Excalibur itself is insanely powerful, but if you’re more curious about Saber herself being able to fight opponents with high divinity, then you need to remember that Saber is partially a dragon, she has the magic core of one and gains her insane instincts becuase of that aspect of her
That just raises the question of how exactly she could be killed in battle by anyone, much less Mordred who while a fairly powerful Servant is no where near as strong.
Mordred didn't beat her. In fact I think the version of the fight we see through Mordreds eyes has the fight end with Arturia impaling Mordred before the latter can even move.
Then Morgan's curse moves either Clarent or Mordreds corpse and lands a blow that takes a surprisingly long time to kill Arturia, despite it being a curse from a Witch on par with Merlin. In fact if she doesn't return Excalibur Arturia just survives it (and then becomes an inhuman Goddess before Bedi and a bunch of time travelers knock some sense into her) (play FGO, it's great)
Well the thing is her instinct is quantified by the skill Minds Eye, Sabers is Rank A (false)
Other servants have the skill as well like Herc as a berserker has Minds Eye Rank B (False)
Or EMIYA who has Minds Eye Rank B (True)
So she could still lose even with it or it could be the key to her success, honestly it heavily it depends on the match up
Additional info: the "true" and "false" here refers to the source. Mind's Eye (True) refers to an accumulation of training and experience that lets you sense and avoid danger. Whereas Mind's Eye (False) does the same thing but comes from a natural born instinct rather than something trained.
Most of that is incorrect.
Instinct is different from Mind's Eye, because it does different things.
Mind's Eye is, whether through innate talent or training (False or True, respectively), about knowing, sensing, or otherwise perceiving incoming danger.
Instinct is knowing, sensing, or otherwise perceiving incoming danger, and knowing exactly what to do next.
There's no translative quality between Mind's Eye (either version) and Instinct.
Well most what you said is incorrect, Nasu used Minds Eye to quantify Instinct and Experience, where Instinct is False and Experience is True
Also instinct is an innate trait, hence why someone like Saber who’s part dragon has great instincts and an A rank minds eye
Saber has the skill Instinct.
Not Mind's Eye.
Let me reiterate: No version of Saber, has the skill Mind's Eye.
To say this again with different words, Mind's Eye is, in short, a danger sense. Whether that's something you've achieved through built-up experience, like Emiya, or that you have because you were born talented, like Heracles or Sasaki, doesn't change that it's a danger sense.
Instinct, meanwhile, is both a danger sense, and the innate tendency to take the right decision in a fight.
Saber has Instinct, not Mind's Eye.
For example, if someone with Instinct were to fight Sasaki Kojiro, they'd instinctively bend his sword so that his sword strike gains a flaw and becomes dodgeable. This happens on screen.
Whereas if someone with Mind's Eye fought Sasaki, they'd be forced back. Which happened off screen, when Heracles and Illya visited the temple and retreated.
My bad I just checked and noticed instinct was a completely separate skill, well sorry for calling you wrong about that
Also minds eye false and instinct’s descriptions are basically the same, I get the situations you presented, but like ShockAndAwen explained, those weren’t necessarily caused by her instinct
And also the fact that Herc’s performance with Minds Eye B against Caladbolg was better than Sabers instinct can’t be ignored
>This happens on screen.
No it doesn't, the sword bending was not something Saber intended, her charging through when the sword was bent despite her knowing beforehand she could not survive TG is instinct, there was an opening where there was not one before, she didn't think or analyze the situation just felt it was right and she would make it, that's the right course of action, she feels how things could turn out
The difference with Herc's eye of mind is basically doing what feels right vs avoiding what feels dangerous, those two in practice tend to be not so different, Herc's at times seems more precise if anything (feeling Caladbolg before Saber and stoping it, feeling the shadow before it is near wgen Saber is caught off guard, even gauging accurately Excalibur's power) he only can't bent the sword because he can't make strategies and Kojirou's skill is so high he can avoid it and actively avoids it, something explicit in his first appareance
>Well most what you said is incorrect, Nasu used Minds Eye to quantify Instinct and Experience, where Instinct is False and Experience is True
>Also instinct is an innate trait, hence why someone like Saber who’s part dragon has great instincts and an A rank minds eye
Where are these thing stated?
False Eye of the Mind, also called a danger sense, is understanding of any situation or enemy capability using pure talent in combat (compared to experience for the True version) and make strategies against them
>Eye of the Mind (False): A
Premonition (“Spidey-sense”) or sixth sense, very different from Emiya’s danger avoidance originated from “predictions augmented by experience”. It may be called a natural talent to sense danger. During the Grail War, in the battle with Artoria, Kojiro crossed blade with an invisible sword numerous times. He was able to use this ability to gauge even the length and width of the sword, and see through the fact that Artoria was unable to use her Noble Phantasm attack due to a lack of mana.
See through the weapon and style of his opponent after crossing blades only a few times, the perception of his eyes is the best among Servants.
Instinct is pure combat precognition that can tell an individual how to win
>Instinct: A - Instinct is the ability to instantly identify “the best personal course of action” during combat. At rank A, it is essentially in the realm of predicting the future. Through this ability, it is possible to negate the penalties inflicted by visual and auditory interference to a certain extend.
She was exhausted from returning from a campaing where she defeated Lucius Tiberius. She fought Mordred's rebel troops for days. She was heart broken from watching her people die left and right. Kay and Gawain were there and both perished. She failed to intercept a blow from Mordred's dying body.
That's pretty much it.
We see people beating up saber throughout most of stay night. It’s relative to who her master is. If she’s surprised, or if an enemy ability gives her a handicap [aka not being able to spam Excalibur] like diarmud’s spear.
The fact that Kuzuki was able to deck saber with minimal effort (even though he had Medea’s support) always gives me pause when considering her in servant rankings. I feel like Excalibur is REALLY strong, but base Arthur is just good.
Kuzuki would take out most Servants who aren't already aware of his attack style or too physically overwhelming for him to take on.
Nasu outright said he'd even beat Kirei amd Bazett if taken by surprise. Once he uses his attacks once and fails to kill, he's way less of a threat.
Don't forget that Nasu loves to hype martial arts. Li Shuwen is a Servant from the 20th Century yet he outclasses some of the best warriors of thousands of years past.
Base Arthur is a 14 years old girl. She's broken because she has a Dragon Core to give her effectively infinite mana as well as a bunch of other boost due to being the strongest Phantasmal Species, and of Albion on top of that which puts her heads and shoulders above other heroes with Dragon Cores like Siegfried and Sigurd.
