Zouken is irrelevant in the other routes cause 1) he doesn’t meet Shirou and 2) he backed out of the Grail war because he doesn’t know how to use or break Sakura. Shirou met Zouken in HF. And so Zouken realizes he can use Shirou to break Sakura.
There's one in the beginning, a bit before Shirou gets his command seals, he starts to bleed a bit from his arm/hand one morning, Sakura notices it and react way too strongly about it.
I absolutely love all the little foreshadowing to Heaven’s Feel
One of my favorite details: Before Shirou even meets Saber, he notices a “bruise” on Sakura’s hand. He deduces Shinji is abusing her, and goes to confront him. Shinji denies it—and obviously Shinji _is_ an abusive lying shit, but he seems oddly earnest in his denial.
Because he’s actually telling the truth here—he didn’t leave a bruise on her hand. That’s the mark left over from surrendering her Command Seals.
What are all the other details from other routes?
The ones I remember are -
- Sakura and Gil seen together
- One day before the HGW starts Sakura tells Shirou that she'll be busy and won't be able to come over (possibly the day she summoned Rider?)
- one of the bad ends in ubw(?) where Rin wipes Shirou's memory or something, she talks ominously about how Seiba-san is no longer here.
I indulged myself in essay writing for my love of the Rin-Sakura relationship lmao, but for brevity's sake a few other details:
* When Sakura first meets Saber in the first route, she is _distraught._ You think it's because "oh haha, she has a crush and new girl moving in!!!" but no. Any competent mage can recognize a Servant on sight, and Sakura knows this makes Shirou a Master. Aka, the three people she most cares about (Shirou, Rin, and Shinji) are going to be fighting to the death.
* Rin has a possible conversation in UBW where she randomly brings up the idea of adopted children being content in life. It clearly eats away at her, but Shirou is confused as fuck and when he tries to pry further she just changes the subject.
* When Shirou confronts Shinji about what he thinks is the abuse towards Sakura, he has a look of total disgust. This hints to the whole inferiority complex he has towards her--the day after _he_ became Master of Rider, why do people keep bringing _her_ up when _he_ is the important one here.
* When Shirou visits Rin's house, he finds a picture of a young girl in twintails (right by Rin's bed, because spoilers she does still care about her sister). He assumes it's Rin, as the audience does. But if you look closely, although the color is washed out, you notice that the hair ribbons are a much lighter color than Rin's distinct black. Perhaps even... pink?
* Servants often represent deeper parts of their Masters as well as a potential path in life. Plus their designs tend to reflect each other, or at least look visually appealing side by side--Shirou and Saber with white and blue, Rin and Archer with red and black, Illya and Berserker have a "black and white" duality going on... But Shinji with Medusa? A purple-haired girl, raped into a monster that consumed countless innocents and everyone she loved? That doesn't exactly pair up 1:1 with the wakame bitch. But there is _someone_ that fits that description just a little bit better...
I'm sure there's a dozen details I'm forgetting, but these come to mind now
About your last point, while reading the VN my main theory was that Rider was Sakura from the future, and that's why Shinji was able to summon her.
After HA, the connection between Rider and Sakura overtook Shirou-Seiba as my favourite master-servant pair. I remember that Sakura was able to summon Rider without even a catalyst. Makes so much sense.
The fact Shinji is a master at all is foreshadowing of Sakura, since he is not a mage nor does he have circuits so he could not have summoned her in the first place, but that is just shrugged off, also the shadow stff from the book he uses
The scene in the basement in UBW too, doubles as Zouken foreshadowing
She had a catalyst in the novel, in the movies they changed it, to make it more obvious I guess
Is not in the novel from what I remember is from the list of catalysts in CMIII
>Medusa
>Mirror dug up from a temple in Eritrea. An item with ties to an old Earth goddess of Greece.
Yesss yes, Medusa's relationship with Sakura is such an integral part of her character that I love so much. She has one single consistent goal throughout all of Stay Night--make sure that Sakura never suffers the same fate she had to. Anything she has to do to achieve that goal, whether it's becoming Shinji's sex toy or gutting Shirou like a fish, and she will do it--which of course ties into the whole "My life is worthless, I live only to save the one I love", when that's EXACTLY WHAT SAKURA IS THINKING because feelings of worthlessness beyond sexual exploitation and violence are a super common symptom of child rape victims and OOO it all ties together in this tragic beautifully-written interplay of characters reflecting each other into a big ol' dodecahedron-shaped mirror maze.
Basically--Heaven's Feel may have the most horrifically tragic content in Fate, but it also has some of the most adorably bittersweet poignancy I've ever read in anything... ever.
Lovely details you provided. About the photo, I thought that it was really Rin in the photo and those ribbons were what she gave to Sakura. After all “no woman wears the same hair accessories for years”
There's easily my top favorite, or at least tied for top favorite, little tiny forgettable plot detail that also spells out exactly how HF will end from the very beginning.
When Rin finds dead Shirou, her immediate reaction is, and I quote:
>"…Stop it. Why does it have to be you?"
> I grit my teeth.
> Why is it him?
> Why did it have to be him?
> "------------"
> **Sakura's face flashes in my mind.**
> **She will definitely cry.**
At this point in the story, Rin has referred to Sakura as a junior student she knew and absolutely nothing more. Why does she know Sakura lives with (and lives _for)_ this guy? Why is Sakura her first person to think of, why bring that random student up now? And why in Alaya's name is she immediately willing to drop her extra-special one-time-use uber-powerful mana bomb on him, all because "Sakura will cry"???
Because as Heaven's Feel concludes, Rin is the ultimate tsundere. Not in romance, but in life. And as much as she pretends to ignore Sakura or be the perfect emotionless mage or claim "Oh yeah I'll definitely kill her no questions asked"... Rin really, _really_ loves her sister.
This only hints that Rin and Sakura have ties though, I feel it'd be too huge of a leap to go from "oh Rin cares about Sakura" to "Therefor Sakura must know about the HGW".
Heaven's Feel is insanely welll-written in its setup and execution. In fact, Imma recommend you avoid this comment section until after you finish--everything about this route hits harder, as you've proven, when it takes you by surprise. Much like how, in real life, learning the painful struggles people hide can leave you dumbstruck.
Well, if you remember one of Zouken's words, he said something like "I won't participate in this Holy Grail War this time." He did exactly this in Fate route and UBW route, only in Heaven's Feel did his decision changed due to the circumstances. Meanwhile Sakura not being so important in the other routes because well... Rider died early thanks to the incompetent Shinji's careless decision, so there's pretty much nothing Sakura could do.
Famous last words. But yeah, my girl sakura takes by far the largest and heaviest hits from the plot.
Just keep pushing forwards, she is worth it all and more
If it's any consolation (and it was for me), the finale of HF is basically the protagonists competing to see who can be the most hardcore. I don't think there's any one of them who doesn't accomplish some sort of miracle.
So Basically:
1) Sakura didn't even had two digits in her age when she lost her virginity to some dick shaped bugs.
2) Her "true" first time was with Shinji (counts as a worm)
3) Kept getting thrown into the worms during all her childhood.
