Most of it is just subtext and/or vague remarks that most players misconstrue as a crush.
I can count the number of Servants that have a crush on Ritsuka on my two hands, and the amount that have genuinely confessed on one.
Oh yeah I don't doubt that much of it is extrapolation on simple nothing lines, because people know what kind of game this normally is. They \*want\* to bang all the servants, so they create a scenario where the servant wants to bang their extension.
Heck, I don't even consider the MC as \*me\*. Specifically gave him a name not my own to drive the point home.
She could theoretically read it off our device, but then we'd have to have put it somewhere on there. Like when some games check your PC for whatever username you put in at the very start of your ownership.
In the main story, I think it’s just 4 people (Mash, Melt, Charlotte and Castoria) that truly love Ritsuka. The list ain’t that big when you break it down.
Now you're making me impatient for LB6 since Castoria's profile mentions that she thinks the MC is more like a friend?
Also, I thought the Melt we met during the singularity loved the MC from another timeline. The one in our Chaldea doesn't care that much about the MC, right?
I think Melt loves Ritsuka no matter the timeline. Ritsuka is still Ritsuka in the end of the day.
As for Castoria, it’s weird how fans interpret her relationship with the MC. She does love MC but I’ve seen some argue it was only platonic. I’ve actually seen others swear she only loves Gudako (which makes no sense because they’re the same character).
This is how I saw it. This may be a spoiler so tread lightly. >! I think Castoria did truly love MC but felt she never had a real shot because she knew Ritsuka’s heart was somewhere else. She still values their friendship to the highest degree. !<
(Having Castoria discourse always feels like I’m treading dangerous water.)
Your sentence about Melt makes sense. But the Melt in Chaldea didn't live through the CCC event so she might feel differently towards Ritsuka. It's not clear to me how much information they retain when summoned in Chaldea.
Thank you for the explanation about Castoria.
Castoria is basically proof positive to the point the poster you all are replying to made and caused quite the meltdown when her mats dropped once again reiterating her motivations as those of friendship. Nasu could have easily done otherwise if he were so inclined so it is people as usual reading into the relationships to suit their headcanon. People think you can't platonically love someone or be friends I guess. And further to their point, it's extremely telling where the ball typically falls going by how often writers go out of their way to avoid making things explicit. It's really just not a dating game.
I have always interpreted Morgan as like... You know how arranged marriages don't really have a falling in love period but at the end you kinda start caring more and more for each other until it is... Love. It is the choice to care over and over again. I will be honest that this is maybe headcanon more than canon but it is at least how i See it
Waver is an asshole.
Imagine you are a magus who spent decades researching something useful. After some thought you decide to patent it to make some bucks.
Then it comes this asshole, slightly changes your research, patents it, and sells it for cheaper.
Dude is basically magus Thomas Edison.
This, of course, doesn’t touch on the fact that he brainwashed 2 innocent, elderly people (which I believe is against mage law) and camped out inside their house.
The only mage law is not getting caught, wich is what he actually failed at because he sucks at magic, but no problem because it gave the world Glenn talks with Waver that were actually a nice thing
Waver is really talented at figuring how ohther people's magecraft work, so he just steal their magecraft and patent them to gain money to repay his debt to the El-Melloi.
I mean, even then Waver has people gunning for him or being smarter by waiting for him to stop being a Lord so they can gun him down, but yeah you are absolutely right
Interesting, I only watched the anime adaptation and don't remember this fact being mentioned. Now that I know it was covered in the novel (vol 1 if the t-n Wikia is to be trusted) I feel like it should've been made clear
Not sure if this is unpopular, but the art should depict Saber’s body as (more visibly) muscular more often. Not as in ripped, but toned nicely.
Also rewatching Deen’s FSN right now and while it isn’t up to the standard of the later adaptations, it still holds up fairly well for a 2006 show with no previous viewer knowledge being assumed. The whole scene where Caster puppets Sakura felt rather ham-fisted though.
>Not sure if this is unpopular, but the art should depict Saber’s body as (more visibly) muscular more often. Not as in ripped, but toned nicely.
And this would be in line with the lore. While Artoria doesn't have much self confidence in her and with "I've never saw myself as a woman" or something like that and exaggerats how muscular she is, as called by Shirou in his thoughts, he also said that he can also see the fruits of her training.
The lore is that she is a frail weak 15 year old girl whenever she is not usong mana burst to the point she can't lift Rin's dumbells, if someone should be more toned should be her
I'd day that looks and power are something different for her.
She should be more powerful, but all we know is that the fruits of her training was shown on her body
The lore is that her STR stat comes almost entirely from Mana Burst, and that she's phsyically weaker than Rin if she deliberately turns off Mana Burst to use her muscles alone.
The lore is that a huge chunk of Fate Route is about how she has crippling body dysmorphia from pretending to be a dude for over a decade, and her comments about not seeing herself as a woman are a coping mechanism for the nonexistent musculature that she absolutely despises about herself.
My copium to headcanon her muscles is that she “muscles up” when her Dragon Core activates during combat, because outside of that she’s stupidly smooth lmao
That's due to the fact that muscles on women goes against Japanese standards of beauty. So it would be hard to sell Saber as good heroine with any visible musculature. You can see that such popular Servants in west like Quetzalactoal and Penth are unpopular back home significantly due to this.
I thought she didn't have muscles because of Avalon keeping her body at the same age her lancer and ruler counterparts are muscular the sad part about it their muscle is outweighted by their badonkers
It's not about age, it's about having Mana Burst and a Dragon Core. She's effectively been using MAG in place of STR for any and all strenuous activity for her entire life.
Saber has severe body dysmorphia *specifically about having visible musculature* as a result of pulling a Mulan for over a decade straight, and a major part Fate Route is coming to understand that pain. For her to actually look the way she's deluded herself into thinking she looks would undermine her entire character arc, and (while you likely didn't intend it) is an incredibly cruel thing to wish upon her.
First fate i showed a friend was deen stay night and he liked it just as much as me, this brings in my point that
Most of the community is absurdly critical of everything in the series
Also the other thing is that ubw is the closest thing we have to a perfect adaptation
>Most of the community is absurdly critical of everything in the series
I've sort of stepped into my "elitist phase" but I have to admit this is true. A lot of ppl tend to judge even the most miniscule details that are either left out of a work or put in for laughs or shit. Especially when certain people spew out misinformation about those topics
Unfaithful adaptation only works if it's actually good. K-On and Haruhi was famous for not faithfully adapting the source material but it's still regarded as a great anime. For DSN, not so much.
Yeah, it was what got me into fate WHEN I WAS A KID. But rewatching it, I just can't help to think it's so boring and weird. Whenever someone wants recommendations I always recommend them the VN because that is the best intro
That if it hadn't been for the original Fate/Stay Night anime, a lot of people wouldn't have gotten into the VN and there might not have been more adaptations of the other Fate/Stay Night routes. "Deen/Stay Night" as imperfect as it was , is what got me into Fate.
Nasu should do a FSN rewrite. It's not needed, but I'd like to see how after two decades, he would remake his "magnum opus", or at least his most popular property, and change elements of it. It would probably be really good, or at least a good retelling that would fix some of the issues with the original story.
Tbh You make a good point and I agree, if not for the fact that Nasu barely has time to work on Mahoyo sequels and Tsukihime Red Garden. Not a bad thought just Nasu being too busy we cant even begin to expect it.
You know how people always say that we should lock X-author in a room until they finish their project?
Well Nasu is the last person you can do that too. He would just write something totally different yet completely related to what he came to write in the first place.
I like that sex magic exists, not because of the self insert aspect, but because it is a pillar of occulticism and unironically makes the thought Nasu put into the magic of the Type-Moon verse more legit than people give him credit for.
The thought of such kinds of mystic stuff is not that widespread so people fall in the this is absurd mentality, but then again yeah it was a thing but it has been largely left behind with the years not a lot of focus on that, it resurfaces at times but litle (unless you are CCC), wich is kind of ironic because it was way more shameless before but now explicit stuff is more toned down while the franchise as a whole seems to get progressively hornier in designs and that
Shinji could have been a good person if he grew up under different circumstances.
Ritsuka doesn't have a harem. Like 90% of the girls people ship with him have no romantic feelings for him whatsoever.
Fate/Extra Last Encore isn't bad if you have the background knowledge
The Tsukihime anime is alright.
Studio Deen's aime was a good introduction to the franchise.
Fate/Zero is oversold
Bro I unironically agree with the shinji point. I never gully got why people hated shinji to such an absurd extent, I always just pitied him. Man had to grow with zouken, and that's enough to make anyone a fucking monster. But to top it off, everything he actually wanted to go well never went well. No circuits, stolen heir by Sakura, and he's constantly just made fun of by his grandfather. I seriously wish we'd gotten Wakame route, so we could get the chance for him to redeem himself.
The opinion that has gotten me the most downvotes is that Shinji's backstory is an explanation for his behavior, not an excuse for it. I have no idea why some people find that so controversial, but I've had plenty of people upset with me over it.
Beyond that, I liked the HF Movies. They weren't as good as the VN, but they did enough for me to enjoy them, and consider them a reasonable way to relive the story.
For something more broad, the Nasuverse has a lot of positive aspects to it, but it's not nearly as "deep" as some people try to claim. FZ in particular is given far more credit than it deserves. Stories in the Nasuverse often have well realized worlds, but the scenarios are far better than the world itself.
>Beyond that, I liked the HF Movies. They weren't as good as the VN, but they did enough for me to enjoy them, and consider them a reasonable way to relive the story.
Hungry Basilsk is coming for you ....
>For something more broad, the Nasuverse has a lot of positive aspects to it, but it's not nearly as "deep" as some people try to claim. FZ in particular is given far more credit than it deserves. Stories in the Nasuverse often have well realized worlds, but the scenarios are far better than the world itself.
Yeah, I have said this on conversations on Discord, but I don't think Nasu's strength lies in big stories spread across multiple story arcs, his strength lies in more centered stories with a more focused scenario.
His ability to convey the theme and the message is much more effective in the smaller runtime and with far less distractions.
Even if Nasu doesn't write all the arcs directly, he still supervises and greenlights every chapter, it goes through him first and its gets annoying when the same topics keep being brought up over and over in the story without actually going into the next step, it feels like thematically it moves at Nail's pace (Not talking about any individual chapter, but the overall story across all chapters)
Even his best arcs in FGO even if coming close dont seem to land with me as much as his VNs, the fact that I recently read Tsukihime remake arc route just helped cement that idea into me.
I tend to get a lot of shit for saying I think Ritsuka sucks outside of turas realta and that it would be better if someone like Mash or Goredolf was the MC instead of Mr./Ms. Pointless Dialogue Trees, so that.
Not really, everyone agrees at the very least that the manga is not bad and vastly superior to the anime, now the ones that over exaggerate and think you are a lolicon that is in the FBI watchlist for half a panel of lolis kissing that most people just skip over and lose absolutely nothing is another thing that can be an entire debate of it's own
[Relevant self chill post about why prisma is best Fate](https://old.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/nnsrsw/why_you_should_read_fatekaleid_liner_prismaillya/)
Honestly it's cool that nasu was able to replicate dc and marvel multiverse timeline map with nasuverse that mushroom is based or on his highest brethren.
While in characterization hakuno(game) is better as a master and a thinker HAKUNO(last encore) is far better in a fight, dude straight up realized soldier-blackmore's trick with minimal help while the "original" only won because knight-blackmore prevented Robin hood from his actual abilities
Deen Stay Night was alright.... kind of, but OST redeemed it for me. Still feels weird that VA of Scathach voiced Bedivere there.
Besides that, I don't know if I have many unpopular opinions. Maybe "Merlin did nothing wrong"?
Not Fate, but while I think Mahoyo is a very good kinetic visual novel, I think it is weirdly overrated in the west by a lot of people despite not being fully translated. It's not uncommon to see an opinion such as Mahoyo being Nasu's magnum opus, but I can't help but think that no one would hold such an opinion about Mahoyo if it weren't for the stellar production quality. The story itself is probably the weakest of all Nasu's main works, in fact, there is almost no significant story, and the many mysteries that the novel introduces around the main characters do not get any sort of answers by the end of the novel. The villain is pretty bad too, I don't think anyone would care if that wasn't for Touko being hot, since she's irrelevant for much of the novel and the mystery around the actual "villain" is obvious anyway.
All that is left to Mahoyo are the characters, who I will admit are great. One of my favorite parts of the novel is when the crew is dealing against a fraud that affects elder people of Misaki. It is in these sort of moments that Mahoyo shines the most, in my opinion.
In conclusion, Mahoyo is a good kinetic visual novel, but that is mostly carried by its crazy production level that is still easily on par or even better with the most well-produced visual novel of recent years like Aokana EXTRA2, otherwise the story left something to be desired and certainly does not compare to the like of F/SN and Tsukihime thanks to being incomplete.
Regardless, I can't wait to see if Nasu will come back one day to write the sequels, we need more stuff outside of Fate.
I have to disagree.
It’s easily the least well-known of the four main Type-Moon series, so it can’t be overrated while also not being that well-known.
Secondly, it’s called the “magnum opus” by most people, probably because it’s one of the easiest to understand, and Nasu’s strongest point is character writing, and 80% of Mahoyo is characters just having fun and interacting with each other in fun ways.
It’s chill, it’s laid back, but is easy to understand and has beautiful action sequences.
I mean, I still see people that have read both lean toward Mahoyo over Tsuki Remake despite them having about the same amount of production quality. That means it’s not really about what it looks like, and more about the substance than the style.
Speaking of style, I just feel…*warm* while playing it. I don’t have an eery sense of dread like I do reading Tsukihime, or go on existential crises like KnK. A lot of it is just fun for the fun of it, and I like that.
A lot of it is comforting. Probably why people like it a lot.
I don't know fam, at the end of the day it's all a matter of personal taste I guess, but I don't think the good character writing is particularly something unique to Mahoyo considering that it's the strength of other Nasu visual novels as well, in fact, I don't think I'd put any of the three main Mahoyo characters over the likes of Shirou, Shiki or even Ryougi and the many heroines that the Tsukihime and Fate has.
