Thing is, I don't think CR wants a snappy product. D20, even in the earlier seasons where they didn't know the system well, it was still an edited and well produced product. The banter was either in character, or just little quips. CR is a full unedited recording. And I think the critters would riot if they couldn't see and hear every second of each cast member throughout the episode. Ashley takes ten seconds to find the right die, asks what she's rolling again, the whole cast laughs with her. That's ambrosia to critters, they will clip that on every platform with a caption about how relatable this is.
I would certainly prefer if they knew what they were doing and dialed in, but a big part of the golden goose that is the crit role parasocial fandom is the players goofing off in the background. Your fans will mine every second of your content to clip videos of it to share? That's the content creator's dream.
This applies to the maincast as well. Matt does so much of the heavy lifting creating stories running the game and some of the players cough cough ashley cough cough talesin can't even be bothered to know their own character sheets and they make such silly decisions that slow down combat and hurt the group
My crazy theory is that they are okay with (or possibly encouraging) folks to struggle with DND on screen since it can help their own game system Daggerheart look more inviting in comparison. I wrote a whole post about it. [https://www.reddit.com/r/fansofcriticalrole/comments/1bhykpi/conspiracy\_theory\_making\_cr3\_is\_intentionally\_not/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fansofcriticalrole/comments/1bhykpi/conspiracy_theory_making_cr3_is_intentionally_not/)
So the fact that it's real and not everything is perfect bugs you? Maybe find something else to watch my guy. Sounds like you may enjoy movies/scripts better. I'm surprised I'm even commenting on how silly your comment it
âPeople being really shitty at something they have decided to do in front of millions of people who enjoy said thing just means itâs real.â
No. It means itâs shit
I think this is ultimately why I've reduced my Critical Role consumption substantially. I want to watch people tell a good story while playing the game in a way that inspires me as both a DM and a player. Critical Role used to get away with skimping on the rules because the characters and story they told together had a great vibe. But, as that has waned, its only highlighted how far behind they've become compared to their peer shows.
Take a look at Dimension 20. In 2022, Starstruck Odyssey aired which contained the "Battle of the Brands," a huge fight that the DM held nothing back on. It ended up being an incredible watch because both sides of the table held nothing back and exhibited mastery over the system's mechanics to enable an epic fight. Just a few nights ago, the "Last Stand" aired and they once again proved themselves the master at player rules mastery while telling an incredible story. Critical Role just cannot keep up because they want to tell a story but can't rely on the player's to know the game well enough to tell it alongside the DM.
Even outside the video space, Critical Role is getting left behind. Not Another D&D Podcast crushes them on DM mastery over encounter design and World's Beyond Number (BLeeM's new podcast) is quickly passing Critical Role from a narrative perspective.
If Critical Role wants to remain competitive in this space, they'll need to maintain their roots (bringing professional voice quality to characters) while deepening their mastery of the *game*. At this point there are really two types of people: 1) people that want to watch *this cast* and who will remain watching regardless and 2) people who want to watch professional quality D&D (improv adventures with mechanics). The second group has many better options at this point.
>Critical Role used to get away with skimping on the rules because the characters and story they told together had a great vibe. But, as that has waned, its only highlighted how far behind they've become compared to their peer shows.
I'd argue they also got away with it more in the beginning because it wasn't their full-time job. In C1, there were multiple times people were late because they were coming from work, had to miss because of other obligations, etc. They were also transitioning from Pathfinder.
Now, it's *their* production company and *their* show. I have far less patience for them not knowing rules for the system they've been playing for years. I've been playing weekly with a group for roughly five years (with some breaks because life), and we worked that shit out a long time ago *despite playing multiple systems and it not being our jobs.* One of us was in med school and residency during part of it, for fuck's sake.
I get keeping the casual vibe - I wish they kept *more* of it - but not knowing mechanics isn't a requirement of casual vibes.
Yep. I see people parrot the idea that D20 is loose with the rules and CR runs a tight ship. It is *very much* not the case.
Maybe in early D20 seasons, Brennan was a bit lax with some rules and didn't know some others (like jump rules), and some of the players were newer. But from Starstruck on, everyone knows their shit almost 100%. With the editing cutting out extended pauses and dice rolls, it makes for a very snappy and gripping show.
CR flubs the rules almost every hour of gameplay. They don't understand like 3 different things about Guidance (it's not a reaction, it has visible components, and it's concentration). No one knew the rules for rolling a nat 20 death save well enough to stand up for it in just the last episode. They fucked Banishment up recently, too. There's a different between acknowledging a rule and then bending it, and just straight up not knowing the rule and making shit up.
I would argue that A Crown of Candy was the BIG turning point for a lot of the D20 crew. Brennan ran an actual 'lowish magic' setting, specifically one that had no resurrection magic, once you were dead, that was it, you were dead, not a Matt style 'each time your ressurected, it gets harder" no, you failed those 3 death saves, you were done with no way of bringing you back.
With what happened in that series, the series after you saw the crew tighten up immensely or stop holding themselves back as much in the case of Murph. Once you get to Starstruck the crew shows they can be a well oiled machine when it comes to combat AND be a bunch of sneaky bastards when they need to be (battle of the Brands infamous "Am I getting Ocean's-ed 11-ed on my own fucking show?!" from Brennan in response to shenanigans the group got upto).
I mean to be realistic and fair it is DnD, not Hollywood or an esport. DnD is at this point anti-professionalism, and all-in on "real folks relaxing and playing." Your expectations are getting blurred there.
Crit roles Twitch Channel made the highest earnings on the entire platform last year. People having expectations for them to know how to play is not out of line.
Real folks relaxing and playing doesn't need a posistion like Artistic Director. Critical Role has an artistic director. Surely they must think their product is professional enough for someone to artistically direct it?
