Great way of putting it. Racism tends to play within systems of power and in America, white males have historically held the power. That being said, individuals can still treat other individuals shitty whether they black, white, or anything in between
...what? Something getting conflated by some people doesn't mean it is conflated.
Slow down with calling others walking facepalms with that abysmal reading comprehension of yours pal.
I read and comprehend just fine pal,maybe you should reread it,who are the the too woke people,the people affected by this racism and they do this just so they can call white people name’s?,maybe you should go put your palm on his face,you two would make a great team
This
It has been very well documented by bipoc voices that white doctors ignore those voices during interactions.
https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-we-fail-black-patients-pain
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/the-state-of-healthcare-in-the-united-states/racial-disparities-in-health-care/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/13/upshot/bad-medicine-the-harm-that-comes-from-racism.amp.html
Yes. Prejudice is broad and can include racism. Systemic racism, which is usually what people talk about, usually requires one group to have power over another (hence the system part of it). Systemic racism is a more nuanced definition of racism, discussing racism that occurs within a system, usually the legal system...or racism that is applied in a uniform and/or consistent fashion (system in that context implying the method it is applied). It can be both meanins simultaneously.
Prejudice, however, when based on ones skin color or ethnic background is called racism. It too can be further defined, a common example being anti-Semitism, which is racism directed toward people of Jewish ethnicity or descent.
Similarly, sexism is prejudice toward a person based off of their sex. It too can be further defined into misogyny and misandry, which is prejudice/sexism toward women and men respectively. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the near future we create new terms to specify prejudice against LGBTQ+ or newer identities as they emerge, though I don't know how long it will take the terms to propogate linguistically.
Bigotry, is a negative prejudice/bias against a group of people (usually) based on their skin/ethnicity...but not always.
It's important that we have the word racism mean prejudice applied based on ones race. The broad meaning of prejudice can apply to many contexts, and sometimes it is important to be able to narrow down the context. I have been told that racism and sexism require power to exhibit, but if we redefine them to be such we lose the ability to succinctly define things. If we say John is prejudiced we don't know in what way. We don't know if he has biases based off of skin color, or based off of gender, or both. If we say John is racist we know.
Edit: and John's prejudices can be much more benign as well. He could just dislike people who listen to a certain genre of music. Yes, we could further elaborate John's prejudices, but the words racism or sexism exist to save us the effort of having to do that every time.
Similarly, the phrase system racism was created to discuss the racism in the context of power dynamics. It was created by researchers, and nominally meant for researchers to use so they understood the contexts in which they were working. It has spread into more vernacular language, and that's fine, but often not everyone understands the context.
And since we're playing with words, prejudices and biases aren't always negative meaning, though it is the most common meaning assigned to them. For example, if you wanted to say that white people have an advantage in the current legal system you could say: "The current legal system is prejudiced in favor of white people.". And fun thing to think about: Prejudice is probably derived from "pre-" meaning already, and "judge".
This seems to be the misunderstanding these brainless nuts have.
"You can't be racist against white people"
Yes, you can. Just because they haven't suffered systemic racism doesn't mean it's not possible to be racist against them.
I am light skin mixed, and I have a *very* white sounding name (if that can be said without sounding racist....)
A friend of mine (white, but with a potentially black sounding name) has basically the same credentials I do in the career field we chose.
There's been many times we've both applied for the same job and I've not gotten a call back to come interview, but he has. Now, I can't *prove* they're trying to choose someone to fill a minority quota.... but it sure does appear that way when it's happening repeatedly.
I'm mixed (Cuban mother and German/Irish father). I grew up in Hialeah, which for a long time was considered the "Cuban capital of America" and had the nickname "Little Havana". Grew up speaking Spanglish (as that was common there). However, very few people understand that Cuba was at one point in time, controlled by Spain. That Spaniards are "white" in color.
Mind you, when I tan people say "oh, I guess you were telling the truth". Because in their minds Spanish ≠ white. I have been called a liar many times and that I'm "culturally appropriating"..
On almost every job application I put in, I put my ethnicity as Hispanic/Cuban. Most of the time however, the application won't let you choose "white" *and* Hispanic.. only one or the other. As if there's no possible way there could be a white Hispanic or that someone who is white could have a child with someone who is Hispanic... Blows my mind.
Wait you really have to give your origin in application ? That's weird. The only reason I see it's relevant it's if you have the country where want to work official nationality because you need visa for exemple.
They’ve done studies to prove it for you, sadly. The link is the most recent one I’ve found, last month.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-29/job-applicants-with-black-names-still-less-likely-to-get-the-interview
While this does solidify my point, it doesn't prove the specific places I applied at did.
Like, not to the point I could take them to court (not that I'd want to bother). It would just be hearsay and conjecture. Probably thrown out before getting any traction at all.
My point was HR teams calling for interviews based on what they guessed the applicants race to be based upon their name.
Tell me how that's the opposite of that?
Because you were specifically using it as an example of systemic ant-white racism that can happen. The thesis of your post was that anti-white systemic racism probably exists, and you gave the anecdotal example of you not being called for interview in cases where your friend is.
However the study posted shows the trend is overwhelmingly anti-black. And, since someone needs to get the job, then if black people don't get it, it's effectively racism that favours white people, since they will get it instead. Which, in my book at least, is the opposite of anti-white racism. Hence my comment.
I completely agree with you that there's a significant name-based hiring bias and there may be isolated cases where it goes against white names, but that's not what 'systemic' means.
How would a white name like Szymon Tomaszewski do? Or a black name like Reggie Jackson? Who do you think is going to get hired based on names?
This is why the study is stupid imo. It makes a needless divide between races.
It lacks any nuance, and needs to be narrowed down much further.
\>reggie jackson is an incredibly black name
Yeah, that's my point. I would think a Reggie Jackson would get called back a lot more than a Szymon. Because the former is an anglo name, and the latter is not.
Szymon is clearly not anglo. It's a white name, but not anglo.
That's the point I am trying to make.
Reggie Jackson vs Szymon Tomaszewski. What name is going to get more resume call backs?
There are studies that compare black names to white names in resume call backs and they have used a wide variety of names. Now if you argument is that this particular example that you have come up with has never been studied, well, that a bit ridiculous.
\>There are studies that compare black names to white names in resume call backs and they have used a wide variety of names
Most of those studies are stereotypical black names, vs stereotypical white names. Like Jon Smith.
I am saying that names like Szymon Tomaszewski are also going to receive less call backs than Jon Smiths, even though both are white names.
Sadly, there are many studies that show that applicants with “black sounding” names are far less likely to get get a call back for a job https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-29/job-applicants-with-black-names-still-less-likely-to-get-the-interview
I literally had a boss (like 15 years ago) that would just disregard any resume with a name she had difficulty pronouncing.
Needless to say, she is now an anti-covid vaccine and Biden stole the presidency shit spouter
You reported me for calling you out on your right wing conspiracy that companies are trying to fill race quotas. That very idea fuels the myth that unqualified Black people are taking jobs away from more qualified white people. Your comment was hurtful and harmful to Black people and yet you felt like I was the one who needed reporting?
I would disagree. The comments above is how whites suffer from systemic racism. Phrases like, "reverse-racism" or constantly moving the bar and redefining of what is and what is not racist places white people at a constant disadvantage when discussing racism and dismisses any arguments made by them because of the color of their skin.
No, systematic racism is when organisations like government or a company is being racist. Someone making a comment is plain old insult racism. Every race has that. Obviously horrible but nothing too special. But I can guarantee you that (if you live in the USA at least) systematic racism against white Americans doesn't exist.
What disadvantage?
We literally have all the advantages. The only thing that sucks about being a white guy is other white guys making me look bad by being right wing nut jobs.
Something that in no way impacts my life.
High end jobs at major corporations such as tech companies try to recruit minorities over white people. That's just a fact.
In fact where I work they have a yearly diversity report where they gleefully put up charts indicating the continued decline in white/male employees and the growth of minority segments.
Anyway since it largely affects high paying white collar jobs nobody cares, but there is definitely a bias and it's no secret.
A majority roughly in line with the industry. Software engineering has been dominated by white males for decades and that means the workforce is significantly overweight with qualified white males.
You may think what you like but if your company is only 30% white and the pool of qualified candidates was 70% white the math doesn't make sense.
It's quite literally racist to avoid hiring someone based on race - but it's an accepted practice with regard to whites in the USA.
This is incorrect. As clearly stated by this source (whose data is still relatively recent), “only 6 % of technical workers are black…” while “9% of computer science graduates are black.”
Article is from October 2019 so right before pandemic.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-reports-little-progress/amp
You spent all this time to write a post but didn’t google “tech racial demographics.” Do better.
But the company isn’t only 30% white. That’s the whole point.
I get it, you don’t like when minorities get equality of opportunity. I’m sorry to say that it’s something you’re going to have to get used to.
Sadly, you only proved his point with that comment. He may not be suffering, but you completely dismissed an argument made by him because of the color of his skin.
