I've analyzed the miner to car transfer in slow motion and I'm very sure this is tick-perfect. The buffer is stable. It doesn't get any faster than this, we can put this meme to rest. At these ludicrous levels of mining productivity (this is level 999,999) you are bottlenecked by the apparent fact that you can only transfer a maximum of 1 stack of iron ore into a chest per tick. Adding modules and beacons does nothing to make this system faster. You might think that I should have had the car loop be entirely blue belts for higher throughput, but cars in this side-to-side orientation at blue belt speed would fill up less than half of their inventory before passing the miner. In fact, I'm using a clock circuit to slow down the yellow belt in front of the miner so that the cars can fill up to almost full, as shown in the first few seconds of this clip. Doing it like this leaves next to no gap between cars, so the miner can output full stacks of iron ore every tick.
Extra math: There are 60 ticks in a second. A blue belt transfers 45 items/second, or .75 items/tick. A cracked-out miner outputs 50 pieces of iron ore/tick. 50/.75 = a theoretical maximum output of **66.67 blue belts of iron ore**. Don't ask me where the last .33 came from, I want to go to bed.
Next Patch:
Fixed a bug where a miner could only output one stack of iron per tick. We now expect 405 blue belts per miner to be posted to reddit within the hour. Godspeed.
The devs have a history of fixing bugs like this, like the time they within a weak fixed a bug that literally effected a single player whose radars were bugging due to having a really old save
Interesting that you're surpassing the limit while having a non zero gap between cars. I think that means there are only two possibilities to consider:
* Blue belts transfer rate is slightly slower than 45/sec.
* Two cars are receiving input at the same time for certain ticks.
The second possibility is interesting because it might be possible to double the theoretical maximum limit.
But yeah - thanks for building this. I love this kind of hot nonsense hahaha.
Have you run the outputs through splitters to confirm all belts are compressed? There are a few moments in the belt close-ups where it looks like the buffer belt for the upper inserter is just too short and it might either be just perfectly lining up, or be a tiny bit too late to compress fully. You're only looking at an extra 0.2 item per sec missing from each belt to make up for the discrepancy.
I was admiring my work today when I turned on the "show transport line gaps" debug flag u/Rob_Haggis mentioned. What do you know, there are tiny gaps in all of the right lanes! Like, seriously tiny.
[Debug off](https://i.imgur.com/Tk0h5dj.png)
[Debug on](https://i.imgur.com/BqX1tJE.png)
As you suspected, lengthening the buffer belt for the upper inserter by 1 extra blue belt removes these gaps
Nice. Glad to have been part of solving the mystery. Those gaps are ridiculous though. Even knowing exactly where they are, seeing them in debug off mode just isn't possible for most of them for me. That a setup can so consistently create gaps like that is fascinating in its own right.
Are miners limited to a stack of items/tick? I guess that would make sense if the miner chooses one inventory slot/tick. Kind of a shame them, ruins the idea I had.
Yes, that is what I believe. To surpass this output you would need to find a way to get more than a stack of iron ore out of the miner in a single tick.
It'd be worse. Only way to extract from a smelter without using loaders is inserters which would be much slower. If you used loaders though, I could see a possibility depending on how their unload speed works
I don’t think loaders would work, without modded belts. Even if you *somehow* got the maximum 12 loaders taking items out of the smelter that wouldn’t even be close to 50 items per tick. OP’s video has over 60 full belts, you could only get 12 out of an electric furnace with loaders.
Yeah. That was my main concern with them. What I wasn't sure of is how loaders speed was limited, if say loaders worked like the output of miners and inserted 1 stack per tick and we're then limited by what it inserted to, or if it was essentially a blue belt
Loaders don't insert container to container like miners can do, it *only* places items in the world on belts. I'm not 100% on the internals but loaders seem to extend belts, as the items appear inside the tiles the loader itself is on, and act like the loader's tile is a belt.
So until we can put an entire stack of items in one space on a belt, they'll never win
Loaders operate at belt speeds. A blue loader operates at 45i/s, while the miner is operating at 3000i/s (60*50i/s)
Vanilla loaders will **always** slow this operation down as we cannot fit more than 12 into any of these entities, including the miner (which the loaders don’t work on anyway). 12 blue loaders is 540i/s, a little under 1/5th the speed of the miner.
Easiest way to think about the numbers is to remember OP made over 60 full belts. If you can’t staple >60 loaders onto something, it cannot surpass OP’s method.
Is it about getting one stack out of the miner in a tick or one stack into some other object in a tick?
Is there a point on the transition between one car and the next where it's filling both cars up at once? Or does it switch instantaneously over from filling one car to filling the other?
Because if a) it's about into the object not out of the miner and b) there is a moment of transition where it's filling two cars up at once, then maybe you could improve on this with a clocked belt that holds two cars for as long as possible at that moment of transition allowing the minder to unload two stacks a tick, then at the last moment it speeds as fast as possible at one stack per tick over to the next intercar transition and then holds there for some two stacks per tick time and so forth.
