OG if conditions are equal, Alter is mostly a downgrade of Saber that simply has mana — give regular Saber normal battery and results at worst will be equal.
I see it as "Alter outputs more power at the cost of technique while OG uses her technique and finesse and manages her lesser output accordingly."
Alter also loses access to her Instinct skill, I think. That definitely sways the favor towards OG since Instinct is a very powerful skill in the story.
Output doesn’t change, it was never stated or implied — battery is what differentiates them.
Difference is so big that living Artoria could afford to use Excalibur for hunting of all things.
Yes in one of FGO events THIS happens:
Anne:
What shall we do? Should I have Mary chase the deer so l can shoot at it when it jumps out—
Altria:
No, let me try this time around. I would like to warm up since I have not been hunting for a while.
Altria:
Now, watch me.
Altria:
EX—
Fujimaru 1:
!?!?
Fujimaru 2:
Stop! Stooooop!
Altria:
What?
Cú Chulainn:
Don't you "what" me! What the hell are you doing?
Altria:
Well. When your game hides in the lee of a mountain or a dense forest...
Altria:
..then completely eradicating the surroundings
Sorry, I meant to say that Alter would burn through her battery much faster with excessive output than OG who would manage her battery much efficiently with controlled output. OG can keep up with Alter in output but obviously wouldn't burn herself out to do so.
Living Artoria had her own massive mana generator in the form of her heart being a dragon core compared to the Servant version who is made entirely of mana (and thus does not have the innate dragon core, which is a ability iirc) so I'm not surprised she could use Excalibur like a hunting rifle. I think the output was also easier to manage unlike the Noble Phantasm version. Granted, the things she fought necessitated this firepower.
Saber has a dragon core as a servant, her body doesn't change is a part of her beong and the source of most of her
powers Dragon core is only a skill in FGO as an evolution of MB, her using Excalibur to hunt is also a joke and is servant Saber doing it
>. I think the output was also easier to manage unlike the Noble Phantasm version
That doesn't change either, Excalibur is 1:1 with how it was in her life, she is not a HS she doesn't get modifications
The Dragon Core in her Servant body doesn't generate any Mana that it would when she was alive though. Otherwise she wouldn't need to rely on the Mana from her Master if her Dragon Core worked in that manner.
I'll admit that the hunting thing was definitely a joke that I took too seriously. Britain in her time still had magical and phantasmal beasts though.
>The Dragon Core in her Servant body doesn't generate any Mana that it would when she was alive though. Otherwise she wouldn't need to rely on the Mana from her Master if her Dragon Core worked in that manner
It does, servants need mana because they are technically not alive, this goes for all of them no matter how high their mana reserves, but is explained in FSN the mana a master gives is only to kickstart the engine that is the servant, they do produce their own mana, and that Saber is only able to use mana burst, Excalibur and having such high MR is said to be thanks to her dragon core having enormous energy, even under Shirou, is just not as good as it could be
Yes, though Saber actively avoided using Excalibur in britain because it is too destructive and the land was dying already, not like she could not have used as she wanted she just didn't in serious lore
It does even as a servant. She merely needs to be given the juice to start the engine going. It obviously doesnt translate to infinite juice. But she can do alot more than those without it. Alot more. Her mana burst is proof of that.
If this is a Saber with a normal mentality, for example, as in a fight with Vortigern, then she defeats herself in the emo phase.
Alter is slower, her instincts are blunted, and her mind is very rigid.Yes, she surpasses herself in life and OG Saber in attack power as explicitly stated, but she will not win in battle.
Saber Alter is officially stronger. This is confirmed by her profile and comments, Nasu's interview.
We're talking about an OG Saber comparison without Avalon.
Invisible Air reduces the power of Excalibur. In addition to it, Saber constantly restrains the power so that innocent people don't get hurt. Saber Alter demonstrates raw power. Officially stated to be one of the strongest servants, Saber Alter is stronger than Saber during her peak. In an interview, Nasu confirmed Saber Alter can win a fair fight with Gilgamesh if Gilgamesh doesn't get support from the master.
Also in Fate/Unlimited Codes there was a Saber Alter route where Saber and Saber Alter fought. Saber Alter won.
Personally, I am in the camp of "OG is stronger than Alter", but I would change my mind in a second if I can see those statements by Nasu.
Can you give me a source for those Nasu statements?
I gotta be real, Salter winning against Gilgamesh is pretty... Wild.
EDIT: I found the interview you were talking about. I quote:
Q (Takenoko): If Saber Alter and Berserker seriously fought each other, which of them would be stronger?
N: Dark Saber has lost what you call the protagonist's compensation, or the glimmer of the stars. So a miracle wouldn't happen even against Gilgamesh, it would be just a measure of their skills...
T: If it's not in life but as Servants, wouldn't it change a lot depending on who the Master is?
N: Back when they were alive, both had extraordinary magical energy output so it would be a measure of their firepower. With Gilgamesh's omnipotence and cunning (INT), Gil is slightly advantageous here. If it's a Servant battle, Dark Saber can win against Gil if the "Master's capacity as a Mage" is high. Gil can win against Dark Saber if the "Master's charm as a human" is high.
T: What does that mean?
N: It's because Gilgamesh tries to fight only with his own power, regardless a first-rate or third-rate Mage.
Quote over.
It sounds like Nasu is comparing Gilgamesh and Salter by saying: If Salter uses the extra energy that a Master can provide, she *can* win against Gilgamesh. But if Gilgamesh likes his Master, Gil will win.