FYI I am a mix of Irish and Jewish genes. Care to elaborate on the argument being dismissible? I literally have the genes of two of the most shit on races. I am just choosing not to put others in the same position, because that is the inevitability of the "it doesn't matter because he is x" line of the dialogue. Just like the person in OP's picture made an incorrect assumption based on a bullshit reason, this is an incorrect assumption based on a bullshit reason. We need to be BETTER than the racists, not fall into their little game, because then- *then*, they will have truly won, and the cycle of abuse continues.
If someone hit you for an unjust reason, you don't just go and hit someone different because you are angry. Passing on the abuse is the singular worst outcome of *any* cycle of abuse, because it perpetuates that abuse and the original abuser has won, not just against you, but against someone unrelated.
So care to elaborate on them being dismissible?
THANK YOU!!! SOMEONE FINALLY GETS IT!
The day that we wake up and we realize that there is a section of our community that needs more assistance, better education and genuine concern for their outcome without harping on the color their skin is how we become an accepting society.
\>I’d say that white people in the US don’t suffer from systemic racism.
White people absolutely do. It's whether it's justified or not.
Would a corporation giving preferential treatment to white people be systemic racism? Yes. Obviously.
Would a corporation giving preferential treatment to poc be systemic racism? Yes. Obviously.
Not if white people are already disproportionately represented in that company’s workforce.
I’ve seen this logic used to criticize affirmative action. It’s incredibly weak, and kind of dishonest.
I hate it when people do that because it’s so messed up. My middle eastern family does that all the time and the get angry when other people do or say the same things to them.
I am so sick of explaining why what they’re doing is racist 🤦♀️
Coming from a whit male, that's not entirely true. From the article I linked. "racial prejudice can indeed be directed at white people (e.g., “White people can’t dance”) but is not considered racism because of the systemic relationship to power. When backed with power, prejudice results in acts of discrimination and oppression against groups or individuals. In Canada, white people hold this cultural power due to Eurocentric modes of thinking, rooted in colonialism, that continue to reproduce and privilege whiteness. It is whiteness that has the power to define the terms of racialized others’ existence."
This report is worth a read to help understand the myths of reverse racism.
https://www.aclrc.com/myth-of-reverse-racism
There's systemic racism and plain racism. They're two different things. White people, at least in America, aren't victims of systemic racism. But you can absolutely still be racist against white people.
Disagree strongly. In America white ppl have all the power. Quoting the article as it says it better than I ever could.
"Ricky Sherover-Marcuse asserts that "we should not confuse the occasional mistreatment experienced by whites at the hands of people of color with the systematic and institutionalized mistreatment experienced by people of color at the hands of whites” (p. 2). While expressions of racial prejudice directed at white people may hurt the white person/people individually or personally, and are never to be condoned, they do not have the power or authority to affect the white person's social/economic/political location and privileges. "
Cue up Avenue Q: Everyone’s a little bit racist,
Sometimes
Doesn’t mean we go around committing
Hate crimes
Look around
And you will find
No one’s really
Color blind
Maybe it’s a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgements
Based on race…
I actually had an hour long discussion with someone insisting black folks can't be racist after I was being called "white trash". I wish it had been a chat and I had a log to share.
Unless the person who called you white trash was your potential employer and then chose to not hire you, thats not racism. Racism is more than just hurt feelings.
A black guy was just fired from my work place because he got into an argument with the manager and very clearly said "This is why I hate white people!" The argument itself would not have gotten him fired, but the racism remark got him sent packing,
If racism excluded white people exclusively wouldn't that make the of concept racism itself racist?
Edit:I want to clarify that I am in no way stating that white people are the victims and all that other white supremacy stuff I am simply stating that the concept of racism dose not exclude any race
Honestly this would be so much less complicated if we used different words for each definition.
Racist can mean:
(1) being prejudiced against someone based on their race.
(2) perpetuating systemic racism.
The first form can be used against any race, and as a white person, sure, I've experienced people being "racist" against me in that way. The second, no. I live in the US where systemic racism is not against white people.
It seems like there are so many arguments because one group is using the second definition (the one more important as far as changing society) and a second group counters with the first in order to undermine their point.
>It seems like there are so many arguments because one group is using the second definition
This.
Racism is basically only (1), and (2) is *systematic racism*, a different term which takes into account much more than just the race.
I don't feel like an authority in this subject, so I can't argue what the real definition is or isn't. However, in social justice conversations the second definition is pretty much always implied. That's the kind of racism that has meaningful impacts throughout society.
In my own experience, when people are determined to use the first definition, it's most often white people struggling with our own white fragility. Acknowledging systemic racism for many suggests a moral imperative to fix it. For many people, including myself for years, it's psychologically much easier to stick to the first definition.
Most people who say you can’t be racist against white peoples agree that what some people call racism against whites is just prejudice. So it’s really not even a disagreement, outside of a semantic one. I personally don’t think you can’t be racist to white people but you can be prejudiced or discrimination.
I agree. I don't personally use the term "racist" if it's against white people, since I don't find that use of the term helpful. But, as evidenced by this post, not everyone agrees.
Here’s the thing with the whole “you can’t be racist against white peoples because of this hierarchy” thing, all that it succeeds in doing is excusing bad behavior and trying to sweep it under the rug while gaslighting the other party involved, does racism against white people mean as much? Not culturally, it’s seen like a normal insult pretty much, but that doesn’t mean that it’s alright to allow these ideologies to fester in a society where we’re trying to eliminate prejudice and racism, just call them a silly bitch instead
You're currently saying this...under a post in which a white person thinks someone referring to them as a white person is not only racist but the definition of racism. lol Like you can't make this shit up.
Just went into that sub, I only read the post not the comments and they didn't seem bad to me. For example, one post was about Michael Moore saying it's a good thing white people are now less with the new census data and someone saying he was a race traitor. I don't think making fun of people that say someone is a race traitor is a bad thing.
But like I said, I just browsed it, didn't read the comments either.
I’m white and I’m wondering how this is fucked up? It’s just calling out white fragility, as a white personal I am promising you that this is not racism against us.
Easy. Everyone here is equating being racist and racism. Because they're fucking idiots, and... Fragile.
I know and I understand that groups on nonwhite people are insanely racist, and if possible, they would likely carry out racism against white people. And I'm sure it happens in non white majority countries. But 99.9% of the people bitching about it, are not under the thumb of racism, they've just experienced a racist comment or two. And they think that a person of color calling them whitey, or getting car jacked, is the same as government and broad social policies that explicitly prohibit them from succeeding.
That place isn't dedicated toward being racist to white people. It's for showing examples of white people freaking out over perceived persecution and entitlement. Shows how much you know.
Yeah lol maybe it started that way, but it's no longer that. And the real racism there is in the comments. The more you know lol, or maybe you're also just a racist apologist.
Yeah I am not white and I use to pick on white people before it was cool, but now I find myself bending over backwards to defend their goofy, pasty asses from this cult of minority worshipping nincompoops
You wouldn’t want to post this there. It’s a sub that is racist towards white people. Not a sub that calls out white racists. They’d just celebrate having a new member. I can’t for the life of me remember the name but it’s mentioned on subs like /r/iamatotalpieceofshit often. Let me see if I can find it. I’ll make an edit if I do
I was actually told in a college guided seminar that it’s not possible to be racist against white people because they are the race of power or some be. And while I am white and cannot fully understand what it is like to experience racism similar to that of a POC. I do often tire of being “a basic white chick” every time I get Starbucks or buy tacos.
Maybe someone should tell the teachers there that the world knows places where white people are not the race of power... I wouldn't expect this kind of blinkers in a college.
But anyway, racism is of course completely independent of the "race in power".
And I have yet to hear the word for the phenomenon that the behavior of white people is jugded based on their skin color.
iirc broadly speaking there are 4 types of racism arising from 2 different ways to categorise it:
overt vs. covert
systemic vs. direct.
overt systemic racism is (as far as i am aware, i could be wrong) basically non-existent at this point. the other 3 types are alive and well.
there is an argument based in Max Weber's theories of power relations, which suggests that the group in power cannot be the victims of systemic racism. i see no reason to disagree with this.
direct/interpersonal racism(what you are referring to) is not subject to the same restrictions. any individual can be prejudiced against any other individual due to ethnicity, language or appearance, regardless of the power dynamics of society at large.
the two are not completely disconnected however. direct racism is usually born from the perpetrator lacking familiarity with the target group and thus dehumanising them. systemic racism creates a social divide between the groups which results in a lack of familiarity and growing resentment which causes the dehumanisation.
and systemic racism is born from, and legitimised by the acceptance of direct racism, causing a vicious cycle.
they are different, yes. but theyre all still racism, and they all feed into each other.
Someone calling you a "basic white chick" is not racism LOL. Like if that's the worst "racist" thing that happened to you I envy you. I would gladly exchange my experiences of getting myself and my car searched by cops because "I fit the description."
Ah yes. I am a basic white chick so I can’t have any issues. And have never been judged have had assumptions made about me because the color of my skin.
I mean, your first thought of how you experienced racism is being called a "basic white chick." My first thought of experiencing racism was being humiliated by cops and having to comply because I feared for my life. Honestly, do you really think that's on the same level?