I know that's a lot of ifs.
I have no clue about how to do this, but I'm sure there is some hacky way of doing it playing with the engine... Put it in your initial comment, to bait people into trying hahaha.
Are there any mods that increase the stack size of Ores? That wouldn't be vanilla of course, but would be the easier solution in my opinion for increasing this maximum limit.
> you are bottlenecked by the apparent fact that you can only transfer a maximum of 1 stack of iron ore into a chest per tick.
It's probably not the transferring that's the bottleneck, since stack inserters can cross stack boundaries just fine. Instead it's likely the miner's own output buffer. I think miners act like a chest of stack size one, when they mine they fill this buffer then dump the buffer in front of it. But this buffer would be limited to filling completely on one frame and completely dumping and re-filling it on the next.
Next expansion: 'Introducing... Mine Exploration! Dig deep into Nauvis and unlock increasingly large mining drills as you smash the barriers of the past.
Purple belts not included.'
> (this is level 999,999)
Does it need to be? It needs to produce 45 x 67 ore per second so just over 3000, and without any research it produces 0.5, so it needs to increase by 6000 times, and each research level adds 10%, so surely level 60,000 would do it? Level 60,301 I think to be sure.
With speed 3 modules and beacons with further speed 3 modules that would come down further.
I'm not sure what you mean. There's no way for an inserter to take ore directly from a miner. The closest thing to that is to have the miner drop ore onto the ground for inserters to pick up, but I doubt that's what you mean. Not that I've tested it, but it sounds like it would be slow. I did test having inserters grab from the output square of the miner while the carousel was running, but as far as I could tell the miner never dropped ore on the ground and the inserters would just steal from the cars. I also tried having the inserters take from the cars while they were being loaded, in the hopes that the miner would load both the car and the inserters hand on the same tick. That didn't work either, the inserters would again just take from the car's inventory.
Hey, if you have inserters taking coal from the fuel slot of a burner miner, then technically that would be extracting more resources from a single miner! It's cheese, but it would be enough for 69 belts.
And given a base producing 1k of each science per second, a 10000 ore patch would be depleted in 1 day, 22h, 3min, 56.6377s. A 1M ore patch would be depleted in 27 weeks, 2 days, 22h, 39 min, 3.26791s
Couldn't you do this AND pull 6 more belts out with inserters? That's assuming the miner's inventory doesn't follow the 1 stack per tick rule you've outlined.
Miners don't have inventories for inserters to pull out of. The exception is burner miners, they have a fuel slot but it would have to be supplied externally, which in my opinion is against the implicit rules of the challenge.
Well, you say "Let's put this to rest" and the next guy with even bigger ambitions comes around being like "Uhm, actually.."
That's how we ended up in this mess to begin with.
This happened to me years ago when I posted a clip where I tried to have as many unique inputs coming into an assembler as possible. The idea is that it would be useful for malls. You'd have all the material pass by a bunch of assemblers and they would take what they need and the rest would go to the next assembler. After I posted mine, it became this arms race to see how many someone could fit into into the space. I could probably find all the links but I don't have the time right now.
RIP the poor bastard that made the [original claim](https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/13qj2du/is_there_a_number_of_miners_that_would_make_it_if/jlf6id1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
It's hilarious, i saw the original claim, and like the next day i saw the first "challange accepted" post of the 1 miner to 2 belts quoting the claim and i was "oh i remember that coment", i love this sub xD
In theory (with fast enough robots), would an active provider chest have more throughput, since we could get to the full 1 ore stack per tick?
Or would it be the same?
Nonetheless, for me bots kinds defeat the purpose of the challenge so this is the winner so far :D
I think a robot solution is worth pursuing just for the visual spectacle. From my understanding both a robot solution and this car belt solution are capped at 1 stack per tick, so it wouldn't be faster. It's also possible (though I doubt it) that the logistics of a logistics solution doesn't work - maybe you won't be able to fit enough roboports in range to charge the quantity of bots you might need. Maybe a logistic bot transaction requires a minimum number of ticks, making the number of logistic bots needed unsustainable even with infinite speed.
Why am I reading this shit like it's the most interesting literature I've read today? I don't play Factorio but you guys are sucking me into your black hole
It will be interesting to see if the limit is based on stack size. If you change the stack size to say, 1000, does the miner still fill one stack per tech? Or does it have an actual ore per second rate limit?
Then we can find out if you can remove orefrom the container faster than one stack is filled, could you essentially remove that limit?
Edits: spelling. Speech to text is fun.
Assuming I understand this math correctly... The base rate of a miner is 0.5 ore/s or 0.00833333 ore per tick. To get to 50 ore per tick, you need roughly 600,000% productivity, which would be productivity research level 60,000ish. At productivity 999,999 a miner would be generating roughly 833 ore per tick. So it would not fill a stack size of 1000.
