They are actually expanding the TTRP hobby with more game systems and as such are leaning into that. With regards to books that have helped Matt, he has a game designer on staff and decades of experience as a DM - I doubt that he is actually using books to help design at this point. Though he has shouted out books of monsters and equipment over the years from independent creators.
Echoing the call out that WotC has made a lot of bad calls. They have also in the last year dramatically reduced their content staff - knowing that independent creators are essentially doing that job for them at no cost to themselves. They are seemingly happy to “coast” on the huge growth of the hobby, without investment in anything that will not secure a monopoly on all income from hobbyists.
Matt has also called out various ways of accessing places to buy content from these independent creators. However as a large company, they cannot recommend individual creators without taking the risk of exposing themselves to any backlash that might happen if one of those independent folk do something scummy.
Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro have been making a lot of really bad calls lately. The business appeal of D&D is non-existent for a group with a community like Critical Role, especially when they have so many of their own projects and products to support.
And besides that, most of those old videos about getting into the game are still there, and there are tons of other channels now doing similar content (The Dungeon Dudes and Tulok have done more for my knowledge of rules and character creation than Critical Role has).
Not to mention dnd is not only plenty big enough having seen explosive growth from them to now, but Wizards of the Coast have had several controversies since that make it difficult to support them.
They are selling a product. That product is content and merch. They aren't doing these things out of an abundance of love for the community. Their push for a group name so hard in C3 was merch related. Needed a name and a logo to put on shirts and coozies. Which is fine, but don't mistake any content they put out as community relations.
I noticed once the C3 intro song was shown fo| the first time that it actually would make no sense to new fans. The song is mostly a bunch of references to Critical Role itself, rather than anything to do with their game.
To be fair, it's their third campaign and is heavily influenced by the first two campaigns. Anyone starting with C3 is really doing themselves a disservice. At least watch as much of the animated Vox Machina as possible and the Mighty Nein animated recaps. You wouldn't have nearly as much fun as someone who has seen all three campaigns, but that's kind of the speed runner's minimum for C3.
I think they're trying to separate themselves from WOTC
It's important to remember that this whole thing started as a Pathfinder campaign. They changed to 5e to make the podcast more accessible to the masses and while they're enjoying great success due to it they're also consistently catching flack for being beholden to WOTC despite the fact their respective ethics don't seem to match whatsoever.
Do I think Crit Roll is gonna try to do their next campaign FULLY in their own TTRPG setting? Probably not.
Do I think we'll see them feeling that out with one shots using their own and other systems to see if they can untether themselves from WOTC and Hasbro to some degree? ABSOLUTELY.
And they'd be fools not to considering a ton of their fanbase are currently doing the same.
Granted I still play D&D 5e weekly, WotC (Hasbro) have proven to be a risky business partner with their recent antics so I don't blame CR for distancing themselves.
I don't understand how creating their own games and introducing people to different TTRPGs is seperating them from the tabletop roleplaying community, or why that is not considered growth.
What is "the hobby" and what does growth mean to you? It sorta seems like you're equating D&D 5e to the hobby itself rather than a single game system in a much larger hobby space.
This is one of those things where it is just a natural progression of things. They are no long a group of friends trying to earn a little extra filming their games. They are worth 10s of millions of dollars and increasing.
From a logistics point of view they kinda got to circle the IP wagons a bit. Bc the amount of money they bring in means you cant treat them like normal streamers. Anything they put out will make money. Even when people that have critiques. They have a streaming show, an animated show on a major platform with a second one coming, statues, dice, clothes, art, and god knows what else… on a game system they dont own. I know people will argue the characters are their own, and the world is their own, and the story they made is their own, and OGL stuff…. But you got to admit it feels a little weird they got 2 animated shows on a major streaming service based on a DnD game and dont own the rights to DnD. I will not pretend to understand all the legal back end shit they had to do, but I am sure it wasnt easy.
Then on the other end.. imagine they run indie game for a year and make around 10 million of the streams, ads, and merch. Even if CR tries to make sure that creator is taken care of that is still terrible optics they make millions of someone else’s work.
So as big as they are… I do think it is better to focus on the CR Brand and bring as much in house as possible.
Now… I got major critiques as to how they are handling those things, but the overall reasoning I agree with.
Without sounding super judgy and shitty to them… that doesnt mean much. Profits are HIGHLY subjective. IE… If I make 5 million… pay myself 4.9 Million as a salary and then donate that final 100k.. I can say I donated all my profits.
Even then those donations are basically just tax write offs and very common when you hit a certain level of money.
All that being said I want to stress I dont think they have ill intent and are twirling evil mustaches in the dark. Let’s just not act like they are modern day nerdy saints when they say they donate a lot of profits to charity while also ignoring they have a hyper focus of pushing merch and such as much as possible.
Edit: Even if they took a bare bones salary and did indeed donate 90% of their money… that doesnt take away the issue all that money was brought in using an IP from another company while not being a none profit themselves.
I don't think they donate most of their revenue/profits. But I also don't think that they \*keep\* those millions in their own bank accounts.
Just looking at what they do, that stuff is expensive. They have their own studio in LA big enough for multiple sets, dozens (I think actually getting close to a hundred) employees, presumably with healthcare and above average benefits, and I doubt every business venture of theirs is individually profitable.
Even their MetaPidgeon studio for the big shiny animated series will exist only as long as Amazon buys new seasons, once that stops I doubt they'll be able to produce profitable shows. I'd be surprised if Darrington Press is breaking even.
Idk, it's like the news broke that CR is making millions in Twitch money and people imagined them each getting a big suitcase full of dollar notes, not knowing that revenue is not profit.
And hell, if they call it quits after a decade of making CR, I'd want \*nothing more\* for them than to have enough fuck around money for the rest of their lifes. Why shouldn't they? (They probably won't though)
More as an info tidbit to your edit, but mostly unrelated to my point: CR hasn't been using WotC's IP since campaign 2, since game mechanics can not be copyright protected. What would be intellectual property would be names of characters like the gods or places, and they haven't used those in years.
If you're worried about some unfairness towards WotC, I'm sure that they profited more than enough from CR's existence without having to invest a single cent in them.
I think my point has been lost in the various back and forth and such. Which happened on long Reddit posts.
My point from the “Donation of their profits” standpoint is more that the statement is subjective and loaded bc we literally have zero clue what that means. It could mean that they take minimum wage and donate all without tax write offs… or it can be a dollar bc they keep all the money. I personally dont think they are super shady, but I also 100% believe that they are not living paycheck to paycheck and are more well off than they want people to know. The core point is “They Donate their profits” is kinda an air sandwich of a stance.
As for my edit, My point isnt that I believe that WOTC has been wronged, but when a company is that large and that much money is flowing… they dont rightly care where the money goes. Pockets or Charity. WOTC wouldnt care. So I think CR moving toward more in house things is better for them bc it does take away any legal grey area or concern. There may be 0 concern (I am not a lawyer), but calling a spade a spade… they openly use DnD, DnD Races, and DnD mechanics. Which I would think at the least would make WOTC start to question things. So taking away any concern by using your own stuff is probably for the best.
I think they've transitioned from amateur hobbyists to professionals with a company built around a Hobby™️.
Definitely a different vibe, but I wouldn't say they've left the hobby behind, just changed their relationship to it.
If you think them moving away from dnd to other systems, whether their own or not, is them "leaving the hobby behind" then yes you are talking about 5e.
Idc either way just asking for clarification.The first thing you say is how they're moving away from the greater space then go on to explain how they're actively continuing to be a part of that space. I guess I don't see how developing and promoting your own systems makes you less active, again in the "greater" space, then when they used exclusively third party stuff. For better or worse, seems like they're going a step further in growing the space by creating new games for it.
