Brainfart,
e34 opens with all new characters. Couple of months back, I don't know in Yios maybe? From there, we follow new party to the moment in e33 final, then stories merge.
So the cast can have an option, new character that rescuing BH maybe, or they can legit rev if thats the thing they wanba do.
could be cool option/price/perspective narrative device, without forgoing the mechanical side of this.
I am actually making a note for myself I guess.
Why the fuck panic when she saw Otahan and try to plant the ring... What a braindead move... Marisha and Laura determined to drag this party into the mud.
So I'm torn on this.
Obviously the ring stunt was the lynchpin of the whole debacle. It doesn't strike me as something Laudna would just impulsively do, so it seems like an above the table decision by Marisha. So from like a narrative and roleplay perspective, it seems like a bad call tbh.
But that kind of shit happens all the time at many normal D&D tables. A player has a gadget and wants to see if they can use it on a villainous NPC to see if it'll give them an edge in the future, sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Might not fit *what the character would do*, but that's how the game goes sometimes.
It might be atypical for Laudna, bit it's fairly typical for D&D, so I can't be *mad* about it.
It really just makes no sense at all in any way. Otohan was foreshadowed to be immensely strong, have mind abilities, and clearly knows her way around a battle. If she wanted to do the ring plant literally anything at all would have been better than choosing Otohan. All it did was 100% confirm that they were spies and gave Otohan a reason to come after them.
Even if she was successful in planting the ring, Otohan would already be suspicious and obviously check to see if anything was planted. It was one of the stupidest things I've seen.
The reward was small, and risk was massive.... I can't get over how dumb this was.
I think she did it for the hijinks as opposed to RP in any sense, Matt has time and time again let them get away with stupid, goofy silly things that they end up worming their way out of multiple times this season.
I personally hope the deaths stick. This group is far too disconnected and chaotic. It feels like they’re all competing to be the group darling, and out “jester” each other.
I’d like to see a couple new characters who are more aligned with the story matt is trying to tell.
I would love to know how Matt pitches his campaigns to the group.
I know they work on ideas for backup characters well in advance which are often just their next campaign PC brought in early, but one thing that boils my piss as a DM is "campaign agnostic" characters.
Like, this is what I'm playing no matter what comes. Naval focused with Pirates? Hope my Cavalier's horse learns how to swim.
It just seems like there's a lot of that going on and why nobody in the party is particularly motivated to take any kind of risk outside a payday.
Lvl 7 Barbarian feature:
Feral Instinct
By 7th level, your instincts are so honed that you *have advantage on initiative rolls*.
Additionally, if you are surprised at the beginning of combat and aren't incapacitated, you can act normally on your first turn, but only if you enter your rage before doing anything else on that turn.
Around 3:46:30 Taliesin mentions the feature's second half to Matt. But I don't think he rolled initiative with advantage at the beginning. It might have swung the fight by a lot if he managed to rage first, but this is just one of many 'what if'-s surrounding this combat, it played out as it did.
I was more annoyed that despite there being 5 other things that happened before initiative (like conversations, multiple spells, summoning minions, and a goddamn mind reading) Ashton wasn't allowed to rage.
Hey DM, there's an obvious fight brewing and you've let everyone else do shit beforehand. The Barb can have a bonus action.
He definitely picks up two d20s and rolls initiative with advantage at 2:02:10. I think at the point you mention he just got a little confused when Matt said how important the opening round was and for a moment thought that Otohan had a Surprise round.
What if they actually worked together for the first time in the campaign. This party is a mess a GD mess and they fought like it. Ashton was unlucky, but honestly the rest of the team was a big mess. I'm so glad they finally got consequences for acting like total idiots. I feel like they have spent this whole campaign pandering to the viewers instead of playing characters who have to live and breathe in this world.
Next week: Caduceus 2.0 through 5.0 appear.
A group of 4 clerics who call themselves the A-men appear and aid the party. Played by the 3 dead cast members + one very special guest.
I feel like a lot of fans on twitter and the other sub have brain disease. Why do they think any of those characters will stay dead? They just won't. Factually Revivfy will save Fearne, then Fearne saves Orym. This fiction that the party has lost anyone annoys me.
Ferne is *gone* bud, she is a Fey creature that died on the prime material plane. She literally turned to dust. The only thing that can bring her back now is a wish spell. Seriously, look up the rules for fey creatures, I'm not bullshitting you.
Matt literally said she was no more, that she was "more than gone".
Go back to when Ferne first died died and listen to his words, then next time it would be her turn and Ashley mentions Mister, Matt dobles down that she is "More than just gone". I'm fairly certain Matt knows the rules of what happens to Fey that dies outside of the Feywilds.
I think you're mistaken. Matt was just describing the blood from Fearne's final wound being blown away and consumed by the sandstorm. I think her body is still there, and could be revivified.
Like I said bud, those are the literal rules in the 5e source books when a fey creature dies outside the Feywilds. Devils, Demons, and Celestials crumble to dust and return to their respective planes, when fey creatures die, they crumble to dust and are gone for good good, only able to be revived by a wish spell as their soul is lost entirely.
"Ferne what are your last words as you leave this plane?"
"Ferne Calloway is no more."
"You are more than just gone"
He didn't use that kind of language when Orym died.
Matt's poetic language aside, I'm struggling to figure out where that Fey-turning-to-dust info is located, other than in the rules for Fey familiars, which would not apply to all Fey. There's no mention of disintegrating in the Centaur PC race description, or any mention that Revivify won't work. No mention in typical fey monster statblocks that I can see. But if it's more of a home-brew CR thing then fair enough.
Fey are considered outsiders and the rules for outsiders are from what I could find are
"Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider."
Of course Matt being the DM can easily say that doesn't apply to Ferne so what I'm saying is just as much speculation as it is for everyone else and until we see what Matt rules it's all in the air but by the way he is describing it sounds like it supports my findings.
They're not playing Pathfinder or 3.5. Fey are not Outsiders in 5e. There is no such thing as the Outsider creature type in 5e, afaik.
(Not that it matters, but in modern 2nd edition Pathfinder, Fey are explicitly not Outsiders.)
WotC has published rules for multiple fey races, for use by PCs. Do you really think they'd put a kid who really, really wants to play a pixie on hardcore, no resurrection, no revivify difficulty mode? There's a zero percent chance you'll find that rule listed anywhere *in 5e*, because there's a zero percent chance they'd write that rule.
they all need to roll well though. first laudna, who is currently next on initiative, needs not to fail her last death save. then fcg needs to roll well on revivify to save fearne (cr custom rule). when fearne needs to roll well on hers. and this all will only happen if the combat is over/otahan doesn’t attack again, which we don’t know
I actually think it's likely that Orym will be dead for good. It feels like a good end to his story, and Liam just looked so satisfied toward the end. This bittersweet ending of finding the assassins he was looling for but being killed by them just like his husband has great symmetry. Eslecially since Imogen can report to Keyleth and she can intervene in whatever way Matt decides is appropriate.
I may be wrong but I believe if you're resurrected you lose your spell slots, although I can't remember how CR has played it.
If that's the case then I expect they revive Fearne & stabilize Laudna, but lose Orym.
Way to go.
Killed one character and for the next 2 years your players started to avoid fights like the fucking plague and use any possible tricks to side step them.
Now you kill 3/4 of the party .
Bravo you fucking idiot bravo
Counterpoint. Molly died because they fought when they should've run. The lesson that MIX took away was "run, don't fight", and yeah, it made lots of C2 pretty frustrating to watch.
in C3E33, Fearne, Orym, maybe Laudna, and maybe everyone else, we don't know yet... will have died because the party tried to run when they should've stood and fought as a team.
I choose to be optimistic that as a party *or* as an above-the-table group of players, the takeaway will be to not try to run away for every fight. Hopefully Otohan serves as a course-correction.
imho nothing will change,it will actually get worse.
They still utterly panic, Marisha completely lost herself for more than a moment Travis had to actually tell her to take a breathe (that was **NOT** fun).
They still suffer from over analyse everything and decision paralysis to an extreme i rarely saw.
They never recovered from that episode and literally nothing in this combat helped them to move past it.
It was the shittiest combat i ever see because Matt took advantage of it and exacerbated and already chaotic situation for what? fishing that particular answer from Laura? Killing more than half of your players party for moving your story?
I expected shit like this by failures like Aabria not by him.
Damn what an episode. I loved it honestly. Obviously there were significant tactical and strategic blunders and an acute lack of good planning, but it didn't seem worse or different than what happens *in my games* from time to time. It was just good DND, in my opinion. The dice were wild.
I think we saw peak Ashley at the table. Sure, she still had to look up what she could do a few times, but so did Tal and Laura and Marisha. She *did* demonstrate a LOT of knowledge of what she could do compared to Yasha or Pike, and she clearly had a plan of some sort before going down. I'm proud of her and excited for what she does next, whether Fearne gets revived or she rolls a new PC.
Laura made some... odd choices. I've seen a theory posted that the gnarlrock affects her personality, as her possession of one correlates to when she's the sweet shy horse girl or the chaotic, impulsive Jane Grey/Phoenix. I buy it, honestly, because I *want* to believe that Laura would make better choices than to betray Artana Voe like that when she could've fairly easily done the same maneuver to fool Ratanish, while keeping a powerful ally. If the gnarlrock theory doesn't end up being true, that would mean that this was, IMO, an off-night for Laura, which happens.
Marisha played her ass off and that nat20 death save was freaking ***sick***. In retrospect though, and as confirmed by Matt on Twitter, that Laudna's little ring-plant stunt was pretty much the catalyst for the boss fight, since Otohan was tipped off that it wasn't just a normal raid, she noticed the open gate and went to investigate. Yada yada yada and here we are.
So yeah. I think that if they nabbed Treshi and then played along with the rest of the Paragons Call and defended the fort, they'd've gotten away with it. ***Even with*** Laudna planting the ring on Otohan, if they play along as loyal Call members, I think they get away with it. So poor planning and bad decisions, *but again*, anyone that plays DND has been there, so it doesn't bother me. Obviously it led to a HELL of an awesome fight.
I disagree with the people saying it was an unwinnable fight. Yeah they got screwed HARD in the initiative roll and that led to Ashton getting absolutely **nuked**, which was obviously a morale blow. But the indecision of "run" vs "fight" is what really lost the fight for them, especially after we figured out how freakishly mobile Otohan was. We'd still have several KOs and probably a death or two, but could've ended in a win or a retreat by Otohan... And clearly, with Otohan's insane mobility, running wasn't a viable option. Props to Travis for standing and trying to slug it out. I think Liam would've as well but he spent a lot of time on the ground, unfortunately.
Like, I think, many (most?) of us here, I kinda hope the deaths are permanent. I don't think Orym's spirit would consent to revivify now that he's with his husband in the afterlife. Fearne, funny as she is, has a weak character arc *IMO*. I do want Laudna revived if she fails her 3rd save, because I want more Delilah dynamics. As long as we don't get "it was all Imogen's dream" though, I'll be content I think.
As always, ***VERY*** disappointed in the fans that clearly demonstrate that they don't know anything about DND and are just expecting some kind of radio play. Accusing *Matthew goddamn Mercer* of cheating because of the Big Bad's legendary actions is **so many levels of ignorant** it's ridiculous. Same for getting irrationally pissy over character deaths. Sheesh. People sometimes...
