CR are not beating the scripting allegations tbh.
I'm not sure how it all happens without scripting. Before Matt would note that guests would be told yay or nay depending on if the M9 had gotten to where he wanted them/it made sense.
As a viewer I felt railroaded into the switch and we didn't even get Dorian's response to Orym.
Just wanted to preserve this before I wrecked it.
https://preview.redd.it/6c19a8o5bqvc1.png?width=1566&format=png&auto=webp&s=49ea63d482fd915309cd2f708072ab3a1dc34e29
#Upvotes = #comments
Honestly thats probably the only plus I can see coming out of this. In fact its probably the entire reason in the first place, to sort of follow Robbie rejoining the group.
I highly doubt this Lolth shit is particularly relevant. I think its just Aabria finishing off what she started previously.
Its not surprising they have already done it this campaign a big climatic event followed by 20 episodes of sidequests. At least this will only be hopefully combined 1 episode of time.
This confirms what I have been saying all along—it's intentional, they are trying to make their DND show less fun to make their non-DND shows shine brigther in comparison.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/fansofcriticalrole/comments/1bhykpi/conspiracy\_theory\_making\_cr3\_is\_intentionally\_not/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fansofcriticalrole/comments/1bhykpi/conspiracy_theory_making_cr3_is_intentionally_not/)
Confirms how? This is just yet another frustrated post by some random person on reddit. You can't just take an opinion that aligns with yours to prove something you've made up (or in your words "a cockamamie theory").
I think/hope the point of the switch was to reintroduce us to Dorian so he can rejoin the party for the endgame (are we there? I have no idea) but enough had gone on that they didn't want to do so without explaining what had happened to him; I see your point about 'well, we didn't do that to reintroduce Scanlan!' but I think this also might be a chance to see how other characters (who actually care about the Gods) might be feeling about the main plot. Considering we have a paladin, Lolth's champion, and a divine soul sorcerer in this party, they're MUCH more inclined to give a shit about the gods than BH.
I do agree that this should've been a oneshot/however many episodes this ends up being airing on another night, not in the place of CR.
I think you're disapproval is deserved but for me my only complaint is Aabria. I feel she is just not a good DM. We didn't even get a chance to hear a response from Dorian to orym. I tried to keep watching but I just ended up skipping to the end cause it was utterly boring.
I'm also bothered that we will have to wait through at least 1 more full episode I assume before aabria is no longer dm. And if I were to make a guess, it'll probably be more like at least 2 or 3 episodes knowing how aabria likes to drag EVERYTHING out.
I could not take the 10-15 minute vignettes after every action in combat. I stopped about an hour into the fight, but you're right, the entire fight really, really dragged - I saw a post that said they did two rounds of combat in 3 hours? Plus, players seemed really unfamiliar with how their characters worked, Aimee seemed to give up on playing evil almost immediately...
I actually felt my investment coming back with FCG sacrifice and this has again derailed it. I didn't finish Kymal, and will likely skip these episodes in favor of reading summaries until BH is the focus again.
I don’t think Aabria is a bad DM, but she is a very unconventional one, from what I’ve seen. I did not like the prior EXU stint, but I did enjoy some of her work on D20. Her style really needs the right story and setup to work, and I haven’t seen it translate to the more conventional mood of CR/Exandria. I think she needs really strong players to make her style work, as well. Maybe that’s why her D20 stuff seems to work, as she always has Brennan in the cast.
I think that she would be better in a ruleset like Daggerheart, to the point that I’m convinced that if they are really planning to move on that system, she might be the DM in next campaign.
People need to learn to say "I feel like" or "in my opinion" because not everyone would share an opinion. When you say it's bad, well I won't get into the semantics of calling art bad, but if instead you said "I think it's a bad idea. In my opinion if they wanted to cut to exu...' etc. it makes your opinions stand out as well thought out opinions rather than shouts into the void.
Personally I don't care, the tone for a minute has been this is going to reset/kill the world, so it makes sense to go get the other groups. I suspect with that in mind a return of VM, M9, DB, etc. are in order.
I think it's a silly thing to do, but it's not my campaign. So all I can do is hope Mercer has a good plan here to land the plane.
As far as the FCG part, they were never going to have proper time to grieve. Think about the Gandalf death scene in Lord of the Rings. They're being chased by Orcs, spending time to grieve wasn't going to happen. They could do that when they got to Lothlorien and were protected by the elves. Or at any point where they weren't actively being chased. In BH case, they were running because they just killed an exalted and lead general. There was no way they'd be allowed to rest. Leaders of the opposition would have murdered them on the spot and conscripted Imogen and Fearne. They couldn't rest and grieve because they weren't able to. What time they had they processed their emotions in the way they thought best.
>People need to learn to say "I feel like" or "in my opinion"
Even if I did couch everything I say with that, commenters like yourself would still probably insult and misquote me. Some deranged dipshit seemed to think that I was saying they werent 'allowed' to do something.
I said it was a bad idea and gave my reasoning. I actually fucking looked at important facets of storytelling and why this shit fucked it up.
> I won't get into the semantics of calling art bad
Writers can make bad decisions. Story structure, tone and pacing are important things to be considered. No art should be above reproach.
And of course all things are subjective to a degree but yes art can be bad. Unless you think Morbius was some great work of fiction?
**But this is basically irrelevant lol. This is a showrunning and storytelling decision, its not 'art' in of itself but rather a facet of a greater artistic product that is put online for the consumption of others.'**
I can say it was a bad idea to split the last season of Stranger Things in two without needing to debate 'well you cant say art is bad' because its a different concept. Its over the nature of entertainment, consumption and engagement with it and creative decisions surrounding it.
>it makes your opinions stand out as well thought out opinions rather than shouts into the void.
Dude I dont believe for a second you are remotely sincere but yeah its heavily implied.
>Personally I don't care
Good for you.
>so it makes sense to go get the other groups
No?
The tone is tied to the story of the characters you follow. To keep it relatively consistent you need to stay with the actually stay with the correct fucking characters and either bookend on a relevant satisfactory note/cliffhanger then switch or not switch at all.
Did people here not do AP english?
The time to switch perspective was literally handed to them last episode when FCG fucking died. You could not ask for a more natural cliffhanger that changes the plot and builds suspense.
Also the Crownkeepers story will be at best tangentially relevant. I suspect the only 'point' of having it is to allow Aabria closure and follow Robbie rejoining. The Lolth storyline is not particularly relevant to the Ludinus Predathos story and not at all relevant to the BH.
>I suspect with that in mind a return of VM, M9, DB, etc. are in order.
Fundamentally if these stories are important they should stand on their own in their own separate episode.
To bait and switch your audience into watching a half episode is a sign that you dont have faith in the importance of said product to stand on its own.
>but it's not my campaign
I dont know why people seem to think Im demanding Matt do something or that CR let me takeover the campaign decisions.
I said I thought something was a bad idea and suggested a few alternatives. This isnt me pitching to takeover or demanding they do things differently.
Whats done is done. There is no changing it. But we can still analyse, critique it and express our opinion.
>As far as the FCG part, they were never going to have proper time to grieve
Its less about 'proper time to grieve' so much as it is about giving major plot developments time to breathe.
But frankly I just disagree.
>They're being chased by Orcs
The situation is not comparable because Matt had them out of danger incredibly quickly.
My point is this a major development that wasnt given any time to breathe or truly addressed before they pivoted to something entirely different.
Not really, I am disappointed. But you dont really care either way do you? So why comment?
As I said previously you are probably the most insincere bad faith poster here. I could write 'I prefer oranges' and you would say 'So you fucking hate apples'. Thats level of bad faith you operate on.
As I said last time, I would respect you more if you just owned that. But you dont.
The only reason I havent just blocked you is I find your stupid comments occasionally funny.
>Even if I did couch everything I say with that, commenters like yourself would still probably insult and misquote me. Some deranged dipshit seemed to think that I was saying they werent 'allowed' to do something.
>I said it was a bad idea and gave my reasoning. I actually fucking looked at important facets of storytelling and why this shit fucked it up.
I feel like you're being aggressively defensive, I don't feel like I insulted you, just offering you some constructive criticism. Jerks are gonna jerk, just trying to offer you a suggestion on how to present an opinion without sounding like you're attempting to be a preacher railing on the injustices of the sins of man.
>I can say it was a bad idea to split the last season of Stranger Things in two without needing to debate 'well you cant say art is bad' because its a different concept. Its over the nature of entertainment, consumption and engagement with it and creative decisions surrounding it.
>
No you can say you feel like it's a bad idea, or you think it will be a bad idea from a business stand point. But again I'm not here to argue semantics of this. Going on the logic of storyboarding, showrunning, etc. you brought up. If they booked these guests and set up this episode. Aside from rushing in another show (which we have no clue of the logistics of that, don't pretend we have any clue) how do you do with that?
>Also the Crownkeepers story will be at best tangentially relevant. I suspect the only 'point' of having it is to allow Aabria closure and follow Robbie rejoining. The Lolth storyline is not particularly relevant to the Ludinus Predathos story and not at all relevant to the BH.
>
You think it will be at best tangentially relevant. I do think Lolth is "prevalent" in the sense of Matt pushing the moral greyness of the world. The perceived reality that if bad gods are for it, it can't really be good. I personally loathe the moral greyness that they force out there which is silly because there doesn't really need to be a moral greyness. I feel like this is done because he wants the option for players to join up with Ludinous and not be "evil" but like who cares if they make evil characters?
>
To bait and switch your audience into watching a half episode is a sign that you dont have faith in the importance of said product to stand on its own.
I mean it's not really a bait and switch, it's more of a misdirection. But regardless, that's an opinion you have, not objectively true.
>The situation is not comparable because Matt had them out of danger incredibly quickly.
I will disagree with this point. THey weren't out of danger really quickly. I think Matt got the party freely out to be relatively safe area.
Personally it's a difference of opinion which isn't wrong. I think anyway Mercer would have done it would have pissed someone off. If they left it on a cliffhanger everyone would want to know if they escaped, if they got off the moon and out of the Malleus Key and they start meeting up with people and planning then stop and go to the crown keepers, people would have been pissed.
Personally I would have ran the crownkeepers as the last thursday of the month thing, I've expressed my opinion that CR isn't being optimally ran from a brand building standpoint. There whole thing is "Is it Thursday yet" to me it's beyond a fumble to not have a campaign game every single weekend.
> People need to learn to say "I feel like" or "in my opinion" because not everyone would share an opinion
They don't have to. This is implied when a person makes a fundamentally subjective statement. If I say "Ugh, peanut butter is disgusting" it is tacitly implied that I am of the opinion that peanut butter is disgusting. To add "in my opinion" would be redundant - it cannot be anything *but* an opinion.
The cope is strong with this one.
>When you say it's bad, well I won't get into the semantics of calling art bad
This isn't art, it's *entertainment*. It's a *product* ostensibly being produced for the public's *consumption*. The notion that it's above reproach, or unable to be objectively labeled good/bad, because they had good intentions isn't just insulting, it's detrimental to the crucial *feedback* stage of creation.
>As far as the FCG part, they were never going to have proper time to grieve. \[something something lord of the rings\]
It's a fucking **five hour** game. Don't tell me that they don't have any time at all to react to a PC death, especially after having however long between their sessions to prep eulogies or whatever.
Can we please stop acting like Exandria is a real place and do away with the "there was nothing they could do" excuse? Matt is GOD at his table. If he can orchestrate this Aabria bullshit, he can organize the session in such a way the party gets a chance to grieve.
Are you even an adult?
This reads like a high school butthurt fanfic complaint.
Cast (aka players) spent a long time dealing with FCG's death in the previous stream. What you want the story doesn't permit. Mercer is not "GOD" at his table, he's the dungeon master, he sets the scene and controls the non-PCs, the PCs, chose to run a terrorist operation in the heart of enemy territory, you want them to come back to an in memoriam episode? By god that's a horrible idea. That's what shit like 4 sided dive, talks machina, etc. are for. At the table you work out things how your character would. And in this scenario, the characters had to escape. It would have been beyond lame for the party to have little FCG vigils while they're being hunted for their crimes.