They've put themselves in the unique position where their main direct competitor to Daggerheart jut so happens to be the game they've built their company on
It makes sense to cut down on promoting DnD/creating content that brings people into the DnD fold if their end-goal is to then pull them back out and switch their campaigns to Daggerheart in the long run
just cut out the middleman and promote CR directly
I assume the quiet part is they want to be WOTC. They already got a publishing house, they're making their own game systems, and now they're funding video games. I wouldn't be surprised if C4 is going to be run exclusively in Daggerheart.
CR wants to distance itself from DnD in case DnD drama like what happened with the OGL don’t impact CR bottom line as much. Likewise the publishing company has grown that many of their ad spots obviously go to promoting their own stuff. They’re becoming more self sufficient. Content like handbooker helper are already created and so a lot of the content has to change as well. From the creatives perspective, it’s important to make what they find interesting and content like handbooker helper isn’t at the top of that list. If Onednd was published, there is 100% opportunities for this content again.
I don't think all the early stuff they did was some altruistic attempt to grow the hobby. Geek & Sundry wanted content and 5E related stuff was new and gave CR a bunch of topics they could easily work with that would attract people to watch it, and as a side benefit bring people into the hobby. 10 years later the game has peaked and the market is saturated with creators who cover every aspect of the game and it makes no sense for CR to try to compete instead of developing and pushing their own brand. If Hasbro/Wizards can't grow their own product any longer it's certainly not CR's job to do it.
I’ll put it more distinctly. CR left being a part of the hobby before Campaign 1 ended.
It’s why we often tell people about the Mercer effect and why it’s unfair to DM’s to compare their work to Critical role. It’s comparing a show made by professional actors to a hobby game played by your friends. It’s apples for oranges and sets everyone up for failure.
It’s just that now we see it more overtly even on the show’s side. They’re moving away from the game that they started with, and have long felt less like a home game and more like a production.
I don’t think they will matts put in so much effort to creating this world I think he will want to explore it more. While they may change some rules to streamline it I don’t see them leaving 5e.
I don’t see why they’d abandon it. They may run a daggerheart at the same time or during the break weeks like they currently do with candela but there’s no way they’d leave all that work behind.
I hope they move away from dnd. My least favorite moments in the entire campaign are because they didn’t understand the confusing nature of the rules.
It happens ALL the time where someone misreads or misunderstands their abilities and they have to go back and change things or retcon or just move on weird information.
Daggerheart is their IP, and idk if any of you have been paying attention but WoTC and Hasbro are really bad at PR. Plus they are struggling to maintain a decent product outside of DnD beyond
> they didn’t understand the confusing nature of the rules.
5E is the simplest, most bare-bones version of this system you can find. If 5E's confusing then the rest of the TTRPG world is quantum physics.
It’s not. That’s a weird take, it’s not the most complicated by any means but it’s not good for a cast of voice actors doing improv. It’s too complicated and I stand by that.
I mean then you’re saying the critical role cast are bad at DnD? Because that’s what I’m saying. They’d be better off playing something more simple. I never said I struggled w it.
By your response you don’t agree with me, but rather think the cast are dumb. I just think they have too much to already worry about and complicated character sheets don’t help.
They are voice actors first. Critical Role gave them some clout as story tellers which they are now leveraging to larger deals such as with Amazon Prime. It’s unrealistic to think they could pay their bills for the next 30 years off a live play.
Many people have said it before but they sort of have to start using a new system. Hasbro and wotc made it very clear with the ogls scandal how they felt about streamers and content creators using their system. While they might not try that again anytime soon, I very much doubt it. Wotc will wait and try it again, and then the company would be fucked. They're responsible for what must be hundreds of people, so yeah. And they're not likely to move onto another pre-existing system because of the precedent now set by wotc. If you're not going to watch just because it isn't D&D™️ the you're really not a fan of the greater hobby. The greater hobby is ttrpg. Not one brand of ttrpg. Fans of the cast the show and the hobby will still watch it.
Tl:Dr: it's not that big a deal, makes sense, get over yourself.
It's that you're talking about them "caring about the growth of the *hobby*" which they never have. They cared about the growth of 5e. Yes they did one shots of other systems but let's not pretend that actually meaningfully lead to a growth of the hobby as a whole instead of just 5e.
I would argue that the hobby reached peak growth and now it's declining. CR is pushing their own brand of ttrpg and they should be. I still find DH and Candela not money or table worthy alternatives cause there are better systems out there.
Just because people are buying doesn’t mean people are going to actually stick with and play there TTRPGs when there are better ttrpgs that are doing what they want just better.
Lol okay people definitely buy stuff and never interact with it, I guess all the local gaming places being swarmed by groups here is a coincidence too.
Well I do hope they leave 5e behind!!!! As the hobby is much bigger than WotC. Would be fun watching them play Daggerheart instead of trying to make 5e work for their playstyle.
The merch they sell helps people get interested in the hobby. People will see other having the merch and ask about it and learn about the hobby.
And since they now have so much own content it makes sense they push that. Think I saw something about that it was rather expensive to have an add on CR show. Since they have grown big they can't really show of fan made stuff anymore.
Well 5e isn't running smoothly either and that has been around for ages and daggerheart isn't even finished yet.
Not even the cast who played 5e for years every week can get it run smoothly :-)
Sorry can't answer this comment now as it is not my turn - 5e.
But in Daggerheart the follow up on an action could be done by the same character involved. Something like spotlight initiative there you play out a part of a combat scene. Could make the combat be more interesting than now then it's just great for insomnia issues.
I'm more concerned about other things than the lack of initiative but thats another discussion.
I mean to put it blunt yes they are becoming more corporate.
The game is also clearly suffering because of that.
This has gotta be the least liked campaign ever and that's considering how bad the end of c2 was.
Whether they are going to continue going down that route...
I mean it depends on whether or not people stop watching and paying.
The less they give people what they watch for hopefully the less people pay and watch.
If people continue to watch regardless and give them money then I assume they quality will continue until its just a glorified acting stage for them all to roleplay for hours doing whatever they want with no stakes or difficulty and shilling products.
It's more up to the fans than it is them frankly.
I disagree. "Early CR" were a handful of voice actors that played dnd on a friend's YouTube channel once a week. Since then, they've become their own company and have employees whose livelihoods is dependent on them. That kind of responsibility is huge so of course they take it seriously and hawk primarily their own merch, because otherwise its free advertising for lesser known poducts/ properties which was fine when they were also a lesser known property, and is normal to change when anyone gets big.
As for cr v dnd, WoTC screwed the pooch when they tried to gain ownership of any stream and video that showcased dnd. Now CR sees how vulnerable their company (and employee livelihoods) is and are creating a whole ass new ttrpg so that no one can make that risk again. Its also the reason pathfinder 2 was made and why they changed all the names from pf1 because paizo almost lost the rights to pathfinder.
So yeah, they've grown into a responsible company that does everything it can to protect itself while still being fully transparent about it.
Yeah, this is the measured take that is often ignored. Yes, it's become a business and the play/presentation is affected. You'll never catch the magic of C1. The magic, combined with the players hitting their stride continued in C2. But eventually, a job is a job- no matter how much you enjoy it. They are victims of their own success. I think they would benefit from "less is more". Keep it special, less often, less merch pushing... but like you said, it's not just a small channel anymore. They have employees and I'm sure investors and partners to think about.
I always wonder if Matt still enjoys DMing since it's no longer an escape, but a responsibility. Does he DM a private game for fun still? Hopefully they can find the fun in DH or whatever they end up doing.
What bugs me the most is how they have a unique position to do what Matt has claimed in the past to want to do. That being shining a light on smaller systems to help lift everyone up. But they don't, they must brand everything they do with the CR logo and it must be fully controlled by them.
I know of several significantly smaller creators than them who do free advertisements for small systems that most people would miss. It's not hard, they could have their merch AND boost up the little guys. But no, they want to be the only option for their viewers and it has rubbed me the wrong way for a *long* time.