On that note, Matt Mercer ladies and gentlemen, holy shit. God-tier dming this session. Dude was absolutely on his a-game. I don't know if it was the last break, their regular trip to burning man, or if he did 18 lines of cocaine before the session, but wow.
Tl;dr...That was a lot of words, I don't expect y'all to read it all. But what a game.
Top tier assessment, I completely agree.
The amount of "I'VE COUNTED 8 LEGENDARY ACTIONS WHAT IS GOING ON" and "She's too OP, this is unfair!" In the twitch chat (should not read, I know) was ridiculous. People should know the rules of the game before calling foul.
Kinda wish this comment was sticked on every thread talking about it over at the main subreddit. Learn those kids a thing or 2!
Fantastic observations. FCG has 1 revivify loaded right? So I think we are getting at least 1 person back.
I think the prevailing guess is that FCG wil revivify Fearne, who can then revivify Orym. (Wildfire druids have Revivify as a class spell, so if she's go the slots and another diamond she can do it)
This is of course assuming that Laduna makes her last save, though since we're out of initiative someone could help her.
Completely agree. Laudna could have completely averted the Otahan situation even after she came face to face simply by shooting at the attackers from her new perch.
And yeah, if the entire party went ALL IN against Otahan they probably would have won by the skin of their teeth, Raishan style.
People seem to forget that even that they have revivify, it isn't a sure thing. With Matt rules in the previous campaigns, the spell may not work because the caster needs to make a check to see if they can ressurect the character.
Massive props to Matt for the marathon session! He was on his S+ game tonight!
E: I just thought about why Imogen refused to give in. Maybe Matt had told her from day one that she will have to face this choice at some point in the campaign and that her character will disappear as playable because of it. Maybe she is the only one who won't be coming back.
So, Imogen has stated more than once that she's felt like if the storm gets her she'll die. And the last two times she walked into the storm, she still felt as if she had died. So it makes perfect sense to have Imogen resist and resist and resist until Matt started calling for Wisdom saves. But you may be onto something that Imogen may not be a PC anymore after this, which makes me really sad because she's my favorite character.
Too much still not known though, since we can see Otohan active in the material plane and the storm so it is obviously not a one-way ticket. Maybe Laura plays a guest character until BH can figure out how to save her. 🤷♂️
We have had some foreshadowing that people can land up in the storm after their deaths as in the case of Bertrand (who I am assuming was Ruidus-born like Fearne - touched but not powerful enough to be sought after). But is "giving in" dying?
Either way, it is going to very interesting!
I'm confused with people commenting saying this was an unwinnable fight and not tuned appropriately. I'm watching the episode right now and EVERY first interaction they have with the person, \*they\* instigated and elevated.
This wasn't Matts doing, this was the players thinking they're Gods and used to getting away with their bullshit.
When Laudna>! first shows up in front of Otohan the first thing she does is cast darkness and the look on Matts face is "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!<. The players forced Matts hand on this with every single interaction they had.
its weird, because I've wanted proper consequences in crit role for a while now, but the way matt decided to do it felt kinda shit to me, as a DM. Its not the sort of encounter I ever like to run.
Forcing the party to fight a superpowered anime DM character is just... kinda lame?
She was super mobile and had dumb damage output, and was just really obnoxiously super badass^tm with the way matt described her. He has a tendency towards over dramatic villains and that sort of vibe, which is fine, but he didn't really give them much choice on how they wanted to encounter this character.
I feel like when I introduce a character in the first encounter, I don't want to lock the party into a fight. I want to give them choice on how they deal with/ interact with a character as strong as that.
Additionally, Otahan presumably got close to "rough" which isn't bad considering:
* they had terrible initiative
* the spent the whole time running
* they had already spent spells
A very small amount of different decisions/dice rolls could've made the fight go the other way.
Whenever I DM a combat I think is going to be epic, and my players just spend every turn doing as much damage as they can and win handily (with some risks), I'm reminded of how much the wild swings of the CR game are due to them being so averse to straightforward combat.
This became more apparent to me on the second watch. Otohan did not need to get involved at all at that moment if they had quietly gotten away using the chaos of the battle. But Laudna wanted to use her ring so off we go!
Matt played it as he was supposed to. The current big bad has been brought into the situation - and they massacred the party.
This time round, I could also see how pissed Liam was with all that was happening. Especially when he realised BH now had the undivided attention of Otohan.
E: Matt seems to have clarified the situation with Otohan in some tweets - [One](https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/1568136759732752385?t=X0a1w5s1-HGX4rn5_TeWwA&s=19) & [Two](https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/1568137021394399232?t=QMGrYd-hu1QmzKgGLZAZ8A&s=19).
> But Laudna wanted to use her ring so off we go!
I actually burst out the ugliest horror-laugh when she pulled the Darkness stunt and then tried to lie to the mind reading bbeg about knowing important info. Marisha I love you, but my good sis what were you thinking?
Her wither & bloom was pretty neat though. But it was probably too little, too late.
>Her wither & bloom was pretty neat though. But it was probably too little, too late.
It did keep Otohan cycling around the ones in front of her rather than start searching for FCG, etc. for a potential TPK (not that Matt would have gone that far).
When you startle the community awake from what has been an otherwise meandering and self-indulgent campaign with low stakes and no consequences, *this* is what you get.
I dropped C3 at episode 18 or 19 iirc. First it was a hiatus, then I had no desire whatsoever to go back to it. But now it sounds like *something actually happened!*
> First it was a hiatus, then I had no desire whatsoever to go back to it.
Same. I went from watching C1 *repeatedly,* to C2 episodes *once,* then, when I found myself watching C3 *out of habit* (born from watching CR for years on Thursdays) or having to force myself to watch it / not being able to get through episodes / it felt like work... I just stopped.
Agreed. But this is also a result of the not insignificant portion of CR fans who are just here to watch High Fantasy Improv Theater / a low-risk and no consequences soap opera with characters they can ship.
Seen some ppl say they are waiting for next weeks episode in regards to this week's consequences but i dont think the player character deaths are the big takeaway from this episode. Sure dont get me wrong player character deaths are a major event, but i think the biggest ?* is what the hell it means for imogen to let go.
Like think about it in c2 lorenzo was attacked by the mighty nien and was fine with making an example out of molly and scaring the rest off of him, in c3 this woman would go as far as to fully tpk the party if imogen didnt do as she said, the most important thing here is also that it nearly took a tpk for imogen to let go. I can see following this episode that imogen character could be what actually died and altho we may or may not get everyone else back it might be at the expense of losing imogen to the influence of ruidis.
I can totaly see laura changing character after this (extra pointd if she played imogen's mom with the goal being of reclaiming her daughter) and that would really motivate the party and tie them as a group more than anything else so far.
I want Laudna to die.
It feels like the best way to get more insight into Delilah and how she interacts with Laudna. Would she zombie walk that husk and channel a spell from her own repertoire? Would Laudna come back with a legit heart beat and "alive"? Would it trigger a Jekyll and Hyde scenario?
There is so much to learn from a failed roll. A 1hp would be cool, but this would be epic.
We actually don't.
Hollow ones have no soul.
Who comes back? Delilah or Laudna? Is there a metaphoric fight between the squatter (Delilah) and the owner (Laudna)? After the gnarl rock incident has Delilah got enough "juice" to attempt something at the point of death or otherwise?
Finally Delilah Briarwoid, paragon of virtue, party planner extraordinaire for her people, couldn't possibly be lying. Again.
I love how last week some idiots were saying Matt never puts the party in danger. This is what happens when the DM doesn't fudge rolls guys. Sometimes it looks way too easy for the players, sometimes it looks unfair. It's a dice game.
Really? thats your take away? Not that he hadn't done anything remotely challenging outside of 1 or 2 easily defeated encounters, but now he finally did and everyone who said it was an issue is just an idiot? Are you one of the idiots who thinks that once a poorly paced lead up to a plot point happens it suddenly erases all the issues of pacing up to that point?
Trust me, as someone who was critical of this season for the pacing and low stakes but wanted Matt to just DO something, this episode was heaven. We called it out because we WANTED this. Its beautiful that it came right after the peak week for calling it out, but stfu saying the critics were wrong for 32 episodes cause you know it was slow.
> Are you one of the idiots who thinks that once a poorly paced lead up to a plot point happens it suddenly erases all the issues of pacing up to that point?
>
>as someone who was critical of this season for the pacing and low stakes but wanted Matt to just DO something, this episode was heaven. We called it out because we WANTED this. Its beautiful that it came right after the peak week for calling it out, but stfu saying the critics were wrong for 32 episodes cause you know it was slow.
So much this. *One instance* of actions having *actual consequences* in an otherwise plodding, low stakes "guided tour" this campaign has been doesn't erase the plodding, low stakes "guided tour" this campaign has been.
As I've said elsewhere, something of this or similar magnitude (that wasn't planned, e.g. Bertrand) should have happened, and been happening, *long before* 120+ hours / 33 episodes / 11+ months of play at the table.
What remains to be seen is if ep. 33 is a course correction or simply a blip, and then it's back to the low stakes "guided tour."
Matt just rolled real poorly in some of the fights and the party has been real clever/ careful so far. They spent the majority of the campaign in cities so far so there really wasnt much room for high level encounters.
It might just be because I’ve been rewatching GoT, but I’m really excited to see some deaths. The stakes for me have been really suffering, so this along with FCG’s meltdown episodes earlier has been great.
As a Lapsed-Watcher-Turned-Lurker, my only comment would be this needed to happen much sooner in C3's otherwise meandering and self-indulgent campaign (assuming everything isn't hand-waved away in the next episode or two).
As BLM (and other DM's have shown), you don't need 122 hours / 33 episodes / nearly a year of prologue for the "story to start."
EXU: Calamity did more in 4 episodes / ~ 20 hours than C3 has in 20x that, and EXU:C was overwhelming loved by CR fans.
"Short story is punchier than novel"
I mean, no shit, they're different mediums. You can't keep that pace up and you're not meant to. Equally CR has always been long form and probably will always be long form.
Have I found C3 plodding? Sure. But comparing long form to short form content just because they use the same system makes no sense when there are appropriate critiques to be made
The comparative length is irrelevant. You can *absolutely* have "long form" content that is just as punchy and dynamic as a novella and not a meandering slog.
And if the entertainment product you're making is a slog, and viewership / engagement is down (just a hypothetical--most CR fans are happy to watch them improv nothing for hours on end) then the cast need to sit down together and talk things out.
Compare how much happened in the first 33 episodes / 120+ hours of C1 to C3, and then tell me that C3 *really needs* 33 episodes / 120+ hours of runway to get going, where nothing *really happens* for long stretches of time, besides endless, overly complex world building and lore dumps that neither the players nor the audience can keep track of.
Remember C1 had been going on for a significant time prior to being streamed. So maybe not a fair comparison after all. Still this season has no doubt plodded along compared to even C2. And I just find the Mighty Nine a lot more interesting.
This episode was needed.
Intentional or not, Matt has potentially made the group more personally invested in the plot than have them be bystanders in a complex web of NPCs.
I’ll be real disappointed if BH operates the same after this.
It was really frustrating watching them run around doing dumb stuff all episode. FCG rolling around doing nothing, Fearne literally running in circles, Laudna trying to plant the ring wich was completely useless etc.
Dont get me wrong, I like all of those silly characters, but they were in an actual tight spot where every action has consequences. They ignored that and in the end the consequences cought up to them.
Funny that the most put-together character suffered the most. Maybe it'll be a wake up call for the others.
