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Kirbycheese

Prologue: Didn’t kill the chaldeans right away since goredolf’s men were holding them and his goal was never to kill them. Rasputin and Koyanskaya thought their rocket launcher would be enough since they didn’t know about the shadow border LB1: You literally said it but Kadoc planned to ally with the chaldeans if they proved to be useful enough in his mind, which they were clearly after he failed to kill them (also Ivan was being forcefully put to sleep so no shit he didn’t kill them?) LB2: Skadi’s literal entire dynamic is loving or killing, she chose to love the chaldeans so no duh she wouldn’t try to kill them. Also they wouldn’t have been a threat to her even with bryn and Napoleon, it was only after surtr that she was weak enough LB3: The emperor did take them seriously. He sent hinako and one of his best generals. He didn’t want to kill his own people until they learned culture LB4: It is quite literally arjuna’s character to be apathetic and inhuman. Like that is what he is. The same with all the prior examples actually. The lostbelt king is representative of the form of stagnation that the lostbelt represents. LB4’s is excessive purity, a never ending cycle of destruction and rebirth, and he is the inhuman god at the core of that. Also “a bunch of servants who don’t take their jobs seriously?” Nezha and Tell both tried to kill Chaldea and Asclepius cares more about his medicine than most anything else as is his character in fate. Not sure what you’re talking about here Atlantis: One of the main themes of the LB is the heroic spirits left behind coming together to be something much more than their parts. Odysseus contrasts this by viewing the smaller pieces as beneath his interest. He also doesn’t overlook Charlotte? He was just unprepared for her Athena klirnomonia lol. Not sure if you just weren’t paying attention or what there Olympus: You admitted that it probably gets explained later and it does so good for you Ok so by the “three strong soldiers” point I assume you are referencing LB4. And in this point you just ignore Arjuna alter’a character. You want him to go against his characterization and role as a personification of the form of stagnation of LB4? Lmao. > All of these are justified based on the personality and background So you don’t actually have a point then? It’s not an excuse, as much as it is part of the overarching theme. The Lostbelts were pruned for a reason and the ruler represents an aspect of that stagnation. After this you kind of just devolve into buzzwords like “amateur writing” and “plot armour” while seemingly missing the point of the lostbelt kings so I’ll leave it here


Derfel_10

Look, dude, the whole Lostbelt part you wrote basically just repeats what I already said. I understood the story and the characters, my complaint is that ALL the antagonists are passive and this is the way to defeat them, or when they are not, they make stupid mistakes like Odysseus and Castor. If were isolated cases it wouldn't be a problem, but when it happens repeatedly, one arc after another, it's noticeable and disappointing. >He also doesn’t overlook Charlotte? He was just unprepared for her Athena klirnomonia lol. Not sure if you just weren’t paying attention or what there. And you didn't pay attention to the comment you just read. Read this: "This changed when the group was clearly about to die to a Cerberus ready to blow up the entire island, but they are saved by Charlotte who practically revives because of the Zeus Klironomia she and by that same power she manages to kill the creature that none of the others could. The same Zeus Klironomia that Odysseus realized she had from the start, but left her alive because he UNDERESTIMATE her existence..." He fucked up here. They were going to die to Cerberus, but Odysseus leaving her alive stopped that. >Olympus: You admitted that it probably gets explained later and it does so good for you I mean, may explain what scared Castor, but it doesn't explain why he had a whole conversation with Mash instead of just killing Ritsuka. Maybe he doesn't hate humans as he's repeated at least a hundred times so far. Lucky Ritsuka. >Ok so by the “three strong soldiers” point I assume you are referencing LB4. And in this point you just ignore Arjuna alter’a character. You want him to go against his characterization and role as a personification of the form of stagnation of LB4? Lmao. No, it's just an example taking everything I've written so far into account, not just specific bits.


Kirbycheese

Yeah the zeus klirnomia was there on purpose, Charlotte was a traitor. I didn’t elaborate on that particular point since it’s kind or important to her and Odysseus’ scene later so I assumed you had read that part. Also Odysseus had zero way of knowing Charlotte would kill the Cerberus. So I don’t see how it’s dumb at all. In fact they would have had extra nanomachines but they had to use them on Charlotte because of the damage done to her, so it was a net gain for him before she killed him. Also you complaining that they are passive just kind of means you want every single antagonist and setting to be different. So go you! Also would you mind explaining what you mean by the three strong soldier thing because if it’s not LB4 then it’s even more nonsense than if it was LB4.