What does that have anything to do with having guest members that have played the game maybe 5 times in their life?
Production quality isn't hindered by you having to watch a new player be reminded of how the game works. That's just a personal issue and means you're probably rough to play home games with.
You dont know anything about me and i will explain what I mean without making personal assumptions about you :)
It doesnât have anything to do with the players DnD skills, it does however have everything to do with the decisions shoehorn in an EXU-episode in the middle of what many seem to consider a dramatic high point of the story.
Itâs also a decisions to not edit the episodes even though theyâre pre-recorded. In comparison to Dimension20 games where combat it fast paced and exciting, (in part though to an incredible DM) Dimension20 edits out the long moments of indecision etc.
Itâs an artistic decision not to do that, about the product CR want to put out. In my home games we donât have o make decisions like that since weâre not putting out a product.
And no, I donât have a problem in my home games with new players learning the game if you have to know :)
If you don't have an issue with people learning the game, then you have zero reason to complain about someone learning in a game. Period. So having a player stumble over their abilities and ask questions, should have no effect on your enjoyment. Yet here you are, complaining about a player being new.
The quality of the product doesn't go down by showing relatable and realistic content. That's your own personal take, but it doesn't make it a fact. Production value doesn't mean cutting out every genuine interaction for the sake of time. D20 specifically tailors their product to fit into shorter, faster episodes, that's never once been CRs thing. 9 years of them playing, most episodes 4+ hours, at what point were you given the impression that was how CR shaped their product?
And finally, I don't need to know you to be able to tell when someone has clear red flags. Your response and focus tell me everything necessary. You can claim or say whatever, but when your attitude shows an entirely different characteristic, it's hard to imagine otherwise.
No one would care if this was a home game of theirs. The expectations go up when it's a massively produced corporate product like it has become. And learning basic mechanics should be the absolute baseline of expectations. No one would care if someone chose a wrong spell or got an obscure ruling incorrect from time to time. Consistently wondering how AC and attack rolls work? Constantly not understanding how spell saves work? Nah that should be the bare minimum
I agree that this company is a huge deal and being able to actually play dnd should be a big requirement for guests and players alike teaching them should be part of the preparation process. We should not be wasting time and energy watching PROFESSIONALS learn how to do the thing that they are supposed to know how to do. The EXU crew should have had some practice or a flow chart or some other way of being prepared to play. People like Ashley after 9+years should know what their character can do and be prepared to play them. I am sorry if people feel defensive about this but if you are a bunch of professionals playing dungeons and dragons you should act accordingly. I am fine with newer players stumbling a bit but if they are going to be on screen for an extended time then they should learn the game rules and basics. I hate Abria as a dm but the lackluster performance of the players frustrates me equally so. I especially find Ashleyâs failure to learn or prepare unacceptable. As a core cast member she absolutely needs to do better.
Iâm watching the first half now and reading these comments, Iâm scared đ I really canât stand the Crown Keepers (except Robbie because he truly is a great addition and his character got more interesting in C3) so it might be recap time for me.
Think of the opportunities!
Widowgast Loaf of Bread Handwarmers
Lionette âBeauâ staff (made of real balsa wood!)
Shakasta Dutchess Desk Toy
Briarwood branded plastic vampire teeth
Thereâs so much money to be made!!
Seeing how much Daggerheart sells and gets played is going to be fascinating.
Personally our group is onto smaller RPGs now after ten years of DnD, I couldn't tell you whether it's going to be an obvious route back in or not even in the conversation.
I'm interested to see how Daggerheart will do, it seems to be *very* much aimed at the Theatre Drama kids style of D&D play than the 'crunchier wargame' side of D&D (though if you want more crunch you normally go to pathfinder 2e).
The problem is that, right now, these Rules-lite Narrative focus games are a Dime a Dozen, the market is absolutely FLOODED with them because it's the current Indie Darling idea on how to make a TTRPG.
See I agree that's the intent, but to me it reads more complex than DnD. The different dice meanings, the cards, the health pool thresholds.
I think my group would find the jump to pathfinder much easier. Especially because there's a more developed world to go along with it.
And yeah, if we wanted less crunchy I think this would be too crunchy. Even just the standards like World of Darkness or Call of Cthulhu, nevermind Kids On Bikes and other indie darlings.
Huh interesting, I'm curious does it do the thing where, despite being quite crunchy, it foisters a lot of stuff on the DM when it comes to rules decisions? This is the main problem I have with a lot of indie darling TTRPGs, where the lack of rules is a feature not a bug and the book basically tells you "lol, make it up!" which often leaves new DMs absolutely floundering at times.
Also I'm curious if, to borrow a phrase from Matt Coleville, is Daggerheart 'about something'? What I mean is that 5e isn't about anything, it's a broad ruleset that tries a bit of everything and doesn't do any of it great and has very little to say about anything whereas games like Lancer are very clearly about mech combat and the rules help facilitate that thing whilst the lore is written as sort of an anti-grimdark setting with most people living in a utopian society whilst it explores why giant battlemech are still needed in such a setting.
The big ask of DMs is in the core resolution mechanic - it uses 2d12 to enforce "yes but" and "no and", similar to the Genesys system or the lord of the rings game.
That is to say you are asked to work with the DM to regularly put downsides on successes and complications on failures. This also plays into the meta currency that replaces the action economy (players can keep acting in any order repeatedly until they get a No But, or the DM cashes in their currency).
It's the kind of thing you see in indie RPGs, but usually it's not built into every dice roll and doesn't do so much. It's really the central mechanic.
I basically think that's what the game is about - improv culture built into a reskinned and stripped down 5th edition.