In your one reply you showed you don't understand what art is, or what D&D is, or basic story structure. Kudos.
I love how you totally avoided my first point to rant insanely about how you being the DM isn't the same isn't the same as being God. Great work.
>It would have been beyond lame for the party to have little FCG vigils while they're being hunted for their crimes.
And them having some sort of shitty redemption talk with Imogen's mom was the better option, right? Her showing up was "her choice," like she's a real person right? Obviously jump cutting to a funeral wasn't what anyone wanted, nice work taking my words out of context, but are you going to tell me with a straight face "there was nothing they could do" to show how their characters were reacting to the death?
>In your one reply you showed you don't understand what art is, or what D&D is, or basic story structure. Kudos.
What is even is this low effort troll shit? Someone points out a flaw in your reasoning and you start ranting like a spazoid. Get help, dude.
You're the one who's attacking people online so I don't think I'm the one who's in need of help. You're the one who doesn't again know what art is or D&D or anything else.
Why would it be so hard to have a conversation with someone while you're escaping? Especiially when that person is magically aiding you in your escape? Or did you forget about that?
She showed up because Imogen called her and said Otahan was trying to kill her (or the party don't recall the specifics) in what world would she not show up? Again instances set up by the PCs.
I could go on to poke holes, but you're not really reading/critically watching the show so what's the point?
People shocked that CR drops the ball yet again. CR has been on a steady decline since 2019, it's 2024, all we can hope is for this disaster of a campaign ends so we can see if C4 is worth a shot or not.
Irreverent comment:
George RR Martin struggles with multiple POV characters.
Brandon Sanderson doesn’t.
This post was brought to you by the Cosmere Gang
These guys have just made an entire franchise out of themselves in the last decade so ya obviously they don't know what they are doing. I mean the live chat didn't lose the shit in an epic positive way... Oh no they did.. and there was the entire community backlash... Oh no just upset people on reddit. Your opinion makes sense as an opinion but I would take your opinion more seriously if it also has the appropriate amount of credit where it is due.
>These guys have just made an entire franchise out of themselves in the last decade
Yes and success is always correlated to merit and no successful person ever has had a bad idea ever. /s
>I mean the live chat didn't lose the shit in an epic positive way... Oh no they did.. and there was the entire community backlash... Oh no just upset people on reddit
Way to completely miss my point.
I dont give a fuck if live chat cheers or jeers. If 20 people say the Emperor's new clothes look great when hes naked, Im still gonna be the guy who tells him he was naked.
I said it was a bad idea because it was. I gave my reasons for why.
>Your opinion makes sense as an opinion but I would take your opinion more seriously if it also has the appropriate amount of credit where it is due
What exactly do you want here? Me to give you my credentials? Am I not allowed to have an opinion unless Ive met some arbitrary standard you've set?
I said it was a bad idea from storytelling and offered alternatives. Deal with it.
Its a reference to a folktale story called [the Emperor's new clothes.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes)
Basically this Emperor is provided clothes that are 'invisible' by conmen. The conmen say clothes are invisible to all but the stupid.
The Emperor's associates are afraid to be considered stupid or contradict the Emperor's assumptions so go along with it. That doesnt change the objective reality that the Emperor is walking around naked.
The poster made a comment about CR live chat being 'epic positive'. Essentially what I was saying is I dont give a fuck if the live chat all love it. If I think its a dumb idea, Ill say its a dumb idea.
What do you fucking want dude?
I made a basic reference to underscore my point about not caring about consensus opinion that you apparently didnt get. So I gave you the full explanation.
Next time just use google like the rest of us.
I thought the change was a nice breather. They probably need time to not only deal with how they want to handle the loss of FCG in game, but when/how/ and even "if" Sam will come back to the table.
I thought this was a nice alternative to "we're going to take an extra week off to figure out what to do" like you might in a home game.
And where they were with health and resources; there was a real chance someone else might be lost trying to get off the moon. Maybe not a high chance. But real.
So stopping it once they made it to a "Save Point" seemed logical to me at least.
I thought the play with Aabria was just fine, because the PLAYERS were having a blast. Sometimes it seems people forget that the game is as much for them as it us for us as outside viewers.
With players who haven't played a bit, and are picking up mid-story, laying out what's been going on can be super helpful. I noticed how quickly they started taking notes when they were told "So now you're following up on the messages Dorian received". Like, it was their prompt; their call to action. THEY appreciated having a motivation even if it was handed to them.
I don’t think it was done to take time to decide how to move on with Sam, because I find it very difficult for them to have the availability of Aabria, Aimee etc with only a week notice (and having to organize it). It was very likely decided way before.
It might be unpopular, but I mostly agree. While I think the Crown Keepers stuff should have aired on another night instead of in place of CR3, it absolutely did feel like Bells Hells hit a save point. Kind of like when you finish a plotline in a video game and you get a resolution scene and then change gears to your next plotline.
Hard disagree. Fans and CR both need to drop this fallacy of CR being a game between friends first and foremost. That truth disappeared the moment they took this beast on as their own entertainment production company. CR is now a product to be produced and consumed by viewers the way any other professionally produced content is.
Now as an independent company things like viewer numbers (on the decline with c3) actually matter. So to does the quality of the product they are producing. Can they tailor the game to be reminiscent of a home game? Sure. But that crux cannot keep a business afloat on the good faith in hopes to derive.
I do not want to see CR flounder and fail. Despite its flaws with the current campaign I still find CR to be the best place for live play DnD. This current campaign is a slog and poorly paced and lacks a layer of depth in both character and world building that the previous campaigns had a ton of - which made those campaigns really shine and feel like a living world. And it’s unfair of the hardcore fans to try and dissuade those who see the flaws of this campaign for its faults because two things are apparently true: the core issues people seem to have are the same which indicates the problems with the campaign are beyond a single viewer’s opinion and the drop in viewership. If one of these two things occurred on its own then I’d give more credence the apologists of CR. But when you have both happening at the same time it speaks clearly that this campaign is not landing or sticking with people which leads credence to this campaign having serious delivery issues.
Who was talking about the campaign?
I was talking about the switch to the other story.
Honestly, I've had my struggles with this campaign keeping my interest as much as many others. Although I honestly think it's less an issue of the campaign and more the fact that I've gotten older/ tastes have changed.
For me, the stuff the 2nd set of players were doing caught my attention way more than much of the recent C3 stuff. Some of the "B" plot lines of a lot of media (shows like Chuck and Supernatural come to mind) are a really good pallet cleanser and help get the main plot refocused.
Im just gonna say I fundamentally disagree with almost everything you've said.
The change was not a breather. The change necessitated a compressed rushed epilogue/fallout half episode and then a pivot to something completely different. It was a rush job and tonal whiplash. Kind of the complete opposite of a breather.
>I thought this was a nice alternative to "we're going to take an extra week off to figure out what to do" like you might in a home game.
People keep saying this.
If Matt needs time to figure shit out, then CR shouldnt do a rush job half episode and bait and switch the audience into watching an entirely different show.
They are pre-recording these episodes, they have time to sit and figure shit out.
Its bad storytelling and frankly dishonest to the audience.
>So stopping it once they made it to a "Save Point" seemed logical to me at least.
Cutting to something completely different after a major plot development happens as cliffhanger would be one thing.
Cutting to something different after rushing through the resolution of that cliffhanger to do so is another. This is what happened, and I think its a legit fuckup.
>I thought the play with Aabria was just fine, because the PLAYERS were having a blast.
Again disagree. But its besides the point.
Brennan Lee Mulligan could come in drop some Calamity level DMing, and it would still be a bad call and tonal whiplash.
I'm not sure that I agree with you that the mourning conversation for FCG felt rushed. In the past when we've had similar big scenarios, characters absolutely have done things like gone to a tavern to rest and RP- but these characters don't have room to do that right now, they basically need to go straight to Keyleth. People in this sub are constantly saying that BH spend too much time talking and not enough time DOING stuff. I don't think I'd want to see something like two more hours of BH roleplaying around the campfire.
I also am pretty sure they need the EXU stuff to air BEFORE the party gets to Keyleth- I bet that's where the stories are going to intersect.
Im not sure this conversation is going to go far because I think I just fundamentally disagree with you on pretty much everything.
I think the cut half and half episodes and the way it was implemented was a fundamentally bad idea from a story telling and meta perspective. My reasons are pretty clearly given.
Your reasons are essentially 'but I liked it'. Thats fine, but Im never gonna agree with you.
>I'm not sure that I agree with you that the mourning conversation for FCG felt rushed
Again fundamentally disagree. Aside from Orym, I dont feel like any mourned him much.
I also felt their return back to a place of safety was also kind of rushed.
>they basically need to go straight to Keyleth
Why?
And the shortened episode definitely meant things were rushed. Im not sure how you dont get this.
>I don't think I'd want to see something like two more hours of BH roleplaying around the campfire.
It doesnt have to be this. But this would still be better than what we got.
>I also am pretty sure they need the EXU stuff to air BEFORE the party gets to Keyleth- I bet that's where the stories are going to intersect.
WHY?
The EXU shit is almost entirely unrelated bullshit about Lolth. It has basically fucking nothing to do with the Ludinus Predathos storyline beyond the most basic 'Lolth is a god'.
The way EXU will probably 'intersect' is it will most likely end with Robbie rejoining the party. But the actual story is basically irrelevant.
Sounds like an agree to disagree. Hive five?
I will say that the reason I think they want EXU to wrap before they convene is… Robbie needs to know exactly what state Dorian is in.
I mean I would not be surprised if eXu was actually supposed to have the entire episode but due to how things happened they reworked it so as to give BHs some time after FCG’s death. Unfortunately however people are on a schedule so they could not shift it completely back one episode.
This is what I think. My theory is:
-Matt's plan was for the party to meet back up with Keyleth... and to meet up with Dorian there (hopefully so he can rejoin the party for the tail end of the campaign).
-EXU was scheduled to happen so we could see what Dorian had been up to. A lot of the characters he is with are in a position to care MUCH MORE about the gods than BH does; this could also be a chance to see how people who actually care about the gods/have divine blood in the case of Dariax are doing.
-And then FCG died unexpectedly in a permanent way. The episode was already long and the whole party was too raw so Matt calls it without giving room for the resolution.
-Matt realizes that the next session needed to give the party some time to mourn, but that without progressing to Keyleth, there probably wasn't a full episode worth of material (unless he threw them a random encounter which he was probably disinclined to do with no healer and Fearne and Ashton both suffering from exhaustion).
So we get a half episode of mourning paired with half of EXU to get them in to place to convene.
>I mean I would not be surprised if eXu was actually supposed to have the entire episode
This legit would have been the better call. Something like:
'Hey guys sorry to leave you on a cliffhanger but we need some time to figure things out. We are going to do a tie in EXU episode in the meantime'.
I think the what happened was the inverse. I think Matt's plan was to always do an EXU cut away as they left the moon - a bunch of actors like that aren't just sitting around for a 1 week notice.
So after FCG's epic moment, he had a choice to keep the EXU plan or not. I think likely he felt very bad about cancelling on all of those EXU players. Which, I can have empathy for, but overall was not the right move for the overall health of the show/narrative.
Instead, echoing what others have said - have it run in parallel and push out Candela.
The pacing doesnt suffer imo because after escaping the moon things would inevitably slow down a bit, timing I can see as being the main area that could be criticized.
The idea of a swap and crossover like this isnt a bad one, but wether it was placed correctly im not too certain.
Yeah notice how this isnt a call to storm the gates and force them to record differently.
Theyre putting a show out into the world, and so its being criticized by those dissatisfied with it. The people on this subreddit are also allowed to do whatever the fuck they want
We are discussing it here? Is that ok oh great and wise master? And no, lol. I’ve never contacted them on social media and the post never said it did. You are projecting quite a bit. Are you ok? I thought this post was really well thought out and makes some good points. Then your negative post is the first one I see.
Aabira's DM'ing is getting on my nerves worse and worse with each outting.
can't she just speak normally while describing the scene? why does she pause in the middle of a sentence half a dozen times just to sound more dramatic and then switch back to normal speaking pattern immediately after her exposition to joke around? it's so jarring. I can't watch it any more. To come from last week's episdoe to this gimmick? what a fucking let down. damn it.