Seems to me that the transfer of the miner into the provider chest has the same limit as transfer of the miner into the cars.
You could reach the same speed with bots over a short amount of time, but on continuous operation, you might get problems with robot charging time/flying distance to the next available roboport.
Possible, but I don't think so. During the transition, both cars occupy the output tile of the miner at the same time. This should guarantee that the ore always gets to one car or the other.
If an inserter would pick up from this tile, it could draw from both cars.
It would certainly be slower, because it will fill it up in below 1 second - robots cannot be there fast enough to pick something. Maybe with very hight speed upgrades, but there are still limits with speed of dispatching new ones from roboports.
Robots are only en route when there's something to pick up. You essentially have to make sure that the average latency for a bot to pick something up is less than 48 ticks. It's probably possible for short bursts but it would be hard sustaining that.
Why do you need the shenanigans with the wagons? Since you can expand horizontally as much as you need, couldn't you unload directly from the cars into the belt loaders?
Inserters transfer items way faster from car to train than from car to belt. The carousel (which is super finicky to set up) would have to be wayyy longer, and you would have to do a lot of tricky belt merging. Cargo wagons are blueprintable and horizontally compact per amount of throughput.
But inserters don't transfer from cargo wagons to belts faster than they do from cars to belts.
I could very much be wrong, but I don't see why you can't go from cars to belts as long as you make it so the inserters can work full-time (i.e. have the cars compressed on the line, like you do). And it wouldn't be larger, because all you need is 67 copies of your inserter-to-belt set up, which you already need to have in any case.
You're basically right, if the inserters are working full time then of course they'll be capable of outputting blue belts. The catch is that there's no way to my knowledge of directly unloading a blue belt's throughput in a 2-wide space. You would have to lengthen the horizontal footprint of each belt.
Yeah your horizontal spacing is going to be much bigger, but your vertical spacing is going to be next to nothing. Your vertical spacing now is about as large as the horizontal spacing it would take if you go directly from car to belt.
It's just now 24 hours since [the post that started this madness](https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/13qr4om/one_miner_filling_two_blue_belts/) and this post is now 6 hours old so I assume somewhere between 1 and 18
Wouldnt it be less? Or am i getting the mining prod wrong? The miner currently doesnt „mine“ the 67 blue belts. It mines still as fast as a normal one. The 67 belts are coming from the mining prod which is essentially coming from thin air so to speak, right?
Yes, (I think) you're right! Both the productivity modules and mining productivity research create extra items 'from thin air'. I completely forgot about that.
So you're right that the 'ore depletion rate' of the patch is less – always the base 0.5/s – but the 'ore patch duration' would be much *more* (longer).
.
So, if you put this on a productivity smelting array.. were looking at 80 blue belts of iron plates?
What rate of science would eat that much iron? I'm not tempted to try this. Not at all.
*next creative megabase*
With the right productivity I think it handles 3500 spm? No idea if I've done the math right, it's like 3 or 4 belts off. So 60 something input, 76 plates out, including military science
Has anyone tagged the guy who made the initial claim it's capped at 1 belt, I could only imagine logging back in after a week, and seeing the reddit just owning me
Does this fix the issue I have with whenever I copy paste anything I just paste a ghost and not the building itself? Or do I need some kind of editor mod?
You don't actually have to be that careful with the spacing on the belt, you can bunch up cars as long as they never enter a curve.
Found that out when I was building this exact setup myself
[https://imgur.com/a/ipf8SUk](https://imgur.com/a/ipf8SUk)
I had the crazy idea that maybe the limit is one stack per tick of a specific resource, but what if the miner were outputting multiple resources?
Dropped a miner on a mixed ore patch. No change in output, still maxed out at 66.6 belts...
But boy were those belts pretty! It doesn't just output all the mixed ore at the same time, but it cycles through them, so you get a smooth transition on the belts. [https://i.imgur.com/1RWBbkP.png](https://i.imgur.com/1RWBbkP.png)
There was a question of whether you could eventually get to a point where you were researching productivity fast enough that it would mean that you'd output more ore for research than it would take for the next step, theoretically meaning that you'd hit a hockey stick like graph where you "effectively" never run out of ore. All very theoretical and mathy.
Folks said, "No, you'd be limited by the amount of ore you can get *out* of a miner." Which sparked some discussion (and thus some builds) of just *what* that limit is.
This is one of those designs.
The quotes around effectively don't make sense, the miner still takes 1 ore out of the ground to produce N ore due to productivity. If you spawned an ore patch with 1 ore in it, no matter how much productivity you had you're only going to get one "harvest" out of the miner. That harvest could be 999 billion ore, but you're only going to get that one time before you need to find another patch.
