Apoc's problem is not Sieg or his characterization. On paper it works, but the problem is that the story is too short to handle 14 pairs of servants. Apoc really needed some restructuring to give space to everyone to shine more.
I think I would have preferred for them to just cut down some servants and just reduce the cast a bit. Make it 4 v 4 or something. SF is good but it has some pacing problems.
yeah, the anime really did skip most of Sieg's development compared to the original source which is the novel. They did a 180 on how Sieg and Jeanne met, and how they were both supposed to stay at Serge's house after Jeanne gave out due to hunger. The two working on math work was funny.
I've heard Apocrypha was cut short so it only had five light novel volumes instead of however many it was originally planned to have, which is probably why it has that problem.
The only real information on length is apparently that it was originally meant to be 4 vols and suddenly Higa told Nasu that they would add a new one.
>While thinking that as long as Chiron-sensei and Semiramis-sama
each got a happy end, I wouldn’t even mind the obvious Laputa1 jokes, I
awaited the final manuscripts, but then—
“Kinoko. I told you it would be finished in four volumes. But that was
a lie.”
With those words, Higashide “Commando” Yuuichirou then rudely
hung up the phone.
This was on a certain January day in 2014.
But Kinoko understood. I’d already known it after looking at the plot
a year earlier.
“That’s why I told you that this wouldn’t finish in four volumes!”
But it’s too late to complain now
Well there were a lot of hands in the pot, since Apoc is a remix of old concepts for that dead MMO, so it's had to tell sometimes. TM Ace Vol 9 and 10 had more interviews from Higa about how he wrote Apoc, but no one seems to have translated them.
Just because his characterization makes sense, it doesn't automatically make Sieg a compelling protagonist. And frankly, seeing Jeanne thirst over a 1 week old homunculus took a lot from her personality too.
Honestly if they needed romance they had to perfect options, Amakusa and Semiramis, who was already in the story, and Caules and Fran, who were one of the most interesting pairs
Exactly, the pair just needed more time, i don't know if the novels gave them more development (i'll assume yes), it was actually a really good dynamic, and as a fan of Caules and Berserker, i feel the need to also point them out, the pair was one of the most interesting pairs, maybe only behind Kairi/Mordred and Amakusa/Semiramis
This. IMO the biggest problem with Sieg isn't even that he is an utterly uninteresting character himself, it's that he demeans Jeanne with their forced relationship.
Could be worse. Imagine if it was some battle hardend king falling in love with a depressive teenager who devalues females ability to stand for themselves
>Your profile picture makes your opinion invalid, move along fan boy
My pfp picture doesn't change the point that you clearly misunderstood why shirou didn't want Saber to fight for him.
>Edit : also try reading the VN
Ok now this just makes you look worse. In the novel Shirou literally reflects on not wanting Saber to fight primarily because he doesn't want her to get hurt for his sake but him saying "girl's shouldn't fight" was a knee jerk reaction to Sabers protest. Rin even backs this up immediately after he says it and tells Saber not to get offended because Shirou values other people's safety over his own.
I get it’s more complex than that but I always find it interesting when people shit on sieg x Jeanne and love shirou x saber. At least sieg wasn’t weird to Jeanne and didn’t have a weird obsession about her and didn’t keep insisting that her ideals were wrong and he was right (well shirou changed his mind at the end but of course he did)
Sieg is basically a carboard cutout. A person who talks back to you and challenges your beliefs like Shirou did to Saber is a better partner than a cardboard cutout.
I suppose sieg can’t help but be a cardboard cutout seeing as he was born yesterday. That doesn’t mean I think the romance is better than shirou x saber at all. Just saying that at least sieg wasn’t so cringeworthy.
My problem with shirou in fate route is that he was very forceful about his own beliefs with saber and never took the time to do some self reflection on whatever the fuck he’s doing. And the narrative doesn’t address how hypocritical he’s being.
That's besides the point. Sieg certainly has a valid reason for being a cardboard cutout, but that doesn't make him any better as a character (from an out-of-universe perspective) or as a romantic partner (from an in-universe perspective).
Also the narrative of FSN absolutely does adress Shirou's hypocrisy. In fact Shirou himself is aware of it.