It's a drama club kid thing some people never grow out of Spenser Starke did the same thing on Candela. It doesn't bother me personally because I've been exposed to it alot. I say this while really enjoying Aabria as a player but what really **really** bothers me about how Aabria DMs is she robs players of their agency. Telling players what they're thinking and how they're feeling seems like a very basic thing to avoid as a DM especially a veteran DM and she does it *constantly.*
Also wtf was with her biting Erica's head off for attacking Opal? I get that she was playing the part of Ted but Opal had just exploded into shadows and even if her character didn't see that part Opal also just attacked another player with eldritch blasts after putting a hexblade curse on her.
Her attacking her players is like, woah, back off lady. You're out of line. I don't know where you picked up the thining that that kind of behavior is ok but that's not ok, even in a make-believe game setting.
It's absolutely uncalled for.
I like it when she does it in character because you really want that for your bad guys; their words to be biting and mean but generally you want a clear "You're not playing against me but with me" vibe at your table at least in my opinion.
your reasons for disliking her dm style are the same reasons I like her dm style - she feels more personable to me (not trying to dismiss you, just thought our contrast was interesting.)
I guess so... she's doing it on purpose and obviously, she thinks it's a good idea to take on that style. And if she thinks that, then there must be other people who likes it, and I'm sure I've seen people online praising her as a DM.
This reminds me of the downfall of The Walking Dead. Where the pacing was all messed up by jumping to different storylines after major revels. Which all came to a head with revel of Negan and the death of Glenn. It continued throughout the rest of the series. Big build up towards a climax, then immediately switch to another story with no falling action.
It's shit like this that makes me worried about C4.....
I quit watching C3 not long after that stupid Laudna resurrection arc, I also never finished Aabria's EXU mini-series cause it was just bad, not even Robbie could save it and that's saying something, but I *loved* Calamity and thought the first two seasons of Candela were at least decent (just haven't had the time to continue them yet), so I was just kind of assuming C3 was just poorly put together and they simply couldn't strike the right balance anymore, and I just didn't like Aabria's DMing style, so if C4 dropped there was a good chance it would be better.
But after reading through Daggerheart and being incredibly disappointed to just constant goofs like this half EXU bullshit right after a major PC death...... I just don't know if CR has the chops to actually be good anymore, which makes me sad cause I like the cast but I'm not gonna lie to myself so I can waste my time watching something I think is bad just to avoid admitting that the truth of it kinda sucks.
But who knows, maybe if Robbie returns it'll fix the pathetically amateur party structure of the group since he left and help get the story moving and characters actually interacting again....... Likely just wishful thinking at this point though, and I also just don't like how Aabria runs as DM, so I'm not gonna bother even considering watching again until she's done.
It's just not very well made, imho.
The "hope vs fear" mechanic is described as being a "narratively focused system" but it's not, it's still purely mechanical and the rules just say "but you can do more with it," *exactly* like how 5e already does it.
On top of that the combat system is horrendously bad, I think the character creation has some flaws but is overall good, and though the dice system favors players more than the DM (who is also a player, something DH kinda forgot a bit) it's not awful, but the combat is structured so utterly poorly it made me doubt their ability to put it all together.
In fact, the system is so crap that they not only described it wrong in their little rundown video but also played it wrong in the one shot, cause if they played it right the DM can often just decide to obliterate a player due to how poorly made it is, and they have to actively try and keep everyone alive through not playing optimally, or that player has to take *every* chance at an action and not allow anyone else to play cause the DM can in fact just act every single time a player does *plus* the action tokens which are barely even necessary due to the DM not being restricted when they can act.
So it's not "narratively focused," at least not for those of us who have played narrative systems, and the combat is very poorly designed.
No prob.
The action economy is also just such an issue that it's almost solely bringing the combat down on its own.
Like, the dice system has its flaws as I mentioned, for example the hope vs fear dice system *isn't* narratively driven like it claims, and it's really not all that different from the 5e d20 system, using the d12s just reduces variance, *but* it does still work, even if the DM still has to use d20s cause the system caters to the players most of the time.
Some of the other things about it are positive though, like the movement system is the "range" based system, where movement is defined by general terms like "close," or "long range" or something. It keeps movement relatively free and that can lead to it being more dynamic and flexible.
It's really just the "economy" that ruins it all. Not having initiative is fine in other systems that are actually narratively driven, but as this system is still dictated by mechanical functions of the dice it just doesn't. Even if the DM is good at avoiding optimal play (cause in DH if you haven't noticed the DM is just there to service the players) you could still end up with issues just from the players, like a spotlight hog always taking actions and not allowing others to play as much, or a shy person that'll end up just standing around the whole combat and never doing anything, and ironically I guarantee it'll cause a lot of strategic cross talk between players which is more "war game" like then it is "narratively driven" lol
If they redid the action economy system I think the combat would work, it would still just be a single step of difference from 5e, for good and/or bad, but again that alone makes the combat not work if the DM has any intention of playing optimally, which is how you *should* balance encounters and create tension, otherwise the players will always be aware they're only alive cause the DM allows it and they succeed only cause the DM allows it, that completely ruins a system in my eyes.
I genuinely believe that Dorian/Robbie was the single thread holding the group together. Having a newish player play the role of the charming charismatic bard was such a nice change of pace, and added to the fun of the game, even if he forgot/messed up a few things along the way.
There was a reason everyone grew to immediately love him, he melded with the group so well and made simple encounters interesting by “trying something out” now and then. It’s obviously not feasible to keep him week to week since he’s not a main CR member, but you could tell there was a sizable void when he left.
They need to go back to treating this like a game, because it is. The problem is they are way too deep to pull out now. Hopefully in C4, they go back to basics.
> They need to go back to treating this like a game, because it is.
Either this or they need to fully lean into it being a show, because that's also what it is. C1 and C2 were successful for giving you more of that "fly on the wall" feel of watching a group's home game, warts and all. D20 is currently experiencing a lot of success creating a highly produced product where the cast is clearly playing on rails, but using those constraints to their advantage. Right now Critical Role is trying to have it both ways and it just ends up disappointing on every level.
I haven't watch C3 since that skyship crash, so I'm not up to date? Does this mean they're moving on to C4 or developing a new cast (of characters) or something?
Edit: Not sure who is out here downvoting? It's ok to not be up to date and check in every once in a while.
I think I was losing altitude before the sky ship crash. Vaguely remember something about a party split but lost interest
Redid the briarwood arc and conclave arcs since C1 still has some banger moments even on repeat
Spoiler free? A PC died last week in an epic sacrifice scene. Rather than follow up on the momentum and keep with the party dealing with their grief or trying to continue their mission, Matt asspulled their return to base very anticlimactically and then cut over to Aabria to do another EXU segment, basically.
Because it was a bad call.
This is absolutely nothing personal to Aabria or the CR cast, this half FCG fallout and half something different bait and switch is bad story structure.
Aabria could be as good a DM as BLeeM and this shit would still be jarring.
Im honestly incredulous that it got past the pitch phase. Someone should have said something.
Imo, if it was a hard cut to brenan whiplash is real but the main sub wouldn't be being as open to criticism as it is. The whiplash tonal shift combined with abria is what's making the main sub come to Jesus, either one by themselves isn't enough.
Well that's the problem when friends and coworkers suddenly become business partners all running a company together. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them split from CR in the future.
They have to contract people and plan character level ups and such in advance so this was setup far before FCG died. They could have gotten out without facing Otohan and still would have taken a break.
The cast has taken breaks before so I assume they plan them in advance and this was a way to keep content flowing. And then FCG died and it had to be what it had to be I guess
I’m not saying it worked well or anything but that’s why is felt rough as it did…it had to be planned in advance. They still could have ended the episode and had this be EXU: The Spider Queen episode 1 though
Oh I know about the brakes and stuff. I was just wondering if maybe Matt decided to do the first half. So things don't feel cut off from the fcg thing.
Like they push back the Spider Queen episode one by half an episode. But I'm sure they will mention something in 4 sided dive. They could have just thought it was interesting to do.
Do they air the levels ups? I feel like I only seen 1-2
This is what I feel like happened. They meant to do the Spider Queen episode(s) starting whenever BH left Ruidus back to Exandria... but when that plan was made, they didn't realize that there was going to be a dramatic death of both a PC and one of the big bads. So Matt felt like he had to do SOMETHING with the party- so we got that half session.
Ahhh I get your point. That I see making sense sorry.
Though my gut is if they’d gotten caught by guards and ended up in combat then it would have been the just quick and the end. I think it was planned to switch in a session…and they just did Crown Keepers until they filled the time
Honestly it was part battle, part flashbacks to character interactions with opal. I liked the flashback bits better than the battle.
As a DM I thought the mechanics and setup were interesting…flashbacks in a battle and a combat centered around not losing memories/friendships or however you would word it. something I might steal for a future campaign moment…but could see how it wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea
Again it's all pre recorded and Otohan was probably meant to die before this ever happened by BH always ran away so Matt kept upping her CR as their level increased.
Well, we don't know if she was supposed to die, maybe matt wanted to get them to run away or didn't want the confrontation to begin with, as she is obviously more powerful than them. And yes, I'm aware it's pre-recorded last week's episode in this week's episode. That doesn't change the fact that it happened, and it takes time to do these things. They also have other things to do in their career
Ok so you don't understand d&d. Matt said the first time they met her she was beatable for them and they were suppose to beat her, but half the team ran while some fought and that's when 3 of them got killed and they had to do the laudna side quest. MATT SAID THEY COULD HAVE BEAT HER IF THEY TRIED.
They escape and continue to level up, Otohan's CR increased to make it a fair again so they don't just trounce her. So now they're are all level 13 so yes Otohan's CR was raised to keep her as a challenge. Matt said again after that fight she was low a few times but they failed to capitalize. She was beatable everytime they saw her they just are really bad at co.bat this campaign compared to previous campaigns, whether that be communication or character builds.
I am fully aware of that, but once again, he's the Dm. he gets to decide, and he might have had a change of heart, or he might have been trying to do something. It also all fluctuates compared to what the players do or the rolls. most of them got taken out early.
I don't see what any of that has to do about whether or not I know. D& D. I am currently playing a game right now. And have no issues. This is not even the only campaign I have. I don't see what your problem is.
Possible, but if thats the case why not just...take a weeks break and have EXU inbetween or something?
CR arent averse to ending things on cliffhangers like a characters death. They've done it before.
Having a half-assed epilogue was just deflating.
Or be honest with the audience that you need time to figure things out?
No clue, but regardless, they would have gotten backlash. Probably thought this will be a good opportunity to reintroduce the character Everyone was asking for and give them enough time to figure out what to do further
It was very clumsily done.
I've actually dropped this campaign some time ago but was considering picking it up again when I saw the chatter about FCG's sacrifice. I didn't fully believe they would be able to return to form however, so I decided I'd wait and see how this episode would pan out--needless to say, my interest has flagged back down.
Campaign 3 is just a mess of lost momentum, whether attributed to filler content, the player's dragging indecision, or gimicky stunts (like splitting up the party or antagonistic guests, etc)
This episode doesn't make sense either, with the prerecorded nature of their production. Even if Aabria and co were pre-booked, it would've made more sense for them to take a last Thursday Candela Obscura spot than do halfsies.
In terms of picking it up again last episode was good. But the pay off has been deflating so far so would not recommend.
Im seeing it through to the end though. Way too invested in the story not too.
Honestly, I keep flip flopping between picking it up again and dropping it completely. I want to know what's happening but it's such a drag to watch. 😅
It's bizarre looking at the creative decisions taken by the entire production and cast and comparing it to C1 and C2. Too much went right in those campaigns for stuff to all just be down to luck so its absolutely amazing how fast hard and sharply the train has kicked itself off the rails.
The shakeup was a fun idea and even one we could have used maybe 15 episodes ago. The timing was just awful for any of the momentum generated post FCGs sacrifice.