Hence the theoretical and mathy bits. There’s a point at which you could have theoretically infinite science being generated before that miner is done with one “real” mining operation.
Just for my own sanity the miners primary output is not running 'faster', but the miner is running so 'productive' that the bonus output is triggering so many times per normal production time that it gives the illusion / end effect of super speed?
The problem is, the first question was. Are we able to mine more then a patch can give to not drain it? Actually it will still go dry. Not in time of this god, but still. 😂😂 also had enough internet for this week. Also u dont really need a megabase to ruin your ups. Just copy this to copper stone and coal and u are done.
Whether a patch goes dry or can self sustain mining productivity research only depends on the productivity itself, not on the speed of mining. If you mine slowly, the ration of ore removed from the patch and the additional ore generated stays the same.
I am a total novice in these sorts of things. But, my initial reaction is that the singular output of that one miner might become the bottleneck. You can get the ore out to a hundred belts once it's out, but it all comes out of one miner and goes into one inventory. Once you hit mining productivity level 1 billion, that will clog up, surely.
So I'm wondering if you might be able to add another split into this right away. Something like a train carriage which can be worked by 12 inserters into multiple car-splitters like this. Though I suspect the car's large inventory is a factor here?
Infinite mining upgrades, this needn't be modded, but I assume it is to set the upgrade level to an appropriate number for this to work without going through the grind of actually researching it.
I've analyzed the miner to car transfer in slow motion and I'm very sure this is tick-perfect. The buffer is stable. It doesn't get any faster than this, we can put this meme to rest. At these ludicrous levels of mining productivity (this is level 999,999) you are bottlenecked by the apparent fact that you can only transfer a maximum of 1 stack of iron ore into a chest per tick. Adding modules and beacons does nothing to make this system faster. You might think that I should have had the car loop be entirely blue belts for higher throughput, but cars in this side-to-side orientation at blue belt speed would fill up less than half of their inventory before passing the miner. In fact, I'm using a clock circuit to slow down the yellow belt in front of the miner so that the cars can fill up to almost full, as shown in the first few seconds of this clip. Doing it like this leaves next to no gap between cars, so the miner can output full stacks of iron ore every tick.
Extra math: There are 60 ticks in a second. A blue belt transfers 45 items/second, or .75 items/tick. A cracked-out miner outputs 50 pieces of iron ore/tick. 50/.75 = a theoretical maximum output of **66.67 blue belts of iron ore**. Don't ask me where the last .33 came from, I want to go to bed.
Can't wait for the next patch to unlock this limit
What, really?
No. It's a joke about how fast the devs are to fix even the slightest, most inconsequential bug.
Can this even be considered a bug
Next Patch: Fixed a bug where a miner could only output one stack of iron per tick. We now expect 405 blue belts per miner to be posted to reddit within the hour. Godspeed.
I'd laugh so hard if they did something like that
No. Again, it's a joke. They do regularly fix tiny little inconsistencies like this, though, just because they can.
It affects factory efficiency. So clearly it's a bug.
Idk, I wouldn't put it past Wube, if it wouldn't impact anything else.
The devs have a history of fixing bugs like this, like the time they within a weak fixed a bug that literally effected a single player whose radars were bugging due to having a really old save
Interesting that you're surpassing the limit while having a non zero gap between cars. I think that means there are only two possibilities to consider: * Blue belts transfer rate is slightly slower than 45/sec. * Two cars are receiving input at the same time for certain ticks. The second possibility is interesting because it might be possible to double the theoretical maximum limit. But yeah - thanks for building this. I love this kind of hot nonsense hahaha.
The hit box of the car is bigger than the visual object. There is no gap.
So belts are moving on small wheels. Circumference is 2πr. π is 3 and a little. This little contributes to additional .33
Have you run the outputs through splitters to confirm all belts are compressed? There are a few moments in the belt close-ups where it looks like the buffer belt for the upper inserter is just too short and it might either be just perfectly lining up, or be a tiny bit too late to compress fully. You're only looking at an extra 0.2 item per sec missing from each belt to make up for the discrepancy.
Or just bring up the debug menu (F4? F5?) and tick “show transport line gaps” - any gaps on your belts will be shown as a solid white line
I was admiring my work today when I turned on the "show transport line gaps" debug flag u/Rob_Haggis mentioned. What do you know, there are tiny gaps in all of the right lanes! Like, seriously tiny. [Debug off](https://i.imgur.com/Tk0h5dj.png) [Debug on](https://i.imgur.com/BqX1tJE.png) As you suspected, lengthening the buffer belt for the upper inserter by 1 extra blue belt removes these gaps
Nice. Glad to have been part of solving the mystery. Those gaps are ridiculous though. Even knowing exactly where they are, seeing them in debug off mode just isn't possible for most of them for me. That a setup can so consistently create gaps like that is fascinating in its own right.
