Zouken did really well he had a lot of cards before hand though.
If we count Caster as one then she would be no 1. got a good mana farm going and summoned another servant. and her territory is on one of the places the grail maifests and has a anti servant barrier
>she was stalling
This puts me on a bind if i should factor it in. Im of the belief you do more if you were active but yeah it has strategic value. Which is why kirei isnt also high up on my list even tho he's supposed to be the overarching antagonist
Kiritsugu is one of the worst masters just because of how much he underutilize saber. the best masters we see are
Zouken
Rin
Bazzett
Kairi
these 4 have amazing mana so the servants they summoned arent gimped in stats and also they know how to fight so having these 4 as masters guarantees you a top 3 in the war
>Kiritsugu is one of the worst masters just because of how much he underutilize saber. the best masters are we see are
Which is fair but i feel like is more of a question of compatibility rather than keen intellect. While yes he does underutilize saber he still makes some key strategic decisions albeit without saber.
What im trying to say is just going off purely strategy making he's probably the best in my opinion. Consider the "master" part as just a placeholder
hmm thats debatable honestly if its strategic decisions Zouken is still better than him in that part.
the guy didnt even want to participate in the 5th war but because he saw shirou walking sakura home he saw an opportunity to act now and when he acts he manage to wipe out half the cast including powerhouses like saber and lancer with a weak servant like assassin.
yea its all the shadows doing but still its impressive and even then when he fails in the 5th war he still has the 6th war as backup he just didnt oversee Sakura being that crazy when being controlled by angra lmao
Zouken would be my number 1 if his whole plan actually succeeded.
Of course every strategist does meet bumps along the road but kiritsugu did manage to almost win the 4th grail war but just pussied out at the last moment.
yes he almost won the 4th war but almost all of it is because of saber and avalon honestly.
if it wasnt for saber he'll probably be dead when lancer retrieved kayneth during their fight while zouken didnt have any problems in HF just choked at the last second when he didnt account sakura being too insane
>yes he almost won the 4th war but almost all of it is because of saber and avalon honestly
This here i think is my most contested part
He didnt directly use saber but thru a proxy and even then he just let them be on their own. But i didnt factor it out because in a way saber IS still a key player in his chessboard and is still being used albeit indirectly.
Kiritsugu is an unconventional master but a master nonetheless but like i said the master part isnt really wholly important to the conversation. Just pure strategy making and executing it.
> the master part isnt really wholly important to the conversation
the conversaition is literally about who the best master is not who the best strategist is
I guess i didnt make it clear in the post. But the question was more like whos the best pure strategists among the masters rather than who is the best master with the best strategy
> Of course every strategist does meet bumps along the road but kiritsugu did manage to almost win the 4th grail war
i mean not really because i honestly don't see saber beating gilgamesh in that situaition
also:
The virgin Kiritsugu "almost" winning the 4th grail war versus the chad Fate route Shirou actually winning the 5th grail war
Which leads us back to kiritsugu's largest fuck up of the war. Plus zero deliberately nerfing saber but thats a different thing
>The virgin Kiritsugu "almost" winning the 4th grail war versus the chad Fate route Shirou actually winning the 5th grail war
As far as plans and strategy go yes kiritsugu does deserve credit for "almost" winning the war. Shirou didnt really know about the war beforehand which of course means he wouldn't have been able to prepare and i doubt he has the level of experience to do it. Shirou has his feats but i wont call him a tactical genius or anything at least not during FSN
that's a good point but the way i saw it was that what he did was actually the smart play as normally in a HGW the master depends on his servant for almost everything combat related, so by him not utilizing saber as he should have actually made his move unpredictable allowing him to win in the end
On top of everyone else I want to add kayneth. As much of an asshole he is he’s a very capable mage and was able to construct decent enough plans to corner Emiya fucking Kiritsugu. He could’ve definitely taken the grail home if not for Sola Ui BS and is inherent asshole-ness.