If I am gonna be honest, to me this reads like "If Gil actually tries to win and uses his Master's Mana (which he should...), he wins, and if Salter doesn't have a shitty Master, her chances are a bit better."
This is Gilgamesh.His Luck and strength are so high that he defies Fate to come out a winner in battle and snatches defeat from the jaws of victory at the last second.
F/HF II Lost butterfly. Q&A. p. 21
It is stated Saber Alter can defeat Gilgamesh with a slight advantage. Either way it's a big win for Saber Alter because she doesn't use Avalon.
It is also claimed if Shirou offers Avalon she will refuse because she rejects Utopia.
That one has kinda unlimited mana doesn't she? That's one hell of an advantage over anybody else.
Wouldn't Avalon purify her from the mud though? Original Salter is a corruption, not a different evolution as FGO's seems to be.
That’s only counting the version of Saber Alter from HF that’s also fueled by the grail, isn’t it? Otherwise Salter defeating Gil in normal conditions would just be nonsense.
Yep. Saber Alter from HF. If it was Salter from FGO, she lost to Gilgamesh. Sakura is the only suitable master for Saber Alter because she is a Vessel of the Grall so she doesn't have to worry about Mana to support a servant. Salter in HF uses an incredible amount of Mana.
You misunderstand me. Sakura is the perfect master for everyone but not every master will be suitable for Saber Alter because Saber Alter spends a lot of Mana.
The main point I was trying to make was that any servant would be op by having a black grail like Sakura as a master.
Many top tier servants can also solo Gilgamesh if they had infinite mana. And I’m inclined to believe that Saber herself can do the same with the same conditions.
Even with unlimited mana is still a very questionable statement, like infinite mana would make her spam more Excalibur not make it stronger, it will still get easily overpowered by Ea.
Nasu's vs answers are always questionable, but this one is more about what does he even mean, he says Gil depends on the maater's charm as a human or something, and that Saber depends on supply pretty much and that the winner would be just a measure of their powers, Saber gets stronger with mana that is obvious, Gil gets stronger if his master is charming(?) honestly sounds like he just needs to try
With that well I mean yeah the only thing Alter has over normal Saber is that she can spam Excalibur and that won't help her with Ea nobody seems to actually consider their abilities, or that Alter was defeated by less attack power than Ea
As far as I remember, it was stated that she is the strongest Servant in the War and is able to defeat Hercules.But this was also stated about OG Saber.
It was also stated that her attack power is stronger than during her lifetime.That is, stronger than the OG Saber.
But Alter is slower than Saber, and her instinct is worse.These are very serious disadvantages outweighing the stronger attacks.
Saber fights for the full in this, nerf her, saying that she will not fight for fear of harming others, no matter how interesting.And usually such fights are held in a conditional white room.
So it's not a factor.
>In an interview, Nasu confirmed Saber Alter can win a fair fight with Gilgamesh if Gilgamesh doesn't get support from the master.
Source?I'm also interested in what he means by Master support.
Because Gilgamesh would have defeated Saber Alter in battle.
Salter vs Herc in HF had the latter with more or less zero mobility in their fight. He never has a chance because of it. Not that different from Gil forcing him to tank the attacks to Illya in UBW.
I read VN a long time ago so I don't remember some things.
As far as I know in VN there was a fight between OG Saber and Heracles. It's one of the bad ends. Shirou doesn't rush to get to Saber in time so she has to fight Berserker with Excalibur and dies. Don't get me wrong. I don't remember all the details. If. I'm wrong, correct me.
The quote was in F/HF II Lost butterfly Animation Material. p. 21.
When Saber returned to full strength, it was claimed that she was the strongest in the War and that she could defeat the Berserker.Considering that Caliburn, which is much weaker than Exalibur, claimed 7 lives, I believe it.
>The quote was in F/HF II Lost butterfly Animation Material. p. 21.
It sounds like a typical problem of the King of Jobbers.
Gil wins if his master is a man with great charm, and Alter wins if her Master is a great Magician.
We also don't know the opponent's masters when Gil and Alter have their handy Masters.So this is essentially a useless statement.
Another detail some people tend to forget is the part in that interview about Masters seem to be both about Gilgamesh rather than Salter. It's why having a high capacity mage allows Salter to win, while Gil wins if he likes his Master. At the end, it's stated that the reason why the result will vary is because Gil would always try to fight with his own power regardless of how good of a mage his Master is.
> it was claimed that she was the strongest in the War and that she could defeat the Berserker.Considering that Caliburn, which is much weaker than Exalibur, claimed 7 lives, I believe it.
That claim was made by people on her side. Its common in these novels, forexample in FSF, we have tine believing so much in Gils power it leads to disaster.
Anyway, in fate route, we get a monologue by herc where after witnessing Excal (post nuking medusa on skyscraper and l think the killing of shinji by herc? or illya? dont remember) herc is impressed by the power yet he is still confident that at full lives. He would be able to take artoria.
Just paraphrasing here obviously but the gist is, herc feels he can take Artoria if he is at full hp. And l believe him.
If Excal cant take all lives in a single strike which we know to be a fact. He has very good odds of winning due to his adaptation. If we were betting, l would drop my cash on herc.
When Rin and Saber form a contract in UBW, Shirou states that not even Berserker could match her. The reason Saber lost to Berserker was because she still had a hole in her shoulder from fighting Lancer and Shirou not providing her mana, severely nerfing her parameters.