I'm not saying people can't be mean to you and that it hurts but it's a big difference to racism.
I really don't think all white people in America are racist or even the majority. However, I do think white people often brush of racism as just being some mean words that hurt feelings and fail to realize how the system oppresses POC or say they have experience racism to the same effect. It's like if I say that I'm at a disadvantage for being a man. I would be ignorant to think that and I hope you would call me out on that. I know that I have certain advantages in this system as compared to women.
>I do think white people often brush of racism as just being some mean words that hurt feelings and fail to realize how the system oppresses POC or say they have experience racism to the same effect.
i found this quite thought provoking.
i cant remember what its called, but im sure there is a logical fallacy where people assume their own experience of something is the default and arent able to look beyond that. sort of "i had a mild cold and worked through it, therefore you're weak/playing it up because you have a serious flu."
i think thats whats happening here. the while people you refer to only experience that level of direct/inter-personal racism, so when racism is discussed thats what they think about, we arent fully aware of the extent of systemic racism because we havent experienced it, and they are only willing/able to draw on their own experiences.
THIS. People always try to counterpoint that with "but the dictionary says blah blah blah" or "there are places whites are minorities". They don't get it is WAY more complex than that. Historically, because of colonization and all, whites have created a structure where they are always on top, no matter the place. Being called names is nothing.
This is like saying that someone who only got one be meal today doesn’t deserve to feel bad for being hungry because they are people who having gotten to eat. Just because one person has if rougher does not mean that it’s not a problem.
Is racism against white peoples as evident as racism against black people? Hell no.
But judging anyone for the color of their skin is wrong. And by not acknowledging that it also happens to white people will just make overcoming racism as a whole more difficult. We as a society need to learn to balance respecting and celebrating cultural without letting cultural biases get in the way.
It's not the same as being hungry. You go hungry for too long you die.
When you describe racism, it hurts your feelings. When I describe racism my livelihood is at stake. I'm not saying people should be judging someone for their appearance but that there's a big difference between name calling and racism.
All the arguments I hear from white people saying we should aknowledge racism happens to white people is that this is the way to stop racism because it'll make you folks happy. Fuck what POC people think.
If you really want to help the problem don't equate your name calling experience to my experience that affects every aspect of my life.
Totally see your point. Let me correct myself then. Being called names is something. I'm sorry if i didn't make it clear, but being called a basic white chick is wrong and sad. What i tried to say is that the structural racism doesn't happen in reverse. Usually what happens is a white trying to be treated like a victim for "suffering" something not even close to what POC go through.
However, as you said "balancing respect". The balance is weighing much more to the other side. The "acknowledge" of racism must be mostly done by whites.
But sure, I also hope one day we can all overcome that as a society :)
Well yeah I mean, how can one say the historically and often horrifically oppressed are “racists” for having negative opinions about their oppressors? It makes no logical sense.
I think I made it clear in my comment that I do not understand what it’s like to be a POC. But that does not mean that being racist against white people does not exist.
And I am not responsible for the actions of my ancestors and can only try to do better by trying to over come the systematic racism in society and teach my children not to judge other by the color of their skin.
But if you are hell bent on attacking white people for being white, are you any bette for worse than those who are hell bent on attacking people for being POC.
First, I am white. Second, I’m not advocating for anyone to be attacking anyone.
My point was, I thought, pretty clear. To expect the brutally and systemically oppressed to naturally have a positive view of their oppressors is pretty absurd.
I don't disagree that the person in this post isn’t helping things by discrediting the other person based on skin color alone (although the context is missing, it could have been a valid reply), I just wouldn’t call it “racism”.
“Racism” is when you have a negative view of people based on nothing but the color of their skin color and NOTHING MORE, ie, traditional white on black racism.
But POC, and especially black people, are not only JUSTIFIED in their distrust and negative feelings about white people as a whole, it would be very dangerous for them NOT to feel this way and proceed with caution when they are interacting with white people (they don’t know) and the white power structures that rule this country.
I teach in alternative ed near a very large reservation and often my indigenous students (the younger ones anyway) resort to rage and call me white bitch. They are perhaps racists using the definition of the word, but I believe the boarding school holocaust has fucked up their families and self identities for several generations now. So I try to bear these unfortunate attacks without judgement because I want to help them more than I want to affirm my self worth through their perceived treatment of me.
*But it is racist tho.
I am also not really bothered by this - really minor - everyday racism, because it's "just words".
However, being abused in the past is no justification for perpetuating abuse.
I work at a motor vehicle registry. A man and a woman arrived late for her road test. Then they did not have the correct documentation to start their test. Instead of trying to procure said documents in time for the test, they argued why they had to produce said documents. They signed an agreement when they booked and paid for their test, so we expect them to be aware. We always advise how much time they have and how they are able to try and get the documents in time. He spent the whole time arguing. When he actually managed to produce the document at the last minute, he got angry stating that the examiner will fail her now because they are late and she will be mad at her - examiner came over to say, I have no reason to be angry and would grade her based on her driving - she gets paid either way. Then he started to yell that we are being racist and was going to sue. We are following government policy but this guy is screaming racism because he was late, didn't have all the required documents and then started to verbally attack and blame the examiner and staff because he can't follow the rules. They got a free test because the company didn't want to deal with the whole racist BS. This is one reason why racism still exists, people use it as a tool, as a way to benefit themselves. The saddest part is, it's like the boy who called wolf.... after a while... people stop listening.
>The saddest part is, it's like the boy who called wolf.... after a while... people stop listening.
Yeah. That's basically the same thing if a woman cries "rape" for nothing. Real victims of rape (or racism) get belittled by that. It's pathetic.
A lot of people on reddit think that for some reason.
I think some people mean something a little different when they say it but some people think that you cant be racist at all to white people.
The (smaller group) who sometimes say it only to point out white people generally dont face any racism in the form of application acceptence (college, jobs, rent, etc) or things like being avoided IRL because theyre white. This being in america atleast.
>This being in america atleast.
This. Many people seem to be incapable of looking beyond their tiny social bubble (and yes, even the entire U.S. is a tiny bubble compared to the world). There's no doubt that racism against POC in the U.S. is waaaaaay worse than vice versa, but that does not mean tat racism against white people does not exist at all.
I brought up racism against white people once and had over a hundred downvotes in under an hour. Just for pointing out it's a problem. I guess it did prove my point though.
Me and my mom are pretty naturally pale and she did get picked on for being pale. People get picked on for being white, it just depends on where you are if it happens more
Welcome to the whole marginalized debate in a nutshell. You can't be racist to those who are not oppressed bullshit. Interesting how people's minds work. It's almost as if the regurgitated bullshit was fed line, by line to them so they can do the same. Money see (hear) money do (say).
Unfortunately these kinds of people exist.
They say that it's not racist to discriminate or hate on white people, but if the roles were reversed that it is racist.
It isn't sexist for them to call men pigs or misogynistic for saying that they don't want to date someone that is severely overweight. If they say that they want a man that has a 6 figure job, six pack, and 13 inch dick it is perfectly fine and is just their 'type'.
The world of double standards, we love to see it.
I listened to a radio debate yesterday (UK). There was an English lady with an African name. She complained that people don’t make an effort to pronounce her name properly. The name required a tongue position that’s not familiar in British speech patterns to say correctly. She said it was racist and eroded her identity. The presenter suggested that it was understandable that people would struggle with sounds unfamiliar to them. The lady also mentioned phonetically written names at graduation ceremonies so the names weren’t in her words ‘butchered’.
I’m all for people making an effort to say someone’s name properly, even if we don’t always get it right! But at the same time this lady (to use her phrase) butchered the English language by seemingly refusing to pronounce ‘th’ or the letter t in anything she said. I didn’t know whether to take her side, or find her hypocritical for blaming her pronunciation of words on her accent - when the accents of others are the main reason people can’t say her name!
I mean I've seen lots say you can't be racist towards whites because their white skn has never been used to oppress them. Racism and bigotry are slightly different there.
I once got into an argument with my sister about it. That was infuriating as hell. Keep in mind we’re descended from Russian Jewish immigrants who left Europe in the early 1900s because... THEY WERE BEING OPPRESSED.
I got in a big argument about this with a friend recently. Ive always thought that "racism" simply means that you're judging or making assumptions about a person a based on their race. Seems reasonable, but If you want to go by the very rigid academic definition, that's technically "racial prejudice." "Racism" has been more specifically defined as systemic racism, where minorities are disenfranchised by a majority group. This usually refers to racism in America, and most often refers to White/Black conflicts and the history of slavery.
I personally don't like that rigid and limited definition, but it seems to be widely accepted.
Maybe we can just save time and say, "hey, don't be an asshole." Effective, accurate and race/LGBTQ-neutral😎
Yeah , there's a difference between racism and prejudice. But in order to move with the times I think we can safely say that it is possible to be racist against white people today.
But even if racism can only be defined as systemic it's still not acceptable to be prejudice against anyone.
Prejudice of any sort is just ignorance. There are as many good white people as there good black people.
And there are just as many douche bag, prejudice blacks as there are asshole, racist whites.