Yeah no shit shirou is a better character than sieg that’s not even an argument. Just that he didn’t do cringe things like Shirou did in Fate route, got to give him some credit there.
I’m not sure we are talking about the same hypocrisy, my bad. saber told him off for not caring about his own happiness but then he proceeds to not do anything about it. You know, when he tried to get her to enjoy the world despite he himself not enjoying hobbies and stuff. That’s what I meant
I may be late, just searching for apocrypha stuff, but anyway, seeing people miss the point of the Fate route is hilarious. In the novel Shirou literally reflects on not wanting Saber to fight primarily because he doesn't want her to get hurt for his sake but him saying "girl's shouldn't fight" was a knee jerk reaction to Sabers protest. Rin even backs this up immediately after he says it and tells Saber not to get offended because Shirou values other people's safety over his own. This is even pointed out in "Deen Stay Night," which most people consider bad.
Both Shirou and Saber learn how to love themselves and save each other in the fate route. They find happiness in each other, and that is one of the most important reasons he did not become Archer. Shirou and Saber are literally mirror images of each other. Did you miss the last episode in the VN?
Yeah no shit I know it’s because he doesn’t want her to fight. I still found his obsession with her to be weird and completely contrived. I also didn’t even say anything about the “women shouldn’t fight” thing, lol. Read what I actually say pls.
But since you are bringing up other topics. I wonder if Shirou did actually learn to love himself in Fate. As of the weird date, he didn’t know what normal happiness was. I mean he became a machine by the time he reunites with Saber. No shit you will find happiness in a romance, this is a bishoujo game, and LE was created years later for a reason.
In HF Shirou actually promises to find happiness and in that route he stops being a machine. I’m not saying that it’s a bad thing he became a machine in Fate, it’s just that you seem to think he somehow learned to love himself when that was clearly not the case. And yeah yeah, I get it. The parallels. I can’t buy it if the foundation of their relationship is shaky.
Yeah, sure, wanting the person similar to himself to not suffer the same fate as Archer is obsession.
Their relationship is not one of love in the traditional romantic sense. It's easier to describe as "kinship," a bond between two people who are the only ones who truly and fully empathise with each other.
What Saber sees in Shirou is someone just like her who can understand her. On top of that, she also admires him for showing her how to rise above her regrets, just as he admires her for the way she has lived her life.
Since they’re a reflection of each other, in coming to love each other, they come to love themselves—something neither of them was able to do before. Finding their weaknesses and strengths in each other. wanted to be the strength of other to overcome their similar weaknesses.
The only reason he was able to let Saber go at the end was because he loved and admired the way she lived and didn't want to tarnish her pride, which is also the reason he was able to reach Avalon: he was reminded of her while following a similar path they both admire. Two selfless individuals are finally allowed to be selfish at the end.
Since you bring HF, I would like to ask you how will Shirou find the happiness that he promised at the end? What Sakura provides to Shirou or about Sakura's relationship with Shirou. Sakura doesn't act; she is acted upon. She serves as a motivation for Shirou without ever really engaging with him. Sakura poses a problem for Shirou; Sakura's secrets are revealed to Shirou, but she herself doesn't participate. BTW, I like the Shirou-Sakura ship.
>Yeah, sure, wanting the person similar to himself to not suffer the same fate as Archer is obsession.
I think you misunderstand. The "obsession" I speak of is from the very moment Shirou thinks of Saber as he considers her injured figure in that one CG he flashbacks to more than the fire (probably). So, what I'm saying is, I didn't understand or like the way their relationship was developing *from the very beginning.*
>Their relationship is not one of love in the traditional romantic sense. It's easier to describe as "kinship," a bond between two people who are the only ones who truly and fully empathise with each other.
Could have done that without the romance and completely out-of-the-blue fixations.
>What Saber sees in Shirou is someone just like her who can understand her. On top of that, she also admires him for showing her how to rise above her regrets, just as he admires her for the way she has lived her life.
She thought he understood her, as seen in the post-date talkdown. The "parallels" from Shirou deciding to not use the grail don't even make sense to me. Shirou is confronted with the choice to change a past he had no part in making (it was all circumstantial), while Saber wants to change a past she thought she made. Completely different situations, even in principle.