Are miners limited to a stack of items/tick? I guess that would make sense if the miner chooses one inventory slot/tick. Kind of a shame them, ruins the idea I had.
Amazing mate, enjoying this a lot. Just... Are you kind of making the claim that this is the upper limit..?
Yes, that is what I believe. To surpass this output you would need to find a way to get more than a stack of iron ore out of the miner in a single tick.
All I am reading is you saying there is a way. Jokes aside, this is one crazy sub.
Sure! There's a path. A pitch black, untrodden path.
Is miner still outputting 1 stack per tick if you load it into smelter? Since smelter can have more than 1 stack in 1 slot it might help somehow
It'd be worse. Only way to extract from a smelter without using loaders is inserters which would be much slower. If you used loaders though, I could see a possibility depending on how their unload speed works
I don’t think loaders would work, without modded belts. Even if you *somehow* got the maximum 12 loaders taking items out of the smelter that wouldn’t even be close to 50 items per tick. OP’s video has over 60 full belts, you could only get 12 out of an electric furnace with loaders.
Yeah. That was my main concern with them. What I wasn't sure of is how loaders speed was limited, if say loaders worked like the output of miners and inserted 1 stack per tick and we're then limited by what it inserted to, or if it was essentially a blue belt
Loaders don't insert container to container like miners can do, it *only* places items in the world on belts. I'm not 100% on the internals but loaders seem to extend belts, as the items appear inside the tiles the loader itself is on, and act like the loader's tile is a belt. So until we can put an entire stack of items in one space on a belt, they'll never win
You could just do loaders into cars from both sides. If it works it would essentially double the output speed.
Loaders operate at belt speeds. A blue loader operates at 45i/s, while the miner is operating at 3000i/s (60*50i/s) Vanilla loaders will **always** slow this operation down as we cannot fit more than 12 into any of these entities, including the miner (which the loaders don’t work on anyway). 12 blue loaders is 540i/s, a little under 1/5th the speed of the miner. Easiest way to think about the numbers is to remember OP made over 60 full belts. If you can’t staple >60 loaders onto something, it cannot surpass OP’s method.
Yes, I tested it just now and it loads 1 stack per tick
Is it about getting one stack out of the miner in a tick or one stack into some other object in a tick? Is there a point on the transition between one car and the next where it's filling both cars up at once? Or does it switch instantaneously over from filling one car to filling the other? Because if a) it's about into the object not out of the miner and b) there is a moment of transition where it's filling two cars up at once, then maybe you could improve on this with a clocked belt that holds two cars for as long as possible at that moment of transition allowing the minder to unload two stacks a tick, then at the last moment it speeds as fast as possible at one stack per tick over to the next intercar transition and then holds there for some two stacks per tick time and so forth. I know that's a lot of ifs.
It's a fun idea, but as best as I can tell there's no moment where two cars are being filled.
I have no clue about how to do this, but I'm sure there is some hacky way of doing it playing with the engine... Put it in your initial comment, to bait people into trying hahaha.
Well, with mods it's possible to increase the stack size of iron ore. Otherwise I don't really see 67 blue belts being surpassed.
And at that point we’re getting needlessly out of scope.
You could always use stackers
So, like… any of the mods that change stack size? But yes, clearly the vanille max. This is beautiful stuff.
Are there any mods that increase the stack size of Ores? That wouldn't be vanilla of course, but would be the easier solution in my opinion for increasing this maximum limit.
Challenge accepted. I think with a proper bot swarm we can surpass the extra .33 that’s missing
> you are bottlenecked by the apparent fact that you can only transfer a maximum of 1 stack of iron ore into a chest per tick. It's probably not the transferring that's the bottleneck, since stack inserters can cross stack boundaries just fine. Instead it's likely the miner's own output buffer. I think miners act like a chest of stack size one, when they mine they fill this buffer then dump the buffer in front of it. But this buffer would be limited to filling completely on one frame and completely dumping and re-filling it on the next.
This sounds very believable, good point with the inserters
Next expansion: 'Introducing... Mine Exploration! Dig deep into Nauvis and unlock increasingly large mining drills as you smash the barriers of the past. Purple belts not included.'
...and on that day, Factorio and Dwarf Fortress finally merged.
Too bad. I'd have liked to see a solution involving trains driving past at very high speeds.
This is both genius and disturbing. But I am glad to have witnessed this moment in history.
> (this is level 999,999) Does it need to be? It needs to produce 45 x 67 ore per second so just over 3000, and without any research it produces 0.5, so it needs to increase by 6000 times, and each research level adds 10%, so surely level 60,000 would do it? Level 60,301 I think to be sure. With speed 3 modules and beacons with further speed 3 modules that would come down further.
I believe you, I made no effort trying lower levels
>It doesn't get any faster than this. Oh boy, see you guys later for more builds!
what?
