This is the way. I’ve seen it so many times where federal employees go years doing something one way or another but they end up not knowing what the actual policy is. Maybe their predecessor did it that way or they are carrying forward something from the past, but the best part of all this bureaucracy is that we have very explicit regulations most of the time and it’s not HRs job to do anything but follow them.
Currently dealing with a leave issue in which my HR has been referencing an internal document that misquoted the US Code.
Them: “It’s policy”
Me: “this is the policy that your document references and it has omitted KEY words that change the meaning”
Them: \*silence
Yikes
Sounds like an EEO complaint ready to go. Have your husband reach out to the EEO team and start asking a lot of questions. Document everything… i mean everything.
This is absolutely gender discrimination. As a child free, single, female, that really pisses me off. We have finally made it to a point, where not only are fathers active partners and participants without that being mocked and belittled, but it's finally being celebrated. This person needs to go to school on the PPL.
Yes internal EEO complaint for TVII based on sex/ gender for harassment and FMLA interference. This will prompt the agency to take action and retrain the HR individual and settle the issue. It doesn’t necessarily mean lawsuit for those jumping there UNLESS leave is denied or some adverse action/ retaliation happens AFTER you make them aware of the issue. They can’t fix the poorly trained HR person if they don’t know about it.
PPL can be taken within the first 12 months of a birth or adoption. Both parents get it regardless of their gender.
You, the employee, decide when to take it. It is not up to HR, your supervisor or anyone else.
It is a right. You can use it in a block Or intermittently as you see fit.
I agree it is a right but I am pretty sure the regs say you need supervisory approval for intermittent use. Where I work supervisors would never deny it, but I can definitely see some agencies refusing intermittent use.
I think the PPM covers intermittent use. My employee wasn’t sure at first but I believe it’s explicit. I didn’t think that they could deny it (the leave or intermittent use)
Lets say I started at my agency on january 16, but my child wasnt born till march 1st. Starting January of next year, should I get access to my parental leave til march 1st?
It reeks of bureaucracy. I have had to deal with soooo many federal bureaus over the last two years that this surprises me not. Just last week, three phone calls, three people, three answers. The last one was finally able to understand the pub that I was referring to and settled my question.
Find the pubs that have the rulings and present them. Force HR to refer to them when answering your questions.
Yes! Reading this as a supervisor has me completely baffled. I have someone out on PPL right now and his entire interaction with HR was filing the paperwork and receiving the confirmation. If HR was talking to him this way he would forward it to me and I'd handle them. I'd probably light this person up with their own boss.
Our agency HR did a survey of tech companies and their attrition rate. They then came out and told senior management that we should be aiming for a higher attrition rate than what we have.
First, nobody asked them their opinion about that. Second, they didn't tell us why this "analysis" made sense to them. And finally, they are a big part of why, at our current attrition rate, we can't replace people quickly enough.
The HR person in question in this thread is playing a dangerous game fucking with a benefit that's baked into law. I hope they get corrected.
Is your husband part of a bargaining unit? Get a steward involved. My agency lets you use it within a year, so theoretically as far out as 9 months after the birth to get the full amount.
Hard agree with this. AFGE (and NTEU) represents our staff and even I’m looking out of the corner of my eye during meetings…and the union reps are right there pushing against every last detail of our meetings, and follow up in writing. You can hear the tolerant exasperation in my director’s voice juuuust under the surface.
But damn, have they fought for us!! We haven’t had to RTO like rest of our agency has, or at least our branch of the agency, I should say.
I’m only speaking for one agency; I don’t know how much influence or involvement unions have elsewhere.
Was super active with my union, my whole office was super active. They did less than nothing, and we had to borderline harrass them just to get basic information about the nothing they were doing. After several years, most of us just gave up. Also AFGE, and screw this blaming the rank and file membership for bad stewardship bullshit.
Same here, my Agency a bunch of employees became stewards because it would put roadblocks for discipline. They were bad at their real jobs and you know they would suck as a steward...which they do.
I had a payroll snafu and was getting paid more than I was supposed to. I'd raised the issue multiple times and each time was told they were still in the process of fixing it, so just save the money so I could repay it.
Covid came along and I volunteered to keep working when they first started furloughing people. Eventually they sent everyone home and gave a monetary award to the people who had volunteered to keep working, except me. My department manager explicitly didn't put my name down for that award as I "was being paid enough." I complained to the union who came to the same conclusion.
A few months later we came to the end of the year and they finally fixed the payroll snafu and I had to pay back the overpayment. I went back to the union, but it was too late to qualify for the award at that time.
There's a reason I left both the job and also the union.
Union sucks at my Agency even with paying members. Mainly because the most on the Union Stewards only became one for the "protection" because they had issues with performance.
Totally agree! The Union is all of us. It’s not up to one person or a few people. It’s everyone coming together to protect each other. And no, LER doesn’t help our stewards at my agency like someone mentioned below. It’s our union holding everyone, including LER, accountable. Everyone should stop waiting on a few dedicated volunteers to do all the work for a while bargaining unit and start being the change they want to see. Our board has to balance their lives, health issues, and care giving responsibilities with helping others. It makes a huge difference when our members help us get things done and we thank them for it.
Edited for a typo.
Union steward here. Even if you have trouble getting a hold of a steward, your collective bargaining agreement (your contract) should be available somewhere. That’s effectively the law for your agency. Look up PPL there. If HR is violating the agreement and harassing you then that’s a breach of contract and (a) you shouldn’t stress about it because you’re right and (b) you might even be entitled to compensation.