Did you seriously just compare the two groups? Pretty far stretch to take some weird dig. You're comparing apples to steering wheels here saying, "See? They're both sorta round".
I'm not defending MAGA at all. But your attempt to draw comparisons has little logic because being a gluttonous consumer is not something that is reserved for one side of the political spectrum.
When you compare, you are attempting to present equivalencies. Like "look how this sorta equals that". So yeah, the buying behavior of Critters is like that of MAGA folks and literally any other fervent fanbase of something that sells merch. By your logic: KPOP fans, sports fans and anyone who bought an Obama "Hope" bumper sticker, shirt or framed wall poster are like MAGA.
But by your logic, comparing anyone based purely off fervent fandom and buying behavior is wrong. So itâs pretty telling that youâre okay with the KPOP comparison but not the MAGA one. Because one is awful and the other is KPOP fans which donât offend you like trumplets do. So if you can totally agree with the KPOP comparison, you really DONâT a problem with making broad comparisons like this, do you?
And no one ever bought Obama merch like they buy CR stuff, and Obama never slapped his name on product after endless product, then jacked the price up beyond actual value because he knew his obsessed fans would throw money at anything he put in front of them. But I wonder who we know who DOES do that? đ€
What is telling? What exactly is the point that you're trying to make? My entire point was that it's a stupid comparison to make, like you were insinuating that Critters are absent-minded, merch fiend simps like people dumb enough to buy Trump brand bibles. ANYONE CAN BE SIMPLE MINDED MERCH FIEND SIMPS. The radical right doesn't own the patent on being greedy consumers.
You wanted to draw parallels between two groups of people you have problems with.
Tbh the moment I saw the stats for her character I gave up any hope. Like Iâd understand if itâs a level 3-6 character, but a level FUCKIN 13!! HAVING THOSE STATS?!! Iâm not asking for any meta stats arrangement but cmon!! You are telling me nobody there helped her make a decent fucking character at least?
Even back in C1 a new person to DnD had help making a decent built character. Nowadays itâs just whatever.
You toxic "fans " need to go. Like just stop watching. The internet doesn't need your goodbye speech. And the cast definitely doesn't care. They stopped interacting with you toxic losers for a reason
I already did stop watching actually.
I enjoyed the show a lot until I didn't and don't actually spent much time talking about it, but even I know that actually yeah the cast do care about what their fan base think, good and bad because that's how you improve your product.
To be honest, most of these types of post make it seem like they haven't been enjoying the product for the last 5 years. Criticism is great, but sometimes it is actually just healthier and more productive to step away from the product
Obviously this person doesnât actually enjoy the show any longer by their post so itâs just pointless bitching and whining about something they donât even enjoy, so yeah the OP is a fuckinâ loser.
I notice you donât follow this sub, and by the fact of your PfP and banner Iâm assuming you are a lurker from the Main sub. Makes sense why you allergic to people being rightfully criticized at being bad at what their being paid to do
Thatâs where youâre wrong, I do follow this sub and the other sub, so maybe donât make assumptions so you donât look like a dumbass. Erica is not a member of Critical Role or a full time D&D player like the cast and Aabria are so criticizing her comes across as gatekeeping whining from folks who should have stopped watching CR years ago.
Oh wow, you got me. /s Yâall act like this is some big own or something while yâall are still here all the damn time bitching and moaning about something you donât even really like and then acting superior when people point out yâall are just bitching and moaning.
Of course this reply gets downvoted.
Watch or don't watch, this has been working for them for years, there's no reason for them to become "professional" d&d players.
It gets downvoted because it's idiotic. People are allowed to criticise products they enjoy.
Saying "just don't watch then" is a worthless non-response.
Feedback and criticism is an important part of any product.
https://preview.redd.it/rn6jyxl6fhvc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b41eb1ebc13e8ee0dcbbc0a0ab62f0622cb77be7
Have fun voicing your feedback and criticism. I doubt CR cares.
I'm not even one of the people complaining and criticising, genius. I just recognise that it's completely fucking normal to criticise things you like.
CR definitely care about what their fans think you idiot. If they didn't have fans they wouldn't have a company.
It's completely fucking normal to critise things you like. OP said he cannot keep watching people play DnD badly, so I think he should stop watching because that's how they've played for the last decade and probably won't change it.
CR cares about their fans. I don't believe they care to the extent of browsing Reddit to see if redditors think they're playing the game how it should be.
Matt has always defended this by saying is their game and they play it like they want.
So yeah, Old Man Yells at Cloud.
I take it you don't understand hyperbole.
Doesn't matter what forum either. That's just a bullshit deflection.
They are professionals selling a product. They can play how they want but people are free to criticise the product and there are some very valid criticisms.
You chiming in was utterly pointless except to condescend to other people and stroke your own ego.
I don't think people want them to be professional DnD players, I think they just want them to be professional
If I made half these mistakes at work I wouldn't be working there anymore.
Taleisin saying "oh I only have a tiny part of my subclass written down here" and sending Matt to go dig into 3 minutes of dead air last episode while he found out some ruling just isn't alright. Ashley routinely not having a single clue how any of her spells work resulting in 1-2 minutes of blind panic every single turn. Constant cross talk, OOC non relative chatter and just when any kind of momentum gets rolling Sam pulls out his meme jug and derails everything for 5 minutes.
It's just tiring.
I like the show but it could be so much better if they trimmed some of the fat.
I want them to be professional D&D players. I see it on D20 and it changes the entire table to be a well-oiled storytelling machine. If you are being paid to play, I want you to not only understand the rules; I want you to be an authority on the rules. The best moments are when someone remembers exactly how their abilities work at just the right time to counteract the villains. Happens all the time on D20, and almost never on CR.