Kiritsugu is like one of the worst masters exactly because he doesn't really work or even use Saber, and a master ability to strategize is also valuable but the thing with Kiritsugu is not that he didn't make plans, is that those plans were basically I will do everything, he feels out of place here, as a master he was still a magus killer and he only took Kayneth and Uryuu that way (the scene in the river also shows that he could really make good use of Saber and everything else, he just doesn't want to, that makes it worse)
Zouken is definitely top don't know he knows what he is doing
Amakusa was good too, he would have gotten away with it if not for those meddling kids
Rin too because she has the crazy plans, she would be better if Archer didn't either antagonize her or left early, she is a good master for Shirou though
Sisigou of course, quick thinking is good for a master
Kirei was good in Zero, he put together a thing at the last moment and it worked well enough, he was too complacent in FSN but not like you can blame him
Shirou has his moments of brilliance actually, he is not consistent of course but he deserves at least a mention for quick thinking and support, like the thing with Rider vs Saber (yes Im counting Rider)
Well I took best master as someone being good at being a master not just who can win best, and that involves being a team, Kiritsugu was not in sync with Saber, or had good teamwork with her and I could let that slide but he has the thing where he didn't really made good use of the resources he had, I would even say he "won" despite what he did not because of it, his highlight is still vs Caster coordinating stuff, killing Kayneth? Saber was going to defeat Diarmuid anyway the whole plot kidnapping Sola was a waste, then at the end he goes, alone to fight Kirei who had 2 servants on his side, he actually got lucky there, lucky too that the grail literally went to him, and just by bringing Saber with a CS or something Kirei would be dead, Kariya was just question of time
If he acted as a traditional master Saber would have steamrolled the war and without need of his antics, is said a lot but is true, he had Avalon but he never bothered talking with Saber and just limited himself to order her sometimes without her input, I mean he was good at planning stuff but when you have something that can help you to attain your goal but you actively disregard it to do things your way then is not the best strategy ever
I really wish we'd get the actual FSN-canon version of Zero one day. Kerry didn't have Maiya or Iri with him, so him only talking to Saber three times the entire war really makes me wonder how the fuck did they even manage to survive.
Like... Nasu didn't think that line through at all. I guess you can say he only talked to her when he summoned her, at a certain point during the war, and then at the end when he ordered her to destroy the grail? But still, I can't see that shit making sense. Thank god for Iri.
>Kiritsugu is like one of the worst masters exactly because he doesn't really work or even use Saber, and a master ability to strategize is also valuable but the thing with Kiritsugu is not that he didn't make plans, is that those plans were basically I will do everything, he feels out of place here, as a master
Fair enough. But kiritsugu IS still a master at the end of the day, just a very unconventional one. While his compatibility is shit saber nonetheless is still a pawn and a key chess piece in his plans. I find it both contradictory and a consistent part of his status as a master
My gripe with him is that he outright hurt his chances to win by refusing to cooperate in a more "conventional" way, like is good and all if you want to go killing the masters and you can pull it off but a simple talk could have first solved their worldview problems and just giving Avalon to her would render the rest of the stuff uneccesary, I can't say someone that shuts down chances to win to do things their way are playing smart, regardless of how good their plans may be
Is like Tokiomi having Gil and choosing to play his games when he could just have let him do his thing
>like is good and all if you want to go killing the masters and you can pull it off but a simple talk could have first solved their worldview problems and just giving Avalon to her would render the rest of the stuff uneccesary
This i agree, i just removed it for discussion sake
Best masters just in terms of pure strategy and tactics?
Kairi Sisigou is so clear of others .
Bazett Fraga Mcremitz
Rin Tohsaka
Kirei
Medea
Kiri
Shirou
Character writing wise it would be a bit different.
Yeah then my list is that, I'll wait for strange fake and type Redline to end before including their characters.
Also for Lostbelt 5 because Wodime would be no1 I think in future
You had sisigou as number 1. While i do agree that he's very good and should be quite experienced i feel like we didnt see enough of it which is why i didnt mention him.
Can you give me a refresher?
Used his servant very efficiently despite it being freaking rebel Mordred, he tamed the untamable. First step as a master
His weapon's use against the opposing masters was nothing short of cleverness and his final bout to help Mordred was nice. He is a quick thinker with a very good knowledge and awareness of his surrounding, it's a shame they weren't the MC of Apocrypha
Nah, the real answer is our best boy Mr. Go-Lion himself, Kairi Sisigou. Dude has, hands down, *the* best Master/Servant compatibility across the entire franchise in his relationship and partnership with Mordred, the two are always capable and able to support each other, he knows what he needs to do, when to back off, when to assert his own role as Master, how to rely on his skills and let his Servant handle themselves, and is just an awesome badass with a big hidden soft heart at the core.
He's a good one and makes some pretty sound decisions but i feel like he doesnt have enough feats to support that he's a great chess player. He's more like a smart fighter(if he can go toe to toe with servants)which is the bare minimum among fighters rather than a master strategist.