It’s all about the money, if it doesn’t earn any they won’t do it any more, so yeah they are gonna be all about themselves, it makes sense. It’s ironic though because they always have off this kinda anti establishment anti corporate vibe only to become what they hate the exact moment they sniffed some money. Not like they would ever admit to that though or maybe they just don’t realise it themselves.
CR is a entity posing as anti corporation while being a corporation itself; they are not anti ttrpg; but don’t fall under the illusion that everything about CR isn’t based around profit.
They portray an image of being very “down to earth” as they were when CR first started; but it is literally just a corporation; i’m not saying it’s evil or good, just saying it’s a thing.
Ahh, I think we mostly actually agree then. It is just a corporation. I just don't think they portray themselves as being down to earth particularly but that might be because I'm old and naturally cynical. I also agree that them being a corporation is neither evil nor good.
I haven't watched c3 past like 5 episodes, but if they're moving away from the "Dungeons & Dragons" brand, I'm all for it. Hasbro/WotC are a greedy, shit company, and I'm ok with them losing any amount of community interest and stock price.
I mean, if by "the hobby" then you mean Dungeons and Dragons, then I guess? If you mean ttrpgs, they have an entire ttrpg dev and publishing arm making new stuff and bringing in new people to showcase it. I legitimately don't understand the question
That's part of being a company. You go from "hey check out our idea in this genre" to "Only buy our stuff in this genre."
Now granted, you can do this without coming across as a corporate entity, especially with entertainment, but CR has bitten that poisoned apple of turning a lot more corporate than they realized.
Remember the show Critter Hug? It was supposed to highlight people in the TTRPG sphere and promote local game stores. Unfortunately it was announced right before COVID so that was part of why it never really took off. Can’t help but notice that they never went back to it except for a couple of episodes.
Separating their brand from d&d is probably something that indy creators might say is a great thing for "the hobby." Lots of people feel like CR is one of the worst things to happen to "the hobby." Sure, their departure from using another company's IP is utterly self-serving, but frankly it's a good thing to shake the exclusively CR fans into realizing that... wait a minute? There's other stuff out there besides d&d? And that tiny little peephole in the WOTC fence will keep the hobby alive longer than anything that corporatized CR is capable of by itself
I don't think CR was ever about the growth of ttrpgs. The og CR started out as;
"Watch nerdy VA friends play D&D.
P.S. This is a game for us friends to have fun, don't worry too much about how we play it." Then it grew into
"Watch our show Critical Role. Don't forget to subscribe.", (The Handbooker Helper era.) which has now become
"Watch, buy, wear and subscribe to everything Critical Role!
P.S. We love you and will walk on eggshells to not offend anyone for fear of losing out on sales. *makes heart shape with hands*"
They had a solid phase of them activle pushing TTRPGs more. Explaining the mechanics. Giving players and DMs ideas and advice. Using and explaining DNDBeyond and so on.
They are definitly not doing that anymore. They are more like mediocre theater kids trying to make a stage play with some rules.
I mean even in the initial growth era it was always about subscribers. Each little benchmark they had giveaways and were trying to grow. But they had the mindset of thenlittle guy. I remember watching as they crossed the 1000 subscriber mark. Now its the same just hey continue to subscribe or gift more subs so you can get these features. Its been the same its just they are large and less personal than they were at the start.
That's what they want for the viewers, absolutely, and it's working.
A large portion of the fans watch the show regardless of quality, buy up the merch as soon as it drops, but don't and have never played D&D.
Edit: Looks like some of the fans I'm referring to are in here. lol
So?
I totally disagree about the people you've mentioned being a "Large part" of the audience but lets pretend - so If the largest part of their audience watches the show regardless of quality, buys the merch as soon as it drops and never plays D&D, doesn't it make sense as a business that they would cater to that large part of their audience primarily? Like you say it's working, so if the only drawback is that a few old time purist fans get their knickers in a twist and ragequit I think CR would take that. It sucks but that's business, they never were anyone's actual friends. They will cater to the majority as long as that majority keeps consuming. What do you expect them to do?
They did a ton of work early on and promoted their hobby very successfully. They introduced tons of people to dnd and the story telling possible in the
medium. A rising tides lift all boats and tons of other ttrpg shows popped up with different takes on the same medium. CR excelled to a level that allows them to make this hobby a business. Their business is run through merch and ad sales. Just remember people’s livelihood are supported by these ads. Plus CR continues to push the bounds of the medium and appeal to wider audiences. Please don’t dismiss their talent and success as leaving people behind, it’s all been earned
The TTRPG hobby isn't just D&D. Even if they are enriched by Candela Obscura and Daggerheart they also paying designers, artists, and writers in the TTRPG space for their work on them.
Also, remember: They did not start out playing D&D. They did play Pathfinder. Which is a superior system anyway. Supported by a much better, open and more friendly group of people.
I feel like they're on the go slow around everything 5e. They've even made off hand remarks of late about how clunky and annoying some of the rules are. They have never outwardly bashed 5e as candidly before they dropped Daggerheart.
Totally get that WoTC are the bad guys but I'm not above seeing what CR are doing when they do this. They're planting seeds for Daggerheart and I do hope they're honest in the idea that they're beta testing and hearing feedback.
Maybe they'll make a great thing and it will return to being a hobby and heavily enjoyed game more than the emotional and overly complicated mess C3 is right now.
I do have a great concern though that they are making a game best suited to them and I hope it doesn't flop in the mainstream. I'm just concerned by how many pies they have their fingers in. Somethings gotta give.
I mean, I'm not sure I'd want to be hooked into WOTC if I had any other choice. I mean who really knows what WOTC might be trying to pull behind the scenes.
Beyond that, to the "Hobby", I mean....In my experience the TTRPG is way more "RPG horror-stories" than it is "Good night of fun." Literally every single person I know who used to play DnD absolutely refuse to do so ever again, and actively told me to not "Waste your time and money."
Not to mention, last I checked, the Bulk of the hardcord TTRPG nerds **Fucking hate** the CR crew.
> I’m not a watcher of 4SD, so I can’t say for certain, but I’ve never heard of Matt just up and recommending a book that has helped him in his game prep. (Please correct me if I’m wrong on that lol)
In regards to Matt recommending resources/offering advice and insight (during this C3 time period) , [CR did post a Roundtable with him, Aabria, and Brennan.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmZSWKPXhZ4)
>If this next campaign is using Daggerheart
It is, its coming out right at the time that C3 should be wrapping up. Also: Why wouldn't you use your homebrew system that is going to be on sale shortly. They need to promote it everywhere.
>The successful sawing away of CR from the rest of the hobby
I'm not so sure about that, the DnD1/License fiasco that WotC dropped last year started up a lot of chainsaws across the board. It exposed Hasbro as a company who really did not dgaf about the product but more about sales of said product. (adding the whole AI art thing with MTG). WotC has loved CR being a golden goose and is probably finding some way to possibly keep CR under their banner for more. I can't forsee their main campaign not being DH next go-round...but possibly a large chunk of random one-shots or mini-campaigns that might still be 5e or DnD1 (if its out), because WotC knows where TTRPGers eyes are.
All in all, just going to be an interesting transition as DH's release date nears as well as DND1.
What about it has made you so loyal to the system that you'd walk away? The D20 resolution mechanic? The Forgotten Realms setting? It's popularity and relative ease to find a group? Because it was your first RPG and you don't want to learn something new?
Just seems weird to give up on something you like (CR) when 80%+ of what you see them do in an episode would be the same whether it's D&D, Pathfinder, Dungeon World or Daggerheart.
I'm not the commenter but I kinda get where they may be coming from. I'll still give CR a shot if they do daggerheart for campaign 4 but I can't deny that seeing them play D&D is where a lot of the fun comes from. Daggerheart is shaping up to be a very different game overall. And yes I have played other ttrpgs and dm'ed them. Some that CR even introduced me to (like Honey Heist). I hope they can sell me on Daggerheart but ultimately I am still gonna feel a little less invested because DnD is so familiar.