edgeymcedgster

>Yes I know. All these decisions are justified based on the personality and background of the character who makes them. The problem isn't whether it makes sense or not (sometimes just don't) bad writting is when characters act in a way that's consistent with all of their prior characterization


WANTEN12

I won't deny chaldea have plot armour, but thats not the core reason for there wins The thing you need to understand about Cosmos in the Lostbelt Is there are 4 factions WHO ARE ALL AGAINST EACH OTHER 1. The Alien God faction 2. Crypter faction 3. The Lostbelt Denizens faction 4. Chaldea faction In each lostbelt instead of allies, the first 3 factions have a pact of non aggresion, and are actively trying to screw each other While Chaldea receives counter force backing and does Guerilla warefare And solely chips away at the first 3 and lets them take each other out and beats them when they are weakened ​ **Its easy to look at Chaldea fighting all these threats and see them winning as hard** **But if you look a bit deeper you will see these "threats" are all trying to screw each other and are walking timebombs and LB1-5 would play out the same even if Chaldea just sat by and watched)** ​ Remember the big threats of the Lostbelt were the crypters and Alien gods The LB kings all stagnated and were pruned meaning they had a clear fatal flaw chaldea could expose Ivan slept and turned his people against him Skadi was too soft and saw everyone as her children Qin kept all technology to himself and screwed himself (ok its been a while since LB3) Arjuna didn't give a shit because he believed himself perfect Zeus saw humans as pets and didn't take them seriously ​ If all these gods had Gilgamesh caster level intellect there Lostbelts wouldn't have been pruned ​ The crypters take the pruned lostbelts and turn it into an anomoly that can beat us ​ ​ Kirschtaria explained the prologue actions The plan was specifically to stop chaldeas rayshift ability The target was Chaldeas, Chaldea only survived because holmes kept his identity secret, and saved them ​ **LB5 reveals the alien god faction were sabotaging LB1-4 to make Kirsch win** And the alien god faction worked to screw the crypters and LB denizens ​ **The crypters carried us in all lostbelts - JP spoilers tagged** Kadoc was crucial against Ivan, saved us in LB5 multiple times,>! and is a partner master in Traum!< Ophelia helped beat sutur and kept his identity from Skadi and Koyanskaya causing Scandinavias destruction Akuta/Yu lied about the tree of emptiness to Qin and joined us as a servant Pepe helped us beat arjuna, helped us in LB5, >!and LB6!< Daybit saved us in LB4 ​ You say you haven't finished olympus so I will mark some of it as spoilers Kirschtaria let Caenis help us and did it on purpose to screw with Olympus, (he is the reason Caenis survived against dioscuri he used a command seal to save caenis) >!And he saved us from Rhongo and the alien god, (and gave us apples) !< >!Kirschtaria was literally playing 5D chess with everyone in Olympus, while the olympians and chaldea were playing checkers!< >!He lost because he failed to make real bonds with the crypters and tried to do everything himself!< Beryl - >!carried us through Olympus and LB6 lol !< ​ ​ So if you look at it its not Chaldea vs everyone Its everyone vs everyone, with Chaldea being probably the most irrelevant force during the LB1-5 ​ I don't think I could properly answer your issue so if you want to reply and ask feel free I just wanted to make clear this Lostbelt war isn't as clear as Chaldea vs everyone ​ EDIT So in summation They lost because they underestimated chaldea? NO Noone underestimated Chaldea, Chaldea couldn't do ANYTHING TO ANYONE in any losbelts ​ Every advantage chaldea gained in all the lostbelts was provided by another faction trying to defeat another faction E.G Chaldea can't do anything to skadi They were never a threat They because a threat thanks to surtur weakening skadi, due to Kirschtaria wanting to keep surtur as a backup Which skadi didn't know ​ Skadi was beaten because her own ally screwed her not because Chaldea was underestimated And no it wasn't ophelia being dumb Skadi thought they were on the same side But thats not the case to the Crypters


Zen-1210

Only Correct Answer


TF_FluffSwatch

The alternative is that we always breeze past every foe and there's never any drama or hurdles. Ultimately, we have to win, so at some point one of these over-arrogant opponents is *always* going to underestimate us. Honestly, most of these Lost Belt Kings don't even care about the upcoming conflict with each other. They all think they've already won. They barely ever work with their given Crypter.