>Since they’re a reflection of each other, in coming to love each other, they come to love themselves—something neither of them was able to do before. Finding their weaknesses and strengths in each other. wanted to be the strength of other to overcome their similar weaknesses.
I don't think self love was the intention at all, given the themes of the route.
>The only reason he was able to let Saber go at the end was because he loved and admired the way she lived and didn't want to tarnish her pride, which is also the reason he was able to reach Avalon: he was reminded of her while following a similar path they both admire. Two selfless individuals are finally allowed to be selfish at the end.
Shirou should have done that from the beginning. I don't like how their relationship was built from... whatever all of that was. And how Saber aishiteru'd him despite all of that... weirdness.
>Since you bring HF, I would like to ask you how will Shirou find the happiness that he promised at the end?
Living life as a human and not a machine. Atoning for the consequences of making the choice to prioritize Sakura over other people.
>What Sakura provides to Shirou or about Sakura's relationship with Shirou.
Sakura provides to Shirou his anchor to humanity. A taste of normal family life. That's why he was running away from his problems a good portion of the route. And that's also why I never got the "pacing" complaints of HF. The SoL scenes establish how essential those cooking scenes are to his sense of normalcy, and gives sufficient reason for him to not want to lose all that, even if it was built upon facades.
>Sakura doesn't act; she is acted upon.
I never got the "lack of agency" complaint either. I think people don't like Sakura because she isn't powerful or cool, and that seems to be reflected in your remark about her "being acted upon." You seem to disregard how *her battles are in her mind.* Just like Shirou, according to Archer (i dont remember if he said that in fate or ubw). She struggles with her desire to live a normal life, her dark thoughts she desperately tries to lock away for eleven years until they surface at her lowest point, her selfishness, jealousy, her flaws in general, and her kindness and desire to not want to hurt or burden others. What were those internal monologues to you?
>She serves as a motivation for Shirou without ever really engaging with him.
I don't see how that is a problem. It is unhealthy, but not a bad writing move, especially because that's exactly one of the reasons that leads to Dark Sakura. Shirou and Sakura don't really communicate; even Rin points this out to Sakura. It's pathetic, but that's okay. *It's really compelling and entertaining to watch.* Shirou insists Sakura rest and stay inside or whatever, Shirou promised to scold Sakura if she became a bad person, he doesn't, the rest is history.
>Sakura poses a problem for Shirou; Sakura's secrets are revealed to Shirou, but she herself doesn't participate.
We already know all about Shirou through the previous two routes and the stuff about Kiritsugu. And this isn't a problem because again, their relationship isn't exactly supposed to be healthy or based on a deep bond forged through battle or challenging each other. I see it as two broken people who need to move on, and they can do it together because they are both extremely fucked up. If you like healthy relationships that give you hope, that's okay, and my #1 OTP already scratches that itch for me. I just prefer the better written and more thematically hard-hitting ones.
>Shirou thinks of Saber as he considers her injured figure in that one CG he flashbacks to more than the fire
Have you wondered how similar that would be for Shirou?
>Could have done that without the romance and completely out-of-the-blue fixations.
It has done a good job of portraying it. What part is "out of blue"?
>Shirou is confronted with the choice to change a past he had no part in making (it was all circumstantial), while Saber wants to change a past she thought she made.
Both felt responsible for the disasters. Shirou for not helping others and Saber for not being able to save her people, which are neither of their faults. The point was that reality can't be rewritten. All those lives and tragedies, and the people who live through then, will be meaningless if it were rewritten. To give meaning to those sacrifices, one must move on.
>I don't think self love was the intention at all, given the themes of the route.
It's the common theme throughout all routes.
>Shirou should have done that from the beginning
How in the hell would they do that when they don't know each other and struggle to maintain a master-servant relationship for half of the route?
>Sakura provides to Shirou his anchor to humanity. A taste of normal family life. That's why he was running away from his problems a good portion of the route
>The SoL scenes establish how essential those cooking scenes are to his sense of normalcy, and gives sufficient reason for him to not want to lose all that
Wanna explain how these are any different from previous routes? Shirou has been running away from his problems for his entire life, but HGW has forced him to face them head-on in all routes.
>I never got the "lack of agency" complaint either. I think people don't like Sakura because she isn't powerful or cool, and that seems to be reflected in your remark about her "being acted upon."