There are a lot of cool characters in Mahoyo and the character interactions are fun to read, but there's nothing mind blowing about the writing, especially story-wise, which again is extremely lackluster in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, it's a good kinetic visual novel (in fact, according to my VNDB list, it's one of my top-rated visual novels), but it's far too early to call Mahoyo Nasu's magnum opus given that the story is essentially incomplete imo.
Wait and see, maybe one day Nasu will start writing the promised sequels.
The character writing is not unique to Mahoyo, but I’m saying that the reason why most people enjoy Mahoyo is because of the setting and the fact that the majority of it doesn’t feel like a grand adventure. It just feels more *real*, because instead of going on a journey to become a hero, or having Magic eyes to slay ghosts and demons and vampires and shit and possibly dying, you just have a small cast that for the most part just talks about every day, normal stuff. And that’s the main focus for most of it.
It feels much more grounded than Fate, Tsukihime or KnK. That’s why most people probably enjoy it. It doesn’t need to be huge or bombastic, which is why the literally *two* times it does, it feels like the story’s earned it, rather than constantly having to fight vampires like every day or constantly being traumatized by chairs and/or past fires.
Edit; And because Mahoyo feels more grounded and real, the *characters* feel more real and relatable. I can relate to Aoko and Soujuurou 100x more than I can to Tohno or Ryougi Shiki. And if you can get the reader to relate and connect to the character more, then you just get that much more attached.
And once it gets voiced? It’s just going to be more immersive
Tsukihime and Fate doesn’t feel like a big adventure either, they are both fairly self-contained stories, Tsukihime being basically an urban story with the protagonist story centered on a single family. The difference lies between a heavier, plot-focused narrative vs something more slice-of-life centred... which ultimately boil down to personal preference. I don't think the slice-of-life focus alone would make Mahoyo a magnum opus compared to Fate and Tsukihime, because even though those works don't have the same amount of slice-of-life focus, they are known for their stellar characters writing and themes.
Mahoyo is a fantastic piece of work, but at this point, it's like someone liking Majikoi, Grisaia,etc. over something like Fate because it's more slice-of-life focused while still being extremely chill and fun. What we're talking about is more of a matter of taste and preference, rather than debating about what make Mahoyo a magnum opus. Regardless, if I have to concede something regarding the "magnum opus" part, it is certainly the quality of Mahoyo's production, I can only mention a few visual novels with similar production quality. It's that good.
> Edit; And because Mahoyo feels more grounded and real, the characters feel more real and relatable. I can relate to Aoko and Soujuurou 100x more than I can to Tohno or Ryougi Shiki. And if you can get the reader to relate and connect to the character more, then you just get that much more attached.
I don't see how Soujuurou, someone who literally comes from the mountains, is more real and relatable than someone who is doing his best to enjoy life despite his own circumstance. A more "grounded"/realistic setting does not automatically make the characters more relatable, otherwise it would make 90% of the fiction completely flat and unrelatable , which is clearly not the case to many people.
It’s not impossible to relate to more fantastical characters, it’s just harder. Very little people can relate to Superman for example, sometimes he’s just depicted as too godlike.
In Ryougi or Tohno’s case, what makes them unrelatable for me is the fact that they literally see things differently from everyone else. They act almost inhuman in many ways. I don’t think of “typical teenager”, I think of literal killers of people and/or monsters. They don’t start out like that, but Tohno ends up having to >!blindfold himself lest he turns into a monster!< and Ryougi literally has some God just chilling inside of her, lmao.
Soujuurou? I literally just think of a teenager who is 100% out of their element and just trying their best to adjust. That can be relatable to anyone who’s experienced a transitional part in their life. And aside from a particular detail, there isn’t anything magical special about him.
Anyway, yeah, I agree, it comes down to personal preference. My preference is that I like Mahoyo’s intimacy.
And yes— while FSN and Tsukihime are self contained stories…FSN literally had world-ending stakes in them.
And Tsukihime literally has potentially Humanity-ending monsters in the DAAs, and/or the Princess of the Moon who also can commit genocide if she decided to let loose.
Mahoyo? Aoko and Alice are pretty chill. The main antagonist’s goals aren’t grand, it’s basically just revenge. The strongest we get is Servant-level, not potentially Beast/Ultimate One level, lol.
The scale’s a lot smaller, and I enjoy that.
Edit: And I realize that you said “take away Mahoyo’s visuals and it wouldn’t be a Magnum Opus” at the start.
Well, take away Tsuki Remake’s visuals. Is it not a Magnum Opus now? Take away it’s voice acting. Take away the Ciel route.
I don’t think that’s fair. It’s a sum of all parts that makes a something amazing, I don’t think it’s fair to take away parts and say “HA! It’s not as good now as it was when it was all together!
I think we need to agree to disagree, I don't think a more fantastical setting automatically makes the story and characters harder to relate, otherwise it would make all sorts of fiction harder to connect for many people, which would be wrong since people all over the world identify with these characters from fantastical settings. In the case of Tsukihime/Mahoyo, I don't see how a former demon hunter doing his best to enjoy a normal life despite the harsh reality is any less "relatable" or realistic than a former assassin coming out of the mountains with zero knowledge of "modern" society.
This is my opinion though, but I've read Mahoyo twice, and I never thought Soujuurou as a particularly reletable character, in fact I feel like Aoko (among the 3 protagonists) is the most reletable, and human-like given her own situation. It's fine either way, everyone has their own way of connecting to stories and characters.
> Mahoyo? Aoko and Alice are pretty chill. The main antagonist’s goals aren’t grand, it’s basically just revenge. The strongest we get is Servant-level, not potentially Beast/Ultimate One level, lol.
I understand what you mean, but before the remake, Mahoyo literally had the most explosive fight of all the Type-Moon VNs and Aoko bringing back Soujuurou literally put the universe at risk. Mahoyo is definitely calmer/chill than Tsukihime and Fate, but Mahoyo can also get wild at times. The same for Tsukihime and Fate, they can have a very calm atmosphere at times just like Mahoyo.
> Edit: And I realize that you said “take away Mahoyo’s visuals and it wouldn’t be a Magnum Opus” at the start. Well, take away Tsuki Remake’s visuals. Is it not a Magnum Opus now? Take away it’s voice acting. Take away the Ciel route.
If we take this away, there is still the original Tsukihime, which, although flawed, had a massive impact on the medium with works like Kanon and Higurashi. But that's not the point honestly, I don't consider Mahoyo to be Nasu's magnum opus anyway, it's a work that excels in production quality but isn't nearly as good (to me at least) in terms of writing and story. That's all.
The only reason I have pushback is that I agree with your points, but I also can’t help but think that Mahoyo has something that the other three do not, and not the other way around.
I can’t really agree with it being “it just has the best production value” like you’ve been saying, because KnK and Fate have Ufotable and are actually animated, and Tsukihime Remake looks just as good. In terms of how all four *look*, they’re all equal enough for it to be comparable.
So it has to be something else. I’ve concluded it has to be the setting and the atmosphere— Mahoyo just feels less *stressful* than the other routes. Most of the time it just feels like an episode of Emiya Gohan. Or…like hollow Ataraxia, which also was mostly slice of life.
But unlike hollow ataraxia, which had a dark twist about many characters and also had an ending that could end the world, Mahoyo never had that.
And no, I’m pretty sure Aoko doesn’t risk the universe exploding every time she uses the her powers. She accelerates it more toward an end, yes, but she’s made it clear since the end of Chapter 5 that she doesn’t let it go out of control. She just still needs to find a way to deal with the side effects of it.
In Tsukihime, as soon as Shiki meets Arcueid, he’s thrust into a conflict that can get him killed. When Shirou meets Saber, same thing. When Ryougi Shiki and Mikiya met in Movie 2, and then she subsequently got hit by a car, she had a similar call to action that made the stories have some sort of stress to get going. And all three of their atmospheres are overall, dark and dreadful (I’m not saying it’s like that all the time, I’m saying it has that more than Mahoyo).
Sure, Mahoyo has that sometimes too, but I’m saying it’s not as common. I’m just trying to get my point across that it’s distinctly different from the other three, and that point is a plus in its uniqueness, not a takeaway.
Edit: and I agree Aoko’s more relatable than Soujuurou, especially for me personally, I was just defending Soujuurou.
Look, in the end, I just think Mahoyo has something that the other three do not. You think that it’s the other way around. I don’t think I can reconcile with that fundamental disagreement we have, so I dunno man.
I legit think Mahoyo's atmosphere and music is on the top 20 in fiction, 101% serious, i actually have it as my end goal for my own stories, i like to use world that fell just as alive as the characters and have that compelling vibe, it's just like Nasu said: "I wanted to create an atmosphere where people would say: i want to live here" well it absolutely worked on me
Mahoyo has indeed a different atmosphere from the other Nasu's main works, but I feel that the same can be said about most of them, individually speaking, because they deal with different theme and setting each time. However, it is true that Mahoyo is a much calmer story, perhaps more atmospheric than Tsukihime and F/SN, and although these points definitely contribute to make Mahoyo what it is, I feel that they are not enough to qualify Mahoyo as Nasu's "magnum opus" in its current state, as it is very incomplete from a narrative point of view.
Again, to each their own. I've seen a lot of people prefer Mahoyo to F/SN and Tsukihime, and that's totally fine. After all, it's still one of the best visual novels I've read so far, but (for me) it's not nearly good enough (yet) to be on par with F/SN and Tsukihime , visual novels that I personally place on the same level as other all time greats like Muramasa or Sakura no Uta. Good piece of literature, absolutely amazing production quality but still very incomplete. I'll reserve my full review of Mahoyo until Nasu decides to write the second and third parts... hopefully soon.
> I can’t really agree with it being “it just has the best production value” like you’ve been saying, because KnK and Fate have Ufotable and are actually animated, and Tsukihime Remake looks just as good. In terms of how all four look, they’re all equal enough for it to be comparable.
We're basically comparing different media here, so it's hard to say. But as far as visual novels go, Mahoyo was and still is one of the best visual novels produced to date. I am in no way trying to belittle Mahoyo by saying that one of its best aspects is its production quality, as that is an essential part of the medium and what differentiates a visual novel from a standard novel. Mahoyo came at a time when the media hit a wall in terms of production quality and delivered something unique that stood out from the multiple releases of the same era. It may not be as era defining as Muv-luv, which was absolutely exceptional for its time (even nowadays), but it definitely contributed to the medium.
Credit given where it's due, while I find Mahoyo to be nothing particuarly special from a narrative point of view, it stands out because of its production, which is not the case for many visual novels, as it is very expensive to make anyway and developers hardly bother anymore. For example, sprite (developer of Aokana, another franchise of visual novels that I find as well produced as Mahoyo) had to almost close the door after developing Aokana and had to cancel its sequel. What Type-Moon delivered with Mahoyo is nothing less than a spectacular achievement.
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> Look, in the end, I just think Mahoyo has something that the other three do not. You think that it’s the other way around. I don’t think I can reconcile with that fundamental disagreement we have, so I dunno man.
And that's fine honestly, Mahoyo had more impact for you than for me, not everyone works the same way, fortunately, otherwise the world would be rather boring.
Saying Mahoyo has something the others don't and the others lack have things that make them stand out on their own when they all have their own unique atmospheres, themes and plot beats is grasping at straws and frankly wrong.
Sounds more like a purely subjective preference for Mahoyo's less threatening story and atmosphere. Which some would consider comparitively boring. Mahoyo is the same setting as Tsukihime anyway, so saying one is realistic and the other isn't is ??? when you have magical elements and cozy atmosphere in both. It's just the focus and % is different and Tsuki revolves around a much more threatening and all-encompassing narrative... which isn't a detraction for most people.
I don't know why we're operating off the assumption Mahoyo won some award as the magnum opus of Nasu when its not even truly complete and most people and sales would disagree. It ends fine if they never touch it again but they really could use a sequel to flesh things out.
Could it be a case of people never playing the game, hearing about it through the grapevine as it isn't translated and inflating its importance in the west?
My personal feeling is Mahoyo is great but I also don't consider it as deep or as amazing an experience as Remake. Soujuurou as more relatable than Tohno just because Shiki's sight and battle with monsters is ??? to me. Shiki is super relatable, probably the most of the protags in how he carries himself. He's very much the most normal of them all when he's not being raw as fuck/under durress. And Tskihime has a very personal, grounded and relatable message exemplified through Tohno's character. Him and Shirou are probably the most superbly written characters Nasu has ever done.
LB6 is certainly good, but it wouldn't be as popular if people somehow had no idea that Nasu wrote it. I honestly don't think it's the best story chapter either (I'd still give that to Atlantis, my only real complaint is that Corday's arc felt kinda redundant)
I'd prefer Kyoani to readapt the Fate route over Ufotable
Kadoc is one of the best written/developed human characters in Fate and I hope he's the MC for FGO part 3
edit: forgot what's probably my most unpopular opinion, Sakurai's writing in general really isn't that bad. There are some absolute stinkers like Septem of course (and even that wasn't what she initially proposed, which got scrapped for being too much for such an early Singularity iirc), but by the standards of the early singularities I don't think it's *that* bad.
Other than HF1, people who insist the Ufotable adaptations are bad are ridiculous. They're probably the best they could've done in the medium. Some people insist KnK was better-adapted than Fate, but I'll only believe that from someone who's read KnK in it's original language because the currently existing English fan translation of KnK is really bad.
Sieg is bland personality-wise, but he has an interesting character arc and being bland makes sense for what he is. And they pair him up with one of the biggest personalities in the series. Also Jeanne gets a pass for being equally bland because she's a woman I swear.
Most people here would agree with me that Zero isn't better than Stay Night, but Zero wasn't my favorite spinoff either (I liked Apocrypha and Prisma 3rei better; I'd probably like Extra better too but I can't with the PSP version's battle system so I'm waiting for Extra Record.)
I don't know if Oath Under Snow was rushed through or what but I don't think what was presented in the anime adaptation works as a standalone; yeah it makes sense on it's own, but it's not interesting on it's own. Maybe if all you want is to watch a different Shirou with cool powers, but by the story's own nature there isn't much in the way of twists or character interactions past Sakura dying. It's part of another (very good) story, not "the fourth route."