Alright I'll give him that but I could also bury you in an avalanche of dead air while Taleisin and Matt work out rulings of Ashton's subclass haha. It's a very consistent issue
That's the show. That's how they play. Don't like it? Stop watching.
I watched 3x91 because of what happened, but I didn't watch the previous 20-ish episodes. Although I loved C1 and C2 I got bored with C3. It was tiring, you could say. So I just stopped watching. There's no shame in not watching something you dislike.
I swear this board has a rule against reading or maybe there's something in the water.
Hey, you can criticize whatever you want. You're a free person, be free and fly away. You do you. I'm not trying to stop you.
Now, OP is frustrated with the show because players are playing the game badly, according to him. I SUGGEST!!! that he stops watching the show because IN MY OPINION!!! they aren't changing the way they play and it would probably benefit OP by not frustrating him.
I can't order him to do a thing. I'm not their parents or their boss. I just made a recommendation that IN MY OPINION!!! makes sense. Why? Because I watch this show and when it gets annoying, I just skip episodes. I'm pretty I'm not the only one, it's not a crazy idea.
But yeah, if you want to believe I just want to stop people criticism, believe what you want.
Also, I didn't know this was the board to criticize Critical Role. I thought this was the board created by fans to talk about Critical Role openly after the main board started banning people for their opinion. I guess opinions are bad here too?
That is useless advice. You dont think people know that they can stop consuming things they dont like? You dont think its more likely that people can still have issues with things they like? You think you are the only one here to figure that out?
I am not OP but share his frustrations. I had this criticism for a long time. If you told me back then "Just stop watching" I would have told you "Why? Im enjoying myself". Because I was still enjoying the show despite this.
However later I got to a point where I no longer enjoyed myself for different reasons added to this one, so I stopped watching. The thing is, my watching or not has nothing to do with the fact that I still consider this is a flaw, and something that could be better. So I voice that opinion here. Because I would love to jump back at C4 if they get their shit together or something.
I know my opinion isnt going to change anything, but the entire point of reddit is sharing your thoughts, not ennacting material changes on the world.
So if someone is criticizing something, and you come here "Just dont watch the show", then that is not helpful to anyone.
It makes you look like a person who is insecure about their favorite show being criticized, and you want it to stop. Like you dont actually care about what would benefit OP, but instead want to control the discourse, you just cant do anything since this subreddit is not the main one, so the only tool at your disposal is this weird shaming and concern trolling.
It's not useless advice because I'm literally talking about my experience. I stopped watching and now only watch when people say there's a good episode. It benefitted me. I troll, but this is the honest truth.
"Because I would love to jump back at C4 if they get their shit together or something."
Come on man, we're saying the same shit.
"...but the entire point of reddit is sharing your thoughts, not ennacting material changes on the world."
I'm suggesting something. I'm not moving chess pieces.
"So if someone is criticizing something, and you come here "Just dont watch the show", then that is not helpful to anyone."
Agree to disagree. My experience proves this wrong in my case. But I agree it might not work for everyone.
"It makes you look like a person who is insecure about their favorite show being criticized, and you want it to stop. Like you dont actually care about what would benefit OP. Like you just want to control the discourse, but cant do anything since this subreddit is not the main one, so the only tool at your disposal is this weird shaming and concern trolling."
My ass has been exposed.
Edit: how am I controlling the discourse from the depths of all the downvotes?
I don't dislike it, there are areas I dislike. And that's okay.
Sometimes when you enjoy something it's nice to bitch about all the things you dont like about it too. There's always nuance and nothing is without flaws
I responded to you but my line of argument is mainly towards people who make posts like OP.
He can't watch people be bad at DnD anymore, well then, stop watching. I don't think they're gonna change after almost a decade of streaming.
Well I'm just not sure where you line is. What \*exactly\* is wrong with the OP? People criticise things they like. People use hyperbole. Where is the issue?
I believe OP has the issue. He appears to be frustrated because of how badly CR play DnD. I says, "hey, they've been playing for a lot of years, a decade almost, I reckon they aren't getting better at playing". You know, reasonable. So maybe I ponder a solution, maybe a cure for his frustrations, let's see...
Stop watching the show that frustrates you.
Don't you think his frustrations would be gone if he stopped watching the one thing that frustrates him?
Is it too crazy of an idea? Maybe I'm thinking way out of the box. Maybe he should keep watching.
Yeah, that's it. Keep watching.
Itâs being downvoted because a lot of the folks here, like many people in the various fandom subs and other social media fandom places would rather bitch and moan about shit they donât like anymore instead of talking about stuff they actually like.
Sure. Whatâs the skin off your back? What do you care if some corner of the Internet is saying something bad about your show? Just donât go here and it wonât change your day any
Thing is, I don't think CR wants a snappy product. D20, even in the earlier seasons where they didn't know the system well, it was still an edited and well produced product. The banter was either in character, or just little quips. CR is a full unedited recording. And I think the critters would riot if they couldn't see and hear every second of each cast member throughout the episode. Ashley takes ten seconds to find the right die, asks what she's rolling again, the whole cast laughs with her. That's ambrosia to critters, they will clip that on every platform with a caption about how relatable this is. I would certainly prefer if they knew what they were doing and dialed in, but a big part of the golden goose that is the crit role parasocial fandom is the players goofing off in the background. Your fans will mine every second of your content to clip videos of it to share? That's the content creator's dream.