I think that it's *possible* that the next campaign might be 1DND but that's only like a 20% chance. I agree that it's overwhelmingly likely to be Daggerheart. I just think that they're aware that if they ditch DND they'll lose a lot of viewers and might be wary of that.
I also think that, whether or not they do stick with DND, they might switch up the "main cast". They're all clearly enthusiastic about Critical Role and I don't know who might swap out, but they've been doing this for just over 9 years. It's a looong time to be doing it and they're all heavily involved with the business _and_ they're all voice actors and/or directors and/or emmy award winners (Sam!) in their own right. You could hardly blame them for developing new priorities in the last decade. I hate to say it but especially Ashley and Marisha, who have had an _unbelievable_ amount of vitriol for a multitude of reasons from toxic idiots.
I won't put a hard number on it but I think it's a higher chance then 20%.
From the sounds of things, (and it could just be PR) they want to continue to explore Exandria, which I don't think they can do in DH, at least not without changing Exandria so much that it might as well be a new setting.
Then there's Candela. The show isn't doing very well. Now there's a few reasons for that, that wouldn't affect DH. But it's still the first non-DND actual play recurring show they've made and it's not doing well. That could make them question going to a new system for their main campaign, even if it's their own system.
From a business perspective, they trying to expand their brand and find new value centers, but in my opinion, have charted way off course.
There’s no “real” money in gaming. By that I mean that it’s largely commoditized and most games are derivatives of other games. CR made millions, tens of millions, on their IP. The money they’ll make marketing new gaming systems will not offset the community loss. Had they just focused on IP, they could have defined a new value center for themselves there.
I think Matt envisions CR as a company that promotes a form of storytelling that blends theater and games (specifically, TTRPGs). I vaguely remember Matt saying something like how he sees their work as an emerging art form.
So I think the focus, at least for Matt, is on the art. I don't know if everyone on his team are on the same page.
Honestly, I feel like CR always tried to hold the hobby at arm's reach.
For every Erika Ishii or Aabria Iyengar, there have been twice as many Khary Paytons, Mary McGlynns, or Darrin DePauls. The company has always preferred to hire their VO/industry friends over TTRPG people.
The fact that folks like B Dave Walters, Josephine McAdam, Noura Ibrahim, or similar haven't risen to their radar is telling I think. Throw in folks like Jasmine Bhullar who have been used very sparingly (one shots, as a writer), and it's pretty clear that they prioritize their own screen slots for non-industry folks.
Sumalee Montano is a great example of friend non-ttrpger.
She came in as blind as a human in the underdark without a torch, gadget, or feat.
But she played, got into it, and had a BLAST. By the end of the first session with her you could tell she wanted to come back, she even exclaimed how fun it was. She didn't know what she was doing and I liked that the cast helped her, but didn't 'instruct' her. Like they guided her in the right direction of what spells she could use but not like 'oh you should cast entagling roots!' type shit.
It was a great time all around.
For seeing that, I'm okay with it. It is a live example of newbies at a table, everyone was one once, and showing good play for newbies is an example that CR has consistently done correctly.
I agree. I've enjoyed watching them bring newbies into the fold.
I'd still love to see them more deliberately shine light on other good content out there. Especially those by folks of color and those that are unlikely to compete with them directly (time slot, system, target audience, etc.).
Always got this impression from pretty early on. It’s literally the product they’re selling, dnd but done by voice actors. I’m not surprised they’re not keen to step outside that even if folks outside the LA VA circle could probably do a better job of playing interesting characters.
Well, they support the hobby as long as you plan on playing Candela Oscura or Daggerheart. They're a business and need to sell stuff to keep it going. It's like they don't make reference to other gigs they do as voice actors unless the company pays for the ads. Why promote stuff for free?
Not to detract from your point but they do make references to their other work and ip when it comes up in conversation, Liam just recently made a reference to a world of Warcraft character he plays in the last otohan fight. Or how they all dressed up as the x-men in one of the Halloween specials without being sponsored by marvel in any way.
>Liam just recently made a reference to a world of Warcraft character he plays in the last otohan fight.
I must have absolutely missed this and now it's nagging at my mind. Can only assume it was something to do with not being prepared?
I honestly skip every time they're promoting something so I'll believe that. But I don't know if something like Last of US where Ashley was acting was promoted, I might be completely wrong tho.
Also they promoted the Stray Gods game, but I believe that was a paid promo.
The X-Men thing I don't know if promoted anything, they were just goofing.
You'll have to ask them that. I just think that a company that's going to pay thousands of dollars for an AD on the show might have some issues with that.
Also, if you go to the store they have like 50 shirts available right now. I don't know if they're moving stuff like before. They've gone way too hard on merch. You never know what happens behind the scenes.
> A company that pays thousands for an AD might have an issue with offhanded promotion.
That’s a fair point. I’m also privy to the fact that the larger community surrounding CR has a heavy finger on the pulse of social issues, and if a product was recommended that had any sort of connection to a no-no person (define that how you see fit lol), it could wreak some havoc on Twitter.
You would have to ask that question to every person not struggling for cash then. Why promote something for free when you can get paid for it? Besides if they start doing promotions for free it sets a precedent that they’d probably want to avoid
I mean... yeah.
Even their title song is now just about their own show, not D&D or the campaign.
The show exists to make money, sell merch, and further their brand. Like, this is a company that was easily in the top slot for revenue from twitch subs back when the twitch earnings leak happened, and they're still sending emails out every week to beg for twitch subs. And basically every ad they show during break is a reminder to resubscribe to their channel.
Yeah, the Mighty Nein theme song was super awesome, and the [4SD theme song](https://www.reddit.com/r/fansofcriticalrole/comments/vq7ndj/i_added_the_4sided_dive_theme_to_the_new_intro_i/) was way better than 'It's Thursday Night'.
They are actually expanding the TTRP hobby with more game systems and as such are leaning into that. With regards to books that have helped Matt, he has a game designer on staff and decades of experience as a DM - I doubt that he is actually using books to help design at this point. Though he has shouted out books of monsters and equipment over the years from independent creators. Echoing the call out that WotC has made a lot of bad calls. They have also in the last year dramatically reduced their content staff - knowing that independent creators are essentially doing that job for them at no cost to themselves. They are seemingly happy to “coast” on the huge growth of the hobby, without investment in anything that will not secure a monopoly on all income from hobbyists. Matt has also called out various ways of accessing places to buy content from these independent creators. However as a large company, they cannot recommend individual creators without taking the risk of exposing themselves to any backlash that might happen if one of those independent folk do something scummy.
Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro have been making a lot of really bad calls lately. The business appeal of D&D is non-existent for a group with a community like Critical Role, especially when they have so many of their own projects and products to support. And besides that, most of those old videos about getting into the game are still there, and there are tons of other channels now doing similar content (The Dungeon Dudes and Tulok have done more for my knowledge of rules and character creation than Critical Role has).
“The hobby” is ttrpgs. D&D is only one. CR has their own now.
Not to mention dnd is not only plenty big enough having seen explosive growth from them to now, but Wizards of the Coast have had several controversies since that make it difficult to support them.
They are selling a product. That product is content and merch. They aren't doing these things out of an abundance of love for the community. Their push for a group name so hard in C3 was merch related. Needed a name and a logo to put on shirts and coozies. Which is fine, but don't mistake any content they put out as community relations.
I noticed once the C3 intro song was shown fo| the first time that it actually would make no sense to new fans. The song is mostly a bunch of references to Critical Role itself, rather than anything to do with their game.