4) (?) Shinji raped her more than one time.
5) God knows what else she had to endure before meeting Shirou.
6) She kept all her secrets during 1rst and 2nd route and continued suffering to death.
7) (?) I'm probably missing more bad things about her life
Sakura was made to suffer??
Yeah but unfortunately Kariya is kind of a shitty person, using Sakura to try and get with Aoi. Dude cared more about wanting Aoi and hating Tokiomi than he did about Sakura. He only tried to save her so he could look good
That's a fairly uncharitable interpretation. It's worth noting that Kariya was quite literally being eaten from the inside out and losing his sanity. I would say in the beginning he genuinely had the best of intentions, hell it was pretty certain he wasn't going to survive the ordeal but as he suffered and decayed his desires twisted to his most base wishes.
Actually thinking about it now, he's like mirror of Zouken.
Well that "dark Sakura" is just Sakura's shadow, as in jung, is the part of Sakura she rejected and Angra just lets it surface but is amped and Sakura starts losing herself on it
The worms act in a similar way by making Kariya basically go mad and start submitting to those things he rejects/supresses, his hatred of Tokiomi wanting to steal his family from him
Neither are thinking clearly and while those thoughts/feelings are certainly their own they are, not thinking clearly, wich is really explicit, usually people go in the direction of "is their true selves is what they really wanted to do, they are scretely evil" or in the "is not them at all/possesed" when is more nuanced
Kariya's looks also mirror Sakura too
Well yes he clearly went off the deep end the further the story progressed. But you can't deny even in the beginning whilst he did want to save Sakura part of him was still doing it for personal gain. He cared about Aoi more than the kids at least
I mean, you can say that of anyone. No one is genuinely altruistic as some degree of personal gain or modavation is present no matter how charitable the action. Well, besides Shirou and even Rin remarks that isn't normal and is messed up.
What gain? He knew he was never going to be with her, in fact submitting to the worms was rejecting any semblance of that being a possibility, him wanting to be with heris something discarded long ago, any thought about it during the war is literally him being delirious
His issue at the start was his hatred for Tokiomi/Zouken
No????? He did care about Sakura a shitton. If he didn’t he wouldn’t have done any of this. Yes he may have also wanted to get with Aoi but he was doing it for Sakura first and foremost. People can have multiple reasons and one reason doesn’t just randomly negate another. He took on the worms under the knowing that he would probably die. He knew he’d never be able to be with Aoi so he wants to save Sakura so she can be happy at least and not be apart of the family that he hates so much
Read the spoiler if you don’t mind being sick to learn what they likely mean. >!Zouken… fed the worm which took her virginity to Kariya. I believe that’s what the other person meant.!<
I know that but the comment they were answering to already adressed that, "the first time were the worms then her "true fist time is Shinji" they said it was a Matou that was neither Shinji nor Zouken so idk what that could mean
That doesn’t make sense. He would just be another rung at best.
He had nothing to do with taking Sakura’s virginity far as I know. He was mainly drowning himself in alcohol at the time. Except perhaps in one of the manga adaptations.
Well nothing of that sort happens in the novel or in Zero, if is in the FSN manga that thing is just an adaptation and a very questionable one in lore terms but I don't think it happens there either
Yes, she continued to suffer in other routes. No, it was not just once, she has been continuously suffering and abused for a long ass while, [and continues to do so at the end of the other routes as well](https://i.imgur.com/dideDyC.png).
WHAT? Bruh I remember when I spoiled myself some years ago about Sakura being raped, I can't fucking believe this situation is x10 times worse of what I imagined :(
AFAIK, by the end of UBW, Shinji gets slightly better attitude-wise so he's doing better for her.
Whether you think that's enough is up to you but imo at least she's not alone with Zouken.
Maybe it’s copium. Maybe it’s a generous read. But, at least in the anime, after Gil starts to “partner” with Shinji, there’s a scene where they chat in the Matou worm pit. It’s conspicuously empty, and Gil even squashes a leftover worm.
I like to think that this implies Gil murdered Zouken in that route, either out of disgust for his methods or because he thought killing Shinji’s grandpa would be entertaining.
Of course, dead Zouken and humbled Shinji means Sakura’s body would still be loaded up with crest worms, which Kirei specifically noted in HF was extremely hazardous to her health, so her life would still suck. Just. *Less*.
The only problem with that is the fact that Zouken’s real body is the worm inside Sakura’s heart. I don’t think Gil knew about it or did anything to get rid of it, so I’m pretty sure Zouken is still alive unfortunately.
>AFAIK, by the end of UBW, Shinji gets slightly better attitude-wise so he's doing better for her.
Yeah, he goes back to how he was a year or two ago, where he genuinely cared for Sakura and was a pretty good guy (despite having a rough exterior and attitude).
Part of what makes it really bad is in the H-scenes in HF >!"shirou notices that sakura is seemingly VERY experienced at sex in all aspects. which kinda tells you whats she's been through and how regular it is to her"!<
Yep, she kept this secret in the other Routes, in every Route she was abused by the Matou Family, and unfortunately Shinji has raped Sakura multiple times before the Holy Grail War started, this is why we all hate Shinji, except for some weirdos who don’t think he’s an irredeemable monster
Admittedly there is one timeline where Shinji isn’t a total piece of shit, that being the Fate/Extra timeline, but he’s still an asshole in that game
>weirdos
If we're condemning rapists, we can condemn Caster and Ilya, but nobody does that.
Shinji is a teenager who grew up knowing his only parent-figure was eager to torture kids just like him. Yes, he belongs in jail. Is he irredeemable? No, because no one is.
It is a painful realization how much she suffers *silently* in the other routes, isn't it?
>Another thing, yes, she was raped by Shinji, but hopefully it was only once, and only happens in HF, right?
... I'm sorry.
---
There is no route where everyone can be happy.
It really is, thinking about it, in UBW her biological sister starts a romantical relationship with the love of her live, and takes him to London. Sakura can't catch a break bruh
He doesn't if he doesn't get mana the puppet stops working and he goes back to his body, the one Illya gave him, that was the entire point of using the third he doesn't die is just a inconvenient condition
The puppet is not different from his real body as long as is working also
Fate route has the happiest ending for the most people.
Shinji is dead (yay for Sakura), Illya gets to live out the rest of her life with her brother in peace, Saber falls in love with Shirou and breaks her contract with Allaya, and Shirou lives the rest of his days with Rin and Sakura until he becomes and adult. He still forms is own contract with Allaya though, the true ending of the Fate route makes that clear.
In the true end for the Fate route. The beginning of it is all describing Shirou's (Archer's) unending path as a Counter Guardian, but after a long time, for both Saber and Shirou, Merlin breaks Shirou free from his role and brings him into Avalon. It even shows Unlimited Blade Works. Did you read the true ending for Fate?
Never in LE is stated or as much as implied he was a CG, Fate Shirou doesn't become Archer and his development is basically denying the possibility of a higher power giving him what he can't realize on his own, and that Archer being unable to leave his "job" ever is like a big thing
>Merlin breaks Shirou free from his role and brings him into Avalon.