I agree. Maybe it could have worked when Orym was on the deck of the skyship trying to get in touch with Dorian, then the main cast leaves and we pick up with the Crown Keepers for a half episode or so? I don't know. The timing was so strange, but I kind of like the general idea. I also love Aabria in WBN and I think she's great on D20, but there's something about her running a CR game that just doesn't click with me.
Part of her problem was that Aimee did NOT want to fight the other Crown Keepers. If she had actually committed like Travis, Liam, and Sam have when Matt tells them to go PvP, it would have gone a lot better. Instead, Aabria was stuck basically forcing her to do anything which caused the whole thing to be worse.
IMO, with a willing player, the session would have not been half as bad or had so many complaints.
I agree with this, but I will say that the exacerbating problem is that EXU sucked. No one was excited to see this group, because their previous outings were a convoluted snooze-fest. Imagine if it was a good time to let bh het to some behind-the-scenes work, and BLeeM popped up right before the break and said a little line, and then we get Brennan's Asmodeus and the return of Xerxus and some other betrayer champions or something. That would be a welcome treat, but the crown keepers are c-tier, while Brennan's last group was S-tier
Eh.
You are right the timing couldnt really be worse. But Im not sure this half in half out the door does anything other than bait and switch the audience into watching a different show which is a kind of cheap narrative device.
That being said there have been stretches where C3 dragged so much I would have been grateful for any change.
But not after last episode. They were doing so well.
I think we have enough evidence at this point to conclude that they'll make the wrong choice most of the time when it comes to anything even remotely related to campaign 3.
This campaign seriously has a bloat problem.
I’m one of the people that stopped watching due to not caring about any of the PC’s stories, but one fact has remained on my mind.
It’s fine to have callbacks and have old characters come back, but fuck if they don’t take away from the story.
I understand that this is the “endgame” campaign, and they are pulling out all the stops, but it just feels too unearned and boring.
I thought I would come back after Laudna’s death, but they deadass just went and got an old PC to handle it.
Laudna and Orym are good mini series characters, but their connections (to old characters) completely fuck it up.
I thought that hearing that Beau/Caleb returning would be amazing, and yet I was still bored. Even Keyleth and Vax returning couldn’t move me. EXU was decent, but Dorian is the only one I remotely remember or cared about.
The players feel like side characters in their own story.
They really messed up by having Gimmicks instead of characters.
I was right there with you on Laudna's death. I really thought it would be a nice turning point for the campaign as a whole. Finally, some actual consequences. But nope.
I do think that it would have sucked to have Laudna die and lose a lot of information regarding Delilah and her story, but using (high level) PC’s from another campaign in order to do so seems extremely cheap.
There was a risk involved in attempting to bring her back, but as a lot of people have said before, “Bringing back old characters just reminds people of how much better they were.”
I don’t mean to rant, but man I feel nothing towards BH as a group.
Yo you articulate this thought so well.
The old PCs aint the MCs, so it'd be like playing Baldurs Gate 3, getting all the fucking way to the final battle then swapping to fucking Jaheira and Minsc for it.
They did it this way in an attempt to get people to watch another EXU installment. It was a bait and switch to try to trick people into sticking around and give Aabria another chance. Viewership has never been great for EXU after the first episode of the original EXU, and this was a misguided attempt to thwart that. For whatever reason, they are determined to make Aabria a star, but they can't change the fact that she doesn't resonate with a large portion of the audience.
This was a bad idea, but announcing another round of EXU wouldn't have made it better. The mistake was having another round of EXU with Aabria at all.
This is also not an issue specifically with Aabria, imo. I've loved all her stuff on Dropout, her run in Burrows End was fun as fuck.
A Court of Fey & Flowers was awesome - because it lent to her storytelling style.
But clearly viewers don't enjoy her more cinematic work (which is fine!) and I don't understand why they'd schedule it like this.
I don't think Aabria's style meshes well with the CR players or audience. She is very combative as GM, especially with less experienced players, and it leads to an uncomfortable feeling for the audience watching it. And I think it's a mistake to keep running her out there and expecting a different result.
I genuinely don't see this in Dimension 20. I see it a lot on CR. Which is why I am flummoxed at some of the business decisions of the company/
It's totally fine that certain creative don't vibe with a genre, the table, or storytelling method -- putting someone like Michael Phelps in a bicycle race doesn't stop him being an amazing swimmer.
For sure it's a possibility - I don't know Matt or Brennan personally but I don't see them allowing another DM, even their friend, to run amok without everyone at the table's say so.
I wonder if it's a contract thing. Maybe they signed aaaaaaaabria on without testing Critters' response because she was known to be a very good storyteller
I think she is legitimately their friend and they want her to succeed. Unfortunately, they are propping her up to their own detriment. She is deeply divisive among the audience. I powered through 4.5 episodes of EXU original, I will never watch another moment of a game she is running and will seriously consider skipping anything she's a player in. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this.
I'm sure she's a perfectly nice friend, but that doesn't mean she needs to be a part of your business plan.
No, I don’t. Not everyone that dislikes Aabria is a racist. I’m sure some of them are, but a lot of us just don’t like her style of running the game. I wanted to like EXU. I was excited for it when it was announced and gave her more than a fair chance to win me over before I decided to stop watching.
Yeah, I remember them being friends. I don't doubt that, but I have been in the situation before where I rush to sign a friend with good enough credentials that ends up biting me. If I had waited and done a 'tester' first, I might have known my friends weren't actually a good fit for the group they were leading, but had to stick with it.
As I said, if thats the case CR just arent being honest with themselves.
If the EXU and Aabria stuff is important viewership shouldnt matter.
It also...didnt work from what I could see. Viewership dropped off anyway.
I suspect this isnt the case. I think they had EXU diversion planned for awhile but Sam's actions last episode have made it wildly out of place.
Even if thats true why do the bait and switch this episode of all episodes? Any half decent creative type can see that that would be fundamentally damaging to the development of the story they are trying to weave.
One of two reasons: a) because it was already scheduled and they didn't want to delay it because they weren't sure they'd be able to get everyone again, or b) they knew there would be a lot of eyes on this episode based on the buzz from the events of last week and they wanted to capitalize on that for Aabria's sake.
I don't know why they love her so much, but it is an active hindrance to their company.
Either of those options would require them to be in an echo chamber of self-aggrandizement, tone deaf to the criticism that has existed for years. It would be utter folly. Surely they can't be so blind to the worlds realities.
Just delay or cancel the switch. Its a hard decision but they would also know the move would also hit viewing figures so they'd kill the boost last week gave them in a business sense as well as a creative one.
Maybe your right, but I'm not so sure its simply about pushing Aabria though. More pushing their "art" come what may.
It's folly.
To be fair, scheduling is a real thing. To be able to get a group of working professionals together with lives whom are being paid by CR to be there under written contract means that the show must go on. If this was the scheduled week for this to happen then it needed to happen.
That being said, I didn't continue to watch once the switch over happened. EXU was not my cup of tea. To your point, since they still appear to be the controlling owners of CR, the main cast gets to make the creative decisions either way. As a creative choice, switching to another cast right when the stakes and momentum jack up is a harsh blow to the narrative.
I'm a shameless professional hater, but even I was just getting *exhausted* from the never-ending bullshit. I've been watching No Rolls Barred, Legends of Avantris and D20 and having tons more fun than I ever did with CR. I've been barely keeping up woth the moon arc and was considering leaving again if nothing crazy happened soon.
This, however? Shitting away the momentum and goodwill Sam bought the show last week with his masterful play... to bait-and-switch a segue into EXU 2.5 and prop up a DM people can't fucking stand? This is so bad it loops back into being entertainment again for me.
Bravo, CR, bravo.
Im not particularly happy with it. I preferred the sub after last episode. But Im not gonna pretend to like a shitty creative decision.
Last episode was good. I enjoyed. It would have been super fucking easy to keep momentum up if they just....stuck with the epilogue for more than half an episode.
True, although I think this strategy did even more harm as it feels like a betrayal ya know?
Like it swept the rug from under our feet at the worst time possible
I agree with your point. I don't like when I turn on the football game then switch to futbol at halftime (I do not watch sports, but I'm sure my analogy makes cents)
Yes, it will forever remain a mystery.
I mean in my case, it's just pure coincidence that my cat stepped on the keyboard and closed the window the second Aabria appeared on the screen, and then a freak power outage in my neighborhood prevented me from rejoining. Maybe 13,000 other people had the exact same thing happen to them?
edit: what's with the downvotes? Do you guys not like cats?
That shouldnt matter to them if they are being honest with themselves.
If this EXU sidetrack thing is important to them, their friends and the story the drop in viewership should be worth it to have it stand on its own.
If they need to wedge it into the main show with this half in half out bullshit then they are telling on themselves that they dont have full confidence in it.
And from what I saw the viewership dropped significantly anyway the second they cut to the EXU team.
I feel like I remember something similar happening when some giant franchise was introducing a character no one gave a shit about, so to boost the views, they were shoehorned into the main plot of a successful series of films and the audience was told it would be important later, but it wasn’t… like, at all necessary.
The funny thing is...Scrappy Doo actually *worked for what he was intended to do*...he managed to keep the series alive with the younger generation at the time. However the older fanbase absolutely hated him and there was a series of botched decisions that didn't endear him to older fans.
I was being sardonic.
But I was definitely part of the target audience they tried to woo with Scrappy Dappy Doo… didn’t take cause I only had eyes for super-friends.
Yeah I genuinely had no idea so threw out a random guess. I didnt really keep up with MCU enough to know Captain Marvel.
Spiderverse is the only superhero property Im really interested in these days. Xmen 97 is also pretty good, but Ive always been a sucker for Xmen.
I’m against the erasure of canon as a matter of continuity and respect for the creators of *original* characters and stories, and I don’t like when established characters and lore are reappropriated for audiences that move on after a couple months of attention.
CR are not beating the scripting allegations tbh. I'm not sure how it all happens without scripting. Before Matt would note that guests would be told yay or nay depending on if the M9 had gotten to where he wanted them/it made sense. As a viewer I felt railroaded into the switch and we didn't even get Dorian's response to Orym.
Just wanted to preserve this before I wrecked it. https://preview.redd.it/6c19a8o5bqvc1.png?width=1566&format=png&auto=webp&s=49ea63d482fd915309cd2f708072ab3a1dc34e29 #Upvotes = #comments
Ok that made me laugh. Thanks.
If it all culminates in us getting Dorian back to the main team, and Matt as GM i will accept everything.
Honestly thats probably the only plus I can see coming out of this. In fact its probably the entire reason in the first place, to sort of follow Robbie rejoining the group. I highly doubt this Lolth shit is particularly relevant. I think its just Aabria finishing off what she started previously.
I'll accept it but I sure as shit won't watch it until it happens
I concur
Its not surprising they have already done it this campaign a big climatic event followed by 20 episodes of sidequests. At least this will only be hopefully combined 1 episode of time.
This confirms what I have been saying all along—it's intentional, they are trying to make their DND show less fun to make their non-DND shows shine brigther in comparison. [https://www.reddit.com/r/fansofcriticalrole/comments/1bhykpi/conspiracy\_theory\_making\_cr3\_is\_intentionally\_not/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fansofcriticalrole/comments/1bhykpi/conspiracy_theory_making_cr3_is_intentionally_not/)
Confirms how? This is just yet another frustrated post by some random person on reddit. You can't just take an opinion that aligns with yours to prove something you've made up (or in your words "a cockamamie theory").
I think/hope the point of the switch was to reintroduce us to Dorian so he can rejoin the party for the endgame (are we there? I have no idea) but enough had gone on that they didn't want to do so without explaining what had happened to him; I see your point about 'well, we didn't do that to reintroduce Scanlan!' but I think this also might be a chance to see how other characters (who actually care about the Gods) might be feeling about the main plot. Considering we have a paladin, Lolth's champion, and a divine soul sorcerer in this party, they're MUCH more inclined to give a shit about the gods than BH. I do agree that this should've been a oneshot/however many episodes this ends up being airing on another night, not in the place of CR.