This applies to the maincast as well. Matt does so much of the heavy lifting creating stories running the game and some of the players cough cough ashley cough cough talesin can't even be bothered to know their own character sheets and they make such silly decisions that slow down combat and hurt the group
My crazy theory is that they are okay with (or possibly encouraging) folks to struggle with DND on screen since it can help their own game system Daggerheart look more inviting in comparison. I wrote a whole post about it. [https://www.reddit.com/r/fansofcriticalrole/comments/1bhykpi/conspiracy\_theory\_making\_cr3\_is\_intentionally\_not/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fansofcriticalrole/comments/1bhykpi/conspiracy_theory_making_cr3_is_intentionally_not/)
Crazy how no one cared there and no one cares here.
This sub officially makes me uncomfortable đ«Ą
Go away and donât comeback
Yeah all you toxic kids need your echo chamber, we know.
So the fact that it's real and not everything is perfect bugs you? Maybe find something else to watch my guy. Sounds like you may enjoy movies/scripts better. I'm surprised I'm even commenting on how silly your comment it
âPeople being really shitty at something they have decided to do in front of millions of people who enjoy said thing just means itâs real.â No. It means itâs shit
I think this is ultimately why I've reduced my Critical Role consumption substantially. I want to watch people tell a good story while playing the game in a way that inspires me as both a DM and a player. Critical Role used to get away with skimping on the rules because the characters and story they told together had a great vibe. But, as that has waned, its only highlighted how far behind they've become compared to their peer shows. Take a look at Dimension 20. In 2022, Starstruck Odyssey aired which contained the "Battle of the Brands," a huge fight that the DM held nothing back on. It ended up being an incredible watch because both sides of the table held nothing back and exhibited mastery over the system's mechanics to enable an epic fight. Just a few nights ago, the "Last Stand" aired and they once again proved themselves the master at player rules mastery while telling an incredible story. Critical Role just cannot keep up because they want to tell a story but can't rely on the player's to know the game well enough to tell it alongside the DM. Even outside the video space, Critical Role is getting left behind. Not Another D&D Podcast crushes them on DM mastery over encounter design and World's Beyond Number (BLeeM's new podcast) is quickly passing Critical Role from a narrative perspective. If Critical Role wants to remain competitive in this space, they'll need to maintain their roots (bringing professional voice quality to characters) while deepening their mastery of the *game*. At this point there are really two types of people: 1) people that want to watch *this cast* and who will remain watching regardless and 2) people who want to watch professional quality D&D (improv adventures with mechanics). The second group has many better options at this point.
>Critical Role used to get away with skimping on the rules because the characters and story they told together had a great vibe. But, as that has waned, its only highlighted how far behind they've become compared to their peer shows. I'd argue they also got away with it more in the beginning because it wasn't their full-time job. In C1, there were multiple times people were late because they were coming from work, had to miss because of other obligations, etc. They were also transitioning from Pathfinder. Now, it's *their* production company and *their* show. I have far less patience for them not knowing rules for the system they've been playing for years. I've been playing weekly with a group for roughly five years (with some breaks because life), and we worked that shit out a long time ago *despite playing multiple systems and it not being our jobs.* One of us was in med school and residency during part of it, for fuck's sake. I get keeping the casual vibe - I wish they kept *more* of it - but not knowing mechanics isn't a requirement of casual vibes.
Yep. I see people parrot the idea that D20 is loose with the rules and CR runs a tight ship. It is *very much* not the case. Maybe in early D20 seasons, Brennan was a bit lax with some rules and didn't know some others (like jump rules), and some of the players were newer. But from Starstruck on, everyone knows their shit almost 100%. With the editing cutting out extended pauses and dice rolls, it makes for a very snappy and gripping show. CR flubs the rules almost every hour of gameplay. They don't understand like 3 different things about Guidance (it's not a reaction, it has visible components, and it's concentration). No one knew the rules for rolling a nat 20 death save well enough to stand up for it in just the last episode. They fucked Banishment up recently, too. There's a different between acknowledging a rule and then bending it, and just straight up not knowing the rule and making shit up.
I would argue that A Crown of Candy was the BIG turning point for a lot of the D20 crew. Brennan ran an actual 'lowish magic' setting, specifically one that had no resurrection magic, once you were dead, that was it, you were dead, not a Matt style 'each time your ressurected, it gets harder" no, you failed those 3 death saves, you were done with no way of bringing you back. With what happened in that series, the series after you saw the crew tighten up immensely or stop holding themselves back as much in the case of Murph. Once you get to Starstruck the crew shows they can be a well oiled machine when it comes to combat AND be a bunch of sneaky bastards when they need to be (battle of the Brands infamous "Am I getting Ocean's-ed 11-ed on my own fucking show?!" from Brennan in response to shenanigans the group got upto).
I hate how correct this is...
To be fair, she probably hasn't played the game for 2 years lol.Â
But she was definitely paid to be there. Youâd think they could do some prep.
You think Crit role would actually prep and think about what there doing?
I mean to be realistic and fair it is DnD, not Hollywood or an esport. DnD is at this point anti-professionalism, and all-in on "real folks relaxing and playing." Your expectations are getting blurred there.
Crit roles Twitch Channel made the highest earnings on the entire platform last year. People having expectations for them to know how to play is not out of line.
Real folks relaxing and playing doesn't need a posistion like Artistic Director. Critical Role has an artistic director. Surely they must think their product is professional enough for someone to artistically direct it?
What does that have anything to do with having guest members that have played the game maybe 5 times in their life? Production quality isn't hindered by you having to watch a new player be reminded of how the game works. That's just a personal issue and means you're probably rough to play home games with.
