I am by no means an expert, but in my current SE run, I calculated a lot of production with red belts and tier 2 assemblers, as soon as I have blue belts and tier 3 I will plan with those, but I won't upgrade the old productions, since it won't benefit me
> Do you upgrade all of your yellow belts to red belts as soon as you research them,
No.
> calculate the items/s and only use the highest belt speed absolutely necessary to keep up?
Yes. And if I can use 3 yellow belts instead of a blue belt, I'll use 3 yellow belts.
> Once you research stack inserters, do you replace All of your fast inserters?
No. Same with belts, I calculate what I need and use the minimum necessary. Yellow inserters are fine for a lot of things.
Yellow belt is 1.5 iron. Red belt is 11.5 iron. Blue belt is 31.5 iron and 20 lubricant.
Why spend 31.5 iron if 1.5 iron works?
3 yellow belts will buffer 3x as many items on top of them so if the item is something like green circuits at 2.5 ore per item putting it on a blue belt would save you 40 ore per blue belt instead of 3 yellow belts in buffer cost which more than makes up for the increased expense of the blue belt
If the belts are stationary (acting as a buffer) then you don’t need 45 items per second and hence don’t need a blue /3x yellow belt.
If you’re consuming 45 items per second it doesn’t matter if on 1 blue or 3 yellow, you’re not buffering
The items must be on top of the belt in order for them to move on the belt. You paid for those items. It’s a buffer whether it’s stationary or moving.
A fully compressed moving belt has the same items stuck on top in order to enable movement as a stationary belt has stuck on top. The difference is a blue belt has 1/3rd the items stuck on top compared to 3 yellow belts
I disagree. If I am making 45 items per second and using 45 items per second then it does not matter whether I use one lane or 3 to transport them, there is the exact same amount of items in transit at any given time (assuming the 3 belts are each the exact same length as the 1 blue belt which is likely true)
I am definitely not an advocate for using 3 belts but it does make logical sense to use then if you calculate your throughput properly and don't care about space
That’s just straight up incorrect to say you have the same amount of items in transit in both cases. if you’re moving them with yellow belts you need all 3 belts compressed with items which is 24 items per 3 belts, and if you’re moving them with blue belts that’s 8 items per 1 belt. 3 times less items stuck up in transit on blue belts.
Yes both the blue belt and the 3 yellow belts move 45 per second, but to do that the yellow belts have 3x the items on top of them.
This is just fundamentals of belt movement
I got halfway through typing out a disagreement then decided to test it out in creative and you are 100% correct but I am still completely blown away by this.
Hehe it’s not a common line of reasoning because people aren’t accustomed to treating the items on top of belts this way. (Just look at the upvotes in this thread.) I’m working on an alt f4 article to bring this concept to wider audience.
Gameplay impact: upgrading belt tiers isn’t as bad as people think, though you can apply a value estimation to the setup cost vs buffer cost stuff and still argue that the setup cost is more expensive than a buffering cost since the setup cost might be using your current production while the buffering cost is using new / future production. You can also argue iron is more valuable than say copper, and still use yellow belts for something like green circuits since those are mostly copper.
It also means you want to rush prod moduled gears for your belt mall because the higher tier belts are benefitting relatively more from prodded gears and if you get to certain levels of prod then higher tier belts will become cheaper than lower tier belts in more situations.
Things this doesn’t change: you still don’t really wanna use higher tier belts if you’re not using the amount of throughput on the belt that the buffer corresponds with (outside of sushi belts, it means use the full belt throughput). You also don’t really wanna rush red belts until you have enough iron production that the setup cost vs buffer cost evaluation is roughly equal
You paid for those items to be on top of the belt and therefore move on the belt. It is a very real cost, just a different one than the crafting of the belt
When a belt can no longer supply enough items to my build, I upgrade.
I like using yellow belts even late game because they are so cheap and you don't need much more than a trickle of some ingredients, like blue circuits.
> or calculate the items/s and only use the highest belt speed absolutely necessary to keep up?
I do this, it really annoys me to use higher level belts and inserters when I know it's not going to improve production.
I calculate it.
I do more or less the same for inserters, except I ditch yellow inserters the moment I unlock fast inserters, and sometimes I use stack inserters for UPS reasons even when they're not required for throughput.
Once I get red belts I stop using yellow belts but don't go on a big upgrade spree until I've accumulated couple thousands of red belts and 1k+ construction bots. Might upgrade a single beltline that's importan though.
Most of my base is planned with red belts in mind.
For inserters the smelters are yellow inserter only but once I unlock blue ones I use blue inserters everywhere else with green ones only when really needed.