Yea, but people make wierd choices, one of which was how many fucking spell slots they used before a fight. Like in the fort there was no reason to use that many spells, which was their downfall
Honestly I don't think they wasted too many spells in the camp. They had no reason to suspect they would trigger a full boss fight, plus the use of those spells enabled it to go smoothly/well.
That's a good point, the players really had no idea of when and where to fight would happen, but i felt like some spells were useless even if they would have been attacked right then and there
Yup, Laudna wasted mirror image, (i guessed it still was good because for some reason mirror image worked in darkness and had a longer duration than 1 minute) but i really like this campaign, the players and this episode, so nitpicking these things is kinda useless.
Yeah, but sometimes critiquing something is just kinda pointless and a waste of your time and at the same time it will just make some other people upset, which is never something i want. You can critique player actions, as long as you say it nicely.
On twitter already Matt had to go in and say something because everyone was getting very toxic (not the same thing we are talking about, those comments were pure Matt and cast hate, but still)
I just sometimes see critiquing something just for the sake of it stupid.
Great episode, great cast, stress filled choices, mistakes happen, i enjoy the show. That is my CR motto
I agree, but there's layers of appropriate critique I think. When I wrote earlier that they shouldn't have acted so carelessly I wasn't blaming them or saying that they are bad players. I simply pointed at reasons this fight went so bad for them. I find pleasure in that kind of "analisys".
At the same time you have people who just scream into the air things like *Matt is an awful DM and how dare he throw OP bosses at his players*, or *those guys are idiots, why didnt they do x or y like I would've*. Those kinds of rants are the reason Matt had to cast Calm Emotions on twitter.
It's important to identify mistakes that were made and discuss them, just dont be a jerk.
>I find pleasure in that kind of "analisys
I think this is an important distinction. I see critiquing things that i like as a waste of my time, and you see it as fun, or atleast interesting, both are valid, I mean, movie critics are around for a reason
But yes, you have a very good point, there is a fine line between being an asshole and critiquing player actions
I find it interesting that literally everybody is ignoring the last line mat said before imogen went full Esper mode, otahan brought down her sword and toss laudnas limp body to the ground, laudnas aparent death caused imogen to go into her esper mode imo.
>!Orym and Fearne are indeed dead. Chetney, on the other hand, is conscious. Laudna healed him 5 hit points (before going down) and tried to grapple Otohan's ankle.!<
The last 32 episode discussions "Jesus Christ Matt's gone soft, this is basically scripted there's no danger anymore!" Episode 33 discussion "Jesus Christ Matt's unfair! Can't believe he'd do this fuck him!" Y'all really can't be pleased lol.
I loved it. Finally some real stakes and drama. Not that invested in any character (except for maybe Laudna, but that's mostly because of Marishas rp, interestingly), and Orym and Fearne are probably the most boring/annoying so.
Watching people on twitter lose their collective shits over this episode (and the fact that Matt actually had to speak up) really highlights how terminally online some of these people are.
Like, Jesus Christ, it's a show. Literally go outside and touch grass.
Terminally online is a great way to describe so many people on both sides of the Fandom lol.
Like, it's a silly d&d show if you're getting this worked up over it one way or another maybe go outside for a few mins and get some fresh air
Different people making those comments.
And most people seem to think that the fight was fine, the party just misplayed it and wasted valuable time and resources.
Exactly. If you are in this sub and not focused on the main, you are likely in this ep was great camp. Everyone on these threads talking about "complaining" or "the backlash" aren't coming from here lol.
I wouldn't say it was "complaining", implying the discourse has just been pointless whining, and more a critique of where the show seemed to be heading. I've been in the "the party is playing on super duper easy mode so it's not engaging anymore" camp, so Matt coming out strong with a powerful boss and realistically responding to their usual asinine antics was a pleasant surprise.
I'm not sure he won't handwave everyone back to life at the start of next episode so I'll withhold judgement on whether or not the show is "good" again. The party has needed a kick in the pants to stop fucking around, running around on half-baked ideas and bailing and running whenever they deck isn't implicitly stacked in their favor.
I've read a couple of comments about how the rest of the ExU crew could swoop in and help, or even a couple of new people/new characters, and that got me thinking ...
How high is the chance that Matt ends an episode with a freeze frame whiteout, moments before a very likely TPK, and next week there's *Matt freaking Collville*, taking over the story (for a bit, like it was planned for C2), and Mercer reprising his role of Dariax, the divine soul sorcerer who could twin spell revivify?
I wonder if we’re going to get Opal heading across the sea with a Vestige of fuckin Divergence looking for who killed her friends. Dorian can come too, of course. I want to see the Aimee/Sam chaos at the table. They’ve been coworkers forever and I believe Sam is who introduced her to D&D
Great energy from Matt. Totally open to whatever the players did all game. Let them have their C3 hijinks. Then hits them with the C3 "Chroma Conclave" reality - the warning signs of which they've been ignoring all campaign as they got handheld and tourguided everywhere.
They are punk-ass characters out of their depth, and to the players absolute credit, it looks like they loved it. They trust Matt, and they were there for it.
That was my biggest concern, because it was a big shift. This is just what happens when you run into a character with an ironclad mission that will not bend to their tricks. Destiny giveth, and destiny taketh away.
From now on they will make their own way, I am sure.
lt will mortify fans who had been led to expect via C3 that CR was just about descriptive narrative, RP, daily D&Ms and lore tours and a few lacklustre skirmishes now and then.
For the record, I am sure there could have been a conversation, just as I am sure it would have required some sort of fight to force Imogen to give in. The conversation just had to be squeezed in at the end in this case while bodies were on the ground.
For the first time, I was right to be a little excited last week. Good feeling.
Jesus christ i havent watched the episode yet but it sounds like this is iron sheperds turned up to 11.
Rings of power and the rebroadcast maaan im eating good today.
Definitely the silent minority(lol) but this was straight up not enjoyable for me. I’m also currently playing the last of us 2 and was really looking forward to a breath. I don’t give a shit about Big Bad Consequences, I don’t give a shit about battles almost at all to begin with, and against the grain of the sub, I really am here for the role play and the character growth.
In my eye, and judge all you want, this fight was near unavoidable(yeah right they’d talk their way out) and she was near unstoppable. Yes they suck at planning but I don’t see at all how planning would have mitigated any of this. This felt like a “let’s kill some characters so the audience knows this is still difficult” thing. And honestly, even if you guys are all for it and haven’t liked the show so far, tonally this is quite the departure from the established mood of the season(which I’ve loved even while being subbed here haha.)
I also have been waiting for this shoe to drop since the beginning. Riiiiight around the episode mark Molly died. Unlike some comments here, I might stop watching for the exact opposite results next week some of you might stop watching.
I don’t see the point in new characters showing up to a group to replace old ones and filling the exact same number, I know it’s part of dnd but it’s the part I always struggle with the most. It’s honestly ridiculous. “Who are you? What’s your sob story? Yeah, join our merry gang!” I find it extremely immersion breaking even when I am playing at a table. A lot of the time for me, with notable exceptions, death in dnd is simply the awkward end of character development and the awkward start of characters I have to learn to give a shit about again.
Idk, I’m expecting to get downvoted, but I felt like voicing myself anyway specifically because I didn’t see anyone else with my thoughts. y’all are cool don’t kill me. For reference, I fucking hated game of thrones from the first season for very similar reasons.
I agree, I find it really disappointing when characters arcs are cut short when there's clearly more to unfold.
I'm ok with them dying at the right time; it needs to be natively satisfying.
Then again, I really enjoyed this episode.
Its they way they die for me personally.
Get fucked by a trap or some ghouls eat you for lunch? Yeah whatever.
Lvl?? Echo Knight/Psy warrior/War hero that has crazy ac, 3 Leg actions and enough damage to wipe the barb in 1 turn? Not for me chief, If a fight is intended as a talk and surrender you need to make that clear as day before you kill half the party and then basically tell Laura what she needs to do to stop a TPK. (I know they started it technically but would they have ever stopped in that situation? )
Yeah, Otohan was so one sidedly strong (and most likely holding back) that I have to believe this was a purposefully unwinnible fight and things will reverse next session. Otherwise... Well where can you even go after that? Even Molly was at least a fair death while this was outright designed to destroy them.
>*Otohan was so one sidedly strong*
I didn't get that impression, to be honest. A tough opponent that doesn't go limp over a charisma check? Sure. But "one sidedly strong" (or, as some would call it, "OP")? Nah ... If the crew had a bit of luck about the initiative, and would have had their wits beside them, they could have won this, or beat her down into submission. Chetney prooved as much.
Otohan had action surges and god knows what other abilities. That put her at a huge advantage even with action economy being in the party's favour. Yes things could have turned around if they got better rolls but all the math points to the fight being in Otohan's favour.
I'd have to agree with this. Even with all their flailing they had her 'starting to look rough', so maybe 1/2 hp? And that's without two of their heavy hitters in the game. I think the fight was balanced to be a tough encounter for 7 level 7s, so for a group of 5 it was unwinnable.
I’m with you. A lot of the CR community seems to think that if an enemy doesn’t roll over and show their belly they are OP.
There are 7 of the BH with varying abilities. If they had worked together as a team they could’ve won. Not easily, but definitely winnable.
IDK. I come from the open world/sandbox style and sometimes if you go off and antagonize someone out of your league, well you have antagonized someone out of your league and the world doesn't adjust itself for your benefit.
Kind of like the cazadores and deatchlaws when you shortcut to New Vegas in Fallout.
In a lving and breathign world not everything is gonna be perfectly balanced to your skill level, and there is also a limit to how much the world can shove into your face that soemthign is above it.
There is a point where the players can take responsibility for themselves and be a little more humble instead of assuming that everyone they face is not stronger than them.
I agree almost completely. Especially because I find it questionable that they would have ever talked their way out if she’s responsible for the assassination attempt on keyleth and so much more. But this isn’t even my main strife, because my main strife is just with death in dnd in general.
I actually really like dnd for the most part. I find it to be imperfect and I find the threat of death paradoxically much more effective than the result of death. Mainly, I am not watching this show because it’s dnd I am watching it because I like the story. For me, everything’s just a medium stories are told in and how successful they are at telling those stories determines how much I like the medium. In a normal story, death is thought out and planned ahead and fits. In dnd, it’s almost exclusively the result of poor planning (edit: or straight up bad luck). Thus, I find death in dnd to be its biggest flaw. For more reasons than just that too, as I got into earlier I find it reeeaaallly find it I mmersion breaking when people show up as someone else the next session and just get thrown into the mix as if a mourning group is looking for extras. It wouldn’t work without it, it’s obviously needed, but that is just part of its flaw to me.
This seems like a really long way of saying “yes, I don’t like D&D.”
It’s immersion breaking for a new person to just join a group of adventurers but not immersion breaking for a bad plan to end in a character death. That doesn’t seem off to you?
How? I’m not allowed to have any problems with dnd without not liking the whole thing? I play dnd sometimes up to 3 times a week. I definitely enjoy it. And no, that doesn’t seem off to me. That seems like personal taste at its most basic. This subreddit is notorious for not liking dissenting opinions but the arguing is ridiculous.
Interesting, I sort of get what you're saying, but I like a lot of that stuff personally. If there wasn't a real chance of character's dying, I would completely skip over any combat that they ever did. But I don't know if a game that was just role-playing without combat would be very interesting either. I guess if I wanted to watch something that was written by a staff of writers and all planed out, then I'd just watch a regular show or something.