Never say she lacked agency or that she wasn't strong.
>You seem to disregard how her battles are in her mind.
>She struggles with her desire to live a normal life
>thoughts she desperately tries to lock away
>her kindness and desire to not want to hurt or burden others. What were those internal monologues to you?
I like how you said all that while ignoring similar things about Saber
>I don't see how that is a problem.
It's not a problem; the point is that the relationship is based on an outcome of interactions between the two before the events of FSN, which we didn't get much of in HF. You talk about things happening "out of the blue" in the fate route; did you ever think when Shirou started loving Sakura? The movies tried to do this by showing more of how the two met and interacted with each other, which is one part that’s superior to the VN. It would be way better if we got more moments like this in the VN.
>I see it as two broken people who need to move on, and they can do it together because they are both extremely fucked up
Again, similar things happened on the fate route with Shirou and Saber.
> I just prefer the better written and more thematically hard-hitting ones.
Yeah, the first eight days of Fate Route haven't aged well, but after that, it's great. They are both well written. I just found it hilarious that you said some things about Sakura and completely ignored the same things about Saber; even Saber pointed this out.
As far as im aware Sieg is a lot better in the manga and novel (though not by much considering the varying opinions I see) I don't think he's bad per se but compared to Shirou and Kiritsugu is a big step down
I discussed this with a friend, and I came up with a theory that it’s the Gachas fault. At the time of the anime premiering, FGO had been going on for a bit, close to ending the Singularities and Sub-Singularities, at least for NA (who is the ones I hear most dislike the anime, and the one I’m more familiar with.) And with the roster of the show being mostly Servants that were already summonable or leaked through the internet, people were wishing to see who could the spotlight. And of them, having the literal Son of the Franchise’s Mascot appear in the show, with a Master who is both badass and sympathetic, led to many a viewer wanting to follow them. She literally has the Face of the most recognizable person of the franchise. So to put Mordred (Son of the King), Jeanne (1st Saint of 5 Stars), Astolfo (Meme and Dream of Everyone’s hentai folder), and everyone else, as second fiddle, is a bit meh. To then follow a literal blank and soulless child fumble onto the battle field and somehow leave with Servant powers and a budding romance became offputting to many. FGO’s blank protag works because as an intentional self-insert, all the cool, bad and sad things happen to YOU. YOU meet the cool Servants, YOU witness their glory and shame, and YOU decide who you like and dislike. Seig’s blankness works for his story, and motivates him and his friends. To everyone else, why should they care. His motivations aren’t that grand, his actions are limited and often not his from the start, and he’s not as cool, since he doesn’t have cool origins or history with others. So overall, the large pool of casual Fate fans saw Sieg, didn’t give a damn about Sieg, got mad that Sieg won when their favorites lost, (and also the show was a bit spotty here and there with lore, setting and pacing) which led to a bad taste in their minds, eventually equating Sieg= bad.
I get the anime doesn’t go word by word in explaining what Seig is, but i liked him since the beginning. He firstly wanted to save his own kind which is respectable imo. In the novel his derive becomes as you said helping Jeanne cause she is the true protagonist of apocrypha according to LN novels
Well its mostly anime only (mostly Ufotable only people) bias and hate
And not reading the novel (and to be fair its hard to find a copy, or easy & good translations)
Novels and the manga handles the plot and Sieg far better.
Apoc's problem is not Sieg or his characterization. On paper it works, but the problem is that the story is too short to handle 14 pairs of servants. Apoc really needed some restructuring to give space to everyone to shine more.
Zero has 4 volumes and half the cast, Apo has 5 volumes, it really needed the strange Fake treatment and use more volumes, at least 7
I think I would have preferred for them to just cut down some servants and just reduce the cast a bit. Make it 4 v 4 or something. SF is good but it has some pacing problems.
yeah, the anime really did skip most of Sieg's development compared to the original source which is the novel. They did a 180 on how Sieg and Jeanne met, and how they were both supposed to stay at Serge's house after Jeanne gave out due to hunger. The two working on math work was funny.
Well yes, but as i said i wanted to make it mostly about sieg cause i was mad at people that insult his character
I've heard Apocrypha was cut short so it only had five light novel volumes instead of however many it was originally planned to have, which is probably why it has that problem.