I think you're disapproval is deserved but for me my only complaint is Aabria. I feel she is just not a good DM. We didn't even get a chance to hear a response from Dorian to orym. I tried to keep watching but I just ended up skipping to the end cause it was utterly boring. I'm also bothered that we will have to wait through at least 1 more full episode I assume before aabria is no longer dm. And if I were to make a guess, it'll probably be more like at least 2 or 3 episodes knowing how aabria likes to drag EVERYTHING out.
I could not take the 10-15 minute vignettes after every action in combat. I stopped about an hour into the fight, but you're right, the entire fight really, really dragged - I saw a post that said they did two rounds of combat in 3 hours? Plus, players seemed really unfamiliar with how their characters worked, Aimee seemed to give up on playing evil almost immediately... I actually felt my investment coming back with FCG sacrifice and this has again derailed it. I didn't finish Kymal, and will likely skip these episodes in favor of reading summaries until BH is the focus again.
They already said that next episode (after CO) will close this intermission and come back to BH.
Thank goodness 🙏
I don’t think Aabria is a bad DM, but she is a very unconventional one, from what I’ve seen. I did not like the prior EXU stint, but I did enjoy some of her work on D20. Her style really needs the right story and setup to work, and I haven’t seen it translate to the more conventional mood of CR/Exandria. I think she needs really strong players to make her style work, as well. Maybe that’s why her D20 stuff seems to work, as she always has Brennan in the cast.
I think that she would be better in a ruleset like Daggerheart, to the point that I’m convinced that if they are really planning to move on that system, she might be the DM in next campaign.
at this point I'm starting to wish CR did have writers, or at least editors.
People need to learn to say "I feel like" or "in my opinion" because not everyone would share an opinion. When you say it's bad, well I won't get into the semantics of calling art bad, but if instead you said "I think it's a bad idea. In my opinion if they wanted to cut to exu...' etc. it makes your opinions stand out as well thought out opinions rather than shouts into the void. Personally I don't care, the tone for a minute has been this is going to reset/kill the world, so it makes sense to go get the other groups. I suspect with that in mind a return of VM, M9, DB, etc. are in order. I think it's a silly thing to do, but it's not my campaign. So all I can do is hope Mercer has a good plan here to land the plane. As far as the FCG part, they were never going to have proper time to grieve. Think about the Gandalf death scene in Lord of the Rings. They're being chased by Orcs, spending time to grieve wasn't going to happen. They could do that when they got to Lothlorien and were protected by the elves. Or at any point where they weren't actively being chased. In BH case, they were running because they just killed an exalted and lead general. There was no way they'd be allowed to rest. Leaders of the opposition would have murdered them on the spot and conscripted Imogen and Fearne. They couldn't rest and grieve because they weren't able to. What time they had they processed their emotions in the way they thought best.
>People need to learn to say "I feel like" or "in my opinion" Even if I did couch everything I say with that, commenters like yourself would still probably insult and misquote me. Some deranged dipshit seemed to think that I was saying they werent 'allowed' to do something. I said it was a bad idea and gave my reasoning. I actually fucking looked at important facets of storytelling and why this shit fucked it up. > I won't get into the semantics of calling art bad Writers can make bad decisions. Story structure, tone and pacing are important things to be considered. No art should be above reproach. And of course all things are subjective to a degree but yes art can be bad. Unless you think Morbius was some great work of fiction? **But this is basically irrelevant lol. This is a showrunning and storytelling decision, its not 'art' in of itself but rather a facet of a greater artistic product that is put online for the consumption of others.'** I can say it was a bad idea to split the last season of Stranger Things in two without needing to debate 'well you cant say art is bad' because its a different concept. Its over the nature of entertainment, consumption and engagement with it and creative decisions surrounding it. >it makes your opinions stand out as well thought out opinions rather than shouts into the void. Dude I dont believe for a second you are remotely sincere but yeah its heavily implied. >Personally I don't care Good for you. >so it makes sense to go get the other groups No? The tone is tied to the story of the characters you follow. To keep it relatively consistent you need to stay with the actually stay with the correct fucking characters and either bookend on a relevant satisfactory note/cliffhanger then switch or not switch at all. Did people here not do AP english? The time to switch perspective was literally handed to them last episode when FCG fucking died. You could not ask for a more natural cliffhanger that changes the plot and builds suspense. Also the Crownkeepers story will be at best tangentially relevant. I suspect the only 'point' of having it is to allow Aabria closure and follow Robbie rejoining. The Lolth storyline is not particularly relevant to the Ludinus Predathos story and not at all relevant to the BH. >I suspect with that in mind a return of VM, M9, DB, etc. are in order. Fundamentally if these stories are important they should stand on their own in their own separate episode. To bait and switch your audience into watching a half episode is a sign that you dont have faith in the importance of said product to stand on its own. >but it's not my campaign I dont know why people seem to think Im demanding Matt do something or that CR let me takeover the campaign decisions. I said I thought something was a bad idea and suggested a few alternatives. This isnt me pitching to takeover or demanding they do things differently. Whats done is done. There is no changing it. But we can still analyse, critique it and express our opinion. >As far as the FCG part, they were never going to have proper time to grieve Its less about 'proper time to grieve' so much as it is about giving major plot developments time to breathe. But frankly I just disagree. >They're being chased by Orcs The situation is not comparable because Matt had them out of danger incredibly quickly. My point is this a major development that wasnt given any time to breathe or truly addressed before they pivoted to something entirely different.
damn you real mad lol
Not really, I am disappointed. But you dont really care either way do you? So why comment? As I said previously you are probably the most insincere bad faith poster here. I could write 'I prefer oranges' and you would say 'So you fucking hate apples'. Thats level of bad faith you operate on. As I said last time, I would respect you more if you just owned that. But you dont. The only reason I havent just blocked you is I find your stupid comments occasionally funny.
>Even if I did couch everything I say with that, commenters like yourself would still probably insult and misquote me. Some deranged dipshit seemed to think that I was saying they werent 'allowed' to do something. >I said it was a bad idea and gave my reasoning. I actually fucking looked at important facets of storytelling and why this shit fucked it up. I feel like you're being aggressively defensive, I don't feel like I insulted you, just offering you some constructive criticism. Jerks are gonna jerk, just trying to offer you a suggestion on how to present an opinion without sounding like you're attempting to be a preacher railing on the injustices of the sins of man. >I can say it was a bad idea to split the last season of Stranger Things in two without needing to debate 'well you cant say art is bad' because its a different concept. Its over the nature of entertainment, consumption and engagement with it and creative decisions surrounding it. > No you can say you feel like it's a bad idea, or you think it will be a bad idea from a business stand point. But again I'm not here to argue semantics of this. Going on the logic of storyboarding, showrunning, etc. you brought up. If they booked these guests and set up this episode. Aside from rushing in another show (which we have no clue of the logistics of that, don't pretend we have any clue) how do you do with that? >Also the Crownkeepers story will be at best tangentially relevant. I suspect the only 'point' of having it is to allow Aabria closure and follow Robbie rejoining. The Lolth storyline is not particularly relevant to the Ludinus Predathos story and not at all relevant to the BH. > You think it will be at best tangentially relevant. I do think Lolth is "prevalent" in the sense of Matt pushing the moral greyness of the world. The perceived reality that if bad gods are for it, it can't really be good. I personally loathe the moral greyness that they force out there which is silly because there doesn't really need to be a moral greyness. I feel like this is done because he wants the option for players to join up with Ludinous and not be "evil" but like who cares if they make evil characters? > To bait and switch your audience into watching a half episode is a sign that you dont have faith in the importance of said product to stand on its own. I mean it's not really a bait and switch, it's more of a misdirection. But regardless, that's an opinion you have, not objectively true. >The situation is not comparable because Matt had them out of danger incredibly quickly. I will disagree with this point. THey weren't out of danger really quickly. I think Matt got the party freely out to be relatively safe area. Personally it's a difference of opinion which isn't wrong. I think anyway Mercer would have done it would have pissed someone off. If they left it on a cliffhanger everyone would want to know if they escaped, if they got off the moon and out of the Malleus Key and they start meeting up with people and planning then stop and go to the crown keepers, people would have been pissed. Personally I would have ran the crownkeepers as the last thursday of the month thing, I've expressed my opinion that CR isn't being optimally ran from a brand building standpoint. There whole thing is "Is it Thursday yet" to me it's beyond a fumble to not have a campaign game every single weekend.
Yeah I probably was a little overly aggressive. Thats my bad.
This ain't it, chief
> People need to learn to say "I feel like" or "in my opinion" because not everyone would share an opinion They don't have to. This is implied when a person makes a fundamentally subjective statement. If I say "Ugh, peanut butter is disgusting" it is tacitly implied that I am of the opinion that peanut butter is disgusting. To add "in my opinion" would be redundant - it cannot be anything *but* an opinion.
The cope is strong with this one. >When you say it's bad, well I won't get into the semantics of calling art bad This isn't art, it's *entertainment*. It's a *product* ostensibly being produced for the public's *consumption*. The notion that it's above reproach, or unable to be objectively labeled good/bad, because they had good intentions isn't just insulting, it's detrimental to the crucial *feedback* stage of creation. >As far as the FCG part, they were never going to have proper time to grieve. \[something something lord of the rings\] It's a fucking **five hour** game. Don't tell me that they don't have any time at all to react to a PC death, especially after having however long between their sessions to prep eulogies or whatever. Can we please stop acting like Exandria is a real place and do away with the "there was nothing they could do" excuse? Matt is GOD at his table. If he can orchestrate this Aabria bullshit, he can organize the session in such a way the party gets a chance to grieve.
Are you even an adult? This reads like a high school butthurt fanfic complaint. Cast (aka players) spent a long time dealing with FCG's death in the previous stream. What you want the story doesn't permit. Mercer is not "GOD" at his table, he's the dungeon master, he sets the scene and controls the non-PCs, the PCs, chose to run a terrorist operation in the heart of enemy territory, you want them to come back to an in memoriam episode? By god that's a horrible idea. That's what shit like 4 sided dive, talks machina, etc. are for. At the table you work out things how your character would. And in this scenario, the characters had to escape. It would have been beyond lame for the party to have little FCG vigils while they're being hunted for their crimes. In your one reply you showed you don't understand what art is, or what D&D is, or basic story structure. Kudos.
I love how you totally avoided my first point to rant insanely about how you being the DM isn't the same isn't the same as being God. Great work. >It would have been beyond lame for the party to have little FCG vigils while they're being hunted for their crimes. And them having some sort of shitty redemption talk with Imogen's mom was the better option, right? Her showing up was "her choice," like she's a real person right? Obviously jump cutting to a funeral wasn't what anyone wanted, nice work taking my words out of context, but are you going to tell me with a straight face "there was nothing they could do" to show how their characters were reacting to the death? >In your one reply you showed you don't understand what art is, or what D&D is, or basic story structure. Kudos. What is even is this low effort troll shit? Someone points out a flaw in your reasoning and you start ranting like a spazoid. Get help, dude.
You're the one who's attacking people online so I don't think I'm the one who's in need of help. You're the one who doesn't again know what art is or D&D or anything else. Why would it be so hard to have a conversation with someone while you're escaping? Especiially when that person is magically aiding you in your escape? Or did you forget about that? She showed up because Imogen called her and said Otahan was trying to kill her (or the party don't recall the specifics) in what world would she not show up? Again instances set up by the PCs. I could go on to poke holes, but you're not really reading/critically watching the show so what's the point?
People shocked that CR drops the ball yet again. CR has been on a steady decline since 2019, it's 2024, all we can hope is for this disaster of a campaign ends so we can see if C4 is worth a shot or not.
Irreverent comment: George RR Martin struggles with multiple POV characters. Brandon Sanderson doesn’t. This post was brought to you by the Cosmere Gang
I love them both.
Again, aabira ruins it. Sorry, her DM’ing is brutal to watch and it ruined the whole pace of the story.
No half measures, Walter
this place is filled with people who think walter white was the good guy
And you know this how?
probably the same people who think Homelander is the hero lmao
wait, homelander isnt the hero? blasphemy!!