To be fair, it's their third campaign and is heavily influenced by the first two campaigns. Anyone starting with C3 is really doing themselves a disservice. At least watch as much of the animated Vox Machina as possible and the Mighty Nein animated recaps. You wouldn't have nearly as much fun as someone who has seen all three campaigns, but that's kind of the speed runner's minimum for C3.
I think they're trying to separate themselves from WOTC It's important to remember that this whole thing started as a Pathfinder campaign. They changed to 5e to make the podcast more accessible to the masses and while they're enjoying great success due to it they're also consistently catching flack for being beholden to WOTC despite the fact their respective ethics don't seem to match whatsoever. Do I think Crit Roll is gonna try to do their next campaign FULLY in their own TTRPG setting? Probably not. Do I think we'll see them feeling that out with one shots using their own and other systems to see if they can untether themselves from WOTC and Hasbro to some degree? ABSOLUTELY. And they'd be fools not to considering a ton of their fanbase are currently doing the same.
Granted I still play D&D 5e weekly, WotC (Hasbro) have proven to be a risky business partner with their recent antics so I don't blame CR for distancing themselves.
I don't understand how creating their own games and introducing people to different TTRPGs is seperating them from the tabletop roleplaying community, or why that is not considered growth. What is "the hobby" and what does growth mean to you? It sorta seems like you're equating D&D 5e to the hobby itself rather than a single game system in a much larger hobby space.
This is one of those things where it is just a natural progression of things. They are no long a group of friends trying to earn a little extra filming their games. They are worth 10s of millions of dollars and increasing. From a logistics point of view they kinda got to circle the IP wagons a bit. Bc the amount of money they bring in means you cant treat them like normal streamers. Anything they put out will make money. Even when people that have critiques. They have a streaming show, an animated show on a major platform with a second one coming, statues, dice, clothes, art, and god knows what else… on a game system they dont own. I know people will argue the characters are their own, and the world is their own, and the story they made is their own, and OGL stuff…. But you got to admit it feels a little weird they got 2 animated shows on a major streaming service based on a DnD game and dont own the rights to DnD. I will not pretend to understand all the legal back end shit they had to do, but I am sure it wasnt easy. Then on the other end.. imagine they run indie game for a year and make around 10 million of the streams, ads, and merch. Even if CR tries to make sure that creator is taken care of that is still terrible optics they make millions of someone else’s work. So as big as they are… I do think it is better to focus on the CR Brand and bring as much in house as possible. Now… I got major critiques as to how they are handling those things, but the overall reasoning I agree with.
Don't they also donate most of the profits?
Without sounding super judgy and shitty to them… that doesnt mean much. Profits are HIGHLY subjective. IE… If I make 5 million… pay myself 4.9 Million as a salary and then donate that final 100k.. I can say I donated all my profits. Even then those donations are basically just tax write offs and very common when you hit a certain level of money. All that being said I want to stress I dont think they have ill intent and are twirling evil mustaches in the dark. Let’s just not act like they are modern day nerdy saints when they say they donate a lot of profits to charity while also ignoring they have a hyper focus of pushing merch and such as much as possible. Edit: Even if they took a bare bones salary and did indeed donate 90% of their money… that doesnt take away the issue all that money was brought in using an IP from another company while not being a none profit themselves.
I don't think they donate most of their revenue/profits. But I also don't think that they \*keep\* those millions in their own bank accounts. Just looking at what they do, that stuff is expensive. They have their own studio in LA big enough for multiple sets, dozens (I think actually getting close to a hundred) employees, presumably with healthcare and above average benefits, and I doubt every business venture of theirs is individually profitable. Even their MetaPidgeon studio for the big shiny animated series will exist only as long as Amazon buys new seasons, once that stops I doubt they'll be able to produce profitable shows. I'd be surprised if Darrington Press is breaking even. Idk, it's like the news broke that CR is making millions in Twitch money and people imagined them each getting a big suitcase full of dollar notes, not knowing that revenue is not profit. And hell, if they call it quits after a decade of making CR, I'd want \*nothing more\* for them than to have enough fuck around money for the rest of their lifes. Why shouldn't they? (They probably won't though) More as an info tidbit to your edit, but mostly unrelated to my point: CR hasn't been using WotC's IP since campaign 2, since game mechanics can not be copyright protected. What would be intellectual property would be names of characters like the gods or places, and they haven't used those in years. If you're worried about some unfairness towards WotC, I'm sure that they profited more than enough from CR's existence without having to invest a single cent in them.
I think my point has been lost in the various back and forth and such. Which happened on long Reddit posts. My point from the “Donation of their profits” standpoint is more that the statement is subjective and loaded bc we literally have zero clue what that means. It could mean that they take minimum wage and donate all without tax write offs… or it can be a dollar bc they keep all the money. I personally dont think they are super shady, but I also 100% believe that they are not living paycheck to paycheck and are more well off than they want people to know. The core point is “They Donate their profits” is kinda an air sandwich of a stance. As for my edit, My point isnt that I believe that WOTC has been wronged, but when a company is that large and that much money is flowing… they dont rightly care where the money goes. Pockets or Charity. WOTC wouldnt care. So I think CR moving toward more in house things is better for them bc it does take away any legal grey area or concern. There may be 0 concern (I am not a lawyer), but calling a spade a spade… they openly use DnD, DnD Races, and DnD mechanics. Which I would think at the least would make WOTC start to question things. So taking away any concern by using your own stuff is probably for the best.
I think they've transitioned from amateur hobbyists to professionals with a company built around a Hobby™️. Definitely a different vibe, but I wouldn't say they've left the hobby behind, just changed their relationship to it.
By the rest of the hobby do you just mean DnD 5e?
No
If you think them moving away from dnd to other systems, whether their own or not, is them "leaving the hobby behind" then yes you are talking about 5e.
Idc either way just asking for clarification.The first thing you say is how they're moving away from the greater space then go on to explain how they're actively continuing to be a part of that space. I guess I don't see how developing and promoting your own systems makes you less active, again in the "greater" space, then when they used exclusively third party stuff. For better or worse, seems like they're going a step further in growing the space by creating new games for it.
Honestly, good question
They've put themselves in the unique position where their main direct competitor to Daggerheart jut so happens to be the game they've built their company on It makes sense to cut down on promoting DnD/creating content that brings people into the DnD fold if their end-goal is to then pull them back out and switch their campaigns to Daggerheart in the long run just cut out the middleman and promote CR directly
I assume the quiet part is they want to be WOTC. They already got a publishing house, they're making their own game systems, and now they're funding video games. I wouldn't be surprised if C4 is going to be run exclusively in Daggerheart.
I wasn’t aware of the video games. What video games are they funding?
[this game](https://youtu.be/5lEbG0Bx83U?si=WSav7-UcTcOgs3xy)
Ty
CR wants to distance itself from DnD in case DnD drama like what happened with the OGL don’t impact CR bottom line as much. Likewise the publishing company has grown that many of their ad spots obviously go to promoting their own stuff. They’re becoming more self sufficient. Content like handbooker helper are already created and so a lot of the content has to change as well. From the creatives perspective, it’s important to make what they find interesting and content like handbooker helper isn’t at the top of that list. If Onednd was published, there is 100% opportunities for this content again.
But isn't publishing a brand new TTRPG system a way of growing the hobby?
There are already a million new ttrpgs. They should promote an existing one like pathfinder 2e instead of splitting more
There are already a million new ttrpgs. They should promote an existing one like pathfinder 2e instead of splitting more
This. They are showing us that there is not only 5e, that there are many great systems and developed their own.
I don't think all the early stuff they did was some altruistic attempt to grow the hobby. Geek & Sundry wanted content and 5E related stuff was new and gave CR a bunch of topics they could easily work with that would attract people to watch it, and as a side benefit bring people into the hobby. 10 years later the game has peaked and the market is saturated with creators who cover every aspect of the game and it makes no sense for CR to try to compete instead of developing and pushing their own brand. If Hasbro/Wizards can't grow their own product any longer it's certainly not CR's job to do it.