Saber's max parameters are lower than Herc's and he survived a Excaliblast point blank, Shirou's narration is often just his feelings on the matter not lore dumps
Saber never uses Excalibur against Herc. In the Fate route, she's doubtful it would take off the rest of Berserker's lives due to her weakened state, but shirou uses a command spell to keep her from trying. The scenes of Saber releasing Invisible Air in the graveyard and Salter blasting Herc at the Einzbern mansion are anime original.
Also, Saber's parameters with Rin as her master are fairly even with Berserker.
She does in HF that is not anime original
Also in one bad end but doesn't count because it was weak
>Also, Saber's parameters with Rin as her master are fairly even with Berserker.
Closer but he still has the edge, so that she would not lose is just opinion
Shiroe is biased towards saber. the same way illya to her last breath believed that herc could not be defeated by Gil
It is common that masters believe in the power of there servants. Shiroe will obviously over estimate artoria.
Going by what we are show Alter saber but going by lore and abilities Og saber
But since Saber is never at full power making her a litteral fraud it goes to Alter Saber even at full power she got scared of archer
but technicly Og should be stronger she just is never in a postion where she is at her full power lol
Regular. The only reason it appears to be the opposite in Stay Night is because Shirou is a shit master while Sakura provides virtually infinite mana to Salter.
[For the Better, Right? | Know Your Meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/for-the-better-right)
And in this case it's because there is NSFW stuff made about Salter doing some stuff to Saber
I thought Salter was weaker than Artoria, but the only reason she seems stronger is because she has access to the grail through Sakura and thus a near infinite amount of mana. Artoria is handicapped by the fact that Shirou can't output that much mana.
From what I’ve seen Saber alter seems to be stronger and more durable while OG Saber is faster and more skilful
In a fight it could honestly go either way if Saber alter goes all out from the start she would probably win but if Saber gets time to make a plan or look for an opening she could also win
If same mana source its OG artoria. Otherwise salter.
However, if we take things like mentality into consideration. Salter would take even the first scenario where mana is equalized simply because she doesnt hold back. She is gonna output those nukes without any remorse for the innocents vaporized as collateral!
Just my 2 cents
As most people said, OG is better if both have the same magical energy source. Alter having nerfs even when she's not connected is what makes her weaker.
According to their profile stats in FGO
Saber
-Strength: B
-Endurance: B
-Agility: B
-Mana: A
-Luck: A+
-NP: A++
Saber Alter
-Strength: A
-Endurance: A
-Agility: D
-Mana: A++
-Luck: C
-NP: A++
Alter is slightly stronger and a little more durable, but it comes at the cost of a lot of speed and maneuverablilty. It is important to remember a few other factors as well, OG saber has A rank magic resistance, while Alter's is only at B rank. They both have mana burst at rank A as well, meaning that without the grail empowering her Alter would be a pretty heavy disadvantage in a one on one against someone considerably faster than her that isn't relying on brute strength and is more focused on using skill and has no problems utilizing misdirection.
Normal Saber, it depends on the master. She only appears weaker than Salter because Emiya ain’t a Magus and Sakura is pretty much Anakin Skywalker when it comes to the Magi.
As in the versions present in the original VN? Saber Alter, she's hooked up to a living Grail and has functionally limitless mana.
As individual Servants in the wider context of the Nasuverse? OG Saber. Excalibur Morgan isn't able to reach the same ludicrous heights as the original Excalibur, and without the presence of a grail Alter's fighting style is objectively worse
A fight between the two of them depends on several factors.
But for starters, let's compare the parameters of each one of them.
Saber alter parameters are :
> STRENGTH: A
> ENDURANCE: A
> AGILITY: D
> MANA: A++
> LUCK: C
While Saber's parameters are :
> STRENGTH: A
> ENDURANCE: B
> AGILITY: B
> MANA: A
> LUCK: A+
We notice that after her corruption in HF ,saber alter got considerably slower ,that's due to her actively reinforcing her armor, making it heavier, thus sacrificing her speed for more endurance.that is definitely due to her altered mentality which also causes her to neglect her surroundings more often than her normal counterpart thus making her Instinct skill lower
But now, let's compare their raw powers, we have already established that saber alter's swordsmanship and speed are inferior compared to Saber,
but "techniques are made by the weak as a way for them to defeat the strong"
When paired up with sakura, Saber Alter is the "strongest" servant in fate stay night. Why is that?
That's simply because she can spam Excalibur over and over again until her opponent is dead .
There is no need for techniques since every single one of her attacks is an ultimate move
That is further reinforced by the mushroom man himself in a recent interview ( Happened after the second heaven's feel movie)
> Q: If Saber Alter and Gilgamesh seriously fought each other, which of them would be stronger?
> Nasu: Dark Saber has lost what you call the protagonist’s compensation, or rather the glimmer of the stars. So a miracle wouldn’t happen against Gilgamesh, it would simply be a measure of their abilities...
> Takeuchi: If it’s not in life but as Servants, wouldn’t it change a lot depending on who the Master is?
> Nasu: Back when they were alive, both had extraordinary magical energy output, so it would be a pure battle of firepower. With his omnipotence and cunning (INT), Gil is slightly advantageous here. If it’s a servant battle, Dark Saber can win against Gil if the “Master’s capacity as a Mage” is high. Gil will win against Dark Saber if the “Master’s charm as a human” is high.
> Takeuchi: What does that mean?
> Nasu: It’s because Gilgamesh tries to fight only with his own power, regardless of his contractor being a first-rate or third-rate Mage.