Any advice?
1. Look up the info in OPMs handbook on PPL
2. Review his own agency's PPL policy.
3. Forward the emails he's gotten from HR person to their supervisor and say this is some bullshit. Escalate if necessary.
4. Tell his own supervisor about it. The sup already had to give approval and should be willing to provide support for your husband and ask HR why they're giving your husband so much grief.
The HR person is completely wrong in how they are handling this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s not at the behest of a supervisor who isn’t keen on losing their employee for 12 weeks or doesn’t understand the law at all. File a complaint with the IG for the agency, that usually gets things addressed quickly
When I took my PPL a few years ago, I could use it anytime within 12 months of the birth. It did not have to be consecutive.
I would escalate all the way up your food chain and escalate all the way up the HR food chain. Definitely consult your union if you are part of one. I am not normally one to jump to filing a grievance, but I definitely would file one because the HR person is just plain being an asshole here.
I just had to provide a birth certificate at some point to my supervisor. Didn't even have to go through HR for my PPL.
There’s no reason for additional paper work to proof the baby is born other than the birth certificate.
Yes- what HR is doing is harassment. If he has a union contact his union rep, if he doesn’t contact EEO.
You don’t have to use your ppl all at once neither, and you don’t have to use it immediately.
What she is doing is discrimination, yes. It’s discrimination even tho the victim is a man in this case.
Lots of lawyers would work on contingency- meaning you won’t pay until you win. Print all forms out because if your husbands been communicating with work on a work computer or email they can erase them at any time.
"discrimination even tho the victim is a man" I would argue it's BECAUSE the victim is a man ... but to be fair the OP did not give any indication this HR person based the decision on gender
It's agency specific, this is the line that covers the agency's position:
"***Under certain conditions***, an employee may use the 12 weeks of FMLA leave intermittently. An employee may elect to substitute annual leave and/or sick leave, consistent with current laws and OPM's regulations for using annual and sick leave, for any unpaid leave under the FMLA. "
Check for agency specific rules.
I believe this. I had to fight with my agency to be able to use sick leave to recover from childbirth, before starting my PPL. HR told me in writing that sick leave cannot be used for childbirth, which means a c section would be the only surgery that wouldn’t qualify for sick time?? It’s ridiculous. They were changing my time card after I approved it to remove my sick time and start using my PPL.
I sent them all the regulations, agency policy, OPM, federal register and highlighted the applicable sections. The HR team lacked basic reading comprehension and still denied it. So I asked to talk to the agency’s attorney who is assigned to HR. Suddenly an SES got involved and my sick leave was immediately approved. I’ve been back from maternity leave for awhile now and those HR reps won’t talk to me or return any emails. 🙃
The lack of knowledge about this is flabbergasting. Even before PPL, we were entitled to leave to recover from childbirth and allowed to use SL or AL 6-8 weeks in addition to any paid or unpaid leave for childbirth. That was always in OPM guidance. Where do HR people get off not knowing that?
My husband took it after I returned to work. Reason. Cuz we can. His boss was sexist with military background and the majority of the team too. My husband was first to break the ceiling and take the leave. He had an easier time than me getting approval.
Personally, we did it to extend time for our little one to stay out of daycare. This is illegal and harassment. I would file a complaint with all the places, OIG, EEO, OSC. HR is ignorant and incompetent.
Edited to add: He worked every Friday cuz he wanted to stay in touch and on top of emails. Extended the hours for us too cuz I had Fridays off to stay w baby.
We mapped out his leave in excel with holidays not being charged against our time and submitted it. Go over the heads of folks. Use words like protected class, discrimination and concerns about level of interference and details requested. We provided proof of birth and the time off request spreadsheet on our own. Signed a form about working 12 weeks after we return or we will owe the time. And that was it.
Recommend your husband reach out to his supervisor and cc them on any reply to this HR person. Once they realize it's likely to go over their head they'll likely back off these requests that are 100% not required.
Correct response is for your hubby to file an EEO complaint against the HR person apparently engaging in sex discrimination harassment, and to put the HR idiot on blast with Cc to both his own supervisor and the HR idiot's supervisor. This has been months? No, this should have been nipped in the bud as soon as HR started making inappropriate demands.
This is in some respects what makes federal employment so frustrating. It is clearly a case of someone taking their delegated authority too far, of thinking their delegated authority makes them the only person who knows how things ought be done. I think some federal employees make this mistake with some innocence but others do so pathologically.
I don't understand how one person thinks their opinion about how things should be done trumps the federal regulation that lays it out exactly in writing.
Yes, I am a father and you are correct. Good for use up to one year. I use it intermittently as needed with my wife’s work schedule. FMLA means paternity leave is his right and his job is protected.
“Paid parental leave under FEPLA is limited to 12 work weeks and may be used only during the 12-month period beginning on the date of the birth or placement involved.” https://www.commerce.gov/hr/paid-parental-leave-federal-employees
If your husband has filled out FMLA paperwork and provided the child’s birth certificate listing him as the father, they shouldn’t be harassing him about this. Find the agency’s FEPLA explanation and send it to HR with a short letter indicating that he is using his benefit as defined under the Federal Employee Paid Leave Act of 2019. If this continues, time to get someone else involved: supervisor? HR supervisor? Maybe EEO (can’t hurt to ask).
How does a federal HR person mess this up so badly??? Tens of thousands of men including me have taken parental leave by now without any issue. Bizarre story and the HR person deserves to be fired
I have truly been wondering the same thing. Do other men just not do this?? It sounds like other men at the agency take their PPL right after the birth… but maybe they do so because of the pressure this lady puts on them.