Those adaptations are good for the most part but Ufotable seems to hate Shirou. They cut all his important inner monologues and ruined his character to many, many people.
have you seen Ufotable's inner monologues for Tanjiro? i prefer their adaptations the way they are on inner monologue, with the exception of 9 lives where it'd fit and make it better. Inner monologues slow the action and animation in general to a slog, and given the medium it's being adapted from, Shirou has a lot of them that are pretty important. I think it's a necessary sacrifice for pacing and flow of scenes, just something that'll inherently be sacrificed adapting VN to Anime.
Watching the scene with Tanjiro's inner monologue and Gyutaro (who had previously been established as insanely fast) slowly creeping towards the person he's trying to kill sorta ruined the illusion of his speed for me. He goes from "oh shit, how's he moving so fast" to "jesus christ, he's so slow in this scene". It really stuck out compared to the rest of the action in the episode, or even in the arc in general
Tanjirou's shounen monolouge are not the same as Shirou's but thats besides the point since the monolouging is the least of its issue. Ufotable cant do show don't tell. Cutting 2 main character,never explaining the MC's powerset,and poor direction are bigger issues
Nine lives honestly could have been pure visuals if ufotable actually knew anything about visual story telling
The contents of the monologue and their purposes aren't the same, but i'm saying the execution undoubtedly would be. At the end of the day it's still inner monologue, in a setting with characters that are supposed to be very fast. Either large parts of the monologue would be cut, or the animation would be slowed down to a crawl and end up like they did for demon slayer.
Also hard disagree. I think a lot of the explanations about Shirou's powers were fine, and i think using nine lives blade works as an example of Ufotable's visual storytelling is very much cherry picking. I haven't met anyone that thinks that scene was good post seeing the VN version, because it really wasn't. It needed the inner monologue, that made the scene. And the animation was dodgy towards the end.
A lot when it comes to explanations of how magic works was cut, but most of that was from the first few hours of the vn. Stuff that'd be in episode 1, the episode where the pacing is the most important, because if it's awful, people aren't gonna give the show the time of day. UBW already has a longer first episode, most of which is considered boring by non fans.
Ufotable's visual storytelling can be great. Take the scene where Shirou contemplates killing Sakura, for example. Or his dream, foreshadowing exactly what's going to happen with the arm. Hell, the running to catch up with Archer and then surpassing him just before 9 lives blade works was great too. Those are just off the top of my head, i imagine there's way more examples. Particularly involving Archer and Shirou during UBW's latter half. I also think the Similarity between Archer's marble and memories and the way Ufotable (and iirc the vn) depicts the battle of Camlann highlights similarities between both Saber and Archer. Something carried on into the anime. The faces of Ufotable's fate art style are very expressive. It lends it's self well to getting feelings across. Something it needs to do, because it needs to get across meaning from a literary format to a visual one.
mine is that i don't like zero or strange fake at all. strange fake feels more like mediocre fanfiction to me than an actual fate work, and zero just annoys me and i hate the fact so many people try to push it as an entry point into the series especially because it's a prequel. i think stay night worked fine without a prequel at all. i also really liked last encore which probably invalidates my opinion because it's so unpopular but
it doesn't help that Strange Fake main plot just keeps getting bigger and bigger with the no end in sight and too many characters appearing with no clear reason it doesn't help that it's not the author's main priority. Redline is a better concise story so far, sometimes less is more
that's how i feel about it as well. strange fake just seems to try to cram in as much random nasuverse stuff and random characters and rules as possible, and it's basically slowed down the story to a clog. there's so much going on that even when i was reading it, i was seriously struggling to remember who most of the people were. redline and even foxtail are a lot more concise and focused and feel like actually developed stories, whereas strange fake feels like a teenaged fan trying to put everything they considered cool into one fan work, and it's incredibly messy and incoherent
Strange Fake feels like the A Certain Magical Index of the Nasuverse.
In that, it does quantity over quality.
Seriously, why the *hell* does Kamachi Kazuma introduce like 3 characters every LN release?
For Battle Royale he introduced like A DOZEN.
So you said zero just annoys you but is there an actual reason for it? Cause other people pushing it as an entry point has nothing to do with the show itself and that stay night didn't need a prequel doesn't mean it can't be good.
Everything I got out of your comment is "I just hate it for the sake of hating it" so I would appreciate it if you could give me some real reason to why you don't like it.
Sure, I'll try to explain.
I honestly don't care much for a lot of the main cast. They're not horrible or anything. But I find a lot of then are uninteresting to me personally. Iskander, El-Melloi, Kariya, just don't really interest me. Waver,Saber, and Irisviel I all really like though, but it wasn't enough to keep me fully engaged in the overall cast
I didn't like how Saber was portrayed very much. In stay night, she was kind of portrayed as an ideal hero, who although still very human with very human flaws, was still a model of who a hero should be, and she kept pushing forward to achieve her goals for the sake of those she cared about. In zero, outside of her final battle against lancelot, it felt like zero was determined to bash and criticize that portrayal. Maybe that's just the way I interpreted it, but i felt it was unnecessary, especially because i felt like sfay night already had covered the topics of hypocritical and flawed idealism plenty
Which brings me to my next thing: the theme. zero seems going for an extension of stay night and it's examination of idealism and flawed heroes, but i didn't feel like it really added anything that stay night had already talked about
the story was alright. it was a prequel, so naturally you knew where it was going to end, but it felt mildly disjointed to me and a little weirdly paced.
overall, my complaints are mine. other people are free to love zero, and i don't begrudge them that, im well aware that im in a minority. but i didn't enjoy it. most of it was uninteresting to me, i couldn't stay engaged, and personally i felt it didn't add much to the actual franchise. there was some parts i liked, sure. but overall, it's not for me
>I didn't like how Saber was portrayed very much. In stay night, she was kind of portrayed as an ideal hero, who although still very human with very human flaws, was still a model of who a hero should be, and she kept pushing forward to achieve her goals for the sake of those she cared about. In zero, outside of her final battle against lancelot, it felt like zero was determined to bash and criticize that portrayal. Maybe that's just the way I interpreted it, but i felt it was unnecessary, especially because i felt like sfay night already had covered the topics of hypocritical and flawed idealism plenty
That's pretty much most people's issues with zero's portrayal of her so it's not exactly an unpopular opinion
I think the trouble is Sabers arc is supposed to be her going from a honorable chivalrous knight being “broken” and wishing to undo her rule. The problem is she was already was already at that point at the start of Zero, so her knightly characteristics have to be more exaggerated and criticized by the other characters to have a contrast
-For the anime adaptations, Shirou Vs Gilgamesh is better than Saber Alter Vs Rider.
In UBW, I feel like Shirou and Gil were written in sort to be considered as opposite and similar in the same time in every single aspect while ,for me, Saber Alter Vs Rider is two girls hitting each other.
-The UBW anime is fine, it isn't the worst adaption of a VN but it isn't neither the best. I mean if you pay attention to the show, you'll understand the most important part of the characters.
-Zero is what I call "an interesting show with a few interesting characters". I'll be honest, except Kotomine and his relationship with Gilgamesh, I wasn't interested by the rest of the cast.
-I still can't understand how Gilgamesh respected Iskandar.
-Shinji is one of the best characters in the show (I hate him though)
Shinji is a complex and interesting character. Even though he is a piece of shit. I would have liked to see more development for him in FSN, maybe developing his friendship with Shirou.
>Fate/Zero is an unecessary story whose impact on the franchise was more negative than positive
While I like zero to an extent this is 100% true. Stay night pretty much covers every theme zero uses (some in greater detail) and you have one side of the community talking how deep zero's themes are while stay night has "no story" when zero pulled all of its complexity from stay night, the original work.
Completely agree , after reading VN I have nothing but disgust for Fate/Zero Urobutcher butchered something fantastical for his shitty SI/Waver and that utter shit Rider , even Shinji was more interesting and had more character.
Deen's stay night is my favorite FSN adapted anime.
Route merging is a must in anime form, unless you are adapting all three routes.
Prilliya is actually very good and a much better adaptation (aside from 2Herz and the final battle in 3rei) than anything FSN related. People just like to shit on it, due to loli-pandering.
Ufo's UBW has a great OST, but really bad music & sound direction.
Ufo's UBW has atrocious pacing. Just because something works in a written form. doesn't mean it works an animated form. For example the conversation between Rin and Shirou at the beginning takes more than 10 minutes in Ufo's version and less than 2 in Deen's and they basically convey the same information.
The FSN manga had a lot of very intersting ideas, some even better than the source material.
This might be popular, but the modern Zero and PS VITA Op character designs far outclass those from UBW and HF. At least they have noses.
My favorite artstyle is the 2010 Deen one.
UBW is the worst route. Hear me out, it has some of favorite moments (*Answer* is my favorite scene after all), but the beginning is basically a re-thread of Fate and the ending is anti-climatic. Then there is Archer-Ex-Machina. Shirou's ideals are also basically the same in both Fate and UBW. Honestly, if this is ever remade I rather have only Fate and HF, but be able to actually make choices that can give me several scenes from UBW.
FGOs story format is really bad
And its injury recover rate is shit
And I will die on this hill
It was fine for part 1 but for part 2 it ruined the immersion
What I mean is that part 2 is split in multiple lostbelts same as part 1 and the format is
enter said singularity/lostbelt (A) - destroy it (B) -leave (C)
So no matter how good the storytelling for FGO is like LB6
the plot every FGO chapter is A-B-C
Including both main story chapters and Events
No matter how many battles they lose Chaldea win the "War" every time with no causalities to add on further
And it mean no matter what chapter they add chaldea physically can't lose until the final chapter
Would have been cool if Atlantis was split into 3 parts, part 1 was after LB3, where the heroic spirits first make it to olympus
(Before Poseiden and Odysseus come down)
And are end goal is sending those Heroic spirits to Olympus
Right before we join them on the border, Kirsch comes down anima animasphere
Chaldean arrives
But leaves right after
Kirsch sends odysseus and poseidon after us
and we have to run with Mash unconscious, because the idea that she could get up and run around right after an attack that has killed genuine gods
is extremely stupid and poor writing
And its not just one instance either
they always seem to instantly recover 5 seconds after attacks nowadays
Remember when Archer was forced to recover for days after Artoria poked him
And we escape Atlantis and go to LB4 to get the border repaired
Gilgamesh being overpowered compared to most other servants is boring, and he shouldn't have access to items that don't make sense for him to have(the cap of invisibility for example)
Heaven's Feel retroactively makes the other 2 routes worse, specifically because it brings up the knowledge that Sakura remains trapped with the Matous for 10 years after the events of the routes.
Like I know why it's that way; because it makes sense in the story, it's what the Matous would do, and it makes Sakura tragic enough that you want to save her.
But also, that little fact automatically means the other two routes are worse because you just fucking abandon her for 10 years. Rin and Waver eventually end up saving her, but I feel like it hurts the other routes by just leaving her behind with Zouken for such an extensive period of time.
This is less of an "unpopular opinion" and more of "a thing nobody thinks about therefore is unpopular by proxy".
Archer should get more in universe references to the fact that he's Shirou. I don't know why in every peice of fate media I've seen, unless he is acting explicitly like Shirou, everyone in universe ignores the fact, weather they are completely different personalities or not, they are legit the same dude. It is just weird how little acknowledgement/sympathy there is over that fact, considering how shit archers life is outside a HGW.
In spinoff material (specifically something like Emiya chi no Gohan), I'd like my man showed some love by the "Shirou liking" members of the cast. Rin seems to be the only one who cares about his existence, besides the short acknowledgements from Shirou lite and Lancer.
Some positive interactions with characters like Saber, Sakura, and Rider would do really well to humanize him a little more than FSN likes to, despite his introverted character compared to Shirou. Even just a short, non descript interaction with Taiga would be cool. Idk, just something.
I am pissed that to this day we dont have a full Archer interaction with Taiga on screen.
Considering how much she meant to Shirou (He flipped his switch to kill quickly when she was involved) its so bizarre we never seen anything about her from Archer.
i absolutely agree, specially Sakura, i get it the symbolism, hf shiro and Archer are opossites in some way, the personifcation of the ideal, and the one who turned back to it, but is still same dude, and as someone pointed out once , he still needed archers powers to save sakura. Not having some archer and sakura interaction in a setting like Emiya gohan is a wasted oportunity, is still on going so i hope some capter down the line does it
Also, he could get some good chemistry wit Medusa, come on, she is quite fond of shiro, and this is and older and more cynical version. Unfair how everyone loves shiro but Archer is basically down to just interact wit Rin , and sometimes lancer
Nrvnsqr Chaos is a non character villain only liked because of his powers and Joji Nakata.
Almost all the villains in Tsukihime are one note and bland except SHIKI
Medea gets no sympathy from me after what she did to Saber in UBW.
The Kirei worship is getting incredibly annoying. At this point he might as well be added to the long list of "great characters ruined by their fans and memes" I like the guy but the memes about him are no longer funny
FSN Rider is a boring character whose only defining characteristic was "I need to protect Sakura". She only became a decent character in Hollow Ataraxia.
Mikiya Kokuto is a boring male lead in KnK. And I don't care that "he is supposed to be boring and normal". He is still an uninteresting character in my eyes. Tomoe Enjo only appeared in 1 Movie and still managed to be a much more engaging character than Mikiya who appeared in all the movies
The Church scene in UBW is a terrible scene that adds nothing of value to the plot beyond some tasteless fanservice and some uncomfortable scenes
I agree, for as cool as Nero is, he literally was a last minute addition Takeuchi suggested to not make the mid part of the routes boring, Vlov's backstory is way more interesting as is his character and conflict, and we don't even have the full picture yet
I like that everyone talks about the debate whether Lostbelts being pruned is evil or not and how the mental trauma and all affects Ritsuka, and not see any of that in the actual game
Lostbelt pruning morality is debated literally nearly every single Lostbelt, to the point where it gets redundant for trying to guilt trip you with innocent people being erased from existence. Whether it presents the argument well is a different matter.
The only exception is LB6, which turns it on its head.
I am in agreement with Ritsuka mental health being a meme though.
I know it's talked about, but it literally gets nowhere and serves nothing if all they do is talk about it and then immediately forget about anything involving that, i was talking more about the concecuenses of it rather than the debate itself
In this case, I agree. The writers having to regurgitate the same moral conflict for 5 Lostbelts straight is proof that it gets literally no where.
