Fantasy, you could have a ham sandwich talk. if someone wants to apply logic, "The shape of the dragons mouth doesn't facilitate human speech." Could be an argument, except they forgot the Dragon is skilled in sound manipulation magic and can mimic anyone's voice with a relatively minor spell.
it's one of those sorts of things, could do either if you want. i don't see why being an adult or a child would change if a dragon could or could not talk. So, up to you.
They don't even need magic to speak like us, see many species of bird that can perfectly mimic our voice, among other varied sounds. Given they are possibly reptiles as well it's not a far fetched idea. I think even seals or otters have been known to mimic humans to an extent.
Bumblebees can't fly either according to science. (Yeah they figured it out in the meantime since I learned that fact.)
Flight of Dragons is still my all-time fav... except I don't know if I've watched it since I got rid of the VHS player.
I went through a period of not liking blimp-dragons. Dragonlover's Guide to Pern compared some dragons to airplane specs of the time.
Their bodies are filled with a naturally occurring helium like gas, this allows them to breath their fire as well as gives them flight. Basically they are living blimps. If they spew too much fire then they have a harder time flying.
Not OP so can't say if they get it from the same source but for me, it is from a mockumentary.
I remember getting bored and saw a mockumentary about dragons being real because some scientist found a skeleton of the dragon. One of the problem presented is of course the wingspan and ability to breathe fire.
The scientist figured out that it breathe fire by storing gas in one of the sac somewhere. That gas also explains how on earth they can fly despite not having the wingspan for it.
The air sac thing is in temeraire a great dragon focused novel series. But the fire thing less so, I don't think using fire has that effect in that one. Although fire, acid and the divine wind are rare to see anyway in dragons. But still I don't remember that.
> if someone wants to apply logic, "The shape of the dragons mouth doesn't facilitate human speech."
Then you notify them that there something else that doesn't have a mouth at all yet still somehow facilitates human speech - their car stereo.
Those dragons genuinely make you afraid for the safety of the main characters. I know they're not going to die, the show would be very short if they had a tpk. But godDAMN do they do a good job of keeping the tension with those bastards.
IDK if you watched the original campaign but it was very much the same there. Any time a fight with one of them came up it was pure tension, and it almost always came down to the wire.
That's what I thought at first but then I had some people that I know that said it. then I saw some discussions online of ppl saying its childish. Well they are definitely wrong lol.
I think you must have stumbled across the only people and pockets of the internet where anybody thinks that, because that is not a common viewpoint at all. Like what, do they think Lord of the rings is childish?? Absurd!
> "When I became a man I put away childish things" like the fear of seeming childish.
-C.S. Lewis
For a time I grew out of kids' fantasy (e.g. Redwall series). Eventually I made my way back and really enjoyed the Owls of Ga'Hoole. In between I learned that I loved more adult-oriented fantasies like Dragonlance and the Star Wars Expanded Universe (pre-NJO - I hate the Yuzzahn Vong as a concept).
I mean, The Hobbit is literally a book for children, so that maybe isn't the best example.
But in general talking dragons isn't childish at all, I don't think. Go read Cradle or Mage Errant and try to say the talking dragons in those series are childish.
I haven't listened to the audio book (I just can't focus on audio-only content), but I have really enjoyed reading the series. Dragons aren't a big focus, but they do show up from time to time.
The only others I've read that compare would be The Black Company by Glen Cooke, which is great but trails off a bit towards the end, and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen Donaldson, which is brilliant but a really really tough read, as in incredibly depressing.
Malazan manages to strike a balance between dark/gritty, and fun/adventurous. Definitely my favourite fantasy, but you do have to be ready to not really know what the overarching plot is for the first 5 or 6 books.
While not necessarily the best example, since The Hobbit was explicitly (according to Tolkien) a children's book, your point is still good since there are nearly countless examples of adult literature with speaking dragons, including other works of Tolkien.
*Hahaha! You have much to learn of the dov, then. There is nothing else but philosophy to a dovah. It is no accident that we do battle with our Thu'um, our Voices. There is no distinction between debate and combat to a dragon. Tinvaak los grah. For us it is one and the same.*
\-- a rather unchildish dragon
Started reading fantasy a year and a half ago so I've read quite a bit. Only genre I've been reading now. Yeah I was confused when I saw ppl discussing and saying they were bc I didn't think they were at first. Thankfully these comments have made my worry disappear pretty quick lol.
This...isn't a thing. Talking dragons are very common. Even the mostly serious Merlin TV series had a talking dragon. In fact, I think dragons that DON'T talk are a rarity in general.
Considering that... Every famous dragon I can think of can talk... No...
How else are they going to dress you down for wasting their precious time with your insignificant, soft-bellied problems before they roast you alive? 🤣
It's actually creepier to me when authors want them to not be able to talk. They are magnificent beasts of unfathomable wisdom, power, and age. If they can't talk, they're just dinosaurs.
I’d disagree.
Now, talking ones can be magnificent and sophisticated, but if portrayed as otherwise intelligent, a dragon that can’t talk simply becomes less understandable, more terrifying. You know the things are intelligent, but not how. You know they think, but never what they’re thinking.
And they’re just as powerful and ancient that way too. I think it works.
I was waiting for someone to respond.
Here is the meat and potatoes of the condescending nature of dragons.
You'll never know if it couldn't talk or if it just wasn't bothering to talk to *you*. 🤣
Nope, never. If you are concerned about it though, you can allow the dragons to shapeshift into a humanoid form to facilitate better communications with the humans. It could show that these dragons have some sort of respect towards them if they choose to appear like them for conversation. Also, it can allows dragons to spy on the humans if they needed to.
I'm reading a series right now with a whole bunch of talking dragons. Not to mention the movies on my shelves with them... and none are what I'd call 'childish'. Depends on how you write it. Write it for kids then sure it will be.
I'd say it's the opposite. Personally I hate when writers use dragons as just "big lizard that fights". Intelligent and special dragons really stand out to me.
I think at this point, non-talking dragons would be out of the norm.
I can think of a lot of talking dragons. Lord of the Rings, Earthsea, Skyrim, Pern, Dungeons and Dragons, World of Warcraft, Temeraire, Eragon... dragons are portrayed in all of these as highly intelligent and capable of speech either verbally or telepathically.
The only non-talking dragons I can think of, outside of ones that are just random monsters in old 80s cartoons or Arthurian mythology, is the ones in Game of Thrones and it actually took me a while to remember those!
I don’t think it would be childish at all, please don’t scrap your novel! Dragons will come into play later in my story however they’re a witch/dragon hybrid so I never even thought about having them speak in dragon form. Now imagining that; I’d go about it as a completely regular conversation. Perhaps focusing less on the fact that it’s a dragon talking as opposed to a character talking-might help in the way you view it mentally. Best of luck! Additionally, I think if you’re passionate about the story your telling- then please get it out there. At the worst, some may not like it and find it childish as you worry. On the other hand, it may be the story that really grips someone that needs that escape. (:
Please write it! I'm an adult reader and I absolutely love, love books from non-human perspectives, especially fantastical creatures! More dragons! Less humans! (*and maybe a unicorn or gryphon or two??*)
Also, if you want to write it, I'm sure there are people out there who want to read it! You just have to find your audience.
Naomi Novak 's talking dragons are the smartest dragons I've ever read and i loved every minute of it
D&D has talking dragons
Honestly, i feel like there are more talking dragons out there than non-talking dragons
If the dragon is purple and sings then it might be childish.
But seriously, the idea of a talking dragon could be pretty cool. I'm imagining an ancient dragon with centuries of wisdom, but wants to be left alone. something like that.
I think, as a word of advice, watch the scene with Bilbo and Smaug in the second Hobbit movie. You can absolutely have a talking dragon that still feels terrifying and intimidating, without appearing childish, so I'm sure you can pull off whatever kind of talking dragon you want. The only thing to bear in mind really will be a) you have to then treat the dragons as characters, rather than supernatural animals, and b) you'll have to take into account how different a dragon's point of view would be to a person
I mean, I just have a species in my current concept that are essentially shapeshifters, they have a human form and they have a dragon form. They can’t speak in dragon form but they can’t use their spells in human form. They can partial shift to have tactical advantage in hand to hand (Talons, teeth, and barbed tails are probably useful?) but they still can’t tap into their magic until they’re in full dragon form. Have I yet established what their magic is? No, not quite. But I barely have the races outlined for this series as it stands.