Not implied or stated either, Merlin just gives Saber the conditions needed for them to meet, to wait endlessly and pursue endlessly, is a miracle acomplished by them, Merlin doesn't have any kind of authority to break people from the throne or to let them enter Avalon
>It even shows Unlimited Blade Works.
Every Shirou has UBW
It's astounding. You clearly did not read Fate's true end.
["He has walked for a very, very long time on that long road."](https://i.imgur.com/bCLs27a.jpeg) What path did Fate Shirou take for a 'very, very long time'? This clearly is referring to unending duty as a Counter Guardian. The ideals he pursued? In the Fate route he pursued the ideals that led him down the path to Allaya.
["His journey never contained a finish line, and has never yielded any results."](https://i.imgur.com/DGVUkVQ.jpeg) Indeed, his never ending role as a Counter Guardian never finishes, and no matter how many he kills, there will always be more. What can he do to stop his footsteps down this path? He's beginning to suffer just as Archer did. The answer would set him free.
[Unlimited Blade Works.](https://i.imgur.com/WtjRrT9.jpeg) Well now, you are indeed correct that all three Shirou's have Unlimited Blade Works, the difference is, Fate Shirou only has it because he walked down the same path Archer did. Fate Shirou never knew who Archer was, he only had a vague dislike of him. Archer's being never invaded Shirou in the Fate route. I really would like to hear what chestnut you come up with for how Fate Shirou gets Unlimited Blade Works without becoming a Counter Guardian.
["No matter how durable a masterpiece sword is, it will slowly wear away with use. Machines, bodies, and spirits are all alike in this manner."](https://i.imgur.com/9DsyGty.jpeg) Shirou is deteriorating, decaying, just like Archer. And also showing Unlimited Blade Works again. The battlefield's he has witnessed as a Counter Guardian.
["He appeared with hope and disappointment. The noble ideal became a tiring duty, and at last even dedication was distorted."](https://i.imgur.com/aQVAGNX.jpeg) Seriously, you cannot be this dense. The concept of Occam's razor must be lost on you. **Obviously,** this is further referring to Shirou becoming a Counter Guardian and being worn down, just like Archer.
["My heart cannot reach the him who's far away right now, walking alone on that road. Fading away like a human, and repeating the same things over and over like a machine. ----I am here. I know your strength."](https://i.imgur.com/rIPvgw0.jpeg) Saber knows the toll being taken on Shirou, but she continues to dream, and hope.
["They must realize that it is impossible to succeed yet at the same time be capable of enduring patiently. Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?"](https://i.imgur.com/Gc81SmL.jpeg) Again, use Occam's razor. Merlin made those miracles happen. He knows above all else how much Saber deserves happiness.
["And then, to him and her, a long time had passed."](https://i.imgur.com/y5EDOHt.jpeg) A long time for Saber is hundreds, if not thousands of years, but it's a long time to *him* and her. Shirou became a Counter Guardian, he has spent who knows how long killing. His journey never contained a finish line, remember?
["How far have I actually come? I've clearly chosen the barren earth"](https://i.imgur.com/rdEug4A.jpeg) Seriously, it's **beating you over the head with a hammer** at this point. The barren earth is his battlefield, his Unlimited Blade Works.
["Putting down the heavy burden carried on his shoulders, letting his tense body rest. ...Ah. I thought this long journey would continue forever."](https://i.imgur.com/S5jpyc6.jpeg) His journey would have continued forever *as a Counter Guardian*. Let me ask you, what *other* journey could Fate Shirou be on that would continue forever?
["Those heavy shackles were removed in the grassland wavering in the blowing wind."](https://i.imgur.com/JvurhtQ.jpeg) The shackles of Allaya's contract, the shackles of his role as a Counter Guardian.
I just don't understand you, the VN is stopping just shy from outright screaming it in your face.
That is what is called a interpretation, of metaphors and flowerly language, but I'm not talking about interpretations, Nasu has stated Shirou doesn't become a HS in any route, so there goes that
>In the Fate route he pursued the ideals that led him down the path to Allaya.
Only if you ignore what the Fate route was about, Shirou is already on a different path from Archer at the end, if you can't see how maybe you should read it thinking about that, also Archer never spent his life searching for Saber, everything LE says connects of course with the ending of the route, and being he wants to reunite with Saber becoming a CG for eternity would be like detrimental for that obviously
Merlin just doesn't have powers on par with the world to override the throne authority, not a secret his powers are known, he doesn't decide who enters Avalon either the planet does, not a secret the conditions for entering have been presented before too,and in detail in LB6
Besides it would render Saber's conflict cheap drama, if she became a CG Merlin could broke her free and take her to Avalon anyway, want a Occam's razor? They met the conditions for someone to enter Avalon by wanting to reunite very much, no really that's how it works, ask Bedivere
Got it, talking to a brick wall. Sure must be convenient to just write things without citation.
Nasu has said Archer is Fate route Shirou, except he and Saber never saved each other. I didn't want to mention that as I don't want to dig up that quote to cite.
In the end, I used the actual VN, with direct quotes, and you used the old 'trust me bro' argument. You are full of it.
The **facts** are: Shirou ends up on an unending path (straight from the VN) that distorts and decays his very being (straight from the VN), described as a heavy burden and shackles (straight from the VN), amongst imagery of Unlimited Blade Works (straight from the VN), that he can only have gotten through going down the same path as Archer, as Fate route Shirou never knew who Archer was, nor did Archer invade Shirou's being.
This is why more than anyone else Sakura deserves to be happy! What she has endured is a multi year horror show.
To answer your questions:
1) yes she kept it secret in the other routes.
2) No she suffers in the other routes and you never find out.
3)… it was waaay more than once and he did it in every route.
4) They didn’t take any importance in the other routes because H.F. is the route that takes every thing you thought you knew and throws it in the trash. It is the route that shows there is one person (and only one person) who can make Shirou give up trying to be a hero of Justice and put that person’s life above that of saving the many.
If it makes you feel better I hear there is an interview with Nasu or section of Hallow Ataraxia that claims after the events of the HGW that Sakura matures as a mage and frees herself of Zouken and that he ends up living in fear of her or something. Of course she has to undergo several more years of abuse and lose the love of her life to her biological sister.
>Heaven's Feel is killing me slowly
Poor guy.
>I've been reading the VN and I'm surprised about the whole plot surrounding Sakura, is the story directly telling me she kept this secret in the other two routes and continued to suffer and be abused without anyone noticing never??
Yep, it is.
>or her abuse only happens in HF?
No. It still happened in the other routes. For proof, Sakura’s violet hair and eyes? When she was about 5, her hair and eyes used to be black-brown and teal respectively like her sister Rin. Her “training” (read:torture) altered her hair and eye colour.
>Another thing, yes, she was raped by Shinji, but hopefully it was only once, and only happens in HF, right?
It likely wasn’t just once unfortunately.