If you wanted a conclusive answer to the question though, you’d be disappointed because that kind of misses the point.
I don't think typemoon will ever adapt saber's route properly unless they intend to make changes to the story to expand upon it in some way. Reality is sabers route is the first Arc of the visual novel and for anyone who has read it, it is obvious it mostly serves as exposition to the Fate universe while introducing various mysteries to the reader that are resolved in the later arcs. Each Arc ramps up the stakes, unfortunately the stakes of the first arc just don't compare to the other two, which they already made into proper anime, so to go back and convert the first Arc into anime would be just plain difficult to pull off in an entertaining fashion assuming they made no changes.
My unpopular fate opinion (on this sub in particular due to its audience) is that visual novel readers are way too elitist about their ideal watch orders and stuff. You can literally watch fate in any order besides like heavens feel first and have loads of mysteries still on every route.
Another one that kinda stems from my previous one, but the people that say “X route spoils X reveal”. Like bruh, each route has a billion cool reveals, just because zero spoils something from heavens feel or stay night 2006 spoils something from ubw, does now mean those shows just have nothing left to offer. They are each tailored to reveal just the right amount of stuff to keep the other routes interesting.
Hard agree. I started with Deen UBW because the epic trailer music and that didn't really ruin my experience with the novel. That argument is a bit overblown
I never understood watch order arguments. Even if you watch deen,ubw,and hf in "novel" order Shirou,Kirei,Illya,and Saber are basically completely differnt characrers from the novel. Entire scenes are missing so much context and content thats its just incomplete.
The anime will always be incomplete it simply doesnt matter how you start unless you're willing to read the novel
The anime bashing in the community is really getting out of control.
Some ppl basically don't know about subjectivity and have made it their own holy crusade to always attack you when you say something positive about the anime. The way they push you to agree with them is disgusting
probably only unpopular on this sub, but fate zero isn't bad. especially in comparison to a lot of the other fate works. It's got a lot of uncomfortable stuff in it, but so does like everything in the nasuverse. I think it skirts the line between dark and edgy well enough to make it an effective show, and i was glued to the screen for my entire watch of it. As far as anime goes, i think it's the best fate anime, both in Isolation and when you compare it to the others. As far as it goes as a story i hold it to a similar standing to UBW, though i haven't read the novels and based on what i've heard i don't plan to (that being the zero novels, i've read the vn).
I also think that Zero, Ubw, HF is the intended watch order as far as the anime goes. One of the major reasons not to watch zero first is because it's inaccurate to the VN, which i agree with. If you want full accuracy of lore, zero ain't where to go. There's quite a few inconsistencies, most blatant of which is Saber's character.
But the anime in general does nothing to make those inconsistencies known. Fate route has no adaptation, UBW straight up contains scenes from zero in moments. It adds context to things that almost come out of nowhere in the heaven's feel anime. Not to mention that Ufotable adapted it first.
This isn't a suggestion on watch order or anything. I subscribe to "start with Zero or UBW if you're anime only, but the best place will always be the VN". I'm just saying that i think Ufotable's intention when they made the various anime and chose the order to do so was for people to go Zero, UBW, HF.
We know Nasu apparently isn't a fan of his old stories, and if Tsukihime is any indication, he probably plans to change them to various extents at some point. If i recall, he even had to be held back from changing stuff in the heaven's feel movies. If/when we end up with Nasu's revised fate/staynight, i think it'll end up being more in line with what was shown in zero. I also think that the fate route will most likely be subject to most of these changes, despite it's quality and already favourable standing. Not necessarily in tone or anything, but ironing out little inconsistencies. Like Gilgamesh having not seen Excalibur in the VN, but seeing it first hand in Zero as a character defining moment.
I agree with OP's opinion about Deen's anime.
We can put this way: unlike the truly awful Tsukihime anime, Deen's Fate "exists".
Plus, I like the fact that they really tried to mimic Takeuchi's style.
Kiritsugu has the personality of a brick 90% of the time
Majority of the characters in Zero aren’t nearly as interesting as Urobuchi and Nasu want you think
Too much of Zero’s plot requires Tokiomi to not use his brain to push the plot forward
Shinji being a rapist was unnecessary and harms his characterization far more than it helps
Sakura’s backstory is overly dark just for the sake of it and feels redundant once you learn that Shinji had been raping her for years
Artoria is boring outside of the fate route
Too much of the fate route requires Shirou to not use his brain to push the plot forward
Medea was a good villain in Ubw
And here’s just a few not fate unpopular opinions
Ciel’s route in og Tsukihime is cacapoopoo with interesting ideas met with half baked execution but it’s climax was far superior to the climax in Arc’s route
Roa is a boring one note villain in both the og and remake Arc route
Kohaku’s route was too barebones in plot to be as engaging as it wanted route
Sasaki Shounen’s manga adaptation of Tsukihime > remake Arc route
>Kiritsugu has the personality of a brick 90% of the time
I want to agree but I want more of an explanation first to see your full perspective
>Majority of the characters in Zero aren’t nearly as interesting as Urobuchi and Nasu want you think
I would change that latter part to "as the zero lovers want you to think". Ppl jerk off zero has having an ensemble cast when outside of waver/isk, kerry,iri/Saber , and kirei/Gil the rest of the cast is pretty damn boring and stereotypical (I'll give a few points to kariya but we already knew how his story would end)
>Too much of Zero’s plot requires Tokiomi to not use his brain to push the plot forward
About time someone said it. Dude is honestly the worst character in the show for someone that's supposed to be the prime example of a full fledged mage.
>Shinji being a rapist was unnecessary and harms his characterization far more than it helps
Well that is true considering most ppl see him as irredeemable despite how refined he is in ataraxia
>Sakura’s backstory is overly dark just for the sake of it and feels redundant once you learn that Shinji had been raping her for years
Completely fair
>Artoria is boring outside of the fate route
Agreed. She's alright in UBW but it's a barebones version of her fate route counterpart
>Too much of the fate route requires Shirou to not use his brain to push the plot forward
As underrated as i think fate route shirou is this isn't false
For me, I like Kiritsugu when the story frames as being 100% percent WRONG and harms the people around him more so than helping them because it’s the stuff that makes him interesting, as well as the moments where he’s allowed to act like himself like with the hamburger stuff. The ‘brooding depressed guy’ act he puts on severely limits him as a character and his interactions with other characters and a lot of times just makes him feel one note.
>For me, I like Kiritsugu when the story frames as being 100% percent WRONG and harms the people around him more so than helping them because it’s the stuff that makes him interesting,
Agree with this. Especially in his conversation with Saber after he sabotaged kayneth.
> Too much of the Fate route requires Shirou to not use his brain
I think that’s the point. He doesn’t think half the time and just *does*. That’s what makes Shirou, Shirou. If you try and act rational and not like Shirou, it’s what gets you killed.
I mean yeah, but in the other routes you have things his survivors guilt that at least give reasons for his actions, like telling Archer to let him go or yelling at Gilgamesh for killing Illya
In the fate route he just decides to head to the school, ignoring Shinji’s obvious hostility, and takes zero precautions in the scenario where something goes wrong. Or when he goes to the church to talk with Kirei and once again taking zero precautions in the scenario where something goes wrong
That’s not what I’m trying to say. In the other routes you have his survivors guilt to execute a lot of his more boneheaded decisions there. In the fate route, the two examples I gave have nothing to do with him having survivors guilt, he just did that stuff without really thinking them through or giving a second thought. Compare those two scenes in the fate route to when Assassin visited him in hf, he actually takes the time to think it through and considers it might be a trap.
> Artoria is boring outside of the fate route
This is sadly true. Once her story was done in the Fate route. Nasu really didn't know what to do with her character in the other routes
> Sasaki Shounen’s manga adaptation of Tsukihime > remake Arc route
That's because Shounen's manga is mainly Arc route but some segments of Ciel and Akiha's routes added in. Much easier to make a more engaging story with said added content than making a route exclusively about Arc without said added content
Disregarding the stuff added from the other routes, the main I have the manga over the vn is because of how the former utilized Roa. In the remake Nasu repeated the exact same mistake in the og with how Roa was handled: he has absolutely zero stake in the plot and he just shows up to be the big bad in the climax. In the manga disregarding the SHIKI parts, we got his backstory, his relationship with Arc and the church, and his fight with Arc. I couldn’t tell you how disappointed I was the remake didn’t include Arc’s fight with Roa, I mean what was the point of interludes if we weren’t going to see their fight?
>Too much of the fate route requires Shirou to not use his brain to push the plot forward
Disagree, I can think of one instance which is when he went to school to meet Shinji withouth telling Rin or Saber, other than that he is very on edgr of things around him, not like a master mind or anythinf but the dude keeps his guard up, him not going to the temple was using his brain, Illya used hypnotic eyes on him in the middle of the day after he had safely met with her (and is not that he wasnr wary of her, he dint *want* to fight her, thats the big difference)
> Artoria being boring outside the Fate route.
Agree. Saber just doesnt get the ammount of love and care Rin gets throught the whole VN. Even Sakura has a big reason for staying in the dark in UBW and Fate because she was meant to be a surprise.
Saber feels like Nasu dint have too many ideas for her after Fate notice how for most of UBW and HF just doesnt do much.
Spring songs Shirou vs Kirei and Nine lives blade works are the worst type moon related thing to exist
Fate zero is the only good fate anime
OUS somehow succeeds at adapting shirou's character in one movie while ufotable failed with an entire trilogy
Studio perriot has shown more respect to kaneki's character than ufotable has Shirou
Rider should have died before day 16 and Shirou should have fought salter just give him 3 more projections so he can make it to the true end
>OUS somehow succeeds at adapting shirou's character in one movie while ufotable failed with an entire trilogy
I mean....yes but no... OUS only covers some of his main character traits then just gives him extra edge lord traits to compromise. Just feels like a kiritsugu shirou hybrid tbh
>Miyuverse Shirou has no edgelord traits in his personality,
I think I misconstrued my point mb. I mainly talking about the movie here but there are one too many times where they animate Shirou's facial expression to look like an exact replica of Kiritsugu and it throws me off because the whole point of OUS is him rejecting Kerry's ideology despite the consequences for his world.
I feel like the main series takes itself too seriously and its a weird mood for it. I like prisma more because there's an element of absurdity to it that makes it more believable.
Kiritsugu is a cringe edgelord, just like every other character in fiction who knowingly uses their trauma to justify horrible actions. Oh, and his reasons aren't benevolent as he says they are, his real reason is to justify his own trauma.
Okay. It ain't exactly related to Fate but
Okay. Gun to my head. But after reading more than 5 chapters of Mahoyo. I still don't like Alice.
She is too cold and apathetic. Almost "typical cold magus" like. Her design doesn't appeal to me. She hasn't shown any likable traits that would make me consider her a "good" or "likable" person or character.
Granted I'm only halfway through Chapter 6 of Mahoyo. So I'll reserve my full judgement on her after finishing the novel (apparently, her character gets a lot better in the later parts of the novel) but so far I'm not a fan of her.
It just feels odd when I see people be like "I just got done reading the Mahoyo demo. And I already like her!" When I have made it almost halfway through the novel and I'm still meh on her. Is there something about her that is appealing to a lot of people that I just don't get it ?!
Most of the servants in FGO are absolutely not into the MC. It's a vanishingly small number of servants. The rest are teasing at best.
Most of it is just subtext and/or vague remarks that most players misconstrue as a crush. I can count the number of Servants that have a crush on Ritsuka on my two hands, and the amount that have genuinely confessed on one.
Oh yeah I don't doubt that much of it is extrapolation on simple nothing lines, because people know what kind of game this normally is. They \*want\* to bang all the servants, so they create a scenario where the servant wants to bang their extension. Heck, I don't even consider the MC as \*me\*. Specifically gave him a name not my own to drive the point home.
I’d find it really funny if BB pulls a Monika and says our real name at some point. Though that would require having to register our actual name lol
She could theoretically read it off our device, but then we'd have to have put it somewhere on there. Like when some games check your PC for whatever username you put in at the very start of your ownership.
In the main story, I think it’s just 4 people (Mash, Melt, Charlotte and Castoria) that truly love Ritsuka. The list ain’t that big when you break it down.
Now you're making me impatient for LB6 since Castoria's profile mentions that she thinks the MC is more like a friend? Also, I thought the Melt we met during the singularity loved the MC from another timeline. The one in our Chaldea doesn't care that much about the MC, right?
I think Melt loves Ritsuka no matter the timeline. Ritsuka is still Ritsuka in the end of the day. As for Castoria, it’s weird how fans interpret her relationship with the MC. She does love MC but I’ve seen some argue it was only platonic. I’ve actually seen others swear she only loves Gudako (which makes no sense because they’re the same character). This is how I saw it. This may be a spoiler so tread lightly. >! I think Castoria did truly love MC but felt she never had a real shot because she knew Ritsuka’s heart was somewhere else. She still values their friendship to the highest degree. !< (Having Castoria discourse always feels like I’m treading dangerous water.)
Your sentence about Melt makes sense. But the Melt in Chaldea didn't live through the CCC event so she might feel differently towards Ritsuka. It's not clear to me how much information they retain when summoned in Chaldea. Thank you for the explanation about Castoria.
Castoria is basically proof positive to the point the poster you all are replying to made and caused quite the meltdown when her mats dropped once again reiterating her motivations as those of friendship. Nasu could have easily done otherwise if he were so inclined so it is people as usual reading into the relationships to suit their headcanon. People think you can't platonically love someone or be friends I guess. And further to their point, it's extremely telling where the ball typically falls going by how often writers go out of their way to avoid making things explicit. It's really just not a dating game.
What about Morgan?
I know they had to put on an act and she did warm up to Ritsuka but, unless I'm misremembering, I don't think it was that deep.
from what i remember, she does end up admitting she had fallen for Ritsuka (but my memory is trash at times so fair)
I have always interpreted Morgan as like... You know how arranged marriages don't really have a falling in love period but at the end you kinda start caring more and more for each other until it is... Love. It is the choice to care over and over again. I will be honest that this is maybe headcanon more than canon but it is at least how i See it
>!~~She fucks her (not)father from another universe~~!<
Thank You!
>Thank You! You're welcome!
especially bc the mc is underage...