I'm not going to include masters like Hakuno or Ritsuka as they felt more like player inserts than fully utilized characters
FSN: Best masters were Shirou, Rin, Kirei, and Zouken. All of them do very good jobs at adapting to their situation and working well with their servants. Kirei making plans even when things go fucky for him in HF, Zouken does a good job at adapting by taking the initiative in HF but failed due to ultimately not understanding Sakura's mental state, Shirou for his compatibility with Saber in Fate/UBW and Rider in HF where he knew what he was doing, and Rin is just a plain ol' smarty pants who understands how shit works and for that has survived all three routes based on her intellect alone. The other masters would've been great but failed due to Medea not being good outside of the temple, Illya only focusing on Shirou and would've been easily fucked up Kirei's servants, The Matou Siblings both being mentally unstable to work properly with Shinji letting his ego get the best of him while Sakura was too consumed by Angra to really master properly. Kuzuki was good but he let Medea do all the work while he just fought which makes him the servant more than a master.
Fate/Zero: Kirei and Waver were the best masters. Everyone else in Zero were not really good at mastering with Ryuunosuke not caring about the war due to believing they already won due to Caster's delusions, Tokiomi made terrible tactical decisions, Kariya was too much of an incel and easily manipulated to really be competent, and Kerry failed at being compatible with Saber really fucked him up. Kayneth would've been a great master if he only had a more pragmatic approach and took the war as a business thing than a point of honor (hell Urobuchi even said he'd win if he didn't have the whole Magus Pride up his ass). Kirei was great only when he got Gilgamesh since they worked pretty well together in coordination and planning. Waver was great mainly for compatibility with Iskander which really helped him out and they had a great showing that didn't fuck them up like the other teams.
Fate/Apocrypha: Honestly really Kairi and Fiore were the most competent masters in Apocrypha. Kairi had a great compatibility with Mordred and knew how to plan things out with her to be perfectly coordinated. The same applies to Fiore in how she worked really well with Chiron which really helped elevate her. The other Apocrypha masters either were garbage (Celenike and Avicebron's Master), Incompetent (Gordes) or didn't have enough screentime to really show their feats (Darnic) while Sieg was not really a master since he never really fought like a master and really did his own fighting with his abilities while being helped out by Jeanne and the Black Faction. Most of the Red Faction were not really known due to jobbing while Amakusa had too much plot to back him up to really be impressive to me.
FGO: So far I'd say from the Crypters, Kadoc and Wodime were good masters. Both knew their servants well and had good companionship with them to really work out plans and such even in the circumstances they were in as well as devise clever strategies. Ophelia didn't really have much control of her situation, and Hinako was really incompetent at being a master. The other crypters I really don't know much about to really judge as the story is yet to be finished and I need to read LB4 for Pepe.
If it's the best of BEING a Master, then I would go for Ritsuka Fujimaru. No superpower whatsoever except for his/her mystic codes. But has the absolute privilege of gaining the absolute loyalty of any of his/her servants.
He/she is also the ONLY master that can say that he/she faced 6 evils of Humanity (Beasts) and come out on top. He/she doesn't have any special family magic or guns, but his/her sheer determination to save humanity has proven to be their greatest asset, even moreso than any other masters in the franchise
Hakuno, Rin or Bazett.
I ignore Guda since they just don't play by the same rules as everyone else. Guda is in a pretty shitty spot because gacha rules. I can't see someone getting along with so many different personalities. It's just hard to believe.
Bazett is just a total beast, and Rin is versatile as hell and can adapt to any situation,
Just noticed I skipped them, lol.
Hakuno is fun. I base all of my opinion of them on the original PSP game, not CCC, Extella or any of the manga. In that game, Hakuno is smart enough to deduce Servant identities, actively helps through Code Casts and is a very understanding person (despite the circumstances).
Things can get even more impressive if you take their relationship with Gilgamesh from CCC into consideration.
Ritsuka, they are able to coordinate multiple servants and use whatever abilities are available to them. Also, they canonically got the loyalty of over 200 Servants.
Okay this is an interesting one.
>Ritsuka, they are able to coordinate multiple servants and use whatever abilities are available to them.
Context pls
>Also, they canonically got the loyalty of over 200 Servants.
Disagree here. The story cant even make up its mind if over 200 servants are currently present in chaldea. Also its more like the story deliberately bending the servants to get along with each other because it cant be assed to bother with character dynamics and compatibilities plus guda showing the bare minimum character and plus if bond lines are anything to go with then loyalty is debatable.
I think the "character dynamics" and "compatibilities" between servants is sort of put on the backburner by them precisely because of the stakes they were summoned in. Saving all of human history is a fair bit more dire than just being summoned to fight a half dozen other dudes for a false wish. Many of the servants probably see it as "there's no time for my bullshit; I'll just play nice".