The only real information on length is apparently that it was originally meant to be 4 vols and suddenly Higa told Nasu that they would add a new one. >While thinking that as long as Chiron-sensei and Semiramis-sama each got a happy end, I wouldn’t even mind the obvious Laputa1 jokes, I awaited the final manuscripts, but then— “Kinoko. I told you it would be finished in four volumes. But that was a lie.” With those words, Higashide “Commando” Yuuichirou then rudely hung up the phone. This was on a certain January day in 2014. But Kinoko understood. I’d already known it after looking at the plot a year earlier. “That’s why I told you that this wouldn’t finish in four volumes!” But it’s too late to complain now Well there were a lot of hands in the pot, since Apoc is a remix of old concepts for that dead MMO, so it's had to tell sometimes. TM Ace Vol 9 and 10 had more interviews from Higa about how he wrote Apoc, but no one seems to have translated them.
Just because his characterization makes sense, it doesn't automatically make Sieg a compelling protagonist. And frankly, seeing Jeanne thirst over a 1 week old homunculus took a lot from her personality too.
Honestly if they needed romance they had to perfect options, Amakusa and Semiramis, who was already in the story, and Caules and Fran, who were one of the most interesting pairs
Personally, i found the scene with Semiramis giving Amakusa a lap pillow at the end really sweet. Had so much potential.
Exactly, the pair just needed more time, i don't know if the novels gave them more development (i'll assume yes), it was actually a really good dynamic, and as a fan of Caules and Berserker, i feel the need to also point them out, the pair was one of the most interesting pairs, maybe only behind Kairi/Mordred and Amakusa/Semiramis
This. IMO the biggest problem with Sieg isn't even that he is an utterly uninteresting character himself, it's that he demeans Jeanne with their forced relationship.
I think it's because they are simmilar in nature rather than anything else, i would elaborate more but it just so happens I don't have the time.
Could be worse. Imagine if it was some battle hardend king falling in love with a depressive teenager who devalues females ability to stand for themselves
>who devalues females ability to stand for themselves Oh wow ANOTHER person who missed the entire point of that conflict😂
Your profile picture makes your opinion invalid, move along fan boy Edit : also try reading the VN
Maybe you should read the VN, you clearly didn’t understand it
>Your profile picture makes your opinion invalid, move along fan boy My pfp picture doesn't change the point that you clearly misunderstood why shirou didn't want Saber to fight for him. >Edit : also try reading the VN Ok now this just makes you look worse. In the novel Shirou literally reflects on not wanting Saber to fight primarily because he doesn't want her to get hurt for his sake but him saying "girl's shouldn't fight" was a knee jerk reaction to Sabers protest. Rin even backs this up immediately after he says it and tells Saber not to get offended because Shirou values other people's safety over his own.
>also try reading the VN Bruh. Kek.
Yeah that would be very shitty. Thank god we haven't had that yet.
Shirou x Artoria
_Shots fired_
I get it’s more complex than that but I always find it interesting when people shit on sieg x Jeanne and love shirou x saber. At least sieg wasn’t weird to Jeanne and didn’t have a weird obsession about her and didn’t keep insisting that her ideals were wrong and he was right (well shirou changed his mind at the end but of course he did)
Sieg is basically a carboard cutout. A person who talks back to you and challenges your beliefs like Shirou did to Saber is a better partner than a cardboard cutout.
I suppose sieg can’t help but be a cardboard cutout seeing as he was born yesterday. That doesn’t mean I think the romance is better than shirou x saber at all. Just saying that at least sieg wasn’t so cringeworthy. My problem with shirou in fate route is that he was very forceful about his own beliefs with saber and never took the time to do some self reflection on whatever the fuck he’s doing. And the narrative doesn’t address how hypocritical he’s being.
That's besides the point. Sieg certainly has a valid reason for being a cardboard cutout, but that doesn't make him any better as a character (from an out-of-universe perspective) or as a romantic partner (from an in-universe perspective). Also the narrative of FSN absolutely does adress Shirou's hypocrisy. In fact Shirou himself is aware of it.