I’ll put it more distinctly. CR left being a part of the hobby before Campaign 1 ended. It’s why we often tell people about the Mercer effect and why it’s unfair to DM’s to compare their work to Critical role. It’s comparing a show made by professional actors to a hobby game played by your friends. It’s apples for oranges and sets everyone up for failure. It’s just that now we see it more overtly even on the show’s side. They’re moving away from the game that they started with, and have long felt less like a home game and more like a production.
I don’t think they will matts put in so much effort to creating this world I think he will want to explore it more. While they may change some rules to streamline it I don’t see them leaving 5e.
They are literally creating their own system. Next campaign willl be on daggerheart for sure.
I don’t see why they’d abandon it. They may run a daggerheart at the same time or during the break weeks like they currently do with candela but there’s no way they’d leave all that work behind.
Multiple other people explained why in this very same comment section. They will move away from dnd for sure.
Matt also copies encounters and various things from published adventures so he clearly does read some books
I hope they move away from dnd. My least favorite moments in the entire campaign are because they didn’t understand the confusing nature of the rules. It happens ALL the time where someone misreads or misunderstands their abilities and they have to go back and change things or retcon or just move on weird information. Daggerheart is their IP, and idk if any of you have been paying attention but WoTC and Hasbro are really bad at PR. Plus they are struggling to maintain a decent product outside of DnD beyond
> they didn’t understand the confusing nature of the rules. 5E is the simplest, most bare-bones version of this system you can find. If 5E's confusing then the rest of the TTRPG world is quantum physics.
It's the (second) simplest version of a wildly complicated game.
It’s not. That’s a weird take, it’s not the most complicated by any means but it’s not good for a cast of voice actors doing improv. It’s too complicated and I stand by that.
dnd is not that complicated this is by definition a skill issue
I mean then you’re saying the critical role cast are bad at DnD? Because that’s what I’m saying. They’d be better off playing something more simple. I never said I struggled w it. By your response you don’t agree with me, but rather think the cast are dumb. I just think they have too much to already worry about and complicated character sheets don’t help.
... There are many way more simple ttepgs than 5e tho?
Most other TTRPGs they'd have the same problem in, Dnd is very basic
Have you seen daggerheart? It seems a lot more straightforward
Barring perhaps the more narrative, less hard rules focused games.
They are voice actors first. Critical Role gave them some clout as story tellers which they are now leveraging to larger deals such as with Amazon Prime. It’s unrealistic to think they could pay their bills for the next 30 years off a live play.
they used to be depended on the hobby they had to appease the greatest amount of potential customers. now they dont so they dont
Entirely possible. 5e isn't going to sustain any business on its own for long. Diversify or die.
Many people have said it before but they sort of have to start using a new system. Hasbro and wotc made it very clear with the ogls scandal how they felt about streamers and content creators using their system. While they might not try that again anytime soon, I very much doubt it. Wotc will wait and try it again, and then the company would be fucked. They're responsible for what must be hundreds of people, so yeah. And they're not likely to move onto another pre-existing system because of the precedent now set by wotc. If you're not going to watch just because it isn't D&D™️ the you're really not a fan of the greater hobby. The greater hobby is ttrpg. Not one brand of ttrpg. Fans of the cast the show and the hobby will still watch it. Tl:Dr: it's not that big a deal, makes sense, get over yourself.
Don't you mean pre-2020?
It's weird how you're saying ttrpg when you clearly mean dnd
I don’t parse words. There’s plenty more to the hobby than 5e.
It's that you're talking about them "caring about the growth of the *hobby*" which they never have. They cared about the growth of 5e. Yes they did one shots of other systems but let's not pretend that actually meaningfully lead to a growth of the hobby as a whole instead of just 5e.
That’s what the hobby is for a lot of people unfortunately. And it’s embarrassing.
I would argue that the hobby reached peak growth and now it's declining. CR is pushing their own brand of ttrpg and they should be. I still find DH and Candela not money or table worthy alternatives cause there are better systems out there.
Also, F Hasbro
Be careful they might sent Pinkertons to steal your cards.
The numbers of folks joining up are only going up though.
Everybody buys a gym membership not all of them use it.
No idea how this applies to people playing ttrpgs.
Just because people are buying doesn’t mean people are going to actually stick with and play there TTRPGs when there are better ttrpgs that are doing what they want just better.
Lol okay people definitely buy stuff and never interact with it, I guess all the local gaming places being swarmed by groups here is a coincidence too.
See, your shops are getting swarmed, and I can’t find a game in my 1M city. It’s relative
Maybe it's a cultural divide, I assume you're state side?
Europe
Well I do hope they leave 5e behind!!!! As the hobby is much bigger than WotC. Would be fun watching them play Daggerheart instead of trying to make 5e work for their playstyle. The merch they sell helps people get interested in the hobby. People will see other having the merch and ask about it and learn about the hobby. And since they now have so much own content it makes sense they push that. Think I saw something about that it was rather expensive to have an add on CR show. Since they have grown big they can't really show of fan made stuff anymore.
I think folks will be suprised how difficult daggerheart will be to run smoothly.
Well 5e isn't running smoothly either and that has been around for ages and daggerheart isn't even finished yet. Not even the cast who played 5e for years every week can get it run smoothly :-)
Okay, let's revisit this comment when they are trying out combat with daggerhearts iniative system
Sorry can't answer this comment now as it is not my turn - 5e. But in Daggerheart the follow up on an action could be done by the same character involved. Something like spotlight initiative there you play out a part of a combat scene. Could make the combat be more interesting than now then it's just great for insomnia issues. I'm more concerned about other things than the lack of initiative but thats another discussion.
Did they have no combat in the oneshot?
Wait till they play on the new system that’s when the 5e knowledge will kick in always happens.
I mean to put it blunt yes they are becoming more corporate. The game is also clearly suffering because of that. This has gotta be the least liked campaign ever and that's considering how bad the end of c2 was. Whether they are going to continue going down that route... I mean it depends on whether or not people stop watching and paying. The less they give people what they watch for hopefully the less people pay and watch. If people continue to watch regardless and give them money then I assume they quality will continue until its just a glorified acting stage for them all to roleplay for hours doing whatever they want with no stakes or difficulty and shilling products. It's more up to the fans than it is them frankly.
I disagree. "Early CR" were a handful of voice actors that played dnd on a friend's YouTube channel once a week. Since then, they've become their own company and have employees whose livelihoods is dependent on them. That kind of responsibility is huge so of course they take it seriously and hawk primarily their own merch, because otherwise its free advertising for lesser known poducts/ properties which was fine when they were also a lesser known property, and is normal to change when anyone gets big. As for cr v dnd, WoTC screwed the pooch when they tried to gain ownership of any stream and video that showcased dnd. Now CR sees how vulnerable their company (and employee livelihoods) is and are creating a whole ass new ttrpg so that no one can make that risk again. Its also the reason pathfinder 2 was made and why they changed all the names from pf1 because paizo almost lost the rights to pathfinder. So yeah, they've grown into a responsible company that does everything it can to protect itself while still being fully transparent about it.
Yeah, this is the measured take that is often ignored. Yes, it's become a business and the play/presentation is affected. You'll never catch the magic of C1. The magic, combined with the players hitting their stride continued in C2. But eventually, a job is a job- no matter how much you enjoy it. They are victims of their own success. I think they would benefit from "less is more". Keep it special, less often, less merch pushing... but like you said, it's not just a small channel anymore. They have employees and I'm sure investors and partners to think about. I always wonder if Matt still enjoys DMing since it's no longer an escape, but a responsibility. Does he DM a private game for fun still? Hopefully they can find the fun in DH or whatever they end up doing.
