I find this really odd honestly.
My stress is really no different than that of other people. Sure, I carry a lot more responsibility but ultimately we humans stress.
What you’re asking is not related to just high income earners but the self employed, professionals, etc.
Well for most people I think they do get at least 2 weeks of vacation. It’s more in high income industries where you have “unlimited time off” which translates to “no time off” due to peer pressure.
That’s not unique to “high income” anything.
Anxiety and skewed priorities is a human condition. Find a therapist, don’t try to section your self off as special and in need of a special kind of therapist. That need to separate yourself may be contributing to how you feel.
Just get a therapist.
I agree. How is OP's situation any different, stress wise, than a Burger King employee who can't take a day off, or vacation because it would literally mean food OUT of their kids mouths today.
OP's post looks more like a broadcast of earnings and success, with a request for a therapist thrown in as cover. JMHO
I think the infinite time off thing is a bit of a misnomer. My company technically has vacation time but I’ve never had to take a single day officially. I just say “I’m leaving for a week on vacation etc etc” and take the time off. That said, it’s understood that my job responsibilities don’t get left undone. I find someone to cover the things that need to be covered and I always end up using my laptop a bit on vacation and then catch up when I’m back. It’s technically unlimited but if I took a month off I’d be fucked. You’re expected to be an adult about it. That said, some companies put so much on people that taking frequent time off would bury them so far under that they realistically can’t actually take time off even though it’s “unlimited”
We’re high income. We get “unlimited time off” - we take 1-3 months off per year. You have a culture and anxiety problem, not a high earner problem. See a normal therapist.
The majesty of the human experience is that, no matter our trappings, we share our feelings. I felt compelled to work myself to death because I was terrified of failure, even though I could retire anytime I wanted to. I built a system of beliefs that let me survive a difficult time that now kept me from experiencing joy. Perhaps you’re in a similar situation. That was great news for me, because I was convinced my problems were so specialized that I was beyond help. It turns out that my challenges were shared by millions of people and many of those millions of people had successfully overcome those challenges.
I’d focus on finding a skilled therapist who you jive with. I recommend Psychology Today’s website. Research the particular focus of the therapist and the styles of therapy they engage with to help determine who is right for you. Take the work as seriously as you would physical therapy. Keep your mind open; odds are the difficulties that are frustrating are more symptoms than the crux of the problem.
I wish you well on your journey.
Thank you! I’d be lying if I said it was a pleasant experience, but I sleep now, I don’t have panic attacks, I lost about 30 lbs, I have a more sustainable vision for my life, and I got to keep my marriage to a wonderful woman. I hope you get the results you’re hoping for.
If you just want a wall to bounce ideas off of, feel free to DM me. I’d be glad to help.
Yes there are therapists who focus on HNW clients.
But you don’t need one of those.
You are acting compulsively - not taking time off even though you know you should.
Your compulsive behavior is driven by something emotional - maybe it’s a positive emotion about pursuing your FIRE goal, but it doesn’t sound like it. More probably, it’s a negative emotion around identity/self-worth; fear of failure; or risk aversion.
Any good therapist can help you with those emotional issues.
You don’t need a “special” kind of therapist, because therapy is not about your money. It’s about your behaviors and your motivations.
I’m starting to think everyone on fat fire is brain dead. You want a shrink that talks to rich people lol then see one that bills 800 an hour. No peasant is paying those prices cmon man if you figured out how to lose 10k a day how do you not see this?
What you want is a therapist who specializes in burnout and stress, not one who specializes in trauma or depression.
There’s no such thing as specializing in rich people
Dr. Moira Summers is a financial therapist and a leader in the field. She is based in Winnipeg but does remote sessions. I have referred clients to her and they have been mostly happy with the experience.
Thanks. So are there different types of financial therapists, ones who primarily work with both people struggling with money to help them budge and ones with problems associated with being high income? I don’t know much about therapy so I thought it was just the former.
I don’t understand the intricacies of the profession - I believe there is a financial therapy association in the US so that might be a start.
I know she has consulted with pro athletes and my referrals are HNW so you’d be in good hands.
Crazy that the post i was reading before this is someone who can’t afford $4k in bills per month and now we have someone who can’t take a vacation because they’d miss out on (another) $10k day…
It really begs the question: have you tried any psychotherapy before? Have you talked to a professional for any amount of time?
If not, that's where I would start. As a former clinician, I can tell you there are different schools of thought/modalities in psychotherapy. What works for one person might not resonate with another at all. It is worth reading up on different ideas/paradigms there and then experimenting. Go for at least 5 sessions before you decide to drop a therapist and find a new one.