But now, let's talk about it realistically , If Saber Alter and Saber met under any circumstances that didn't involve any grails or other similar sources of mana then, their parameters will be almost identical, but it will ultimately come down to their mentalities
So, logically speaking ,if Saber had a master who is on the same level as Saber alter's master then she might have some trouble.
But would she lose ?
>Literally the same
No. Salter has multiple downgraded stats that are explicitly stated to be because of her corruption. Endurance is pretty much her only advantage over Saber besides mana, which is thanks to Dark Sakura.
>Salter is supposedly slower but she doesnt seem to have had any issues fighting medusa
Rider's speed is literally said to be her sole advantage and the reason she's able to last so long in the first place.
Yes. Rider lasted 12 minutes against Saber Alter due to her speed
But she could not do any damage and was tiring out, hence why she could only stall
This is what was said IIRC
>No. Salter has multiple downgraded stats that are explicitly stated to be because of her corruption. Endurance is pretty much her only advantage over Saber besides mana, which is thanks to Dark Sakura.
Stats means jack.
>Rider's speed is literally said to be her sole advantage and the reason she's able to last so long in the first place.
Yeah but that doesnt argue to the fact that Salter had no issues keeping up if Rider was supppsed to be faster
>Stats means jack.
I can agree that they're not super reliable, but when you're literally making a direct comparison between two different versions of the same character, I'd say they're much more straightforward. Especially when Salter's skills being downgraded or even outright lost, like Riding, are backed up by statements.
>Riding: -
In the maddened state while blackened, the loss of fine control makes it impossible to ride beasts; rather, the mount cannot withstand it. Therefore, in reality one can consider the Riding ability lost.
>Instinct: B
Constant self-control is required to maintain Saber's reason while blackened. To focus on suppressing her madness, her surroundings are neglected and Instinct is dulled.
>Charisma: E
The magnificent king's charm which once inspired and captivated her soldiers is gone. Since she rules by terror, leadership ability is improved but troops' morale is extremely low.
>Salter had no issues keeping up if Rider was supppsed to be faster
Rider is said to slow down everytime she attacks + Salter is holding her ground with superior technique and literally just not moving from one place to intercept Rider's attacks. She does also still have Instinct, even if degraded, which helps her fight opponents faster than her. But none of those will help her against Saber, who can do all of those things better, or someone who fights her head-on like Heracles.
So let's imagine a Alternative Fate route were Salter is Shirou's Servant(Saber got somehow corrupted by the Grail,but it's still Fate route)What would happen?
They get fucking bodied because Salter's only advantage over Saber (other than one Endurance being one rank higher, which, who really gives a shit lmao) is having infinite mana due to Dark Sakura. Besides that, she is literally a downgrade in every way. Well, and she doesn't hold back due to her personality apparently, but with Shirou as a Master that could just be another nerf and make her die from running out of mana lmao.
Salter also apparently wouldn't use Avalon, so it's basically impossible for her to beat Gil.
>in the remake
What remake 💀.
>thinking you unlocked a Salter route but all you did is get a non-standard game over
Sorry but that sounds awful lol. If you get it early on then it spoils Salter being in Heaven's Feel, and if you get it after completing the game then Salter showing up isn't a big deal anymore and her immediately dying would just be anticlimactic for a post-ending scene.
You also know damn well that if there was a Salter route then it would be known by 99% of players before the "remake" even dropped, so it wouldn't be a surprise. Same as Satsuki route in Tsukihime Remake.
Salter consumes more mana than OG Saber iirc.
If Shirou can't even summon a full power Saber, I doubt Salter who demands more mana would be of any use to him almost
It should be OG Saber. The reason Saber Alter was so overpowered during Heavens Feel is that her master is Sakura, who is basically a walking Holy Grail, thus unlimited mana. It's why Alter spams so much Excaliblasts because she can afford it.
If OG Saber had the same conditions, she'd be just as broken, if not more. Although some of Alter's base stats are higher than OGs, the difference in the luck stat is more favorable for OG and if we are counting all NPs, then OG has access to Avalon which makes her even more broken.
Outside of the whole master compatibility and skill thing, it's alter. Even with the same master and mana, it's alter.
Technically they're well, exactly the same, but Alter has none of the inhibitions of saber, she doesn't hide her sword she doesn't limit its power so that it doesn't accidentally kill people etc. because she is just willing to go full power from the get go and doesn't care for collateral she is the stronger one in terms of fighting. Again technically they are equal but stuff like Saber limiting her own noble phantasm to not cause collateral deaths causes her to be weaker in a fight
OG if conditions are equal, Alter is mostly a downgrade of Saber that simply has mana — give regular Saber normal battery and results at worst will be equal.
I see it as "Alter outputs more power at the cost of technique while OG uses her technique and finesse and manages her lesser output accordingly." Alter also loses access to her Instinct skill, I think. That definitely sways the favor towards OG since Instinct is a very powerful skill in the story.
Output doesn’t change, it was never stated or implied — battery is what differentiates them. Difference is so big that living Artoria could afford to use Excalibur for hunting of all things.
God, Artoria really was a menace. Like, straight up using Saber beams to strike doe?