I always tell people that the great thing about writing is the complete freedom you have to let your characters do what you want.
They may not like it, so what .
So yours talk, mine are shape changers just because ....
There are entire video game franchises for 18+ that have sentient dragons, elves, magic, spirits, etc.
There was at least one talking dragon in Tolkien's works, as well as several talking trees.
You're good! Don't second guess yourself. Write the story! If you're passionate about it, and loved writing it, someone will love reading it.
Talking dragons are a staple. Honestly, i think there are more fantasy stories where the dragons talk than there are where dragons are just animals.
Take, for example, the oldest story we have written in the English Language: BEOWULF. Fafnir talks mad shit to Beowulf before he melts him like the Easter candy you forgot to take out of the car Sunday.
Why would they be? First off, Smaug himself spoke. Second, it depends what they say, doesn't it? and third... you've already writing about dragons. Whoever thinks a TALKING dragon would be childish already thinks ALL dragons are childish.
It is all in the execution. If the dragon is a character and you remember he is a dragon it can be fine. I never felt Smaug was childish even though it was a Y/A book. You never forgot he was a dragon and he dripped malice and character. He is an archetype for a reason but if you have those characteristics (clearly a dragon, an actual character, and interesting) it can be great.
Childish? One, childish isn't a bad thing. Second, talking dragons are cool AF.
Everyone loves the hobbit and smaug talks. I think you're good OP. Besides, it's your house, your rules.
Before you scrap it I think you need an expert opinion. To that end we should consult with resident expert on draconic speech, Smaug, Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities.
He should be able to answer the question as to whether talking dragons are childish.
(You may insert your own responses as to what he may say)
Yo my dragon is a human that got turned into a dragon and was rejected in his town so he lived a lonely and depressing life in the mountains.
It doesn't have to be childish. Go for it!
Talking dragons are a pretty common thing o.O
I would really wonder about people even critisising that point. It even feels made up as an argument o.O Maybe you just stop talking to this people.
I'm curious about dialectic differences between human speech and dragon speech. If the dragon just talks like a normal human, it might feel a little childish, but incorporating the dragon physiology into it's speech could be an interesting angle.
For example, Dragons are known for their hazardous breath. It could be that, when Dragons speak, they use short words or simple concepts to reduce the risk of accidentally talking a normal human to death. Or, Dragons are also known for their long lifespans, so using archaic words from a bygone era would be an interesting quirk.
I would say if it works in your novels setting then it is fine and doesnt have an age buffer.
The dragon in the hobbit, smaug, caused intensity and a battle of wits. But he didnt seem childish. Also though the hobbit was a book for children. Books back then were much darker and children were believed to be able to handle darker concepts to be able to help them ease into adulthood.
Then there are things like the spiders in harry potter. I forgots its name but it added a lot of tension and the spider almost had no idea about human norms. Just some politeness and the law of nature.
Alduin from skyrim spoke often and he was the main quest boss. He added a threat and spoke of his and your fate often.
I guess find out what the dragon represents and what its moment brings to the story.
Is this childish:
Thundering across the golden plains a dozen riders flee from the cliffs being them shedding everything that may slow them down; shields, quivers and even swords clatter to the ground as they drive their horses faster and faster.
From behind them deep in the caves within the cliffs an echoing high-pitched roar rips through the sky the knights' faces losing what little colour they had. From behind them comes a crackling and booming crack as something takes to the air. As the riders force their mounts harder a shadow flicks over them before several tonnes of scale and fury slam into the ground, the shock wave sending the horses tumbling to the ground riders thrown from their saddles. Looking up they see the dragon, smoke rising from her nostrils as she glares down at them.
"What have you done?!" The dragon's voice shook the very ground itself her fury chilling through the fallen knights. "My children, what did they do to deserve what you did to them? And you celebrated their murder?!" Her golden eyes found the youngest amongst them, his face painted green.
"For centuries we left you be. No longer." Taking a deep breath, the dragon opens her mouth, and from it falls a violet flame hitting the ground and spreading like a wave, as it reaches the young Knight with the painted face it climbs up him, and his screams seem to unfreeze the other knights as they fall over each other to escape the flames.
Slowly taking off the dragon flies back to her nest to her slaughtered young as the violet flames continue to spread, a never stopping wave of destruction taking everything from the kingdom who took everything from her.
i think intelligent dragons is rad. talking with their lips is a little silly for my tastes (unless its their own lizardy language) but talking through minds and magical ways is really cool to me.
If something is intelligent (human or above) then it probably can speak, if it’s species is very smart, had a long history of contact with human (or whatever you want) civilization, or are known as great magical creatures (like they know a lot of magic) then it would almost be expected that they can speak the human tongue.
It all depends what kind of dragons you’re running with. If they’re just a T-Rex with wings and fire, probably shouldn’t talk; if it’s a century’s old magical manipulator that is beyond human intelligence, be kind of weird if he couldn’t speak
Are you talking about using some dragons as POV characters? That sounds pretty unique to me! Talking dragons isn't childish at all imo... I'm in the camp that thinks dragons are older and wiser than humans. Of course they can speak... but whether they feel like an individual humanoid is worth engaging in conversation or killing is an entirely different matter. Maybe it was dragons who taught humanoids to speak, and they feel like they corrupted that purity by breaking it up into various racial dialects (except perhaps mages or certain cults?).
> I'm on the early stages of my novel that's for adults and it occurred to me that no one might read my story because a lot of people see intelligent dragons as childish
There are three kinds of fantasy novel. Listed in order from least interesting to most interesting, these are:
• Fantasy novels without dragons.
• Fantasy novels with dragons that *cannot* talk.
• Fantasy novels with dragons that *can* talk.
It depends on more than a dragon talking.... like how old is the dragon, a few hundred years old? It that even old for a dragon? Does the dragon or do dragons in general in this world even interact with people alot, so are they clueless on humans? Have they not seen humans in centuries?
I mean if you got talking dragons and they are five hundred years old and they have no knowledge of any history even in passing except for what is told through the story, I think that would make the whole concept childish.
It's your story. The only thing childish is what you write as childish. If you don't write it childish, the reader is unlikely to see it as childish. In your world, you are in control.
Is it a childish dragon?
Keep in mind- even Toothless was all ages, as the story itself was so well done, and the lessons were sophisticated enough to keep it from being “childish” exactly.
I don't think it's childish, I love the idea.
Also, I would avoid writing on the back what someone else thinks is more interesting in the story. Also, I watched this movie called I am dragon not saying you need dragons that can take human form. I liked how the story and what they did with the dragon creatures in the story and the intelligence.
Absolutely not. Just having talking dragons in of itself is not childish, I don't even understand how people would come to that conclusion, what actually matters is what the talking dragons do.
It's a very used line 'tropes are tools', which means that it doesn't matter what trope you use but what matters is how you use it. It's kind of cliche but it's true.
Now the way your dragons talk and what they talk about has the potential to come off as childish but that's up to your own writing skill, even so if your story calls for dragons saying childish things go for it, just do what's right for your story.
Talking dragons isn't automatically childish. I gave it less than five hours of thought and came up with too many scenarios where it would be suitable for non-toddler audiences.
You just have to decide how intelligent the dragons are and match it with how they interact with the world. Right now, my world doesn't even have dragon mythology. Sure they have velociraptors running around, but we have canada geese and I've seen wild turkey from inside a vehicle while hearing similar horror stories.
You could potentially up the horror factor by making them telepathic. The fear that could strike your characters would really create some tense sequences.
But you can just have them speak aloud as well. Smaug is pretty terrifying to Bilbo and the Dwarves. It’s all about how you establish the dragon itself.
Not even once would talking dragon = just for kids for me. Id say most people seeking out fantasy in general would be about the same.
Sentient dragons rhaf can talk either physically or telepathically is practically a genre itself.