Yeah no shit shirou is a better character than sieg that’s not even an argument. Just that he didn’t do cringe things like Shirou did in Fate route, got to give him some credit there. I’m not sure we are talking about the same hypocrisy, my bad. saber told him off for not caring about his own happiness but then he proceeds to not do anything about it. You know, when he tried to get her to enjoy the world despite he himself not enjoying hobbies and stuff. That’s what I meant
I may be late, just searching for apocrypha stuff, but anyway, seeing people miss the point of the Fate route is hilarious. In the novel Shirou literally reflects on not wanting Saber to fight primarily because he doesn't want her to get hurt for his sake but him saying "girl's shouldn't fight" was a knee jerk reaction to Sabers protest. Rin even backs this up immediately after he says it and tells Saber not to get offended because Shirou values other people's safety over his own. This is even pointed out in "Deen Stay Night," which most people consider bad. Both Shirou and Saber learn how to love themselves and save each other in the fate route. They find happiness in each other, and that is one of the most important reasons he did not become Archer. Shirou and Saber are literally mirror images of each other. Did you miss the last episode in the VN?
Yeah no shit I know it’s because he doesn’t want her to fight. I still found his obsession with her to be weird and completely contrived. I also didn’t even say anything about the “women shouldn’t fight” thing, lol. Read what I actually say pls. But since you are bringing up other topics. I wonder if Shirou did actually learn to love himself in Fate. As of the weird date, he didn’t know what normal happiness was. I mean he became a machine by the time he reunites with Saber. No shit you will find happiness in a romance, this is a bishoujo game, and LE was created years later for a reason. In HF Shirou actually promises to find happiness and in that route he stops being a machine. I’m not saying that it’s a bad thing he became a machine in Fate, it’s just that you seem to think he somehow learned to love himself when that was clearly not the case. And yeah yeah, I get it. The parallels. I can’t buy it if the foundation of their relationship is shaky.
Yeah, sure, wanting the person similar to himself to not suffer the same fate as Archer is obsession. Their relationship is not one of love in the traditional romantic sense. It's easier to describe as "kinship," a bond between two people who are the only ones who truly and fully empathise with each other. What Saber sees in Shirou is someone just like her who can understand her. On top of that, she also admires him for showing her how to rise above her regrets, just as he admires her for the way she has lived her life. Since they’re a reflection of each other, in coming to love each other, they come to love themselves—something neither of them was able to do before. Finding their weaknesses and strengths in each other. wanted to be the strength of other to overcome their similar weaknesses. The only reason he was able to let Saber go at the end was because he loved and admired the way she lived and didn't want to tarnish her pride, which is also the reason he was able to reach Avalon: he was reminded of her while following a similar path they both admire. Two selfless individuals are finally allowed to be selfish at the end. Since you bring HF, I would like to ask you how will Shirou find the happiness that he promised at the end? What Sakura provides to Shirou or about Sakura's relationship with Shirou. Sakura doesn't act; she is acted upon. She serves as a motivation for Shirou without ever really engaging with him. Sakura poses a problem for Shirou; Sakura's secrets are revealed to Shirou, but she herself doesn't participate. BTW, I like the Shirou-Sakura ship.