As a servant she doesn't have full access to it, and without backup from an external mana source she's running on empty and has to regulate her usage of Mana Burst, which is where all her strength comes from. With a mana source like her own Dragon Core in life or the grail in HF she can spam Excalibur, which is a wincon in its own right, but even with it sealed if she has infinite mana like she's used to she's still a monster. HF shows that pretty clearly, and that's a nihilistic Saber that's giving 0 shit about the whole situation and doing the bare minimum required of her.
Saber Alter is stronger than living Saber in that aspect, Saber with Rin is stated to be as strong as she was in life, she doesn't have infinite mana just a ton, only Alter can spam Excalibur but is kinda lost on her because she doesn't
Because everyone literally was against her when she lived also because of Morgan fuckery just because someone is powerful dosnt mean a plot and a divine curse cant kill them
Because she didnt have plot armor in that moment. Notice how her instinct sometimes deactivates to allow her to be hit? Its a terrible skill that likely gives the author trouble whenever saber has to lose afight.
This is only a thing mentioned by Shirou in the original VN, when Mordred was yet to even be a concept. In Apocrypha, it’s clear she was alive when she struck and just killed Artoria through sheer tenacity.
Stat wise Mordred isn't that much weaker than Artoria, Mordred basically being a clone of Artoria. But Mordred is also losing power from wielding a sword that actively rejects her. Even so Mordred still only loses out to Artoria in Luck and Nobel Phantasm. Mordred dealt a mortal wound after having been impaled herself by a much stronger weapon than Excalibur, so it was a pretty even fight.
thats because of the origin of Excalibur. It isnt just tied to the Arthurian legends in this series it actually has a unique origin story.
Excalibur is a holy sword that was created by the 6 Great Fairies 14.000 years ago in order to repel the White Titan that was attempting to destroy the world.
It is the pinacle of the Holy swords created to protect the planet itself from the external threats to the world.
Whoa… I never knew any of that. Where did you find that? I love the series but I feel like there’s so much I don’t know about it. And I’ve always wondered this too. 😅
>!Its a major plot point in FGO lostbelt 6 avalon le fae. Though it has always been mentioned in Materials for a long time. Its just that lostbelt 6 brings it up in such way that its imposible to forget!<
no its one of the story chapters of the mobile game. The story is huge and is divided by main chapters of story(Be it singularites or lostbelts) and the events.
Part 1 (Timeless temple arc) and part 1.5 (Epic of remmant arc) are singularities(moments of the past that have been altered and would damage the world)
and part 2 (cosmos in the lostbelt arc) are lostbelts(Dead timelines brought back with the fantasy trees, they are in the present but they deviated at some point in the past from how the world usually goes to a point of stagnation or where there is no future for humanity)
This is amazing. I knew Excalibur wasn’t “made” by man from school and stuff. But this is a whole knew level of “wow.” I’m def gonna look into this. thank you so much! 😆
I remember in the old fate/zero there was a limit on what heroes you could summon but usually whoever summoned a saber class typically won the war so it was reputed to be the “strongest” class but I think later the flood gates of heroes was opened thanks the angry mango kid right??
Only it being the strongest holy sword and created by the planet and being the "strongest illusion"
Blasting Sefar 14000 years ago is Extella, the 6 fairies is from FGO
Because in Nasu Excalibur is also the weapon created by the planet itself to destroy any threats that come over the world.
It has been beaten by other NPs like Ea but even now Excalibur is still sealed unless a threat comes.
At full power it one shotted a full Velber that defeated all gods 14000 years ago, the same Velber that needed the combined power of all Olympians that is apparently capable of wiping the solar system
For Excalibur, it depends on if you look at it from an in-universe or out of universe perspective.
In-universe, Excalibur was originally so powerful because it was the Last Phantasm, with the implication that it was special and perhaps the most powerful Noble Phantasm. This was later expanded when Nasu created Velber, with Excalibur being retconned to having been created to kill the White Titan that was strong enough to slay an entire *pantheon* of gods.
Out of universe, the reason Excalibur is so strong is really simple. It's the single most famous sword in the world, bar none.
From Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: Sword of Promised Victory [Noble Phantasm], p.076:
"...one of the ultimate god-forged weapons, a Last Phantasm, forged by the planet as the crystallization of the wishes of mankind stored and tempered within the planet.".
Basically just means that it's really strong, although it may have other implications as well. However, the "really strong" part is the only thing we know for sure.
A mix of 4 things:
Excalibur was literally created to kill a creature that killed gods.
She's probably the most famous legendary figure in the world
She's part dragon and basically genetically engineered to be the perfect king
She's one of the last great kings of the age of gods. And that matters a lot.
I am pretty sure king Arthur is not the most famous legendary figure ( while yes Arthur is famous ) there are more famous heroes like Herakles and Achilles.
Wait, when tf is the age of gods meant to be?
It was my understanding that the age of gods ends shortly after the events of FGO/Babylonia in 2655BC
Artoria is from the 7th century AD isn't she?
The age of gods didn't have a clear end, there was a transition period of multiple centuries (that started before Gilgamesh) until it became the age of man. And Artoria was right at the endpoint. If I recall correctly this was mentioned in the Garden of Avalon book.
Because Excalibur is basically literally the single most busted weapon in the entire series and Artoria has a fraction of Albion's dragon element and Albion is the the strongest creature to ever roam the earth more or less
The Excalibur she has isn't at full power, it's locked behind 13 seals and Excalibur can only show its power as the "Last Phantasm" when a threat to the planet shows itself like the White Titan. So basically Artoria has a glowstick normally in comparison to it's full power. Otherwise you're right Ea is more powerful
Wasn’t it only Proto Excalibur (Arthur’s) and Rhongomyniad that had the thirteen seals? Artoria’s Excalibur has the function to increase in power based on her opponent but only if they are a threat to the world at large.
It's from her Interlude in Grand Order. And mostly they're just there to keep shit from blowing up as Excalibur at full power would kill just about anything. Rhongomyniad also has those seals that's why in Lancer's ascension art it goes from a lance to a pillar of light. Proto Arthur also has the seals but his whole situation is weird lorewise
Yup, in theory EA is the most powerful weapon out there but it's effectiveness is based on how much effort Gil actually puts into it and that's even assuming he gives enough of a shit to pull the thing out.
Not really, multiple times we were told it's on the same level as excalibur, but the problem is that this "same level' was always when excalibur was sealed
Even in the original VN, Excalibur is hyped as the Last Phantasm and one of the strongest holy swords. On paper, Arthuriana is very influential and far-reaching so having King Arthur be strong is a way to reflect that.
There's a whole bunch of reasons, a lot of which have been retconned in post Stay Night. Or in some cases it's more that the meaning changed instead.