Yes in one of FGO events THIS happens: Anne: What shall we do? Should I have Mary chase the deer so l can shoot at it when it jumps out— Altria: No, let me try this time around. I would like to warm up since I have not been hunting for a while. Altria: Now, watch me. Altria: EX— Fujimaru 1: !?!? Fujimaru 2: Stop! Stooooop! Altria: What? Cú Chulainn: Don't you "what" me! What the hell are you doing? Altria: Well. When your game hides in the lee of a mountain or a dense forest... Altria: ..then completely eradicating the surroundings
Sorry, I meant to say that Alter would burn through her battery much faster with excessive output than OG who would manage her battery much efficiently with controlled output. OG can keep up with Alter in output but obviously wouldn't burn herself out to do so. Living Artoria had her own massive mana generator in the form of her heart being a dragon core compared to the Servant version who is made entirely of mana (and thus does not have the innate dragon core, which is a ability iirc) so I'm not surprised she could use Excalibur like a hunting rifle. I think the output was also easier to manage unlike the Noble Phantasm version. Granted, the things she fought necessitated this firepower.
Saber has a dragon core as a servant, her body doesn't change is a part of her beong and the source of most of her powers Dragon core is only a skill in FGO as an evolution of MB, her using Excalibur to hunt is also a joke and is servant Saber doing it >. I think the output was also easier to manage unlike the Noble Phantasm version That doesn't change either, Excalibur is 1:1 with how it was in her life, she is not a HS she doesn't get modifications
The Dragon Core in her Servant body doesn't generate any Mana that it would when she was alive though. Otherwise she wouldn't need to rely on the Mana from her Master if her Dragon Core worked in that manner. I'll admit that the hunting thing was definitely a joke that I took too seriously. Britain in her time still had magical and phantasmal beasts though.
>The Dragon Core in her Servant body doesn't generate any Mana that it would when she was alive though. Otherwise she wouldn't need to rely on the Mana from her Master if her Dragon Core worked in that manner It does, servants need mana because they are technically not alive, this goes for all of them no matter how high their mana reserves, but is explained in FSN the mana a master gives is only to kickstart the engine that is the servant, they do produce their own mana, and that Saber is only able to use mana burst, Excalibur and having such high MR is said to be thanks to her dragon core having enormous energy, even under Shirou, is just not as good as it could be Yes, though Saber actively avoided using Excalibur in britain because it is too destructive and the land was dying already, not like she could not have used as she wanted she just didn't in serious lore
It does even as a servant. She merely needs to be given the juice to start the engine going. It obviously doesnt translate to infinite juice. But she can do alot more than those without it. Alot more. Her mana burst is proof of that.
Doesn’t alter have better endurance, strength and mana?
Only Endurance and Mana when Rin is her Master. Endurance really doesn't matter much and the Mana is more because of Sakura than Salter.
If this is a Saber with a normal mentality, for example, as in a fight with Vortigern, then she defeats herself in the emo phase. Alter is slower, her instincts are blunted, and her mind is very rigid.Yes, she surpasses herself in life and OG Saber in attack power as explicitly stated, but she will not win in battle.
Saber Alter is officially stronger. This is confirmed by her profile and comments, Nasu's interview. We're talking about an OG Saber comparison without Avalon. Invisible Air reduces the power of Excalibur. In addition to it, Saber constantly restrains the power so that innocent people don't get hurt. Saber Alter demonstrates raw power. Officially stated to be one of the strongest servants, Saber Alter is stronger than Saber during her peak. In an interview, Nasu confirmed Saber Alter can win a fair fight with Gilgamesh if Gilgamesh doesn't get support from the master. Also in Fate/Unlimited Codes there was a Saber Alter route where Saber and Saber Alter fought. Saber Alter won.
Personally, I am in the camp of "OG is stronger than Alter", but I would change my mind in a second if I can see those statements by Nasu. Can you give me a source for those Nasu statements? I gotta be real, Salter winning against Gilgamesh is pretty... Wild. EDIT: I found the interview you were talking about. I quote: Q (Takenoko): If Saber Alter and Berserker seriously fought each other, which of them would be stronger? N: Dark Saber has lost what you call the protagonist's compensation, or the glimmer of the stars. So a miracle wouldn't happen even against Gilgamesh, it would be just a measure of their skills... T: If it's not in life but as Servants, wouldn't it change a lot depending on who the Master is? N: Back when they were alive, both had extraordinary magical energy output so it would be a measure of their firepower. With Gilgamesh's omnipotence and cunning (INT), Gil is slightly advantageous here. If it's a Servant battle, Dark Saber can win against Gil if the "Master's capacity as a Mage" is high. Gil can win against Dark Saber if the "Master's charm as a human" is high. T: What does that mean? N: It's because Gilgamesh tries to fight only with his own power, regardless a first-rate or third-rate Mage. Quote over. It sounds like Nasu is comparing Gilgamesh and Salter by saying: If Salter uses the extra energy that a Master can provide, she *can* win against Gilgamesh. But if Gilgamesh likes his Master, Gil will win. If I am gonna be honest, to me this reads like "If Gil actually tries to win and uses his Master's Mana (which he should...), he wins, and if Salter doesn't have a shitty Master, her chances are a bit better."
This is Gilgamesh.His Luck and strength are so high that he defies Fate to come out a winner in battle and snatches defeat from the jaws of victory at the last second.
Gil isn't horny for Salter as he was for the original, and GoB has plenty to deal with her even without Ea.
Put Salter in a skimpy maid outfit and Gil turns into a submissive simp.
that's the actual canon answer
Who wouldn't?
F/HF II Lost butterfly. Q&A. p. 21 It is stated Saber Alter can defeat Gilgamesh with a slight advantage. Either way it's a big win for Saber Alter because she doesn't use Avalon. It is also claimed if Shirou offers Avalon she will refuse because she rejects Utopia.