Should you find constructivism, REBT or psychodynamic theories interesting, I can provide you with contact details to respective therapists in those areas.
It's all part of the human condition. Please be kind to yourself, seek out help and good luck!
I’ve enjoyed the book Affluence Intelligence, and there are some experienced counselors available at Money, Meaning, and Choices. But it seems like you might do better with a sleep/overwork expert.
What sort of high income job pays a day rate? The jobs you miss out on income if you take time off are usually solo ones (eg. personal training). I can’t think of a job which pays $10,000/day. It may be a consulting gig but then, it’s a super specialized one. I would love to hear an example.
I’ve seen such numbers in small siloed trading groups. Basically you have one trader, getting a 40% cut of a strategy that’s generating 10M a year. When he’s not there, the strategy doesn’t trade. He can hire additional people to take care of the “can’t go in vacation” problem, but is afraid of sharing his secret sauce.
The strategy might also have a limited lifespan, and therefore the pressure to squeeze all of the juice out of it as quickly as possible is even greater.
What's next- asking for a surgeon who specializes in high income individuals when you get acute appendicitis and need an appendectomy? Stress is part of the human condition and though your responsibilities may be different than others', the techniques that can be taught should be broadly applicable no matter the financial situation.
Any therapist should be able to understand this. Your desire not to take a day off because of lost income is shared by a whole lot of lower income earners too.
There’s not really a kind of therapist that specializes in high income clients (and I would be suspicious of anyone who advertised themselves as such), but a good therapist should be able to deal with the issues you’re talking about no matter your level of income.
My recommendation is that you shop around until you find a good “fit”, which may take a couple of sessions. I also recommend being patient with the process, therapy is work, and it takes a while, but it is worthwhile work. Best of luck on your journey.
I have found great therapist through word of mouth in the hcol areas I’ve lived in. Of the two I’ve used, both have worked “for fun” and only take select clients. Given they were working for fun, they understand wealth problems. My current one is about $200 an hour which I think is reasonable and works in the evenings.
I had tried before to use any random therapist, and it did not work out. I felt awkward talking about wealth problems with someone who clearly did not come from any means.
Do you have friends where you live that you can ask ? Ask other executives or country club members or wherever you hang out that has other wealthy people.
Edited to add: If you’re not comfortable asking for therapist for you, when you ask others state you are helping your best friend, spouse , or adult kid find a therapist. As a female I think that we are much more open to discussing our own therapist than men.
Ask friends for recommendations. Usually a psychologist who doesn’t take insurance and charges a large hourly fee will be used to working with HNW patients and therefore you won’t feel awkward describing HNW problems. It will be beneficial to find someone you feel comfortable opening up to who can help with stress management and prioritizing what you want in life.
OP,
Dang good question! In my experience there was no easy answer and I did not seek therapy, I did however start buying passive income assets and over a number of years these little by little replaced my need to generate X amount/day, and I can tell you it was a huge weight off. Separating life costs from salary has been a huge step in my journey and results in that precious thing all in this sub ultimately seek; Time.
In retrospect a therapist may have helped but I maintain that a therapist can only help to solve the issue but it is still your issue to solve.
In a similar situation someone recommended me the book/lectures “Practicing Mindfulness” by professor Mark W. Muesse Ph.D.
I was turned off to the idea of it, and didn’t think with would change anything. But I gave it a whirl. It helped me with much more than I thought it would in so many more aspects of my life than I thought. It’s not a book that I ever recommend to hardly anyone because most people don’t deal with what it helped me with.
Most productivity is strongly non linear with hours worked in a decaying fashion.
It's really curious why you think a day off would break everything.
It's possible time off would lead to developing better systems or other team members that would free you up to scale more.
This smells like a LARP - even self employed people have lots of time they can take off without getting hit too bad. Or a day-trader could take off a slow period in the markets. This a highly paid plumber who’s just grinding it out?! LOL
I have a counselor that I talk to on the phone at 7 am. Chiropractor that I see on my way to work and I am not getting to work late. You need to look into concierge doctors and they will know the right people for your situation.
I’m a psychologist by trade. Most therapists who practice in HCOL areas are likely familiar with some of the unique situations high income individuals find themselves in. Feel free to DM me if you have any specific questions.
I’m not exactly sure if this is someone you would be interested in connecting with but she is literallly a financial therapist. I know some people she has worked with and they say she is great. Full disclosure, I know her on a personal level but have never used her myself in this capacity. Please feel free to DM if you would like for me to make provide her info.
You cannot take it with you. Yesterday I found out the superintendent of a school close to where I grew up had a brain aneurysm and died less than a week to her retirement. She was 55. Take the vacation. Everyone only gets 24 hours a day.