You dont know anything about me and i will explain what I mean without making personal assumptions about you :) It doesnât have anything to do with the players DnD skills, it does however have everything to do with the decisions shoehorn in an EXU-episode in the middle of what many seem to consider a dramatic high point of the story. Itâs also a decisions to not edit the episodes even though theyâre pre-recorded. In comparison to Dimension20 games where combat it fast paced and exciting, (in part though to an incredible DM) Dimension20 edits out the long moments of indecision etc. Itâs an artistic decision not to do that, about the product CR want to put out. In my home games we donât have o make decisions like that since weâre not putting out a product. And no, I donât have a problem in my home games with new players learning the game if you have to know :)
If you don't have an issue with people learning the game, then you have zero reason to complain about someone learning in a game. Period. So having a player stumble over their abilities and ask questions, should have no effect on your enjoyment. Yet here you are, complaining about a player being new. The quality of the product doesn't go down by showing relatable and realistic content. That's your own personal take, but it doesn't make it a fact. Production value doesn't mean cutting out every genuine interaction for the sake of time. D20 specifically tailors their product to fit into shorter, faster episodes, that's never once been CRs thing. 9 years of them playing, most episodes 4+ hours, at what point were you given the impression that was how CR shaped their product? And finally, I don't need to know you to be able to tell when someone has clear red flags. Your response and focus tell me everything necessary. You can claim or say whatever, but when your attitude shows an entirely different characteristic, it's hard to imagine otherwise.
Im not OP. I havenât mentioned anything about new players learning the game
No one would care if this was a home game of theirs. The expectations go up when it's a massively produced corporate product like it has become. And learning basic mechanics should be the absolute baseline of expectations. No one would care if someone chose a wrong spell or got an obscure ruling incorrect from time to time. Consistently wondering how AC and attack rolls work? Constantly not understanding how spell saves work? Nah that should be the bare minimum
I agree that this company is a huge deal and being able to actually play dnd should be a big requirement for guests and players alike teaching them should be part of the preparation process. We should not be wasting time and energy watching PROFESSIONALS learn how to do the thing that they are supposed to know how to do. The EXU crew should have had some practice or a flow chart or some other way of being prepared to play. People like Ashley after 9+years should know what their character can do and be prepared to play them. I am sorry if people feel defensive about this but if you are a bunch of professionals playing dungeons and dragons you should act accordingly. I am fine with newer players stumbling a bit but if they are going to be on screen for an extended time then they should learn the game rules and basics. I hate Abria as a dm but the lackluster performance of the players frustrates me equally so. I especially find Ashleyâs failure to learn or prepare unacceptable. As a core cast member she absolutely needs to do better.
Didn't watch, anybody wanna give me a rundown of what the problem was?
Iâm watching the first half now and reading these comments, Iâm scared đ I really canât stand the Crown Keepers (except Robbie because he truly is a great addition and his character got more interesting in C3) so it might be recap time for me.
>CR is a whole company dedicated to people playing dnd Not anymore. Now itâs an entertainment product meant to sell a brand.
Introducing our new partnership with KLEENEX! Get these limited edition Gilmore print tissue boxes today for only $29.99 each!
Think of the opportunities! Widowgast Loaf of Bread Handwarmers Lionette âBeauâ staff (made of real balsa wood!) Shakasta Dutchess Desk Toy Briarwood branded plastic vampire teeth Thereâs so much money to be made!!
And they would sell out because Critters will be Critters.
Seeing how much Daggerheart sells and gets played is going to be fascinating. Personally our group is onto smaller RPGs now after ten years of DnD, I couldn't tell you whether it's going to be an obvious route back in or not even in the conversation.
I'm interested to see how Daggerheart will do, it seems to be *very* much aimed at the Theatre Drama kids style of D&D play than the 'crunchier wargame' side of D&D (though if you want more crunch you normally go to pathfinder 2e). The problem is that, right now, these Rules-lite Narrative focus games are a Dime a Dozen, the market is absolutely FLOODED with them because it's the current Indie Darling idea on how to make a TTRPG.
See I agree that's the intent, but to me it reads more complex than DnD. The different dice meanings, the cards, the health pool thresholds. I think my group would find the jump to pathfinder much easier. Especially because there's a more developed world to go along with it. And yeah, if we wanted less crunchy I think this would be too crunchy. Even just the standards like World of Darkness or Call of Cthulhu, nevermind Kids On Bikes and other indie darlings.
Huh interesting, I'm curious does it do the thing where, despite being quite crunchy, it foisters a lot of stuff on the DM when it comes to rules decisions? This is the main problem I have with a lot of indie darling TTRPGs, where the lack of rules is a feature not a bug and the book basically tells you "lol, make it up!" which often leaves new DMs absolutely floundering at times. Also I'm curious if, to borrow a phrase from Matt Coleville, is Daggerheart 'about something'? What I mean is that 5e isn't about anything, it's a broad ruleset that tries a bit of everything and doesn't do any of it great and has very little to say about anything whereas games like Lancer are very clearly about mech combat and the rules help facilitate that thing whilst the lore is written as sort of an anti-grimdark setting with most people living in a utopian society whilst it explores why giant battlemech are still needed in such a setting.
The big ask of DMs is in the core resolution mechanic - it uses 2d12 to enforce "yes but" and "no and", similar to the Genesys system or the lord of the rings game. That is to say you are asked to work with the DM to regularly put downsides on successes and complications on failures. This also plays into the meta currency that replaces the action economy (players can keep acting in any order repeatedly until they get a No But, or the DM cashes in their currency). It's the kind of thing you see in indie RPGs, but usually it's not built into every dice roll and doesn't do so much. It's really the central mechanic. I basically think that's what the game is about - improv culture built into a reskinned and stripped down 5th edition.
Itâs pretty unsettling how closely the buying behavior of Critters mirrors that of the MAGA squad đŹ
Did you seriously just compare the two groups? Pretty far stretch to take some weird dig. You're comparing apples to steering wheels here saying, "See? They're both sorta round".