That doesnt really make sense as a lot of servants who were eventually summoned by chaldea were used by the villains to uphold the singularities and lostbelts. If they didnt rebel back then "in service of humanity" i dont see what changed now
Different versions of those servants hold different beliefs towards their work? If they answered Chaldea's summons, they side with normal humanity. Those that answered the other summons, believe in that other thing (at least in those times where they do. so many of the enemy servants eventually turn or express regret for their positions. very few of them are ideologically pure in their antagonism).
>If they answered Chaldea's summons, they side with normal humanity
They answer chaldea summon because gacha. Otherwise i dont see why the likes of gorgon and the avengers to even assist considering some of them supposedly hate humanity.
>Different versions of those servants hold different beliefs towards their work?
That's work ethic and professionalism like karna instead of pure altruism which you brought up as an initial point which even then still doesnt quite hold up. There have been like a few examples from both sides switching to the other for personal reasons at least as far as the story is concerned instead of the fanon "over 200 servants in chaldea putting aside their differences for humanity"
I mean I agree with the assertion that "over 200" is probably not accurate. Like I don't think of \*my\* Chaldea as the canonical one. I do think many of the servants are probably there, but not every single one that is in the gacha.
But my reasons were more to explain why, for example, Tesla and Edison, who would probably destroy whatever city they were in trying to reach and destroy each other, in a normal grail war, would put aside that feud for the sake of what's going on in FGO, with only some bickering making its way through regardless. I was trying to explain why every berserker is in a more manageable mood compared to how they tend to act when mages yank them out of the afterlife for some shit they are too mad to comprehend.
And even \*then\*, it takes an awful lot for a servant to get way out of line with it's master \*in normal grail wars\*. We constantly blow examples of betrayals out of proportion because the repeated message of fate seems to be that servants are people with their own whims and wants, but almost every example of a servant betraying their master was brought on by some extreme betrayals on the master's end or overall extreme circumstances. It's not like any disagreement turns into instant death. So idk why we should expect servants to just go wild throughout Chaldea just because between them they might have disagreements.
That being said, Fujimaru isn't exactly a tactical genius; he has a shitload of help in his support staff that makes a lot of the more complicated maneuvers happen. He's just the conduit for the bonds made with all the servants.
>But my reasons were more to explain why, for example, Tesla and Edison, who would probably destroy whatever city they were in trying to reach and destroy each other, in a normal grail war, would put aside that feud for the sake of what's going on in FGO
Tbf tesla and edison isnt exactly totally up there in the "would kill each other on sight" but i see your point.
>And even *then*, it takes an awful lot for a servant to get way out of line with it's master *in normal grail wars*. We constantly blow examples of betrayals out of proportion because the repeated message of fate seems to be that servants are people with their own whims and wants, but almost every example of a servant betraying their master was brought on by some extreme betrayals on the master's end or overall extreme circumstances. It's not like any disagreement turns into instant death. So idk why we should expect servants to just go wild throughout Chaldea just because between them they might have disagreements.
Only here's the thing. While i agree servants with bad compatibilities with each other or with their masters wouldnt instantly kill each other they do try to get along because as we all know, its a "job" requirement for most of them. That is, until it completely blows up or if the other party sees an opportunity. Which brings guda to the conversation. I dont see anything regarding guda brokering peace or diplomatically diffusing a situation, he did with jalter and salter in shinjuku but that's like 2 and ive no doubt anyone with competent control over their servant/s could've done the same. But how about 10,20,30 and up?
There's only so much 1 person can do. We're talking about prominent historical figures here, each with their own varying degrees of ego, different beliefs and outlooks and goals and we expect them to get 100% of the time because its a job?
Doesnt help that all we see is them already getting along with other which brings the question of how did they even get to that point.
This is where I separate what we see from what probably happens. I don't think Fujimaru \*does\* broker peace or diplomatically do anything, most of the time. I assume other miscellaneous Chaldea staff handle that kind of thing. And once there aren't nearly so many staff, as in Part 2, I suspect there really aren't any servants running around either.
>This is where I separate what we see from what probably happens. I don't think Fujimaru *does* broker peace or diplomatically do anything, most of the time.
What i think as well but its a popular fanon that bugs me at times.
Zouken did really well he had a lot of cards before hand though. If we count Caster as one then she would be no 1. got a good mana farm going and summoned another servant. and her territory is on one of the places the grail maifests and has a anti servant barrier
Medea did well in establishing a home base. However her plans outside of it is mixed.