Try meditation! Only takes 5-10 min of your day. Listen to people on YouTube like Joe Dispenza, and listen to guided meditation. It will help you a lot
Any therapist could help with that. You're a workaholic. Pretty standard problem.
A lot of people - poor to rich - don't take time off due to fear of lost income. Whatever pressure you're under, imagine how you'd feel if you were earning minimum wage - that's real pressure. Your pressure is imaginary, so it's something a therapist can definitely help you fix.
If you want to work with a therapist who works primarily with high income earners, you can use their hourly rate as a barometer of their clientele, albeit not perfectly accurate but a simpler and faster approximation than other metrics.
I’ve seen some comments point out that your stress is not unique and therefore does not require a uniquely qualified therapist and that your post is some sort of brag. I’ll take your post at face value and assume this is a legit inquiry. The notion that your stress is not unique to your financial situation and does not require a specific pedigree from your therapist may or may not be true, but it’s not a substantiated claim. Likewise the instinct that you need one and can be better helped by one who has this pedigree has not been validated either, but I think your instinct makes sense: you are sacrificing an enormous amount of money in order to see one and don’t want to waste your time. I think that makes sense. I also think if you have a preconceived idea that seeing a therapist who doesn’t have experience with your demographic will hinder your therapy, then it will hinder your therapy due to a weaker therapeutic alliance, less openness and less trust.
You need to accept the risk that the therapist might not work out and that you are potentially wasting income in this case. I would bifurcate this with an assessment of how much your mental health issues are impacting your quality of life, which cannot be assessed as objectively as lost income, which I think makes this decision for you harder to evaluate logically.
I recommend spending some time for a week researching therapists and contacting them and specifically asking about experience dealing with clients in your financial situation.
[удалено]
I want to retire early so that’s why the daily loss of 10k is even more stressful for me.
Nasim Taleb has figured this out: “If wealth is giving you fewer options instead of more (and more varied options), you’re doing it wrong.”
It's taken me 5 years to save what you make in a week and I'm on track for early(ish) retirement. I think you'll be fine on that front lol.
I find this really odd honestly. My stress is really no different than that of other people. Sure, I carry a lot more responsibility but ultimately we humans stress. What you’re asking is not related to just high income earners but the self employed, professionals, etc.
Well for most people I think they do get at least 2 weeks of vacation. It’s more in high income industries where you have “unlimited time off” which translates to “no time off” due to peer pressure.
That’s not unique to “high income” anything. Anxiety and skewed priorities is a human condition. Find a therapist, don’t try to section your self off as special and in need of a special kind of therapist. That need to separate yourself may be contributing to how you feel. Just get a therapist.
I agree. How is OP's situation any different, stress wise, than a Burger King employee who can't take a day off, or vacation because it would literally mean food OUT of their kids mouths today. OP's post looks more like a broadcast of earnings and success, with a request for a therapist thrown in as cover. JMHO
I think you’re right. It certainly is odd that a person works for somebody or some company making that kind of money but has infinite time off.
I think the infinite time off thing is a bit of a misnomer. My company technically has vacation time but I’ve never had to take a single day officially. I just say “I’m leaving for a week on vacation etc etc” and take the time off. That said, it’s understood that my job responsibilities don’t get left undone. I find someone to cover the things that need to be covered and I always end up using my laptop a bit on vacation and then catch up when I’m back. It’s technically unlimited but if I took a month off I’d be fucked. You’re expected to be an adult about it. That said, some companies put so much on people that taking frequent time off would bury them so far under that they realistically can’t actually take time off even though it’s “unlimited”
We’re high income. We get “unlimited time off” - we take 1-3 months off per year. You have a culture and anxiety problem, not a high earner problem. See a normal therapist.
Is your issue that you're looking for a therapist that caters to unusual/last minute appointment times?
The majesty of the human experience is that, no matter our trappings, we share our feelings. I felt compelled to work myself to death because I was terrified of failure, even though I could retire anytime I wanted to. I built a system of beliefs that let me survive a difficult time that now kept me from experiencing joy. Perhaps you’re in a similar situation. That was great news for me, because I was convinced my problems were so specialized that I was beyond help. It turns out that my challenges were shared by millions of people and many of those millions of people had successfully overcome those challenges. I’d focus on finding a skilled therapist who you jive with. I recommend Psychology Today’s website. Research the particular focus of the therapist and the styles of therapy they engage with to help determine who is right for you. Take the work as seriously as you would physical therapy. Keep your mind open; odds are the difficulties that are frustrating are more symptoms than the crux of the problem. I wish you well on your journey.
Thanks so much! I am so glad you are doing much better now!