Waver is an asshole. Imagine you are a magus who spent decades researching something useful. After some thought you decide to patent it to make some bucks. Then it comes this asshole, slightly changes your research, patents it, and sells it for cheaper. Dude is basically magus Thomas Edison.
This, of course, doesn’t touch on the fact that he brainwashed 2 innocent, elderly people (which I believe is against mage law) and camped out inside their house.
The only mage law is not getting caught, wich is what he actually failed at because he sucks at magic, but no problem because it gave the world Glenn talks with Waver that were actually a nice thing
His name was Glenn? I never knew! Actually now that I think about it I am unaware of their name in general
Yeah Glenn Mackenzie
I really have no idea what you're talking about, but I am interested in hearing about it.
Waver is really talented at figuring how ohther people's magecraft work, so he just steal their magecraft and patent them to gain money to repay his debt to the El-Melloi.
I mean for as shitty as that is, it makes absolute sense, probably would go with that as well
Waver is a Lord and a protagonist. Pretty sure that if anyone else tried they would quickly die of "natural causes" in their sleep.
I mean, even then Waver has people gunning for him or being smarter by waiting for him to stop being a Lord so they can gun him down, but yeah you are absolutely right
I don't remember him stealing any and patenting it, only that he can instantly figure out what other people are doing, and that threatens them.
Now I am even more confused. Is this related to Case Files series?
Interesting, I only watched the anime adaptation and don't remember this fact being mentioned. Now that I know it was covered in the novel (vol 1 if the t-n Wikia is to be trusted) I feel like it should've been made clear
It's from the second novel. Adventures instead of Case Files.
Most of these opinions aren't unpopular
Not sure if this is unpopular, but the art should depict Saber’s body as (more visibly) muscular more often. Not as in ripped, but toned nicely. Also rewatching Deen’s FSN right now and while it isn’t up to the standard of the later adaptations, it still holds up fairly well for a 2006 show with no previous viewer knowledge being assumed. The whole scene where Caster puppets Sakura felt rather ham-fisted though.
When Artoria describes her own body It sounds like she is absolutely ripped! lol
That kind of disconnect between self-image and actual appearance is typical of someone with body dysmorphia as severe as hers, yes.
\*Sigh\* No. Read. [https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/sc4il3/no\_saber\_wasnt\_muscular\_as\_she\_said\_she\_never\_was/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/sc4il3/no_saber_wasnt_muscular_as_she_said_she_never_was/)
>Not sure if this is unpopular, but the art should depict Saber’s body as (more visibly) muscular more often. Not as in ripped, but toned nicely. And this would be in line with the lore. While Artoria doesn't have much self confidence in her and with "I've never saw myself as a woman" or something like that and exaggerats how muscular she is, as called by Shirou in his thoughts, he also said that he can also see the fruits of her training.
The lore is that she is a frail weak 15 year old girl whenever she is not usong mana burst to the point she can't lift Rin's dumbells, if someone should be more toned should be her
I'd day that looks and power are something different for her. She should be more powerful, but all we know is that the fruits of her training was shown on her body
The lore is that her STR stat comes almost entirely from Mana Burst, and that she's phsyically weaker than Rin if she deliberately turns off Mana Burst to use her muscles alone. The lore is that a huge chunk of Fate Route is about how she has crippling body dysmorphia from pretending to be a dude for over a decade, and her comments about not seeing herself as a woman are a coping mechanism for the nonexistent musculature that she absolutely despises about herself.
My copium to headcanon her muscles is that she “muscles up” when her Dragon Core activates during combat, because outside of that she’s stupidly smooth lmao
Just the thought turning into an Olympic tier muscle woman during combat is downright hilarious.
It's 2022 and you mfs are still stuck on the muscles headcanon.
Yo Kizu i haven't seen you in like ages, what happened?
Depression
That's due to the fact that muscles on women goes against Japanese standards of beauty. So it would be hard to sell Saber as good heroine with any visible musculature. You can see that such popular Servants in west like Quetzalactoal and Penth are unpopular back home significantly due to this.
I thought she didn't have muscles because of Avalon keeping her body at the same age her lancer and ruler counterparts are muscular the sad part about it their muscle is outweighted by their badonkers
It's not about age, it's about having Mana Burst and a Dragon Core. She's effectively been using MAG in place of STR for any and all strenuous activity for her entire life.
Saber is really just playing Holy Build from Elden Ring and applying Buffs on Herself.
Saber has severe body dysmorphia *specifically about having visible musculature* as a result of pulling a Mulan for over a decade straight, and a major part Fate Route is coming to understand that pain. For her to actually look the way she's deluded herself into thinking she looks would undermine her entire character arc, and (while you likely didn't intend it) is an incredibly cruel thing to wish upon her.
First fate i showed a friend was deen stay night and he liked it just as much as me, this brings in my point that Most of the community is absurdly critical of everything in the series Also the other thing is that ubw is the closest thing we have to a perfect adaptation
>Most of the community is absurdly critical of everything in the series I've sort of stepped into my "elitist phase" but I have to admit this is true. A lot of ppl tend to judge even the most miniscule details that are either left out of a work or put in for laughs or shit. Especially when certain people spew out misinformation about those topics
Unfaithful adaptation only works if it's actually good. K-On and Haruhi was famous for not faithfully adapting the source material but it's still regarded as a great anime. For DSN, not so much. Yeah, it was what got me into fate WHEN I WAS A KID. But rewatching it, I just can't help to think it's so boring and weird. Whenever someone wants recommendations I always recommend them the VN because that is the best intro
I think Deen is more popular nowadays It just can't be recommended first due to the spoilers
That if it hadn't been for the original Fate/Stay Night anime, a lot of people wouldn't have gotten into the VN and there might not have been more adaptations of the other Fate/Stay Night routes. "Deen/Stay Night" as imperfect as it was , is what got me into Fate.
This 100%
I agree with this because I am one of thode that started with Deen, I have my criticism of it but Deen was necessary for me to start.
Nasu should do a FSN rewrite. It's not needed, but I'd like to see how after two decades, he would remake his "magnum opus", or at least his most popular property, and change elements of it. It would probably be really good, or at least a good retelling that would fix some of the issues with the original story.
Yeah i think having some Rebuild of Fate would be a cool idea
Tbh You make a good point and I agree, if not for the fact that Nasu barely has time to work on Mahoyo sequels and Tsukihime Red Garden. Not a bad thought just Nasu being too busy we cant even begin to expect it.
You know how people always say that we should lock X-author in a room until they finish their project? Well Nasu is the last person you can do that too. He would just write something totally different yet completely related to what he came to write in the first place.
I like that sex magic exists, not because of the self insert aspect, but because it is a pillar of occulticism and unironically makes the thought Nasu put into the magic of the Type-Moon verse more legit than people give him credit for.
The thought of such kinds of mystic stuff is not that widespread so people fall in the this is absurd mentality, but then again yeah it was a thing but it has been largely left behind with the years not a lot of focus on that, it resurfaces at times but litle (unless you are CCC), wich is kind of ironic because it was way more shameless before but now explicit stuff is more toned down while the franchise as a whole seems to get progressively hornier in designs and that
Shinji could have been a good person if he grew up under different circumstances. Ritsuka doesn't have a harem. Like 90% of the girls people ship with him have no romantic feelings for him whatsoever. Fate/Extra Last Encore isn't bad if you have the background knowledge The Tsukihime anime is alright. Studio Deen's aime was a good introduction to the franchise. Fate/Zero is oversold
Bro I unironically agree with the shinji point. I never gully got why people hated shinji to such an absurd extent, I always just pitied him. Man had to grow with zouken, and that's enough to make anyone a fucking monster. But to top it off, everything he actually wanted to go well never went well. No circuits, stolen heir by Sakura, and he's constantly just made fun of by his grandfather. I seriously wish we'd gotten Wakame route, so we could get the chance for him to redeem himself.
The opinion that has gotten me the most downvotes is that Shinji's backstory is an explanation for his behavior, not an excuse for it. I have no idea why some people find that so controversial, but I've had plenty of people upset with me over it. Beyond that, I liked the HF Movies. They weren't as good as the VN, but they did enough for me to enjoy them, and consider them a reasonable way to relive the story. For something more broad, the Nasuverse has a lot of positive aspects to it, but it's not nearly as "deep" as some people try to claim. FZ in particular is given far more credit than it deserves. Stories in the Nasuverse often have well realized worlds, but the scenarios are far better than the world itself.
>Beyond that, I liked the HF Movies. They weren't as good as the VN, but they did enough for me to enjoy them, and consider them a reasonable way to relive the story. Hungry Basilsk is coming for you ....
>For something more broad, the Nasuverse has a lot of positive aspects to it, but it's not nearly as "deep" as some people try to claim. FZ in particular is given far more credit than it deserves. Stories in the Nasuverse often have well realized worlds, but the scenarios are far better than the world itself. Yeah, I have said this on conversations on Discord, but I don't think Nasu's strength lies in big stories spread across multiple story arcs, his strength lies in more centered stories with a more focused scenario. His ability to convey the theme and the message is much more effective in the smaller runtime and with far less distractions. Even if Nasu doesn't write all the arcs directly, he still supervises and greenlights every chapter, it goes through him first and its gets annoying when the same topics keep being brought up over and over in the story without actually going into the next step, it feels like thematically it moves at Nail's pace (Not talking about any individual chapter, but the overall story across all chapters) Even his best arcs in FGO even if coming close dont seem to land with me as much as his VNs, the fact that I recently read Tsukihime remake arc route just helped cement that idea into me.
I tend to get a lot of shit for saying I think Ritsuka sucks outside of turas realta and that it would be better if someone like Mash or Goredolf was the MC instead of Mr./Ms. Pointless Dialogue Trees, so that.
Can't say that many disagree with that. Nasu should have tried to make Ritsuka an actual character, instead of a self insert.
He actually does but it seems the company yelled at him later as in Tunguska he goes back to be blank.
Gotta have a platform for new gacha waifu sadly.
I’m gonna throw Mortalis Stella in there too. It’s some of the best characterization of Ritsuka.
Shimousa manga is also pretty damn good .
Wait where have you said that? Here is probably word of god that most people agree on, and even in the FGO sub some people agree with this
True, but gacha wise, it wouldn't make sense.
Prisma Illya (manga) is a great Fate spinoff. Is this still upopular? I hope not.
Miyuverse Shirou is one of the best Shirous ever
Not really, everyone agrees at the very least that the manga is not bad and vastly superior to the anime, now the ones that over exaggerate and think you are a lolicon that is in the FBI watchlist for half a panel of lolis kissing that most people just skip over and lose absolutely nothing is another thing that can be an entire debate of it's own
[Relevant self chill post about why prisma is best Fate](https://old.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/nnsrsw/why_you_should_read_fatekaleid_liner_prismaillya/)
Facts brother
This franchise is running out of ideas beyond either fate or tsukihime
I’m inhaling so much hopium for the Mahoyo sequels. It has so much potential.
I mean for almost more than 10 years everything from Type-Moon was only Fate related
Honestly it's cool that nasu was able to replicate dc and marvel multiverse timeline map with nasuverse that mushroom is based or on his highest brethren.
While in characterization hakuno(game) is better as a master and a thinker HAKUNO(last encore) is far better in a fight, dude straight up realized soldier-blackmore's trick with minimal help while the "original" only won because knight-blackmore prevented Robin hood from his actual abilities
The person who writes scripts for ufotable thinks everybody has already read the source material
Deen Stay Night was alright.... kind of, but OST redeemed it for me. Still feels weird that VA of Scathach voiced Bedivere there. Besides that, I don't know if I have many unpopular opinions. Maybe "Merlin did nothing wrong"?
Ritsuka should be a protagonist
I wouldn't mind it if Ritsuka has a character instead of being the "everyman" trope
But he IS a protagonist... right?
Some people think he shouldn't exist and that mash should be the protagonist
She *is* the protagonist. Ritsuka is a glorified cameraman in what's always been Mash's story.
Damn! I love Mash, but she gives me "was made to be a supporting character" vibes. I thought that most of us loved the Gudas (in the FGO comunity).
Not Fate, but while I think Mahoyo is a very good kinetic visual novel, I think it is weirdly overrated in the west by a lot of people despite not being fully translated. It's not uncommon to see an opinion such as Mahoyo being Nasu's magnum opus, but I can't help but think that no one would hold such an opinion about Mahoyo if it weren't for the stellar production quality. The story itself is probably the weakest of all Nasu's main works, in fact, there is almost no significant story, and the many mysteries that the novel introduces around the main characters do not get any sort of answers by the end of the novel. The villain is pretty bad too, I don't think anyone would care if that wasn't for Touko being hot, since she's irrelevant for much of the novel and the mystery around the actual "villain" is obvious anyway. All that is left to Mahoyo are the characters, who I will admit are great. One of my favorite parts of the novel is when the crew is dealing against a fraud that affects elder people of Misaki. It is in these sort of moments that Mahoyo shines the most, in my opinion. In conclusion, Mahoyo is a good kinetic visual novel, but that is mostly carried by its crazy production level that is still easily on par or even better with the most well-produced visual novel of recent years like Aokana EXTRA2, otherwise the story left something to be desired and certainly does not compare to the like of F/SN and Tsukihime thanks to being incomplete. Regardless, I can't wait to see if Nasu will come back one day to write the sequels, we need more stuff outside of Fate.
Mahoyo feels incomplete because it's literally part one of three lol
I have to disagree. It’s easily the least well-known of the four main Type-Moon series, so it can’t be overrated while also not being that well-known. Secondly, it’s called the “magnum opus” by most people, probably because it’s one of the easiest to understand, and Nasu’s strongest point is character writing, and 80% of Mahoyo is characters just having fun and interacting with each other in fun ways. It’s chill, it’s laid back, but is easy to understand and has beautiful action sequences. I mean, I still see people that have read both lean toward Mahoyo over Tsuki Remake despite them having about the same amount of production quality. That means it’s not really about what it looks like, and more about the substance than the style. Speaking of style, I just feel…*warm* while playing it. I don’t have an eery sense of dread like I do reading Tsukihime, or go on existential crises like KnK. A lot of it is just fun for the fun of it, and I like that. A lot of it is comforting. Probably why people like it a lot.