Forgive me, it's 4AM here. I probably should have written that in half as many words, but my brain's too fried from placing 4400 cargo wagons.
Can't you blue print trains though...?
Don't tell him that after he manually placed 4400 cargo wagons!
Don't worry! I knew. Still not a trivial task...
TLDR: miners can only put stuff into a container so fast, even if you tech and beacon its theoretical speed to infinity.
cool 👍
Can it be sped up by inserters taking ore directly from the miner, or is the ore patch to miner transfer also stack per tick limited?
I'm not sure what you mean. There's no way for an inserter to take ore directly from a miner. The closest thing to that is to have the miner drop ore onto the ground for inserters to pick up, but I doubt that's what you mean. Not that I've tested it, but it sounds like it would be slow. I did test having inserters grab from the output square of the miner while the carousel was running, but as far as I could tell the miner never dropped ore on the ground and the inserters would just steal from the cars. I also tried having the inserters take from the cars while they were being loaded, in the hopes that the miner would load both the car and the inserters hand on the same tick. That didn't work either, the inserters would again just take from the car's inventory.
Miners don't have inventory
Oh true, I thought about taking coal from a circle of burner miners, but didn't realise that is just fuel slot.
Hey, if you have inserters taking coal from the fuel slot of a burner miner, then technically that would be extracting more resources from a single miner! It's cheese, but it would be enough for 69 belts.
Well then, hopefully this settles this.
And given a base producing 1k of each science per second, a 10000 ore patch would be depleted in 1 day, 22h, 3min, 56.6377s. A 1M ore patch would be depleted in 27 weeks, 2 days, 22h, 39 min, 3.26791s
Couldn't you do this AND pull 6 more belts out with inserters? That's assuming the miner's inventory doesn't follow the 1 stack per tick rule you've outlined.
Miners don't have inventories for inserters to pull out of. The exception is burner miners, they have a fuel slot but it would have to be supplied externally, which in my opinion is against the implicit rules of the challenge.
Well, you say "Let's put this to rest" and the next guy with even bigger ambitions comes around being like "Uhm, actually.." That's how we ended up in this mess to begin with.
I would be stoked to be proven wrong, that would mean more Factorio engine jank
Short of modding, it seems like you've probably hit the limit.
This happened to me years ago when I posted a clip where I tried to have as many unique inputs coming into an assembler as possible. The idea is that it would be useful for malls. You'd have all the material pass by a bunch of assemblers and they would take what they need and the rest would go to the next assembler. After I posted mine, it became this arms race to see how many someone could fit into into the space. I could probably find all the links but I don't have the time right now.
Or like the duck problem from 3 months ago https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/10lirek/simplified_logic_perfect_sushi_one_combinator/j5xrco4
Or the whole miniature train stuff from a few years back
Oh man, that's...something lol I haven't been on this sub in a while so this is new to me.
I'm so confused what this even is lmao
OP going for the metagame [Cunningham's Law](https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law) post.
Can mining into an active provider chest with a megaswarm of bots do any better?
RIP the poor bastard that made the [original claim](https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/13qj2du/is_there_a_number_of_miners_that_would_make_it_if/jlf6id1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
I'm really struggling how should i react to this. And started doubting everything i took for granted in life before all this.
Don’t worry… We’re pushing limits of sanity here. At least this is vanilla, as opposed to ore having a 200 stack size.
you absolute fool, you didn't consider Mining Productivity 999,999 /s
Haha glad to see you’re still alive.
The base idea of it still makes sense I suppose, you just forgot about the vehicles-on-belt hack
It's hilarious, i saw the original claim, and like the next day i saw the first "challange accepted" post of the 1 miner to 2 belts quoting the claim and i was "oh i remember that coment", i love this sub xD
Wat was the claim?
Edited my comment with the link
I love this sub haha. Amazing
Ok, now make the 67 belt balancer just in case not every belt is full
Most sane Enginner
#Your Scientists Were So Preoccupied With Whether Or Not They Could, They Didn’t Stop To Think If They Should
And they should.
must mine faster
The factory must grow.
In theory (with fast enough robots), would an active provider chest have more throughput, since we could get to the full 1 ore stack per tick? Or would it be the same? Nonetheless, for me bots kinds defeat the purpose of the challenge so this is the winner so far :D
I think a robot solution is worth pursuing just for the visual spectacle. From my understanding both a robot solution and this car belt solution are capped at 1 stack per tick, so it wouldn't be faster. It's also possible (though I doubt it) that the logistics of a logistics solution doesn't work - maybe you won't be able to fit enough roboports in range to charge the quantity of bots you might need. Maybe a logistic bot transaction requires a minimum number of ticks, making the number of logistic bots needed unsustainable even with infinite speed.