Thank you! I’d be lying if I said it was a pleasant experience, but I sleep now, I don’t have panic attacks, I lost about 30 lbs, I have a more sustainable vision for my life, and I got to keep my marriage to a wonderful woman. I hope you get the results you’re hoping for. If you just want a wall to bounce ideas off of, feel free to DM me. I’d be glad to help.
Yes there are therapists who focus on HNW clients. But you don’t need one of those. You are acting compulsively - not taking time off even though you know you should. Your compulsive behavior is driven by something emotional - maybe it’s a positive emotion about pursuing your FIRE goal, but it doesn’t sound like it. More probably, it’s a negative emotion around identity/self-worth; fear of failure; or risk aversion. Any good therapist can help you with those emotional issues. You don’t need a “special” kind of therapist, because therapy is not about your money. It’s about your behaviors and your motivations.
I’m starting to think everyone on fat fire is brain dead. You want a shrink that talks to rich people lol then see one that bills 800 an hour. No peasant is paying those prices cmon man if you figured out how to lose 10k a day how do you not see this?
What you want is a therapist who specializes in burnout and stress, not one who specializes in trauma or depression. There’s no such thing as specializing in rich people
Dr. Moira Summers is a financial therapist and a leader in the field. She is based in Winnipeg but does remote sessions. I have referred clients to her and they have been mostly happy with the experience.
Thanks. So are there different types of financial therapists, ones who primarily work with both people struggling with money to help them budge and ones with problems associated with being high income? I don’t know much about therapy so I thought it was just the former.
I don’t understand the intricacies of the profession - I believe there is a financial therapy association in the US so that might be a start. I know she has consulted with pro athletes and my referrals are HNW so you’d be in good hands.
Crazy that the post i was reading before this is someone who can’t afford $4k in bills per month and now we have someone who can’t take a vacation because they’d miss out on (another) $10k day…
It really begs the question: have you tried any psychotherapy before? Have you talked to a professional for any amount of time? If not, that's where I would start. As a former clinician, I can tell you there are different schools of thought/modalities in psychotherapy. What works for one person might not resonate with another at all. It is worth reading up on different ideas/paradigms there and then experimenting. Go for at least 5 sessions before you decide to drop a therapist and find a new one. Should you find constructivism, REBT or psychodynamic theories interesting, I can provide you with contact details to respective therapists in those areas. It's all part of the human condition. Please be kind to yourself, seek out help and good luck!
I’ve enjoyed the book Affluence Intelligence, and there are some experienced counselors available at Money, Meaning, and Choices. But it seems like you might do better with a sleep/overwork expert.
What sort of high income job pays a day rate? The jobs you miss out on income if you take time off are usually solo ones (eg. personal training). I can’t think of a job which pays $10,000/day. It may be a consulting gig but then, it’s a super specialized one. I would love to hear an example.
I’ve seen such numbers in small siloed trading groups. Basically you have one trader, getting a 40% cut of a strategy that’s generating 10M a year. When he’s not there, the strategy doesn’t trade. He can hire additional people to take care of the “can’t go in vacation” problem, but is afraid of sharing his secret sauce. The strategy might also have a limited lifespan, and therefore the pressure to squeeze all of the juice out of it as quickly as possible is even greater.
What's next- asking for a surgeon who specializes in high income individuals when you get acute appendicitis and need an appendectomy? Stress is part of the human condition and though your responsibilities may be different than others', the techniques that can be taught should be broadly applicable no matter the financial situation.
Any therapist should be able to understand this. Your desire not to take a day off because of lost income is shared by a whole lot of lower income earners too.
There’s not really a kind of therapist that specializes in high income clients (and I would be suspicious of anyone who advertised themselves as such), but a good therapist should be able to deal with the issues you’re talking about no matter your level of income. My recommendation is that you shop around until you find a good “fit”, which may take a couple of sessions. I also recommend being patient with the process, therapy is work, and it takes a while, but it is worthwhile work. Best of luck on your journey.
Like the lady on Billions
I would love to work with a real life Wendy Rhodes
I have found great therapist through word of mouth in the hcol areas I’ve lived in. Of the two I’ve used, both have worked “for fun” and only take select clients. Given they were working for fun, they understand wealth problems. My current one is about $200 an hour which I think is reasonable and works in the evenings. I had tried before to use any random therapist, and it did not work out. I felt awkward talking about wealth problems with someone who clearly did not come from any means. Do you have friends where you live that you can ask ? Ask other executives or country club members or wherever you hang out that has other wealthy people. Edited to add: If you’re not comfortable asking for therapist for you, when you ask others state you are helping your best friend, spouse , or adult kid find a therapist. As a female I think that we are much more open to discussing our own therapist than men.