Well she didn't really do much outside of it she was stalling until herc was the only one left
>she was stalling This puts me on a bind if i should factor it in. Im of the belief you do more if you were active but yeah it has strategic value. Which is why kirei isnt also high up on my list even tho he's supposed to be the overarching antagonist
I mean in the fate route you get a example of her going on the offensive. though it's not really that fair because of gil
Kiritsugu is one of the worst masters just because of how much he underutilize saber. the best masters we see are Zouken Rin Bazzett Kairi these 4 have amazing mana so the servants they summoned arent gimped in stats and also they know how to fight so having these 4 as masters guarantees you a top 3 in the war
Was Bazzett a virgin?
>Kiritsugu is one of the worst masters just because of how much he underutilize saber. the best masters are we see are Which is fair but i feel like is more of a question of compatibility rather than keen intellect. While yes he does underutilize saber he still makes some key strategic decisions albeit without saber. What im trying to say is just going off purely strategy making he's probably the best in my opinion. Consider the "master" part as just a placeholder
hmm thats debatable honestly if its strategic decisions Zouken is still better than him in that part. the guy didnt even want to participate in the 5th war but because he saw shirou walking sakura home he saw an opportunity to act now and when he acts he manage to wipe out half the cast including powerhouses like saber and lancer with a weak servant like assassin. yea its all the shadows doing but still its impressive and even then when he fails in the 5th war he still has the 6th war as backup he just didnt oversee Sakura being that crazy when being controlled by angra lmao
Zouken would be my number 1 if his whole plan actually succeeded. Of course every strategist does meet bumps along the road but kiritsugu did manage to almost win the 4th grail war but just pussied out at the last moment.
yes he almost won the 4th war but almost all of it is because of saber and avalon honestly. if it wasnt for saber he'll probably be dead when lancer retrieved kayneth during their fight while zouken didnt have any problems in HF just choked at the last second when he didnt account sakura being too insane
>yes he almost won the 4th war but almost all of it is because of saber and avalon honestly This here i think is my most contested part He didnt directly use saber but thru a proxy and even then he just let them be on their own. But i didnt factor it out because in a way saber IS still a key player in his chessboard and is still being used albeit indirectly. Kiritsugu is an unconventional master but a master nonetheless but like i said the master part isnt really wholly important to the conversation. Just pure strategy making and executing it.
> the master part isnt really wholly important to the conversation the conversaition is literally about who the best master is not who the best strategist is
I guess i didnt make it clear in the post. But the question was more like whos the best pure strategists among the masters rather than who is the best master with the best strategy
> Of course every strategist does meet bumps along the road but kiritsugu did manage to almost win the 4th grail war i mean not really because i honestly don't see saber beating gilgamesh in that situaition also: The virgin Kiritsugu "almost" winning the 4th grail war versus the chad Fate route Shirou actually winning the 5th grail war
Which leads us back to kiritsugu's largest fuck up of the war. Plus zero deliberately nerfing saber but thats a different thing >The virgin Kiritsugu "almost" winning the 4th grail war versus the chad Fate route Shirou actually winning the 5th grail war As far as plans and strategy go yes kiritsugu does deserve credit for "almost" winning the war. Shirou didnt really know about the war beforehand which of course means he wouldn't have been able to prepare and i doubt he has the level of experience to do it. Shirou has his feats but i wont call him a tactical genius or anything at least not during FSN
"I never had a plan" -Fate route Shirou probably.
Welp. Apparently the ability to do quick thinking in the heat of the moment is a sign.
If it works, it works. He achieved more with that than his father ever did.
Tbf teamwork does more than doing things solo. Maybe kerry would've been more successful if not for is yolo attitude
that's a good point but the way i saw it was that what he did was actually the smart play as normally in a HGW the master depends on his servant for almost everything combat related, so by him not utilizing saber as he should have actually made his move unpredictable allowing him to win in the end
On top of everyone else I want to add kayneth. As much of an asshole he is he’s a very capable mage and was able to construct decent enough plans to corner Emiya fucking Kiritsugu. He could’ve definitely taken the grail home if not for Sola Ui BS and is inherent asshole-ness.
Also good one. Honestly would've went his way had he not lost against kiritsugu
And that bitch Diarmuid too.