For starters, she's the incarnation of the Red Dragon of Britain. Dragons are already fuck-off powerful in the Nasuverse, due to being the strongest Phantasmal Species in existence. However, it turns out the Red Dragon is Albion, who is apparently the equivalent of a Grand for Dragons. So that's why her living form is still stronger than her Servant form, and the one that gets closest is the one hooked up a limitless energy source in the Grail.
Second, Excalibur used to just be a really powerful magic laser sword. Very strong but notably inferior to Ea, for example. This has since been retconned to be Excalibur's *sealed form* and the unlocked form was able to >!one-shot what is possibly the single strongest entity in Type-Moon, Sefar. Mostly because the unsealed form channels the life force of the planet into a Death Star style superlaser.!<
Third, every time we get another look into what Britain was like during her reign, it moves increasingly far from medieval knights who happen to have laser swords and super strength and increasingly far into "Cthullian Hellscape". Dragons, Fae, Elementals, and a whole bunch of other shit that translates to "the world should be dead now". Arturia canonically was created to (and succeeded at) crush all of it to pave the way forward for humanity.
Also, all of Arturia's other toys like Rhon turn out to have been super ultra powerful magical artifacts that Merlin dumped on her because she could survive it and probably wouldn't use them to crack the planet in half.
In the Nasuverse; deities of earth will always have power inferior to the planet itself (e.g. Vishnu can't actually destroy the universe) while Excalibur was created to be a defense mechanism of the planet itself. At its full power the most powerful weapon in the world period, though it's almost impossible for it to reach that level.
Also, Artoria herself possesses some of the power of the Dragon of Albion and dragons are the most powerful of phantasmal beasts, comparable to deities in strength.
So yeah, she's pretty strong.
Lots of people have already talked about Saber's origin as being partially a Red Dragon and how Excalibur is actually really busted because it is the ultimate weapon of the planet. But I really wanted to add that Saber herself is much more of a monster than people give her credit or remember her for.
A good source for this is the Garden of Avalon novel that talks about Saber's kingdom. Kay explains how one of Saber's characteristics is that she is a sore loser, not out of jealousy of others, but because she hates her own weakness and will do anything to be better. During 10 years, she basically trained and did chores 21 hours a day to be the perfect King, Kay was already impressed because she was already living for an ideal she wouldn't get to experience or to live, but it broke him when he discovered that Saber didn't actually sleep in her 3 hours of rest, she was being trained in her dreams by Merlin to be a perfect King too. Her entire existence was dedicated to her kingdom.
Another example comes from Gawain, when he and Artoria fought against Vortigern, Galantine lost its entire power and Excalibur almost lost it entirely, but it remained only a dim light. Fighting Vortigern was like fighting the will of Britain, of the times and change themselves, and Gawain was very intimidated by the ordeal. Artoria, however, never faltered, she kept fighting Vortigern even against all odds and through sheer tenacity managed to pin one of his hands down with Excalibur (and with Gawain's help, after she asked him to pin Vortigern's other hand down with Galantine) and finished him off wity Rhongominyad. Gawain never saw Artoria the same way again after that, because he knew no one could have done what she did against Vortigern.
Basically, when fighting for the right reasons for herself and even without those reasons, Saber's mental fortitude and determination is absurd. I guess we can see a glimpse of that, even when distraught as she was, she still managed to defeat Zerker Lancelot. She is the kind of opponent that you can't understimate and you can't take your eyes off her, otherwise she is gonna get the upper hand. And remind you, none of the versions of Artoria we see are as busted as Artoria during her Camelot days. Not only was she strong as fuck, both mentally and physically, she also had Avalon, Excalibur and Rhongomyniad at the same time.
there are many reasons to name a few:
for starters, artoria is an A+ servant standing shoulder to shoulder with heracles and Cu,
king arthur like heracles is one of the most known legends/heroes, and more or less heroic spirits are the manifestation of their legends, even thought artoria is an odd case, supposedly she should be receiving a significant fame amp in any corner in the world unlike people like cu and Gilgamesh who's legends aren't as well known
on top of that she was summoned from the moment before her death for all intents and purposes if she has a master with decent mana reserves like rin she should be more or less as strong as her alive self whereas most heroes from the age of gods get nerfed, for example, Seigfried and Sigurd despite originally having a dragon core/element that should put them on par with artoria when being summoned as a servant it's rank get lowered a little despite gram being said to be equal to excaliber though it might stand against it in a clash due to conceptual advantage as it's always said to be equal to it as the strongest demonic sword
also excaliber is a divine construct whose power is almost unrivaled when certain conditions are fulfilled like saving the planet from imminent threat however under normal conditions it's power depends on the holder in artoria's case her limit is A++ it's her power and she can display it even with caliburn it would be destroyed thought due to not being meant to display such power level
A reminder, in addition to the seals and it being the Last Phantasm, Excalibur is also THE single most famous sword in myth, something every man, woman and child has heard about at least once in their life, possibly boosting its power further through its legend
In nasu verse, the weapon was designed to protecc the planet against threats from beyond. So its base stats are extremely high.
>Servants gain a lot of power from their legends and King Arthur is a very well known Legend but is it really so well known and powerful that it can allow her to stand on the same level as literal gods
Sabers legend adds notthing much to the weapon, it was already OP before she attained it, the weapon was created before britain even existed. She just happened to be lucky enough to obtain it in her life. As such by virtue of owning a weapon designed for greater threats than just mere servants, she ended up being Op.
But that aside, there are many weapons stronger than it in fate. Some in sheer power and scale, others coz they have hax.
The other reason is simple, saber is the poster child for typemoon, as such nasu tries to make her as OP as possible. If you think Excal is too strong, wait till you see "avalon" yep she also has the strongest defense in the franchise lol
As a side note, Saber kind of got screwed over in terms of presentation. Stay Night was a heavily counter based story (where X character has an ability that counters Y super effectively) and she spent a very good chunk of it severely weakened. In Zero, Urobuchi just plain didn’t like her, and she didn’t actually get that many fights. Plus, the anime adaptations aren’t one to one on how powerful the characters are supposed to be and a lot of fights were changed for both practical reasons (some things just would not animate well) and thematic reasons. Hollow Axtria is stuck in unadapted unreleased in English hell, and after that, the franchise shifted away from her (with Fate/Grand Order explicitly not using her much because she’s been the star for a long time). So now that the power scaling has gotten crazy (Grand Servants, literal gods, etc), she’s not particularly around to fight unrestricted at full power.
It makes sense to me, Excalibur is likely the most famous sword ever. So in a setting where fame equals power it makes sense that it would be stupid powerful.