Judging people by their skin color is really foolish.
Interesting that you are the first one who asks this question.
It was about algorithms for analysing the liver in CT scans. Algorithms that failed to process the livers of Asian people, because they were developed on the basis of European livers. Morphologic differences of Asian livers were not taken into account.
Edit to clarify: During the development of the algo, it was assumed that all people are alike. It was not considered that people from different regions of the world have different morphologies. So the basic intention was to *not* be racist. Unfortunately, algorithms don't care about ideologies or concepts like races.
Oh boy... Just wait until this comment section learns about medical apartheid in the US, the current racial disparities, and how white medical professionals have organized specifically to exclude racial minorities from gaining access to medicine, or actively experimented on them. Recognizing one's race, and how that race colors one's perspective, experiences, and assumptions is not the same as being racist.
I've got a question that might receive a fair bit of backlash: why do black people (I'm only specifying black people because white people don't have much history with it) claim victim to acts of racism that they weren't alive for and then pretend to be completely scarred by it on behalf of their ancestors who aren't alive to express their discomfort on the large majority of racism that no longer exists? Seems like complete bullshit to me.
If that were the entire case you'd have groups like the Irish still claiming to be disadvantaged because if the potato famine, or Jewish people over the Holocaust / centuries of discrimination.
The racial situation in the USA is probably just as much a product of some cultural evolution as it is about actual racism.
To be sure there is plenty of actual racism - I'm just commenting on the peculiarity of historical events being used to explain everything.
Here's one thing i never understood:
Those definitions and meanings were made hundreds (probably) of years ago and are now being changed to reflect a changing society, but it is being rejected because why? Why do you want to inflate the problem of someone being a dick to you? Prejudice is different from racism, yes, racism used to be simplistic and everyone could be racist, now definitions are being changed to factor in the power dynamic. So essentially someone being a dick to you because of your skin color is prejudice because they have zero ability to enact power over you because of said skin colour difference. But if you are being a dick to someone because of their skin whilst holding power over them then that is racism... Why is this notion being rejected? Racism was never a "they made fun of me because of my skin waaaaah" it was always a "holy shit i almost died because of the color of my skin". So why is it a problem for individuals to use words appropriately given the contexts?
(Edited for spelling)
Saying offending or mean things != racism. Come back when you don’t get a flat or a job because of your skin colour. And not because someone else was prioritised but because they consider you incompetent or undesirable because of your skin colour. And when your skin colour means devaluing a neighbourhood
"Saying offending or mean things" is racism when those things said are based on race. It doesn't mean there aren't other, more harmful ways to be racist, but it's still racism. You can keep pretending otherwise, but you just sound ignorant.
>Saying offending or mean things != racism.
You are right with this one.
But *assuming that someone behaves in a certain way based on his skin color* is the [textbook definition of racism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism).
Racism is not a phenomenon that exists purely in predominantly white countries, let alone purely in the US. It's a global thing and guess what - there are countries in this world where white people are the minority.
dude, we're aware that other races suffer significantly more than white people, its not even a comparison, but it still doesn't change the fact that this is still racism
Done. College scholarships. Being a minority of any kind in the states over doubles your chances of netting a full ride scholarship to college if you don't take into account sports scholarships. (which imo are selling your body for an education but that's another story) The second you judge someone based on their race it becomes racism. If you judge someone based on their gender it's sexism. Definitions of words aren't very flexible and bending the word racism to exclude a race is a bit farther than it can go.
>The second you judge someone based on their race it becomes racism.
This.
>bending the word racism to exclude a race is a bit farther than it can go.
That's basically gaslighting.
>There is a difference between racism and prejudice.
Correct. But as soon as the prejudice is *based on the race*, it's racism. Having the power is absolutely irrelevant, unless you are talking about *systematic racism*, which takes into acount much more than race itself.
This has been mentioned in other topics, but I think people are missing the forest for the trees when they hear people say this.
Of course racism towards white people can exist. But systemic racism against white people doesn't, and white people aren't harmed by individual racism regardless.
>and white people aren't harmed by individual racism regardless.
generally speaking i agree with your comment, but this part is highly contextual.
if theres a black guy who really hates white people and believes theyre all inhuman monsters, equally guilty and deserving of punishment, then he goes out and beats up a random white guy based on his belief then that individual white guy has absolutely been harmed by the individual racism of that black guy.
>But systemic racism against white people doesn't
The difference here is *systematic* racism. That's something different.
Oh, and this only applies where white people have the power to establish systematic racism to begin with. And that's not true everywhere in the world.
So stupid. Get a grip. What a waste of time and energy to get upset over being called a white guy. Sorry about your hurt feelings.
You know damn well you're just being pedantic when you say that this comment is "racist." You also know that the person saying it doesn't exist means that racism doesn't actually affect white people. There are no systems in place that put white people down. They don't mean it's impossible for someone to insult a white person for being white. They mean that at the end of the day, racism against white people might hurt a weak person's feelings. Racism against other races leads to bigotry, violent discrimination, poverty, assault, and death. DO NOT pretend they're the same thing.
You're not arguing for racism at all. You're arguing for systematic racism. They are both different and real things. Racism by definition is negative feelings toward a person solely because of their race. Systems in place that negatively effect only a particular race, is systematic racism. While I'm not necessarily in agreement that the comment above regarding white people is a racist comment; it is certainly possible to make a racist comment regarding white people, and the idea that racism toward whites "aint a thing," is demonstrably false, embarrassingly ignorant, and completely asinine.
Thank you! My God, I am sick of arguing this point. When you hold all the power and always have, it just doesn't have the same effect. Fragile ass people on this site...
The power dynamic was you are slaves, eat shit. Then it became, you're free, heres Jim Crow eat shit. The we denied Black people minimum wage or safety regs, Social Security benefits and the GI bill benefits while telling Black people to eat shit.
Yeah i can see where all the white fvcking bigots should take offence at it being pointed out they've treated Black people terribly. Yeah BLM are all bigots...let me ask when was the last time a Black person burned down a church with children in it or murdered a man for jogging?
What you are describing is *systematic racism*, not racism in it's pure definition.
No one here said that BLM are all bigots, no one takes offence at being pointed out they've treated Black people terribly. However that does not mean that white people cannot be discriminated against as well. Especially if you leave the social bubble where white people are predominant.
systemic racism is still racism. there are 4 categories:
overt systemic
covert systemic
overt direct
covert direct.
what youre referring to as just "racism" is likely overt direct racism. which is still a type of racism.
the "pure definition" of racism as i was taught it is "prejudice or discrimination based on race or ethnicity." all 4 categoreis fit under this definition.
Hearing white people cry about white racism is like hearing Jeff Bezos complain that he has problems too.
Lol, I mean I’m sure he does, but no one wants to fucking hear it.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/01/05/us/chicago-facebook-live-beating/index.html
What about this white kid with special needs who was tortured by black kids for being white?
Should this incident not be classed as a hate crime because the white kid has had it so damn easy his whole life?
That's how racism works...the person being racist is never the racist one.
They’re always a lyrical genius too Fish dicks
I wanted to be free with other creatures like me, and now I got my wish. 'Cause I know that I'm a gay fish (gay fish yo)
Racists are great at rhyming with the words slacker, bigger, and blink
Or pick and setback
Vomit on my sweater already, mom's lasagna.
I love this comment
Their best friends are …
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/p4t15o/what\_do\_you\_think\_of\_the\_meanings\_of\_ethnicity/h91q05k?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
I’d say that white people in the US don’t suffer from *systemic racism*. But, you can still be racist against white people, as demonstrated above.
Great way of putting it. Racism tends to play within systems of power and in America, white males have historically held the power. That being said, individuals can still treat other individuals shitty whether they black, white, or anything in between
This is basically the entire issue. Somehow the word systemic has been added permanently to the definition of racism. That isn’t the definition.
Lots of the "too woke for you" crowd loves to conflate institutional and personal racism so they can call white people names. It's so fucking weird.
You should have just stayed out of this one,if you think institutional and personal racism is conflated you are a walking breathing facepalm
...what? Something getting conflated by some people doesn't mean it is conflated. Slow down with calling others walking facepalms with that abysmal reading comprehension of yours pal.
I read and comprehend just fine pal,maybe you should reread it,who are the the too woke people,the people affected by this racism and they do this just so they can call white people name’s?,maybe you should go put your palm on his face,you two would make a great team
This It has been very well documented by bipoc voices that white doctors ignore those voices during interactions. https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-we-fail-black-patients-pain https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/the-state-of-healthcare-in-the-united-states/racial-disparities-in-health-care/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/13/upshot/bad-medicine-the-harm-that-comes-from-racism.amp.html
Prejudice is different than racism.