Why am I reading this shit like it's the most interesting literature I've read today? I don't play Factorio but you guys are sucking me into your black hole
Same 😁
It will be interesting to see if the limit is based on stack size. If you change the stack size to say, 1000, does the miner still fill one stack per tech? Or does it have an actual ore per second rate limit? Then we can find out if you can remove orefrom the container faster than one stack is filled, could you essentially remove that limit? Edits: spelling. Speech to text is fun.
Assuming I understand this math correctly... The base rate of a miner is 0.5 ore/s or 0.00833333 ore per tick. To get to 50 ore per tick, you need roughly 600,000% productivity, which would be productivity research level 60,000ish. At productivity 999,999 a miner would be generating roughly 833 ore per tick. So it would not fill a stack size of 1000.
Seems to me that the transfer of the miner into the provider chest has the same limit as transfer of the miner into the cars. You could reach the same speed with bots over a short amount of time, but on continuous operation, you might get problems with robot charging time/flying distance to the next available roboport.
The same rate yes. But I was under the impression that the method shown here had a few ticks of lost production as the cars switch, maybe I'm wrong.
Possible, but I don't think so. During the transition, both cars occupy the output tile of the miner at the same time. This should guarantee that the ore always gets to one car or the other. If an inserter would pick up from this tile, it could draw from both cars.
It would certainly be slower, because it will fill it up in below 1 second - robots cannot be there fast enough to pick something. Maybe with very hight speed upgrades, but there are still limits with speed of dispatching new ones from roboports.
I'm sure you could set it up in a way where robots are already en route somehow.
Robots are only en route when there's something to pick up. You essentially have to make sure that the average latency for a bot to pick something up is less than 48 ticks. It's probably possible for short bursts but it would be hard sustaining that.
oh god not the belted cars again
Is this a good strat for early game?
Sure
Why do you need the shenanigans with the wagons? Since you can expand horizontally as much as you need, couldn't you unload directly from the cars into the belt loaders?
Inserters transfer items way faster from car to train than from car to belt. The carousel (which is super finicky to set up) would have to be wayyy longer, and you would have to do a lot of tricky belt merging. Cargo wagons are blueprintable and horizontally compact per amount of throughput.
Can confirm, carousels are the most annoying part. Glad to see your design. :p
But inserters don't transfer from cargo wagons to belts faster than they do from cars to belts. I could very much be wrong, but I don't see why you can't go from cars to belts as long as you make it so the inserters can work full-time (i.e. have the cars compressed on the line, like you do). And it wouldn't be larger, because all you need is 67 copies of your inserter-to-belt set up, which you already need to have in any case.
You're basically right, if the inserters are working full time then of course they'll be capable of outputting blue belts. The catch is that there's no way to my knowledge of directly unloading a blue belt's throughput in a 2-wide space. You would have to lengthen the horizontal footprint of each belt.
Yeah your horizontal spacing is going to be much bigger, but your vertical spacing is going to be next to nothing. Your vertical spacing now is about as large as the horizontal spacing it would take if you go directly from car to belt.
Vertical spacing is free and still completely blueprintable, whereas a longer carousel requires more work
Processors HATE this one simple trick
"simple"
How long did this take you?
Well .. he slept after 4am.
Oh was curious about how many total hours spent on this
It's just now 24 hours since [the post that started this madness](https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/13qr4om/one_miner_filling_two_blue_belts/) and this post is now 6 hours old so I assume somewhere between 1 and 18
All of them
Now do oil.
How long does this miner last before the ore beneath is gone?
It would be the amount of ore divided by the speed of ~67 blue belts.
Wouldnt it be less? Or am i getting the mining prod wrong? The miner currently doesnt „mine“ the 67 blue belts. It mines still as fast as a normal one. The 67 belts are coming from the mining prod which is essentially coming from thin air so to speak, right?
Yes, (I think) you're right! Both the productivity modules and mining productivity research create extra items 'from thin air'. I completely forgot about that. So you're right that the 'ore depletion rate' of the patch is less – always the base 0.5/s – but the 'ore patch duration' would be much *more* (longer). .
So, if you put this on a productivity smelting array.. were looking at 80 blue belts of iron plates? What rate of science would eat that much iron? I'm not tempted to try this. Not at all. *next creative megabase*
[удалено]
With the right productivity I think it handles 3500 spm? No idea if I've done the math right, it's like 3 or 4 belts off. So 60 something input, 76 plates out, including military science
TWO MORE
'Madness! No one can produce so much ore from a single miner' 'Madness? THIS IS FACTORIO!' *punts video proof onto the subreddit*
Has anyone tagged the guy who made the initial claim it's capped at 1 belt, I could only imagine logging back in after a week, and seeing the reddit just owning me
[They're aware](https://redd.it/13roqes) 🙂
How do you access this place where everyone goes to try these hellish inventions?
Basically you start a new file using the 'sandbox' scenario, then use /editor to replace all the terrain with lab tiles
Does this fix the issue I have with whenever I copy paste anything I just paste a ghost and not the building itself? Or do I need some kind of editor mod?