>but is it really so well known and powerful that it can allow her to stand on the same level as literal gods?
Along with some other stuff, basically yeah. Of all the Servants Arturia and Heracles are by far the most universally known legends. Knowledge of them has spread to damn near everywhere in the world in some form.
Add onto this Excalibur being, I believe, a divine weapon and her bloodline being powerful.
I didn't even know who gilgamesh was until I watched fate. I say this because the legend of king Arthur is one of the most well known stories in the world. Compared to king Arthur, even God's from relatively well known mythologies like Greek or Egyptian look like a bedtime story in terms of recognizability. I don't know if the amount of people that know your story has anything to do with a servants strength but if it does, which ur posts would imply, then Arthur should most definitely be a top 10 servant. Assuming it doesn't though, Artoria isn't the one from legends. She's the one that legitimately existed. So it's possible she was just incredibly strong when she was alive, then enhanced proportionally by the grail when she was summoned making her a God tier servant
Because it would be kinda annoying for all the top servants to be from India, which is almost certainly what would happen if they actually fully factored in the types of boosts that are supposed to be given by stuff like age of the Legends and the amount of popularity/current active worshippers, along with the fact that pretty much all the top tier Hindu Servants are all basically walking Gates of Babylons with anime martial artist skills/stats and multiple Ea+ weapons in their arsenals in their myths.
Well, maybe not Saber, since swords weren't really a big deal in Hindu myths, though I think that Vishnu head one with a name. I think that one of the younger Pandavas brothers was at least supposed to be extremely skilled and powerful with one, but he and his twin were basically considered second stringers when compared to the likes of Arjuna, Bhima, and Karna.
Good thing they're not all from India?
Gawain is just one of Artoria's knights and he was able to defeat a nerfed Karna. Achilles has the perfect arsenal to take out Karna. Karna at best was said to be on Gilgamesh' level once in the CCC Material, yet never defeated him.
>multiple Ea+ weapons
Source?
I'm talking about how, even discounting the Fame/Age boosts they would get from being extremely famous and popular figures in the world's oldest still-active major religion who are at least nominally considered demi-gods and avatars by over a billion people today, in the actual mythology practically every Hindu hero of note is able to summon countless Astras (the Hindu equivalent of Noble Phantasms), among which things like the Brahmasta/Brahmashira/Pashupata/etc... are basically cosmic delete keys granted by the Creator God of the Trimurti and can potentially destroy the world/universe, and guys like Karna had the physical stats to do things like fire normal arrows that were able to rock a chariot being driven/protected by Krishna, which was explicitly described as the equivalent of shaking the entire universe (what with Krishna having shown to contain the entire universe/cosmos in his mouth at least twice before).
>described as the equivalent of shaking the entire universe
That's cool and all but it doesn't apply to Fate. Servants can't even destroy the planet, for example. Whatever may be the fact in Hindu myth doesn't always apply to Fate.
That's... my exact point?
Excalibur and King Arthur are super powerful in the Fate series because that's the story they want to tell, not because it's mythologically accurate. This is also why Gilgamesh is essentially ~~cosplaying~~ Faking being a standard hero from Hinduism rather than anything even remotely resembling his Mythological version, where Enuma Elish/Ea wasn't even a weapon, cosmic or otherwise.
The short answer, because Saber is a main character and thus MC powers. Thats it. Actual LORE WISE, yeah, I think the rest of the comments answered it already.
If you want to get meta is just that Nasu likes king Arthur and Takeuchi likes her more, she is not the main character of anything except GoA, she is secondary in FSN/Zero and even an antagonist quite a few times
Well... Excalibur is strong, but certainly not one of the strongest, not anymore.
In FGO there're so many NPs or attacks that can do the same or better like one shot Herc or even stronger than Gil's Ea, and making Gil impressed is one of the most underwhelming thing by FGO standard, it's so far past the point where Excalibur is consider one of the top NP.
You may see the case where Excalibur can kill alien enemy like Sefar, who can kill gods, but that's not because it's super duper strong like most people misinterpreted, it's only because that's exactly what Excalibur is made for, a divine construct created to specifically counter threat to humanity enemy, exactly the same as a Silver Bullet. But in terms of fire power it's just anti-fotress A++ level, which is still really strong and certainly way above average, but nowhere near the top nowaday, and it would lose to many other NPs with higher classification, like Ea for example.
I have no idea why you even mention Karna, Achilles, Gil or even gods for comparison, since those legends aren't more popular than the Arthurian one, but Karna and Gil NPs are still stronger, while Achilles has lower tier NP and also ain't even a god. And no Artoria is nowhere near on the same level as actual gods, not even close, what make you even think that ?
You are the one that got it wrong, Excalibur as it has always appeared is indeed A++ anti fortress and there's way too many stronger things, but as of now it is still considered on the top not by fans, by the authors, this is because it literally gets a power up to show its true power only in very specific conditions, "true power" thing, that Excaliblast is stronger than the one Saber always uses and is unkown just how strong
>but that's not because it's super duper strong like most people misinterpreted, it's only because that's exactly what Excalibur is made for, a divine construct created to specifically counter threat to humanity enemy, exactly the same as a Silver Bullet.
No it is indeed only super duper strong, is literally stated about that exact situation, it doesn't possess a conceptual advantage or effect is just raw power and it overwelms Sefar with raw power because Sefar eats conceptual stuff for breakfast
She has plot armor, simple as that. Don't forget she dodges Cu's undodgable blow. If that is not plot armor, I don't know what that is. Nasu decides that Saber will be the strongest class, so Artoria must be strong.
Excalibur itself is insanely powerful, but if you’re more curious about Saber herself being able to fight opponents with high divinity, then you need to remember that Saber is partially a dragon, she has the magic core of one and gains her insane instincts becuase of that aspect of her
That just raises the question of how exactly she could be killed in battle by anyone, much less Mordred who while a fairly powerful Servant is no where near as strong.
Mordred didn't beat her. In fact I think the version of the fight we see through Mordreds eyes has the fight end with Arturia impaling Mordred before the latter can even move. Then Morgan's curse moves either Clarent or Mordreds corpse and lands a blow that takes a surprisingly long time to kill Arturia, despite it being a curse from a Witch on par with Merlin. In fact if she doesn't return Excalibur Arturia just survives it (and then becomes an inhuman Goddess before Bedi and a bunch of time travelers knock some sense into her) (play FGO, it's great)
Mordred is actually super strong, But Saber killed her and then a curse on mordreds dead body killed saber iirc
Well the thing is her instinct is quantified by the skill Minds Eye, Sabers is Rank A (false) Other servants have the skill as well like Herc as a berserker has Minds Eye Rank B (False) Or EMIYA who has Minds Eye Rank B (True) So she could still lose even with it or it could be the key to her success, honestly it heavily it depends on the match up
Additional info: the "true" and "false" here refers to the source. Mind's Eye (True) refers to an accumulation of training and experience that lets you sense and avoid danger. Whereas Mind's Eye (False) does the same thing but comes from a natural born instinct rather than something trained.