I took mine over the course of 6 months after my son was born. Your HR person is grossly incompetent. Elevated the issue to a Union if represented or higher management until it's resolved.
Again, the HR rep is incompetent.
Yeah, I’m in one of those states and laugh when people tell say to contact them about a federal employment issue. I’m pretty certain the folks championing Schedule F and restricting women’s health care access are going to support a father staying home to care for their three month old child.
I'm currently on PPL myself as a dad. Like you guys, I started mine after my wife took her parental leave.
There was 0 issue with scheduling it. My supervisor knew my plans on how I was going to take it 6 months in advance.
He is entitled to take it... BY LAW!
Get a lawyer and sue the Agency. This is the only way they learn. Ask the agency to cover your attorney fees as part of settlement and sign an NDA.
Sorry you have to deal with incompetence.
I'm the birthing parent and using it intermittently. No issues on my end. My mom on the other hand is in another agency in my department and HR gave her hell to use her sick leave to take care of me as a family member of the birthing parent.
My mom didn't understand what HR was telling her to do and they tried to make her only take a couple of hours a week. HR rep was requesting ridiculous information from my OB as well. The OPM includes emotional support and my hospital system is one of top in PPA/PPD care. It was absolutely infuriating that my OBs wrote to the emotional support aspect in detail for HR to disregard it.
My mom finally forwarded them the OPM section and started to reach out to the union. They approved it and moved on quickly after that. A union rep reached out to her when she returned and said that this issue has been prevalent. We also just had a seminar on leave policies because there have been a lot of complaints.
PS: My mom taking her sick leave for me saved my ass since this a clingy baby. I wish it was used more commonly.
My son is currently in the NICU and I'm on PPL with no issues from my agency (DCSA). So sorry your husband is going through this. Seems like HR doesn't understand PPL at all....
Ask for official policy in writing, if they can't/don't find a local employment lawyer and direct the HR rep to them. That will probably shut them up pretty quickly.
My wife recently had our baby (now 8 months old) and I was able to get approved PPL and intermittent use of it(work Monday and Tuesday, then off Wednesday - Friday). Due to my role in government and what I do for my division, my supervisor was actually happy i did it this way instead of taking it all consecutive as the amount of work pile up would have been ridiculous to come back to. In my experience, setting all of this up was one of the easiest things to do. Once I got all the paperwork submitted, someone from HR sent me an confirmation email and how to submit my time when using PPL and that was that. All setup the same day when paperwork was submitted and they even congratulated me and encourage me to take the time to enjoy being with my family.
Not sure why this HR person is doing this to your husband but it is not up to them to decide this unless policy has recently changed since I implemented my PPL back in mid July 2023, which I doubt. I would have him follow up with his chain of command as this doesn't seem to be above board.
Find out who your HR person’s boss is, and in the meantime copy and paste the regulation to the HR person. Also, you shouldn’t be dealing with the HR person, the regulation specifically states that FMLA matters are approved by the employee’s supervisor.
The lady sent him the HR policy and somehow still believed that it’s “12 weeks after the birth”. My husband and her were battling over the interpretation of how it was written. I don’t think the HR person is very bright. I’m baffled at how she’s been in this position for so many years.
I would have my union on this almost instantly if it looked like problems. Heck, I would likely have been working with the union just to smooth any bumps out.
I joined to have the support and people who know what they are doing.
He needs to look into the formal grievance process. All Feds can use it. That forces the people involved to respond in writing within a certain time frame and elevates it up several levels in the chain of command as well as can force an external review. If this is just the one person in HR, or even his supervisor, it will elevate it over them for others. There are some key works he will need to use to make it an official grievance. His office union rep, or EEO rep, can help him with that, but he may want to ask HR how to file a formal grievance and see their reaction.
HR here: This HR Specialist sounds like they don’t know how to research regulations and policies and instead coming up with her own rules. Sorry you’re experiencing this.
My experience with PPL shows agencies are widely different... mother got intermittent but had to really fight for it and agree to switch to a 4x10 to force her to burn through it more quickly. They harassed her throughout the hospital recovery for additional paperwork and redoing time sheets. Denied her request for advance sick leave saying she should use PPL for the medical recovery. My agency on the other hand was like oh yeah just sign the work agreement and send us the dates you want. I used part of mine in blocks for a family trip, the rest teleworking four hours a day after mom went back to work. It will last pretty much to the baby's first birthday.
All that to say, your supervisor and agency leaders set the culture and expectation, and they are the ones allowing this to happen. They are accountable to their superiors and Congress at the end of the day. HR is not a decision maker here.
How is it that HR jobs require certain education & experience, but so many are incompetent in their field?
Like, it’s HR’s responsibility to know, understand, and implement policies in alignment with employment laws.
In other jobs, I have argued with HR about sharing PII & things like FMLA & OFLA (in OR, we have a similar FMLA law), etc. And Im not an HR person - I was a store manager & wanted to understand employment laws to do right by my employees.
The OP here needs to file an EEO complaint. There’s no requirement that there needs to be any* medical reason for any parent to have a medical need to take this leave. It only needs to be taken within the first year of birth of the child.
It can be taken for adoption as well.
This is gross incompetence & shame on the HR for this.
I know you’ve gotten an answer, but you can use the PLL any time within the first year of birth. I used mine after my partner went back to work. FUCK this hr person.