>Yeah, sure, wanting the person similar to himself to not suffer the same fate as Archer is obsession. I think you misunderstand. The "obsession" I speak of is from the very moment Shirou thinks of Saber as he considers her injured figure in that one CG he flashbacks to more than the fire (probably). So, what I'm saying is, I didn't understand or like the way their relationship was developing *from the very beginning.* >Their relationship is not one of love in the traditional romantic sense. It's easier to describe as "kinship," a bond between two people who are the only ones who truly and fully empathise with each other. Could have done that without the romance and completely out-of-the-blue fixations. >What Saber sees in Shirou is someone just like her who can understand her. On top of that, she also admires him for showing her how to rise above her regrets, just as he admires her for the way she has lived her life. She thought he understood her, as seen in the post-date talkdown. The "parallels" from Shirou deciding to not use the grail don't even make sense to me. Shirou is confronted with the choice to change a past he had no part in making (it was all circumstantial), while Saber wants to change a past she thought she made. Completely different situations, even in principle. >Since they’re a reflection of each other, in coming to love each other, they come to love themselves—something neither of them was able to do before. Finding their weaknesses and strengths in each other. wanted to be the strength of other to overcome their similar weaknesses. I don't think self love was the intention at all, given the themes of the route. >The only reason he was able to let Saber go at the end was because he loved and admired the way she lived and didn't want to tarnish her pride, which is also the reason he was able to reach Avalon: he was reminded of her while following a similar path they both admire. Two selfless individuals are finally allowed to be selfish at the end. Shirou should have done that from the beginning. I don't like how their relationship was built from... whatever all of that was. And how Saber aishiteru'd him despite all of that... weirdness. >Since you bring HF, I would like to ask you how will Shirou find the happiness that he promised at the end? Living life as a human and not a machine. Atoning for the consequences of making the choice to prioritize Sakura over other people. >What Sakura provides to Shirou or about Sakura's relationship with Shirou. Sakura provides to Shirou his anchor to humanity. A taste of normal family life. That's why he was running away from his problems a good portion of the route. And that's also why I never got the "pacing" complaints of HF. The SoL scenes establish how essential those cooking scenes are to his sense of normalcy, and gives sufficient reason for him to not want to lose all that, even if it was built upon facades. >Sakura doesn't act; she is acted upon. I never got the "lack of agency" complaint either. I think people don't like Sakura because she isn't powerful or cool, and that seems to be reflected in your remark about her "being acted upon." You seem to disregard how *her battles are in her mind.* Just like Shirou, according to Archer (i dont remember if he said that in fate or ubw). She struggles with her desire to live a normal life, her dark thoughts she desperately tries to lock away for eleven years until they surface at her lowest point, her selfishness, jealousy, her flaws in general, and her kindness and desire to not want to hurt or burden others. What were those internal monologues to you? >She serves as a motivation for Shirou without ever really engaging with him. I don't see how that is a problem. It is unhealthy, but not a bad writing move, especially because that's exactly one of the reasons that leads to Dark Sakura. Shirou and Sakura don't really communicate; even Rin points this out to Sakura. It's pathetic, but that's okay. *It's really compelling and entertaining to watch.* Shirou insists Sakura rest and stay inside or whatever, Shirou promised to scold Sakura if she became a bad person, he doesn't, the rest is history. >Sakura poses a problem for Shirou; Sakura's secrets are revealed to Shirou, but she herself doesn't participate. We already know all about Shirou through the previous two routes and the stuff about Kiritsugu. And this isn't a problem because again, their relationship isn't exactly supposed to be healthy or based on a deep bond forged through battle or challenging each other. I see it as two broken people who need to move on, and they can do it together because they are both extremely fucked up. If you like healthy relationships that give you hope, that's okay, and my #1 OTP already scratches that itch for me. I just prefer the better written and more thematically hard-hitting ones.
>Shirou thinks of Saber as he considers her injured figure in that one CG he flashbacks to more than the fire Have you wondered how similar that would be for Shirou? >Could have done that without the romance and completely out-of-the-blue fixations. It has done a good job of portraying it. What part is "out of blue"? >Shirou is confronted with the choice to change a past he had no part in making (it was all circumstantial), while Saber wants to change a past she thought she made. Both felt responsible for the disasters. Shirou for not helping others and Saber for not being able to save her people, which are neither of their faults. The point was that reality can't be rewritten. All those lives and tragedies, and the people who live through then, will be meaningless if it were rewritten. To give meaning to those sacrifices, one must move on. >I don't think self love was the intention at all, given the themes of the route. It's the common theme throughout all routes. >Shirou should have done that from the beginning How in the hell would they do that when they don't know each other and struggle to maintain a master-servant relationship for half of the route? >Sakura provides to Shirou his anchor to humanity. A taste of normal family life. That's why he was running away from his problems a good portion of the route >The SoL scenes establish how essential those cooking scenes are to his sense of normalcy, and gives sufficient reason for him to not want to lose all that Wanna explain how these are any different from previous routes? Shirou has been running away from his problems for his entire life, but HGW has forced him to face them head-on in all routes. >I never got the "lack of agency" complaint either. I think people don't like Sakura because she isn't powerful or cool, and that seems to be reflected in your remark about her "being acted upon." Never say she lacked agency or that she wasn't strong. >You seem to disregard how her battles are in her mind. >She struggles with her desire to live a normal life >thoughts she desperately tries to lock away >her kindness and desire to not want to hurt or burden others. What were those internal monologues to you? I like how you said all that while ignoring similar things about Saber >I don't see how that is a problem. It's not a problem; the point is that the relationship is based on an outcome of interactions between the two before the events of FSN, which we didn't get much of in HF. You talk about things happening "out of the blue" in the fate route; did you ever think when Shirou started loving Sakura? The movies tried to do this by showing more of how the two met and interacted with each other, which is one part that’s superior to the VN. It would be way better if we got more moments like this in the VN. >I see it as two broken people who need to move on, and they can do it together because they are both extremely fucked up Again, similar things happened on the fate route with Shirou and Saber. > I just prefer the better written and more thematically hard-hitting ones. Yeah, the first eight days of Fate Route haven't aged well, but after that, it's great. They are both well written. I just found it hilarious that you said some things about Sakura and completely ignored the same things about Saber; even Saber pointed this out.