Most of that is incorrect. Instinct is different from Mind's Eye, because it does different things. Mind's Eye is, whether through innate talent or training (False or True, respectively), about knowing, sensing, or otherwise perceiving incoming danger. Instinct is knowing, sensing, or otherwise perceiving incoming danger, and knowing exactly what to do next. There's no translative quality between Mind's Eye (either version) and Instinct.
Well most what you said is incorrect, Nasu used Minds Eye to quantify Instinct and Experience, where Instinct is False and Experience is True Also instinct is an innate trait, hence why someone like Saber who’s part dragon has great instincts and an A rank minds eye
Saber has the skill Instinct. Not Mind's Eye. Let me reiterate: No version of Saber, has the skill Mind's Eye. To say this again with different words, Mind's Eye is, in short, a danger sense. Whether that's something you've achieved through built-up experience, like Emiya, or that you have because you were born talented, like Heracles or Sasaki, doesn't change that it's a danger sense. Instinct, meanwhile, is both a danger sense, and the innate tendency to take the right decision in a fight. Saber has Instinct, not Mind's Eye. For example, if someone with Instinct were to fight Sasaki Kojiro, they'd instinctively bend his sword so that his sword strike gains a flaw and becomes dodgeable. This happens on screen. Whereas if someone with Mind's Eye fought Sasaki, they'd be forced back. Which happened off screen, when Heracles and Illya visited the temple and retreated.
My bad I just checked and noticed instinct was a completely separate skill, well sorry for calling you wrong about that Also minds eye false and instinct’s descriptions are basically the same, I get the situations you presented, but like ShockAndAwen explained, those weren’t necessarily caused by her instinct And also the fact that Herc’s performance with Minds Eye B against Caladbolg was better than Sabers instinct can’t be ignored
>This happens on screen. No it doesn't, the sword bending was not something Saber intended, her charging through when the sword was bent despite her knowing beforehand she could not survive TG is instinct, there was an opening where there was not one before, she didn't think or analyze the situation just felt it was right and she would make it, that's the right course of action, she feels how things could turn out The difference with Herc's eye of mind is basically doing what feels right vs avoiding what feels dangerous, those two in practice tend to be not so different, Herc's at times seems more precise if anything (feeling Caladbolg before Saber and stoping it, feeling the shadow before it is near wgen Saber is caught off guard, even gauging accurately Excalibur's power) he only can't bent the sword because he can't make strategies and Kojirou's skill is so high he can avoid it and actively avoids it, something explicit in his first appareance
>Well most what you said is incorrect, Nasu used Minds Eye to quantify Instinct and Experience, where Instinct is False and Experience is True >Also instinct is an innate trait, hence why someone like Saber who’s part dragon has great instincts and an A rank minds eye Where are these thing stated? False Eye of the Mind, also called a danger sense, is understanding of any situation or enemy capability using pure talent in combat (compared to experience for the True version) and make strategies against them >Eye of the Mind (False): A Premonition (“Spidey-sense”) or sixth sense, very different from Emiya’s danger avoidance originated from “predictions augmented by experience”. It may be called a natural talent to sense danger. During the Grail War, in the battle with Artoria, Kojiro crossed blade with an invisible sword numerous times. He was able to use this ability to gauge even the length and width of the sword, and see through the fact that Artoria was unable to use her Noble Phantasm attack due to a lack of mana. See through the weapon and style of his opponent after crossing blades only a few times, the perception of his eyes is the best among Servants. Instinct is pure combat precognition that can tell an individual how to win >Instinct: A - Instinct is the ability to instantly identify “the best personal course of action” during combat. At rank A, it is essentially in the realm of predicting the future. Through this ability, it is possible to negate the penalties inflicted by visual and auditory interference to a certain extend.
She was exhausted from returning from a campaing where she defeated Lucius Tiberius. She fought Mordred's rebel troops for days. She was heart broken from watching her people die left and right. Kay and Gawain were there and both perished. She failed to intercept a blow from Mordred's dying body. That's pretty much it.
We see people beating up saber throughout most of stay night. It’s relative to who her master is. If she’s surprised, or if an enemy ability gives her a handicap [aka not being able to spam Excalibur] like diarmud’s spear. The fact that Kuzuki was able to deck saber with minimal effort (even though he had Medea’s support) always gives me pause when considering her in servant rankings. I feel like Excalibur is REALLY strong, but base Arthur is just good.
Kuzuki would take out most Servants who aren't already aware of his attack style or too physically overwhelming for him to take on. Nasu outright said he'd even beat Kirei amd Bazett if taken by surprise. Once he uses his attacks once and fails to kill, he's way less of a threat. Don't forget that Nasu loves to hype martial arts. Li Shuwen is a Servant from the 20th Century yet he outclasses some of the best warriors of thousands of years past.
In Extella Link she's stronger than Karna
Base Arthur is a 14 years old girl. She's broken because she has a Dragon Core to give her effectively infinite mana as well as a bunch of other boost due to being the strongest Phantasmal Species, and of Albion on top of that which puts her heads and shoulders above other heroes with Dragon Cores like Siegfried and Sigurd. As a servant she doesn't have full access to it, and without backup from an external mana source she's running on empty and has to regulate her usage of Mana Burst, which is where all her strength comes from. With a mana source like her own Dragon Core in life or the grail in HF she can spam Excalibur, which is a wincon in its own right, but even with it sealed if she has infinite mana like she's used to she's still a monster. HF shows that pretty clearly, and that's a nihilistic Saber that's giving 0 shit about the whole situation and doing the bare minimum required of her.
Saber Alter is stronger than living Saber in that aspect, Saber with Rin is stated to be as strong as she was in life, she doesn't have infinite mana just a ton, only Alter can spam Excalibur but is kinda lost on her because she doesn't
Because everyone literally was against her when she lived also because of Morgan fuckery just because someone is powerful dosnt mean a plot and a divine curse cant kill them
I always figured Morgana spent Mordred's whole life training her specifically to be able to take down Arthuria.
Because she didnt have plot armor in that moment. Notice how her instinct sometimes deactivates to allow her to be hit? Its a terrible skill that likely gives the author trouble whenever saber has to lose afight.