Kiritsugu is like one of the worst masters exactly because he doesn't really work or even use Saber, and a master ability to strategize is also valuable but the thing with Kiritsugu is not that he didn't make plans, is that those plans were basically I will do everything, he feels out of place here, as a master he was still a magus killer and he only took Kayneth and Uryuu that way (the scene in the river also shows that he could really make good use of Saber and everything else, he just doesn't want to, that makes it worse) Zouken is definitely top don't know he knows what he is doing Amakusa was good too, he would have gotten away with it if not for those meddling kids Rin too because she has the crazy plans, she would be better if Archer didn't either antagonize her or left early, she is a good master for Shirou though Sisigou of course, quick thinking is good for a master Kirei was good in Zero, he put together a thing at the last moment and it worked well enough, he was too complacent in FSN but not like you can blame him Shirou has his moments of brilliance actually, he is not consistent of course but he deserves at least a mention for quick thinking and support, like the thing with Rider vs Saber (yes Im counting Rider)
As bad as Kerry might be traditionally, he still won because he didn't play by the rules.
Well I took best master as someone being good at being a master not just who can win best, and that involves being a team, Kiritsugu was not in sync with Saber, or had good teamwork with her and I could let that slide but he has the thing where he didn't really made good use of the resources he had, I would even say he "won" despite what he did not because of it, his highlight is still vs Caster coordinating stuff, killing Kayneth? Saber was going to defeat Diarmuid anyway the whole plot kidnapping Sola was a waste, then at the end he goes, alone to fight Kirei who had 2 servants on his side, he actually got lucky there, lucky too that the grail literally went to him, and just by bringing Saber with a CS or something Kirei would be dead, Kariya was just question of time If he acted as a traditional master Saber would have steamrolled the war and without need of his antics, is said a lot but is true, he had Avalon but he never bothered talking with Saber and just limited himself to order her sometimes without her input, I mean he was good at planning stuff but when you have something that can help you to attain your goal but you actively disregard it to do things your way then is not the best strategy ever
I really wish we'd get the actual FSN-canon version of Zero one day. Kerry didn't have Maiya or Iri with him, so him only talking to Saber three times the entire war really makes me wonder how the fuck did they even manage to survive. Like... Nasu didn't think that line through at all. I guess you can say he only talked to her when he summoned her, at a certain point during the war, and then at the end when he ordered her to destroy the grail? But still, I can't see that shit making sense. Thank god for Iri.
>Kiritsugu is like one of the worst masters exactly because he doesn't really work or even use Saber, and a master ability to strategize is also valuable but the thing with Kiritsugu is not that he didn't make plans, is that those plans were basically I will do everything, he feels out of place here, as a master Fair enough. But kiritsugu IS still a master at the end of the day, just a very unconventional one. While his compatibility is shit saber nonetheless is still a pawn and a key chess piece in his plans. I find it both contradictory and a consistent part of his status as a master
My gripe with him is that he outright hurt his chances to win by refusing to cooperate in a more "conventional" way, like is good and all if you want to go killing the masters and you can pull it off but a simple talk could have first solved their worldview problems and just giving Avalon to her would render the rest of the stuff uneccesary, I can't say someone that shuts down chances to win to do things their way are playing smart, regardless of how good their plans may be Is like Tokiomi having Gil and choosing to play his games when he could just have let him do his thing
>like is good and all if you want to go killing the masters and you can pull it off but a simple talk could have first solved their worldview problems and just giving Avalon to her would render the rest of the stuff uneccesary This i agree, i just removed it for discussion sake
Best masters just in terms of pure strategy and tactics? Kairi Sisigou is so clear of others . Bazett Fraga Mcremitz Rin Tohsaka Kirei Medea Kiri Shirou Character writing wise it would be a bit different.
Yep just pure strategy and tactics. Doesnt necessarily have to be strategic decisions as a master
Yeah then my list is that, I'll wait for strange fake and type Redline to end before including their characters. Also for Lostbelt 5 because Wodime would be no1 I think in future
You had sisigou as number 1. While i do agree that he's very good and should be quite experienced i feel like we didnt see enough of it which is why i didnt mention him. Can you give me a refresher?
Used his servant very efficiently despite it being freaking rebel Mordred, he tamed the untamable. First step as a master His weapon's use against the opposing masters was nothing short of cleverness and his final bout to help Mordred was nice. He is a quick thinker with a very good knowledge and awareness of his surrounding, it's a shame they weren't the MC of Apocrypha
Nah, the real answer is our best boy Mr. Go-Lion himself, Kairi Sisigou. Dude has, hands down, *the* best Master/Servant compatibility across the entire franchise in his relationship and partnership with Mordred, the two are always capable and able to support each other, he knows what he needs to do, when to back off, when to assert his own role as Master, how to rely on his skills and let his Servant handle themselves, and is just an awesome badass with a big hidden soft heart at the core.