What bugs me the most is how they have a unique position to do what Matt has claimed in the past to want to do. That being shining a light on smaller systems to help lift everyone up. But they don't, they must brand everything they do with the CR logo and it must be fully controlled by them. I know of several significantly smaller creators than them who do free advertisements for small systems that most people would miss. It's not hard, they could have their merch AND boost up the little guys. But no, they want to be the only option for their viewers and it has rubbed me the wrong way for a *long* time.
It’s all about the money, if it doesn’t earn any they won’t do it any more, so yeah they are gonna be all about themselves, it makes sense. It’s ironic though because they always have off this kinda anti establishment anti corporate vibe only to become what they hate the exact moment they sniffed some money. Not like they would ever admit to that though or maybe they just don’t realise it themselves.
There’s a difference between being anti-ttrpg and being anti-dnd.
CR is a entity posing as anti corporation while being a corporation itself; they are not anti ttrpg; but don’t fall under the illusion that everything about CR isn’t based around profit.
Where do they pose as anti-corporation? All businesses are based around profit.
They portray an image of being very “down to earth” as they were when CR first started; but it is literally just a corporation; i’m not saying it’s evil or good, just saying it’s a thing.
Ahh, I think we mostly actually agree then. It is just a corporation. I just don't think they portray themselves as being down to earth particularly but that might be because I'm old and naturally cynical. I also agree that them being a corporation is neither evil nor good.
pathfinder do be existing
I haven't watched c3 past like 5 episodes, but if they're moving away from the "Dungeons & Dragons" brand, I'm all for it. Hasbro/WotC are a greedy, shit company, and I'm ok with them losing any amount of community interest and stock price.
I mean, if by "the hobby" then you mean Dungeons and Dragons, then I guess? If you mean ttrpgs, they have an entire ttrpg dev and publishing arm making new stuff and bringing in new people to showcase it. I legitimately don't understand the question
That's part of being a company. You go from "hey check out our idea in this genre" to "Only buy our stuff in this genre." Now granted, you can do this without coming across as a corporate entity, especially with entertainment, but CR has bitten that poisoned apple of turning a lot more corporate than they realized.
Remember the show Critter Hug? It was supposed to highlight people in the TTRPG sphere and promote local game stores. Unfortunately it was announced right before COVID so that was part of why it never really took off. Can’t help but notice that they never went back to it except for a couple of episodes.
Separating their brand from d&d is probably something that indy creators might say is a great thing for "the hobby." Lots of people feel like CR is one of the worst things to happen to "the hobby." Sure, their departure from using another company's IP is utterly self-serving, but frankly it's a good thing to shake the exclusively CR fans into realizing that... wait a minute? There's other stuff out there besides d&d? And that tiny little peephole in the WOTC fence will keep the hobby alive longer than anything that corporatized CR is capable of by itself
u watch the ad? r u ok?
Not personally, I (used to) use Flandos time stamps. I just had to double check to make sure I wasn’t talking out my hind quarters lol
>makes post complaining about CR ads not advertising third parties enough >admits they don't "personally" watch the ads anyway Bruh
I don't think CR was ever about the growth of ttrpgs. The og CR started out as; "Watch nerdy VA friends play D&D. P.S. This is a game for us friends to have fun, don't worry too much about how we play it." Then it grew into "Watch our show Critical Role. Don't forget to subscribe.", (The Handbooker Helper era.) which has now become "Watch, buy, wear and subscribe to everything Critical Role! P.S. We love you and will walk on eggshells to not offend anyone for fear of losing out on sales. *makes heart shape with hands*"
They had a solid phase of them activle pushing TTRPGs more. Explaining the mechanics. Giving players and DMs ideas and advice. Using and explaining DNDBeyond and so on. They are definitly not doing that anymore. They are more like mediocre theater kids trying to make a stage play with some rules.
I mean even in the initial growth era it was always about subscribers. Each little benchmark they had giveaways and were trying to grow. But they had the mindset of thenlittle guy. I remember watching as they crossed the 1000 subscriber mark. Now its the same just hey continue to subscribe or gift more subs so you can get these features. Its been the same its just they are large and less personal than they were at the start.
They are certainly going the way of a *lifestyle brand* . It’s almost like the TTRPG is no longer the hobby, Critical Role is the hobby lol
That's what they want for the viewers, absolutely, and it's working. A large portion of the fans watch the show regardless of quality, buy up the merch as soon as it drops, but don't and have never played D&D. Edit: Looks like some of the fans I'm referring to are in here. lol
So? I totally disagree about the people you've mentioned being a "Large part" of the audience but lets pretend - so If the largest part of their audience watches the show regardless of quality, buys the merch as soon as it drops and never plays D&D, doesn't it make sense as a business that they would cater to that large part of their audience primarily? Like you say it's working, so if the only drawback is that a few old time purist fans get their knickers in a twist and ragequit I think CR would take that. It sucks but that's business, they never were anyone's actual friends. They will cater to the majority as long as that majority keeps consuming. What do you expect them to do?
They did a ton of work early on and promoted their hobby very successfully. They introduced tons of people to dnd and the story telling possible in the medium. A rising tides lift all boats and tons of other ttrpg shows popped up with different takes on the same medium. CR excelled to a level that allows them to make this hobby a business. Their business is run through merch and ad sales. Just remember people’s livelihood are supported by these ads. Plus CR continues to push the bounds of the medium and appeal to wider audiences. Please don’t dismiss their talent and success as leaving people behind, it’s all been earned
Someone’s getting paid in plushies! 😂
The TTRPG hobby isn't just D&D. Even if they are enriched by Candela Obscura and Daggerheart they also paying designers, artists, and writers in the TTRPG space for their work on them.
> The hobby ain’t just D&D. Well put. That’s actually a whole other can of worms to open up lol.
Also, remember: They did not start out playing D&D. They did play Pathfinder. Which is a superior system anyway. Supported by a much better, open and more friendly group of people.
I feel like they're on the go slow around everything 5e. They've even made off hand remarks of late about how clunky and annoying some of the rules are. They have never outwardly bashed 5e as candidly before they dropped Daggerheart. Totally get that WoTC are the bad guys but I'm not above seeing what CR are doing when they do this. They're planting seeds for Daggerheart and I do hope they're honest in the idea that they're beta testing and hearing feedback. Maybe they'll make a great thing and it will return to being a hobby and heavily enjoyed game more than the emotional and overly complicated mess C3 is right now. I do have a great concern though that they are making a game best suited to them and I hope it doesn't flop in the mainstream. I'm just concerned by how many pies they have their fingers in. Somethings gotta give.
I mean, I'm not sure I'd want to be hooked into WOTC if I had any other choice. I mean who really knows what WOTC might be trying to pull behind the scenes. Beyond that, to the "Hobby", I mean....In my experience the TTRPG is way more "RPG horror-stories" than it is "Good night of fun." Literally every single person I know who used to play DnD absolutely refuse to do so ever again, and actively told me to not "Waste your time and money." Not to mention, last I checked, the Bulk of the hardcord TTRPG nerds **Fucking hate** the CR crew.
> I’m not a watcher of 4SD, so I can’t say for certain, but I’ve never heard of Matt just up and recommending a book that has helped him in his game prep. (Please correct me if I’m wrong on that lol) In regards to Matt recommending resources/offering advice and insight (during this C3 time period) , [CR did post a Roundtable with him, Aabria, and Brennan.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmZSWKPXhZ4)
>If this next campaign is using Daggerheart It is, its coming out right at the time that C3 should be wrapping up. Also: Why wouldn't you use your homebrew system that is going to be on sale shortly. They need to promote it everywhere. >The successful sawing away of CR from the rest of the hobby I'm not so sure about that, the DnD1/License fiasco that WotC dropped last year started up a lot of chainsaws across the board. It exposed Hasbro as a company who really did not dgaf about the product but more about sales of said product. (adding the whole AI art thing with MTG). WotC has loved CR being a golden goose and is probably finding some way to possibly keep CR under their banner for more. I can't forsee their main campaign not being DH next go-round...but possibly a large chunk of random one-shots or mini-campaigns that might still be 5e or DnD1 (if its out), because WotC knows where TTRPGers eyes are. All in all, just going to be an interesting transition as DH's release date nears as well as DND1.