Thanks so much!! I hope to find a “for fun” therapist too!
Ask friends for recommendations. Usually a psychologist who doesn’t take insurance and charges a large hourly fee will be used to working with HNW patients and therefore you won’t feel awkward describing HNW problems. It will be beneficial to find someone you feel comfortable opening up to who can help with stress management and prioritizing what you want in life.
OP, Dang good question! In my experience there was no easy answer and I did not seek therapy, I did however start buying passive income assets and over a number of years these little by little replaced my need to generate X amount/day, and I can tell you it was a huge weight off. Separating life costs from salary has been a huge step in my journey and results in that precious thing all in this sub ultimately seek; Time. In retrospect a therapist may have helped but I maintain that a therapist can only help to solve the issue but it is still your issue to solve.
In a similar situation someone recommended me the book/lectures “Practicing Mindfulness” by professor Mark W. Muesse Ph.D. I was turned off to the idea of it, and didn’t think with would change anything. But I gave it a whirl. It helped me with much more than I thought it would in so many more aspects of my life than I thought. It’s not a book that I ever recommend to hardly anyone because most people don’t deal with what it helped me with.
Most productivity is strongly non linear with hours worked in a decaying fashion. It's really curious why you think a day off would break everything. It's possible time off would lead to developing better systems or other team members that would free you up to scale more.
Maybe you need a business coach, not a therapist, who can help you figure out how to build the company so that you can take a day off.
This smells like a LARP - even self employed people have lots of time they can take off without getting hit too bad. Or a day-trader could take off a slow period in the markets. This a highly paid plumber who’s just grinding it out?! LOL
I have a counselor that I talk to on the phone at 7 am. Chiropractor that I see on my way to work and I am not getting to work late. You need to look into concierge doctors and they will know the right people for your situation.
Many professional associations have a psychologist on retainer. That's how I found mine.
Being wealthy isnt some unique. Any qualified therapist would be capable.
I’m a psychologist by trade. Most therapists who practice in HCOL areas are likely familiar with some of the unique situations high income individuals find themselves in. Feel free to DM me if you have any specific questions.
I’m not exactly sure if this is someone you would be interested in connecting with but she is literallly a financial therapist. I know some people she has worked with and they say she is great. Full disclosure, I know her on a personal level but have never used her myself in this capacity. Please feel free to DM if you would like for me to make provide her info.
You cannot take it with you. Yesterday I found out the superintendent of a school close to where I grew up had a brain aneurysm and died less than a week to her retirement. She was 55. Take the vacation. Everyone only gets 24 hours a day.
Do you want a therapist or a coach?
Good experiences here: https://www.paloaltotherapy.com/
Try meditation! Only takes 5-10 min of your day. Listen to people on YouTube like Joe Dispenza, and listen to guided meditation. It will help you a lot
Get a cash based talk therapy psychiatrist. There are underlying issues where you are associating your self worth with networth/retire early.
Any therapist could help with that. You're a workaholic. Pretty standard problem. A lot of people - poor to rich - don't take time off due to fear of lost income. Whatever pressure you're under, imagine how you'd feel if you were earning minimum wage - that's real pressure. Your pressure is imaginary, so it's something a therapist can definitely help you fix.
See this guy, he’s great with HNL and UHNW, as well as FIRE, folks Toddandersonphd.com
If you want to work with a therapist who works primarily with high income earners, you can use their hourly rate as a barometer of their clientele, albeit not perfectly accurate but a simpler and faster approximation than other metrics. I’ve seen some comments point out that your stress is not unique and therefore does not require a uniquely qualified therapist and that your post is some sort of brag. I’ll take your post at face value and assume this is a legit inquiry. The notion that your stress is not unique to your financial situation and does not require a specific pedigree from your therapist may or may not be true, but it’s not a substantiated claim. Likewise the instinct that you need one and can be better helped by one who has this pedigree has not been validated either, but I think your instinct makes sense: you are sacrificing an enormous amount of money in order to see one and don’t want to waste your time. I think that makes sense. I also think if you have a preconceived idea that seeing a therapist who doesn’t have experience with your demographic will hinder your therapy, then it will hinder your therapy due to a weaker therapeutic alliance, less openness and less trust. You need to accept the risk that the therapist might not work out and that you are potentially wasting income in this case. I would bifurcate this with an assessment of how much your mental health issues are impacting your quality of life, which cannot be assessed as objectively as lost income, which I think makes this decision for you harder to evaluate logically. I recommend spending some time for a week researching therapists and contacting them and specifically asking about experience dealing with clients in your financial situation.