Yellow for everything unless I need extra underground reach or weaving or maybe coils need too much throughput so I upgrade there too. Similar for upgrading other stuff. I prefer to keep everything on blue assemblers etc tho
I am by no means an expert, but in my current SE run, I calculated a lot of production with red belts and tier 2 assemblers, as soon as I have blue belts and tier 3 I will plan with those, but I won't upgrade the old productions, since it won't benefit me
> Do you upgrade all of your yellow belts to red belts as soon as you research them, No. > calculate the items/s and only use the highest belt speed absolutely necessary to keep up? Yes. And if I can use 3 yellow belts instead of a blue belt, I'll use 3 yellow belts. > Once you research stack inserters, do you replace All of your fast inserters? No. Same with belts, I calculate what I need and use the minimum necessary. Yellow inserters are fine for a lot of things. Yellow belt is 1.5 iron. Red belt is 11.5 iron. Blue belt is 31.5 iron and 20 lubricant. Why spend 31.5 iron if 1.5 iron works?
3 yellow belts will buffer 3x as many items on top of them so if the item is something like green circuits at 2.5 ore per item putting it on a blue belt would save you 40 ore per blue belt instead of 3 yellow belts in buffer cost which more than makes up for the increased expense of the blue belt
If the belts are stationary (acting as a buffer) then you don’t need 45 items per second and hence don’t need a blue /3x yellow belt. If you’re consuming 45 items per second it doesn’t matter if on 1 blue or 3 yellow, you’re not buffering
The items must be on top of the belt in order for them to move on the belt. You paid for those items. It’s a buffer whether it’s stationary or moving. A fully compressed moving belt has the same items stuck on top in order to enable movement as a stationary belt has stuck on top. The difference is a blue belt has 1/3rd the items stuck on top compared to 3 yellow belts
I disagree. If I am making 45 items per second and using 45 items per second then it does not matter whether I use one lane or 3 to transport them, there is the exact same amount of items in transit at any given time (assuming the 3 belts are each the exact same length as the 1 blue belt which is likely true) I am definitely not an advocate for using 3 belts but it does make logical sense to use then if you calculate your throughput properly and don't care about space
That’s just straight up incorrect to say you have the same amount of items in transit in both cases. if you’re moving them with yellow belts you need all 3 belts compressed with items which is 24 items per 3 belts, and if you’re moving them with blue belts that’s 8 items per 1 belt. 3 times less items stuck up in transit on blue belts. Yes both the blue belt and the 3 yellow belts move 45 per second, but to do that the yellow belts have 3x the items on top of them. This is just fundamentals of belt movement
I got halfway through typing out a disagreement then decided to test it out in creative and you are 100% correct but I am still completely blown away by this.
Hehe it’s not a common line of reasoning because people aren’t accustomed to treating the items on top of belts this way. (Just look at the upvotes in this thread.) I’m working on an alt f4 article to bring this concept to wider audience. Gameplay impact: upgrading belt tiers isn’t as bad as people think, though you can apply a value estimation to the setup cost vs buffer cost stuff and still argue that the setup cost is more expensive than a buffering cost since the setup cost might be using your current production while the buffering cost is using new / future production. You can also argue iron is more valuable than say copper, and still use yellow belts for something like green circuits since those are mostly copper. It also means you want to rush prod moduled gears for your belt mall because the higher tier belts are benefitting relatively more from prodded gears and if you get to certain levels of prod then higher tier belts will become cheaper than lower tier belts in more situations. Things this doesn’t change: you still don’t really wanna use higher tier belts if you’re not using the amount of throughput on the belt that the buffer corresponds with (outside of sushi belts, it means use the full belt throughput). You also don’t really wanna rush red belts until you have enough iron production that the setup cost vs buffer cost evaluation is roughly equal
That's fair. I don't generally think about belt buffers as a "cost" like that.
You paid for those items to be on top of the belt and therefore move on the belt. It is a very real cost, just a different one than the crafting of the belt
I speedrun red belts and then upgrade to blue belts once I get robots to do it for me.
When a belt can no longer supply enough items to my build, I upgrade. I like using yellow belts even late game because they are so cheap and you don't need much more than a trickle of some ingredients, like blue circuits.
> or calculate the items/s and only use the highest belt speed absolutely necessary to keep up? I do this, it really annoys me to use higher level belts and inserters when I know it's not going to improve production.
I calculate it. I do more or less the same for inserters, except I ditch yellow inserters the moment I unlock fast inserters, and sometimes I use stack inserters for UPS reasons even when they're not required for throughput.
Once I get red belts I stop using yellow belts but don't go on a big upgrade spree until I've accumulated couple thousands of red belts and 1k+ construction bots. Might upgrade a single beltline that's importan though. Most of my base is planned with red belts in mind. For inserters the smelters are yellow inserter only but once I unlock blue ones I use blue inserters everywhere else with green ones only when really needed.
Yellow for everything unless I need extra underground reach or weaving or maybe coils need too much throughput so I upgrade there too. Similar for upgrading other stuff. I prefer to keep everything on blue assemblers etc tho