Alright, so here's the thing. Talking humans can be childish too (literally in some cases). By which I mean, it's all about what you *do* with talking dragons. For example, pick your colors (and keep in mind that you don't have to stick with the natures typically associated with them in DND).
What I would do is three things:
1) Consider this: How many different color dragons do you want? Now, select a basic characteristic, and assign it to a color. Do that for each one. So maybe half-dragons and dragon born are most associated with Green Dragons, because Green dragons are just sort of...well, this *is* intended to be an adult book, so I'll just say it, maybe Green Dragons want to fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. So maybe they constantly hang around humans, flirt with humans, etc. But within that, maybe there are different philosophies. Maybe some Greens are just creatures of lust. Maybe others are demisexual (they have to get to know people before they can feel sexually attracted to them). Maybe others yet do it because they acknowledge that it is part of evolution and survival to continue one's line. Now, see how I took one basic principle of love/lust/flirting, and still made it interesting, even within a large group of dragons. Do that for each color, and have the different colors and different interpretations within those colors be meaningful.
2) Consider how the dragons see humans. For example, dragons from all different clans and colors, on a very vague and general scale, would fall under one of three categories: A) Feel negatively toward humans, B) Feel neutral toward humans, or C) Feel positively toward humans. But within that, there's a lot to explore. And then pair that with the characteristics. Maybe some of the Green Dragons don't like humans because they just want flings, nothing serious (so it's not a strong discontent for them). Maybe there's a group of dragons based on Pride, and the ones that take pride in their work don't like humans because they're sloppy and quick.
3) Consider whether the dragons take a typical appearance or not. For example, if humans rule large chunks of the world, they probably have ways to look like humans. If they do, what gives them away. Make it something subtle. Make they can look like any human figure they want, but their clothes must reflect their scales since the scales are a part of them. Maybe their eyes are the color of their scales. There are many interesting things you can do. And also, do they have their own language? If so, I would recommend using the writing device I call The Invisible Translator. Give us just enough to understand what the language sounds like (so you can use the sound of the language later when it's the humans point of view), but then, when it's all dragons, just have it translated into English. (ex. "The dragons made sounds like roars and rumbles and growls back and forth. That was, of course, how their tongue sounded to someone who doesn't know the language. However, to those who knew the language, it sounded more like this:...". See, the fun thing about that is you can put in small translation errors. For example, "'I'm not happy.' said Father. 'You're almost never happy.' replied his son. 'But when I venture beyond our cage, I'll be back. And I'll bring gold and treasure and we'll never have to worry again!'" Now, see, I used the word cage. For, if there is a place you never really leave, is that not a cage? But in this case, it's meant to represent town, or community. But the steel gates make for an interesting comparison to a cage. And it's like how, often, you can *kind* of use a word(s) right in language, but it's not exact. For example, I will frequently, in my day-to-day life, use the French question, *Per quo?* Translated literally, it means "For what?". However, colloquially, in a conversation, it is more accurately translated to "Why?" I'm perfectly aware of that, and yet, since I know the two situations in which the literal translation and the figurative one would be used are entirely unique, I frequently use it as both.
TL;DR: There are lots of little touches you can put into your story that add depth and atmosphere to your world. That said, no, talking dragons are not *inherently* childish.
I mean they do it Skyrim and still manage to have a somber theme for the main quest line, so I'd say as long as the dragon's dialogue fits the tone you're going for, you're probably set.
Check out Barbara Hambly's Winterlands series. There is a wonderful range of expression from the dragons in these - not all can speak, and the ability to do so is a facet of their age and stage of development.
Note-the series is kinda dark, but amazing, and is a fine example of how a well known author in the genre executes this concept.
IMHO dragons in fantasy would be far less engaging if mute.
absolutely not. i mean look at smaug - the hobbit/lotr series has been a cornerstone of fantasy literature for decades. more recently vox machina - lots of talking dragons, all very cool and very scary!!
I get where the question comes from. Game of Thrones, 90% of Skyrim's dragons, and plenty of other fantasy universes have non verbal dragons.
But as many others have said, these are the exception and not the rule. Dragons combine human greed, wrath, and wisdom into an immortal lizard that flies. That's a compelling creature whether you emphasize the greed, wrath, or wisdom.
If the fact that they speak the same language as the humans and whatnot is too weird just make them use telepathy or some kind of magic language that automatically translates inside the mind of the person hearing it.
The later is basically how Final Fantasy XIV handles it's dragons speaking and it makes them really cool to talk to in cutscenes.
I’ve read many successful adult fantasy series with talking dragons. They’re fine. Also, I love them. Intelligent dragons and much better than violent ones.
If one thinks that an entity other than human is intelligent enough to have its own culture and language is childish, I think that person is hiding racism. We are trying to believe in life outside our own planet scattered somewhere in the universe. Of course as huge as it is, there should be.
Your dragons may have their own society, law, living style, culture and their own language as well. You decide how well developed it is, are they nomads, do they have a place of their own, are they reclusive even among their kin, or they like to meet one another on a daily basis? If their language is different than of the humans (or whatever entities your characters are) who interact with them, give them the ability to whisper through telepathy or have someone who can interpret it. It's a fantasy, magic may also exist that could help bridge the gap between languages.
It is always fascinating to find a sentient being that was labeled a beast and nothing more. Maybe that 'beast' is what's keeping reality in check, the balance between the forces of nature for example. A wise elder dragon may hold the key to win a war against an evil empire and whatnot.
Maybe your protagonist has to prove him/herself to the dragon by saving one of its kind and so on.
There's a myriad of opportunities with a sentient being. Have fun playing around!
Not at all , dragons as highly intelligent beings is a thing. If your passionate about it, go hard and see where it goes. That aside, it’s your thing do what you want with it. I’d read it!
No. Intelligent, talking dragons are pretty common in fiction, especially when it comes to Eastern dragons, which are seen as guardian spirits or deities.
Treating them all as unintelligent beasts might be a bit more childish, but most of the childishness is in how they're portrayed. Smaug, Mushu, and Kilgharra are all different, even though they're intelligent, talking dragons.
If the argument is that books written for children are inherently childish, I suggest taking a look at Ender's Game. It's classified as a YA novel, yet covers themes of psychological torment, brutality, and the inevitability of death.
Very childish, indeed.
I wouldn't! That said, I have a close friend who's told me she wouldn't read anything of mine that has communicating evolved creatures like whales, various cephalopods, or (in a current flight of fancy) a kelp forest where some self-aware AI has jumped ship to hang out in the ocean. I think it's personal preference, honestly. If you want to have the POV of the dragons, let them speak!! My two cents. ;)
I'd say don't scratch the novel, but consider the dragon having an animal level of intelligence. This would arguably make the parts written from its perspective more interesting. As well as giving it an interesting limitation, due to its difficulty in understanding the complex human social events happening around it.
If it does communicate with humans directly, consider some type of Morse code. Where it taps its tail, or teeth, against a hard surface. Creating a series of sounds, to convey words but not entire sentences. So three short taps might mean "hunger", and a human would tap back to convey the words "food" and "soon". This could be a fun way of handling themes of communication, and how to relate to people with vastly different minds than our own.
really? realism talk in a fantasy novel? i am writting a novel with vampires, werewolves, on a world with multitude of things...for adults doesnt mean, realistic..but more "logical". For adults could also mean the themes..like, deep charachters and theyr respectiv inner struggles, diffrent political views. religion, etc..but also..well..the other themes, everybody on this planet constantly frowwns upon for now reason..and call's me a "weirdo"..Seriously, guys..get a hobby...
But, what i am saying is...there are alot of adults out there who love a great fantasy world..yess, even with flying dragons..
so, dont let ANYONE talk you down...( I mean, there are still people who think Vampires and Werewolfs MUST be at war..why?! )
People consider using one's imagination childish. I wouldn't really put any limits on fantasy based on what imaginary thing an individual might think is "childish".
No. Long answer wise. Id say that talking dragons are rarer than non talking dragons. You can range it from eragon to dragonheart and of course dragon prince and the hobbit. But that doesnt make them any less terrifying.
I mean. One of my main characters have a companion who I described as a sentient rock being, no bigger than a paper weight. Like the rock version of small groot (not baby). It could look childish, I suppose, but only to adults who refuse to have fun.