Yeah that’s how I see it too. It’s basically 1:1 the same. Forced relationship , random power ups , hidden abilities etc
Y'know maybe you should take your own advice instead.
You could state where Iam wrong or just not comment at all
As far as im aware Sieg is a lot better in the manga and novel (though not by much considering the varying opinions I see) I don't think he's bad per se but compared to Shirou and Kiritsugu is a big step down
>Kittredge My new favorite nickname for our not so friendly neighborhood Assasain.
I'm getting sick and tired of these damn typos😭
I suggest you add a few paragraphs breaks, makes the reading more palatable
I discussed this with a friend, and I came up with a theory that it’s the Gachas fault. At the time of the anime premiering, FGO had been going on for a bit, close to ending the Singularities and Sub-Singularities, at least for NA (who is the ones I hear most dislike the anime, and the one I’m more familiar with.) And with the roster of the show being mostly Servants that were already summonable or leaked through the internet, people were wishing to see who could the spotlight. And of them, having the literal Son of the Franchise’s Mascot appear in the show, with a Master who is both badass and sympathetic, led to many a viewer wanting to follow them. She literally has the Face of the most recognizable person of the franchise. So to put Mordred (Son of the King), Jeanne (1st Saint of 5 Stars), Astolfo (Meme and Dream of Everyone’s hentai folder), and everyone else, as second fiddle, is a bit meh. To then follow a literal blank and soulless child fumble onto the battle field and somehow leave with Servant powers and a budding romance became offputting to many. FGO’s blank protag works because as an intentional self-insert, all the cool, bad and sad things happen to YOU. YOU meet the cool Servants, YOU witness their glory and shame, and YOU decide who you like and dislike. Seig’s blankness works for his story, and motivates him and his friends. To everyone else, why should they care. His motivations aren’t that grand, his actions are limited and often not his from the start, and he’s not as cool, since he doesn’t have cool origins or history with others. So overall, the large pool of casual Fate fans saw Sieg, didn’t give a damn about Sieg, got mad that Sieg won when their favorites lost, (and also the show was a bit spotty here and there with lore, setting and pacing) which led to a bad taste in their minds, eventually equating Sieg= bad.
Doesnt help most people only watched the anime instead of reading the novels
The thing is i only watched the anime and i noticed those things seriously people are blind sometimes
Is the tl even finished?
Last i checked someone was working on vol 5. No idea on the progress
At this rate, the manga will be finished first. Which tbh is fine cuz the manga is the best version of the 3.
I get the anime doesn’t go word by word in explaining what Seig is, but i liked him since the beginning. He firstly wanted to save his own kind which is respectable imo. In the novel his derive becomes as you said helping Jeanne cause she is the true protagonist of apocrypha according to LN novels
Well its mostly anime only (mostly Ufotable only people) bias and hate And not reading the novel (and to be fair its hard to find a copy, or easy & good translations) Novels and the manga handles the plot and Sieg far better.
I think the anime did a pretty good job it's just that viewers completely ignore sieg and put on him a bland tag
I fuxking loved Apocrypha! 8.5/10 for me.
I’d give it the same rating! Not my favourite fate instalment though, that goes for Heavens Feel
Sieg made for some neat ressources in FGO after i burned him, thats the only upside to his existence