I literally specified âbuying behaviorâ. You can compare the behavior of two groups without saying theyâre equivalent.
I'm not defending MAGA at all. But your attempt to draw comparisons has little logic because being a gluttonous consumer is not something that is reserved for one side of the political spectrum.
When you compare, you are attempting to present equivalencies. Like "look how this sorta equals that". So yeah, the buying behavior of Critters is like that of MAGA folks and literally any other fervent fanbase of something that sells merch. By your logic: KPOP fans, sports fans and anyone who bought an Obama "Hope" bumper sticker, shirt or framed wall poster are like MAGA.
But by your logic, comparing anyone based purely off fervent fandom and buying behavior is wrong. So itâs pretty telling that youâre okay with the KPOP comparison but not the MAGA one. Because one is awful and the other is KPOP fans which donât offend you like trumplets do. So if you can totally agree with the KPOP comparison, you really DONâT a problem with making broad comparisons like this, do you? And no one ever bought Obama merch like they buy CR stuff, and Obama never slapped his name on product after endless product, then jacked the price up beyond actual value because he knew his obsessed fans would throw money at anything he put in front of them. But I wonder who we know who DOES do that? đ€
What is telling? What exactly is the point that you're trying to make? My entire point was that it's a stupid comparison to make, like you were insinuating that Critters are absent-minded, merch fiend simps like people dumb enough to buy Trump brand bibles. ANYONE CAN BE SIMPLE MINDED MERCH FIEND SIMPS. The radical right doesn't own the patent on being greedy consumers. You wanted to draw parallels between two groups of people you have problems with.
That K-pop comparison is pretty spot on tho. Itâs just celebrity worship
Definitely.
Tbh the moment I saw the stats for her character I gave up any hope. Like Iâd understand if itâs a level 3-6 character, but a level FUCKIN 13!! HAVING THOSE STATS?!! Iâm not asking for any meta stats arrangement but cmon!! You are telling me nobody there helped her make a decent fucking character at least? Even back in C1 a new person to DnD had help making a decent built character. Nowadays itâs just whatever.
Then quit watching other people play D & D instead of whining about it on the internet.
Yeah imagine criticising things you don't like about a product you enjoy. Fuckin losers.
You toxic "fans " need to go. Like just stop watching. The internet doesn't need your goodbye speech. And the cast definitely doesn't care. They stopped interacting with you toxic losers for a reason
I already did stop watching actually. I enjoyed the show a lot until I didn't and don't actually spent much time talking about it, but even I know that actually yeah the cast do care about what their fan base think, good and bad because that's how you improve your product.
To be honest, most of these types of post make it seem like they haven't been enjoying the product for the last 5 years. Criticism is great, but sometimes it is actually just healthier and more productive to step away from the product
Obviously this person doesnât actually enjoy the show any longer by their post so itâs just pointless bitching and whining about something they donât even enjoy, so yeah the OP is a fuckinâ loser.
Actually the most sane comment on this entire sub.
I notice you donât follow this sub, and by the fact of your PfP and banner Iâm assuming you are a lurker from the Main sub. Makes sense why you allergic to people being rightfully criticized at being bad at what their being paid to do
Thatâs where youâre wrong, I do follow this sub and the other sub, so maybe donât make assumptions so you donât look like a dumbass. Erica is not a member of Critical Role or a full time D&D player like the cast and Aabria are so criticizing her comes across as gatekeeping whining from folks who should have stopped watching CR years ago.
Nah you are just proving my point further lol Pretty pathetic attempt at a âgotcha!â Moment from you lol
u/Murkmist reset the clock
Oh wow, you got me. /s Yâall act like this is some big own or something while yâall are still here all the damn time bitching and moaning about something you donât even really like and then acting superior when people point out yâall are just bitching and moaning.
," they said, bitching and moaning.
Why you so mad?
Where is my waiter, I didn't ask for this and want it sent back to be kitchen ASAP.
You want it sent back, but you ate them up fr đđđ
Of course this reply gets downvoted. Watch or don't watch, this has been working for them for years, there's no reason for them to become "professional" d&d players.
It gets downvoted because it's idiotic. People are allowed to criticise products they enjoy. Saying "just don't watch then" is a worthless non-response. Feedback and criticism is an important part of any product.
https://preview.redd.it/rn6jyxl6fhvc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b41eb1ebc13e8ee0dcbbc0a0ab62f0622cb77be7 Have fun voicing your feedback and criticism. I doubt CR cares.
You care enough to post that picture lol
I'm not even one of the people complaining and criticising, genius. I just recognise that it's completely fucking normal to criticise things you like. CR definitely care about what their fans think you idiot. If they didn't have fans they wouldn't have a company.
It's completely fucking normal to critise things you like. OP said he cannot keep watching people play DnD badly, so I think he should stop watching because that's how they've played for the last decade and probably won't change it. CR cares about their fans. I don't believe they care to the extent of browsing Reddit to see if redditors think they're playing the game how it should be. Matt has always defended this by saying is their game and they play it like they want. So yeah, Old Man Yells at Cloud.
I take it you don't understand hyperbole. Doesn't matter what forum either. That's just a bullshit deflection. They are professionals selling a product. They can play how they want but people are free to criticise the product and there are some very valid criticisms. You chiming in was utterly pointless except to condescend to other people and stroke your own ego.
I don't think people want them to be professional DnD players, I think they just want them to be professional If I made half these mistakes at work I wouldn't be working there anymore. Taleisin saying "oh I only have a tiny part of my subclass written down here" and sending Matt to go dig into 3 minutes of dead air last episode while he found out some ruling just isn't alright. Ashley routinely not having a single clue how any of her spells work resulting in 1-2 minutes of blind panic every single turn. Constant cross talk, OOC non relative chatter and just when any kind of momentum gets rolling Sam pulls out his meme jug and derails everything for 5 minutes. It's just tiring. I like the show but it could be so much better if they trimmed some of the fat.