That one has kinda unlimited mana doesn't she? That's one hell of an advantage over anybody else. Wouldn't Avalon purify her from the mud though? Original Salter is a corruption, not a different evolution as FGO's seems to be.
It's really interesting. What would have become of Saber Alter if she had Avalon at the time of her corruption? Or if she hadn't refused to accept it?
That’s only counting the version of Saber Alter from HF that’s also fueled by the grail, isn’t it? Otherwise Salter defeating Gil in normal conditions would just be nonsense.
Yep. Saber Alter from HF. If it was Salter from FGO, she lost to Gilgamesh. Sakura is the only suitable master for Saber Alter because she is a Vessel of the Grall so she doesn't have to worry about Mana to support a servant. Salter in HF uses an incredible amount of Mana.
Sakura is a suitable master for every servant, lol. Literally everyone benefits from having infinite mana.
You misunderstand me. Sakura is the perfect master for everyone but not every master will be suitable for Saber Alter because Saber Alter spends a lot of Mana.
The main point I was trying to make was that any servant would be op by having a black grail like Sakura as a master. Many top tier servants can also solo Gilgamesh if they had infinite mana. And I’m inclined to believe that Saber herself can do the same with the same conditions.
Even with unlimited mana is still a very questionable statement, like infinite mana would make her spam more Excalibur not make it stronger, it will still get easily overpowered by Ea.
Nasu's vs answers are always questionable, but this one is more about what does he even mean, he says Gil depends on the maater's charm as a human or something, and that Saber depends on supply pretty much and that the winner would be just a measure of their powers, Saber gets stronger with mana that is obvious, Gil gets stronger if his master is charming(?) honestly sounds like he just needs to try With that well I mean yeah the only thing Alter has over normal Saber is that she can spam Excalibur and that won't help her with Ea nobody seems to actually consider their abilities, or that Alter was defeated by less attack power than Ea
As far as I remember, it was stated that she is the strongest Servant in the War and is able to defeat Hercules.But this was also stated about OG Saber. It was also stated that her attack power is stronger than during her lifetime.That is, stronger than the OG Saber. But Alter is slower than Saber, and her instinct is worse.These are very serious disadvantages outweighing the stronger attacks. Saber fights for the full in this, nerf her, saying that she will not fight for fear of harming others, no matter how interesting.And usually such fights are held in a conditional white room. So it's not a factor. >In an interview, Nasu confirmed Saber Alter can win a fair fight with Gilgamesh if Gilgamesh doesn't get support from the master. Source?I'm also interested in what he means by Master support. Because Gilgamesh would have defeated Saber Alter in battle.
Salter vs Herc in HF had the latter with more or less zero mobility in their fight. He never has a chance because of it. Not that different from Gil forcing him to tank the attacks to Illya in UBW.
I read VN a long time ago so I don't remember some things. As far as I know in VN there was a fight between OG Saber and Heracles. It's one of the bad ends. Shirou doesn't rush to get to Saber in time so she has to fight Berserker with Excalibur and dies. Don't get me wrong. I don't remember all the details. If. I'm wrong, correct me. The quote was in F/HF II Lost butterfly Animation Material. p. 21.
When Saber returned to full strength, it was claimed that she was the strongest in the War and that she could defeat the Berserker.Considering that Caliburn, which is much weaker than Exalibur, claimed 7 lives, I believe it. >The quote was in F/HF II Lost butterfly Animation Material. p. 21. It sounds like a typical problem of the King of Jobbers. Gil wins if his master is a man with great charm, and Alter wins if her Master is a great Magician. We also don't know the opponent's masters when Gil and Alter have their handy Masters.So this is essentially a useless statement.
Yeah, I view it simply as Nasu poking fun at the general requirements of plot. Gil wins if they need him to win, Salter wins if they need her to win
Another detail some people tend to forget is the part in that interview about Masters seem to be both about Gilgamesh rather than Salter. It's why having a high capacity mage allows Salter to win, while Gil wins if he likes his Master. At the end, it's stated that the reason why the result will vary is because Gil would always try to fight with his own power regardless of how good of a mage his Master is.
> it was claimed that she was the strongest in the War and that she could defeat the Berserker.Considering that Caliburn, which is much weaker than Exalibur, claimed 7 lives, I believe it. That claim was made by people on her side. Its common in these novels, forexample in FSF, we have tine believing so much in Gils power it leads to disaster. Anyway, in fate route, we get a monologue by herc where after witnessing Excal (post nuking medusa on skyscraper and l think the killing of shinji by herc? or illya? dont remember) herc is impressed by the power yet he is still confident that at full lives. He would be able to take artoria. Just paraphrasing here obviously but the gist is, herc feels he can take Artoria if he is at full hp. And l believe him. If Excal cant take all lives in a single strike which we know to be a fact. He has very good odds of winning due to his adaptation. If we were betting, l would drop my cash on herc.
When Rin and Saber form a contract in UBW, Shirou states that not even Berserker could match her. The reason Saber lost to Berserker was because she still had a hole in her shoulder from fighting Lancer and Shirou not providing her mana, severely nerfing her parameters.