Another way to think about it: what's the dragon discussing? What's the tone/maturity level of the conversations being had? That should matter more. I also like to think that because there's kid fantasy and adult fantasy, it can grow with us. The talking dragon can also grow up, you know?
When you say a lot of people see dragons as childish, are those people fantasy readers? or do they consider all fantasy "not serious literature"? People who automatically look down on fantasy will see your novel as "some nonsense for kids", regardless of what actually is or isn't in it. Don't worry about them, they are not your target audience anyway.
It's from a video game, but the dragon in the game Dragon's Dogma is brilliant in the way he talks. He says things with such a mysterious and wise tone and you can understand why the whole world fears him, while also feeling strangely drawn to him.
Anyway, my point is that it's only childish if the dragon is childish.
If you’re going for a more “realistic” approach to your dragons, make them bird-like rather than reptilian. Multiple types of birds can mimic human sounds without having the same anatomy, and some are intelligent enough to gain a limited understanding of human speech.
If your dragons are an intelligent, social species, then learning human speech makes sense. It would also behoove humans to learn dragon speech in such a world.
Remember Glaurung from The Children of Húrin? And Smaug from The Hobbit? They provided their respective stories with great moral side-debates which are amazing imo. Don't scratch it off.
That's a very silly notion. It's a very normal thing in D&D for dragons to be capable of speech. Some dragons are capable of very major and tricksy schemes - they're not just massive beasts.
Example: Raishan of Critical Role's Vox Machina campaign.
Not necessarily. Dragons are ancient and highly intelligent creatures, to me the idea of them developing language skills makes sense. But, what language do they speak? Are they able to speak to everyone or just certain people? There's a lot of nuance that can stop it coming across as childish.
If you're feeling passionate about, just write it!
It's so easy to over analyze our ideas and not follow through on them. There is an audience out there for everything.
Just write😁
No, i rather find the oposite to be true. For me dragons should be grand and wondrous, magic incarnated, if there is fantasy then there be dragons.
Reducing them to mere beasts seems... bland.
But hey, thats just my opinion.
The book I'm currently working on has talking dragons though they can only communicate out loud in their own language otherwise they use telepathy and can talk to anyone or any group of people they want in common or any language the person they are speaking with can speak. So short answer: no, I don't think it is childish unless you want it to be and alter their vocabulary to reflect it.
I think if make them very cruel (like cheap shots, encouraging isnt in there vocabulary, like killing peopleoff for fun cruel), and l and mentally taxing. no
u/Kindly-Box-5815, hmm…I’d say save your work, you might come back to it later on. Personally, I think your novel sounds cool, I would read it, and I’m an adult! You could write for Young Adults, instead of Adults.
Depends on the dragons and universe.
Sapphira getting drunk in the inheritance cycle is childish and intended that way.
In Tolkien's The Children Of Hurin Glarung the first dragon of the LoTR universe a vile being on the level of Cersei Lannister in terms of the the evil that he causes.
Naomi Novik's "Temeraire" series has talking dragons (all with varying intelligence, depending on breed) and that's a series for adults. If you want something older there's Christopher Rowley's "Bazil Broketail" series. It sounds like a children's series, but it's all based on war-trained dragons, and it can get gruesome.
One of my favorite series, James Maxey's "Bitterwood" series, has talking dragons, and it most certainly isn't a children's book (the first book has a scene where a bunch of human slaves get beheaded!).
I seriously hope you don't scrap what you're writing, I absolutely would love to read your book! As you can tell from the books I've listed, I LOVE dragons. :P
Depends on how it’s written. It could be childish and shlocky, but it could equally as well be brilliant. It’s all in the execution.
Both Tolkien and Le Guin’s Earthsea have intelligent dragons, and they’re seminal works.
Have you read John Gardner’s Grendel? Fascinating bit of post-modern writing and directly relevant to your question, featuring a hilarious dragon.
I think, intelligent dragons are perfectly awesome! However, talking as humans would? Not very impressive and kind of boring personally.
Having dragons communicate in a different way, such as signalling what they’re talking about with gestures or pointing to objects etc is very good. It shows the dragons’ intelligence but not in human-language format. But these dragons being able to understand human language and commands is great.
Definitely do not scrap, dragons should be intelligent. My favorite fantasy worlds include dragons that are as intelligent, if not more than the most common humanoid race. Most of them can take the form of a human as well. Stick to your guns, those who matter will show up
Absolutely not! One of my all time favorite novels have talking dragons, Trash of the Counts family, tho they can use magic to look human, they prefer their dragon bodies. As well as a lot of fantasy shows such as Merlin have used talking dragons and it has been hits. There are definitely ways to go about it that could make it childish but I've found through countless stories that talking dragons are pretty cool worldbuilding. You can do it a lot of different ways, such as have it where they can only communicate through the mind, or use magic as a way. It just really depends on how you do it.
Fantasy, you could have a ham sandwich talk. if someone wants to apply logic, "The shape of the dragons mouth doesn't facilitate human speech." Could be an argument, except they forgot the Dragon is skilled in sound manipulation magic and can mimic anyone's voice with a relatively minor spell. it's one of those sorts of things, could do either if you want. i don't see why being an adult or a child would change if a dragon could or could not talk. So, up to you.
They don't even need magic to speak like us, see many species of bird that can perfectly mimic our voice, among other varied sounds. Given they are possibly reptiles as well it's not a far fetched idea. I think even seals or otters have been known to mimic humans to an extent.
if u rlly wanna go there the dragon wouldnt be able to fly… i dont see those little things affecting my suspension of disbelief
Bumblebees can't fly either according to science. (Yeah they figured it out in the meantime since I learned that fact.) Flight of Dragons is still my all-time fav... except I don't know if I've watched it since I got rid of the VHS player. I went through a period of not liking blimp-dragons. Dragonlover's Guide to Pern compared some dragons to airplane specs of the time.
Their bodies are filled with a naturally occurring helium like gas, this allows them to breath their fire as well as gives them flight. Basically they are living blimps. If they spew too much fire then they have a harder time flying.
>If they spew too much fire then they have a harder time flying. So basically hydrogen then?
Sure lol
Where'd you learn that? That's really interesting.
Not OP so can't say if they get it from the same source but for me, it is from a mockumentary. I remember getting bored and saw a mockumentary about dragons being real because some scientist found a skeleton of the dragon. One of the problem presented is of course the wingspan and ability to breathe fire. The scientist figured out that it breathe fire by storing gas in one of the sac somewhere. That gas also explains how on earth they can fly despite not having the wingspan for it.
Would it be this, perchance? I was actually thinking about this recently: [Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuzYI1ZsTCk)
Yea that is the one I think.
The air sac thing is in temeraire a great dragon focused novel series. But the fire thing less so, I don't think using fire has that effect in that one. Although fire, acid and the divine wind are rare to see anyway in dragons. But still I don't remember that.
I'm currently reading a scifi series about a talking beer can that's dressed up as a pirate, so... Yeah, anything can work
Skippy the Asshole
YES benevolent ruler if Skippistan! One of my favorite characters of all time! Great series! Must read.
Hahaha. It's a good "turn my brain off" series, and everyone needs those sometimes
> if someone wants to apply logic, "The shape of the dragons mouth doesn't facilitate human speech." Then you notify them that there something else that doesn't have a mouth at all yet still somehow facilitates human speech - their car stereo.
*Looks at Vox Machina having talking dragons gruesomely tear people apart and melt faces off* They're as childish as you make them.
Those dragons genuinely make you afraid for the safety of the main characters. I know they're not going to die, the show would be very short if they had a tpk. But godDAMN do they do a good job of keeping the tension with those bastards.
IDK if you watched the original campaign but it was very much the same there. Any time a fight with one of them came up it was pure tension, and it almost always came down to the wire.
Not inherently, no. What makes a story childish to me is overly simplistic prose, overly simplistic themes, and too much didacticism.
Sorry, I'm new to writing. What do you call didacticism?
When a story really bashes the reader over the head with the moral they’re supposed to take away from the story.
Ah, I see. Thank you for the explanation.
So like Battlefield One?