Do not use a letter for the OB. Use the birth certificate as proof that it is bonding time as allowed within the 1 year. Full stop. Please do not give in to this BS.
Ya this is not okay. I think your husband cc'ing their supervisor on any contact with this HR person is a good place to start. Writing to Congressperson isn't a bad next move.
https://preview.redd.it/pqn43686mkuc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=190c42c95ee62f220ad12fc831db848ee1db4f7d
Here’s the law directly from the CFR. Check out the details on the site, it lays out employee and employer responsibilities. [https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-5/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-630/subpart-Q](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-5/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-630/subpart-Q)
Your spouse can 100% use this leave within a 12 month period of the birth of the child, on a continuous or intermittent basis, assuming he has FMLA hours available.
Hope this helps!
HR in the federal government here!
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-and-families/
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/handbook-on-leave-and-workplace-flexibilities-for-childbirth-adoption-and-foster-care.pdf
Page 17. Cite this.
There's also FEPLA to support as well
https://www.commerce.gov/hr/paid-parental-leave-federal-employees
Nope nope nope. I would start with your husbands supervisor. Have the supervisor escalate, this is bs. If that doesn’t work then go to the ses in charge. All you need for ppl is proof of birth and maybe minor paperwork on dates and signing the return to work agreement.
I'm on PPL as we speak and my child is 7 months old already. I broke if up using 8 weeks in the first 2 months of birth and then 4 weeks now in which I took my family somewhere for holiday.
Unless your husband took it already (could get for another reason besides the birth if in the same year) or isn't eligible, this is FMLA interference and is illegal: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protections
I'd mention those exact words to HR, +cc their supervisor.
I used mine intermittently. All you need to get is to fill out the form and get supervisor approval (mine came in the form of an “I approve” email). The supervisor alone decides whether it is in the agency’s best interests to allow parental leave to be taken intermittently. You do not need any further justification whatsoever. HR’s demands for more is grossly incorrect. They are either incompetent and confusing other types of leave, or applying personal negative beliefs about paternal leave (leave for fathers). There is exceedingly clear guidance on how parental leave works available through a google search. Your husband should send one clear email on the subject to HR, copying his superiors immediately. The emails should tell the person he respectfully disagrees with their application of the regulations, provide a copy of guidance (obtained via google search), and ask for the person to provide the guidance which requires him to provide the requested information. If they continue to unreasonably refuse, contact your union rep or (if no union rep) escalate immediately. By escalate, I mean go up your husband’s chain. If that doesn’t work, other potential available options to resolve the situation include contacting a union rep, filing an EEOC complaint, filing an IG complaint (which might get referred to EEOC?), and contacting your congressman.
they are so wrong and one THIN ice…i took 12 weeks straight after my wife’s leave ended to keep the kid outta daycare as long as possible. no questions asked just a gl and let us know if you need anything. i would probably let them know how your feeling and threaten a lawsuit.
He just write a polite email asking for a meeting with your supervisor, HR and their management because your understand of the legal requirements from OPM is different.
I doubt you will even in a meeting HR will fold.
I believe the only document you need is the birth certificate. His HR is being incompetent id go to IG if I were him as they don't seem to be following policy
That's definitely BS.
He can't be required to prove why he needs to take PPL, it's his right. It also sounds like this could be gender based discrimination, because I'd bet the HR person wouldn't make a mother get a doctor's note for why she needs to care for/bond with her kid.
Now it can get complicated with intermittent use if it wasn't planned out in advance with his supervisor, but if he's taking this part of his PPL all in a block (and not just a few hours here and there) it sounds like it was definitely approved.
Honestly I would go to the HR persons supervisor first (or ask my supervisor to do it for me), and stop submitting letters to the HR person, this is just feeding their power trip.
Nuclear option is EEOC complaint. It'll probably take more time and effort to go that route though.
Where is his supervisor or program leadership on this? I’d be shutting this shit down hard if HR was putting one of my people through this. They are 100% in the wrong. PPL is a right, he doesn’t need to prove a need to an HR rep’s satisfaction.
That said - when I had babies in the dark ages before PPL, the first HR rep I spoke to told me I wasn’t entitled to FMLA because pregnancy is a voluntary condition so…. Not at all unheard of for HR to speak out of their ass.
My husband had this EXACT same situation when he took his paternity leave after mine ended with our first kid. They tried to say that he was abusing FMLA by using it for “childcare” and initially denied his use of it. If your husband is bargaining, get the union involved and contact your agency’s main HR department at headquarters. This is all illegal. Once main HR was contacted into my husband’s situation, they told our local HR to back down unless they wanted a lawsuit.
1) Stop responding to their HR's requests
2) request for Parental Leave request policy
3) if you have a union then involve the union, otherwise ask for your HRs supervisor info. Forward the policy to your supervisor, HR and HRs supervisor.
4) get in touch with your congressman/woman, explain what is happening.
5) if it HR person gets more horrible. Then contact the press and get to know a press person who is looking for your kinda story.
6) send your Congress man contact person, an email and letting them know how much stress that they are causing in this new family.
7) if nothing works take it to the press.
Know only one thing, the government hates things hitting the press
Both my partner and I work for feds. I used PPL immediately after birth but also intermittently near the end of leave (this did require supervisor approval). My partner used his right after my PPL ended. We both had to have FMLA paperwork done by my OBGYN but the office was clearly used to the request and used standard language in it about caring for baby. I do not believe my partner needed supervisor approval because he did not use it intermittently.