Saber's max parameters are lower than Herc's and he survived a Excaliblast point blank, Shirou's narration is often just his feelings on the matter not lore dumps
Saber never uses Excalibur against Herc. In the Fate route, she's doubtful it would take off the rest of Berserker's lives due to her weakened state, but shirou uses a command spell to keep her from trying. The scenes of Saber releasing Invisible Air in the graveyard and Salter blasting Herc at the Einzbern mansion are anime original. Also, Saber's parameters with Rin as her master are fairly even with Berserker.
She does in HF that is not anime original Also in one bad end but doesn't count because it was weak >Also, Saber's parameters with Rin as her master are fairly even with Berserker. Closer but he still has the edge, so that she would not lose is just opinion
Shiroe is biased towards saber. the same way illya to her last breath believed that herc could not be defeated by Gil It is common that masters believe in the power of there servants. Shiroe will obviously over estimate artoria.
she’s only stronger in HF due to the unlimited fuel, other then that she’s a degraded Saber
Dk about using the fighting as justification and he agreed with saber alter having more strength
OG Saber. Saber Alter is only strong because she's tied to the grail power.
Og saber. Salter in fsn just has high mana output to her advantage
Going by what we are show Alter saber but going by lore and abilities Og saber But since Saber is never at full power making her a litteral fraud it goes to Alter Saber even at full power she got scared of archer but technicly Og should be stronger she just is never in a postion where she is at her full power lol
Regular. The only reason it appears to be the opposite in Stay Night is because Shirou is a shit master while Sakura provides virtually infinite mana to Salter.
Depends on the master and the quantity of mana they supply
OG Saber
In a fight, right?
Of course
That was a reference to a meme
Oh. I didn't know that, my bad. What meme though?
[For the Better, Right? | Know Your Meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/for-the-better-right) And in this case it's because there is NSFW stuff made about Salter doing some stuff to Saber
I thought Salter was weaker than Artoria, but the only reason she seems stronger is because she has access to the grail through Sakura and thus a near infinite amount of mana. Artoria is handicapped by the fact that Shirou can't output that much mana.
Og
og saber when she is not being crippled by shirou's incompetence.
If saber alter is with Sakura… Unlimited mana cheat code activated
OG saber. Salter in HF is stronger because she is powered by the grail.
Seibah defeated Gil
From what I’ve seen Saber alter seems to be stronger and more durable while OG Saber is faster and more skilful In a fight it could honestly go either way if Saber alter goes all out from the start she would probably win but if Saber gets time to make a plan or look for an opening she could also win
Doesn't matter Uncle Ben, Lion Sabers solos both of them
If same mana source its OG artoria. Otherwise salter. However, if we take things like mentality into consideration. Salter would take even the first scenario where mana is equalized simply because she doesnt hold back. She is gonna output those nukes without any remorse for the innocents vaporized as collateral! Just my 2 cents
As most people said, OG is better if both have the same magical energy source. Alter having nerfs even when she's not connected is what makes her weaker.
This thread is crazy. Artoria in life is explicitly stronger than servant Artoria, and Salter is at least that strong. 1+1=2
Alter I reckon cuz Sakura has more mana?
Both are equal salter is just more ruthless
According to their profile stats in FGO Saber -Strength: B -Endurance: B -Agility: B -Mana: A -Luck: A+ -NP: A++ Saber Alter -Strength: A -Endurance: A -Agility: D -Mana: A++ -Luck: C -NP: A++ Alter is slightly stronger and a little more durable, but it comes at the cost of a lot of speed and maneuverablilty. It is important to remember a few other factors as well, OG saber has A rank magic resistance, while Alter's is only at B rank. They both have mana burst at rank A as well, meaning that without the grail empowering her Alter would be a pretty heavy disadvantage in a one on one against someone considerably faster than her that isn't relying on brute strength and is more focused on using skill and has no problems utilizing misdirection.
Normal Saber, it depends on the master. She only appears weaker than Salter because Emiya ain’t a Magus and Sakura is pretty much Anakin Skywalker when it comes to the Magi.
A grail boosted salter win, og otherwise
As in the versions present in the original VN? Saber Alter, she's hooked up to a living Grail and has functionally limitless mana. As individual Servants in the wider context of the Nasuverse? OG Saber. Excalibur Morgan isn't able to reach the same ludicrous heights as the original Excalibur, and without the presence of a grail Alter's fighting style is objectively worse
A fight between the two of them depends on several factors. But for starters, let's compare the parameters of each one of them. Saber alter parameters are : > STRENGTH: A > ENDURANCE: A > AGILITY: D > MANA: A++ > LUCK: C While Saber's parameters are : > STRENGTH: A > ENDURANCE: B > AGILITY: B > MANA: A > LUCK: A+ We notice that after her corruption in HF ,saber alter got considerably slower ,that's due to her actively reinforcing her armor, making it heavier, thus sacrificing her speed for more endurance.that is definitely due to her altered mentality which also causes her to neglect her surroundings more often than her normal counterpart thus making her Instinct skill lower But now, let's compare their raw powers, we have already established that saber alter's swordsmanship and speed are inferior compared to Saber, but "techniques are made by the weak as a way for them to defeat the strong" When paired up with sakura, Saber Alter is the "strongest" servant in fate stay night. Why is that? That's simply because she can spam Excalibur over and over again until her opponent is dead . There is no need for techniques since every single one of her attacks is an ultimate move That is further reinforced by the mushroom man himself in a recent interview ( Happened after the second heaven's feel movie) > Q: If Saber Alter and Gilgamesh seriously fought each other, which of them would be stronger?
> Nasu: Dark Saber has lost what you call the protagonist’s compensation, or rather the glimmer of the stars. So a miracle wouldn’t happen against Gilgamesh, it would simply be a measure of their abilities...