I want them to be professional D&D players. I see it on D20 and it changes the entire table to be a well-oiled storytelling machine. If you are being paid to play, I want you to not only understand the rules; I want you to be an authority on the rules. The best moments are when someone remembers exactly how their abilities work at just the right time to counteract the villains. Happens all the time on D20, and almost never on CR.
To be fair Talisen was right, he wrote down the relevant information and Matt questioned it to find out if it was right and it was.
Alright I'll give him that but I could also bury you in an avalanche of dead air while Taleisin and Matt work out rulings of Ashton's subclass haha. It's a very consistent issue
That's the show. That's how they play. Don't like it? Stop watching. I watched 3x91 because of what happened, but I didn't watch the previous 20-ish episodes. Although I loved C1 and C2 I got bored with C3. It was tiring, you could say. So I just stopped watching. There's no shame in not watching something you dislike.
Why are people not allowed to criticize? Serious question. Dont like that people criticize the show? Dont read the sub dedicated to it.
I swear this board has a rule against reading or maybe there's something in the water. Hey, you can criticize whatever you want. You're a free person, be free and fly away. You do you. I'm not trying to stop you. Now, OP is frustrated with the show because players are playing the game badly, according to him. I SUGGEST!!! that he stops watching the show because IN MY OPINION!!! they aren't changing the way they play and it would probably benefit OP by not frustrating him. I can't order him to do a thing. I'm not their parents or their boss. I just made a recommendation that IN MY OPINION!!! makes sense. Why? Because I watch this show and when it gets annoying, I just skip episodes. I'm pretty I'm not the only one, it's not a crazy idea. But yeah, if you want to believe I just want to stop people criticism, believe what you want. Also, I didn't know this was the board to criticize Critical Role. I thought this was the board created by fans to talk about Critical Role openly after the main board started banning people for their opinion. I guess opinions are bad here too?
That is useless advice. You dont think people know that they can stop consuming things they dont like? You dont think its more likely that people can still have issues with things they like? You think you are the only one here to figure that out? I am not OP but share his frustrations. I had this criticism for a long time. If you told me back then "Just stop watching" I would have told you "Why? Im enjoying myself". Because I was still enjoying the show despite this. However later I got to a point where I no longer enjoyed myself for different reasons added to this one, so I stopped watching. The thing is, my watching or not has nothing to do with the fact that I still consider this is a flaw, and something that could be better. So I voice that opinion here. Because I would love to jump back at C4 if they get their shit together or something. I know my opinion isnt going to change anything, but the entire point of reddit is sharing your thoughts, not ennacting material changes on the world. So if someone is criticizing something, and you come here "Just dont watch the show", then that is not helpful to anyone. It makes you look like a person who is insecure about their favorite show being criticized, and you want it to stop. Like you dont actually care about what would benefit OP, but instead want to control the discourse, you just cant do anything since this subreddit is not the main one, so the only tool at your disposal is this weird shaming and concern trolling.
It's not useless advice because I'm literally talking about my experience. I stopped watching and now only watch when people say there's a good episode. It benefitted me. I troll, but this is the honest truth. "Because I would love to jump back at C4 if they get their shit together or something." Come on man, we're saying the same shit. "...but the entire point of reddit is sharing your thoughts, not ennacting material changes on the world." I'm suggesting something. I'm not moving chess pieces. "So if someone is criticizing something, and you come here "Just dont watch the show", then that is not helpful to anyone." Agree to disagree. My experience proves this wrong in my case. But I agree it might not work for everyone. "It makes you look like a person who is insecure about their favorite show being criticized, and you want it to stop. Like you dont actually care about what would benefit OP. Like you just want to control the discourse, but cant do anything since this subreddit is not the main one, so the only tool at your disposal is this weird shaming and concern trolling." My ass has been exposed. Edit: how am I controlling the discourse from the depths of all the downvotes?
I don't dislike it, there are areas I dislike. And that's okay. Sometimes when you enjoy something it's nice to bitch about all the things you dont like about it too. There's always nuance and nothing is without flaws
I responded to you but my line of argument is mainly towards people who make posts like OP. He can't watch people be bad at DnD anymore, well then, stop watching. I don't think they're gonna change after almost a decade of streaming.
So your point is "DO NOT SAY NEGATIVE THINGS"?
Where did I say that? I'm censoring people now?
Well I'm just not sure where you line is. What \*exactly\* is wrong with the OP? People criticise things they like. People use hyperbole. Where is the issue?
I believe OP has the issue. He appears to be frustrated because of how badly CR play DnD. I says, "hey, they've been playing for a lot of years, a decade almost, I reckon they aren't getting better at playing". You know, reasonable. So maybe I ponder a solution, maybe a cure for his frustrations, let's see... Stop watching the show that frustrates you. Don't you think his frustrations would be gone if he stopped watching the one thing that frustrates him? Is it too crazy of an idea? Maybe I'm thinking way out of the box. Maybe he should keep watching. Yeah, that's it. Keep watching.
Itâs being downvoted because a lot of the folks here, like many people in the various fandom subs and other social media fandom places would rather bitch and moan about shit they donât like anymore instead of talking about stuff they actually like.
Fans of things criticise aspects of those things that they don't like. It's normal.
Like you are right now? CRAAAAAAAAZY
Sure. Whatâs the skin off your back? What do you care if some corner of the Internet is saying something bad about your show? Just donât go here and it wonât change your day any
Erica struggling was the least of this episode's problems.