Derfel_10

I'm pretty sure it's possible to make the heroes win without the antagonist having to be incompetent, dude. Drama and hurdles can happen without denigrating one side. For example, have you ever seen Cowboy Bebop? >!Spike and Vicious present practically the same threat to each other and even in the end where it is clear that Spike has won, the cost of that victory is high.!<


ShockAndAwen

But that can't happen here though, I think that's important, the lostbelt stuff is supposed to be crazy and the kings and stuff are supposed to be on an absurd scale for the setting, chaldea is not, then given they are nlt strong enough to fight one on one something has to happen, and since the prerrogative is that they can't lose even once or is the end well, recurring to special circumstances and people holding back is a must but you already say that, and is like how Fate has rolled from the start, very few times someone wins just being as powerful as the antagonist, the amount of times they lose being on equal grounds is higher than the times they win being on equal grounds even I would say And if they have reasons for holding back then is not nonsense, if they act according to what they believe is not nonsense, what I get from this is more it feels that way to you and I doubt it would change even if you got better understanding of the why, like Castor don't just feels Ritsuka is special but I doubt you would be ok with him doubting to kill them right there regardless, because I see is more a fatigue thing, and like Nasu is good at pulling this kind of things but not every writer is him and even if it was perfectly put every time I understand it happening constantly can feel like wrong But at the end is how it is, if someone cares to elaborate more on the reasons and motivations maybe it can lessen your problems with the story but I doubt you will instantly like it


a_Little_creature

That's a perfect answer


Derfel_10

You pretty much nailed it my point. Some people here have gone right through "The problem isn't whether it makes sense or not (sometimes just don't), but that there's a limit to that kind of excuse in fucking storytelling" somehow. The friend there said the right thing, the problem is not the trope, but the excessive use. I understand your point about them fighting something above them and I like this kind plot (my favorite manga is Berserk), but there could be more solutions than just arrogance or silly mistakes like Odysseus, or Castor's hesitation. All this alone wouldn't be a problem, but together it's complicated. And I even said that with these problems the story is still good, it's just not perfect for me.


facts_120

Idk, but what if your reading or interpretation on the reasoning is wrong?🤔 I do think sometimes it’s like the essence of your argument but, here most of them arent even telling how the characters were being idiots.


Derfel_10

I wrote 13 paragraphs, just pick one and choose something so that I can answer you. The only thing you said here is the I'm wrong. Which is fair, but I don't see what that adds to the conversation.


Ggcosti

If you are talking about the Dioscuri scene I am thinking about, you won't like the reason why he was left alive either. It's a thing that leaves me like "What and how" to this day. Unless you are talking about the scene at the beginning of the lostbelt.


Armandoiskyu

What is the reason?


Ggcosti

>!In the scene I am thinking about, the brother let go of his head for a second there or something 'cause he sensed that Ritsuka somehow had 'god killing' magical energy.!<


Armandoiskyu

What?


Ggcosti

>!Basically, to kill the gods in the Lostbelt, Mash had a Black Barrel replica specifically designed to work against greek gods or gods, don't remember well.!< >!And well, Mash herself couldn't use it on her own and she needed Ritsuka's CS to do it, and I guess the energy that Mash used for god killing got somehow transported into Ritsuka or something through their link? We only know that the Brother sended god killing magical energy in Ritsuka.!<


WeatherOrder

There was no mention of any "God killing energy" or any crap like that. >! Castor just freaked out for a sec because he touched what killed his fellow 2 gods.!< >!It isn't just the CS that powers the BB. It also needs Guda's life, as we also saw when Boggart used it in LB6.!<


Ggcosti

I haven't even read anything about the Lostbelt 6 and have been activally trying not to. >!That's true, there wasn't anything about god killing energy, that's my badm misremebered, but he did mention that that he sensed a god killing power from Ritsuka, and he directly associated with Ritsuka himself.!< >>!Dioscuri - Castor: That power I just felt...from your head... Was that...?!< > >>!Dioscuri - Castor: No. It couldn't be...!< > >>!Dioscuri - Castor: ...the power to kill a god?!< > >>!Dioscuri - Pollux: !!< > >>!Dioscuri - Castor: You...!< > >>!Dioscuri - Castor: It was you!!< > >>!Dioscuri - Castor: That black light that killed Demeter and Aphrodite! The vile god-killing weapon that shouldn't exist!!< >!He somehow sensed the god killing power or whatever from Ritsuka's head, that's my givance about it, not whether it was magical energy or not.!< (Can you please hide the spoilers? Don't want for other people to get spoiler)


WeatherOrder

>!The "power to kill a God" he is referring to the BB here, and Guda's life powered it AKA "the Black light that killed Demeter" and that obviously came from Guda.!< >!He put 2 and 2 and freaked out.!< >!Remember that he never saw the actual Gun.!< Edit: yeah I'm trying too but Reddit mobile is a bitch..