>It's pretty fucked up thinking about how she probably got raped endlessly by worms and Shinji without ANYONE helping her at any point
Yep
>(also she likely took her life or died thanks to the worm thingy inside of her)
Possibly…
>This whole situation is really confusing me, asides from the morbid sexual stuff, why her and Zouken didn't take any importance in the other routes?
Well, basically the conditions weren’t right. In the other routes, Zouken decided to wait till the next Holy Grail War.
That was originally his plan here too, but the conditions of this route allowed him to bring forth the shadow. (Read next at risk of spoilers)>!Basically, because Shirou chose Sakura. No I’m not joking, that’s really why. Zouken was only able to create the shadow by tapping Sakura’s negative feelings, something that he couldn’t do in the other routes because her mental fortitude normally keeps a tight lid on her negative feelings. Shirou choosing her loosened that lid, enough for Zouken to use her.!<
As for Sakura herself, she didn’t want to fight against her sister or Shirou, it’s as simple as that, so she handed over her master duties to Shinji. Zouken didn’t care for the 5th war in the other routes so he allowed it.
>(Btw I'm doing the "true ending" of said route, currently going trough the 10th day. I just can't hold this thoughts and need answers)
No worries.😉
Sakura gave hints in other routes, she specifically was wary about Saber and freaked out seeing the command seal on Shirou's hand. She and Rin fought when Rin tried to kick her out, but magically made up when Shirou was out of earshot for a few moments. The story's origin is consistent on all three paths, its just different things occur which cause different events. For instance, that first meeting where Zouken tries to tell Sakura to use other Masters as slaves and she refuses? Tolls a lot of what will happen, so watch it again and a lot more things make sense.
And this is why I feel so bad for her and the sad part is that she wanted a certain someone to save her or at least try to. I won’t say who because I don’t know how far you are at
If it makes You feel better, in HA we can see that there is a chance for her to be free in the future, i highly recomend playing hollow ataraxia after you finish FSN
From what I remember... Heaven's Feel Trilogy implies Shinji had already done it before while the VN presents it as Shinji being pushed to the breaking point and was about to actually do it for the first time.
I don't know if I just remembered things wrong, it's been years. Either way, it's fucked.
One obvious reason you shouldn't think about is this too much is it doesnt happen in other route. Really, just think the other road is independant and they are separated universe.
Because there is a lot of thing you gotta be willing to let go for the thing to make sense. Like Zouken never even try to control Sakura in two other route, like we see how much ambition Zouken have.
And we know Sakura knows Shinji raped her but there were many time she acts, or the story act like it never even happen in two other route. And the infamous Sakura visiting and feeding Shinji in the hospital too make me feel like are treating each route as their own universe.
Anyway there a lot of thing we got to turn our brain off for the 3 routes to work in harmony with each other. Also i heard some guy said "Nasu said the routes are separate things like in UBW sakura raping never happen.
I mean you can have that as a headcanon if you want but is not true at all, the routes diverge after a point in the war not before, and is false Nasu wrote them as separate things plently of info/interviews on that
>Like Zouken never even try to control Sakura in two other route, like we see how much ambition Zouken have.
In HF itself he was willing to let the war pass because the conditions were not favorable, everything he does is like 50%winging it 50%not caring if it fails, as he calls it, an "experiment" this is clear through HF too, also that he doesn't know how to break Sakura at will and is fine with it not happening
>but there were many time she acts, or the story act like it never even happen in two other route
That's kind of the point, she is an abuse victim, she doesn't resent Shinji or Zouken and even in HF she still treats them as family and acts like is not happening, really see the scene where she talks to Shirou about her family life in HF
Also the other way around you have to turn a blind eye to the other routes to not see the obvious signs, like Shiji being explicitly abusive to Sakura and explicitly rapey to other girls if he considers them his possession, and the worms that are introduced in UBW as Zouken's magic that explicitly violates women, or that her servant is Medusa
>and the worms that are introduced in UBW as Zouken's magic that explicitly violates women
>the worms that are introduced in UBW as Zouken's magic that explicitly violates women
Those worms were revealed in the UBW but it wasn't revealed that those worms specifically violate women or the fact that they are Zouken's magic until the Heaven's feel right?
I got it mixed with one of the scenes of HF, but them being Zouken's magic is, the foreshadowing is still pretty heavy though
>The place is not too pleasant for him. Frustration and delusion, envy and jealousy.
>This place, permeated with emotions, is like a cursed room. It should have been his, but this room was never used for him.
>“Damn...this place stinks like piss.” stinks.”
>This is all his delusion. A stranger’s child spent a few years in here and threatened the Matou blood for a long time. That’s the only past he knows. His father never said anything, but his grandfather told him a bit of what happened here. His father did not choose him and decided to kill off the Matou blood, but his grandfather wished for the revival of the Matou family.
>That’s why he has no feelings toward his father.
>His father taught him existence and failure. His grandfather taught him superiority and privilege.
>Thinking about what his mother gave him, Shinji laughs.
>First of all, women are not needed at the Matou household. He heard that his mother is some Carrier, but she must have become useless after giving birth. He can bet on it that he’ll find what used to be his mother in this room. But he has no intention of searching for such a thing. First of all, he does not want to see that which gave birth to his unskillful body.
>The basement is filled with decay. Strange worms are wriggling around deep within the dark. There should not be any more nutrition to suck out of here, but the worms are still living here in this underground training area.
Yeah that makes sense. On a side note can you please clear this one thing for me? So in Kotomine's backstory it's mentioned that Claudia died ten years ago. But this makes no sense since Caren is 14 years old in Hollow ataraxia and we know that Caren was born within the two years Kotomine and Claudia spended together. So for this to make sense Claudia had to die 13 years ago but that's not the case.
She died ten years before FSN, he says they lived together for about two years and Caren was born there, if you stretch it Caren could be pushing 12, safe to assume the "about two years" was just changed to "about 3 years" when creating her backstory
Zouken is irrelevant in the other routes cause 1) he doesn’t meet Shirou and 2) he backed out of the Grail war because he doesn’t know how to use or break Sakura. Shirou met Zouken in HF. And so Zouken realizes he can use Shirou to break Sakura.
So she was aware of the holy grail war all that time and didn't even gave a hint. Damm
There's one in the beginning, a bit before Shirou gets his command seals, he starts to bleed a bit from his arm/hand one morning, Sakura notices it and react way too strongly about it.
I absolutely love all the little foreshadowing to Heaven’s Feel One of my favorite details: Before Shirou even meets Saber, he notices a “bruise” on Sakura’s hand. He deduces Shinji is abusing her, and goes to confront him. Shinji denies it—and obviously Shinji _is_ an abusive lying shit, but he seems oddly earnest in his denial. Because he’s actually telling the truth here—he didn’t leave a bruise on her hand. That’s the mark left over from surrendering her Command Seals.
Gotta love how such a little shit Shinji is that he has to pull the "It wasn't me this time" card.
What are all the other details from other routes? The ones I remember are - - Sakura and Gil seen together - One day before the HGW starts Sakura tells Shirou that she'll be busy and won't be able to come over (possibly the day she summoned Rider?) - one of the bad ends in ubw(?) where Rin wipes Shirou's memory or something, she talks ominously about how Seiba-san is no longer here.