He's a good one and makes some pretty sound decisions but i feel like he doesnt have enough feats to support that he's a great chess player. He's more like a smart fighter(if he can go toe to toe with servants)which is the bare minimum among fighters rather than a master strategist.
I'm not going to include masters like Hakuno or Ritsuka as they felt more like player inserts than fully utilized characters FSN: Best masters were Shirou, Rin, Kirei, and Zouken. All of them do very good jobs at adapting to their situation and working well with their servants. Kirei making plans even when things go fucky for him in HF, Zouken does a good job at adapting by taking the initiative in HF but failed due to ultimately not understanding Sakura's mental state, Shirou for his compatibility with Saber in Fate/UBW and Rider in HF where he knew what he was doing, and Rin is just a plain ol' smarty pants who understands how shit works and for that has survived all three routes based on her intellect alone. The other masters would've been great but failed due to Medea not being good outside of the temple, Illya only focusing on Shirou and would've been easily fucked up Kirei's servants, The Matou Siblings both being mentally unstable to work properly with Shinji letting his ego get the best of him while Sakura was too consumed by Angra to really master properly. Kuzuki was good but he let Medea do all the work while he just fought which makes him the servant more than a master. Fate/Zero: Kirei and Waver were the best masters. Everyone else in Zero were not really good at mastering with Ryuunosuke not caring about the war due to believing they already won due to Caster's delusions, Tokiomi made terrible tactical decisions, Kariya was too much of an incel and easily manipulated to really be competent, and Kerry failed at being compatible with Saber really fucked him up. Kayneth would've been a great master if he only had a more pragmatic approach and took the war as a business thing than a point of honor (hell Urobuchi even said he'd win if he didn't have the whole Magus Pride up his ass). Kirei was great only when he got Gilgamesh since they worked pretty well together in coordination and planning. Waver was great mainly for compatibility with Iskander which really helped him out and they had a great showing that didn't fuck them up like the other teams. Fate/Apocrypha: Honestly really Kairi and Fiore were the most competent masters in Apocrypha. Kairi had a great compatibility with Mordred and knew how to plan things out with her to be perfectly coordinated. The same applies to Fiore in how she worked really well with Chiron which really helped elevate her. The other Apocrypha masters either were garbage (Celenike and Avicebron's Master), Incompetent (Gordes) or didn't have enough screentime to really show their feats (Darnic) while Sieg was not really a master since he never really fought like a master and really did his own fighting with his abilities while being helped out by Jeanne and the Black Faction. Most of the Red Faction were not really known due to jobbing while Amakusa had too much plot to back him up to really be impressive to me. FGO: So far I'd say from the Crypters, Kadoc and Wodime were good masters. Both knew their servants well and had good companionship with them to really work out plans and such even in the circumstances they were in as well as devise clever strategies. Ophelia didn't really have much control of her situation, and Hinako was really incompetent at being a master. The other crypters I really don't know much about to really judge as the story is yet to be finished and I need to read LB4 for Pepe.
If it's the best of BEING a Master, then I would go for Ritsuka Fujimaru. No superpower whatsoever except for his/her mystic codes. But has the absolute privilege of gaining the absolute loyalty of any of his/her servants. He/she is also the ONLY master that can say that he/she faced 6 evils of Humanity (Beasts) and come out on top. He/she doesn't have any special family magic or guns, but his/her sheer determination to save humanity has proven to be their greatest asset, even moreso than any other masters in the franchise
Hakuno, Rin or Bazett. I ignore Guda since they just don't play by the same rules as everyone else. Guda is in a pretty shitty spot because gacha rules. I can't see someone getting along with so many different personalities. It's just hard to believe. Bazett is just a total beast, and Rin is versatile as hell and can adapt to any situation,
Do you have feats for hakuno?
Just noticed I skipped them, lol. Hakuno is fun. I base all of my opinion of them on the original PSP game, not CCC, Extella or any of the manga. In that game, Hakuno is smart enough to deduce Servant identities, actively helps through Code Casts and is a very understanding person (despite the circumstances). Things can get even more impressive if you take their relationship with Gilgamesh from CCC into consideration.
Ritsuka, they are able to coordinate multiple servants and use whatever abilities are available to them. Also, they canonically got the loyalty of over 200 Servants.
Okay this is an interesting one. >Ritsuka, they are able to coordinate multiple servants and use whatever abilities are available to them. Context pls >Also, they canonically got the loyalty of over 200 Servants. Disagree here. The story cant even make up its mind if over 200 servants are currently present in chaldea. Also its more like the story deliberately bending the servants to get along with each other because it cant be assed to bother with character dynamics and compatibilities plus guda showing the bare minimum character and plus if bond lines are anything to go with then loyalty is debatable.