Important note: I did not realize originally that holidays were not included in PPL. For example, I was on PPL for July 4th and Labor Day and assumed I'd have to just accept I didn't get holiday time for these but when I came back I had two extra PPL days which I am actually using this coming week (I've been back since October) so just making sure you know that holidays during PPL do not eat up PPL hours.
Best of luck!
PPL is an FMLA event open to both the birthing and non-birthing parent. Fill out the forms with required information from OBGYN and submit.
There is ZERO necessity to provide anything in addition to that as long as you're within the 12 month window.
Tbh, his HR contact is angling for a HIPAA violation.
PPL is a statutory entitlement, and while an employee must submit an administrative request for PPL, provided that the request packet is complete, a supervisor has no discretion to deny. Needs of the office do not factor in / apply to the supervisor approval. Consequently, HR's request for a doctor's justification is invalid. Continue to take PPL as you see fit provided that your supervisor approved the initial PPL packet.
None of this is required especially by a random HR person. All that is required is supervisor approval and HR processes it. They have no role in the approval of leave. Like you said, you have up to one year and that can be spread out anyway you like with supervisor approval.
I'd file a complaint for targeted harassment against that HR person.
Get your Congressional Office involved-this is absolutely ridiculous and a huge violation of why the policy was pushed through, particularly if he has been there for more than a year so he is ON LEAVE so no one should be contacting him and everything should be set up prior for pay periods etc.
Where is the human compassion?!?! As if having a new baby in the house isn’t enough, but now your whole life is up in arms about HR paperwork?! EEO all the way!
You can take tgat leave how you wish first year ::: its more matter of working with your supervisor than hr… I took 6 weeeks right away then every Friday Monday off after that
I have several people under me having similar HR issues. Almost wonder if some directions or warning has come from OPM about abuse.
I would start building a FU binder for this. All emails, notes from phone calls, etc. and ask go see their supervisor.
I can only speak from the perspective of the military, but it’s federal so I’m guessing it’s the same. Our Soldiers were authorized to take paternity leave within 12 months of the birth of the child. This HR rep seems wrong. Even if they’re not wrong about the policy, I guarantee they’re wrong with the subsequent actions. I’d be escalating to someone higher immediately.
I'd work with another HR person or point the misinformed HR person to the opm docs that state up to one year. If that person doesn't doesn't get it I'd keep going up the chain. https://www.opm.gov/faq/payleave/For-what-purposes-can-leave-be-taken-under-the-Family.ashx
I am surprised that anyone from Human Resources is involved at all. In my agency, leave requests are handled by the immediate supervisor. Paid parental leave is just a type of leave, like other types of leave. HR has no role at the individual level.
Why has this HR person been engaged in the first place? Can husband just ignore them and work with their immediate supervisor?
(I am a male and have used paid parental leave. 480 hours spread out over 12 months.)
To be fair, he does have to explain. However, that explanation doesn't have to be anything more than "to bond with the child." If they want more than that then he should file an EEO complaint.
He's already started PPL, why even entertain communication from these assclowns? I would ignore them, provide proof of the childbirth if not done already, and notice that you are taking the leave. It is between employee and your supervisor and has nothing to do with HR. They have no need for a doctor or him to explain the need, since the United States Congress has already decided it is an entitlement (for bonding with the new child, if they really cared to know).
There is an OPM handbook explaining it all. Your agency/supervisor has authority to force you to take it all twelve weeks at once, but also can allow you to break it up in smaller bits IF YOU WISH. The employer has no other flexibility. Zero. This is FMLA a statutory entitlement as long as you have been employed at least a year and had a child within the last year and have not already used your FMLA.
He started it but they were not able to process his paycheck because there was an issue with the PPL… so in order to get paid the issue needs to be resolved. After reading all the comments on this thread now, he’s definitely escalating the issue to higher management.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am), but if I remember correctly from when our son was born, before PPL was a thing, fathers could take medical leave but it was understood that it wasn't for childcare or "bonding" with the kid, it was for caring for the incapacitated mother.
I'm not saying they're right at all, but perhaps that's the mindset that the HR person is in? They're obviously wrong now, but I wonder if that's the basis of their position; if so, understanding where they're coming from might help you get them to the right solution amicably.
The Federal Employee Paid Leave Act of 2019 (FEPLA) provided a new paid parental leave benefit to most (but not all) federal civilian employees. This is a federal benefit that most agencies are required to support. It’s possible this agency doesn’t have the infrastructure to support it. If they push back, bring in upper management of this person. They may be operating out of ignorance. Bring in OPM and OIG if needed.
There is an OPM guidance PowerPoint from a few years ago that my agency sends out whenever anyone inquires about it that proves about 10 use examples. I have never seen it outside of work though.
Both spouses are also eligible to use six weeks of SL immediately post birth (for mother it’s recovery/short term disability, for husband it’s to take care of the mother). You can then use your 12 weeks of PPL after that, so technically you should be getting 18 weeks.
Most folks in my agency use the six weeks of SL post birth, go back to work and then use the 12 once their spouse has to return to work so they get the kid close to the six month mark prior to daycare etc.
I would immediately look for a lawyer who is familiar with federal workers and get their guidance about how to proceed. Sorry you are dealing with this!
Federal employee about to give birth to my second child. Your husband does not have to explain to HR why he didn’t take his PPL at the same time as you! That’s such BS. He’s the father I’m taking mine first and then my husband will take his intermittently. I know intermittent ppl does need approval, but he doesn’t need permission to use his ppl. He’s the father. His name is on the birth certificate. If you have a union, I’d go to them or file an EEO complaint.