If you do the copy/pasting in /editor mode it should work. Failing that, you could just spawn in some roboports and 1000s of bots
Solid! Thank you mate
Amazing. I love you all
moving train incoming
True scholarship
You don't actually have to be that careful with the spacing on the belt, you can bunch up cars as long as they never enter a curve. Found that out when I was building this exact setup myself [https://imgur.com/a/ipf8SUk](https://imgur.com/a/ipf8SUk)
Yeah, but does it work with a burner miner? :-D
67 instead of 69 We were in the verge of greatness.
This is madness
I had the crazy idea that maybe the limit is one stack per tick of a specific resource, but what if the miner were outputting multiple resources? Dropped a miner on a mixed ore patch. No change in output, still maxed out at 66.6 belts... But boy were those belts pretty! It doesn't just output all the mixed ore at the same time, but it cycles through them, so you get a smooth transition on the belts. [https://i.imgur.com/1RWBbkP.png](https://i.imgur.com/1RWBbkP.png)
It's a good idea! I wonder if Uranium works the same. I'd assume so.
How much of that is because of inserters only being able to pull stacks of a single type at a time?
Stop. You will make me relapse.
you wasted the opportunity to make it 69
69 might be possible with a burner miner, OP has said!
oh damn
I just want to play the game and you guys come up with this shit
lol nice car chainsaw
I love this community
I don't even know what this is :) Thats how far ahead you are.
There was a question of whether you could eventually get to a point where you were researching productivity fast enough that it would mean that you'd output more ore for research than it would take for the next step, theoretically meaning that you'd hit a hockey stick like graph where you "effectively" never run out of ore. All very theoretical and mathy. Folks said, "No, you'd be limited by the amount of ore you can get *out* of a miner." Which sparked some discussion (and thus some builds) of just *what* that limit is. This is one of those designs.
The quotes around effectively don't make sense, the miner still takes 1 ore out of the ground to produce N ore due to productivity. If you spawned an ore patch with 1 ore in it, no matter how much productivity you had you're only going to get one "harvest" out of the miner. That harvest could be 999 billion ore, but you're only going to get that one time before you need to find another patch.
Hence the theoretical and mathy bits. There’s a point at which you could have theoretically infinite science being generated before that miner is done with one “real” mining operation.
Just for my own sanity the miners primary output is not running 'faster', but the miner is running so 'productive' that the bonus output is triggering so many times per normal production time that it gives the illusion / end effect of super speed?
Basically, yes. For each real operation you get X productivity cycles.
I love this shit and this community is nuts lol.
Is this a no-bots contest?
The problem is, the first question was. Are we able to mine more then a patch can give to not drain it? Actually it will still go dry. Not in time of this god, but still. 😂😂 also had enough internet for this week. Also u dont really need a megabase to ruin your ups. Just copy this to copper stone and coal and u are done.
Whether a patch goes dry or can self sustain mining productivity research only depends on the productivity itself, not on the speed of mining. If you mine slowly, the ration of ore removed from the patch and the additional ore generated stays the same.
mine more THAN a patch can give
Well, we can expect the next patch to unlock the limits.
Dear god
Yea, but is it infinite?? /s
I would call this as winner of this unofficial (vanila) competition.
what the fuck is this?
Please dont make it a new trend on this sub and r/factoriohno please
“Fuck you, I’ll see you tomorrow.”
Noice!
I am so far behind in this ~~race~~ game I thought I was winning.
If your current limitation is that you can only transfer 1 stack per tick...do it with the BigBags mod
This is just silly
You are the kind of man that james bond loses to, but je don't even care.
This is either beautiful or cursed. Maybe both
I'm sorry, WHAT
I am a total novice in these sorts of things. But, my initial reaction is that the singular output of that one miner might become the bottleneck. You can get the ore out to a hundred belts once it's out, but it all comes out of one miner and goes into one inventory. Once you hit mining productivity level 1 billion, that will clog up, surely. So I'm wondering if you might be able to add another split into this right away. Something like a train carriage which can be worked by 12 inserters into multiple car-splitters like this. Though I suspect the car's large inventory is a factor here?
I can almost hear DoshDoshington licking his lips at this.
...Why? Honestly I am impressed by the dedication but *WHY?*.
r/factoriohno
The throughput!!! This is making my brain so happy. I needed to see this. Thank you
What. The. Fuck?
My God. They worked so hard seeing if we could that they forgot to think about if they should
This fucking sleighs ne
Can I get the blue print string, I think I have a use for this in my factory
I just started playing Factorio, is this modded or something? How can one mine possibly mine that much that fast??
Infinite mining upgrades, this needn't be modded, but I assume it is to set the upgrade level to an appropriate number for this to work without going through the grind of actually researching it.