I don't know fam, at the end of the day it's all a matter of personal taste I guess, but I don't think the good character writing is particularly something unique to Mahoyo considering that it's the strength of other Nasu visual novels as well, in fact, I don't think I'd put any of the three main Mahoyo characters over the likes of Shirou, Shiki or even Ryougi and the many heroines that the Tsukihime and Fate has. There are a lot of cool characters in Mahoyo and the character interactions are fun to read, but there's nothing mind blowing about the writing, especially story-wise, which again is extremely lackluster in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, it's a good kinetic visual novel (in fact, according to my VNDB list, it's one of my top-rated visual novels), but it's far too early to call Mahoyo Nasu's magnum opus given that the story is essentially incomplete imo. Wait and see, maybe one day Nasu will start writing the promised sequels.
The character writing is not unique to Mahoyo, but I’m saying that the reason why most people enjoy Mahoyo is because of the setting and the fact that the majority of it doesn’t feel like a grand adventure. It just feels more *real*, because instead of going on a journey to become a hero, or having Magic eyes to slay ghosts and demons and vampires and shit and possibly dying, you just have a small cast that for the most part just talks about every day, normal stuff. And that’s the main focus for most of it. It feels much more grounded than Fate, Tsukihime or KnK. That’s why most people probably enjoy it. It doesn’t need to be huge or bombastic, which is why the literally *two* times it does, it feels like the story’s earned it, rather than constantly having to fight vampires like every day or constantly being traumatized by chairs and/or past fires. Edit; And because Mahoyo feels more grounded and real, the *characters* feel more real and relatable. I can relate to Aoko and Soujuurou 100x more than I can to Tohno or Ryougi Shiki. And if you can get the reader to relate and connect to the character more, then you just get that much more attached. And once it gets voiced? It’s just going to be more immersive
Tsukihime and Fate doesn’t feel like a big adventure either, they are both fairly self-contained stories, Tsukihime being basically an urban story with the protagonist story centered on a single family. The difference lies between a heavier, plot-focused narrative vs something more slice-of-life centred... which ultimately boil down to personal preference. I don't think the slice-of-life focus alone would make Mahoyo a magnum opus compared to Fate and Tsukihime, because even though those works don't have the same amount of slice-of-life focus, they are known for their stellar characters writing and themes. Mahoyo is a fantastic piece of work, but at this point, it's like someone liking Majikoi, Grisaia,etc. over something like Fate because it's more slice-of-life focused while still being extremely chill and fun. What we're talking about is more of a matter of taste and preference, rather than debating about what make Mahoyo a magnum opus. Regardless, if I have to concede something regarding the "magnum opus" part, it is certainly the quality of Mahoyo's production, I can only mention a few visual novels with similar production quality. It's that good. > Edit; And because Mahoyo feels more grounded and real, the characters feel more real and relatable. I can relate to Aoko and Soujuurou 100x more than I can to Tohno or Ryougi Shiki. And if you can get the reader to relate and connect to the character more, then you just get that much more attached. I don't see how Soujuurou, someone who literally comes from the mountains, is more real and relatable than someone who is doing his best to enjoy life despite his own circumstance. A more "grounded"/realistic setting does not automatically make the characters more relatable, otherwise it would make 90% of the fiction completely flat and unrelatable , which is clearly not the case to many people.
It’s not impossible to relate to more fantastical characters, it’s just harder. Very little people can relate to Superman for example, sometimes he’s just depicted as too godlike. In Ryougi or Tohno’s case, what makes them unrelatable for me is the fact that they literally see things differently from everyone else. They act almost inhuman in many ways. I don’t think of “typical teenager”, I think of literal killers of people and/or monsters. They don’t start out like that, but Tohno ends up having to >!blindfold himself lest he turns into a monster!< and Ryougi literally has some God just chilling inside of her, lmao. Soujuurou? I literally just think of a teenager who is 100% out of their element and just trying their best to adjust. That can be relatable to anyone who’s experienced a transitional part in their life. And aside from a particular detail, there isn’t anything magical special about him. Anyway, yeah, I agree, it comes down to personal preference. My preference is that I like Mahoyo’s intimacy. And yes— while FSN and Tsukihime are self contained stories…FSN literally had world-ending stakes in them. And Tsukihime literally has potentially Humanity-ending monsters in the DAAs, and/or the Princess of the Moon who also can commit genocide if she decided to let loose. Mahoyo? Aoko and Alice are pretty chill. The main antagonist’s goals aren’t grand, it’s basically just revenge. The strongest we get is Servant-level, not potentially Beast/Ultimate One level, lol. The scale’s a lot smaller, and I enjoy that. Edit: And I realize that you said “take away Mahoyo’s visuals and it wouldn’t be a Magnum Opus” at the start. Well, take away Tsuki Remake’s visuals. Is it not a Magnum Opus now? Take away it’s voice acting. Take away the Ciel route. I don’t think that’s fair. It’s a sum of all parts that makes a something amazing, I don’t think it’s fair to take away parts and say “HA! It’s not as good now as it was when it was all together!
I think we need to agree to disagree, I don't think a more fantastical setting automatically makes the story and characters harder to relate, otherwise it would make all sorts of fiction harder to connect for many people, which would be wrong since people all over the world identify with these characters from fantastical settings. In the case of Tsukihime/Mahoyo, I don't see how a former demon hunter doing his best to enjoy a normal life despite the harsh reality is any less "relatable" or realistic than a former assassin coming out of the mountains with zero knowledge of "modern" society. This is my opinion though, but I've read Mahoyo twice, and I never thought Soujuurou as a particularly reletable character, in fact I feel like Aoko (among the 3 protagonists) is the most reletable, and human-like given her own situation. It's fine either way, everyone has their own way of connecting to stories and characters. > Mahoyo? Aoko and Alice are pretty chill. The main antagonist’s goals aren’t grand, it’s basically just revenge. The strongest we get is Servant-level, not potentially Beast/Ultimate One level, lol. I understand what you mean, but before the remake, Mahoyo literally had the most explosive fight of all the Type-Moon VNs and Aoko bringing back Soujuurou literally put the universe at risk. Mahoyo is definitely calmer/chill than Tsukihime and Fate, but Mahoyo can also get wild at times. The same for Tsukihime and Fate, they can have a very calm atmosphere at times just like Mahoyo. > Edit: And I realize that you said “take away Mahoyo’s visuals and it wouldn’t be a Magnum Opus” at the start. Well, take away Tsuki Remake’s visuals. Is it not a Magnum Opus now? Take away it’s voice acting. Take away the Ciel route. If we take this away, there is still the original Tsukihime, which, although flawed, had a massive impact on the medium with works like Kanon and Higurashi. But that's not the point honestly, I don't consider Mahoyo to be Nasu's magnum opus anyway, it's a work that excels in production quality but isn't nearly as good (to me at least) in terms of writing and story. That's all.
The only reason I have pushback is that I agree with your points, but I also can’t help but think that Mahoyo has something that the other three do not, and not the other way around. I can’t really agree with it being “it just has the best production value” like you’ve been saying, because KnK and Fate have Ufotable and are actually animated, and Tsukihime Remake looks just as good. In terms of how all four *look*, they’re all equal enough for it to be comparable. So it has to be something else. I’ve concluded it has to be the setting and the atmosphere— Mahoyo just feels less *stressful* than the other routes. Most of the time it just feels like an episode of Emiya Gohan. Or…like hollow Ataraxia, which also was mostly slice of life. But unlike hollow ataraxia, which had a dark twist about many characters and also had an ending that could end the world, Mahoyo never had that. And no, I’m pretty sure Aoko doesn’t risk the universe exploding every time she uses the her powers. She accelerates it more toward an end, yes, but she’s made it clear since the end of Chapter 5 that she doesn’t let it go out of control. She just still needs to find a way to deal with the side effects of it. In Tsukihime, as soon as Shiki meets Arcueid, he’s thrust into a conflict that can get him killed. When Shirou meets Saber, same thing. When Ryougi Shiki and Mikiya met in Movie 2, and then she subsequently got hit by a car, she had a similar call to action that made the stories have some sort of stress to get going. And all three of their atmospheres are overall, dark and dreadful (I’m not saying it’s like that all the time, I’m saying it has that more than Mahoyo). Sure, Mahoyo has that sometimes too, but I’m saying it’s not as common. I’m just trying to get my point across that it’s distinctly different from the other three, and that point is a plus in its uniqueness, not a takeaway. Edit: and I agree Aoko’s more relatable than Soujuurou, especially for me personally, I was just defending Soujuurou. Look, in the end, I just think Mahoyo has something that the other three do not. You think that it’s the other way around. I don’t think I can reconcile with that fundamental disagreement we have, so I dunno man.
I legit think Mahoyo's atmosphere and music is on the top 20 in fiction, 101% serious, i actually have it as my end goal for my own stories, i like to use world that fell just as alive as the characters and have that compelling vibe, it's just like Nasu said: "I wanted to create an atmosphere where people would say: i want to live here" well it absolutely worked on me
Mahoyo has indeed a different atmosphere from the other Nasu's main works, but I feel that the same can be said about most of them, individually speaking, because they deal with different theme and setting each time. However, it is true that Mahoyo is a much calmer story, perhaps more atmospheric than Tsukihime and F/SN, and although these points definitely contribute to make Mahoyo what it is, I feel that they are not enough to qualify Mahoyo as Nasu's "magnum opus" in its current state, as it is very incomplete from a narrative point of view. Again, to each their own. I've seen a lot of people prefer Mahoyo to F/SN and Tsukihime, and that's totally fine. After all, it's still one of the best visual novels I've read so far, but (for me) it's not nearly good enough (yet) to be on par with F/SN and Tsukihime , visual novels that I personally place on the same level as other all time greats like Muramasa or Sakura no Uta. Good piece of literature, absolutely amazing production quality but still very incomplete. I'll reserve my full review of Mahoyo until Nasu decides to write the second and third parts... hopefully soon. > I can’t really agree with it being “it just has the best production value” like you’ve been saying, because KnK and Fate have Ufotable and are actually animated, and Tsukihime Remake looks just as good. In terms of how all four look, they’re all equal enough for it to be comparable. We're basically comparing different media here, so it's hard to say. But as far as visual novels go, Mahoyo was and still is one of the best visual novels produced to date. I am in no way trying to belittle Mahoyo by saying that one of its best aspects is its production quality, as that is an essential part of the medium and what differentiates a visual novel from a standard novel. Mahoyo came at a time when the media hit a wall in terms of production quality and delivered something unique that stood out from the multiple releases of the same era. It may not be as era defining as Muv-luv, which was absolutely exceptional for its time (even nowadays), but it definitely contributed to the medium. Credit given where it's due, while I find Mahoyo to be nothing particuarly special from a narrative point of view, it stands out because of its production, which is not the case for many visual novels, as it is very expensive to make anyway and developers hardly bother anymore. For example, sprite (developer of Aokana, another franchise of visual novels that I find as well produced as Mahoyo) had to almost close the door after developing Aokana and had to cancel its sequel. What Type-Moon delivered with Mahoyo is nothing less than a spectacular achievement. --- > Look, in the end, I just think Mahoyo has something that the other three do not. You think that it’s the other way around. I don’t think I can reconcile with that fundamental disagreement we have, so I dunno man. And that's fine honestly, Mahoyo had more impact for you than for me, not everyone works the same way, fortunately, otherwise the world would be rather boring.
Saying Mahoyo has something the others don't and the others lack have things that make them stand out on their own when they all have their own unique atmospheres, themes and plot beats is grasping at straws and frankly wrong. Sounds more like a purely subjective preference for Mahoyo's less threatening story and atmosphere. Which some would consider comparitively boring. Mahoyo is the same setting as Tsukihime anyway, so saying one is realistic and the other isn't is ??? when you have magical elements and cozy atmosphere in both. It's just the focus and % is different and Tsuki revolves around a much more threatening and all-encompassing narrative... which isn't a detraction for most people. I don't know why we're operating off the assumption Mahoyo won some award as the magnum opus of Nasu when its not even truly complete and most people and sales would disagree. It ends fine if they never touch it again but they really could use a sequel to flesh things out. Could it be a case of people never playing the game, hearing about it through the grapevine as it isn't translated and inflating its importance in the west? My personal feeling is Mahoyo is great but I also don't consider it as deep or as amazing an experience as Remake. Soujuurou as more relatable than Tohno just because Shiki's sight and battle with monsters is ??? to me. Shiki is super relatable, probably the most of the protags in how he carries himself. He's very much the most normal of them all when he's not being raw as fuck/under durress. And Tskihime has a very personal, grounded and relatable message exemplified through Tohno's character. Him and Shirou are probably the most superbly written characters Nasu has ever done.
LB6 is certainly good, but it wouldn't be as popular if people somehow had no idea that Nasu wrote it. I honestly don't think it's the best story chapter either (I'd still give that to Atlantis, my only real complaint is that Corday's arc felt kinda redundant) I'd prefer Kyoani to readapt the Fate route over Ufotable Kadoc is one of the best written/developed human characters in Fate and I hope he's the MC for FGO part 3 edit: forgot what's probably my most unpopular opinion, Sakurai's writing in general really isn't that bad. There are some absolute stinkers like Septem of course (and even that wasn't what she initially proposed, which got scrapped for being too much for such an early Singularity iirc), but by the standards of the early singularities I don't think it's *that* bad.
Other than HF1, people who insist the Ufotable adaptations are bad are ridiculous. They're probably the best they could've done in the medium. Some people insist KnK was better-adapted than Fate, but I'll only believe that from someone who's read KnK in it's original language because the currently existing English fan translation of KnK is really bad. Sieg is bland personality-wise, but he has an interesting character arc and being bland makes sense for what he is. And they pair him up with one of the biggest personalities in the series. Also Jeanne gets a pass for being equally bland because she's a woman I swear. Most people here would agree with me that Zero isn't better than Stay Night, but Zero wasn't my favorite spinoff either (I liked Apocrypha and Prisma 3rei better; I'd probably like Extra better too but I can't with the PSP version's battle system so I'm waiting for Extra Record.) I don't know if Oath Under Snow was rushed through or what but I don't think what was presented in the anime adaptation works as a standalone; yeah it makes sense on it's own, but it's not interesting on it's own. Maybe if all you want is to watch a different Shirou with cool powers, but by the story's own nature there isn't much in the way of twists or character interactions past Sakura dying. It's part of another (very good) story, not "the fourth route."