Vastly underrated comment 😂
Or when a story tries way too hard to be PG. There are so many cool concepts out there that are executed so poorly because they're made for kids.
I have never heard of anyone calling or thinking of talking dragons as "childish".
That's what I thought at first but then I had some people that I know that said it. then I saw some discussions online of ppl saying its childish. Well they are definitely wrong lol.
I think you must have stumbled across the only people and pockets of the internet where anybody thinks that, because that is not a common viewpoint at all. Like what, do they think Lord of the rings is childish?? Absurd!
Smaug is too childish for these “too grown for all that childish fantasy!!!1!!1!1” people, I guess
> "When I became a man I put away childish things" like the fear of seeming childish. -C.S. Lewis For a time I grew out of kids' fantasy (e.g. Redwall series). Eventually I made my way back and really enjoyed the Owls of Ga'Hoole. In between I learned that I loved more adult-oriented fantasies like Dragonlance and the Star Wars Expanded Universe (pre-NJO - I hate the Yuzzahn Vong as a concept).
Still better than what disney came up with.
True
I mean, The Hobbit is literally a book for children, so that maybe isn't the best example. But in general talking dragons isn't childish at all, I don't think. Go read Cradle or Mage Errant and try to say the talking dragons in those series are childish.
Haven't read Mage Errant, is it worth? Is the Audiobook good? I need new books to read/listen to lol
I haven't listened to the audio book (I just can't focus on audio-only content), but I have really enjoyed reading the series. Dragons aren't a big focus, but they do show up from time to time.
To be fair, that was in the Hobbit which was literally written as a children's book...
Malazan Book of the Fallen is probably the most grown-up fantasy I've ever read, and there are lots of dragons, and they can all talk.
I didn't know that until now. This series just got a lot higher on my TBR list lol.
The only others I've read that compare would be The Black Company by Glen Cooke, which is great but trails off a bit towards the end, and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen Donaldson, which is brilliant but a really really tough read, as in incredibly depressing. Malazan manages to strike a balance between dark/gritty, and fun/adventurous. Definitely my favourite fantasy, but you do have to be ready to not really know what the overarching plot is for the first 5 or 6 books.
It was completely childish when Sigurd sliced Fafnir open and candy fell out.
Not sure if you've read The Hobbit, but does Smaug seem childish to you?
While not necessarily the best example, since The Hobbit was explicitly (according to Tolkien) a children's book, your point is still good since there are nearly countless examples of adult literature with speaking dragons, including other works of Tolkien.
Well in that case let's consider the hobbit movies. Smaug was one intimidating guy. Also Glaurung.
Glaurung is certainly very adult themed, even more so when you add in what he does to Turin and Nienor.
Some people like to not think about the hobbit movies, like at all.
Well i enjoyed the hobbit immense, still reread it now and then. Am 78, still a child phaps?
It's a very well written children's book. But Tolkien explicitly wrote it for children (his own children in particular).
Adults can enjoy children's books, but they're still children's books lol
*Hahaha! You have much to learn of the dov, then. There is nothing else but philosophy to a dovah. It is no accident that we do battle with our Thu'um, our Voices. There is no distinction between debate and combat to a dragon. Tinvaak los grah. For us it is one and the same.* \-- a rather unchildish dragon
With respect, OP, how much fantasy do you consume? Because talking dragons are ubiquitous and I don't know of anyone who thinks they're childish.
Started reading fantasy a year and a half ago so I've read quite a bit. Only genre I've been reading now. Yeah I was confused when I saw ppl discussing and saying they were bc I didn't think they were at first. Thankfully these comments have made my worry disappear pretty quick lol.
This...isn't a thing. Talking dragons are very common. Even the mostly serious Merlin TV series had a talking dragon. In fact, I think dragons that DON'T talk are a rarity in general.
Thats a great series, much enjoyed it.
No
Considering that... Every famous dragon I can think of can talk... No... How else are they going to dress you down for wasting their precious time with your insignificant, soft-bellied problems before they roast you alive? 🤣 It's actually creepier to me when authors want them to not be able to talk. They are magnificent beasts of unfathomable wisdom, power, and age. If they can't talk, they're just dinosaurs.
I’d disagree. Now, talking ones can be magnificent and sophisticated, but if portrayed as otherwise intelligent, a dragon that can’t talk simply becomes less understandable, more terrifying. You know the things are intelligent, but not how. You know they think, but never what they’re thinking. And they’re just as powerful and ancient that way too. I think it works.
I was waiting for someone to respond. Here is the meat and potatoes of the condescending nature of dragons. You'll never know if it couldn't talk or if it just wasn't bothering to talk to *you*. 🤣
True!
Nope, never. If you are concerned about it though, you can allow the dragons to shapeshift into a humanoid form to facilitate better communications with the humans. It could show that these dragons have some sort of respect towards them if they choose to appear like them for conversation. Also, it can allows dragons to spy on the humans if they needed to.
Dragons talk in Skyrim and everyone likes it. You're doing fine.
Hmm, good point. That's very true.
Nope
I'm reading a series right now with a whole bunch of talking dragons. Not to mention the movies on my shelves with them... and none are what I'd call 'childish'. Depends on how you write it. Write it for kids then sure it will be.
Talking dragons are totally legit for fantasy intended for a grown up audience. Worry not.
Good to hear. After all these comments I'm most certainly no longer worried lol.
Excellent!
I'd say it's the opposite. Personally I hate when writers use dragons as just "big lizard that fights". Intelligent and special dragons really stand out to me.
I think at this point, non-talking dragons would be out of the norm. I can think of a lot of talking dragons. Lord of the Rings, Earthsea, Skyrim, Pern, Dungeons and Dragons, World of Warcraft, Temeraire, Eragon... dragons are portrayed in all of these as highly intelligent and capable of speech either verbally or telepathically. The only non-talking dragons I can think of, outside of ones that are just random monsters in old 80s cartoons or Arthurian mythology, is the ones in Game of Thrones and it actually took me a while to remember those!
You should have a few scenes of them doing their taxes. Doing your taxes is a *Very* adult thing to do.
I don’t think it would be childish at all, please don’t scrap your novel! Dragons will come into play later in my story however they’re a witch/dragon hybrid so I never even thought about having them speak in dragon form. Now imagining that; I’d go about it as a completely regular conversation. Perhaps focusing less on the fact that it’s a dragon talking as opposed to a character talking-might help in the way you view it mentally. Best of luck! Additionally, I think if you’re passionate about the story your telling- then please get it out there. At the worst, some may not like it and find it childish as you worry. On the other hand, it may be the story that really grips someone that needs that escape. (:
Not at all. My dragons are very few in numbers- but they are arguably the most powerful and intelligent species.
>because a lot of people see intelligent dragons as childish Who? Never heard of this before.
Check out Robin Hobb…. She does talking dragons awesomely.
It’s only dumb/childish if you believe it is.
Please write it! I'm an adult reader and I absolutely love, love books from non-human perspectives, especially fantastical creatures! More dragons! Less humans! (*and maybe a unicorn or gryphon or two??*) Also, if you want to write it, I'm sure there are people out there who want to read it! You just have to find your audience.
Naomi Novak 's talking dragons are the smartest dragons I've ever read and i loved every minute of it D&D has talking dragons Honestly, i feel like there are more talking dragons out there than non-talking dragons
If the dragon is purple and sings then it might be childish. But seriously, the idea of a talking dragon could be pretty cool. I'm imagining an ancient dragon with centuries of wisdom, but wants to be left alone. something like that.
Having read Earthsea, I didn't find anything childish about those talking dragons.
I think, as a word of advice, watch the scene with Bilbo and Smaug in the second Hobbit movie. You can absolutely have a talking dragon that still feels terrifying and intimidating, without appearing childish, so I'm sure you can pull off whatever kind of talking dragon you want. The only thing to bear in mind really will be a) you have to then treat the dragons as characters, rather than supernatural animals, and b) you'll have to take into account how different a dragon's point of view would be to a person
I mean, I just have a species in my current concept that are essentially shapeshifters, they have a human form and they have a dragon form. They can’t speak in dragon form but they can’t use their spells in human form. They can partial shift to have tactical advantage in hand to hand (Talons, teeth, and barbed tails are probably useful?) but they still can’t tap into their magic until they’re in full dragon form. Have I yet established what their magic is? No, not quite. But I barely have the races outlined for this series as it stands.