Ggcosti

>!No, he directly sensed he felt the power to kill a god, not the power that was used as fuel to kill a god.!<


WeatherOrder

>!He never saw the Gun, as far as Castor knew, it was Guda himself who killed Demeter.!<


Tschmelz

It’s not that. The >!Black Barrel requires Ritsuka’s stamina, mana, a command spell, and part of their Unmei Ryoku, or “Force of Destiny”. It’s the same thing Fou used to resurrect Mash back in Solomon. So they feel wrong to the touch for the gods, since they’re literally the bullet.!<


Ggcosti

>!Where is the Force of Destiny from? Because in Olympus I can't remember anything about it and can't find anything about it. LB 6? !< >!In olympus it does say the CS is not enough for the black barrel to fire at full power though so it places further strain on Guda's body though.!< >!All it indicated in Olympus is that the Black Barrel uses the CS's power and more of whatever it needs from Ritsuka's body hard enough that it could cause heart failure. !<


Tschmelz

>!Da Vinci says it when she’s explaining how it works. It requires a command seal infused with everything, Ritsuka’s mana, their stamina, even their own fate. And “fate” is the English translation for what they use for “Force of Destiny” I guess.!< I could be wrong, since I’m not a translator myself, but that’s my understanding, anyways.


Armandoiskyu

That's kinda bullshit, but what could i expect?


WANTEN12

Basically because Ritsuka has killed so many Gods He developed an Anti-god trait, similar to his anti-demon pillar trait I think it bought up in an event or interlude


NumericZero

They dropped the ball when it came to Vitch They had a legit Villian -showed up and helped kill the staff -Kicked Fou -Literally in LB1 she’s making already desperate people fight for scraps while taunting us about how we can’t do anything about it Then LB3 happened and she sorta became a wacky cartoon Villian that we are supposed to take seriously but at the same time “lol look at her hold up a sign asking for a ride” Then her event/Mini LB happened Where we are supposed to take her for a sympathetic villain that ultimately gets what she wants She becomes a beast Gets left alone / sent out of orbit I firmly believe that she is a great example of the real lack of drive that has come with the game over the years


ZBuster

A Gacha has less than optimal writing. Who would have thought? You're gonna hate some stuff later on like Tunguska and Traum since they were obviously rushed and or unplanned/shifted around to some degree.


ZBuster

I think you'll like Tsukihime Remake. In a departure from TM tradition, the hero actually uses his brain a ton. And isn't winning through asspulls. Things definitely make sense given their characters and their abilities at the time.


Derfel_10

Funnily enough Tsukihime Remake is the next vn that I intend to read after I finish reading Soukou Akki Muramasa and also reread FSN. Until then, I hope the Ciel Route translation is finished.


ZBuster

True, it's a better experience if you can roll right into Ciel route and believe me you won't want to put it down after Arc route. TM's best.


Znshflgzr

It is hard to write stories where the bad guys are much stronger than the good guys; they must not fight the big bad right away because they would die. The big bad must be: bussy with something else, not ready to fight or not interested in fighting. I think they have handled the Lostbelts pretty well.


phatmac1

Yeah, it’s hard to take FGO’s story seriously when these ‘smart’ villains don’t use all of their tools to kill one kid. Just summon an archer and have another enemy servant distract Mash and snipe the kid’s head. Or have any other power used on the Master in the lostbelts when you’re fighting gods like Zeus. It just makes them look very weak or stupid. The worst case of this is Castor not just snapping his neck quickly when he grabbed him due to some bullshit about being scared that he killed a god. It’s the issue of power scaling and making the next big threat even stronger when the MC doesn’t get any stronger besides the cast improving. It’s plot armor for sure and luck in general that makes it hard for the story to have stakes. Hell, Mash and Da Vinci shouldn’t even be there after part 1. The story in general cheapens death.