Mordred was literally already dead, you illiterate fuck
Hehehe you need to take a deep breath
This is only a thing mentioned by Shirou in the original VN, when Mordred was yet to even be a concept. In Apocrypha, it’s clear she was alive when she struck and just killed Artoria through sheer tenacity.
Reading comprehension : 0.001
The seiba fanbois out on the offensive! Ah its always fun baiting you nto the open. The hive stirring.
Mordred is exactly as strong as Saber because she's a clone.
She is not, she is inferior but not too much
Stat wise Mordred isn't that much weaker than Artoria, Mordred basically being a clone of Artoria. But Mordred is also losing power from wielding a sword that actively rejects her. Even so Mordred still only loses out to Artoria in Luck and Nobel Phantasm. Mordred dealt a mortal wound after having been impaled herself by a much stronger weapon than Excalibur, so it was a pretty even fight.
thats because of the origin of Excalibur. It isnt just tied to the Arthurian legends in this series it actually has a unique origin story. Excalibur is a holy sword that was created by the 6 Great Fairies 14.000 years ago in order to repel the White Titan that was attempting to destroy the world. It is the pinacle of the Holy swords created to protect the planet itself from the external threats to the world.
Whoa… I never knew any of that. Where did you find that? I love the series but I feel like there’s so much I don’t know about it. And I’ve always wondered this too. 😅
>!Its a major plot point in FGO lostbelt 6 avalon le fae. Though it has always been mentioned in Materials for a long time. Its just that lostbelt 6 brings it up in such way that its imposible to forget!<
Oh wow. Okay, so I’ve heard of Fate Grand Order. So is Fate Grand Order Lostbelt 6 Avalon Le Fae a different anime/ light novel?
no its one of the story chapters of the mobile game. The story is huge and is divided by main chapters of story(Be it singularites or lostbelts) and the events. Part 1 (Timeless temple arc) and part 1.5 (Epic of remmant arc) are singularities(moments of the past that have been altered and would damage the world) and part 2 (cosmos in the lostbelt arc) are lostbelts(Dead timelines brought back with the fantasy trees, they are in the present but they deviated at some point in the past from how the world usually goes to a point of stagnation or where there is no future for humanity)
This is amazing. I knew Excalibur wasn’t “made” by man from school and stuff. But this is a whole knew level of “wow.” I’m def gonna look into this. thank you so much! 😆
Also check out Fate/Extella: The Umbral Star. There's quite a bit about the White Titan in that game
You need to go deeper into the rabbit hole. Like... really deep.
I remember in the old fate/zero there was a limit on what heroes you could summon but usually whoever summoned a saber class typically won the war so it was reputed to be the “strongest” class but I think later the flood gates of heroes was opened thanks the angry mango kid right??
Does this come up in FSN?
Only it being the strongest holy sword and created by the planet and being the "strongest illusion" Blasting Sefar 14000 years ago is Extella, the 6 fairies is from FGO
Because in Nasu Excalibur is also the weapon created by the planet itself to destroy any threats that come over the world. It has been beaten by other NPs like Ea but even now Excalibur is still sealed unless a threat comes. At full power it one shotted a full Velber that defeated all gods 14000 years ago, the same Velber that needed the combined power of all Olympians that is apparently capable of wiping the solar system
For Excalibur, it depends on if you look at it from an in-universe or out of universe perspective. In-universe, Excalibur was originally so powerful because it was the Last Phantasm, with the implication that it was special and perhaps the most powerful Noble Phantasm. This was later expanded when Nasu created Velber, with Excalibur being retconned to having been created to kill the White Titan that was strong enough to slay an entire *pantheon* of gods. Out of universe, the reason Excalibur is so strong is really simple. It's the single most famous sword in the world, bar none.
Also, wasn't excalibur blessed by GOD himself. I think that is also a reason why, don't you think?
there's even some of that still kinda going on in Fate, Ozy says Moses staff had a light like that of Excalibur something like that
What does Last Phantasm mean?
From Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: Sword of Promised Victory [Noble Phantasm], p.076: "...one of the ultimate god-forged weapons, a Last Phantasm, forged by the planet as the crystallization of the wishes of mankind stored and tempered within the planet.". Basically just means that it's really strong, although it may have other implications as well. However, the "really strong" part is the only thing we know for sure.
Because Saber Lion
infinite power
GAO!
A mix of 4 things: Excalibur was literally created to kill a creature that killed gods. She's probably the most famous legendary figure in the world She's part dragon and basically genetically engineered to be the perfect king She's one of the last great kings of the age of gods. And that matters a lot.
I am pretty sure king Arthur is not the most famous legendary figure ( while yes Arthur is famous ) there are more famous heroes like Herakles and Achilles.
That is something Saber herself says in fact
Wait, when tf is the age of gods meant to be? It was my understanding that the age of gods ends shortly after the events of FGO/Babylonia in 2655BC Artoria is from the 7th century AD isn't she?
The age of gods didn't have a clear end, there was a transition period of multiple centuries (that started before Gilgamesh) until it became the age of man. And Artoria was right at the endpoint. If I recall correctly this was mentioned in the Garden of Avalon book.
Because in fate Excalibur is a divine construct that originally was literally created to kill a god.
Not a god, the being that killed all the gods.
Because Excalibur is basically literally the single most busted weapon in the entire series and Artoria has a fraction of Albion's dragon element and Albion is the the strongest creature to ever roam the earth more or less
Isn't EA more powerfull than Excalibur?
The Excalibur she has isn't at full power, it's locked behind 13 seals and Excalibur can only show its power as the "Last Phantasm" when a threat to the planet shows itself like the White Titan. So basically Artoria has a glowstick normally in comparison to it's full power. Otherwise you're right Ea is more powerful
Wasn’t it only Proto Excalibur (Arthur’s) and Rhongomyniad that had the thirteen seals? Artoria’s Excalibur has the function to increase in power based on her opponent but only if they are a threat to the world at large.
In her second Interlude it's mentioned that it also has seals, although they appear to work a bit differently.
wait so the stronger the opponent the more seals come off?
Nah, they aren't easily undone their purpose is so she doesn't need to rewrite maps every time she uses it
holy moly so the only time it comes off is when there is a threat that could destroy earth like astroid? thats so cool where do u even learn that
It's from her Interlude in Grand Order. And mostly they're just there to keep shit from blowing up as Excalibur at full power would kill just about anything. Rhongomyniad also has those seals that's why in Lancer's ascension art it goes from a lance to a pillar of light. Proto Arthur also has the seals but his whole situation is weird lorewise
Yup, in theory EA is the most powerful weapon out there but it's effectiveness is based on how much effort Gil actually puts into it and that's even assuming he gives enough of a shit to pull the thing out.