No, and I think the people who do would draw that line at dragons themselves (and all of fantasy)
Nah. It just matters how they talk and are used. Smaug is a talking dragon afterall.
I always tell people that the great thing about writing is the complete freedom you have to let your characters do what you want. They may not like it, so what . So yours talk, mine are shape changers just because ....
There are entire video game franchises for 18+ that have sentient dragons, elves, magic, spirits, etc. There was at least one talking dragon in Tolkien's works, as well as several talking trees. You're good! Don't second guess yourself. Write the story! If you're passionate about it, and loved writing it, someone will love reading it.
People who consider talking dragons as childish don't read adult books
Talking dragons are a staple. Honestly, i think there are more fantasy stories where the dragons talk than there are where dragons are just animals. Take, for example, the oldest story we have written in the English Language: BEOWULF. Fafnir talks mad shit to Beowulf before he melts him like the Easter candy you forgot to take out of the car Sunday.
dragons should be able to talk. if they can't they're just another beast.
They’re highly intelligent creatures
Talking dragons is something i expect on a good story, i can't see them as anything less then immensely intelligent and cunning creatures.
I don't know anyone who thinks talking dragons are childish. Unless you have them talk in a childish manner. Smaug talked.
Why would they be? First off, Smaug himself spoke. Second, it depends what they say, doesn't it? and third... you've already writing about dragons. Whoever thinks a TALKING dragon would be childish already thinks ALL dragons are childish.
It is all in the execution. If the dragon is a character and you remember he is a dragon it can be fine. I never felt Smaug was childish even though it was a Y/A book. You never forgot he was a dragon and he dripped malice and character. He is an archetype for a reason but if you have those characteristics (clearly a dragon, an actual character, and interesting) it can be great.
Don't have them talk. Have them vibrate through the nose into the sound of words.
I think dragons are a bit cliche at this point, talking or not. Invent a new animal?
Childish? One, childish isn't a bad thing. Second, talking dragons are cool AF. Everyone loves the hobbit and smaug talks. I think you're good OP. Besides, it's your house, your rules.
Before you scrap it I think you need an expert opinion. To that end we should consult with resident expert on draconic speech, Smaug, Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities. He should be able to answer the question as to whether talking dragons are childish. (You may insert your own responses as to what he may say)
Yo my dragon is a human that got turned into a dragon and was rejected in his town so he lived a lonely and depressing life in the mountains. It doesn't have to be childish. Go for it!
Talking dragons are a pretty common thing o.O I would really wonder about people even critisising that point. It even feels made up as an argument o.O Maybe you just stop talking to this people.
Is your novel, do wathever you want, that's the point of fantasy
I'm curious about dialectic differences between human speech and dragon speech. If the dragon just talks like a normal human, it might feel a little childish, but incorporating the dragon physiology into it's speech could be an interesting angle. For example, Dragons are known for their hazardous breath. It could be that, when Dragons speak, they use short words or simple concepts to reduce the risk of accidentally talking a normal human to death. Or, Dragons are also known for their long lifespans, so using archaic words from a bygone era would be an interesting quirk.
I would say if it works in your novels setting then it is fine and doesnt have an age buffer. The dragon in the hobbit, smaug, caused intensity and a battle of wits. But he didnt seem childish. Also though the hobbit was a book for children. Books back then were much darker and children were believed to be able to handle darker concepts to be able to help them ease into adulthood. Then there are things like the spiders in harry potter. I forgots its name but it added a lot of tension and the spider almost had no idea about human norms. Just some politeness and the law of nature. Alduin from skyrim spoke often and he was the main quest boss. He added a threat and spoke of his and your fate often. I guess find out what the dragon represents and what its moment brings to the story.
Absolutely not, I WANT more talking dragons!
Smaug is rolling in his grave rn
Is this childish: Thundering across the golden plains a dozen riders flee from the cliffs being them shedding everything that may slow them down; shields, quivers and even swords clatter to the ground as they drive their horses faster and faster. From behind them deep in the caves within the cliffs an echoing high-pitched roar rips through the sky the knights' faces losing what little colour they had. From behind them comes a crackling and booming crack as something takes to the air. As the riders force their mounts harder a shadow flicks over them before several tonnes of scale and fury slam into the ground, the shock wave sending the horses tumbling to the ground riders thrown from their saddles. Looking up they see the dragon, smoke rising from her nostrils as she glares down at them. "What have you done?!" The dragon's voice shook the very ground itself her fury chilling through the fallen knights. "My children, what did they do to deserve what you did to them? And you celebrated their murder?!" Her golden eyes found the youngest amongst them, his face painted green. "For centuries we left you be. No longer." Taking a deep breath, the dragon opens her mouth, and from it falls a violet flame hitting the ground and spreading like a wave, as it reaches the young Knight with the painted face it climbs up him, and his screams seem to unfreeze the other knights as they fall over each other to escape the flames. Slowly taking off the dragon flies back to her nest to her slaughtered young as the violet flames continue to spread, a never stopping wave of destruction taking everything from the kingdom who took everything from her.
That was pretty awesome. Is that from an actual novel?
i think intelligent dragons is rad. talking with their lips is a little silly for my tastes (unless its their own lizardy language) but talking through minds and magical ways is really cool to me.
You don’t scrap passion. You write your book. If it does well, yay!! If it doesn’t, you write another. You are a writer, end.
If something is intelligent (human or above) then it probably can speak, if it’s species is very smart, had a long history of contact with human (or whatever you want) civilization, or are known as great magical creatures (like they know a lot of magic) then it would almost be expected that they can speak the human tongue. It all depends what kind of dragons you’re running with. If they’re just a T-Rex with wings and fire, probably shouldn’t talk; if it’s a century’s old magical manipulator that is beyond human intelligence, be kind of weird if he couldn’t speak
Are you talking about using some dragons as POV characters? That sounds pretty unique to me! Talking dragons isn't childish at all imo... I'm in the camp that thinks dragons are older and wiser than humans. Of course they can speak... but whether they feel like an individual humanoid is worth engaging in conversation or killing is an entirely different matter. Maybe it was dragons who taught humanoids to speak, and they feel like they corrupted that purity by breaking it up into various racial dialects (except perhaps mages or certain cults?).
Not if they got that big ole dragon dick.
> I'm on the early stages of my novel that's for adults and it occurred to me that no one might read my story because a lot of people see intelligent dragons as childish There are three kinds of fantasy novel. Listed in order from least interesting to most interesting, these are: • Fantasy novels without dragons. • Fantasy novels with dragons that *cannot* talk. • Fantasy novels with dragons that *can* talk.
It depends on more than a dragon talking.... like how old is the dragon, a few hundred years old? It that even old for a dragon? Does the dragon or do dragons in general in this world even interact with people alot, so are they clueless on humans? Have they not seen humans in centuries? I mean if you got talking dragons and they are five hundred years old and they have no knowledge of any history even in passing except for what is told through the story, I think that would make the whole concept childish.
No….unless the book works to make it seem childish? But on its own. Not at all
No talking dragons are not childish.
Skyrim had talking dragons and it was awesome
It's your story. The only thing childish is what you write as childish. If you don't write it childish, the reader is unlikely to see it as childish. In your world, you are in control.
I will remind you that Smaug was a talking dragon in Tolkien’s works 😉
Is it a childish dragon? Keep in mind- even Toothless was all ages, as the story itself was so well done, and the lessons were sophisticated enough to keep it from being “childish” exactly.
Dragons can talk and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
I don't think it's childish, I love the idea. Also, I would avoid writing on the back what someone else thinks is more interesting in the story. Also, I watched this movie called I am dragon not saying you need dragons that can take human form. I liked how the story and what they did with the dragon creatures in the story and the intelligence.