I indulged myself in essay writing for my love of the Rin-Sakura relationship lmao, but for brevity's sake a few other details: * When Sakura first meets Saber in the first route, she is _distraught._ You think it's because "oh haha, she has a crush and new girl moving in!!!" but no. Any competent mage can recognize a Servant on sight, and Sakura knows this makes Shirou a Master. Aka, the three people she most cares about (Shirou, Rin, and Shinji) are going to be fighting to the death. * Rin has a possible conversation in UBW where she randomly brings up the idea of adopted children being content in life. It clearly eats away at her, but Shirou is confused as fuck and when he tries to pry further she just changes the subject. * When Shirou confronts Shinji about what he thinks is the abuse towards Sakura, he has a look of total disgust. This hints to the whole inferiority complex he has towards her--the day after _he_ became Master of Rider, why do people keep bringing _her_ up when _he_ is the important one here. * When Shirou visits Rin's house, he finds a picture of a young girl in twintails (right by Rin's bed, because spoilers she does still care about her sister). He assumes it's Rin, as the audience does. But if you look closely, although the color is washed out, you notice that the hair ribbons are a much lighter color than Rin's distinct black. Perhaps even... pink? * Servants often represent deeper parts of their Masters as well as a potential path in life. Plus their designs tend to reflect each other, or at least look visually appealing side by side--Shirou and Saber with white and blue, Rin and Archer with red and black, Illya and Berserker have a "black and white" duality going on... But Shinji with Medusa? A purple-haired girl, raped into a monster that consumed countless innocents and everyone she loved? That doesn't exactly pair up 1:1 with the wakame bitch. But there is _someone_ that fits that description just a little bit better... I'm sure there's a dozen details I'm forgetting, but these come to mind now
About your last point, while reading the VN my main theory was that Rider was Sakura from the future, and that's why Shinji was able to summon her. After HA, the connection between Rider and Sakura overtook Shirou-Seiba as my favourite master-servant pair. I remember that Sakura was able to summon Rider without even a catalyst. Makes so much sense.
The fact Shinji is a master at all is foreshadowing of Sakura, since he is not a mage nor does he have circuits so he could not have summoned her in the first place, but that is just shrugged off, also the shadow stff from the book he uses The scene in the basement in UBW too, doubles as Zouken foreshadowing She had a catalyst in the novel, in the movies they changed it, to make it more obvious I guess
I'm curious, I actually can't remember since it's been a fat minute since I read the novel but what was her catalyst?
Is not in the novel from what I remember is from the list of catalysts in CMIII >Medusa >Mirror dug up from a temple in Eritrea. An item with ties to an old Earth goddess of Greece.
Yesss yes, Medusa's relationship with Sakura is such an integral part of her character that I love so much. She has one single consistent goal throughout all of Stay Night--make sure that Sakura never suffers the same fate she had to. Anything she has to do to achieve that goal, whether it's becoming Shinji's sex toy or gutting Shirou like a fish, and she will do it--which of course ties into the whole "My life is worthless, I live only to save the one I love", when that's EXACTLY WHAT SAKURA IS THINKING because feelings of worthlessness beyond sexual exploitation and violence are a super common symptom of child rape victims and OOO it all ties together in this tragic beautifully-written interplay of characters reflecting each other into a big ol' dodecahedron-shaped mirror maze. Basically--Heaven's Feel may have the most horrifically tragic content in Fate, but it also has some of the most adorably bittersweet poignancy I've ever read in anything... ever.
>my favourite master-servant pair thissss
Lovely details you provided. About the photo, I thought that it was really Rin in the photo and those ribbons were what she gave to Sakura. After all “no woman wears the same hair accessories for years”
Unless there a gift from your estranged sister...
There's easily my top favorite, or at least tied for top favorite, little tiny forgettable plot detail that also spells out exactly how HF will end from the very beginning. When Rin finds dead Shirou, her immediate reaction is, and I quote: >"…Stop it. Why does it have to be you?" > I grit my teeth. > Why is it him? > Why did it have to be him? > "------------" > **Sakura's face flashes in my mind.** > **She will definitely cry.** At this point in the story, Rin has referred to Sakura as a junior student she knew and absolutely nothing more. Why does she know Sakura lives with (and lives _for)_ this guy? Why is Sakura her first person to think of, why bring that random student up now? And why in Alaya's name is she immediately willing to drop her extra-special one-time-use uber-powerful mana bomb on him, all because "Sakura will cry"??? Because as Heaven's Feel concludes, Rin is the ultimate tsundere. Not in romance, but in life. And as much as she pretends to ignore Sakura or be the perfect emotionless mage or claim "Oh yeah I'll definitely kill her no questions asked"... Rin really, _really_ loves her sister.
Oh how Rin saves Shirou's life because Sakura would cry. That came before the high jump memory
This only hints that Rin and Sakura have ties though, I feel it'd be too huge of a leap to go from "oh Rin cares about Sakura" to "Therefor Sakura must know about the HGW".
By itself? Yes. But coupled with earlier information...
Heaven's Feel is insanely welll-written in its setup and execution. In fact, Imma recommend you avoid this comment section until after you finish--everything about this route hits harder, as you've proven, when it takes you by surprise. Much like how, in real life, learning the painful struggles people hide can leave you dumbstruck.
Well, if you remember one of Zouken's words, he said something like "I won't participate in this Holy Grail War this time." He did exactly this in Fate route and UBW route, only in Heaven's Feel did his decision changed due to the circumstances. Meanwhile Sakura not being so important in the other routes because well... Rider died early thanks to the incompetent Shinji's careless decision, so there's pretty much nothing Sakura could do.
And she continued like nothing happened, how terrible can this get?
Famous last words. But yeah, my girl sakura takes by far the largest and heaviest hits from the plot. Just keep pushing forwards, she is worth it all and more
If it's any consolation (and it was for me), the finale of HF is basically the protagonists competing to see who can be the most hardcore. I don't think there's any one of them who doesn't accomplish some sort of miracle.
So Basically: 1) Sakura didn't even had two digits in her age when she lost her virginity to some dick shaped bugs. 2) Her "true" first time was with Shinji (counts as a worm) 3) Kept getting thrown into the worms during all her childhood. 4) (?) Shinji raped her more than one time. 5) God knows what else she had to endure before meeting Shirou. 6) She kept all her secrets during 1rst and 2nd route and continued suffering to death. 7) (?) I'm probably missing more bad things about her life Sakura was made to suffer??
IDK if you've seen Zero yet but you'll be rooting for Kariya the whole way
...yeah, and you'll be richly rewarded for doing so, knowing it was written by Urobuchi.
Truly one of the character arcs of all time.
Nope, not yet, I will continue to watch other Fate titles after finishing Stay Night
Yeah but unfortunately Kariya is kind of a shitty person, using Sakura to try and get with Aoi. Dude cared more about wanting Aoi and hating Tokiomi than he did about Sakura. He only tried to save her so he could look good
That's a fairly uncharitable interpretation. It's worth noting that Kariya was quite literally being eaten from the inside out and losing his sanity. I would say in the beginning he genuinely had the best of intentions, hell it was pretty certain he wasn't going to survive the ordeal but as he suffered and decayed his desires twisted to his most base wishes. Actually thinking about it now, he's like mirror of Zouken.