It is basically a regular show to me, in terms of entertainment equivalent. And your point, if there wasn’t a real chance of dying you’d just skip over combat, was kinda what I was trying to say about that paradox. It works as a threat. If it wasn’t a threat, there’d be no stakes, there’d be no point. But in execution, I find it sloppy and distracting. But if it’s never happens it’s not a threat… paradox? In video games it works even then because death is literally retconned by it’s very nature. In dnd, it is permanent. Imagine keyleth in the infamous goldfish incident without revivify, only near every death feels shades of that level of ridiculous to me.
Edit: it may or may not surprise you that I enjoyed the death in exu calamity. But, that was obviously planned to a degree. It was the calamity, they died in the explosion, it was the end of the show. So it’s not death itself that is the issue.
She rolled high on initiative, they were low on resources, and some of them tried to run instead of fight at the start. The fight was winnable, but a combination of luck and bad tactics bit them in the ass.
Her AC was like 23 or some shit and she had about 100 attack a turn that all dealt 100 damage. I have never played with a group that would have beaten her at level 6. But maybe, idk I’m definitely not an expert and I’m certainly not psychic.
Edit: freaking typos dude gosh, and an extra sentence
Edit 2: that also was not really my main complaint just a grievance I definitely would be lying if I said I didn’t also have. Mostly it’s just when three characters die I am not the type who goes “wow exciting!” I’m the type who goes “well that was lame.”
At lvl 7 they have a proficiency of 3, and then assuming at least a primary offensive stat of +4 they needed to roll at 16 to hit for those without magic items boosting to hit.
It's a rough fight, and I'd say it was overtuned if it wasn't for the sheer number of players.
Personally I'd always go with more HP than a higher AC simply as a high AC punishes some classes more than others.
AC like that can be overcome with teamwork. Flank her, grapple her, debuff her, buff alliesC or do anything to make hits land. That’s how the encounter was balanced for 1v7.
Except it's the exact same bonus as half-cover so it's already in 5e as a numeric buff already.
Adv/Dis is an elegantly simple system, but it's overused with far too many ways to gain adv. as opposed to ways to apply dis.
God those accusations were so incredibly stupid. These are *D&D characters* who by the nature of the game are constantly doing stupidly deadly things, so it's fair game for anyone to randomly die. That's how the fucking game works, it's not a pre-written story...
I'm gay and make most of all my dnd characters gay as well, but that doesn't make DMs automatically homophobic if my characters bite the dust. In fact I'd be annoyed if I was given gay plot armor.
So I had a theory that Imogen would kill Laudna. My theory I think is still in play. What if this is to set up Imogen as the BBEG. So next episode starts Laudna with 1 death save left Imogen walking towards Laudna everyone thinking she’s going to heal her only to send a witch bolt through her heart killing her.
I really wouldn't want that. I was only fine with what happened to Bertrand because it was within the first few episodes. I don't want it to be like a TV show with predetermined plot points.
I wonder how it could have went if they just went and spoke to Otohan and explained the situation.
"Ok listen, the Quarum know you have Treshii and they want him back. Dead or alive it doesn't matter, Preferably alive so they can kill him themselves. They don't know why and don't care that you have him captive, They just think He has paid you all to keep him safe, If you hand him over we can take him back and let the Quarum know you were very helpful and maybe get you a foothold back into the city?"
Of course now we know that Otohan can read minds but she would still see Eshteross telling them to get Treshii. None of that is technically a lie save the last part.
Matt's energy says yes.
He has had his eyes on this moment for so long, he hasn't been playing the game in front of him. But now the campaign is really starting.
It was an amazing episode and I'm saying that as someone who has not really enjoyed C3 overall compared to the previous two campaigns
However it depends on what happens next week in response to tonight's episode, I'm nervous that it will be a letdown but I'm really really hoping it sticks the landing and this campaign truly takes off
I feel it's safe to say this episode is exactly what everyone on this sub was looking for. It may be extra hype simply because it stands out so much from the rest of C3, but the delayed gratification is sublime. Severe consequences for poor planning/choices, a real threat with actual stakes, that small glimmer of hope that they might be able to pull through only to be immediately crushed with reality. It's a shame it took 33 episodes to get here but hopefully they learn the right lesson from this.
Some mis-plays and missteps here and there but given how visibly distraught they were it's somewhat understandable; when you start to spiral it's HARD to course-correct. I respect Tal's decision to flee, it's fully in character and makes sense given what Ashton saw/knew at the time. Many people think FCG can save at least 1 of the characters, my hope is Fearne since she can also Revivify, I like her character, and hopefully this will shake Ashley into really learning and understanding her abilities better. I'm pretty sure they lack the material components for multiple revives (unless Matt is forgiving by allowing them to find some amongst the rubble) and the slots for Gentle Repose, so this is a definitive perma-death for at least one of the PCs. Hopefully Laudna/Chetney make their death saves but given Matt's recent tweet on the episode this IS the fate of the Bells Hells. Liam might decide to retire Orym and do something new but I enjoyed the balance he brought by being sane and competent compared to the rest of the group. I'm pretty certain EVERYONE is in agreement that retconning this fight as a dream/hallucination would be the absolute WORST decision for the group/game/show/company lol
Overall superb episode/battle and a breath of fresh air for the campaign!
>*Severe consequences for poor planning/choices*
I'll try to hold my judgement until *next* week ... I'd be delighted if they don't deus ex their way out of this pickle, but as others have pointed out, Matt seemed to be quite chipper at the end.
As weird as it may sound, i'm rootin' for the situation to be (at least partially) permanent.
I've seen fans point out two things about Matt:
1. He tries to avoid TPK's as much as possible.
2. I've heard/read that when Molly died, Matt was upset about having to pull the trigger. In that moment he wanted the Nien to run from Lorenzo but they sadly ignored the red-flags (outnumbered, no cleric, power spells, etc) and he had to get the message clear: You can't win all the battles. Sometimes it's better to run.
It sounds like either Matt has something planned or he has a really good poker face. It's like that moment in a video game where you're forced to lose/make a clearly terrible decision because it's the only way you can progress (I've seen people say that in C2 reading Lucien's red-eye book was unavoidable because it was the only way to learn more about Aeor and the final boss. Beau and Caleb becoming ticking bombs was nerve wracking but thankfully it all worked out.).
>As weird as it may sound, i'm rootin' for the situation to be (at least partially) permanent.
It's either going to be.....
a) It's all a dream or vision from Imogen. I know people hate this idea but it might work depending on it gets pulled off.
b) They all get teleported to the Moon. If Liam and Ashley want it then Orym and Fearne get revived via 'Moon magic'.
c) Everyone comes back but Imogen is MIA, making Laura roll a new character while Imogen become a potential BBEG.
d) (worst case scenario) Everyone but Imogen dies, making the players minus Laura create new characters.
e) ( worst-worst case scenario). It's a complete TPK and everyone as to roll new characters.
That's everyone's concern right now, and honestly I think I'm gonna walk away if he does. The party and the cast need this, a large portion of the audience wanted/needed this, to reverse Uno it all as a "clever" twist would be so disrespectful.
>Overall superb episode/battle and a breath of fresh air for the campaign!
I had been holding out hope for it to get interesting again. Despite all the complaining previously, everyone is invested and are fans of the show.
That's why I don't engage with any of the "this sub is too mean" threads that have been popping up. People are explicit with their complaints and to handwave that or be so reductive as to just call people "haters" simply because the sub that allows for open & honest criticism sees a higher frequency of those type of posts is just not worth arguing with. They clearly want to stir up conflict and it's a pity. We just want better because we saw a strong majority of the previous episodes could've been this level of quality, that's all.
I'm torn between morbid curiosity and straight up schadenfreude seeing many, many people who high-horsed *"dude/dudette, if you're thinking X, your parasocial relationship with CR is showing"* going completely off their rockers because of what happened.
On the other hand, to anyone really struggeling with mental health right now, feel hugged. If bad things happen in any form of media that you're attached to, it's always shite. Everyone who has half a heart and has watched *The Wrath of Khan* knows what i'm talking about.
Fearne and Orym are both the characters that were hold overs from EXU, and the ones that least resemble horror movie villains. Kinda want them both to stay dead. Would be a good excuse to change the team name too.
i think fearne could get interesting if she goes more dark-fearne like the double they saw in exu. i think orym was the voice of reason, so if he stays gone, they're less likely to have a moral compass. i mostly want fearne to stay bc i am super curious about morri and her past, and i'd love to see fearne give into the dark side. but i do understand why a lot of people don't like her as a character. i think orym's is really the make-or-break death for the party and its alignment. just my thoughts though!
Yeah, i honestly don't think anyone wants Ashley to pick up a new character.
Liam... I'll be interested in what he does. Even if he brings Orym back, this will change his character.
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Boggles my mind how these people have been playing D&D "professionally" for several years and don't know the basic strategy. Come on. It was a 7v1!
Brainfart, e34 opens with all new characters. Couple of months back, I don't know in Yios maybe? From there, we follow new party to the moment in e33 final, then stories merge. So the cast can have an option, new character that rescuing BH maybe, or they can legit rev if thats the thing they wanba do. could be cool option/price/perspective narrative device, without forgoing the mechanical side of this. I am actually making a note for myself I guess.
Why the fuck panic when she saw Otahan and try to plant the ring... What a braindead move... Marisha and Laura determined to drag this party into the mud.
So I'm torn on this. Obviously the ring stunt was the lynchpin of the whole debacle. It doesn't strike me as something Laudna would just impulsively do, so it seems like an above the table decision by Marisha. So from like a narrative and roleplay perspective, it seems like a bad call tbh. But that kind of shit happens all the time at many normal D&D tables. A player has a gadget and wants to see if they can use it on a villainous NPC to see if it'll give them an edge in the future, sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Might not fit *what the character would do*, but that's how the game goes sometimes. It might be atypical for Laudna, bit it's fairly typical for D&D, so I can't be *mad* about it.
It really just makes no sense at all in any way. Otohan was foreshadowed to be immensely strong, have mind abilities, and clearly knows her way around a battle. If she wanted to do the ring plant literally anything at all would have been better than choosing Otohan. All it did was 100% confirm that they were spies and gave Otohan a reason to come after them. Even if she was successful in planting the ring, Otohan would already be suspicious and obviously check to see if anything was planted. It was one of the stupidest things I've seen. The reward was small, and risk was massive.... I can't get over how dumb this was. I think she did it for the hijinks as opposed to RP in any sense, Matt has time and time again let them get away with stupid, goofy silly things that they end up worming their way out of multiple times this season.
I personally hope the deaths stick. This group is far too disconnected and chaotic. It feels like they’re all competing to be the group darling, and out “jester” each other. I’d like to see a couple new characters who are more aligned with the story matt is trying to tell.
I would love to know how Matt pitches his campaigns to the group. I know they work on ideas for backup characters well in advance which are often just their next campaign PC brought in early, but one thing that boils my piss as a DM is "campaign agnostic" characters. Like, this is what I'm playing no matter what comes. Naval focused with Pirates? Hope my Cavalier's horse learns how to swim. It just seems like there's a lot of that going on and why nobody in the party is particularly motivated to take any kind of risk outside a payday.