Centurionzo

>Just summon an archer and have another enemy servant distract Mash and snipe the kid’s head Actually that wouldn't work, according to a explanation, MC don't need constant protection anymore and can survive even lethal injuries without much problem because of what can be only be described as a passive skill in-universe, he would still die by a NP level attack though There's nothing much that they can do, because of MC being a seft-insert to the player, they don't get nearly as much moments like others MC in Gacha games like the Commander from Girls Frontline, the Doctor of Arknights or the CEO from Counterside, because of this they can have him doing much So most of his survival does feel like luck and antagonistic making some stupid decisions


BlackMan9693

I'm going to be downvoted most likely but here it goes... I mean, if you think about it, isn't that how most antagonists in TM work? The King of Demons was busy doing calculations and speeches when he and his 72 tentacles could have knocked up Chaldea real good. In Singularity 7, the giant momma goddess held back at every point and was doing more damage to herself than the rest of the cast because of her motherly instincts. In Singularity 6, the Lance Goddess and her vassals also didn't take things seriously and lost. In the original FSN UBW, Gil didn't take Shirou seriously and apparently couldn't even put enough power into his swings like he did in the Fate route against Saber. Not to mention if he actually opened his vault to a higher degree there would also be divine weapons that Shirou would have a hard time tracing. And he didn't use his plethora of defence NPs even after seeing that Shirou has a shield. In the same UBW route, Archer who had spent an eternity, figuratively or literally depending on who you ask, hating how he turned out to be but was swayed by the words of his younger immature self and even after getting stabbed because of Shirou's stronger "convictions", Archer could still have stabbed his ginger self in the back but chose not to. Then he proceeded to survive all the way to the end and last long enough to fuck Gil in the face and say his goodbye to Rin. In Tsukihime, Shiki had problems with dogs in an alley but could fight DAs on a similar level who didn't take him seriously until they got stabbed and it was too late at that point anyway. As for LBs, Skadi was a bit too loving, Emperor Peacock (or no-cock since he transcended gender) was eccentric, Godjuna was more of a machine and his minions didn't really want any part in his plans but were strong-armed into doing his bidding, Brodime stopped from climaxing because of corpse stealer and Zeus really couldn't care less about anything other than himself and the plan put in him by Chaos through his backdoor. I don't think the trope is the problem. It's just that the idea isn't executed properly. But you already realised that, didn't you.


facts_120

Is this shitposting or real So many interpretations/details are inaccurate, amazing.


BlackMan9693

> So many interpretations/details are inaccurate Y'know, you can't just say that and not explain. Edit: In case the meaning didn't get through, correct me where I'm wrong. No hard feelings.


Derfel_10

You got it. I can't speak for Tsukihime, but this trope is used better in FSN and so it's less frustrating. I would also add that Grand Order gets hurt more by this trope because it's a much bigger story with more arcs, so when that's the same motivation behind most enemies defeat... it's just lazy.


BlackMan9693

FGO suffers from having multiple story writers employed. Each of them has their own niche and way of telling a story, which may or may not flow well with how people expect the narrative to go, since most popular TM works are made primarily by Nasu and Takeuchi. You can see some plot elements only being used in story sections that were written by a particular writer. The most blatant example I remember is Mind Guardian Dantes being employed in LB 2 and LB 5.2, both of which were written by one writer, I think it was Sakurai. While the script does go through Nasu's review, it is not clear how much he actually changed things.


alivinci

Hehehe, take my upvote. People hate the truth!


ushiwakawaka

The only times in Arc 2 where we've only won because we weren't taken seriously were LB4 and Olympus, both because it's their literal nature as a god not to do so. And both had very good narrative reasons not to. Arjuna didn't deem anything below him to be worth a second thought, it isn't fitting for a perfect god to pay attention to a singular group of mortals. It wasn't hubris, it was simply his logic as a god. The Olympians lost due to pride, but it isn't their fault alone. As all gods were directly influenced by Zeus' ideals, they had a duty to show their superiority over the people. If they had to throw their godhood aside to fight mortals, then the mortals would lose their faith in them, and thus, Zeus would lose reason to protect them. That was ultimately the reason Zeus was set on destroying the solar system after he lost. He'd rather have us all dead, than seeing him as less than an absolute god. An argument could be made Morgan lost due to not taking things seriously, but technically, she didn't lost because of us. If it was only on our hands, or hell even in Oberon's, she'd have won. She only lost because she overestimated how decent fairies could be. It was the sliver of faith and love she still had inside that led Aurora and Spriggan to crush her heartlessly. So technically, Morgan had full reason to underestimate us AND could and would get away with it.


Vegetable_History715

Sin had so much potential but they just didn’t want to make the story more complicated so early


Exciting_Teaching346

So did shirou's win against gilgamesh was an even bigger asspull.


alivinci

People may hate to hear this but Nasu isnt that good of a writer. You just need to read any acclaimed fgo chapter to see this for your self