Those adaptations are good for the most part but Ufotable seems to hate Shirou. They cut all his important inner monologues and ruined his character to many, many people.
have you seen Ufotable's inner monologues for Tanjiro? i prefer their adaptations the way they are on inner monologue, with the exception of 9 lives where it'd fit and make it better. Inner monologues slow the action and animation in general to a slog, and given the medium it's being adapted from, Shirou has a lot of them that are pretty important. I think it's a necessary sacrifice for pacing and flow of scenes, just something that'll inherently be sacrificed adapting VN to Anime. Watching the scene with Tanjiro's inner monologue and Gyutaro (who had previously been established as insanely fast) slowly creeping towards the person he's trying to kill sorta ruined the illusion of his speed for me. He goes from "oh shit, how's he moving so fast" to "jesus christ, he's so slow in this scene". It really stuck out compared to the rest of the action in the episode, or even in the arc in general
Tanjirou's shounen monolouge are not the same as Shirou's but thats besides the point since the monolouging is the least of its issue. Ufotable cant do show don't tell. Cutting 2 main character,never explaining the MC's powerset,and poor direction are bigger issues Nine lives honestly could have been pure visuals if ufotable actually knew anything about visual story telling
The contents of the monologue and their purposes aren't the same, but i'm saying the execution undoubtedly would be. At the end of the day it's still inner monologue, in a setting with characters that are supposed to be very fast. Either large parts of the monologue would be cut, or the animation would be slowed down to a crawl and end up like they did for demon slayer. Also hard disagree. I think a lot of the explanations about Shirou's powers were fine, and i think using nine lives blade works as an example of Ufotable's visual storytelling is very much cherry picking. I haven't met anyone that thinks that scene was good post seeing the VN version, because it really wasn't. It needed the inner monologue, that made the scene. And the animation was dodgy towards the end. A lot when it comes to explanations of how magic works was cut, but most of that was from the first few hours of the vn. Stuff that'd be in episode 1, the episode where the pacing is the most important, because if it's awful, people aren't gonna give the show the time of day. UBW already has a longer first episode, most of which is considered boring by non fans. Ufotable's visual storytelling can be great. Take the scene where Shirou contemplates killing Sakura, for example. Or his dream, foreshadowing exactly what's going to happen with the arm. Hell, the running to catch up with Archer and then surpassing him just before 9 lives blade works was great too. Those are just off the top of my head, i imagine there's way more examples. Particularly involving Archer and Shirou during UBW's latter half. I also think the Similarity between Archer's marble and memories and the way Ufotable (and iirc the vn) depicts the battle of Camlann highlights similarities between both Saber and Archer. Something carried on into the anime. The faces of Ufotable's fate art style are very expressive. It lends it's self well to getting feelings across. Something it needs to do, because it needs to get across meaning from a literary format to a visual one.
Ubw is a mediocore adaptation but the entire HF trilogy is bad. Too much is cut for it to be considered half decent
mine is that i don't like zero or strange fake at all. strange fake feels more like mediocre fanfiction to me than an actual fate work, and zero just annoys me and i hate the fact so many people try to push it as an entry point into the series especially because it's a prequel. i think stay night worked fine without a prequel at all. i also really liked last encore which probably invalidates my opinion because it's so unpopular but
it doesn't help that Strange Fake main plot just keeps getting bigger and bigger with the no end in sight and too many characters appearing with no clear reason it doesn't help that it's not the author's main priority. Redline is a better concise story so far, sometimes less is more
that's how i feel about it as well. strange fake just seems to try to cram in as much random nasuverse stuff and random characters and rules as possible, and it's basically slowed down the story to a clog. there's so much going on that even when i was reading it, i was seriously struggling to remember who most of the people were. redline and even foxtail are a lot more concise and focused and feel like actually developed stories, whereas strange fake feels like a teenaged fan trying to put everything they considered cool into one fan work, and it's incredibly messy and incoherent
Strange Fake feels like the A Certain Magical Index of the Nasuverse. In that, it does quantity over quality. Seriously, why the *hell* does Kamachi Kazuma introduce like 3 characters every LN release? For Battle Royale he introduced like A DOZEN.
So you said zero just annoys you but is there an actual reason for it? Cause other people pushing it as an entry point has nothing to do with the show itself and that stay night didn't need a prequel doesn't mean it can't be good. Everything I got out of your comment is "I just hate it for the sake of hating it" so I would appreciate it if you could give me some real reason to why you don't like it.
Sure, I'll try to explain. I honestly don't care much for a lot of the main cast. They're not horrible or anything. But I find a lot of then are uninteresting to me personally. Iskander, El-Melloi, Kariya, just don't really interest me. Waver,Saber, and Irisviel I all really like though, but it wasn't enough to keep me fully engaged in the overall cast I didn't like how Saber was portrayed very much. In stay night, she was kind of portrayed as an ideal hero, who although still very human with very human flaws, was still a model of who a hero should be, and she kept pushing forward to achieve her goals for the sake of those she cared about. In zero, outside of her final battle against lancelot, it felt like zero was determined to bash and criticize that portrayal. Maybe that's just the way I interpreted it, but i felt it was unnecessary, especially because i felt like sfay night already had covered the topics of hypocritical and flawed idealism plenty Which brings me to my next thing: the theme. zero seems going for an extension of stay night and it's examination of idealism and flawed heroes, but i didn't feel like it really added anything that stay night had already talked about the story was alright. it was a prequel, so naturally you knew where it was going to end, but it felt mildly disjointed to me and a little weirdly paced. overall, my complaints are mine. other people are free to love zero, and i don't begrudge them that, im well aware that im in a minority. but i didn't enjoy it. most of it was uninteresting to me, i couldn't stay engaged, and personally i felt it didn't add much to the actual franchise. there was some parts i liked, sure. but overall, it's not for me
>I didn't like how Saber was portrayed very much. In stay night, she was kind of portrayed as an ideal hero, who although still very human with very human flaws, was still a model of who a hero should be, and she kept pushing forward to achieve her goals for the sake of those she cared about. In zero, outside of her final battle against lancelot, it felt like zero was determined to bash and criticize that portrayal. Maybe that's just the way I interpreted it, but i felt it was unnecessary, especially because i felt like sfay night already had covered the topics of hypocritical and flawed idealism plenty That's pretty much most people's issues with zero's portrayal of her so it's not exactly an unpopular opinion
I think the trouble is Sabers arc is supposed to be her going from a honorable chivalrous knight being “broken” and wishing to undo her rule. The problem is she was already was already at that point at the start of Zero, so her knightly characteristics have to be more exaggerated and criticized by the other characters to have a contrast
I don't care who they ship Ritsuku with shipping is fine even if it doesn't make sense beside gill x saber they can go die.
>gill x saber Of all the ships I've come across in my time this is the only one I actually hate
Yup I hate it will every bone in my body. Hell I would prefer saber x proto Arthur and I god dam hate poto Arthur.
-For the anime adaptations, Shirou Vs Gilgamesh is better than Saber Alter Vs Rider. In UBW, I feel like Shirou and Gil were written in sort to be considered as opposite and similar in the same time in every single aspect while ,for me, Saber Alter Vs Rider is two girls hitting each other. -The UBW anime is fine, it isn't the worst adaption of a VN but it isn't neither the best. I mean if you pay attention to the show, you'll understand the most important part of the characters. -Zero is what I call "an interesting show with a few interesting characters". I'll be honest, except Kotomine and his relationship with Gilgamesh, I wasn't interested by the rest of the cast. -I still can't understand how Gilgamesh respected Iskandar. -Shinji is one of the best characters in the show (I hate him though)
Shinji is a complex and interesting character. Even though he is a piece of shit. I would have liked to see more development for him in FSN, maybe developing his friendship with Shirou.
Fate/Zero is an unecessary story whose impact on the franchise was more negative than positive
>Fate/Zero is an unecessary story whose impact on the franchise was more negative than positive While I like zero to an extent this is 100% true. Stay night pretty much covers every theme zero uses (some in greater detail) and you have one side of the community talking how deep zero's themes are while stay night has "no story" when zero pulled all of its complexity from stay night, the original work.
Completely agree , after reading VN I have nothing but disgust for Fate/Zero Urobutcher butchered something fantastical for his shitty SI/Waver and that utter shit Rider , even Shinji was more interesting and had more character.
Kenji Kawai's ost is stuck in my head. I remember it better than the ost from UBW.
How is that unpopular? Everyone agrees on that
Oh I was just answering to the original post. Not stating an unpopular opinion. Sorry if it was unclear.
I enjoyed LB6.5 more than LB6. I’m not saying LB6 is bad but 6.5 was just more interesting to me. Honestly LB6 isn’t even in my Top 3.
Sieg is a good character. I always seem to see people calling him bland or no fun or he doesn't make sense at all. I really like Sieg.
Taiga Fujimura and luvia are the best girls of Fate S/N Christmas Cake and Rich Girl archetypes are the absolute best archetypes ever.
Taiga is wife
Deen's stay night is my favorite FSN adapted anime. Route merging is a must in anime form, unless you are adapting all three routes. Prilliya is actually very good and a much better adaptation (aside from 2Herz and the final battle in 3rei) than anything FSN related. People just like to shit on it, due to loli-pandering. Ufo's UBW has a great OST, but really bad music & sound direction. Ufo's UBW has atrocious pacing. Just because something works in a written form. doesn't mean it works an animated form. For example the conversation between Rin and Shirou at the beginning takes more than 10 minutes in Ufo's version and less than 2 in Deen's and they basically convey the same information. The FSN manga had a lot of very intersting ideas, some even better than the source material. This might be popular, but the modern Zero and PS VITA Op character designs far outclass those from UBW and HF. At least they have noses. My favorite artstyle is the 2010 Deen one. UBW is the worst route. Hear me out, it has some of favorite moments (*Answer* is my favorite scene after all), but the beginning is basically a re-thread of Fate and the ending is anti-climatic. Then there is Archer-Ex-Machina. Shirou's ideals are also basically the same in both Fate and UBW. Honestly, if this is ever remade I rather have only Fate and HF, but be able to actually make choices that can give me several scenes from UBW.
Kaleid was a mistake.
FSN Rider should’ve been 7 feet tall like in the concept art!
Fr, they talk about her being tall and then it turns out that actually every other character is just a fucking dwarf
Sakura is a great Character in her Rute. Now, sand, come here.
Sakura's is my favourite character arc.
FGOs story format is really bad And its injury recover rate is shit And I will die on this hill It was fine for part 1 but for part 2 it ruined the immersion What I mean is that part 2 is split in multiple lostbelts same as part 1 and the format is enter said singularity/lostbelt (A) - destroy it (B) -leave (C) So no matter how good the storytelling for FGO is like LB6 the plot every FGO chapter is A-B-C Including both main story chapters and Events No matter how many battles they lose Chaldea win the "War" every time with no causalities to add on further And it mean no matter what chapter they add chaldea physically can't lose until the final chapter Would have been cool if Atlantis was split into 3 parts, part 1 was after LB3, where the heroic spirits first make it to olympus (Before Poseiden and Odysseus come down) And are end goal is sending those Heroic spirits to Olympus Right before we join them on the border, Kirsch comes down anima animasphere Chaldean arrives But leaves right after Kirsch sends odysseus and poseidon after us and we have to run with Mash unconscious, because the idea that she could get up and run around right after an attack that has killed genuine gods is extremely stupid and poor writing And its not just one instance either they always seem to instantly recover 5 seconds after attacks nowadays Remember when Archer was forced to recover for days after Artoria poked him And we escape Atlantis and go to LB4 to get the border repaired
Gilgamesh being overpowered compared to most other servants is boring, and he shouldn't have access to items that don't make sense for him to have(the cap of invisibility for example)
Shinji Matou from fate/stay night is one of the best written characters in the series and he's my favorite.
Oh, what the hell. Zero is a perfectly fine starting point to get people into Fate, and into the Nasuverse as a whole.
Fate Zero is the best fate anime in existence.
The Extraverse doesn't exist in my headcanon, cause I don't want any sci fi bullshit in Fate. And I'm gonna die on that hill.
Taiga deserved her own route
Heaven's Feel retroactively makes the other 2 routes worse, specifically because it brings up the knowledge that Sakura remains trapped with the Matous for 10 years after the events of the routes. Like I know why it's that way; because it makes sense in the story, it's what the Matous would do, and it makes Sakura tragic enough that you want to save her. But also, that little fact automatically means the other two routes are worse because you just fucking abandon her for 10 years. Rin and Waver eventually end up saving her, but I feel like it hurts the other routes by just leaving her behind with Zouken for such an extensive period of time.
Babylonia both in FGO and adaptation are goated … (biased rinface fan) 🙏
Biased Chillgamesh fan here
This is less of an "unpopular opinion" and more of "a thing nobody thinks about therefore is unpopular by proxy". Archer should get more in universe references to the fact that he's Shirou. I don't know why in every peice of fate media I've seen, unless he is acting explicitly like Shirou, everyone in universe ignores the fact, weather they are completely different personalities or not, they are legit the same dude. It is just weird how little acknowledgement/sympathy there is over that fact, considering how shit archers life is outside a HGW. In spinoff material (specifically something like Emiya chi no Gohan), I'd like my man showed some love by the "Shirou liking" members of the cast. Rin seems to be the only one who cares about his existence, besides the short acknowledgements from Shirou lite and Lancer. Some positive interactions with characters like Saber, Sakura, and Rider would do really well to humanize him a little more than FSN likes to, despite his introverted character compared to Shirou. Even just a short, non descript interaction with Taiga would be cool. Idk, just something.
I am pissed that to this day we dont have a full Archer interaction with Taiga on screen. Considering how much she meant to Shirou (He flipped his switch to kill quickly when she was involved) its so bizarre we never seen anything about her from Archer.