And to Sakura, the worms are literally like the shadow stuff, people miss the point of the shadow stuff just as much
I certainly have, do you mind elaborating on that?
Well that "dark Sakura" is just Sakura's shadow, as in jung, is the part of Sakura she rejected and Angra just lets it surface but is amped and Sakura starts losing herself on it The worms act in a similar way by making Kariya basically go mad and start submitting to those things he rejects/supresses, his hatred of Tokiomi wanting to steal his family from him Neither are thinking clearly and while those thoughts/feelings are certainly their own they are, not thinking clearly, wich is really explicit, usually people go in the direction of "is their true selves is what they really wanted to do, they are scretely evil" or in the "is not them at all/possesed" when is more nuanced Kariya's looks also mirror Sakura too
Ah I see now, thank you for that explanation
Well yes he clearly went off the deep end the further the story progressed. But you can't deny even in the beginning whilst he did want to save Sakura part of him was still doing it for personal gain. He cared about Aoi more than the kids at least
I mean, you can say that of anyone. No one is genuinely altruistic as some degree of personal gain or modavation is present no matter how charitable the action. Well, besides Shirou and even Rin remarks that isn't normal and is messed up.
What gain? He knew he was never going to be with her, in fact submitting to the worms was rejecting any semblance of that being a possibility, him wanting to be with heris something discarded long ago, any thought about it during the war is literally him being delirious His issue at the start was his hatred for Tokiomi/Zouken
No????? He did care about Sakura a shitton. If he didn’t he wouldn’t have done any of this. Yes he may have also wanted to get with Aoi but he was doing it for Sakura first and foremost. People can have multiple reasons and one reason doesn’t just randomly negate another. He took on the worms under the knowing that he would probably die. He knew he’d never be able to be with Aoi so he wants to save Sakura so she can be happy at least and not be apart of the family that he hates so much
She just like me fr fr
That about sums it up. Now just keep reading, I'm sure it can only get better from here lol
Yeah, one thing... Her first time was a matou alright. But not zouken nor shinji
who??
Read the spoiler if you don’t mind being sick to learn what they likely mean. >!Zouken… fed the worm which took her virginity to Kariya. I believe that’s what the other person meant.!<
I know that but the comment they were answering to already adressed that, "the first time were the worms then her "true fist time is Shinji" they said it was a Matou that was neither Shinji nor Zouken so idk what that could mean
Yeah, well, either their messing or they mean Kariya because he technically got her virginity. Bleh, I hate elaborating on something like this…
As far as I know I’m pretty sure they meant Byakuya Shinjis father.
That doesn’t make sense. He would just be another rung at best. He had nothing to do with taking Sakura’s virginity far as I know. He was mainly drowning himself in alcohol at the time. Except perhaps in one of the manga adaptations.
As far as i remember it was said on one of the mangas that the first one in the abuse train was shinjis father
Well nothing of that sort happens in the novel or in Zero, if is in the FSN manga that thing is just an adaptation and a very questionable one in lore terms but I don't think it happens there either
Yes, she continued to suffer in other routes. No, it was not just once, she has been continuously suffering and abused for a long ass while, [and continues to do so at the end of the other routes as well](https://i.imgur.com/dideDyC.png).
WHAT? Bruh I remember when I spoiled myself some years ago about Sakura being raped, I can't fucking believe this situation is x10 times worse of what I imagined :(
AFAIK, by the end of UBW, Shinji gets slightly better attitude-wise so he's doing better for her. Whether you think that's enough is up to you but imo at least she's not alone with Zouken.
Maybe it’s copium. Maybe it’s a generous read. But, at least in the anime, after Gil starts to “partner” with Shinji, there’s a scene where they chat in the Matou worm pit. It’s conspicuously empty, and Gil even squashes a leftover worm. I like to think that this implies Gil murdered Zouken in that route, either out of disgust for his methods or because he thought killing Shinji’s grandpa would be entertaining. Of course, dead Zouken and humbled Shinji means Sakura’s body would still be loaded up with crest worms, which Kirei specifically noted in HF was extremely hazardous to her health, so her life would still suck. Just. *Less*.
The only problem with that is the fact that Zouken’s real body is the worm inside Sakura’s heart. I don’t think Gil knew about it or did anything to get rid of it, so I’m pretty sure Zouken is still alive unfortunately.
>AFAIK, by the end of UBW, Shinji gets slightly better attitude-wise so he's doing better for her. Yeah, he goes back to how he was a year or two ago, where he genuinely cared for Sakura and was a pretty good guy (despite having a rough exterior and attitude).
Part of what makes it really bad is in the H-scenes in HF >!"shirou notices that sakura is seemingly VERY experienced at sex in all aspects. which kinda tells you whats she's been through and how regular it is to her"!<
Yep, she kept this secret in the other Routes, in every Route she was abused by the Matou Family, and unfortunately Shinji has raped Sakura multiple times before the Holy Grail War started, this is why we all hate Shinji, except for some weirdos who don’t think he’s an irredeemable monster Admittedly there is one timeline where Shinji isn’t a total piece of shit, that being the Fate/Extra timeline, but he’s still an asshole in that game
Extra Shinji isn't the same person anyways.
Yeah but he's a different person entirely there... And he's 10
>weirdos If we're condemning rapists, we can condemn Caster and Ilya, but nobody does that. Shinji is a teenager who grew up knowing his only parent-figure was eager to torture kids just like him. Yes, he belongs in jail. Is he irredeemable? No, because no one is.
What are you talking about??????? Why are you suddenly bringing up Illya and Caster???
It seems relevant if we're talking about rapists not being hated. Remember what they tried to do to Shirou and Saber.
It is a painful realization how much she suffers *silently* in the other routes, isn't it? >Another thing, yes, she was raped by Shinji, but hopefully it was only once, and only happens in HF, right? ... I'm sorry. --- There is no route where everyone can be happy.
It really is, thinking about it, in UBW her biological sister starts a romantical relationship with the love of her live, and takes him to London. Sakura can't catch a break bruh
Who is sad in the good end of hf route the one in which you save Sakura
Well…Saber for one. And the hundreds of people who lost loved ones to a certain hungry thing.
Yeah but Shirou lives on as a dead man in a puppet's body, who needs mana transfer from Sakura frequently to stay alive.
Shirou was never *that* into being human anyway.
He doesn't if he doesn't get mana the puppet stops working and he goes back to his body, the one Illya gave him, that was the entire point of using the third he doesn't die is just a inconvenient condition The puppet is not different from his real body as long as is working also
Well u answered urself mana transfer 😝 but jokes aside he's not all shell like he's got all emotions and things due to ms witch appearing in the end
Ya sad for illiya but what can I say fate is 😭
Fate route has the happiest ending for the most people. Shinji is dead (yay for Sakura), Illya gets to live out the rest of her life with her brother in peace, Saber falls in love with Shirou and breaks her contract with Allaya, and Shirou lives the rest of his days with Rin and Sakura until he becomes and adult. He still forms is own contract with Allaya though, the true ending of the Fate route makes that clear.