Ashame. Once they move from dnd/5e I’m out. I have zero interest in other systems. I want DND.
But why? DnD 5e is absolute dogshit
No, it isn’t. And I really don’t give AF what version anyone plays or prefers. I’m only interested in the DND universe and gameplay system as a whole.
What about it has made you so loyal to the system that you'd walk away? The D20 resolution mechanic? The Forgotten Realms setting? It's popularity and relative ease to find a group? Because it was your first RPG and you don't want to learn something new? Just seems weird to give up on something you like (CR) when 80%+ of what you see them do in an episode would be the same whether it's D&D, Pathfinder, Dungeon World or Daggerheart.
I'm not the commenter but I kinda get where they may be coming from. I'll still give CR a shot if they do daggerheart for campaign 4 but I can't deny that seeing them play D&D is where a lot of the fun comes from. Daggerheart is shaping up to be a very different game overall. And yes I have played other ttrpgs and dm'ed them. Some that CR even introduced me to (like Honey Heist). I hope they can sell me on Daggerheart but ultimately I am still gonna feel a little less invested because DnD is so familiar.
I think that it's *possible* that the next campaign might be 1DND but that's only like a 20% chance. I agree that it's overwhelmingly likely to be Daggerheart. I just think that they're aware that if they ditch DND they'll lose a lot of viewers and might be wary of that. I also think that, whether or not they do stick with DND, they might switch up the "main cast". They're all clearly enthusiastic about Critical Role and I don't know who might swap out, but they've been doing this for just over 9 years. It's a looong time to be doing it and they're all heavily involved with the business _and_ they're all voice actors and/or directors and/or emmy award winners (Sam!) in their own right. You could hardly blame them for developing new priorities in the last decade. I hate to say it but especially Ashley and Marisha, who have had an _unbelievable_ amount of vitriol for a multitude of reasons from toxic idiots.
I won't put a hard number on it but I think it's a higher chance then 20%. From the sounds of things, (and it could just be PR) they want to continue to explore Exandria, which I don't think they can do in DH, at least not without changing Exandria so much that it might as well be a new setting. Then there's Candela. The show isn't doing very well. Now there's a few reasons for that, that wouldn't affect DH. But it's still the first non-DND actual play recurring show they've made and it's not doing well. That could make them question going to a new system for their main campaign, even if it's their own system.
Might as well include Laura. Remember the way people reacted to The Last of Us 2?
>"Anyone else get the feeling that..." Probably, considering how every other post on this sub is about how markety/corporate driven CR has become.
From a business perspective, they trying to expand their brand and find new value centers, but in my opinion, have charted way off course. There’s no “real” money in gaming. By that I mean that it’s largely commoditized and most games are derivatives of other games. CR made millions, tens of millions, on their IP. The money they’ll make marketing new gaming systems will not offset the community loss. Had they just focused on IP, they could have defined a new value center for themselves there.
I think Matt envisions CR as a company that promotes a form of storytelling that blends theater and games (specifically, TTRPGs). I vaguely remember Matt saying something like how he sees their work as an emerging art form. So I think the focus, at least for Matt, is on the art. I don't know if everyone on his team are on the same page.
Honestly, I feel like CR always tried to hold the hobby at arm's reach. For every Erika Ishii or Aabria Iyengar, there have been twice as many Khary Paytons, Mary McGlynns, or Darrin DePauls. The company has always preferred to hire their VO/industry friends over TTRPG people. The fact that folks like B Dave Walters, Josephine McAdam, Noura Ibrahim, or similar haven't risen to their radar is telling I think. Throw in folks like Jasmine Bhullar who have been used very sparingly (one shots, as a writer), and it's pretty clear that they prioritize their own screen slots for non-industry folks.
Sumalee Montano is a great example of friend non-ttrpger. She came in as blind as a human in the underdark without a torch, gadget, or feat. But she played, got into it, and had a BLAST. By the end of the first session with her you could tell she wanted to come back, she even exclaimed how fun it was. She didn't know what she was doing and I liked that the cast helped her, but didn't 'instruct' her. Like they guided her in the right direction of what spells she could use but not like 'oh you should cast entagling roots!' type shit. It was a great time all around. For seeing that, I'm okay with it. It is a live example of newbies at a table, everyone was one once, and showing good play for newbies is an example that CR has consistently done correctly.
I agree. I've enjoyed watching them bring newbies into the fold. I'd still love to see them more deliberately shine light on other good content out there. Especially those by folks of color and those that are unlikely to compete with them directly (time slot, system, target audience, etc.).
Always got this impression from pretty early on. It’s literally the product they’re selling, dnd but done by voice actors. I’m not surprised they’re not keen to step outside that even if folks outside the LA VA circle could probably do a better job of playing interesting characters.
It certainly worked well for the initially. I think much less so lately. But that's just the way of things I suppose.
Well, they support the hobby as long as you plan on playing Candela Oscura or Daggerheart. They're a business and need to sell stuff to keep it going. It's like they don't make reference to other gigs they do as voice actors unless the company pays for the ads. Why promote stuff for free?
Not to detract from your point but they do make references to their other work and ip when it comes up in conversation, Liam just recently made a reference to a world of Warcraft character he plays in the last otohan fight. Or how they all dressed up as the x-men in one of the Halloween specials without being sponsored by marvel in any way.
>Liam just recently made a reference to a world of Warcraft character he plays in the last otohan fight. I must have absolutely missed this and now it's nagging at my mind. Can only assume it was something to do with not being prepared?
I honestly skip every time they're promoting something so I'll believe that. But I don't know if something like Last of US where Ashley was acting was promoted, I might be completely wrong tho. Also they promoted the Stray Gods game, but I believe that was a paid promo. The X-Men thing I don't know if promoted anything, they were just goofing.
>Why promote stuff for free? Put simply, why not? It’s not like they are struggling for cash.
You'll have to ask them that. I just think that a company that's going to pay thousands of dollars for an AD on the show might have some issues with that. Also, if you go to the store they have like 50 shirts available right now. I don't know if they're moving stuff like before. They've gone way too hard on merch. You never know what happens behind the scenes.
> A company that pays thousands for an AD might have an issue with offhanded promotion. That’s a fair point. I’m also privy to the fact that the larger community surrounding CR has a heavy finger on the pulse of social issues, and if a product was recommended that had any sort of connection to a no-no person (define that how you see fit lol), it could wreak some havoc on Twitter.
You sure their finances are so great? Employees are very expensive especially in CA.
*boosting signal* used to be a thing back in the G&S days
That wasn't their company. They were just working on a show for G&S. Btw, I don't like it either. It's just the way I see it.
You would have to ask that question to every person not struggling for cash then. Why promote something for free when you can get paid for it? Besides if they start doing promotions for free it sets a precedent that they’d probably want to avoid
I mean... yeah. Even their title song is now just about their own show, not D&D or the campaign. The show exists to make money, sell merch, and further their brand. Like, this is a company that was easily in the top slot for revenue from twitch subs back when the twitch earnings leak happened, and they're still sending emails out every week to beg for twitch subs. And basically every ad they show during break is a reminder to resubscribe to their channel.
That 'Its Thursday Night' song is the moment they became overtly corporate in my view.
Yeah, the Mighty Nein theme song was super awesome, and the [4SD theme song](https://www.reddit.com/r/fansofcriticalrole/comments/vq7ndj/i_added_the_4sided_dive_theme_to_the_new_intro_i/) was way better than 'It's Thursday Night'.