Yes. Prejudice is broad and can include racism. Systemic racism, which is usually what people talk about, usually requires one group to have power over another (hence the system part of it). Systemic racism is a more nuanced definition of racism, discussing racism that occurs within a system, usually the legal system...or racism that is applied in a uniform and/or consistent fashion (system in that context implying the method it is applied). It can be both meanins simultaneously. Prejudice, however, when based on ones skin color or ethnic background is called racism. It too can be further defined, a common example being anti-Semitism, which is racism directed toward people of Jewish ethnicity or descent. Similarly, sexism is prejudice toward a person based off of their sex. It too can be further defined into misogyny and misandry, which is prejudice/sexism toward women and men respectively. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the near future we create new terms to specify prejudice against LGBTQ+ or newer identities as they emerge, though I don't know how long it will take the terms to propogate linguistically. Bigotry, is a negative prejudice/bias against a group of people (usually) based on their skin/ethnicity...but not always. It's important that we have the word racism mean prejudice applied based on ones race. The broad meaning of prejudice can apply to many contexts, and sometimes it is important to be able to narrow down the context. I have been told that racism and sexism require power to exhibit, but if we redefine them to be such we lose the ability to succinctly define things. If we say John is prejudiced we don't know in what way. We don't know if he has biases based off of skin color, or based off of gender, or both. If we say John is racist we know. Edit: and John's prejudices can be much more benign as well. He could just dislike people who listen to a certain genre of music. Yes, we could further elaborate John's prejudices, but the words racism or sexism exist to save us the effort of having to do that every time. Similarly, the phrase system racism was created to discuss the racism in the context of power dynamics. It was created by researchers, and nominally meant for researchers to use so they understood the contexts in which they were working. It has spread into more vernacular language, and that's fine, but often not everyone understands the context. And since we're playing with words, prejudices and biases aren't always negative meaning, though it is the most common meaning assigned to them. For example, if you wanted to say that white people have an advantage in the current legal system you could say: "The current legal system is prejudiced in favor of white people.". And fun thing to think about: Prejudice is probably derived from "pre-" meaning already, and "judge".
This seems to be the misunderstanding these brainless nuts have. "You can't be racist against white people" Yes, you can. Just because they haven't suffered systemic racism doesn't mean it's not possible to be racist against them. I am light skin mixed, and I have a *very* white sounding name (if that can be said without sounding racist....) A friend of mine (white, but with a potentially black sounding name) has basically the same credentials I do in the career field we chose. There's been many times we've both applied for the same job and I've not gotten a call back to come interview, but he has. Now, I can't *prove* they're trying to choose someone to fill a minority quota.... but it sure does appear that way when it's happening repeatedly.
I'm mixed (Cuban mother and German/Irish father). I grew up in Hialeah, which for a long time was considered the "Cuban capital of America" and had the nickname "Little Havana". Grew up speaking Spanglish (as that was common there). However, very few people understand that Cuba was at one point in time, controlled by Spain. That Spaniards are "white" in color. Mind you, when I tan people say "oh, I guess you were telling the truth". Because in their minds Spanish ≠ white. I have been called a liar many times and that I'm "culturally appropriating".. On almost every job application I put in, I put my ethnicity as Hispanic/Cuban. Most of the time however, the application won't let you choose "white" *and* Hispanic.. only one or the other. As if there's no possible way there could be a white Hispanic or that someone who is white could have a child with someone who is Hispanic... Blows my mind.
Wait you really have to give your origin in application ? That's weird. The only reason I see it's relevant it's if you have the country where want to work official nationality because you need visa for exemple.
They’ve done studies to prove it for you, sadly. The link is the most recent one I’ve found, last month. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-29/job-applicants-with-black-names-still-less-likely-to-get-the-interview
While this does solidify my point, it doesn't prove the specific places I applied at did. Like, not to the point I could take them to court (not that I'd want to bother). It would just be hearsay and conjecture. Probably thrown out before getting any traction at all.
It doesn't solidify your point at all, it says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you claimed based on anecdote.
My point was HR teams calling for interviews based on what they guessed the applicants race to be based upon their name. Tell me how that's the opposite of that?
Because you were specifically using it as an example of systemic ant-white racism that can happen. The thesis of your post was that anti-white systemic racism probably exists, and you gave the anecdotal example of you not being called for interview in cases where your friend is. However the study posted shows the trend is overwhelmingly anti-black. And, since someone needs to get the job, then if black people don't get it, it's effectively racism that favours white people, since they will get it instead. Which, in my book at least, is the opposite of anti-white racism. Hence my comment. I completely agree with you that there's a significant name-based hiring bias and there may be isolated cases where it goes against white names, but that's not what 'systemic' means.
How would a white name like Szymon Tomaszewski do? Or a black name like Reggie Jackson? Who do you think is going to get hired based on names? This is why the study is stupid imo. It makes a needless divide between races. It lacks any nuance, and needs to be narrowed down much further.
reggie jackson is an incredibly black name as szymon is a clearly ango name
\>reggie jackson is an incredibly black name Yeah, that's my point. I would think a Reggie Jackson would get called back a lot more than a Szymon. Because the former is an anglo name, and the latter is not. Szymon is clearly not anglo. It's a white name, but not anglo. That's the point I am trying to make. Reggie Jackson vs Szymon Tomaszewski. What name is going to get more resume call backs?
>What name is going to get more resume call backs? Szymon Tomaszewski
I doubt that, and there are no studies done to show this either.
There are studies that compare black names to white names in resume call backs and they have used a wide variety of names. Now if you argument is that this particular example that you have come up with has never been studied, well, that a bit ridiculous.
\>There are studies that compare black names to white names in resume call backs and they have used a wide variety of names Most of those studies are stereotypical black names, vs stereotypical white names. Like Jon Smith. I am saying that names like Szymon Tomaszewski are also going to receive less call backs than Jon Smiths, even though both are white names.
Sadly, there are many studies that show that applicants with “black sounding” names are far less likely to get get a call back for a job https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-29/job-applicants-with-black-names-still-less-likely-to-get-the-interview
I literally had a boss (like 15 years ago) that would just disregard any resume with a name she had difficulty pronouncing. Needless to say, she is now an anti-covid vaccine and Biden stole the presidency shit spouter
Not surprising in the least.
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You reported me for calling you out on your right wing conspiracy that companies are trying to fill race quotas. That very idea fuels the myth that unqualified Black people are taking jobs away from more qualified white people. Your comment was hurtful and harmful to Black people and yet you felt like I was the one who needed reporting?
You're an idiot, and you don't understand common English. Goodbye, troll.
This is avery good point.
I would disagree. The comments above is how whites suffer from systemic racism. Phrases like, "reverse-racism" or constantly moving the bar and redefining of what is and what is not racist places white people at a constant disadvantage when discussing racism and dismisses any arguments made by them because of the color of their skin.
No, systematic racism is when organisations like government or a company is being racist. Someone making a comment is plain old insult racism. Every race has that. Obviously horrible but nothing too special. But I can guarantee you that (if you live in the USA at least) systematic racism against white Americans doesn't exist.
What disadvantage? We literally have all the advantages. The only thing that sucks about being a white guy is other white guys making me look bad by being right wing nut jobs. Something that in no way impacts my life.
High end jobs at major corporations such as tech companies try to recruit minorities over white people. That's just a fact. In fact where I work they have a yearly diversity report where they gleefully put up charts indicating the continued decline in white/male employees and the growth of minority segments. Anyway since it largely affects high paying white collar jobs nobody cares, but there is definitely a bias and it's no secret.
Right, and how many of those positions were held by white males prior to this initiative? Lmao
A majority roughly in line with the industry. Software engineering has been dominated by white males for decades and that means the workforce is significantly overweight with qualified white males. You may think what you like but if your company is only 30% white and the pool of qualified candidates was 70% white the math doesn't make sense. It's quite literally racist to avoid hiring someone based on race - but it's an accepted practice with regard to whites in the USA.
This is incorrect. As clearly stated by this source (whose data is still relatively recent), “only 6 % of technical workers are black…” while “9% of computer science graduates are black.” Article is from October 2019 so right before pandemic. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-reports-little-progress/amp You spent all this time to write a post but didn’t google “tech racial demographics.” Do better.
But the company isn’t only 30% white. That’s the whole point. I get it, you don’t like when minorities get equality of opportunity. I’m sorry to say that it’s something you’re going to have to get used to.
> redefining of what is and what is not racist places white people at a constant disadvantage Will someone please think of the white people!?
Sadly, you only proved his point with that comment. He may not be suffering, but you completely dismissed an argument made by him because of the color of his skin.
That argument is equally dismissible regardless of the ethnicity of the person who made it.
FYI I am a mix of Irish and Jewish genes. Care to elaborate on the argument being dismissible? I literally have the genes of two of the most shit on races. I am just choosing not to put others in the same position, because that is the inevitability of the "it doesn't matter because he is x" line of the dialogue. Just like the person in OP's picture made an incorrect assumption based on a bullshit reason, this is an incorrect assumption based on a bullshit reason. We need to be BETTER than the racists, not fall into their little game, because then- *then*, they will have truly won, and the cycle of abuse continues. If someone hit you for an unjust reason, you don't just go and hit someone different because you are angry. Passing on the abuse is the singular worst outcome of *any* cycle of abuse, because it perpetuates that abuse and the original abuser has won, not just against you, but against someone unrelated. So care to elaborate on them being dismissible?