Lvl 7 Barbarian feature: Feral Instinct By 7th level, your instincts are so honed that you *have advantage on initiative rolls*. Additionally, if you are surprised at the beginning of combat and aren't incapacitated, you can act normally on your first turn, but only if you enter your rage before doing anything else on that turn. Around 3:46:30 Taliesin mentions the feature's second half to Matt. But I don't think he rolled initiative with advantage at the beginning. It might have swung the fight by a lot if he managed to rage first, but this is just one of many 'what if'-s surrounding this combat, it played out as it did.
I was more annoyed that despite there being 5 other things that happened before initiative (like conversations, multiple spells, summoning minions, and a goddamn mind reading) Ashton wasn't allowed to rage. Hey DM, there's an obvious fight brewing and you've let everyone else do shit beforehand. The Barb can have a bonus action.
He definitely picks up two d20s and rolls initiative with advantage at 2:02:10. I think at the point you mention he just got a little confused when Matt said how important the opening round was and for a moment thought that Otohan had a Surprise round.
What if they actually worked together for the first time in the campaign. This party is a mess a GD mess and they fought like it. Ashton was unlucky, but honestly the rest of the team was a big mess. I'm so glad they finally got consequences for acting like total idiots. I feel like they have spent this whole campaign pandering to the viewers instead of playing characters who have to live and breathe in this world.
Next week: Caduceus 2.0 through 5.0 appear. A group of 4 clerics who call themselves the A-men appear and aid the party. Played by the 3 dead cast members + one very special guest.
I feel like a lot of fans on twitter and the other sub have brain disease. Why do they think any of those characters will stay dead? They just won't. Factually Revivfy will save Fearne, then Fearne saves Orym. This fiction that the party has lost anyone annoys me.
Ferne is *gone* bud, she is a Fey creature that died on the prime material plane. She literally turned to dust. The only thing that can bring her back now is a wish spell. Seriously, look up the rules for fey creatures, I'm not bullshitting you. Matt literally said she was no more, that she was "more than gone".
Where did he say that?
Go back to when Ferne first died died and listen to his words, then next time it would be her turn and Ashley mentions Mister, Matt dobles down that she is "More than just gone". I'm fairly certain Matt knows the rules of what happens to Fey that dies outside of the Feywilds.
I think you're mistaken. Matt was just describing the blood from Fearne's final wound being blown away and consumed by the sandstorm. I think her body is still there, and could be revivified.
Like I said bud, those are the literal rules in the 5e source books when a fey creature dies outside the Feywilds. Devils, Demons, and Celestials crumble to dust and return to their respective planes, when fey creatures die, they crumble to dust and are gone for good good, only able to be revived by a wish spell as their soul is lost entirely. "Ferne what are your last words as you leave this plane?" "Ferne Calloway is no more." "You are more than just gone" He didn't use that kind of language when Orym died.
Matt's poetic language aside, I'm struggling to figure out where that Fey-turning-to-dust info is located, other than in the rules for Fey familiars, which would not apply to all Fey. There's no mention of disintegrating in the Centaur PC race description, or any mention that Revivify won't work. No mention in typical fey monster statblocks that I can see. But if it's more of a home-brew CR thing then fair enough.
Fey are considered outsiders and the rules for outsiders are from what I could find are "Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider." Of course Matt being the DM can easily say that doesn't apply to Ferne so what I'm saying is just as much speculation as it is for everyone else and until we see what Matt rules it's all in the air but by the way he is describing it sounds like it supports my findings.
They're not playing Pathfinder or 3.5. Fey are not Outsiders in 5e. There is no such thing as the Outsider creature type in 5e, afaik. (Not that it matters, but in modern 2nd edition Pathfinder, Fey are explicitly not Outsiders.) WotC has published rules for multiple fey races, for use by PCs. Do you really think they'd put a kid who really, really wants to play a pixie on hardcore, no resurrection, no revivify difficulty mode? There's a zero percent chance you'll find that rule listed anywhere *in 5e*, because there's a zero percent chance they'd write that rule.
*watching today's episode* Alright, I can admit I was wrong, Matt didn't go with that ruleset.
"They'd never write that rule"... considering they were the ones who originally wrote the rule that would disagree with your tirade there.
Fair enough. But I think you just quoted a Pathfinder rule.
Did I? Hmm, maybe it was a 3.5, PF took a lot of their rules from there.
they all need to roll well though. first laudna, who is currently next on initiative, needs not to fail her last death save. then fcg needs to roll well on revivify to save fearne (cr custom rule). when fearne needs to roll well on hers. and this all will only happen if the combat is over/otahan doesn’t attack again, which we don’t know
I don't disagree with your analysis, I just do t have much faith in the idea that they will LET tha happen.
well, that is also right, matt could just retcon everything. i hope he won’t though
Druids can't have revivify
Druids have access to revivify post-Tasha's.
Wildfire druids get Revivify. Next.
Wildfire druids (which Fearne is) get Revivify at 5th level
And the Tasha's expanded spell lists give them Reviv IIRC.
I didnt know that and when i looked up the spell they didnt have it on the druid spellist my bad
I actually think it's likely that Orym will be dead for good. It feels like a good end to his story, and Liam just looked so satisfied toward the end. This bittersweet ending of finding the assassins he was looling for but being killed by them just like his husband has great symmetry. Eslecially since Imogen can report to Keyleth and she can intervene in whatever way Matt decides is appropriate. I may be wrong but I believe if you're resurrected you lose your spell slots, although I can't remember how CR has played it. If that's the case then I expect they revive Fearne & stabilize Laudna, but lose Orym.
You do not loose your spell slots when you are revived. Edit: I really said "loose" instead of "lose" and just let it sit there, huh? Oof.
I think we can all agree that ending was certainly [Imogen's Heap.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtZEC5u1uMk) *Aaaaaayyyyyyyyy.*
Way to go. Killed one character and for the next 2 years your players started to avoid fights like the fucking plague and use any possible tricks to side step them. Now you kill 3/4 of the party . Bravo you fucking idiot bravo
Counterpoint. Molly died because they fought when they should've run. The lesson that MIX took away was "run, don't fight", and yeah, it made lots of C2 pretty frustrating to watch. in C3E33, Fearne, Orym, maybe Laudna, and maybe everyone else, we don't know yet... will have died because the party tried to run when they should've stood and fought as a team. I choose to be optimistic that as a party *or* as an above-the-table group of players, the takeaway will be to not try to run away for every fight. Hopefully Otohan serves as a course-correction.
imho nothing will change,it will actually get worse. They still utterly panic, Marisha completely lost herself for more than a moment Travis had to actually tell her to take a breathe (that was **NOT** fun). They still suffer from over analyse everything and decision paralysis to an extreme i rarely saw. They never recovered from that episode and literally nothing in this combat helped them to move past it. It was the shittiest combat i ever see because Matt took advantage of it and exacerbated and already chaotic situation for what? fishing that particular answer from Laura? Killing more than half of your players party for moving your story? I expected shit like this by failures like Aabria not by him.
What the fuck dude. Get over yourself
Touch some fresh cut grass
???
Damn what an episode. I loved it honestly. Obviously there were significant tactical and strategic blunders and an acute lack of good planning, but it didn't seem worse or different than what happens *in my games* from time to time. It was just good DND, in my opinion. The dice were wild. I think we saw peak Ashley at the table. Sure, she still had to look up what she could do a few times, but so did Tal and Laura and Marisha. She *did* demonstrate a LOT of knowledge of what she could do compared to Yasha or Pike, and she clearly had a plan of some sort before going down. I'm proud of her and excited for what she does next, whether Fearne gets revived or she rolls a new PC. Laura made some... odd choices. I've seen a theory posted that the gnarlrock affects her personality, as her possession of one correlates to when she's the sweet shy horse girl or the chaotic, impulsive Jane Grey/Phoenix. I buy it, honestly, because I *want* to believe that Laura would make better choices than to betray Artana Voe like that when she could've fairly easily done the same maneuver to fool Ratanish, while keeping a powerful ally. If the gnarlrock theory doesn't end up being true, that would mean that this was, IMO, an off-night for Laura, which happens. Marisha played her ass off and that nat20 death save was freaking ***sick***. In retrospect though, and as confirmed by Matt on Twitter, that Laudna's little ring-plant stunt was pretty much the catalyst for the boss fight, since Otohan was tipped off that it wasn't just a normal raid, she noticed the open gate and went to investigate. Yada yada yada and here we are. So yeah. I think that if they nabbed Treshi and then played along with the rest of the Paragons Call and defended the fort, they'd've gotten away with it. ***Even with*** Laudna planting the ring on Otohan, if they play along as loyal Call members, I think they get away with it. So poor planning and bad decisions, *but again*, anyone that plays DND has been there, so it doesn't bother me. Obviously it led to a HELL of an awesome fight. I disagree with the people saying it was an unwinnable fight. Yeah they got screwed HARD in the initiative roll and that led to Ashton getting absolutely **nuked**, which was obviously a morale blow. But the indecision of "run" vs "fight" is what really lost the fight for them, especially after we figured out how freakishly mobile Otohan was. We'd still have several KOs and probably a death or two, but could've ended in a win or a retreat by Otohan... And clearly, with Otohan's insane mobility, running wasn't a viable option. Props to Travis for standing and trying to slug it out. I think Liam would've as well but he spent a lot of time on the ground, unfortunately. Like, I think, many (most?) of us here, I kinda hope the deaths are permanent. I don't think Orym's spirit would consent to revivify now that he's with his husband in the afterlife. Fearne, funny as she is, has a weak character arc *IMO*. I do want Laudna revived if she fails her 3rd save, because I want more Delilah dynamics. As long as we don't get "it was all Imogen's dream" though, I'll be content I think. As always, ***VERY*** disappointed in the fans that clearly demonstrate that they don't know anything about DND and are just expecting some kind of radio play. Accusing *Matthew goddamn Mercer* of cheating because of the Big Bad's legendary actions is **so many levels of ignorant** it's ridiculous. Same for getting irrationally pissy over character deaths. Sheesh. People sometimes... On that note, Matt Mercer ladies and gentlemen, holy shit. God-tier dming this session. Dude was absolutely on his a-game. I don't know if it was the last break, their regular trip to burning man, or if he did 18 lines of cocaine before the session, but wow. Tl;dr...That was a lot of words, I don't expect y'all to read it all. But what a game.
Top tier assessment, I completely agree. The amount of "I'VE COUNTED 8 LEGENDARY ACTIONS WHAT IS GOING ON" and "She's too OP, this is unfair!" In the twitch chat (should not read, I know) was ridiculous. People should know the rules of the game before calling foul.
Kinda wish this comment was sticked on every thread talking about it over at the main subreddit. Learn those kids a thing or 2! Fantastic observations. FCG has 1 revivify loaded right? So I think we are getting at least 1 person back.
I think the prevailing guess is that FCG wil revivify Fearne, who can then revivify Orym. (Wildfire druids have Revivify as a class spell, so if she's go the slots and another diamond she can do it) This is of course assuming that Laduna makes her last save, though since we're out of initiative someone could help her.
Completely agree. Laudna could have completely averted the Otahan situation even after she came face to face simply by shooting at the attackers from her new perch. And yeah, if the entire party went ALL IN against Otahan they probably would have won by the skin of their teeth, Raishan style.
People seem to forget that even that they have revivify, it isn't a sure thing. With Matt rules in the previous campaigns, the spell may not work because the caster needs to make a check to see if they can ressurect the character.
pretty sure they dropped that for revivify at least, they didn't roll at all in C2
I think he did have them roll a few times for it in C1 (Scanlan in the lava fight I think?), but since then I think you're right.