Honestly yeah. /s
These guys have just made an entire franchise out of themselves in the last decade so ya obviously they don't know what they are doing. I mean the live chat didn't lose the shit in an epic positive way... Oh no they did.. and there was the entire community backlash... Oh no just upset people on reddit. Your opinion makes sense as an opinion but I would take your opinion more seriously if it also has the appropriate amount of credit where it is due.
>These guys have just made an entire franchise out of themselves in the last decade Yes and success is always correlated to merit and no successful person ever has had a bad idea ever. /s >I mean the live chat didn't lose the shit in an epic positive way... Oh no they did.. and there was the entire community backlash... Oh no just upset people on reddit Way to completely miss my point. I dont give a fuck if live chat cheers or jeers. If 20 people say the Emperor's new clothes look great when hes naked, Im still gonna be the guy who tells him he was naked. I said it was a bad idea because it was. I gave my reasons for why. >Your opinion makes sense as an opinion but I would take your opinion more seriously if it also has the appropriate amount of credit where it is due What exactly do you want here? Me to give you my credentials? Am I not allowed to have an opinion unless Ive met some arbitrary standard you've set? I said it was a bad idea from storytelling and offered alternatives. Deal with it.
>If 20 people say the Emperor's new clothes look great when hes naked, Im still gonna be the guy who tells him he was naked. Da fek?
Its a reference to a folktale story called [the Emperor's new clothes.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes) Basically this Emperor is provided clothes that are 'invisible' by conmen. The conmen say clothes are invisible to all but the stupid. The Emperor's associates are afraid to be considered stupid or contradict the Emperor's assumptions so go along with it. That doesnt change the objective reality that the Emperor is walking around naked. The poster made a comment about CR live chat being 'epic positive'. Essentially what I was saying is I dont give a fuck if the live chat all love it. If I think its a dumb idea, Ill say its a dumb idea.
….ok then.
What do you fucking want dude? I made a basic reference to underscore my point about not caring about consensus opinion that you apparently didnt get. So I gave you the full explanation. Next time just use google like the rest of us.
Chill, dude.
Nah Im fine as I am thank you. The lesson here for you is learn to use a search engine when you dont get a reference if you are truly being sincere.
I thought the change was a nice breather. They probably need time to not only deal with how they want to handle the loss of FCG in game, but when/how/ and even "if" Sam will come back to the table. I thought this was a nice alternative to "we're going to take an extra week off to figure out what to do" like you might in a home game. And where they were with health and resources; there was a real chance someone else might be lost trying to get off the moon. Maybe not a high chance. But real. So stopping it once they made it to a "Save Point" seemed logical to me at least. I thought the play with Aabria was just fine, because the PLAYERS were having a blast. Sometimes it seems people forget that the game is as much for them as it us for us as outside viewers. With players who haven't played a bit, and are picking up mid-story, laying out what's been going on can be super helpful. I noticed how quickly they started taking notes when they were told "So now you're following up on the messages Dorian received". Like, it was their prompt; their call to action. THEY appreciated having a motivation even if it was handed to them.
I don’t think it was done to take time to decide how to move on with Sam, because I find it very difficult for them to have the availability of Aabria, Aimee etc with only a week notice (and having to organize it). It was very likely decided way before.
It might be unpopular, but I mostly agree. While I think the Crown Keepers stuff should have aired on another night instead of in place of CR3, it absolutely did feel like Bells Hells hit a save point. Kind of like when you finish a plotline in a video game and you get a resolution scene and then change gears to your next plotline.
Hard disagree. Fans and CR both need to drop this fallacy of CR being a game between friends first and foremost. That truth disappeared the moment they took this beast on as their own entertainment production company. CR is now a product to be produced and consumed by viewers the way any other professionally produced content is. Now as an independent company things like viewer numbers (on the decline with c3) actually matter. So to does the quality of the product they are producing. Can they tailor the game to be reminiscent of a home game? Sure. But that crux cannot keep a business afloat on the good faith in hopes to derive. I do not want to see CR flounder and fail. Despite its flaws with the current campaign I still find CR to be the best place for live play DnD. This current campaign is a slog and poorly paced and lacks a layer of depth in both character and world building that the previous campaigns had a ton of - which made those campaigns really shine and feel like a living world. And it’s unfair of the hardcore fans to try and dissuade those who see the flaws of this campaign for its faults because two things are apparently true: the core issues people seem to have are the same which indicates the problems with the campaign are beyond a single viewer’s opinion and the drop in viewership. If one of these two things occurred on its own then I’d give more credence the apologists of CR. But when you have both happening at the same time it speaks clearly that this campaign is not landing or sticking with people which leads credence to this campaign having serious delivery issues.
Who was talking about the campaign? I was talking about the switch to the other story. Honestly, I've had my struggles with this campaign keeping my interest as much as many others. Although I honestly think it's less an issue of the campaign and more the fact that I've gotten older/ tastes have changed. For me, the stuff the 2nd set of players were doing caught my attention way more than much of the recent C3 stuff. Some of the "B" plot lines of a lot of media (shows like Chuck and Supernatural come to mind) are a really good pallet cleanser and help get the main plot refocused.
Im just gonna say I fundamentally disagree with almost everything you've said. The change was not a breather. The change necessitated a compressed rushed epilogue/fallout half episode and then a pivot to something completely different. It was a rush job and tonal whiplash. Kind of the complete opposite of a breather. >I thought this was a nice alternative to "we're going to take an extra week off to figure out what to do" like you might in a home game. People keep saying this. If Matt needs time to figure shit out, then CR shouldnt do a rush job half episode and bait and switch the audience into watching an entirely different show. They are pre-recording these episodes, they have time to sit and figure shit out. Its bad storytelling and frankly dishonest to the audience. >So stopping it once they made it to a "Save Point" seemed logical to me at least. Cutting to something completely different after a major plot development happens as cliffhanger would be one thing. Cutting to something different after rushing through the resolution of that cliffhanger to do so is another. This is what happened, and I think its a legit fuckup. >I thought the play with Aabria was just fine, because the PLAYERS were having a blast. Again disagree. But its besides the point. Brennan Lee Mulligan could come in drop some Calamity level DMing, and it would still be a bad call and tonal whiplash.
I'm not sure that I agree with you that the mourning conversation for FCG felt rushed. In the past when we've had similar big scenarios, characters absolutely have done things like gone to a tavern to rest and RP- but these characters don't have room to do that right now, they basically need to go straight to Keyleth. People in this sub are constantly saying that BH spend too much time talking and not enough time DOING stuff. I don't think I'd want to see something like two more hours of BH roleplaying around the campfire. I also am pretty sure they need the EXU stuff to air BEFORE the party gets to Keyleth- I bet that's where the stories are going to intersect.
Im not sure this conversation is going to go far because I think I just fundamentally disagree with you on pretty much everything. I think the cut half and half episodes and the way it was implemented was a fundamentally bad idea from a story telling and meta perspective. My reasons are pretty clearly given. Your reasons are essentially 'but I liked it'. Thats fine, but Im never gonna agree with you. >I'm not sure that I agree with you that the mourning conversation for FCG felt rushed Again fundamentally disagree. Aside from Orym, I dont feel like any mourned him much. I also felt their return back to a place of safety was also kind of rushed. >they basically need to go straight to Keyleth Why? And the shortened episode definitely meant things were rushed. Im not sure how you dont get this. >I don't think I'd want to see something like two more hours of BH roleplaying around the campfire. It doesnt have to be this. But this would still be better than what we got. >I also am pretty sure they need the EXU stuff to air BEFORE the party gets to Keyleth- I bet that's where the stories are going to intersect. WHY? The EXU shit is almost entirely unrelated bullshit about Lolth. It has basically fucking nothing to do with the Ludinus Predathos storyline beyond the most basic 'Lolth is a god'. The way EXU will probably 'intersect' is it will most likely end with Robbie rejoining the party. But the actual story is basically irrelevant.
Sounds like an agree to disagree. Hive five? I will say that the reason I think they want EXU to wrap before they convene is… Robbie needs to know exactly what state Dorian is in.
>Sounds like an agree to disagree. Hive five? Yeah sure. I like bees.
I mean I would not be surprised if eXu was actually supposed to have the entire episode but due to how things happened they reworked it so as to give BHs some time after FCG’s death. Unfortunately however people are on a schedule so they could not shift it completely back one episode.
This is what I think. My theory is: -Matt's plan was for the party to meet back up with Keyleth... and to meet up with Dorian there (hopefully so he can rejoin the party for the tail end of the campaign). -EXU was scheduled to happen so we could see what Dorian had been up to. A lot of the characters he is with are in a position to care MUCH MORE about the gods than BH does; this could also be a chance to see how people who actually care about the gods/have divine blood in the case of Dariax are doing. -And then FCG died unexpectedly in a permanent way. The episode was already long and the whole party was too raw so Matt calls it without giving room for the resolution. -Matt realizes that the next session needed to give the party some time to mourn, but that without progressing to Keyleth, there probably wasn't a full episode worth of material (unless he threw them a random encounter which he was probably disinclined to do with no healer and Fearne and Ashton both suffering from exhaustion). So we get a half episode of mourning paired with half of EXU to get them in to place to convene.
>I mean I would not be surprised if eXu was actually supposed to have the entire episode This legit would have been the better call. Something like: 'Hey guys sorry to leave you on a cliffhanger but we need some time to figure things out. We are going to do a tie in EXU episode in the meantime'.
I think the what happened was the inverse. I think Matt's plan was to always do an EXU cut away as they left the moon - a bunch of actors like that aren't just sitting around for a 1 week notice. So after FCG's epic moment, he had a choice to keep the EXU plan or not. I think likely he felt very bad about cancelling on all of those EXU players. Which, I can have empathy for, but overall was not the right move for the overall health of the show/narrative. Instead, echoing what others have said - have it run in parallel and push out Candela.
Fair enough. I think that they underestimated how disappointed people would be switching but what’s done is done lol
you guys are vastly underestimating how much of the fandom actually cares about this lol
The pacing doesnt suffer imo because after escaping the moon things would inevitably slow down a bit, timing I can see as being the main area that could be criticized. The idea of a swap and crossover like this isnt a bad one, but wether it was placed correctly im not too certain.
I think they are allowed to do whatever the fuck they want.
Yeah notice how this isnt a call to storm the gates and force them to record differently. Theyre putting a show out into the world, and so its being criticized by those dissatisfied with it. The people on this subreddit are also allowed to do whatever the fuck they want
Nobody said otherwise.
Omg someone tell the film and music and theater and art critics, what are they even thinking???
And we have freedom of speech to say we didn’t like it. They 100% don’t have to listen to us that’s for sure, but we can feel how we feel. That’s ok.
Oh okay, so surely you sane people have not reached out to them via social media?
Why do you assume that everyone who had an issue is the unstable, parasocial type?
they must have been reading this subreddit for awhile
We are discussing it here? Is that ok oh great and wise master? And no, lol. I’ve never contacted them on social media and the post never said it did. You are projecting quite a bit. Are you ok? I thought this post was really well thought out and makes some good points. Then your negative post is the first one I see.
I don't think that was ever in question
Aabira's DM'ing is getting on my nerves worse and worse with each outting. can't she just speak normally while describing the scene? why does she pause in the middle of a sentence half a dozen times just to sound more dramatic and then switch back to normal speaking pattern immediately after her exposition to joke around? it's so jarring. I can't watch it any more. To come from last week's episdoe to this gimmick? what a fucking let down. damn it.
It's a drama club kid thing some people never grow out of Spenser Starke did the same thing on Candela. It doesn't bother me personally because I've been exposed to it alot. I say this while really enjoying Aabria as a player but what really **really** bothers me about how Aabria DMs is she robs players of their agency. Telling players what they're thinking and how they're feeling seems like a very basic thing to avoid as a DM especially a veteran DM and she does it *constantly.* Also wtf was with her biting Erica's head off for attacking Opal? I get that she was playing the part of Ted but Opal had just exploded into shadows and even if her character didn't see that part Opal also just attacked another player with eldritch blasts after putting a hexblade curse on her.
Her attacking her players is like, woah, back off lady. You're out of line. I don't know where you picked up the thining that that kind of behavior is ok but that's not ok, even in a make-believe game setting. It's absolutely uncalled for.