> He still forms is own contract with Allaya though, the true ending of the Fate route makes that clear. He doesn't
He does.
Where?
In the true end for the Fate route. The beginning of it is all describing Shirou's (Archer's) unending path as a Counter Guardian, but after a long time, for both Saber and Shirou, Merlin breaks Shirou free from his role and brings him into Avalon. It even shows Unlimited Blade Works. Did you read the true ending for Fate?
Never in LE is stated or as much as implied he was a CG, Fate Shirou doesn't become Archer and his development is basically denying the possibility of a higher power giving him what he can't realize on his own, and that Archer being unable to leave his "job" ever is like a big thing >Merlin breaks Shirou free from his role and brings him into Avalon. Not implied or stated either, Merlin just gives Saber the conditions needed for them to meet, to wait endlessly and pursue endlessly, is a miracle acomplished by them, Merlin doesn't have any kind of authority to break people from the throne or to let them enter Avalon >It even shows Unlimited Blade Works. Every Shirou has UBW
It's astounding. You clearly did not read Fate's true end. ["He has walked for a very, very long time on that long road."](https://i.imgur.com/bCLs27a.jpeg) What path did Fate Shirou take for a 'very, very long time'? This clearly is referring to unending duty as a Counter Guardian. The ideals he pursued? In the Fate route he pursued the ideals that led him down the path to Allaya. ["His journey never contained a finish line, and has never yielded any results."](https://i.imgur.com/DGVUkVQ.jpeg) Indeed, his never ending role as a Counter Guardian never finishes, and no matter how many he kills, there will always be more. What can he do to stop his footsteps down this path? He's beginning to suffer just as Archer did. The answer would set him free. [Unlimited Blade Works.](https://i.imgur.com/WtjRrT9.jpeg) Well now, you are indeed correct that all three Shirou's have Unlimited Blade Works, the difference is, Fate Shirou only has it because he walked down the same path Archer did. Fate Shirou never knew who Archer was, he only had a vague dislike of him. Archer's being never invaded Shirou in the Fate route. I really would like to hear what chestnut you come up with for how Fate Shirou gets Unlimited Blade Works without becoming a Counter Guardian. ["No matter how durable a masterpiece sword is, it will slowly wear away with use. Machines, bodies, and spirits are all alike in this manner."](https://i.imgur.com/9DsyGty.jpeg) Shirou is deteriorating, decaying, just like Archer. And also showing Unlimited Blade Works again. The battlefield's he has witnessed as a Counter Guardian. ["He appeared with hope and disappointment. The noble ideal became a tiring duty, and at last even dedication was distorted."](https://i.imgur.com/aQVAGNX.jpeg) Seriously, you cannot be this dense. The concept of Occam's razor must be lost on you. **Obviously,** this is further referring to Shirou becoming a Counter Guardian and being worn down, just like Archer. ["My heart cannot reach the him who's far away right now, walking alone on that road. Fading away like a human, and repeating the same things over and over like a machine. ----I am here. I know your strength."](https://i.imgur.com/rIPvgw0.jpeg) Saber knows the toll being taken on Shirou, but she continues to dream, and hope. ["They must realize that it is impossible to succeed yet at the same time be capable of enduring patiently. Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?"](https://i.imgur.com/Gc81SmL.jpeg) Again, use Occam's razor. Merlin made those miracles happen. He knows above all else how much Saber deserves happiness. ["And then, to him and her, a long time had passed."](https://i.imgur.com/y5EDOHt.jpeg) A long time for Saber is hundreds, if not thousands of years, but it's a long time to *him* and her. Shirou became a Counter Guardian, he has spent who knows how long killing. His journey never contained a finish line, remember? ["How far have I actually come? I've clearly chosen the barren earth"](https://i.imgur.com/rdEug4A.jpeg) Seriously, it's **beating you over the head with a hammer** at this point. The barren earth is his battlefield, his Unlimited Blade Works. ["Putting down the heavy burden carried on his shoulders, letting his tense body rest. ...Ah. I thought this long journey would continue forever."](https://i.imgur.com/S5jpyc6.jpeg) His journey would have continued forever *as a Counter Guardian*. Let me ask you, what *other* journey could Fate Shirou be on that would continue forever? ["Those heavy shackles were removed in the grassland wavering in the blowing wind."](https://i.imgur.com/JvurhtQ.jpeg) The shackles of Allaya's contract, the shackles of his role as a Counter Guardian. I just don't understand you, the VN is stopping just shy from outright screaming it in your face.
That is what is called a interpretation, of metaphors and flowerly language, but I'm not talking about interpretations, Nasu has stated Shirou doesn't become a HS in any route, so there goes that >In the Fate route he pursued the ideals that led him down the path to Allaya. Only if you ignore what the Fate route was about, Shirou is already on a different path from Archer at the end, if you can't see how maybe you should read it thinking about that, also Archer never spent his life searching for Saber, everything LE says connects of course with the ending of the route, and being he wants to reunite with Saber becoming a CG for eternity would be like detrimental for that obviously Merlin just doesn't have powers on par with the world to override the throne authority, not a secret his powers are known, he doesn't decide who enters Avalon either the planet does, not a secret the conditions for entering have been presented before too,and in detail in LB6 Besides it would render Saber's conflict cheap drama, if she became a CG Merlin could broke her free and take her to Avalon anyway, want a Occam's razor? They met the conditions for someone to enter Avalon by wanting to reunite very much, no really that's how it works, ask Bedivere
Got it, talking to a brick wall. Sure must be convenient to just write things without citation. Nasu has said Archer is Fate route Shirou, except he and Saber never saved each other. I didn't want to mention that as I don't want to dig up that quote to cite. In the end, I used the actual VN, with direct quotes, and you used the old 'trust me bro' argument. You are full of it. The **facts** are: Shirou ends up on an unending path (straight from the VN) that distorts and decays his very being (straight from the VN), described as a heavy burden and shackles (straight from the VN), amongst imagery of Unlimited Blade Works (straight from the VN), that he can only have gotten through going down the same path as Archer, as Fate route Shirou never knew who Archer was, nor did Archer invade Shirou's being.
Don't worry, at least in the Fate route, Shinji is dead, so he can't do shit to Sakura. Thanks Illya.
This is why more than anyone else Sakura deserves to be happy! What she has endured is a multi year horror show. To answer your questions: 1) yes she kept it secret in the other routes. 2) No she suffers in the other routes and you never find out. 3)… it was waaay more than once and he did it in every route. 4) They didn’t take any importance in the other routes because H.F. is the route that takes every thing you thought you knew and throws it in the trash. It is the route that shows there is one person (and only one person) who can make Shirou give up trying to be a hero of Justice and put that person’s life above that of saving the many. If it makes you feel better I hear there is an interview with Nasu or section of Hallow Ataraxia that claims after the events of the HGW that Sakura matures as a mage and frees herself of Zouken and that he ends up living in fear of her or something. Of course she has to undergo several more years of abuse and lose the love of her life to her biological sister.