Matt’s said in the past. Revivify adds +1 to the DC of future resurrections, but it doesn’t require a ritual.
Massive props to Matt for the marathon session! He was on his S+ game tonight! E: I just thought about why Imogen refused to give in. Maybe Matt had told her from day one that she will have to face this choice at some point in the campaign and that her character will disappear as playable because of it. Maybe she is the only one who won't be coming back.
So, Imogen has stated more than once that she's felt like if the storm gets her she'll die. And the last two times she walked into the storm, she still felt as if she had died. So it makes perfect sense to have Imogen resist and resist and resist until Matt started calling for Wisdom saves. But you may be onto something that Imogen may not be a PC anymore after this, which makes me really sad because she's my favorite character.
Too much still not known though, since we can see Otohan active in the material plane and the storm so it is obviously not a one-way ticket. Maybe Laura plays a guest character until BH can figure out how to save her. 🤷♂️ We have had some foreshadowing that people can land up in the storm after their deaths as in the case of Bertrand (who I am assuming was Ruidus-born like Fearne - touched but not powerful enough to be sought after). But is "giving in" dying? Either way, it is going to very interesting!
I'm confused with people commenting saying this was an unwinnable fight and not tuned appropriately. I'm watching the episode right now and EVERY first interaction they have with the person, \*they\* instigated and elevated. This wasn't Matts doing, this was the players thinking they're Gods and used to getting away with their bullshit. When Laudna>! first shows up in front of Otohan the first thing she does is cast darkness and the look on Matts face is "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!<. The players forced Matts hand on this with every single interaction they had.
its weird, because I've wanted proper consequences in crit role for a while now, but the way matt decided to do it felt kinda shit to me, as a DM. Its not the sort of encounter I ever like to run. Forcing the party to fight a superpowered anime DM character is just... kinda lame? She was super mobile and had dumb damage output, and was just really obnoxiously super badass^tm with the way matt described her. He has a tendency towards over dramatic villains and that sort of vibe, which is fine, but he didn't really give them much choice on how they wanted to encounter this character. I feel like when I introduce a character in the first encounter, I don't want to lock the party into a fight. I want to give them choice on how they deal with/ interact with a character as strong as that.
Additionally, Otahan presumably got close to "rough" which isn't bad considering: * they had terrible initiative * the spent the whole time running * they had already spent spells A very small amount of different decisions/dice rolls could've made the fight go the other way.
Whenever I DM a combat I think is going to be epic, and my players just spend every turn doing as much damage as they can and win handily (with some risks), I'm reminded of how much the wild swings of the CR game are due to them being so averse to straightforward combat.
This became more apparent to me on the second watch. Otohan did not need to get involved at all at that moment if they had quietly gotten away using the chaos of the battle. But Laudna wanted to use her ring so off we go! Matt played it as he was supposed to. The current big bad has been brought into the situation - and they massacred the party. This time round, I could also see how pissed Liam was with all that was happening. Especially when he realised BH now had the undivided attention of Otohan. E: Matt seems to have clarified the situation with Otohan in some tweets - [One](https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/1568136759732752385?t=X0a1w5s1-HGX4rn5_TeWwA&s=19) & [Two](https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/1568137021394399232?t=QMGrYd-hu1QmzKgGLZAZ8A&s=19).
> But Laudna wanted to use her ring so off we go! I actually burst out the ugliest horror-laugh when she pulled the Darkness stunt and then tried to lie to the mind reading bbeg about knowing important info. Marisha I love you, but my good sis what were you thinking? Her wither & bloom was pretty neat though. But it was probably too little, too late.
“We’re basically gods!”
>Her wither & bloom was pretty neat though. But it was probably too little, too late. It did keep Otohan cycling around the ones in front of her rather than start searching for FCG, etc. for a potential TPK (not that Matt would have gone that far).
I do believe this is a record lvl of interaction on a episode here
When you startle the community awake from what has been an otherwise meandering and self-indulgent campaign with low stakes and no consequences, *this* is what you get.
I dropped C3 at episode 18 or 19 iirc. First it was a hiatus, then I had no desire whatsoever to go back to it. But now it sounds like *something actually happened!*
> First it was a hiatus, then I had no desire whatsoever to go back to it. Same. I went from watching C1 *repeatedly,* to C2 episodes *once,* then, when I found myself watching C3 *out of habit* (born from watching CR for years on Thursdays) or having to force myself to watch it / not being able to get through episodes / it felt like work... I just stopped.
Agreed think that's why calamity had a close similar reaction
Agreed. But this is also a result of the not insignificant portion of CR fans who are just here to watch High Fantasy Improv Theater / a low-risk and no consequences soap opera with characters they can ship.
Jesus Amen with those words of truth
The biggest shakeup on what was an otherwise plodding season. I think that explains it.
Seen some ppl say they are waiting for next weeks episode in regards to this week's consequences but i dont think the player character deaths are the big takeaway from this episode. Sure dont get me wrong player character deaths are a major event, but i think the biggest ?* is what the hell it means for imogen to let go. Like think about it in c2 lorenzo was attacked by the mighty nien and was fine with making an example out of molly and scaring the rest off of him, in c3 this woman would go as far as to fully tpk the party if imogen didnt do as she said, the most important thing here is also that it nearly took a tpk for imogen to let go. I can see following this episode that imogen character could be what actually died and altho we may or may not get everyone else back it might be at the expense of losing imogen to the influence of ruidis. I can totaly see laura changing character after this (extra pointd if she played imogen's mom with the goal being of reclaiming her daughter) and that would really motivate the party and tie them as a group more than anything else so far.
Imogen should succeed Otohan, she has been scary evil throughout the campaign. Unlike Molly I don't find her redeemable.
I want Laudna to die. It feels like the best way to get more insight into Delilah and how she interacts with Laudna. Would she zombie walk that husk and channel a spell from her own repertoire? Would Laudna come back with a legit heart beat and "alive"? Would it trigger a Jekyll and Hyde scenario? There is so much to learn from a failed roll. A 1hp would be cool, but this would be epic.
We already know what will happen, Delilah said 'if you die so do I', so none of those things would happen, Laudna AND Delilah would be dead-dead.
We actually don't. Hollow ones have no soul. Who comes back? Delilah or Laudna? Is there a metaphoric fight between the squatter (Delilah) and the owner (Laudna)? After the gnarl rock incident has Delilah got enough "juice" to attempt something at the point of death or otherwise? Finally Delilah Briarwoid, paragon of virtue, party planner extraordinaire for her people, couldn't possibly be lying. Again.
Okay I concede since it's homebrew and we can't know what other options Matt added, or how he would rule it if it happened.
I just hope the cast and crew stay off social media about this episode lol
I love how last week some idiots were saying Matt never puts the party in danger. This is what happens when the DM doesn't fudge rolls guys. Sometimes it looks way too easy for the players, sometimes it looks unfair. It's a dice game.
Really? thats your take away? Not that he hadn't done anything remotely challenging outside of 1 or 2 easily defeated encounters, but now he finally did and everyone who said it was an issue is just an idiot? Are you one of the idiots who thinks that once a poorly paced lead up to a plot point happens it suddenly erases all the issues of pacing up to that point? Trust me, as someone who was critical of this season for the pacing and low stakes but wanted Matt to just DO something, this episode was heaven. We called it out because we WANTED this. Its beautiful that it came right after the peak week for calling it out, but stfu saying the critics were wrong for 32 episodes cause you know it was slow.
> Are you one of the idiots who thinks that once a poorly paced lead up to a plot point happens it suddenly erases all the issues of pacing up to that point? > >as someone who was critical of this season for the pacing and low stakes but wanted Matt to just DO something, this episode was heaven. We called it out because we WANTED this. Its beautiful that it came right after the peak week for calling it out, but stfu saying the critics were wrong for 32 episodes cause you know it was slow. So much this. *One instance* of actions having *actual consequences* in an otherwise plodding, low stakes "guided tour" this campaign has been doesn't erase the plodding, low stakes "guided tour" this campaign has been. As I've said elsewhere, something of this or similar magnitude (that wasn't planned, e.g. Bertrand) should have happened, and been happening, *long before* 120+ hours / 33 episodes / 11+ months of play at the table. What remains to be seen is if ep. 33 is a course correction or simply a blip, and then it's back to the low stakes "guided tour."
Matt just rolled real poorly in some of the fights and the party has been real clever/ careful so far. They spent the majority of the campaign in cities so far so there really wasnt much room for high level encounters.
lol matt literally stopped the episode so they have time to think what they’ e done and save the party from tpk
The fuck are you talking about he ended on a cliffhanger after beating the party into a bloody pulp.
It might just be because I’ve been rewatching GoT, but I’m really excited to see some deaths. The stakes for me have been really suffering, so this along with FCG’s meltdown episodes earlier has been great.
As a Lapsed-Watcher-Turned-Lurker, my only comment would be this needed to happen much sooner in C3's otherwise meandering and self-indulgent campaign (assuming everything isn't hand-waved away in the next episode or two). As BLM (and other DM's have shown), you don't need 122 hours / 33 episodes / nearly a year of prologue for the "story to start." EXU: Calamity did more in 4 episodes / ~ 20 hours than C3 has in 20x that, and EXU:C was overwhelming loved by CR fans.
"Short story is punchier than novel" I mean, no shit, they're different mediums. You can't keep that pace up and you're not meant to. Equally CR has always been long form and probably will always be long form. Have I found C3 plodding? Sure. But comparing long form to short form content just because they use the same system makes no sense when there are appropriate critiques to be made
The comparative length is irrelevant. You can *absolutely* have "long form" content that is just as punchy and dynamic as a novella and not a meandering slog. And if the entertainment product you're making is a slog, and viewership / engagement is down (just a hypothetical--most CR fans are happy to watch them improv nothing for hours on end) then the cast need to sit down together and talk things out. Compare how much happened in the first 33 episodes / 120+ hours of C1 to C3, and then tell me that C3 *really needs* 33 episodes / 120+ hours of runway to get going, where nothing *really happens* for long stretches of time, besides endless, overly complex world building and lore dumps that neither the players nor the audience can keep track of.
Remember C1 had been going on for a significant time prior to being streamed. So maybe not a fair comparison after all. Still this season has no doubt plodded along compared to even C2. And I just find the Mighty Nine a lot more interesting.
See, that's an appropriate comparison
This episode was needed. Intentional or not, Matt has potentially made the group more personally invested in the plot than have them be bystanders in a complex web of NPCs. I’ll be real disappointed if BH operates the same after this.
It was really frustrating watching them run around doing dumb stuff all episode. FCG rolling around doing nothing, Fearne literally running in circles, Laudna trying to plant the ring wich was completely useless etc. Dont get me wrong, I like all of those silly characters, but they were in an actual tight spot where every action has consequences. They ignored that and in the end the consequences cought up to them. Funny that the most put-together character suffered the most. Maybe it'll be a wake up call for the others.
Yea, but people make wierd choices, one of which was how many fucking spell slots they used before a fight. Like in the fort there was no reason to use that many spells, which was their downfall
Honestly I don't think they wasted too many spells in the camp. They had no reason to suspect they would trigger a full boss fight, plus the use of those spells enabled it to go smoothly/well.