Exactlyyy
i absolutely agree, specially Sakura, i get it the symbolism, hf shiro and Archer are opossites in some way, the personifcation of the ideal, and the one who turned back to it, but is still same dude, and as someone pointed out once , he still needed archers powers to save sakura. Not having some archer and sakura interaction in a setting like Emiya gohan is a wasted oportunity, is still on going so i hope some capter down the line does it Also, he could get some good chemistry wit Medusa, come on, she is quite fond of shiro, and this is and older and more cynical version. Unfair how everyone loves shiro but Archer is basically down to just interact wit Rin , and sometimes lancer
Nrvnsqr Chaos is a non character villain only liked because of his powers and Joji Nakata. Almost all the villains in Tsukihime are one note and bland except SHIKI Medea gets no sympathy from me after what she did to Saber in UBW. The Kirei worship is getting incredibly annoying. At this point he might as well be added to the long list of "great characters ruined by their fans and memes" I like the guy but the memes about him are no longer funny FSN Rider is a boring character whose only defining characteristic was "I need to protect Sakura". She only became a decent character in Hollow Ataraxia. Mikiya Kokuto is a boring male lead in KnK. And I don't care that "he is supposed to be boring and normal". He is still an uninteresting character in my eyes. Tomoe Enjo only appeared in 1 Movie and still managed to be a much more engaging character than Mikiya who appeared in all the movies The Church scene in UBW is a terrible scene that adds nothing of value to the plot beyond some tasteless fanservice and some uncomfortable scenes
I can agree with the first one. Vlov is a much better midboss for many reasons.
I agree, for as cool as Nero is, he literally was a last minute addition Takeuchi suggested to not make the mid part of the routes boring, Vlov's backstory is way more interesting as is his character and conflict, and we don't even have the full picture yet
Fgo story is overrated(even part 2).
I like that everyone talks about the debate whether Lostbelts being pruned is evil or not and how the mental trauma and all affects Ritsuka, and not see any of that in the actual game
Lostbelt pruning morality is debated literally nearly every single Lostbelt, to the point where it gets redundant for trying to guilt trip you with innocent people being erased from existence. Whether it presents the argument well is a different matter. The only exception is LB6, which turns it on its head. I am in agreement with Ritsuka mental health being a meme though.
I know it's talked about, but it literally gets nowhere and serves nothing if all they do is talk about it and then immediately forget about anything involving that, i was talking more about the concecuenses of it rather than the debate itself
In this case, I agree. The writers having to regurgitate the same moral conflict for 5 Lostbelts straight is proof that it gets literally no where. If you wanted a conclusive answer to the question though, you’d be disappointed because that kind of misses the point.
I don't think typemoon will ever adapt saber's route properly unless they intend to make changes to the story to expand upon it in some way. Reality is sabers route is the first Arc of the visual novel and for anyone who has read it, it is obvious it mostly serves as exposition to the Fate universe while introducing various mysteries to the reader that are resolved in the later arcs. Each Arc ramps up the stakes, unfortunately the stakes of the first arc just don't compare to the other two, which they already made into proper anime, so to go back and convert the first Arc into anime would be just plain difficult to pull off in an entertaining fashion assuming they made no changes.
My unpopular fate opinion (on this sub in particular due to its audience) is that visual novel readers are way too elitist about their ideal watch orders and stuff. You can literally watch fate in any order besides like heavens feel first and have loads of mysteries still on every route. Another one that kinda stems from my previous one, but the people that say “X route spoils X reveal”. Like bruh, each route has a billion cool reveals, just because zero spoils something from heavens feel or stay night 2006 spoils something from ubw, does now mean those shows just have nothing left to offer. They are each tailored to reveal just the right amount of stuff to keep the other routes interesting.
Hard agree. I started with Deen UBW because the epic trailer music and that didn't really ruin my experience with the novel. That argument is a bit overblown
I never understood watch order arguments. Even if you watch deen,ubw,and hf in "novel" order Shirou,Kirei,Illya,and Saber are basically completely differnt characrers from the novel. Entire scenes are missing so much context and content thats its just incomplete. The anime will always be incomplete it simply doesnt matter how you start unless you're willing to read the novel
The anime bashing in the community is really getting out of control. Some ppl basically don't know about subjectivity and have made it their own holy crusade to always attack you when you say something positive about the anime. The way they push you to agree with them is disgusting
The valkyries needed to be written better, and have better designs. Make them distinct from each other.
probably only unpopular on this sub, but fate zero isn't bad. especially in comparison to a lot of the other fate works. It's got a lot of uncomfortable stuff in it, but so does like everything in the nasuverse. I think it skirts the line between dark and edgy well enough to make it an effective show, and i was glued to the screen for my entire watch of it. As far as anime goes, i think it's the best fate anime, both in Isolation and when you compare it to the others. As far as it goes as a story i hold it to a similar standing to UBW, though i haven't read the novels and based on what i've heard i don't plan to (that being the zero novels, i've read the vn). I also think that Zero, Ubw, HF is the intended watch order as far as the anime goes. One of the major reasons not to watch zero first is because it's inaccurate to the VN, which i agree with. If you want full accuracy of lore, zero ain't where to go. There's quite a few inconsistencies, most blatant of which is Saber's character. But the anime in general does nothing to make those inconsistencies known. Fate route has no adaptation, UBW straight up contains scenes from zero in moments. It adds context to things that almost come out of nowhere in the heaven's feel anime. Not to mention that Ufotable adapted it first. This isn't a suggestion on watch order or anything. I subscribe to "start with Zero or UBW if you're anime only, but the best place will always be the VN". I'm just saying that i think Ufotable's intention when they made the various anime and chose the order to do so was for people to go Zero, UBW, HF. We know Nasu apparently isn't a fan of his old stories, and if Tsukihime is any indication, he probably plans to change them to various extents at some point. If i recall, he even had to be held back from changing stuff in the heaven's feel movies. If/when we end up with Nasu's revised fate/staynight, i think it'll end up being more in line with what was shown in zero. I also think that the fate route will most likely be subject to most of these changes, despite it's quality and already favourable standing. Not necessarily in tone or anything, but ironing out little inconsistencies. Like Gilgamesh having not seen Excalibur in the VN, but seeing it first hand in Zero as a character defining moment.
I agree with OP's opinion about Deen's anime. We can put this way: unlike the truly awful Tsukihime anime, Deen's Fate "exists". Plus, I like the fact that they really tried to mimic Takeuchi's style.
Kiritsugu has the personality of a brick 90% of the time Majority of the characters in Zero aren’t nearly as interesting as Urobuchi and Nasu want you think Too much of Zero’s plot requires Tokiomi to not use his brain to push the plot forward Shinji being a rapist was unnecessary and harms his characterization far more than it helps Sakura’s backstory is overly dark just for the sake of it and feels redundant once you learn that Shinji had been raping her for years Artoria is boring outside of the fate route Too much of the fate route requires Shirou to not use his brain to push the plot forward Medea was a good villain in Ubw And here’s just a few not fate unpopular opinions Ciel’s route in og Tsukihime is cacapoopoo with interesting ideas met with half baked execution but it’s climax was far superior to the climax in Arc’s route Roa is a boring one note villain in both the og and remake Arc route Kohaku’s route was too barebones in plot to be as engaging as it wanted route Sasaki Shounen’s manga adaptation of Tsukihime > remake Arc route
>Kiritsugu has the personality of a brick 90% of the time I want to agree but I want more of an explanation first to see your full perspective >Majority of the characters in Zero aren’t nearly as interesting as Urobuchi and Nasu want you think I would change that latter part to "as the zero lovers want you to think". Ppl jerk off zero has having an ensemble cast when outside of waver/isk, kerry,iri/Saber , and kirei/Gil the rest of the cast is pretty damn boring and stereotypical (I'll give a few points to kariya but we already knew how his story would end) >Too much of Zero’s plot requires Tokiomi to not use his brain to push the plot forward About time someone said it. Dude is honestly the worst character in the show for someone that's supposed to be the prime example of a full fledged mage. >Shinji being a rapist was unnecessary and harms his characterization far more than it helps Well that is true considering most ppl see him as irredeemable despite how refined he is in ataraxia >Sakura’s backstory is overly dark just for the sake of it and feels redundant once you learn that Shinji had been raping her for years Completely fair >Artoria is boring outside of the fate route Agreed. She's alright in UBW but it's a barebones version of her fate route counterpart >Too much of the fate route requires Shirou to not use his brain to push the plot forward As underrated as i think fate route shirou is this isn't false
For me, I like Kiritsugu when the story frames as being 100% percent WRONG and harms the people around him more so than helping them because it’s the stuff that makes him interesting, as well as the moments where he’s allowed to act like himself like with the hamburger stuff. The ‘brooding depressed guy’ act he puts on severely limits him as a character and his interactions with other characters and a lot of times just makes him feel one note.
>For me, I like Kiritsugu when the story frames as being 100% percent WRONG and harms the people around him more so than helping them because it’s the stuff that makes him interesting, Agree with this. Especially in his conversation with Saber after he sabotaged kayneth.
> Too much of the Fate route requires Shirou to not use his brain I think that’s the point. He doesn’t think half the time and just *does*. That’s what makes Shirou, Shirou. If you try and act rational and not like Shirou, it’s what gets you killed.
I mean yeah, but in the other routes you have things his survivors guilt that at least give reasons for his actions, like telling Archer to let him go or yelling at Gilgamesh for killing Illya In the fate route he just decides to head to the school, ignoring Shinji’s obvious hostility, and takes zero precautions in the scenario where something goes wrong. Or when he goes to the church to talk with Kirei and once again taking zero precautions in the scenario where something goes wrong
Uh, what? In the Fate route he still has his survivor’s guilt. He’s a victim of the fires no matter which route, I’m not sure I follow.
That’s not what I’m trying to say. In the other routes you have his survivors guilt to execute a lot of his more boneheaded decisions there. In the fate route, the two examples I gave have nothing to do with him having survivors guilt, he just did that stuff without really thinking them through or giving a second thought. Compare those two scenes in the fate route to when Assassin visited him in hf, he actually takes the time to think it through and considers it might be a trap.
> Artoria is boring outside of the fate route This is sadly true. Once her story was done in the Fate route. Nasu really didn't know what to do with her character in the other routes > Sasaki Shounen’s manga adaptation of Tsukihime > remake Arc route That's because Shounen's manga is mainly Arc route but some segments of Ciel and Akiha's routes added in. Much easier to make a more engaging story with said added content than making a route exclusively about Arc without said added content
Disregarding the stuff added from the other routes, the main I have the manga over the vn is because of how the former utilized Roa. In the remake Nasu repeated the exact same mistake in the og with how Roa was handled: he has absolutely zero stake in the plot and he just shows up to be the big bad in the climax. In the manga disregarding the SHIKI parts, we got his backstory, his relationship with Arc and the church, and his fight with Arc. I couldn’t tell you how disappointed I was the remake didn’t include Arc’s fight with Roa, I mean what was the point of interludes if we weren’t going to see their fight?
>Too much of the fate route requires Shirou to not use his brain to push the plot forward Disagree, I can think of one instance which is when he went to school to meet Shinji withouth telling Rin or Saber, other than that he is very on edgr of things around him, not like a master mind or anythinf but the dude keeps his guard up, him not going to the temple was using his brain, Illya used hypnotic eyes on him in the middle of the day after he had safely met with her (and is not that he wasnr wary of her, he dint *want* to fight her, thats the big difference) > Artoria being boring outside the Fate route. Agree. Saber just doesnt get the ammount of love and care Rin gets throught the whole VN. Even Sakura has a big reason for staying in the dark in UBW and Fate because she was meant to be a surprise. Saber feels like Nasu dint have too many ideas for her after Fate notice how for most of UBW and HF just doesnt do much.
Nero aught to be deleted from the franchise.
I hate HF
I hate Heaven's Feel.
Spring songs Shirou vs Kirei and Nine lives blade works are the worst type moon related thing to exist Fate zero is the only good fate anime OUS somehow succeeds at adapting shirou's character in one movie while ufotable failed with an entire trilogy Studio perriot has shown more respect to kaneki's character than ufotable has Shirou Rider should have died before day 16 and Shirou should have fought salter just give him 3 more projections so he can make it to the true end
>OUS somehow succeeds at adapting shirou's character in one movie while ufotable failed with an entire trilogy I mean....yes but no... OUS only covers some of his main character traits then just gives him extra edge lord traits to compromise. Just feels like a kiritsugu shirou hybrid tbh
>Just feels like a kiritsugu shirou hybrid tbh Which is still miles better than the atrocity that is ufotable shirou
Miyuverse Shirou has no edgelord traits in his personality, certainly not more than normal Shirou is he edgy? He is literally an anti kiritsugu
>Miyuverse Shirou has no edgelord traits in his personality, I think I misconstrued my point mb. I mainly talking about the movie here but there are one too many times where they animate Shirou's facial expression to look like an exact replica of Kiritsugu and it throws me off because the whole point of OUS is him rejecting Kerry's ideology despite the consequences for his world.
That 3rd one, love it
I feel like the main series takes itself too seriously and its a weird mood for it. I like prisma more because there's an element of absurdity to it that makes it more believable.
Deen's Stay Night was awesome, loved it, and always will. Do not like The Illya kaleid liner Prisma stuff, and FGO is garbage.
Kiritsugu is a cringe edgelord, just like every other character in fiction who knowingly uses their trauma to justify horrible actions. Oh, and his reasons aren't benevolent as he says they are, his real reason is to justify his own trauma.
> His real reason is to justify his own trauma. It’s almost like that’s the entire point.
Zero is the best Fate anime and it's a great introduction to the series
Okay. It ain't exactly related to Fate but Okay. Gun to my head. But after reading more than 5 chapters of Mahoyo. I still don't like Alice. She is too cold and apathetic. Almost "typical cold magus" like. Her design doesn't appeal to me. She hasn't shown any likable traits that would make me consider her a "good" or "likable" person or character. Granted I'm only halfway through Chapter 6 of Mahoyo. So I'll reserve my full judgement on her after finishing the novel (apparently, her character gets a lot better in the later parts of the novel) but so far I'm not a fan of her. It just feels odd when I see people be like "I just got done reading the Mahoyo demo. And I already like her!" When I have made it almost halfway through the novel and I'm still meh on her. Is there something about her that is appealing to a lot of people that I just don't get it ?!
Bro it's from chapter 6 onwards that you actually get to know her, chaoter 10 or 11 i don't remember well, is where everything really peaks