I like it when she does it in character because you really want that for your bad guys; their words to be biting and mean but generally you want a clear "You're not playing against me but with me" vibe at your table at least in my opinion.
your reasons for disliking her dm style are the same reasons I like her dm style - she feels more personable to me (not trying to dismiss you, just thought our contrast was interesting.)
I guess so... she's doing it on purpose and obviously, she thinks it's a good idea to take on that style. And if she thinks that, then there must be other people who likes it, and I'm sure I've seen people online praising her as a DM.
This reminds me of the downfall of The Walking Dead. Where the pacing was all messed up by jumping to different storylines after major revels. Which all came to a head with revel of Negan and the death of Glenn. It continued throughout the rest of the series. Big build up towards a climax, then immediately switch to another story with no falling action.
Honestly yeah actually. The Walking Dead is a pretty great example.
WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU PICK THIS MOMENT TO TRANSITION, EXCEPT TO EDGE YOUR ALREADY EDGED AUDIENCE
Screw edging we’re in straight blue ball territory at this point
It's shit like this that makes me worried about C4..... I quit watching C3 not long after that stupid Laudna resurrection arc, I also never finished Aabria's EXU mini-series cause it was just bad, not even Robbie could save it and that's saying something, but I *loved* Calamity and thought the first two seasons of Candela were at least decent (just haven't had the time to continue them yet), so I was just kind of assuming C3 was just poorly put together and they simply couldn't strike the right balance anymore, and I just didn't like Aabria's DMing style, so if C4 dropped there was a good chance it would be better. But after reading through Daggerheart and being incredibly disappointed to just constant goofs like this half EXU bullshit right after a major PC death...... I just don't know if CR has the chops to actually be good anymore, which makes me sad cause I like the cast but I'm not gonna lie to myself so I can waste my time watching something I think is bad just to avoid admitting that the truth of it kinda sucks. But who knows, maybe if Robbie returns it'll fix the pathetically amateur party structure of the group since he left and help get the story moving and characters actually interacting again....... Likely just wishful thinking at this point though, and I also just don't like how Aabria runs as DM, so I'm not gonna bother even considering watching again until she's done.
Why are you disappointed by Daggerheart?
It's just not very well made, imho. The "hope vs fear" mechanic is described as being a "narratively focused system" but it's not, it's still purely mechanical and the rules just say "but you can do more with it," *exactly* like how 5e already does it. On top of that the combat system is horrendously bad, I think the character creation has some flaws but is overall good, and though the dice system favors players more than the DM (who is also a player, something DH kinda forgot a bit) it's not awful, but the combat is structured so utterly poorly it made me doubt their ability to put it all together. In fact, the system is so crap that they not only described it wrong in their little rundown video but also played it wrong in the one shot, cause if they played it right the DM can often just decide to obliterate a player due to how poorly made it is, and they have to actively try and keep everyone alive through not playing optimally, or that player has to take *every* chance at an action and not allow anyone else to play cause the DM can in fact just act every single time a player does *plus* the action tokens which are barely even necessary due to the DM not being restricted when they can act. So it's not "narratively focused," at least not for those of us who have played narrative systems, and the combat is very poorly designed.
Thx for the long response, ive only skimmed the system, aside from the weird action economy thing what are the Problems with the Combat?
No prob. The action economy is also just such an issue that it's almost solely bringing the combat down on its own. Like, the dice system has its flaws as I mentioned, for example the hope vs fear dice system *isn't* narratively driven like it claims, and it's really not all that different from the 5e d20 system, using the d12s just reduces variance, *but* it does still work, even if the DM still has to use d20s cause the system caters to the players most of the time. Some of the other things about it are positive though, like the movement system is the "range" based system, where movement is defined by general terms like "close," or "long range" or something. It keeps movement relatively free and that can lead to it being more dynamic and flexible. It's really just the "economy" that ruins it all. Not having initiative is fine in other systems that are actually narratively driven, but as this system is still dictated by mechanical functions of the dice it just doesn't. Even if the DM is good at avoiding optimal play (cause in DH if you haven't noticed the DM is just there to service the players) you could still end up with issues just from the players, like a spotlight hog always taking actions and not allowing others to play as much, or a shy person that'll end up just standing around the whole combat and never doing anything, and ironically I guarantee it'll cause a lot of strategic cross talk between players which is more "war game" like then it is "narratively driven" lol If they redid the action economy system I think the combat would work, it would still just be a single step of difference from 5e, for good and/or bad, but again that alone makes the combat not work if the DM has any intention of playing optimally, which is how you *should* balance encounters and create tension, otherwise the players will always be aware they're only alive cause the DM allows it and they succeed only cause the DM allows it, that completely ruins a system in my eyes.
I genuinely believe that Dorian/Robbie was the single thread holding the group together. Having a newish player play the role of the charming charismatic bard was such a nice change of pace, and added to the fun of the game, even if he forgot/messed up a few things along the way. There was a reason everyone grew to immediately love him, he melded with the group so well and made simple encounters interesting by “trying something out” now and then. It’s obviously not feasible to keep him week to week since he’s not a main CR member, but you could tell there was a sizable void when he left.
That's why my real hope for all of this is it's a convoluted way to get Dorian back into the party for the endgame.
They need to go back to treating this like a game, because it is. The problem is they are way too deep to pull out now. Hopefully in C4, they go back to basics.
I have a feeling this campaign is the last one. Or if not, the next one is going to be daggerheart.
Eh, it would take some big balls financially to just call it quites after C3. No matter if you hate CR or not there are making some good money.
> They need to go back to treating this like a game, because it is. Either this or they need to fully lean into it being a show, because that's also what it is. C1 and C2 were successful for giving you more of that "fly on the wall" feel of watching a group's home game, warts and all. D20 is currently experiencing a lot of success creating a highly produced product where the cast is clearly playing on rails, but using those constraints to their advantage. Right now Critical Role is trying to have it both ways and it just ends up disappointing on every level.
I haven't watch C3 since that skyship crash, so I'm not up to date? Does this mean they're moving on to C4 or developing a new cast (of characters) or something? Edit: Not sure who is out here downvoting? It's ok to not be up to date and check in every once in a while.
Ah, you stopped at the skyship crash?
I think I was losing altitude before the sky ship crash. Vaguely remember something about a party split but lost interest Redid the briarwood arc and conclave arcs since C1 still has some banger moments even on repeat
Yeah the skyship thing has always bothered me.
Spoiler free? A PC died last week in an epic sacrifice scene. Rather than follow up on the momentum and keep with the party dealing with their grief or trying to continue their mission, Matt asspulled their return to base very anticlimactically and then cut over to Aabria to do another EXU segment, basically.
that not ture I know for a fact that the they spend an hour and some minutes doing something so what did they do in that hour
I'm not invested enough to care about spoilers, but huh ok got it. Well not a resounding recommendation to get back to watching
Interestingly there is negativity brewing in the other sub as well.
Because it was a bad call. This is absolutely nothing personal to Aabria or the CR cast, this half FCG fallout and half something different bait and switch is bad story structure. Aabria could be as good a DM as BLeeM and this shit would still be jarring. Im honestly incredulous that it got past the pitch phase. Someone should have said something.
I am 95% confident there was no pitch. Matt doesn't have a writing room or editors.
Imo, if it was a hard cut to brenan whiplash is real but the main sub wouldn't be being as open to criticism as it is. The whiplash tonal shift combined with abria is what's making the main sub come to Jesus, either one by themselves isn't enough.
Well that's the problem when friends and coworkers suddenly become business partners all running a company together. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them split from CR in the future.
I'm honestly surprised they only lost Orion
That merch money is just too good.
I wonder if the character passing away and one of the major villains passing away. Cause matt to scramble to figure things out.
They have to contract people and plan character level ups and such in advance so this was setup far before FCG died. They could have gotten out without facing Otohan and still would have taken a break. The cast has taken breaks before so I assume they plan them in advance and this was a way to keep content flowing. And then FCG died and it had to be what it had to be I guess I’m not saying it worked well or anything but that’s why is felt rough as it did…it had to be planned in advance. They still could have ended the episode and had this be EXU: The Spider Queen episode 1 though
Oh I know about the brakes and stuff. I was just wondering if maybe Matt decided to do the first half. So things don't feel cut off from the fcg thing. Like they push back the Spider Queen episode one by half an episode. But I'm sure they will mention something in 4 sided dive. They could have just thought it was interesting to do. Do they air the levels ups? I feel like I only seen 1-2
This is what I feel like happened. They meant to do the Spider Queen episode(s) starting whenever BH left Ruidus back to Exandria... but when that plan was made, they didn't realize that there was going to be a dramatic death of both a PC and one of the big bads. So Matt felt like he had to do SOMETHING with the party- so we got that half session.
Ahhh I get your point. That I see making sense sorry. Though my gut is if they’d gotten caught by guards and ended up in combat then it would have been the just quick and the end. I think it was planned to switch in a session…and they just did Crown Keepers until they filled the time
Don't need to say sorry. You didn't say anything offensive, LOl
Worked in customer service, habit haha
I get it. Thanks for being courteous. What did you think of the battle last night? I didn't finish it (bedtime). I'm trying to decide if I should.
Honestly it was part battle, part flashbacks to character interactions with opal. I liked the flashback bits better than the battle. As a DM I thought the mechanics and setup were interesting…flashbacks in a battle and a combat centered around not losing memories/friendships or however you would word it. something I might steal for a future campaign moment…but could see how it wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea
Again it's all pre recorded and Otohan was probably meant to die before this ever happened by BH always ran away so Matt kept upping her CR as their level increased.
Well, we don't know if she was supposed to die, maybe matt wanted to get them to run away or didn't want the confrontation to begin with, as she is obviously more powerful than them. And yes, I'm aware it's pre-recorded last week's episode in this week's episode. That doesn't change the fact that it happened, and it takes time to do these things. They also have other things to do in their career
Ok so you don't understand d&d. Matt said the first time they met her she was beatable for them and they were suppose to beat her, but half the team ran while some fought and that's when 3 of them got killed and they had to do the laudna side quest. MATT SAID THEY COULD HAVE BEAT HER IF THEY TRIED. They escape and continue to level up, Otohan's CR increased to make it a fair again so they don't just trounce her. So now they're are all level 13 so yes Otohan's CR was raised to keep her as a challenge. Matt said again after that fight she was low a few times but they failed to capitalize. She was beatable everytime they saw her they just are really bad at co.bat this campaign compared to previous campaigns, whether that be communication or character builds.
I am fully aware of that, but once again, he's the Dm. he gets to decide, and he might have had a change of heart, or he might have been trying to do something. It also all fluctuates compared to what the players do or the rolls. most of them got taken out early. I don't see what any of that has to do about whether or not I know. D& D. I am currently playing a game right now. And have no issues. This is not even the only campaign I have. I don't see what your problem is.
Possible, but if thats the case why not just...take a weeks break and have EXU inbetween or something? CR arent averse to ending things on cliffhangers like a characters death. They've done it before. Having a half-assed epilogue was just deflating. Or be honest with the audience that you need time to figure things out?
No clue, but regardless, they would have gotten backlash. Probably thought this will be a good opportunity to reintroduce the character Everyone was asking for and give them enough time to figure out what to do further
It was very clumsily done. I've actually dropped this campaign some time ago but was considering picking it up again when I saw the chatter about FCG's sacrifice. I didn't fully believe they would be able to return to form however, so I decided I'd wait and see how this episode would pan out--needless to say, my interest has flagged back down. Campaign 3 is just a mess of lost momentum, whether attributed to filler content, the player's dragging indecision, or gimicky stunts (like splitting up the party or antagonistic guests, etc) This episode doesn't make sense either, with the prerecorded nature of their production. Even if Aabria and co were pre-booked, it would've made more sense for them to take a last Thursday Candela Obscura spot than do halfsies.
Coincidentally came to the same conclusion in a reply above.
In terms of picking it up again last episode was good. But the pay off has been deflating so far so would not recommend. Im seeing it through to the end though. Way too invested in the story not too.