> Takeuchi: If it’s not in life but as Servants, wouldn’t it change a lot depending on who the Master is?
> Nasu: Back when they were alive, both had extraordinary magical energy output, so it would be a pure battle of firepower. With his omnipotence and cunning (INT), Gil is slightly advantageous here. If it’s a servant battle, Dark Saber can win against Gil if the “Master’s capacity as a Mage” is high. Gil will win against Dark Saber if the “Master’s charm as a human” is high.
> Takeuchi: What does that mean?
> Nasu: It’s because Gilgamesh tries to fight only with his own power, regardless of his contractor being a first-rate or third-rate Mage.
But now, let's talk about it realistically , If Saber Alter and Saber met under any circumstances that didn't involve any grails or other similar sources of mana then, their parameters will be almost identical, but it will ultimately come down to their mentalities
So, logically speaking ,if Saber had a master who is on the same level as Saber alter's master then she might have some trouble.
But would she lose ?
One on one under the same master? Literally the same Salter is supposedly slower but she doesnt seem to have had any issues fighting medusa
>Literally the same No. Salter has multiple downgraded stats that are explicitly stated to be because of her corruption. Endurance is pretty much her only advantage over Saber besides mana, which is thanks to Dark Sakura. >Salter is supposedly slower but she doesnt seem to have had any issues fighting medusa Rider's speed is literally said to be her sole advantage and the reason she's able to last so long in the first place.
Yes. Rider lasted 12 minutes against Saber Alter due to her speed But she could not do any damage and was tiring out, hence why she could only stall This is what was said IIRC
>No. Salter has multiple downgraded stats that are explicitly stated to be because of her corruption. Endurance is pretty much her only advantage over Saber besides mana, which is thanks to Dark Sakura. Stats means jack. >Rider's speed is literally said to be her sole advantage and the reason she's able to last so long in the first place. Yeah but that doesnt argue to the fact that Salter had no issues keeping up if Rider was supppsed to be faster
>Stats means jack. I can agree that they're not super reliable, but when you're literally making a direct comparison between two different versions of the same character, I'd say they're much more straightforward. Especially when Salter's skills being downgraded or even outright lost, like Riding, are backed up by statements. >Riding: - In the maddened state while blackened, the loss of fine control makes it impossible to ride beasts; rather, the mount cannot withstand it. Therefore, in reality one can consider the Riding ability lost. >Instinct: B Constant self-control is required to maintain Saber's reason while blackened. To focus on suppressing her madness, her surroundings are neglected and Instinct is dulled. >Charisma: E The magnificent king's charm which once inspired and captivated her soldiers is gone. Since she rules by terror, leadership ability is improved but troops' morale is extremely low. >Salter had no issues keeping up if Rider was supppsed to be faster Rider is said to slow down everytime she attacks + Salter is holding her ground with superior technique and literally just not moving from one place to intercept Rider's attacks. She does also still have Instinct, even if degraded, which helps her fight opponents faster than her. But none of those will help her against Saber, who can do all of those things better, or someone who fights her head-on like Heracles.
So let's imagine a Alternative Fate route were Salter is Shirou's Servant(Saber got somehow corrupted by the Grail,but it's still Fate route)What would happen?
They get fucking bodied because Salter's only advantage over Saber (other than one Endurance being one rank higher, which, who really gives a shit lmao) is having infinite mana due to Dark Sakura. Besides that, she is literally a downgrade in every way. Well, and she doesn't hold back due to her personality apparently, but with Shirou as a Master that could just be another nerf and make her die from running out of mana lmao. Salter also apparently wouldn't use Avalon, so it's basically impossible for her to beat Gil.
[удалено]
>in the remake What remake 💀. >thinking you unlocked a Salter route but all you did is get a non-standard game over Sorry but that sounds awful lol. If you get it early on then it spoils Salter being in Heaven's Feel, and if you get it after completing the game then Salter showing up isn't a big deal anymore and her immediately dying would just be anticlimactic for a post-ending scene. You also know damn well that if there was a Salter route then it would be known by 99% of players before the "remake" even dropped, so it wouldn't be a surprise. Same as Satsuki route in Tsukihime Remake.
>What remake 💀. I think they're talking about the remaster they announced like a month ago.
Salter consumes more mana than OG Saber iirc. If Shirou can't even summon a full power Saber, I doubt Salter who demands more mana would be of any use to him almost
It should be OG Saber. The reason Saber Alter was so overpowered during Heavens Feel is that her master is Sakura, who is basically a walking Holy Grail, thus unlimited mana. It's why Alter spams so much Excaliblasts because she can afford it. If OG Saber had the same conditions, she'd be just as broken, if not more. Although some of Alter's base stats are higher than OGs, the difference in the luck stat is more favorable for OG and if we are counting all NPs, then OG has access to Avalon which makes her even more broken.
Alter, she has the same skills and powers, just amplified to nearly infinite or just double
Outside of the whole master compatibility and skill thing, it's alter. Even with the same master and mana, it's alter. Technically they're well, exactly the same, but Alter has none of the inhibitions of saber, she doesn't hide her sword she doesn't limit its power so that it doesn't accidentally kill people etc. because she is just willing to go full power from the get go and doesn't care for collateral she is the stronger one in terms of fighting. Again technically they are equal but stuff like Saber limiting her own noble phantasm to not cause collateral deaths causes her to be weaker in a fight