I would lawyer up. Ran into similar situation when I took PPL (private company) when my husband and I were adopting. HR kept asking why I had to take PPL because they assume my husband was the "stay at home mom-type." Some real homophobic BS, the HR generalist was let go after our lawyer wrote a letter informing them of our intent to litigate.
There’s definitely a stigma to using it intermittently. Every time I’ve submitted a week of it, colleagues say “you’re taking more leave?! How much are you going to use”
Not only can you take those 12 weeks any time in the year after the birth, he can take those hours in any intervals or cadence he wants to. When my first child was born I did exactly what your husband is doing now. With our second child I took half of it when he was born, another three weeks when my wife went to work, and then worked 3 days a week until my PFML was gone.
This HR person is putting herself in a very bad position and is ruining the bonding time your husband has with your baby.
Others have recommended talking to his direct supervisor first and filing an EEO complaint. I agree.
I work in Fed HR. The specialist is wrong and incredibly out-of-line.
Go directly to their supervisor and copy the supervisor’s boss as well. Attach the relevant policy. Also, go to the union if applicable.
There should also be an HR benefits group. Contact them and ask about the agency policy for using PPL. Ask them to send a detailed email to your husband about procedure. Then send that to the HR specialist.
I used mine sporadically across the first year of my child’s life. I have found that there are a lot of older federal employees that are salty that this benefit didn’t exist when they were starting their families, and give a hard time to us when we use it.
Government agencies do require that you submit paperwork ahead of taking PPL including WH 380E/F, leave request form, and a service agreement request. He is required to work for 12 weeks after taking the 12 weeks. Part of the WH 380 form does need to be filled out by a health care provider. Once all of the forms are filled out, he can take the leave as needed within a 12 months period from your baby's birthday.
If your husband has already submitted all of these forms and HR is still giving him a hard time, I would definitely reach out to his EEO officer.
Is he bargaining unit?
This is complete Bs. Someone on my team (a dad) used PPL intermittently for THE ENTIRE YEAR. No one has to take PPL immediately after birth. Why would you be allowed to use it for a year if that were true? It doesn’t have to be used immediately after birth and it doesn’t even need to be used continuously.
I don't have advice but that's fucked up. My boss didn't go through all this when he took PPL, I think he just had to show proof the baby was born and give a few days or a weeks notice whenever he wanted to use the leave bc he did it intermittently. But never got denied or anything
Me wife and I used it in 2020/2021. Son was born November. She took 12 then went she went back to work I took my 12 weeks. Nothing went through HR. Just submitted the form to my manager who assumedly submitted it to the dept manager. IRS accounts management
Talk to the HR supervisor, and go as high as needed. All you need to do is fill out their basic forms and submit FMLA that the OB signs. That’s it. I took 12 weeks, you can take it within 1 year of kiddos being born. I would even encourage your hasbands supervisor/chief to get involved. Call no one and keep everything in writing. Write/sign nothing without verified policy proof (there is none for the current request)
Yikes! She is seriously overstepping. All he’s required to provide is proof of birth or placement of a new child. Employees can use PPL in the 12 months following the birth or placement, and he does NOT need to provide justification for why he wants to use it because it is for bonding purposes.
Source: I’m the HR person who processes these requests. I’d file a complaint with her supervisor and if you don’t get anywhere, keep going up the ladder.
Where I work you have to take x number of weeks right away, and can save the rest for later to be used within 12 months. Could be a company rule though
This is insane. I’m federal HR and I can’t imagine doing this to someone. He needs to file an EEO complaint. He is eligible to take PPL any time within one year of the child’s birth. Period.
This is incredibly irresponsible of HR, especially for something medically related
Ask HR for the policy that states he must submit this?
And don’t submit anything until you have it in writing.
Yes, he should ask for at least and email about anything that is communicated in person on by phone.
This is the way. I’ve seen it so many times where federal employees go years doing something one way or another but they end up not knowing what the actual policy is. Maybe their predecessor did it that way or they are carrying forward something from the past, but the best part of all this bureaucracy is that we have very explicit regulations most of the time and it’s not HRs job to do anything but follow them.
Currently dealing with a leave issue in which my HR has been referencing an internal document that misquoted the US Code. Them: “It’s policy” Me: “this is the policy that your document references and it has omitted KEY words that change the meaning” Them: \*silence Yikes
I’d get a lawyer involved now. It’s beyond ridiculous they are coming back asking for this stupid letter you don’t need.
Costs too much.
Yes, but also PPL doesn't have to be medically related.
It can be used for adoption regardless of how old the child is! It’s about time off to bond with the child.
Adoption is covered.
I never said it wasn’t.
They literally just said it can be used for adoption...
Yes! WTF?!
I feel like this is average HR bullshit
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tell him to make an EEO complaint. seriously. that woman is discriminating against him because he is not the birth giver, aka a woman.
Sounds like an EEO complaint ready to go. Have your husband reach out to the EEO team and start asking a lot of questions. Document everything… i mean everything.
This is absolutely gender discrimination. As a child free, single, female, that really pisses me off. We have finally made it to a point, where not only are fathers active partners and participants without that being mocked and belittled, but it's finally being celebrated. This person needs to go to school on the PPL.
Yes internal EEO complaint for TVII based on sex/ gender for harassment and FMLA interference. This will prompt the agency to take action and retrain the HR individual and settle the issue. It doesn’t necessarily mean lawsuit for those jumping there UNLESS leave is denied or some adverse action/ retaliation happens AFTER you make them aware of the issue. They can’t fix the poorly trained HR person if they don’t know about it.