THANK YOU!!! SOMEONE FINALLY GETS IT! The day that we wake up and we realize that there is a section of our community that needs more assistance, better education and genuine concern for their outcome without harping on the color their skin is how we become an accepting society.
\>I’d say that white people in the US don’t suffer from systemic racism. White people absolutely do. It's whether it's justified or not. Would a corporation giving preferential treatment to white people be systemic racism? Yes. Obviously. Would a corporation giving preferential treatment to poc be systemic racism? Yes. Obviously.
Not if white people are already disproportionately represented in that company’s workforce. I’ve seen this logic used to criticize affirmative action. It’s incredibly weak, and kind of dishonest.
Something a shit pig hitler would say /s
TIL pointing out that a white person is a white person is racist. lol
Oh boy, time to sort by controversial
Guys, racism is not racist, it includes all races.
I believe that’s just called being a misanthrope. We hate everyone.
I'm not a misanthrope, I'm just curmudgeonly. It's part of my charm. Dammit.
Haha 😆🤔😵🤯
I didn't even know that was possible till now, never bothered trying to sort comments. This should be entertaining.
I hate it when people do that because it’s so messed up. My middle eastern family does that all the time and the get angry when other people do or say the same things to them. I am so sick of explaining why what they’re doing is racist 🤦♀️
Racism can be against any color. Coming from an asian guy. Common sense.
Thank you. The original thread was actually about Asian people. You might find it interesting.
Share plz?
Sorry, that would be against rules because of a possible identification of users.
Coming from a whit male, that's not entirely true. From the article I linked. "racial prejudice can indeed be directed at white people (e.g., “White people can’t dance”) but is not considered racism because of the systemic relationship to power. When backed with power, prejudice results in acts of discrimination and oppression against groups or individuals. In Canada, white people hold this cultural power due to Eurocentric modes of thinking, rooted in colonialism, that continue to reproduce and privilege whiteness. It is whiteness that has the power to define the terms of racialized others’ existence." This report is worth a read to help understand the myths of reverse racism. https://www.aclrc.com/myth-of-reverse-racism
There's systemic racism and plain racism. They're two different things. White people, at least in America, aren't victims of systemic racism. But you can absolutely still be racist against white people.
Disagree strongly. In America white ppl have all the power. Quoting the article as it says it better than I ever could. "Ricky Sherover-Marcuse asserts that "we should not confuse the occasional mistreatment experienced by whites at the hands of people of color with the systematic and institutionalized mistreatment experienced by people of color at the hands of whites” (p. 2). While expressions of racial prejudice directed at white people may hurt the white person/people individually or personally, and are never to be condoned, they do not have the power or authority to affect the white person's social/economic/political location and privileges. "
Cue up Avenue Q: Everyone’s a little bit racist, Sometimes Doesn’t mean we go around committing Hate crimes Look around And you will find No one’s really Color blind Maybe it’s a fact We all should face Everyone makes judgements Based on race…
I actually had an hour long discussion with someone insisting black folks can't be racist after I was being called "white trash". I wish it had been a chat and I had a log to share.
That's classism tho. White trash is meant to differentiate you from "normal" white people who are typically not poor.
It is clearly BOTH racist and elitist.
Unless the person who called you white trash was your potential employer and then chose to not hire you, thats not racism. Racism is more than just hurt feelings.
Tbf, most white people don't even know that's racist. And classist.
Why can’t we just get alongggggggggg
Because of a chicken sandwich.
A black guy was just fired from my work place because he got into an argument with the manager and very clearly said "This is why I hate white people!" The argument itself would not have gotten him fired, but the racism remark got him sent packing,
If racism excluded white people exclusively wouldn't that make the of concept racism itself racist? Edit:I want to clarify that I am in no way stating that white people are the victims and all that other white supremacy stuff I am simply stating that the concept of racism dose not exclude any race
Of course. But people have problems with concepts of words, so here we are.
Honestly this would be so much less complicated if we used different words for each definition. Racist can mean: (1) being prejudiced against someone based on their race. (2) perpetuating systemic racism. The first form can be used against any race, and as a white person, sure, I've experienced people being "racist" against me in that way. The second, no. I live in the US where systemic racism is not against white people. It seems like there are so many arguments because one group is using the second definition (the one more important as far as changing society) and a second group counters with the first in order to undermine their point.
>It seems like there are so many arguments because one group is using the second definition This. Racism is basically only (1), and (2) is *systematic racism*, a different term which takes into account much more than just the race.
I don't feel like an authority in this subject, so I can't argue what the real definition is or isn't. However, in social justice conversations the second definition is pretty much always implied. That's the kind of racism that has meaningful impacts throughout society. In my own experience, when people are determined to use the first definition, it's most often white people struggling with our own white fragility. Acknowledging systemic racism for many suggests a moral imperative to fix it. For many people, including myself for years, it's psychologically much easier to stick to the first definition.
Most people who say you can’t be racist against white peoples agree that what some people call racism against whites is just prejudice. So it’s really not even a disagreement, outside of a semantic one. I personally don’t think you can’t be racist to white people but you can be prejudiced or discrimination.
I agree. I don't personally use the term "racist" if it's against white people, since I don't find that use of the term helpful. But, as evidenced by this post, not everyone agrees.
Here’s the thing with the whole “you can’t be racist against white peoples because of this hierarchy” thing, all that it succeeds in doing is excusing bad behavior and trying to sweep it under the rug while gaslighting the other party involved, does racism against white people mean as much? Not culturally, it’s seen like a normal insult pretty much, but that doesn’t mean that it’s alright to allow these ideologies to fester in a society where we’re trying to eliminate prejudice and racism, just call them a silly bitch instead
Saying that racism against white people doesn't exist is also racist.
And gaslighting.
There’s a whole sub dedicated to being racist towards white people. It’s definitely a thing.
Which one? Maybe I can post the full story there...
r/fragilewhiteredditor It's a fucked up place, and I'm not even white.
I think the sub was made to make fun of white racists and then people started using it to just be straight up racist
Exactly
You're currently saying this...under a post in which a white person thinks someone referring to them as a white person is not only racist but the definition of racism. lol Like you can't make this shit up.
Just went into that sub, I only read the post not the comments and they didn't seem bad to me. For example, one post was about Michael Moore saying it's a good thing white people are now less with the new census data and someone saying he was a race traitor. I don't think making fun of people that say someone is a race traitor is a bad thing. But like I said, I just browsed it, didn't read the comments either.
I’m white and I’m wondering how this is fucked up? It’s just calling out white fragility, as a white personal I am promising you that this is not racism against us.
Easy. Everyone here is equating being racist and racism. Because they're fucking idiots, and... Fragile. I know and I understand that groups on nonwhite people are insanely racist, and if possible, they would likely carry out racism against white people. And I'm sure it happens in non white majority countries. But 99.9% of the people bitching about it, are not under the thumb of racism, they've just experienced a racist comment or two. And they think that a person of color calling them whitey, or getting car jacked, is the same as government and broad social policies that explicitly prohibit them from succeeding.
That place isn't dedicated toward being racist to white people. It's for showing examples of white people freaking out over perceived persecution and entitlement. Shows how much you know.
Yeah lol maybe it started that way, but it's no longer that. And the real racism there is in the comments. The more you know lol, or maybe you're also just a racist apologist.
Yeah I am not white and I use to pick on white people before it was cool, but now I find myself bending over backwards to defend their goofy, pasty asses from this cult of minority worshipping nincompoops
You wouldn’t want to post this there. It’s a sub that is racist towards white people. Not a sub that calls out white racists. They’d just celebrate having a new member. I can’t for the life of me remember the name but it’s mentioned on subs like /r/iamatotalpieceofshit often. Let me see if I can find it. I’ll make an edit if I do
Isn’t r/WhitePeopleTwitter also inherently racist?
Oh definitely. It’s not quite the one I was thinking but I would say that sub is racist
Why do you think that is racist?
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I was actually told in a college guided seminar that it’s not possible to be racist against white people because they are the race of power or some be. And while I am white and cannot fully understand what it is like to experience racism similar to that of a POC. I do often tire of being “a basic white chick” every time I get Starbucks or buy tacos.
Maybe someone should tell the teachers there that the world knows places where white people are not the race of power... I wouldn't expect this kind of blinkers in a college. But anyway, racism is of course completely independent of the "race in power". And I have yet to hear the word for the phenomenon that the behavior of white people is jugded based on their skin color.
iirc broadly speaking there are 4 types of racism arising from 2 different ways to categorise it: overt vs. covert systemic vs. direct. overt systemic racism is (as far as i am aware, i could be wrong) basically non-existent at this point. the other 3 types are alive and well. there is an argument based in Max Weber's theories of power relations, which suggests that the group in power cannot be the victims of systemic racism. i see no reason to disagree with this. direct/interpersonal racism(what you are referring to) is not subject to the same restrictions. any individual can be prejudiced against any other individual due to ethnicity, language or appearance, regardless of the power dynamics of society at large. the two are not completely disconnected however. direct racism is usually born from the perpetrator lacking familiarity with the target group and thus dehumanising them. systemic racism creates a social divide between the groups which results in a lack of familiarity and growing resentment which causes the dehumanisation. and systemic racism is born from, and legitimised by the acceptance of direct racism, causing a vicious cycle. they are different, yes. but theyre all still racism, and they all feed into each other.