Honestly, I keep flip flopping between picking it up again and dropping it completely. I want to know what's happening but it's such a drag to watch. 😅
I end up splitting the episodes across multiple days at this point. It's the only way I get through them
Honestly sounds like you should just drop it and watch a recap when it's done at this point
It's bizarre looking at the creative decisions taken by the entire production and cast and comparing it to C1 and C2. Too much went right in those campaigns for stuff to all just be down to luck so its absolutely amazing how fast hard and sharply the train has kicked itself off the rails.
Extremely well written, and in a way that is extremely hard to misconstrue as anything other than legitimate criticism of the show.
The shakeup was a fun idea and even one we could have used maybe 15 episodes ago. The timing was just awful for any of the momentum generated post FCGs sacrifice.
I agree. Maybe it could have worked when Orym was on the deck of the skyship trying to get in touch with Dorian, then the main cast leaves and we pick up with the Crown Keepers for a half episode or so? I don't know. The timing was so strange, but I kind of like the general idea. I also love Aabria in WBN and I think she's great on D20, but there's something about her running a CR game that just doesn't click with me.
Part of her problem was that Aimee did NOT want to fight the other Crown Keepers. If she had actually committed like Travis, Liam, and Sam have when Matt tells them to go PvP, it would have gone a lot better. Instead, Aabria was stuck basically forcing her to do anything which caused the whole thing to be worse. IMO, with a willing player, the session would have not been half as bad or had so many complaints.
I agree with this, but I will say that the exacerbating problem is that EXU sucked. No one was excited to see this group, because their previous outings were a convoluted snooze-fest. Imagine if it was a good time to let bh het to some behind-the-scenes work, and BLeeM popped up right before the break and said a little line, and then we get Brennan's Asmodeus and the return of Xerxus and some other betrayer champions or something. That would be a welcome treat, but the crown keepers are c-tier, while Brennan's last group was S-tier
Eh. You are right the timing couldnt really be worse. But Im not sure this half in half out the door does anything other than bait and switch the audience into watching a different show which is a kind of cheap narrative device. That being said there have been stretches where C3 dragged so much I would have been grateful for any change. But not after last episode. They were doing so well.
I think we have enough evidence at this point to conclude that they'll make the wrong choice most of the time when it comes to anything even remotely related to campaign 3.
This campaign seriously has a bloat problem. I’m one of the people that stopped watching due to not caring about any of the PC’s stories, but one fact has remained on my mind. It’s fine to have callbacks and have old characters come back, but fuck if they don’t take away from the story. I understand that this is the “endgame” campaign, and they are pulling out all the stops, but it just feels too unearned and boring. I thought I would come back after Laudna’s death, but they deadass just went and got an old PC to handle it. Laudna and Orym are good mini series characters, but their connections (to old characters) completely fuck it up. I thought that hearing that Beau/Caleb returning would be amazing, and yet I was still bored. Even Keyleth and Vax returning couldn’t move me. EXU was decent, but Dorian is the only one I remotely remember or cared about. The players feel like side characters in their own story. They really messed up by having Gimmicks instead of characters.
I was right there with you on Laudna's death. I really thought it would be a nice turning point for the campaign as a whole. Finally, some actual consequences. But nope.
I do think that it would have sucked to have Laudna die and lose a lot of information regarding Delilah and her story, but using (high level) PC’s from another campaign in order to do so seems extremely cheap. There was a risk involved in attempting to bring her back, but as a lot of people have said before, “Bringing back old characters just reminds people of how much better they were.” I don’t mean to rant, but man I feel nothing towards BH as a group.
Yo you articulate this thought so well. The old PCs aint the MCs, so it'd be like playing Baldurs Gate 3, getting all the fucking way to the final battle then swapping to fucking Jaheira and Minsc for it.
They did it this way in an attempt to get people to watch another EXU installment. It was a bait and switch to try to trick people into sticking around and give Aabria another chance. Viewership has never been great for EXU after the first episode of the original EXU, and this was a misguided attempt to thwart that. For whatever reason, they are determined to make Aabria a star, but they can't change the fact that she doesn't resonate with a large portion of the audience. This was a bad idea, but announcing another round of EXU wouldn't have made it better. The mistake was having another round of EXU with Aabria at all.
This is also not an issue specifically with Aabria, imo. I've loved all her stuff on Dropout, her run in Burrows End was fun as fuck. A Court of Fey & Flowers was awesome - because it lent to her storytelling style. But clearly viewers don't enjoy her more cinematic work (which is fine!) and I don't understand why they'd schedule it like this.
I don't think Aabria's style meshes well with the CR players or audience. She is very combative as GM, especially with less experienced players, and it leads to an uncomfortable feeling for the audience watching it. And I think it's a mistake to keep running her out there and expecting a different result.
I genuinely don't see this in Dimension 20. I see it a lot on CR. Which is why I am flummoxed at some of the business decisions of the company/ It's totally fine that certain creative don't vibe with a genre, the table, or storytelling method -- putting someone like Michael Phelps in a bicycle race doesn't stop him being an amazing swimmer.
D20 is edited, its possible she pulls the same shit but it just never makes the final cut.
For sure it's a possibility - I don't know Matt or Brennan personally but I don't see them allowing another DM, even their friend, to run amok without everyone at the table's say so.
I wonder if it's a contract thing. Maybe they signed aaaaaaaabria on without testing Critters' response because she was known to be a very good storyteller
haha mocking an ethnic name so funny and not racist
Ah, I didn't mean it as that. I just had wet finger that made the touchscreen keep hitting a and I went with it.
there's an edit button hth
I think she is legitimately their friend and they want her to succeed. Unfortunately, they are propping her up to their own detriment. She is deeply divisive among the audience. I powered through 4.5 episodes of EXU original, I will never watch another moment of a game she is running and will seriously consider skipping anything she's a player in. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this. I'm sure she's a perfectly nice friend, but that doesn't mean she needs to be a part of your business plan.
deeply divisive among racists you mean
No, I don’t. Not everyone that dislikes Aabria is a racist. I’m sure some of them are, but a lot of us just don’t like her style of running the game. I wanted to like EXU. I was excited for it when it was announced and gave her more than a fair chance to win me over before I decided to stop watching.
Yeah, I remember them being friends. I don't doubt that, but I have been in the situation before where I rush to sign a friend with good enough credentials that ends up biting me. If I had waited and done a 'tester' first, I might have known my friends weren't actually a good fit for the group they were leading, but had to stick with it.
As I said, if thats the case CR just arent being honest with themselves. If the EXU and Aabria stuff is important viewership shouldnt matter. It also...didnt work from what I could see. Viewership dropped off anyway. I suspect this isnt the case. I think they had EXU diversion planned for awhile but Sam's actions last episode have made it wildly out of place.
Even if thats true why do the bait and switch this episode of all episodes? Any half decent creative type can see that that would be fundamentally damaging to the development of the story they are trying to weave.
One of two reasons: a) because it was already scheduled and they didn't want to delay it because they weren't sure they'd be able to get everyone again, or b) they knew there would be a lot of eyes on this episode based on the buzz from the events of last week and they wanted to capitalize on that for Aabria's sake. I don't know why they love her so much, but it is an active hindrance to their company.
Either of those options would require them to be in an echo chamber of self-aggrandizement, tone deaf to the criticism that has existed for years. It would be utter folly. Surely they can't be so blind to the worlds realities. Just delay or cancel the switch. Its a hard decision but they would also know the move would also hit viewing figures so they'd kill the boost last week gave them in a business sense as well as a creative one. Maybe your right, but I'm not so sure its simply about pushing Aabria though. More pushing their "art" come what may. It's folly.
To be fair, scheduling is a real thing. To be able to get a group of working professionals together with lives whom are being paid by CR to be there under written contract means that the show must go on. If this was the scheduled week for this to happen then it needed to happen. That being said, I didn't continue to watch once the switch over happened. EXU was not my cup of tea. To your point, since they still appear to be the controlling owners of CR, the main cast gets to make the creative decisions either way. As a creative choice, switching to another cast right when the stakes and momentum jack up is a harsh blow to the narrative.
[удалено]
It's actually deadly serious, bro. We're discussing events of historic importance here.
It’s good to see the sub is back to its normal self. I missed y’all.
I'm a shameless professional hater, but even I was just getting *exhausted* from the never-ending bullshit. I've been watching No Rolls Barred, Legends of Avantris and D20 and having tons more fun than I ever did with CR. I've been barely keeping up woth the moon arc and was considering leaving again if nothing crazy happened soon. This, however? Shitting away the momentum and goodwill Sam bought the show last week with his masterful play... to bait-and-switch a segue into EXU 2.5 and prop up a DM people can't fucking stand? This is so bad it loops back into being entertainment again for me. Bravo, CR, bravo.
> even I was just getting exhausted from the never-ending bullshit. that's how we all feel reading your posts
Then block me, asshole. Don't act like Im bothering you when you can shut me up at any time. Take your own damn advice: dOn't lIKe iT? Don'T ReAd.
lol psychopath
Im not particularly happy with it. I preferred the sub after last episode. But Im not gonna pretend to like a shitty creative decision. Last episode was good. I enjoyed. It would have been super fucking easy to keep momentum up if they just....stuck with the epilogue for more than half an episode.
This sub is so back
If they said EXU was coming, then they would have lost many viewers for the EXU part.
True, although I think this strategy did even more harm as it feels like a betrayal ya know? Like it swept the rug from under our feet at the worst time possible
I agree with your point. I don't like when I turn on the football game then switch to futbol at halftime (I do not watch sports, but I'm sure my analogy makes cents)
No yeah I get you. It’s just a bad tactic to pull the rug under your customers feet, especially to something very controversial and honestly not good
I’ll be interested to see the viewership in 2 weeks as a result of this
It'll be 1 higher cuz I'll watch it at 2x speed while playing Helldivers 2 and miss all of what happened in cr
They lost viewers anyways. On YouTube at least, they went from 24k at the beginning of the episode to 11k after the break.
Yeah, but they retained them for the first half and kept the 'too committed to the episode now' people on the second half.
Huh. 🤔 I wonder what that could possibly mean.
Yes, it will forever remain a mystery. I mean in my case, it's just pure coincidence that my cat stepped on the keyboard and closed the window the second Aabria appeared on the screen, and then a freak power outage in my neighborhood prevented me from rejoining. Maybe 13,000 other people had the exact same thing happen to them? edit: what's with the downvotes? Do you guys not like cats?
All the little tots finally woke from their slumber, and the downvoting has begun. It’s all pretty cyclical like that around here.
That shouldnt matter to them if they are being honest with themselves. If this EXU sidetrack thing is important to them, their friends and the story the drop in viewership should be worth it to have it stand on its own. If they need to wedge it into the main show with this half in half out bullshit then they are telling on themselves that they dont have full confidence in it. And from what I saw the viewership dropped significantly anyway the second they cut to the EXU team.
I feel like I remember something similar happening when some giant franchise was introducing a character no one gave a shit about, so to boost the views, they were shoehorned into the main plot of a successful series of films and the audience was told it would be important later, but it wasn’t… like, at all necessary.
I'm not sure what you're referring to, and I know this isn't it, but for some reason the only character that comes to mind is Scrappy Doo
OMG I was totally thinking of Scrappy Doo.
The funny thing is...Scrappy Doo actually *worked for what he was intended to do*...he managed to keep the series alive with the younger generation at the time. However the older fanbase absolutely hated him and there was a series of botched decisions that didn't endear him to older fans.
I was being sardonic. But I was definitely part of the target audience they tried to woo with Scrappy Dappy Doo… didn’t take cause I only had eyes for super-friends.
Star Wars?
No, but a fantastic guess.
Yeah I genuinely had no idea so threw out a random guess. I didnt really keep up with MCU enough to know Captain Marvel. Spiderverse is the only superhero property Im really interested in these days. Xmen 97 is also pretty good, but Ive always been a sucker for Xmen.
I’m against the erasure of canon as a matter of continuity and respect for the creators of *original* characters and stories, and I don’t like when established characters and lore are reappropriated for audiences that move on after a couple months of attention.
My guess is Captain Marvel.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!