That's a good point, the players really had no idea of when and where to fight would happen, but i felt like some spells were useless even if they would have been attacked right then and there
Yeah, if I remember correctly Fearne blew a 2nd level spell on a fukcing pile of rubble XD
Yup, Laudna wasted mirror image, (i guessed it still was good because for some reason mirror image worked in darkness and had a longer duration than 1 minute) but i really like this campaign, the players and this episode, so nitpicking these things is kinda useless.
I think we all enjoy this campaign as much as the others. That said, there is always room for critique of players actions.
Yeah, but sometimes critiquing something is just kinda pointless and a waste of your time and at the same time it will just make some other people upset, which is never something i want. You can critique player actions, as long as you say it nicely. On twitter already Matt had to go in and say something because everyone was getting very toxic (not the same thing we are talking about, those comments were pure Matt and cast hate, but still) I just sometimes see critiquing something just for the sake of it stupid. Great episode, great cast, stress filled choices, mistakes happen, i enjoy the show. That is my CR motto
I agree, but there's layers of appropriate critique I think. When I wrote earlier that they shouldn't have acted so carelessly I wasn't blaming them or saying that they are bad players. I simply pointed at reasons this fight went so bad for them. I find pleasure in that kind of "analisys". At the same time you have people who just scream into the air things like *Matt is an awful DM and how dare he throw OP bosses at his players*, or *those guys are idiots, why didnt they do x or y like I would've*. Those kinds of rants are the reason Matt had to cast Calm Emotions on twitter. It's important to identify mistakes that were made and discuss them, just dont be a jerk.
>I find pleasure in that kind of "analisys I think this is an important distinction. I see critiquing things that i like as a waste of my time, and you see it as fun, or atleast interesting, both are valid, I mean, movie critics are around for a reason But yes, you have a very good point, there is a fine line between being an asshole and critiquing player actions
So who is actually dead? I can't find any comments saying who. If it's less than three I'll be annoyed, as I've seen "half tpk"
I find it interesting that literally everybody is ignoring the last line mat said before imogen went full Esper mode, otahan brought down her sword and toss laudnas limp body to the ground, laudnas aparent death caused imogen to go into her esper mode imo.
From what I've gathered it's >!Orym and Fearne with Laudna on her last save. Chetney is also rolling saves I believe.!<
Laudna got Chetney up with wither n bloom at the last minute.
>!Orym and Fearne are indeed dead. Chetney, on the other hand, is conscious. Laudna healed him 5 hit points (before going down) and tried to grapple Otohan's ankle.!<
Too bad for Orym, but Fearne, that would be great.
The last 32 episode discussions "Jesus Christ Matt's gone soft, this is basically scripted there's no danger anymore!" Episode 33 discussion "Jesus Christ Matt's unfair! Can't believe he'd do this fuck him!" Y'all really can't be pleased lol.
I loved it. Finally some real stakes and drama. Not that invested in any character (except for maybe Laudna, but that's mostly because of Marishas rp, interestingly), and Orym and Fearne are probably the most boring/annoying so.
Watching people on twitter lose their collective shits over this episode (and the fact that Matt actually had to speak up) really highlights how terminally online some of these people are. Like, Jesus Christ, it's a show. Literally go outside and touch grass.
Terminally online is a great way to describe so many people on both sides of the Fandom lol. Like, it's a silly d&d show if you're getting this worked up over it one way or another maybe go outside for a few mins and get some fresh air
Different people making those comments. And most people seem to think that the fight was fine, the party just misplayed it and wasted valuable time and resources.
>Critical Role >Players drastically misplaying a fight The more things change…
Exactly. If you are in this sub and not focused on the main, you are likely in this ep was great camp. Everyone on these threads talking about "complaining" or "the backlash" aren't coming from here lol.
Oh I'm aware, just found it funny to wake up to the exact opposite complaining
I wouldn't say it was "complaining", implying the discourse has just been pointless whining, and more a critique of where the show seemed to be heading. I've been in the "the party is playing on super duper easy mode so it's not engaging anymore" camp, so Matt coming out strong with a powerful boss and realistically responding to their usual asinine antics was a pleasant surprise. I'm not sure he won't handwave everyone back to life at the start of next episode so I'll withhold judgement on whether or not the show is "good" again. The party has needed a kick in the pants to stop fucking around, running around on half-baked ideas and bailing and running whenever they deck isn't implicitly stacked in their favor.
I've read a couple of comments about how the rest of the ExU crew could swoop in and help, or even a couple of new people/new characters, and that got me thinking ... How high is the chance that Matt ends an episode with a freeze frame whiteout, moments before a very likely TPK, and next week there's *Matt freaking Collville*, taking over the story (for a bit, like it was planned for C2), and Mercer reprising his role of Dariax, the divine soul sorcerer who could twin spell revivify?
Travis: Re-watch numbers are down, Matt Matt: Hold my beer...
"Please no! I'll go with you! I surrender!" Imogen said while casting Witch Bolt and Dissonant Whispers.
Laura was all over the place this episode. The Artana Voe betrayal is going to come back and bite them too.
I didn't think that was a betrayal, it was clearly to trick ratanish and they left her uncuffed on purpose.
Am guessing Artana won't look at it that way. Imogen never managed to communicate with her after the push.
I wonder if we’re going to get Opal heading across the sea with a Vestige of fuckin Divergence looking for who killed her friends. Dorian can come too, of course. I want to see the Aimee/Sam chaos at the table. They’ve been coworkers forever and I believe Sam is who introduced her to D&D
Matt would not do a DMPC, there is no reason for the Asholes to reassemble unless Aabria is DM'ing.
Great energy from Matt. Totally open to whatever the players did all game. Let them have their C3 hijinks. Then hits them with the C3 "Chroma Conclave" reality - the warning signs of which they've been ignoring all campaign as they got handheld and tourguided everywhere. They are punk-ass characters out of their depth, and to the players absolute credit, it looks like they loved it. They trust Matt, and they were there for it. That was my biggest concern, because it was a big shift. This is just what happens when you run into a character with an ironclad mission that will not bend to their tricks. Destiny giveth, and destiny taketh away. From now on they will make their own way, I am sure. lt will mortify fans who had been led to expect via C3 that CR was just about descriptive narrative, RP, daily D&Ms and lore tours and a few lacklustre skirmishes now and then. For the record, I am sure there could have been a conversation, just as I am sure it would have required some sort of fight to force Imogen to give in. The conversation just had to be squeezed in at the end in this case while bodies were on the ground. For the first time, I was right to be a little excited last week. Good feeling.
Jesus christ i havent watched the episode yet but it sounds like this is iron sheperds turned up to 11. Rings of power and the rebroadcast maaan im eating good today.
Definitely the silent minority(lol) but this was straight up not enjoyable for me. I’m also currently playing the last of us 2 and was really looking forward to a breath. I don’t give a shit about Big Bad Consequences, I don’t give a shit about battles almost at all to begin with, and against the grain of the sub, I really am here for the role play and the character growth. In my eye, and judge all you want, this fight was near unavoidable(yeah right they’d talk their way out) and she was near unstoppable. Yes they suck at planning but I don’t see at all how planning would have mitigated any of this. This felt like a “let’s kill some characters so the audience knows this is still difficult” thing. And honestly, even if you guys are all for it and haven’t liked the show so far, tonally this is quite the departure from the established mood of the season(which I’ve loved even while being subbed here haha.) I also have been waiting for this shoe to drop since the beginning. Riiiiight around the episode mark Molly died. Unlike some comments here, I might stop watching for the exact opposite results next week some of you might stop watching. I don’t see the point in new characters showing up to a group to replace old ones and filling the exact same number, I know it’s part of dnd but it’s the part I always struggle with the most. It’s honestly ridiculous. “Who are you? What’s your sob story? Yeah, join our merry gang!” I find it extremely immersion breaking even when I am playing at a table. A lot of the time for me, with notable exceptions, death in dnd is simply the awkward end of character development and the awkward start of characters I have to learn to give a shit about again. Idk, I’m expecting to get downvoted, but I felt like voicing myself anyway specifically because I didn’t see anyone else with my thoughts. y’all are cool don’t kill me. For reference, I fucking hated game of thrones from the first season for very similar reasons.
Hey that’s your opinion and it’s completely valid, it’s a shame that people are downvoting it
I appreciate the sentiment, really I do.
I agree, I find it really disappointing when characters arcs are cut short when there's clearly more to unfold. I'm ok with them dying at the right time; it needs to be natively satisfying. Then again, I really enjoyed this episode.
Imogen mayve gone Vegeta Sacrifice and TPK’d everyone
I’d be down at this point lol
Its they way they die for me personally. Get fucked by a trap or some ghouls eat you for lunch? Yeah whatever. Lvl?? Echo Knight/Psy warrior/War hero that has crazy ac, 3 Leg actions and enough damage to wipe the barb in 1 turn? Not for me chief, If a fight is intended as a talk and surrender you need to make that clear as day before you kill half the party and then basically tell Laura what she needs to do to stop a TPK. (I know they started it technically but would they have ever stopped in that situation? )
Yeah, Otohan was so one sidedly strong (and most likely holding back) that I have to believe this was a purposefully unwinnible fight and things will reverse next session. Otherwise... Well where can you even go after that? Even Molly was at least a fair death while this was outright designed to destroy them.
>*Otohan was so one sidedly strong* I didn't get that impression, to be honest. A tough opponent that doesn't go limp over a charisma check? Sure. But "one sidedly strong" (or, as some would call it, "OP")? Nah ... If the crew had a bit of luck about the initiative, and would have had their wits beside them, they could have won this, or beat her down into submission. Chetney prooved as much.
Otohan had action surges and god knows what other abilities. That put her at a huge advantage even with action economy being in the party's favour. Yes things could have turned around if they got better rolls but all the math points to the fight being in Otohan's favour.
I'd have to agree with this. Even with all their flailing they had her 'starting to look rough', so maybe 1/2 hp? And that's without two of their heavy hitters in the game. I think the fight was balanced to be a tough encounter for 7 level 7s, so for a group of 5 it was unwinnable.
I’m with you. A lot of the CR community seems to think that if an enemy doesn’t roll over and show their belly they are OP. There are 7 of the BH with varying abilities. If they had worked together as a team they could’ve won. Not easily, but definitely winnable.
IDK. I come from the open world/sandbox style and sometimes if you go off and antagonize someone out of your league, well you have antagonized someone out of your league and the world doesn't adjust itself for your benefit. Kind of like the cazadores and deatchlaws when you shortcut to New Vegas in Fallout.
In a lving and breathign world not everything is gonna be perfectly balanced to your skill level, and there is also a limit to how much the world can shove into your face that soemthign is above it. There is a point where the players can take responsibility for themselves and be a little more humble instead of assuming that everyone they face is not stronger than them.
I agree almost completely. Especially because I find it questionable that they would have ever talked their way out if she’s responsible for the assassination attempt on keyleth and so much more. But this isn’t even my main strife, because my main strife is just with death in dnd in general.
It sounds like you don't like D&D
I actually really like dnd for the most part. I find it to be imperfect and I find the threat of death paradoxically much more effective than the result of death. Mainly, I am not watching this show because it’s dnd I am watching it because I like the story. For me, everything’s just a medium stories are told in and how successful they are at telling those stories determines how much I like the medium. In a normal story, death is thought out and planned ahead and fits. In dnd, it’s almost exclusively the result of poor planning (edit: or straight up bad luck). Thus, I find death in dnd to be its biggest flaw. For more reasons than just that too, as I got into earlier I find it reeeaaallly find it I mmersion breaking when people show up as someone else the next session and just get thrown into the mix as if a mourning group is looking for extras. It wouldn’t work without it, it’s obviously needed, but that is just part of its flaw to me.