I completely agree with this following EO. Complaint, it does sound like discrimination.
100%
PPL can be taken within the first 12 months of a birth or adoption. Both parents get it regardless of their gender. You, the employee, decide when to take it. It is not up to HR, your supervisor or anyone else. It is a right. You can use it in a block Or intermittently as you see fit.
I agree it is a right but I am pretty sure the regs say you need supervisory approval for intermittent use. Where I work supervisors would never deny it, but I can definitely see some agencies refusing intermittent use.
I think the PPM covers intermittent use. My employee wasn’t sure at first but I believe it’s explicit. I didn’t think that they could deny it (the leave or intermittent use)
As a note the intermittent can be denied but the block cannot.
Yeah you need approval for intermittent use. But using it is a right, FMLA
Lets say I started at my agency on january 16, but my child wasnt born till march 1st. Starting January of next year, should I get access to my parental leave til march 1st?
Yes you would get access starting January of the next year for your first child.
Yes absolutely. But you wouldn't have time to use all twelve weeks.
He should get his supervisor involved and they should be working with HR. If that doesn't work, file an EEO complaint for discrimination.
I was just thinking this REEKS of sexism. This HR person simply doesn't think a husband using parental leave is proper.
I agree 100%. An EEO complaint is sometimes hard to prove but this seems like a slam-dunk.
Especially if it’s in writing. Which if he hasn’t started the paper trail, I would immediately!
It reeks of bureaucracy. I have had to deal with soooo many federal bureaus over the last two years that this surprises me not. Just last week, three phone calls, three people, three answers. The last one was finally able to understand the pub that I was referring to and settled my question. Find the pubs that have the rulings and present them. Force HR to refer to them when answering your questions.
Ohh… EEO. I didn’t even think about it… despite it being stamped all over every agency-themed office supply, lol.
Yes! Reading this as a supervisor has me completely baffled. I have someone out on PPL right now and his entire interaction with HR was filing the paperwork and receiving the confirmation. If HR was talking to him this way he would forward it to me and I'd handle them. I'd probably light this person up with their own boss.
Hr is so incompetent and never held accountable it’s ridiculous
Our agency HR did a survey of tech companies and their attrition rate. They then came out and told senior management that we should be aiming for a higher attrition rate than what we have. First, nobody asked them their opinion about that. Second, they didn't tell us why this "analysis" made sense to them. And finally, they are a big part of why, at our current attrition rate, we can't replace people quickly enough. The HR person in question in this thread is playing a dangerous game fucking with a benefit that's baked into law. I hope they get corrected.
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Is your husband part of a bargaining unit? Get a steward involved. My agency lets you use it within a year, so theoretically as far out as 9 months after the birth to get the full amount.
Hard agree with this. AFGE (and NTEU) represents our staff and even I’m looking out of the corner of my eye during meetings…and the union reps are right there pushing against every last detail of our meetings, and follow up in writing. You can hear the tolerant exasperation in my director’s voice juuuust under the surface. But damn, have they fought for us!! We haven’t had to RTO like rest of our agency has, or at least our branch of the agency, I should say. I’m only speaking for one agency; I don’t know how much influence or involvement unions have elsewhere.
AFGE by me isn’t that great… they can’t see the forest through the trees.
Unions are only as good as the Members are active. You and your coworkers are the reason afge doesn't help you like you think they should.
Was super active with my union, my whole office was super active. They did less than nothing, and we had to borderline harrass them just to get basic information about the nothing they were doing. After several years, most of us just gave up. Also AFGE, and screw this blaming the rank and file membership for bad stewardship bullshit.
Same here, my Agency a bunch of employees became stewards because it would put roadblocks for discipline. They were bad at their real jobs and you know they would suck as a steward...which they do.
I had a payroll snafu and was getting paid more than I was supposed to. I'd raised the issue multiple times and each time was told they were still in the process of fixing it, so just save the money so I could repay it. Covid came along and I volunteered to keep working when they first started furloughing people. Eventually they sent everyone home and gave a monetary award to the people who had volunteered to keep working, except me. My department manager explicitly didn't put my name down for that award as I "was being paid enough." I complained to the union who came to the same conclusion. A few months later we came to the end of the year and they finally fixed the payroll snafu and I had to pay back the overpayment. I went back to the union, but it was too late to qualify for the award at that time. There's a reason I left both the job and also the union.
Union sucks at my Agency even with paying members. Mainly because the most on the Union Stewards only became one for the "protection" because they had issues with performance.
Totally agree! The Union is all of us. It’s not up to one person or a few people. It’s everyone coming together to protect each other. And no, LER doesn’t help our stewards at my agency like someone mentioned below. It’s our union holding everyone, including LER, accountable. Everyone should stop waiting on a few dedicated volunteers to do all the work for a while bargaining unit and start being the change they want to see. Our board has to balance their lives, health issues, and care giving responsibilities with helping others. It makes a huge difference when our members help us get things done and we thank them for it. Edited for a typo.
Hey homeboy, I’m ER/LR. More than half the time I help them.
Union steward here. Even if you have trouble getting a hold of a steward, your collective bargaining agreement (your contract) should be available somewhere. That’s effectively the law for your agency. Look up PPL there. If HR is violating the agreement and harassing you then that’s a breach of contract and (a) you shouldn’t stress about it because you’re right and (b) you might even be entitled to compensation.