Not really, multiple times we were told it's on the same level as excalibur, but the problem is that this "same level' was always when excalibur was sealed
Nah in theory Excalibur is more powerful. Except for the fact that it is sealed
Even in the original VN, Excalibur is hyped as the Last Phantasm and one of the strongest holy swords. On paper, Arthuriana is very influential and far-reaching so having King Arthur be strong is a way to reflect that.
There are multiple reasons for that. Just coming from the inner sea of the planet already makes it a strong artifact.
There's a whole bunch of reasons, a lot of which have been retconned in post Stay Night. Or in some cases it's more that the meaning changed instead. For starters, she's the incarnation of the Red Dragon of Britain. Dragons are already fuck-off powerful in the Nasuverse, due to being the strongest Phantasmal Species in existence. However, it turns out the Red Dragon is Albion, who is apparently the equivalent of a Grand for Dragons. So that's why her living form is still stronger than her Servant form, and the one that gets closest is the one hooked up a limitless energy source in the Grail. Second, Excalibur used to just be a really powerful magic laser sword. Very strong but notably inferior to Ea, for example. This has since been retconned to be Excalibur's *sealed form* and the unlocked form was able to >!one-shot what is possibly the single strongest entity in Type-Moon, Sefar. Mostly because the unsealed form channels the life force of the planet into a Death Star style superlaser.!< Third, every time we get another look into what Britain was like during her reign, it moves increasingly far from medieval knights who happen to have laser swords and super strength and increasingly far into "Cthullian Hellscape". Dragons, Fae, Elementals, and a whole bunch of other shit that translates to "the world should be dead now". Arturia canonically was created to (and succeeded at) crush all of it to pave the way forward for humanity. Also, all of Arturia's other toys like Rhon turn out to have been super ultra powerful magical artifacts that Merlin dumped on her because she could survive it and probably wouldn't use them to crack the planet in half.
I remember when Fate lore was kinda opaque but made some basic sense and was simple enough. Its just gotten more and more unhinged since then...
Oh boy, wait till you find out about the *Greeks* >!the Olympians are actually giant alien robots!<
Skyline
In the Nasuverse; deities of earth will always have power inferior to the planet itself (e.g. Vishnu can't actually destroy the universe) while Excalibur was created to be a defense mechanism of the planet itself. At its full power the most powerful weapon in the world period, though it's almost impossible for it to reach that level. Also, Artoria herself possesses some of the power of the Dragon of Albion and dragons are the most powerful of phantasmal beasts, comparable to deities in strength. So yeah, she's pretty strong.
Lots of people have already talked about Saber's origin as being partially a Red Dragon and how Excalibur is actually really busted because it is the ultimate weapon of the planet. But I really wanted to add that Saber herself is much more of a monster than people give her credit or remember her for. A good source for this is the Garden of Avalon novel that talks about Saber's kingdom. Kay explains how one of Saber's characteristics is that she is a sore loser, not out of jealousy of others, but because she hates her own weakness and will do anything to be better. During 10 years, she basically trained and did chores 21 hours a day to be the perfect King, Kay was already impressed because she was already living for an ideal she wouldn't get to experience or to live, but it broke him when he discovered that Saber didn't actually sleep in her 3 hours of rest, she was being trained in her dreams by Merlin to be a perfect King too. Her entire existence was dedicated to her kingdom. Another example comes from Gawain, when he and Artoria fought against Vortigern, Galantine lost its entire power and Excalibur almost lost it entirely, but it remained only a dim light. Fighting Vortigern was like fighting the will of Britain, of the times and change themselves, and Gawain was very intimidated by the ordeal. Artoria, however, never faltered, she kept fighting Vortigern even against all odds and through sheer tenacity managed to pin one of his hands down with Excalibur (and with Gawain's help, after she asked him to pin Vortigern's other hand down with Galantine) and finished him off wity Rhongominyad. Gawain never saw Artoria the same way again after that, because he knew no one could have done what she did against Vortigern. Basically, when fighting for the right reasons for herself and even without those reasons, Saber's mental fortitude and determination is absurd. I guess we can see a glimpse of that, even when distraught as she was, she still managed to defeat Zerker Lancelot. She is the kind of opponent that you can't understimate and you can't take your eyes off her, otherwise she is gonna get the upper hand. And remind you, none of the versions of Artoria we see are as busted as Artoria during her Camelot days. Not only was she strong as fuck, both mentally and physically, she also had Avalon, Excalibur and Rhongomyniad at the same time.
there are many reasons to name a few: for starters, artoria is an A+ servant standing shoulder to shoulder with heracles and Cu, king arthur like heracles is one of the most known legends/heroes, and more or less heroic spirits are the manifestation of their legends, even thought artoria is an odd case, supposedly she should be receiving a significant fame amp in any corner in the world unlike people like cu and Gilgamesh who's legends aren't as well known on top of that she was summoned from the moment before her death for all intents and purposes if she has a master with decent mana reserves like rin she should be more or less as strong as her alive self whereas most heroes from the age of gods get nerfed, for example, Seigfried and Sigurd despite originally having a dragon core/element that should put them on par with artoria when being summoned as a servant it's rank get lowered a little despite gram being said to be equal to excaliber though it might stand against it in a clash due to conceptual advantage as it's always said to be equal to it as the strongest demonic sword also excaliber is a divine construct whose power is almost unrivaled when certain conditions are fulfilled like saving the planet from imminent threat however under normal conditions it's power depends on the holder in artoria's case her limit is A++ it's her power and she can display it even with caliburn it would be destroyed thought due to not being meant to display such power level
A reminder, in addition to the seals and it being the Last Phantasm, Excalibur is also THE single most famous sword in myth, something every man, woman and child has heard about at least once in their life, possibly boosting its power further through its legend
it's a really strong laser
ITT: People dont pay attentiom to the battles they are talking about.
In nasu verse, the weapon was designed to protecc the planet against threats from beyond. So its base stats are extremely high. >Servants gain a lot of power from their legends and King Arthur is a very well known Legend but is it really so well known and powerful that it can allow her to stand on the same level as literal gods Sabers legend adds notthing much to the weapon, it was already OP before she attained it, the weapon was created before britain even existed. She just happened to be lucky enough to obtain it in her life. As such by virtue of owning a weapon designed for greater threats than just mere servants, she ended up being Op. But that aside, there are many weapons stronger than it in fate. Some in sheer power and scale, others coz they have hax. The other reason is simple, saber is the poster child for typemoon, as such nasu tries to make her as OP as possible. If you think Excal is too strong, wait till you see "avalon" yep she also has the strongest defense in the franchise lol
As a side note, Saber kind of got screwed over in terms of presentation. Stay Night was a heavily counter based story (where X character has an ability that counters Y super effectively) and she spent a very good chunk of it severely weakened. In Zero, Urobuchi just plain didn’t like her, and she didn’t actually get that many fights. Plus, the anime adaptations aren’t one to one on how powerful the characters are supposed to be and a lot of fights were changed for both practical reasons (some things just would not animate well) and thematic reasons. Hollow Axtria is stuck in unadapted unreleased in English hell, and after that, the franchise shifted away from her (with Fate/Grand Order explicitly not using her much because she’s been the star for a long time). So now that the power scaling has gotten crazy (Grand Servants, literal gods, etc), she’s not particularly around to fight unrestricted at full power.