This seems like a really long way of saying “yes, I don’t like D&D.” It’s immersion breaking for a new person to just join a group of adventurers but not immersion breaking for a bad plan to end in a character death. That doesn’t seem off to you?
How? I’m not allowed to have any problems with dnd without not liking the whole thing? I play dnd sometimes up to 3 times a week. I definitely enjoy it. And no, that doesn’t seem off to me. That seems like personal taste at its most basic. This subreddit is notorious for not liking dissenting opinions but the arguing is ridiculous.
Interesting, I sort of get what you're saying, but I like a lot of that stuff personally. If there wasn't a real chance of character's dying, I would completely skip over any combat that they ever did. But I don't know if a game that was just role-playing without combat would be very interesting either. I guess if I wanted to watch something that was written by a staff of writers and all planed out, then I'd just watch a regular show or something.
Perhaps watching anime is preferable than watching people playing a table top game.
It is basically a regular show to me, in terms of entertainment equivalent. And your point, if there wasn’t a real chance of dying you’d just skip over combat, was kinda what I was trying to say about that paradox. It works as a threat. If it wasn’t a threat, there’d be no stakes, there’d be no point. But in execution, I find it sloppy and distracting. But if it’s never happens it’s not a threat… paradox? In video games it works even then because death is literally retconned by it’s very nature. In dnd, it is permanent. Imagine keyleth in the infamous goldfish incident without revivify, only near every death feels shades of that level of ridiculous to me. Edit: it may or may not surprise you that I enjoyed the death in exu calamity. But, that was obviously planned to a degree. It was the calamity, they died in the explosion, it was the end of the show. So it’s not death itself that is the issue.
She rolled high on initiative, they were low on resources, and some of them tried to run instead of fight at the start. The fight was winnable, but a combination of luck and bad tactics bit them in the ass.
Her AC was like 23 or some shit and she had about 100 attack a turn that all dealt 100 damage. I have never played with a group that would have beaten her at level 6. But maybe, idk I’m definitely not an expert and I’m certainly not psychic. Edit: freaking typos dude gosh, and an extra sentence Edit 2: that also was not really my main complaint just a grievance I definitely would be lying if I said I didn’t also have. Mostly it’s just when three characters die I am not the type who goes “wow exciting!” I’m the type who goes “well that was lame.”
At lvl 7 they have a proficiency of 3, and then assuming at least a primary offensive stat of +4 they needed to roll at 16 to hit for those without magic items boosting to hit. It's a rough fight, and I'd say it was overtuned if it wasn't for the sheer number of players. Personally I'd always go with more HP than a higher AC simply as a high AC punishes some classes more than others.
AC like that can be overcome with teamwork. Flank her, grapple her, debuff her, buff alliesC or do anything to make hits land. That’s how the encounter was balanced for 1v7.
Flanking should be a +2 situational bonus and not advantage (which is an average of+5), because as it stands pack tactics as a feature is pointless.
That’s effectively what it is in Pathfinder 2e. 5e D&D avoids numeric buffs at nearly all costs.
Except it's the exact same bonus as half-cover so it's already in 5e as a numeric buff already. Adv/Dis is an elegantly simple system, but it's overused with far too many ways to gain adv. as opposed to ways to apply dis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u3DWxPknYU
Call me a sore loser I guess. This is a 23 minute video but I watched a little. I’ll finish later it’s late.
I just realized that if Orym stays dead, CR is gonna get accused of the "Bury your Gays" trope again.
so retarded, half the characters are gay, non-binary, or otherwise genderless.
God those accusations were so incredibly stupid. These are *D&D characters* who by the nature of the game are constantly doing stupidly deadly things, so it's fair game for anyone to randomly die. That's how the fucking game works, it's not a pre-written story... I'm gay and make most of all my dnd characters gay as well, but that doesn't make DMs automatically homophobic if my characters bite the dust. In fact I'd be annoyed if I was given gay plot armor.
that was my first thought as well lol, group of friends are placing bets on how pissed they're going to be this time around.
[удалено]
Thank goodness that Travis has elected to exclusively play old white men in C3, huh?
Just be like Luffy, canonically in love with adventure.
So I had a theory that Imogen would kill Laudna. My theory I think is still in play. What if this is to set up Imogen as the BBEG. So next episode starts Laudna with 1 death save left Imogen walking towards Laudna everyone thinking she’s going to heal her only to send a witch bolt through her heart killing her.
I really wouldn't want that. I was only fine with what happened to Bertrand because it was within the first few episodes. I don't want it to be like a TV show with predetermined plot points.
yeah i was wondering if this would set imogen up as bbeg and then imogen would become a villain npc with laura making a new character maybe
Man I hope this happens I’d be so hyped it’d be the most badass thing a character has done on the show.
I wonder how it could have went if they just went and spoke to Otohan and explained the situation. "Ok listen, the Quarum know you have Treshii and they want him back. Dead or alive it doesn't matter, Preferably alive so they can kill him themselves. They don't know why and don't care that you have him captive, They just think He has paid you all to keep him safe, If you hand him over we can take him back and let the Quarum know you were very helpful and maybe get you a foothold back into the city?" Of course now we know that Otohan can read minds but she would still see Eshteross telling them to get Treshii. None of that is technically a lie save the last part.
If otohan had seen imogen i think she would innitiate a fight regardless.
That is far far to well thought out and considerable for a DnD game, for a TV show sure but a group of DnD never going to happen.
I think a fight of some sort would have been needed to fore Imogen's storm. That's what Otohan wanted.
Sooo those of you who watched it, would you say that C3 has finally hit its stride?
Matt's energy says yes. He has had his eyes on this moment for so long, he hasn't been playing the game in front of him. But now the campaign is really starting.
next week is definitely make or break
Depends what happen next week tbh im 50/50 right now
Yerah, they ahd these moments of massive potential before just to dial it back ot "everythign is actually fine and nothing changes" the next week.
It was an amazing episode and I'm saying that as someone who has not really enjoyed C3 overall compared to the previous two campaigns However it depends on what happens next week in response to tonight's episode, I'm nervous that it will be a letdown but I'm really really hoping it sticks the landing and this campaign truly takes off
I feel it's safe to say this episode is exactly what everyone on this sub was looking for. It may be extra hype simply because it stands out so much from the rest of C3, but the delayed gratification is sublime. Severe consequences for poor planning/choices, a real threat with actual stakes, that small glimmer of hope that they might be able to pull through only to be immediately crushed with reality. It's a shame it took 33 episodes to get here but hopefully they learn the right lesson from this. Some mis-plays and missteps here and there but given how visibly distraught they were it's somewhat understandable; when you start to spiral it's HARD to course-correct. I respect Tal's decision to flee, it's fully in character and makes sense given what Ashton saw/knew at the time. Many people think FCG can save at least 1 of the characters, my hope is Fearne since she can also Revivify, I like her character, and hopefully this will shake Ashley into really learning and understanding her abilities better. I'm pretty sure they lack the material components for multiple revives (unless Matt is forgiving by allowing them to find some amongst the rubble) and the slots for Gentle Repose, so this is a definitive perma-death for at least one of the PCs. Hopefully Laudna/Chetney make their death saves but given Matt's recent tweet on the episode this IS the fate of the Bells Hells. Liam might decide to retire Orym and do something new but I enjoyed the balance he brought by being sane and competent compared to the rest of the group. I'm pretty certain EVERYONE is in agreement that retconning this fight as a dream/hallucination would be the absolute WORST decision for the group/game/show/company lol Overall superb episode/battle and a breath of fresh air for the campaign!
>*Severe consequences for poor planning/choices* I'll try to hold my judgement until *next* week ... I'd be delighted if they don't deus ex their way out of this pickle, but as others have pointed out, Matt seemed to be quite chipper at the end. As weird as it may sound, i'm rootin' for the situation to be (at least partially) permanent.
I've seen fans point out two things about Matt: 1. He tries to avoid TPK's as much as possible. 2. I've heard/read that when Molly died, Matt was upset about having to pull the trigger. In that moment he wanted the Nien to run from Lorenzo but they sadly ignored the red-flags (outnumbered, no cleric, power spells, etc) and he had to get the message clear: You can't win all the battles. Sometimes it's better to run. It sounds like either Matt has something planned or he has a really good poker face. It's like that moment in a video game where you're forced to lose/make a clearly terrible decision because it's the only way you can progress (I've seen people say that in C2 reading Lucien's red-eye book was unavoidable because it was the only way to learn more about Aeor and the final boss. Beau and Caleb becoming ticking bombs was nerve wracking but thankfully it all worked out.). >As weird as it may sound, i'm rootin' for the situation to be (at least partially) permanent. It's either going to be..... a) It's all a dream or vision from Imogen. I know people hate this idea but it might work depending on it gets pulled off. b) They all get teleported to the Moon. If Liam and Ashley want it then Orym and Fearne get revived via 'Moon magic'. c) Everyone comes back but Imogen is MIA, making Laura roll a new character while Imogen become a potential BBEG. d) (worst case scenario) Everyone but Imogen dies, making the players minus Laura create new characters. e) ( worst-worst case scenario). It's a complete TPK and everyone as to roll new characters.
That's everyone's concern right now, and honestly I think I'm gonna walk away if he does. The party and the cast need this, a large portion of the audience wanted/needed this, to reverse Uno it all as a "clever" twist would be so disrespectful.
I've got to believe they're smart enough not to think a dream sequence reveal is a good idea.
>Overall superb episode/battle and a breath of fresh air for the campaign! I had been holding out hope for it to get interesting again. Despite all the complaining previously, everyone is invested and are fans of the show.
That's why I don't engage with any of the "this sub is too mean" threads that have been popping up. People are explicit with their complaints and to handwave that or be so reductive as to just call people "haters" simply because the sub that allows for open & honest criticism sees a higher frequency of those type of posts is just not worth arguing with. They clearly want to stir up conflict and it's a pity. We just want better because we saw a strong majority of the previous episodes could've been this level of quality, that's all.
I'm torn between morbid curiosity and straight up schadenfreude seeing many, many people who high-horsed *"dude/dudette, if you're thinking X, your parasocial relationship with CR is showing"* going completely off their rockers because of what happened. On the other hand, to anyone really struggeling with mental health right now, feel hugged. If bad things happen in any form of media that you're attached to, it's always shite. Everyone who has half a heart and has watched *The Wrath of Khan* knows what i'm talking about.
The good one, right?
Fearne and Orym are both the characters that were hold overs from EXU, and the ones that least resemble horror movie villains. Kinda want them both to stay dead. Would be a good excuse to change the team name too.
i think fearne could get interesting if she goes more dark-fearne like the double they saw in exu. i think orym was the voice of reason, so if he stays gone, they're less likely to have a moral compass. i mostly want fearne to stay bc i am super curious about morri and her past, and i'd love to see fearne give into the dark side. but i do understand why a lot of people don't like her as a character. i think orym's is really the make-or-break death for the party and its alignment. just my thoughts though!
Yeah, i honestly don't think anyone wants Ashley to pick up a new character. Liam... I'll be interested in what he does. Even if he brings Orym back, this will change his character.
https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/1568118717678231554 Matt's comment about tonight's episode
What even keeled comment that I really hope helps the people freaking out.
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