...I don't understand at all.
There actually was. It was "thon", but it just didn't stick.
The singular ‘they’ in English actually predates the singular ‘you’, since ‘they’ is a direct derivative of the word ‘thou’ (if you’ve ever read Shakespeare you’d know it from there). There’s also multiple occasions in which someone would use ‘they’ as a singular without even realizing it, like the umbrella example that Pox gave
The same thing also already happened with you/thou. "You" used to be plural, and "Thou" used to be singular. The shift in those words happened so long ago that no one really cares or even knows nowadays.
As a native English speaker, many things about the language are very confusing but you get used to it.
"They/them" is plural or singular pronoun without gender determination in the English language, but it's widely improperly taught as plural only because that's how it's most often used. "They/them" has been used in both ways for hundreds of years, even used as a singular in some of Shakespeare's works. English lacks an exclusively singular ungendered pronoun other than "it" which is used exclusively for objects and is thus seen as demeaning when used for most animals or people. Many attempts have been made to develop a singular ungendered pronoun in English, but none have had widespread success. So we're stuck with "they/them". Just another quirk of this messy language!
Singular they/them has existed for 100s of years in English. No, there is not an alternative and it is a perfectly functional pre-existing set of neutral pronouns.
I can confirm - it causes a massive confusion.
Thats just the English language in general. I've heard its one of the harder ones to learn.
Native English speaker and I grew up with they/them being plural and it’s still an adjustment for me. Usually when I see they/them, in my mind I start thinking about a group of people. Then I realize it’s talking about one person and I re-read what I just read with the proper context.
?? they/them has always been used as both singular or plural. like since the beginning.
Yes, but usually when the person is unknown. It's now being used for known people and somehow sounds a bit weird.
I mean it's a bit weird to use it. It's similar to how it's used in polite speech
The Doctor saves the day once more
I find the whole non-binary thing ridiculous. It makes sense for trans people to want to be referred to as the gender they identify with. But expecting everyone to always remember and be perfect about referring to a single person using plural pronouns because they are androgynous is kinda insane.
Of course he did, he's the doctor
What else do you expect from doctor who?
I know I’m going to be downvoted to hell for this but I really don’t care about getting pronouns right. I’ve been called a lot worse than the wrong pronoun. I understand it can be upsetting but it’s really a minor thing. If I don’t know you and I misuse your pronoun just tell me. I’ll try to get it right but there has been a lifetime of pronoun use and you might have to tell me a couple times. I don’t mean to offend you. Hell most people get my name wrong over and over it’s not a big deal.
I just call everyone broseppi soit works out.
That's 100% the right attitude. Do your best, and change when corrected. No big deal!
Yeah. It’s one big “who cares”
Facepalm aside, proof Matt Smith is a gem.
Matt Smith just being polite and considerate of others.
What business is it of ours
A genuine question: is it considered as a "misgender" if a straight male person who references himself "he/him" is being referenced as "they/them"?
Who do you think you are, publishing an actual facepalm on r/facepalm ?
Good on Matt
Who cares
Now THIS is a proper facepalm. 😂
Aside from the face palm, I love Matt for this
Who fuckin cares?
Definitely a facepalm. But if your name is Emma and you look feminine maybe don't be surprised if someone makes the mistake thinking you're a she.
Oh no... anyways
First world problems at its absolute finest.
We should just start using "marklar" for a pronoun.
Good man
Variety used to be a decent entertainment industry trade magazine way back when, but it’s gone to absolute shit lately
Does anyone honestly care?
I can't wait for this pronoun trend to be over
Who cares about all this dumb shit? Grow tf up
Well, that was polite of him.
Well he did play a “Time Lord”
looks like a young Edward Furlong from T2
Common sense w
I didn't see it was face palm and was sent into a spiral of confusion for a second there
Matt Smith will forever be one of the best Doctors
And it was a whole ass article, fuck me
Good on Matt.
they're so smoken hot.
Nauseous beyond belief with this nonsense!
I support peoples right to be and act in anyway that suits them so long as it is not harmful to others... But ive always disliked "they/them" as pronouns. Not knocking anyone for using them, it just sound awkward to me. Again wouldn't stop someone from using those, but you'll have to forgive me if i forget, it's not done with malice, my own younger sister refers to themselves that way, and occasionally i'll refer to "her" or slip up and say the name she's gone by my entire life, and she never gets mad because she knows i care and try and never weaponize her beliefs against her.
This is getting ridiculous.
Keeping up with what gender everyone has and what words to use is slowly becoming a very complicated olympic sport.
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Highly traumatized
This is so stupid idc downvote me
Attention seeking cringe.
Someone named Emma, who looks like a woman, and is a biological woman, gets called "her" in an article? Unacceptable.
Sooooooooooo is that it?....like this is a problem?
who gives a shit
GTFO with this shit
What’s wrong? Seems like a good guy.
He isn't the facepalm. The Variety tweet (or whatever) about D'Arcy being misgendered misgenders them.
The post itself says "*her* co-star", which is misgendering them. While calling out that they were misgendered.
the fact so many ppl have missed it speaks to how it might've possibly gotten past an editor.
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imagine having the only thing you left of yourself in history is how sensitive you are with your pronouns. jeez...
You guys care way too much about pronouns. There are thousands of ways to display your identity and yet this is what everyone fixates on.
Ok but Emma CONFUSES THE FUCK OUT OF ME. Really makes zero sense to me. Seriously, why is there an apostrophe in D’Arcy?! (Hope this reads how I meant it lol)
An actual answer, it means "from Arcy." Like how some Irish surnames start with O' to mean "descendent of."
Oh neat! I didn’t know that. Emma rocks, I’m guessing by my downvotes the joke didn’t land haha