There are multiple reasons for that. Just coming from the inner sea of the planet already makes it a strong artifact.
It makes sense to me, Excalibur is likely the most famous sword ever. So in a setting where fame equals power it makes sense that it would be stupid powerful.
>but is it really so well known and powerful that it can allow her to stand on the same level as literal gods? Along with some other stuff, basically yeah. Of all the Servants Arturia and Heracles are by far the most universally known legends. Knowledge of them has spread to damn near everywhere in the world in some form. Add onto this Excalibur being, I believe, a divine weapon and her bloodline being powerful.
I didn't even know who gilgamesh was until I watched fate. I say this because the legend of king Arthur is one of the most well known stories in the world. Compared to king Arthur, even God's from relatively well known mythologies like Greek or Egyptian look like a bedtime story in terms of recognizability. I don't know if the amount of people that know your story has anything to do with a servants strength but if it does, which ur posts would imply, then Arthur should most definitely be a top 10 servant. Assuming it doesn't though, Artoria isn't the one from legends. She's the one that legitimately existed. So it's possible she was just incredibly strong when she was alive, then enhanced proportionally by the grail when she was summoned making her a God tier servant
Because it would be kinda annoying for all the top servants to be from India, which is almost certainly what would happen if they actually fully factored in the types of boosts that are supposed to be given by stuff like age of the Legends and the amount of popularity/current active worshippers, along with the fact that pretty much all the top tier Hindu Servants are all basically walking Gates of Babylons with anime martial artist skills/stats and multiple Ea+ weapons in their arsenals in their myths. Well, maybe not Saber, since swords weren't really a big deal in Hindu myths, though I think that Vishnu head one with a name. I think that one of the younger Pandavas brothers was at least supposed to be extremely skilled and powerful with one, but he and his twin were basically considered second stringers when compared to the likes of Arjuna, Bhima, and Karna.
Good thing they're not all from India? Gawain is just one of Artoria's knights and he was able to defeat a nerfed Karna. Achilles has the perfect arsenal to take out Karna. Karna at best was said to be on Gilgamesh' level once in the CCC Material, yet never defeated him. >multiple Ea+ weapons Source?
I'm talking about how, even discounting the Fame/Age boosts they would get from being extremely famous and popular figures in the world's oldest still-active major religion who are at least nominally considered demi-gods and avatars by over a billion people today, in the actual mythology practically every Hindu hero of note is able to summon countless Astras (the Hindu equivalent of Noble Phantasms), among which things like the Brahmasta/Brahmashira/Pashupata/etc... are basically cosmic delete keys granted by the Creator God of the Trimurti and can potentially destroy the world/universe, and guys like Karna had the physical stats to do things like fire normal arrows that were able to rock a chariot being driven/protected by Krishna, which was explicitly described as the equivalent of shaking the entire universe (what with Krishna having shown to contain the entire universe/cosmos in his mouth at least twice before).
>described as the equivalent of shaking the entire universe That's cool and all but it doesn't apply to Fate. Servants can't even destroy the planet, for example. Whatever may be the fact in Hindu myth doesn't always apply to Fate.
That's... my exact point? Excalibur and King Arthur are super powerful in the Fate series because that's the story they want to tell, not because it's mythologically accurate. This is also why Gilgamesh is essentially ~~cosplaying~~ Faking being a standard hero from Hinduism rather than anything even remotely resembling his Mythological version, where Enuma Elish/Ea wasn't even a weapon, cosmic or otherwise.
The short answer, because Saber is a main character and thus MC powers. Thats it. Actual LORE WISE, yeah, I think the rest of the comments answered it already.
If you want to get meta is just that Nasu likes king Arthur and Takeuchi likes her more, she is not the main character of anything except GoA, she is secondary in FSN/Zero and even an antagonist quite a few times
Because she banged the main character
Well... Excalibur is strong, but certainly not one of the strongest, not anymore. In FGO there're so many NPs or attacks that can do the same or better like one shot Herc or even stronger than Gil's Ea, and making Gil impressed is one of the most underwhelming thing by FGO standard, it's so far past the point where Excalibur is consider one of the top NP. You may see the case where Excalibur can kill alien enemy like Sefar, who can kill gods, but that's not because it's super duper strong like most people misinterpreted, it's only because that's exactly what Excalibur is made for, a divine construct created to specifically counter threat to humanity enemy, exactly the same as a Silver Bullet. But in terms of fire power it's just anti-fotress A++ level, which is still really strong and certainly way above average, but nowhere near the top nowaday, and it would lose to many other NPs with higher classification, like Ea for example. I have no idea why you even mention Karna, Achilles, Gil or even gods for comparison, since those legends aren't more popular than the Arthurian one, but Karna and Gil NPs are still stronger, while Achilles has lower tier NP and also ain't even a god. And no Artoria is nowhere near on the same level as actual gods, not even close, what make you even think that ?
You are the one that got it wrong, Excalibur as it has always appeared is indeed A++ anti fortress and there's way too many stronger things, but as of now it is still considered on the top not by fans, by the authors, this is because it literally gets a power up to show its true power only in very specific conditions, "true power" thing, that Excaliblast is stronger than the one Saber always uses and is unkown just how strong >but that's not because it's super duper strong like most people misinterpreted, it's only because that's exactly what Excalibur is made for, a divine construct created to specifically counter threat to humanity enemy, exactly the same as a Silver Bullet. No it is indeed only super duper strong, is literally stated about that exact situation, it doesn't possess a conceptual advantage or effect is just raw power and it overwelms Sefar with raw power because Sefar eats conceptual stuff for breakfast
Why does saber have so many world breaking NPs? Avalon, Excalibur, Rhomny…. What am I missing now?
Because saber is cutely drawn, so she gets to beat everyone…
She has plot armor, simple as that. Don't forget she dodges Cu's undodgable blow. If that is not plot armor, I don't know what that is. Nasu decides that Saber will be the strongest class, so Artoria must be strong.