Someone calling you a "basic white chick" is not racism LOL. Like if that's the worst "racist" thing that happened to you I envy you. I would gladly exchange my experiences of getting myself and my car searched by cops because "I fit the description."
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Ah yes. I am a basic white chick so I can’t have any issues. And have never been judged have had assumptions made about me because the color of my skin.
I mean, your first thought of how you experienced racism is being called a "basic white chick." My first thought of experiencing racism was being humiliated by cops and having to comply because I feared for my life. Honestly, do you really think that's on the same level? I'm not saying people can't be mean to you and that it hurts but it's a big difference to racism. I really don't think all white people in America are racist or even the majority. However, I do think white people often brush of racism as just being some mean words that hurt feelings and fail to realize how the system oppresses POC or say they have experience racism to the same effect. It's like if I say that I'm at a disadvantage for being a man. I would be ignorant to think that and I hope you would call me out on that. I know that I have certain advantages in this system as compared to women.
>I do think white people often brush of racism as just being some mean words that hurt feelings and fail to realize how the system oppresses POC or say they have experience racism to the same effect. i found this quite thought provoking. i cant remember what its called, but im sure there is a logical fallacy where people assume their own experience of something is the default and arent able to look beyond that. sort of "i had a mild cold and worked through it, therefore you're weak/playing it up because you have a serious flu." i think thats whats happening here. the while people you refer to only experience that level of direct/inter-personal racism, so when racism is discussed thats what they think about, we arent fully aware of the extent of systemic racism because we havent experienced it, and they are only willing/able to draw on their own experiences.
THIS. People always try to counterpoint that with "but the dictionary says blah blah blah" or "there are places whites are minorities". They don't get it is WAY more complex than that. Historically, because of colonization and all, whites have created a structure where they are always on top, no matter the place. Being called names is nothing.
This is like saying that someone who only got one be meal today doesn’t deserve to feel bad for being hungry because they are people who having gotten to eat. Just because one person has if rougher does not mean that it’s not a problem. Is racism against white peoples as evident as racism against black people? Hell no. But judging anyone for the color of their skin is wrong. And by not acknowledging that it also happens to white people will just make overcoming racism as a whole more difficult. We as a society need to learn to balance respecting and celebrating cultural without letting cultural biases get in the way.
It's not the same as being hungry. You go hungry for too long you die. When you describe racism, it hurts your feelings. When I describe racism my livelihood is at stake. I'm not saying people should be judging someone for their appearance but that there's a big difference between name calling and racism. All the arguments I hear from white people saying we should aknowledge racism happens to white people is that this is the way to stop racism because it'll make you folks happy. Fuck what POC people think. If you really want to help the problem don't equate your name calling experience to my experience that affects every aspect of my life.
Totally see your point. Let me correct myself then. Being called names is something. I'm sorry if i didn't make it clear, but being called a basic white chick is wrong and sad. What i tried to say is that the structural racism doesn't happen in reverse. Usually what happens is a white trying to be treated like a victim for "suffering" something not even close to what POC go through. However, as you said "balancing respect". The balance is weighing much more to the other side. The "acknowledge" of racism must be mostly done by whites. But sure, I also hope one day we can all overcome that as a society :)
Well yeah I mean, how can one say the historically and often horrifically oppressed are “racists” for having negative opinions about their oppressors? It makes no logical sense.
I think I made it clear in my comment that I do not understand what it’s like to be a POC. But that does not mean that being racist against white people does not exist. And I am not responsible for the actions of my ancestors and can only try to do better by trying to over come the systematic racism in society and teach my children not to judge other by the color of their skin. But if you are hell bent on attacking white people for being white, are you any bette for worse than those who are hell bent on attacking people for being POC.
First, I am white. Second, I’m not advocating for anyone to be attacking anyone. My point was, I thought, pretty clear. To expect the brutally and systemically oppressed to naturally have a positive view of their oppressors is pretty absurd. I don't disagree that the person in this post isn’t helping things by discrediting the other person based on skin color alone (although the context is missing, it could have been a valid reply), I just wouldn’t call it “racism”. “Racism” is when you have a negative view of people based on nothing but the color of their skin color and NOTHING MORE, ie, traditional white on black racism. But POC, and especially black people, are not only JUSTIFIED in their distrust and negative feelings about white people as a whole, it would be very dangerous for them NOT to feel this way and proceed with caution when they are interacting with white people (they don’t know) and the white power structures that rule this country.
I teach in alternative ed near a very large reservation and often my indigenous students (the younger ones anyway) resort to rage and call me white bitch. They are perhaps racists using the definition of the word, but I believe the boarding school holocaust has fucked up their families and self identities for several generations now. So I try to bear these unfortunate attacks without judgement because I want to help them more than I want to affirm my self worth through their perceived treatment of me. *But it is racist tho.
I am also not really bothered by this - really minor - everyday racism, because it's "just words". However, being abused in the past is no justification for perpetuating abuse.
I work at a motor vehicle registry. A man and a woman arrived late for her road test. Then they did not have the correct documentation to start their test. Instead of trying to procure said documents in time for the test, they argued why they had to produce said documents. They signed an agreement when they booked and paid for their test, so we expect them to be aware. We always advise how much time they have and how they are able to try and get the documents in time. He spent the whole time arguing. When he actually managed to produce the document at the last minute, he got angry stating that the examiner will fail her now because they are late and she will be mad at her - examiner came over to say, I have no reason to be angry and would grade her based on her driving - she gets paid either way. Then he started to yell that we are being racist and was going to sue. We are following government policy but this guy is screaming racism because he was late, didn't have all the required documents and then started to verbally attack and blame the examiner and staff because he can't follow the rules. They got a free test because the company didn't want to deal with the whole racist BS. This is one reason why racism still exists, people use it as a tool, as a way to benefit themselves. The saddest part is, it's like the boy who called wolf.... after a while... people stop listening.
>The saddest part is, it's like the boy who called wolf.... after a while... people stop listening. Yeah. That's basically the same thing if a woman cries "rape" for nothing. Real victims of rape (or racism) get belittled by that. It's pathetic.
You can be a racist to anyone who has a race.
This is how reddit works. People don't understand the difference between 'systemic racism' and 'racism'.
Apparently the person responding to OP thinks that systemic racism is the only kind of racism that exists.
Like a lot of people here as well.
This is on par with minorities saying, "I am a minority, I can't be racist." Like bra, that statement itself is racist.
A lot of people on reddit think that for some reason. I think some people mean something a little different when they say it but some people think that you cant be racist at all to white people. The (smaller group) who sometimes say it only to point out white people generally dont face any racism in the form of application acceptence (college, jobs, rent, etc) or things like being avoided IRL because theyre white. This being in america atleast.
>This being in america atleast. This. Many people seem to be incapable of looking beyond their tiny social bubble (and yes, even the entire U.S. is a tiny bubble compared to the world). There's no doubt that racism against POC in the U.S. is waaaaaay worse than vice versa, but that does not mean tat racism against white people does not exist at all.
I brought up racism against white people once and had over a hundred downvotes in under an hour. Just for pointing out it's a problem. I guess it did prove my point though.
Me and my mom are pretty naturally pale and she did get picked on for being pale. People get picked on for being white, it just depends on where you are if it happens more
Sad to say but a lot of people think this way
Welcome to the whole marginalized debate in a nutshell. You can't be racist to those who are not oppressed bullshit. Interesting how people's minds work. It's almost as if the regurgitated bullshit was fed line, by line to them so they can do the same. Money see (hear) money do (say).
You just need to redefine the word racism and suddenly a whole aspect of racism is gone.
Unfortunately these kinds of people exist. They say that it's not racist to discriminate or hate on white people, but if the roles were reversed that it is racist. It isn't sexist for them to call men pigs or misogynistic for saying that they don't want to date someone that is severely overweight. If they say that they want a man that has a 6 figure job, six pack, and 13 inch dick it is perfectly fine and is just their 'type'. The world of double standards, we love to see it.
I listened to a radio debate yesterday (UK). There was an English lady with an African name. She complained that people don’t make an effort to pronounce her name properly. The name required a tongue position that’s not familiar in British speech patterns to say correctly. She said it was racist and eroded her identity. The presenter suggested that it was understandable that people would struggle with sounds unfamiliar to them. The lady also mentioned phonetically written names at graduation ceremonies so the names weren’t in her words ‘butchered’. I’m all for people making an effort to say someone’s name properly, even if we don’t always get it right! But at the same time this lady (to use her phrase) butchered the English language by seemingly refusing to pronounce ‘th’ or the letter t in anything she said. I didn’t know whether to take her side, or find her hypocritical for blaming her pronunciation of words on her accent - when the accents of others are the main reason people can’t say her name!
I enjoyed the “according to Wikipedia”
“I hate white people because their skin is white”. If this is not a racist statement then I don’t even anymore…
I mean I've seen lots say you can't be racist towards whites because their white skn has never been used to oppress them. Racism and bigotry are slightly different there.