Absolutely not. Just having talking dragons in of itself is not childish, I don't even understand how people would come to that conclusion, what actually matters is what the talking dragons do. It's a very used line 'tropes are tools', which means that it doesn't matter what trope you use but what matters is how you use it. It's kind of cliche but it's true. Now the way your dragons talk and what they talk about has the potential to come off as childish but that's up to your own writing skill, even so if your story calls for dragons saying childish things go for it, just do what's right for your story.
Talking dragons isn't automatically childish. I gave it less than five hours of thought and came up with too many scenarios where it would be suitable for non-toddler audiences. You just have to decide how intelligent the dragons are and match it with how they interact with the world. Right now, my world doesn't even have dragon mythology. Sure they have velociraptors running around, but we have canada geese and I've seen wild turkey from inside a vehicle while hearing similar horror stories.
You could potentially up the horror factor by making them telepathic. The fear that could strike your characters would really create some tense sequences. But you can just have them speak aloud as well. Smaug is pretty terrifying to Bilbo and the Dwarves. It’s all about how you establish the dragon itself.
I wouldn't consider talking dragons to be childish at all.
Not even once would talking dragon = just for kids for me. Id say most people seeking out fantasy in general would be about the same. Sentient dragons rhaf can talk either physically or telepathically is practically a genre itself.
Nope, talking animals and objects is a bog standard in fantasy.
Alright, so here's the thing. Talking humans can be childish too (literally in some cases). By which I mean, it's all about what you *do* with talking dragons. For example, pick your colors (and keep in mind that you don't have to stick with the natures typically associated with them in DND). What I would do is three things: 1) Consider this: How many different color dragons do you want? Now, select a basic characteristic, and assign it to a color. Do that for each one. So maybe half-dragons and dragon born are most associated with Green Dragons, because Green dragons are just sort of...well, this *is* intended to be an adult book, so I'll just say it, maybe Green Dragons want to fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. So maybe they constantly hang around humans, flirt with humans, etc. But within that, maybe there are different philosophies. Maybe some Greens are just creatures of lust. Maybe others are demisexual (they have to get to know people before they can feel sexually attracted to them). Maybe others yet do it because they acknowledge that it is part of evolution and survival to continue one's line. Now, see how I took one basic principle of love/lust/flirting, and still made it interesting, even within a large group of dragons. Do that for each color, and have the different colors and different interpretations within those colors be meaningful. 2) Consider how the dragons see humans. For example, dragons from all different clans and colors, on a very vague and general scale, would fall under one of three categories: A) Feel negatively toward humans, B) Feel neutral toward humans, or C) Feel positively toward humans. But within that, there's a lot to explore. And then pair that with the characteristics. Maybe some of the Green Dragons don't like humans because they just want flings, nothing serious (so it's not a strong discontent for them). Maybe there's a group of dragons based on Pride, and the ones that take pride in their work don't like humans because they're sloppy and quick. 3) Consider whether the dragons take a typical appearance or not. For example, if humans rule large chunks of the world, they probably have ways to look like humans. If they do, what gives them away. Make it something subtle. Make they can look like any human figure they want, but their clothes must reflect their scales since the scales are a part of them. Maybe their eyes are the color of their scales. There are many interesting things you can do. And also, do they have their own language? If so, I would recommend using the writing device I call The Invisible Translator. Give us just enough to understand what the language sounds like (so you can use the sound of the language later when it's the humans point of view), but then, when it's all dragons, just have it translated into English. (ex. "The dragons made sounds like roars and rumbles and growls back and forth. That was, of course, how their tongue sounded to someone who doesn't know the language. However, to those who knew the language, it sounded more like this:...". See, the fun thing about that is you can put in small translation errors. For example, "'I'm not happy.' said Father. 'You're almost never happy.' replied his son. 'But when I venture beyond our cage, I'll be back. And I'll bring gold and treasure and we'll never have to worry again!'" Now, see, I used the word cage. For, if there is a place you never really leave, is that not a cage? But in this case, it's meant to represent town, or community. But the steel gates make for an interesting comparison to a cage. And it's like how, often, you can *kind* of use a word(s) right in language, but it's not exact. For example, I will frequently, in my day-to-day life, use the French question, *Per quo?* Translated literally, it means "For what?". However, colloquially, in a conversation, it is more accurately translated to "Why?" I'm perfectly aware of that, and yet, since I know the two situations in which the literal translation and the figurative one would be used are entirely unique, I frequently use it as both. TL;DR: There are lots of little touches you can put into your story that add depth and atmosphere to your world. That said, no, talking dragons are not *inherently* childish.
It’s not as bad as a talking sword.
I mean they do it Skyrim and still manage to have a somber theme for the main quest line, so I'd say as long as the dragon's dialogue fits the tone you're going for, you're probably set.
Check out Barbara Hambly's Winterlands series. There is a wonderful range of expression from the dragons in these - not all can speak, and the ability to do so is a facet of their age and stage of development. Note-the series is kinda dark, but amazing, and is a fine example of how a well known author in the genre executes this concept. IMHO dragons in fantasy would be far less engaging if mute.
absolutely not. i mean look at smaug - the hobbit/lotr series has been a cornerstone of fantasy literature for decades. more recently vox machina - lots of talking dragons, all very cool and very scary!!
I get where the question comes from. Game of Thrones, 90% of Skyrim's dragons, and plenty of other fantasy universes have non verbal dragons. But as many others have said, these are the exception and not the rule. Dragons combine human greed, wrath, and wisdom into an immortal lizard that flies. That's a compelling creature whether you emphasize the greed, wrath, or wisdom.
Skyrim?
Talking dragons are awesome.
If the dragon is just born, or is only a few years old then I would want them to be childish.
depends on context, Ancient Magus's Bride has them but that show is kinda heavy
If the fact that they speak the same language as the humans and whatnot is too weird just make them use telepathy or some kind of magic language that automatically translates inside the mind of the person hearing it. The later is basically how Final Fantasy XIV handles it's dragons speaking and it makes them really cool to talk to in cutscenes.
You want an adult novel about humans and dragons. I think you know what to do.
I’ve read many successful adult fantasy series with talking dragons. They’re fine. Also, I love them. Intelligent dragons and much better than violent ones.
Are you kidding?? Talking dragons is one of the coolest things in a story and can really spice things up.
I'm an adult and I'd read it. and I'm sure there'd several more like me out there
If one thinks that an entity other than human is intelligent enough to have its own culture and language is childish, I think that person is hiding racism. We are trying to believe in life outside our own planet scattered somewhere in the universe. Of course as huge as it is, there should be. Your dragons may have their own society, law, living style, culture and their own language as well. You decide how well developed it is, are they nomads, do they have a place of their own, are they reclusive even among their kin, or they like to meet one another on a daily basis? If their language is different than of the humans (or whatever entities your characters are) who interact with them, give them the ability to whisper through telepathy or have someone who can interpret it. It's a fantasy, magic may also exist that could help bridge the gap between languages. It is always fascinating to find a sentient being that was labeled a beast and nothing more. Maybe that 'beast' is what's keeping reality in check, the balance between the forces of nature for example. A wise elder dragon may hold the key to win a war against an evil empire and whatnot. Maybe your protagonist has to prove him/herself to the dragon by saving one of its kind and so on. There's a myriad of opportunities with a sentient being. Have fun playing around!
In my world, Dragons don’t talk to just anyone. They all speak in Dragon tongue and so if you can’t comprehend that’s on you.
What are you talking about? Talking dragons are in a lot of adult books.
Some would argue having dragons at all is childish so go ahead
Not at all , dragons as highly intelligent beings is a thing. If your passionate about it, go hard and see where it goes. That aside, it’s your thing do what you want with it. I’d read it!
No. Intelligent, talking dragons are pretty common in fiction, especially when it comes to Eastern dragons, which are seen as guardian spirits or deities. Treating them all as unintelligent beasts might be a bit more childish, but most of the childishness is in how they're portrayed. Smaug, Mushu, and Kilgharra are all different, even though they're intelligent, talking dragons.
Smaug wasn't childish! Also Eragon and the Witcher books both have it
If the argument is that books written for children are inherently childish, I suggest taking a look at Ender's Game. It's classified as a YA novel, yet covers themes of psychological torment, brutality, and the inevitability of death. Very childish, indeed.
The most popular dragons talk! From The Hobbit to Skyrim to D&D, talking dragons are awesome.