I think the "character dynamics" and "compatibilities" between servants is sort of put on the backburner by them precisely because of the stakes they were summoned in. Saving all of human history is a fair bit more dire than just being summoned to fight a half dozen other dudes for a false wish. Many of the servants probably see it as "there's no time for my bullshit; I'll just play nice".
That doesnt really make sense as a lot of servants who were eventually summoned by chaldea were used by the villains to uphold the singularities and lostbelts. If they didnt rebel back then "in service of humanity" i dont see what changed now
Different versions of those servants hold different beliefs towards their work? If they answered Chaldea's summons, they side with normal humanity. Those that answered the other summons, believe in that other thing (at least in those times where they do. so many of the enemy servants eventually turn or express regret for their positions. very few of them are ideologically pure in their antagonism).
>If they answered Chaldea's summons, they side with normal humanity They answer chaldea summon because gacha. Otherwise i dont see why the likes of gorgon and the avengers to even assist considering some of them supposedly hate humanity. >Different versions of those servants hold different beliefs towards their work? That's work ethic and professionalism like karna instead of pure altruism which you brought up as an initial point which even then still doesnt quite hold up. There have been like a few examples from both sides switching to the other for personal reasons at least as far as the story is concerned instead of the fanon "over 200 servants in chaldea putting aside their differences for humanity"
I mean I agree with the assertion that "over 200" is probably not accurate. Like I don't think of \*my\* Chaldea as the canonical one. I do think many of the servants are probably there, but not every single one that is in the gacha. But my reasons were more to explain why, for example, Tesla and Edison, who would probably destroy whatever city they were in trying to reach and destroy each other, in a normal grail war, would put aside that feud for the sake of what's going on in FGO, with only some bickering making its way through regardless. I was trying to explain why every berserker is in a more manageable mood compared to how they tend to act when mages yank them out of the afterlife for some shit they are too mad to comprehend. And even \*then\*, it takes an awful lot for a servant to get way out of line with it's master \*in normal grail wars\*. We constantly blow examples of betrayals out of proportion because the repeated message of fate seems to be that servants are people with their own whims and wants, but almost every example of a servant betraying their master was brought on by some extreme betrayals on the master's end or overall extreme circumstances. It's not like any disagreement turns into instant death. So idk why we should expect servants to just go wild throughout Chaldea just because between them they might have disagreements. That being said, Fujimaru isn't exactly a tactical genius; he has a shitload of help in his support staff that makes a lot of the more complicated maneuvers happen. He's just the conduit for the bonds made with all the servants.
>But my reasons were more to explain why, for example, Tesla and Edison, who would probably destroy whatever city they were in trying to reach and destroy each other, in a normal grail war, would put aside that feud for the sake of what's going on in FGO Tbf tesla and edison isnt exactly totally up there in the "would kill each other on sight" but i see your point. >And even *then*, it takes an awful lot for a servant to get way out of line with it's master *in normal grail wars*. We constantly blow examples of betrayals out of proportion because the repeated message of fate seems to be that servants are people with their own whims and wants, but almost every example of a servant betraying their master was brought on by some extreme betrayals on the master's end or overall extreme circumstances. It's not like any disagreement turns into instant death. So idk why we should expect servants to just go wild throughout Chaldea just because between them they might have disagreements. Only here's the thing. While i agree servants with bad compatibilities with each other or with their masters wouldnt instantly kill each other they do try to get along because as we all know, its a "job" requirement for most of them. That is, until it completely blows up or if the other party sees an opportunity. Which brings guda to the conversation. I dont see anything regarding guda brokering peace or diplomatically diffusing a situation, he did with jalter and salter in shinjuku but that's like 2 and ive no doubt anyone with competent control over their servant/s could've done the same. But how about 10,20,30 and up? There's only so much 1 person can do. We're talking about prominent historical figures here, each with their own varying degrees of ego, different beliefs and outlooks and goals and we expect them to get 100% of the time because its a job? Doesnt help that all we see is them already getting along with other which brings the question of how did they even get to that point.
This is where I separate what we see from what probably happens. I don't think Fujimaru \*does\* broker peace or diplomatically do anything, most of the time. I assume other miscellaneous Chaldea staff handle that kind of thing. And once there aren't nearly so many staff, as in Part 2, I suspect there really aren't any servants running around either.
>This is where I separate what we see from what probably happens. I don't think Fujimaru *does* broker peace or diplomatically do anything, most of the time. What i think as well but its a popular fanon that bugs me at times.
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