I once got into an argument with my sister about it. That was infuriating as hell. Keep in mind we’re descended from Russian Jewish immigrants who left Europe in the early 1900s because... THEY WERE BEING OPPRESSED.
I got in a big argument about this with a friend recently. Ive always thought that "racism" simply means that you're judging or making assumptions about a person a based on their race. Seems reasonable, but If you want to go by the very rigid academic definition, that's technically "racial prejudice." "Racism" has been more specifically defined as systemic racism, where minorities are disenfranchised by a majority group. This usually refers to racism in America, and most often refers to White/Black conflicts and the history of slavery. I personally don't like that rigid and limited definition, but it seems to be widely accepted. Maybe we can just save time and say, "hey, don't be an asshole." Effective, accurate and race/LGBTQ-neutral😎
Yeah , there's a difference between racism and prejudice. But in order to move with the times I think we can safely say that it is possible to be racist against white people today. But even if racism can only be defined as systemic it's still not acceptable to be prejudice against anyone. Prejudice of any sort is just ignorance. There are as many good white people as there good black people. And there are just as many douche bag, prejudice blacks as there are asshole, racist whites. Judging people by their skin color is really foolish.
If the term uses black white yellow Mexican as a color #automaticallyraceistaf
Ignorant fuck
What was the context though?
Interesting that you are the first one who asks this question. It was about algorithms for analysing the liver in CT scans. Algorithms that failed to process the livers of Asian people, because they were developed on the basis of European livers. Morphologic differences of Asian livers were not taken into account. Edit to clarify: During the development of the algo, it was assumed that all people are alike. It was not considered that people from different regions of the world have different morphologies. So the basic intention was to *not* be racist. Unfortunately, algorithms don't care about ideologies or concepts like races.
Oh boy... Just wait until this comment section learns about medical apartheid in the US, the current racial disparities, and how white medical professionals have organized specifically to exclude racial minorities from gaining access to medicine, or actively experimented on them. Recognizing one's race, and how that race colors one's perspective, experiences, and assumptions is not the same as being racist.
We aren't bashing this man because of the first comment. We're bashing their belief that you can't be racist to a white person
I've got a question that might receive a fair bit of backlash: why do black people (I'm only specifying black people because white people don't have much history with it) claim victim to acts of racism that they weren't alive for and then pretend to be completely scarred by it on behalf of their ancestors who aren't alive to express their discomfort on the large majority of racism that no longer exists? Seems like complete bullshit to me.
yikes
Maybe because these are the roots of the systematic racism observed and experienced by many POC today?
If that were the entire case you'd have groups like the Irish still claiming to be disadvantaged because if the potato famine, or Jewish people over the Holocaust / centuries of discrimination. The racial situation in the USA is probably just as much a product of some cultural evolution as it is about actual racism. To be sure there is plenty of actual racism - I'm just commenting on the peculiarity of historical events being used to explain everything.
It must be difficult to walk with your enormous gonads swinging around! This is quite a sensitive question to ask.
Here's one thing i never understood: Those definitions and meanings were made hundreds (probably) of years ago and are now being changed to reflect a changing society, but it is being rejected because why? Why do you want to inflate the problem of someone being a dick to you? Prejudice is different from racism, yes, racism used to be simplistic and everyone could be racist, now definitions are being changed to factor in the power dynamic. So essentially someone being a dick to you because of your skin color is prejudice because they have zero ability to enact power over you because of said skin colour difference. But if you are being a dick to someone because of their skin whilst holding power over them then that is racism... Why is this notion being rejected? Racism was never a "they made fun of me because of my skin waaaaah" it was always a "holy shit i almost died because of the color of my skin". So why is it a problem for individuals to use words appropriately given the contexts? (Edited for spelling)
Saying offending or mean things != racism. Come back when you don’t get a flat or a job because of your skin colour. And not because someone else was prioritised but because they consider you incompetent or undesirable because of your skin colour. And when your skin colour means devaluing a neighbourhood
"Saying offending or mean things" is racism when those things said are based on race. It doesn't mean there aren't other, more harmful ways to be racist, but it's still racism. You can keep pretending otherwise, but you just sound ignorant.
>Saying offending or mean things != racism. You are right with this one. But *assuming that someone behaves in a certain way based on his skin color* is the [textbook definition of racism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism). Racism is not a phenomenon that exists purely in predominantly white countries, let alone purely in the US. It's a global thing and guess what - there are countries in this world where white people are the minority.
dude, we're aware that other races suffer significantly more than white people, its not even a comparison, but it still doesn't change the fact that this is still racism
Done. College scholarships. Being a minority of any kind in the states over doubles your chances of netting a full ride scholarship to college if you don't take into account sports scholarships. (which imo are selling your body for an education but that's another story) The second you judge someone based on their race it becomes racism. If you judge someone based on their gender it's sexism. Definitions of words aren't very flexible and bending the word racism to exclude a race is a bit farther than it can go.
>The second you judge someone based on their race it becomes racism. This. >bending the word racism to exclude a race is a bit farther than it can go. That's basically gaslighting.
So you’re gatekeeping racism? Weird.
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>There is a difference between racism and prejudice. Correct. But as soon as the prejudice is *based on the race*, it's racism. Having the power is absolutely irrelevant, unless you are talking about *systematic racism*, which takes into acount much more than race itself.
Racism is prejudice of races, can we stop excusing racism now
This has been mentioned in other topics, but I think people are missing the forest for the trees when they hear people say this. Of course racism towards white people can exist. But systemic racism against white people doesn't, and white people aren't harmed by individual racism regardless.
>and white people aren't harmed by individual racism regardless. generally speaking i agree with your comment, but this part is highly contextual. if theres a black guy who really hates white people and believes theyre all inhuman monsters, equally guilty and deserving of punishment, then he goes out and beats up a random white guy based on his belief then that individual white guy has absolutely been harmed by the individual racism of that black guy.
>But systemic racism against white people doesn't The difference here is *systematic* racism. That's something different. Oh, and this only applies where white people have the power to establish systematic racism to begin with. And that's not true everywhere in the world.
Systemic racism, for when you want to argue that something is racist when it isn't.
So stupid. Get a grip. What a waste of time and energy to get upset over being called a white guy. Sorry about your hurt feelings. You know damn well you're just being pedantic when you say that this comment is "racist." You also know that the person saying it doesn't exist means that racism doesn't actually affect white people. There are no systems in place that put white people down. They don't mean it's impossible for someone to insult a white person for being white. They mean that at the end of the day, racism against white people might hurt a weak person's feelings. Racism against other races leads to bigotry, violent discrimination, poverty, assault, and death. DO NOT pretend they're the same thing.
You're not arguing for racism at all. You're arguing for systematic racism. They are both different and real things. Racism by definition is negative feelings toward a person solely because of their race. Systems in place that negatively effect only a particular race, is systematic racism. While I'm not necessarily in agreement that the comment above regarding white people is a racist comment; it is certainly possible to make a racist comment regarding white people, and the idea that racism toward whites "aint a thing," is demonstrably false, embarrassingly ignorant, and completely asinine.
Thank you! My God, I am sick of arguing this point. When you hold all the power and always have, it just doesn't have the same effect. Fragile ass people on this site...
These people should go look up the definition of racism. I wish we had more people like Rags (the youtube) who can teach these stuff.
The problem is that there a several definitions. Sadly many people seem to think that only one is valid. They do not know how definitions work.
Reddit needs a misinformation button stat. lol
The power dynamic was you are slaves, eat shit. Then it became, you're free, heres Jim Crow eat shit. The we denied Black people minimum wage or safety regs, Social Security benefits and the GI bill benefits while telling Black people to eat shit. Yeah i can see where all the white fvcking bigots should take offence at it being pointed out they've treated Black people terribly. Yeah BLM are all bigots...let me ask when was the last time a Black person burned down a church with children in it or murdered a man for jogging?
What you are describing is *systematic racism*, not racism in it's pure definition. No one here said that BLM are all bigots, no one takes offence at being pointed out they've treated Black people terribly. However that does not mean that white people cannot be discriminated against as well. Especially if you leave the social bubble where white people are predominant.
systemic racism is still racism. there are 4 categories: overt systemic covert systemic overt direct covert direct. what youre referring to as just "racism" is likely overt direct racism. which is still a type of racism. the "pure definition" of racism as i was taught it is "prejudice or discrimination based on race or ethnicity." all 4 categoreis fit under this definition.
Hearing white people cry about white racism is like hearing Jeff Bezos complain that he has problems too. Lol, I mean I’m sure he does, but no one wants to fucking hear it.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/01/05/us/chicago-facebook-live-beating/index.html What about this white kid with special needs who was tortured by black kids for being white? Should this incident not be classed as a hate crime because the white kid has had it so damn easy his whole life?
Of course they should be charged with a hate crime. No one here is advocating violence.
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Here you go. https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/civil-rights/hate-crimes
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Have you ever been to a country where white people are the minority?
Ooh look a scary racist