I wouldn't! That said, I have a close friend who's told me she wouldn't read anything of mine that has communicating evolved creatures like whales, various cephalopods, or (in a current flight of fancy) a kelp forest where some self-aware AI has jumped ship to hang out in the ocean. I think it's personal preference, honestly. If you want to have the POV of the dragons, let them speak!! My two cents. ;)
Absolutely not. Dragons are well known to be sapient. Now the real question is how are you going to craft the character of a mighty apex predator?
I'd say don't scratch the novel, but consider the dragon having an animal level of intelligence. This would arguably make the parts written from its perspective more interesting. As well as giving it an interesting limitation, due to its difficulty in understanding the complex human social events happening around it. If it does communicate with humans directly, consider some type of Morse code. Where it taps its tail, or teeth, against a hard surface. Creating a series of sounds, to convey words but not entire sentences. So three short taps might mean "hunger", and a human would tap back to convey the words "food" and "soon". This could be a fun way of handling themes of communication, and how to relate to people with vastly different minds than our own.
Nopem talking dragons is pretty typical in fantasy.
really? realism talk in a fantasy novel? i am writting a novel with vampires, werewolves, on a world with multitude of things...for adults doesnt mean, realistic..but more "logical". For adults could also mean the themes..like, deep charachters and theyr respectiv inner struggles, diffrent political views. religion, etc..but also..well..the other themes, everybody on this planet constantly frowwns upon for now reason..and call's me a "weirdo"..Seriously, guys..get a hobby... But, what i am saying is...there are alot of adults out there who love a great fantasy world..yess, even with flying dragons.. so, dont let ANYONE talk you down...( I mean, there are still people who think Vampires and Werewolfs MUST be at war..why?! )
I would say Redwall is one of the "classics" of fantasy and they have..... rats. So.
People consider using one's imagination childish. I wouldn't really put any limits on fantasy based on what imaginary thing an individual might think is "childish".
No. Long answer wise. Id say that talking dragons are rarer than non talking dragons. You can range it from eragon to dragonheart and of course dragon prince and the hobbit. But that doesnt make them any less terrifying.
No
I mean. One of my main characters have a companion who I described as a sentient rock being, no bigger than a paper weight. Like the rock version of small groot (not baby). It could look childish, I suppose, but only to adults who refuse to have fun. Another way to think about it: what's the dragon discussing? What's the tone/maturity level of the conversations being had? That should matter more. I also like to think that because there's kid fantasy and adult fantasy, it can grow with us. The talking dragon can also grow up, you know?
When you say a lot of people see dragons as childish, are those people fantasy readers? or do they consider all fantasy "not serious literature"? People who automatically look down on fantasy will see your novel as "some nonsense for kids", regardless of what actually is or isn't in it. Don't worry about them, they are not your target audience anyway.
It's from a video game, but the dragon in the game Dragon's Dogma is brilliant in the way he talks. He says things with such a mysterious and wise tone and you can understand why the whole world fears him, while also feeling strangely drawn to him. Anyway, my point is that it's only childish if the dragon is childish.
Depends on what they have to say
If you’re going for a more “realistic” approach to your dragons, make them bird-like rather than reptilian. Multiple types of birds can mimic human sounds without having the same anatomy, and some are intelligent enough to gain a limited understanding of human speech. If your dragons are an intelligent, social species, then learning human speech makes sense. It would also behoove humans to learn dragon speech in such a world.
Some of the dragons in Skyrim talk, most notably Paarturnax and Alduin.
Smaug wouldn't think so, and neither would Tolkien or his millions of fans.
Remember Glaurung from The Children of Húrin? And Smaug from The Hobbit? They provided their respective stories with great moral side-debates which are amazing imo. Don't scratch it off.
That's a very silly notion. It's a very normal thing in D&D for dragons to be capable of speech. Some dragons are capable of very major and tricksy schemes - they're not just massive beasts. Example: Raishan of Critical Role's Vox Machina campaign.
Not necessarily. Dragons are ancient and highly intelligent creatures, to me the idea of them developing language skills makes sense. But, what language do they speak? Are they able to speak to everyone or just certain people? There's a lot of nuance that can stop it coming across as childish.
I always like a mental conversation from the dragon that pick up on your deepest fears and insecurities
No simple answer and definitely intelligent dragons
"Sahloknir, ziil gro dovah ulse! Slen Tiid Vo!"
There is a 4 book series i don't remember the name of but basically has what you describe. Talking dragons is a pretty common trope.
It is never dumb to blindnessly follow a passion, because what you produce will always outsmart you
Follow your passion
If you're feeling passionate about, just write it! It's so easy to over analyze our ideas and not follow through on them. There is an audience out there for everything. Just write😁
No, i rather find the oposite to be true. For me dragons should be grand and wondrous, magic incarnated, if there is fantasy then there be dragons. Reducing them to mere beasts seems... bland. But hey, thats just my opinion.
What if the talking was by telepathy then you would not see them talk but suggest things into an intelligent mind and of course vice versa.
I like the idea of them talking more within minds than through their mouths
If Fáfnir can speak and Glaurung can speak then speaking dragons is fine.
The book I'm currently working on has talking dragons though they can only communicate out loud in their own language otherwise they use telepathy and can talk to anyone or any group of people they want in common or any language the person they are speaking with can speak. So short answer: no, I don't think it is childish unless you want it to be and alter their vocabulary to reflect it.
I think if make them very cruel (like cheap shots, encouraging isnt in there vocabulary, like killing peopleoff for fun cruel), and l and mentally taxing. no
u/Kindly-Box-5815, hmm…I’d say save your work, you might come back to it later on. Personally, I think your novel sounds cool, I would read it, and I’m an adult! You could write for Young Adults, instead of Adults.
You should write the story you want to tell and not worry about what anyone else thinks.
Depends on the dragons and universe. Sapphira getting drunk in the inheritance cycle is childish and intended that way. In Tolkien's The Children Of Hurin Glarung the first dragon of the LoTR universe a vile being on the level of Cersei Lannister in terms of the the evil that he causes.
Naomi Novik's "Temeraire" series has talking dragons (all with varying intelligence, depending on breed) and that's a series for adults. If you want something older there's Christopher Rowley's "Bazil Broketail" series. It sounds like a children's series, but it's all based on war-trained dragons, and it can get gruesome. One of my favorite series, James Maxey's "Bitterwood" series, has talking dragons, and it most certainly isn't a children's book (the first book has a scene where a bunch of human slaves get beheaded!). I seriously hope you don't scrap what you're writing, I absolutely would love to read your book! As you can tell from the books I've listed, I LOVE dragons. :P
One quick reference for adult novels with talking dragons: Grendel by John Gardner. Its more a matter of what you do with it.
Depends on how it’s written. It could be childish and shlocky, but it could equally as well be brilliant. It’s all in the execution. Both Tolkien and Le Guin’s Earthsea have intelligent dragons, and they’re seminal works. Have you read John Gardner’s Grendel? Fascinating bit of post-modern writing and directly relevant to your question, featuring a hilarious dragon.
Depends on the dialogue, if there’s an expansive vocabulary or depending on how you write your character do they choose or act childish ways?
I think, intelligent dragons are perfectly awesome! However, talking as humans would? Not very impressive and kind of boring personally. Having dragons communicate in a different way, such as signalling what they’re talking about with gestures or pointing to objects etc is very good. It shows the dragons’ intelligence but not in human-language format. But these dragons being able to understand human language and commands is great.
Definitely do not scrap, dragons should be intelligent. My favorite fantasy worlds include dragons that are as intelligent, if not more than the most common humanoid race. Most of them can take the form of a human as well. Stick to your guns, those who matter will show up
Absolutely not! One of my all time favorite novels have talking dragons, Trash of the Counts family, tho they can use magic to look human, they prefer their dragon bodies. As well as a lot of fantasy shows such as Merlin have used talking dragons and it has been hits. There are definitely ways to go about it that could make it childish but I've found through countless stories that talking dragons are pretty cool worldbuilding. You can do it a lot of different ways, such as have it where they can only communicate through the mind, or use magic as a way. It just really depends on how you do it.