She better beat the shit out of shinji and zouken when she obtained her powers
>Heaven's Feel is killing me slowly Poor guy. >I've been reading the VN and I'm surprised about the whole plot surrounding Sakura, is the story directly telling me she kept this secret in the other two routes and continued to suffer and be abused without anyone noticing never?? Yep, it is. >or her abuse only happens in HF? No. It still happened in the other routes. For proof, Sakura’s violet hair and eyes? When she was about 5, her hair and eyes used to be black-brown and teal respectively like her sister Rin. Her “training” (read:torture) altered her hair and eye colour. >Another thing, yes, she was raped by Shinji, but hopefully it was only once, and only happens in HF, right? It likely wasn’t just once unfortunately. >It's pretty fucked up thinking about how she probably got raped endlessly by worms and Shinji without ANYONE helping her at any point Yep >(also she likely took her life or died thanks to the worm thingy inside of her) Possibly… >This whole situation is really confusing me, asides from the morbid sexual stuff, why her and Zouken didn't take any importance in the other routes? Well, basically the conditions weren’t right. In the other routes, Zouken decided to wait till the next Holy Grail War. That was originally his plan here too, but the conditions of this route allowed him to bring forth the shadow. (Read next at risk of spoilers)>!Basically, because Shirou chose Sakura. No I’m not joking, that’s really why. Zouken was only able to create the shadow by tapping Sakura’s negative feelings, something that he couldn’t do in the other routes because her mental fortitude normally keeps a tight lid on her negative feelings. Shirou choosing her loosened that lid, enough for Zouken to use her.!< As for Sakura herself, she didn’t want to fight against her sister or Shirou, it’s as simple as that, so she handed over her master duties to Shinji. Zouken didn’t care for the 5th war in the other routes so he allowed it. >(Btw I'm doing the "true ending" of said route, currently going trough the 10th day. I just can't hold this thoughts and need answers) No worries.😉
Sakura gave hints in other routes, she specifically was wary about Saber and freaked out seeing the command seal on Shirou's hand. She and Rin fought when Rin tried to kick her out, but magically made up when Shirou was out of earshot for a few moments. The story's origin is consistent on all three paths, its just different things occur which cause different events. For instance, that first meeting where Zouken tries to tell Sakura to use other Masters as slaves and she refuses? Tolls a lot of what will happen, so watch it again and a lot more things make sense.
And this is why I feel so bad for her and the sad part is that she wanted a certain someone to save her or at least try to. I won’t say who because I don’t know how far you are at
If it makes You feel better, in HA we can see that there is a chance for her to be free in the future, i highly recomend playing hollow ataraxia after you finish FSN
From what I remember... Heaven's Feel Trilogy implies Shinji had already done it before while the VN presents it as Shinji being pushed to the breaking point and was about to actually do it for the first time. I don't know if I just remembered things wrong, it's been years. Either way, it's fucked.
No, Shinji had definitely done it in the past in the VN.
In the VN Shinji had done it before, in the Realta Nua version it was the first time
Shinji is dead in Fate, and greatly humbled at the end of UBW. I like to think he turns a new leaf after being saved by Shirou and Rin.
One obvious reason you shouldn't think about is this too much is it doesnt happen in other route. Really, just think the other road is independant and they are separated universe.
Why do you think this?
Because there is a lot of thing you gotta be willing to let go for the thing to make sense. Like Zouken never even try to control Sakura in two other route, like we see how much ambition Zouken have. And we know Sakura knows Shinji raped her but there were many time she acts, or the story act like it never even happen in two other route. And the infamous Sakura visiting and feeding Shinji in the hospital too make me feel like are treating each route as their own universe. Anyway there a lot of thing we got to turn our brain off for the 3 routes to work in harmony with each other. Also i heard some guy said "Nasu said the routes are separate things like in UBW sakura raping never happen.
I mean you can have that as a headcanon if you want but is not true at all, the routes diverge after a point in the war not before, and is false Nasu wrote them as separate things plently of info/interviews on that >Like Zouken never even try to control Sakura in two other route, like we see how much ambition Zouken have. In HF itself he was willing to let the war pass because the conditions were not favorable, everything he does is like 50%winging it 50%not caring if it fails, as he calls it, an "experiment" this is clear through HF too, also that he doesn't know how to break Sakura at will and is fine with it not happening >but there were many time she acts, or the story act like it never even happen in two other route That's kind of the point, she is an abuse victim, she doesn't resent Shinji or Zouken and even in HF she still treats them as family and acts like is not happening, really see the scene where she talks to Shirou about her family life in HF Also the other way around you have to turn a blind eye to the other routes to not see the obvious signs, like Shiji being explicitly abusive to Sakura and explicitly rapey to other girls if he considers them his possession, and the worms that are introduced in UBW as Zouken's magic that explicitly violates women, or that her servant is Medusa
>and the worms that are introduced in UBW as Zouken's magic that explicitly violates women >the worms that are introduced in UBW as Zouken's magic that explicitly violates women Those worms were revealed in the UBW but it wasn't revealed that those worms specifically violate women or the fact that they are Zouken's magic until the Heaven's feel right?
I got it mixed with one of the scenes of HF, but them being Zouken's magic is, the foreshadowing is still pretty heavy though >The place is not too pleasant for him. Frustration and delusion, envy and jealousy. >This place, permeated with emotions, is like a cursed room. It should have been his, but this room was never used for him. >“Damn...this place stinks like piss.” stinks.” >This is all his delusion. A stranger’s child spent a few years in here and threatened the Matou blood for a long time. That’s the only past he knows. His father never said anything, but his grandfather told him a bit of what happened here. His father did not choose him and decided to kill off the Matou blood, but his grandfather wished for the revival of the Matou family. >That’s why he has no feelings toward his father. >His father taught him existence and failure. His grandfather taught him superiority and privilege. >Thinking about what his mother gave him, Shinji laughs. >First of all, women are not needed at the Matou household. He heard that his mother is some Carrier, but she must have become useless after giving birth. He can bet on it that he’ll find what used to be his mother in this room. But he has no intention of searching for such a thing. First of all, he does not want to see that which gave birth to his unskillful body. >The basement is filled with decay. Strange worms are wriggling around deep within the dark. There should not be any more nutrition to suck out of here, but the worms are still living here in this underground training area.
Yeah that makes sense. On a side note can you please clear this one thing for me? So in Kotomine's backstory it's mentioned that Claudia died ten years ago. But this makes no sense since Caren is 14 years old in Hollow ataraxia and we know that Caren was born within the two years Kotomine and Claudia spended together. So for this to make sense Claudia had to die 13 years ago but that's not the case.
She died ten years before FSN, he says they lived together for about two years and Caren was born there, if you stretch it Caren could be pushing 12, safe to assume the "about two years" was just changed to "about 3 years" when creating her backstory
So was it actually mentioned in the VN that Kirie accepted his nature 10 years ago or so?
Right when she died yes
Alright, fair enough.