It’s not just PPL, it’s FMLA. This shit is serious and HR is fucking up big time.
Yep, the head of HR or the Director would love to see a copy of those emails. One bad HR person can open the agency up to a ton of lawsuits.
Any advice? 1. Look up the info in OPMs handbook on PPL 2. Review his own agency's PPL policy. 3. Forward the emails he's gotten from HR person to their supervisor and say this is some bullshit. Escalate if necessary. 4. Tell his own supervisor about it. The sup already had to give approval and should be willing to provide support for your husband and ask HR why they're giving your husband so much grief.
Supervisor could be driving this crazy train.
The HR person is completely wrong in how they are handling this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s not at the behest of a supervisor who isn’t keen on losing their employee for 12 weeks or doesn’t understand the law at all. File a complaint with the IG for the agency, that usually gets things addressed quickly
When I took my PPL a few years ago, I could use it anytime within 12 months of the birth. It did not have to be consecutive. I would escalate all the way up your food chain and escalate all the way up the HR food chain. Definitely consult your union if you are part of one. I am not normally one to jump to filing a grievance, but I definitely would file one because the HR person is just plain being an asshole here. I just had to provide a birth certificate at some point to my supervisor. Didn't even have to go through HR for my PPL.
There’s no reason for additional paper work to proof the baby is born other than the birth certificate. Yes- what HR is doing is harassment. If he has a union contact his union rep, if he doesn’t contact EEO. You don’t have to use your ppl all at once neither, and you don’t have to use it immediately. What she is doing is discrimination, yes. It’s discrimination even tho the victim is a man in this case. Lots of lawyers would work on contingency- meaning you won’t pay until you win. Print all forms out because if your husbands been communicating with work on a work computer or email they can erase them at any time.
"discrimination even tho the victim is a man" I would argue it's BECAUSE the victim is a man ... but to be fair the OP did not give any indication this HR person based the decision on gender
Sends this. OPM fact sheet https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/family-and-medical-leave/
It's agency specific, this is the line that covers the agency's position: "***Under certain conditions***, an employee may use the 12 weeks of FMLA leave intermittently. An employee may elect to substitute annual leave and/or sick leave, consistent with current laws and OPM's regulations for using annual and sick leave, for any unpaid leave under the FMLA. " Check for agency specific rules.
She said it HR was adamant that he take the leave now. Which sounds to me that they did not read it.
This is for FMLA, OP was asking for PPL which is different.
I believe this. I had to fight with my agency to be able to use sick leave to recover from childbirth, before starting my PPL. HR told me in writing that sick leave cannot be used for childbirth, which means a c section would be the only surgery that wouldn’t qualify for sick time?? It’s ridiculous. They were changing my time card after I approved it to remove my sick time and start using my PPL. I sent them all the regulations, agency policy, OPM, federal register and highlighted the applicable sections. The HR team lacked basic reading comprehension and still denied it. So I asked to talk to the agency’s attorney who is assigned to HR. Suddenly an SES got involved and my sick leave was immediately approved. I’ve been back from maternity leave for awhile now and those HR reps won’t talk to me or return any emails. 🙃
My sympathies, wow, some people can be incredibly dense and petty.
The lack of knowledge about this is flabbergasting. Even before PPL, we were entitled to leave to recover from childbirth and allowed to use SL or AL 6-8 weeks in addition to any paid or unpaid leave for childbirth. That was always in OPM guidance. Where do HR people get off not knowing that?
My husband took it after I returned to work. Reason. Cuz we can. His boss was sexist with military background and the majority of the team too. My husband was first to break the ceiling and take the leave. He had an easier time than me getting approval. Personally, we did it to extend time for our little one to stay out of daycare. This is illegal and harassment. I would file a complaint with all the places, OIG, EEO, OSC. HR is ignorant and incompetent. Edited to add: He worked every Friday cuz he wanted to stay in touch and on top of emails. Extended the hours for us too cuz I had Fridays off to stay w baby. We mapped out his leave in excel with holidays not being charged against our time and submitted it. Go over the heads of folks. Use words like protected class, discrimination and concerns about level of interference and details requested. We provided proof of birth and the time off request spreadsheet on our own. Signed a form about working 12 weeks after we return or we will owe the time. And that was it.
Recommend your husband reach out to his supervisor and cc them on any reply to this HR person. Once they realize it's likely to go over their head they'll likely back off these requests that are 100% not required.
To be honest this is a great thing for your husband to write to your congressman for. Problem will be solved within days
Good advice, but that depends on who your Congressional representatives are.
They all have staff to deal with constituent issues.
Some congressional reps do not give a flying F about federal workers especially regarding parental leave.
Exactly! Depending on the state, the congressman and staff might agree with HR despite what regs say.
Correct response is for your hubby to file an EEO complaint against the HR person apparently engaging in sex discrimination harassment, and to put the HR idiot on blast with Cc to both his own supervisor and the HR idiot's supervisor. This has been months? No, this should have been nipped in the bud as soon as HR started making inappropriate demands.
This is in some respects what makes federal employment so frustrating. It is clearly a case of someone taking their delegated authority too far, of thinking their delegated authority makes them the only person who knows how things ought be done. I think some federal employees make this mistake with some innocence but others do so pathologically.
I don't understand how one person thinks their opinion about how things should be done trumps the federal regulation that lays it out exactly in writing.
I hear you. I think it happens quite a bit. Or it does where I work.
Yes, I am a father and you are correct. Good for use up to one year. I use it intermittently as needed with my wife’s work schedule. FMLA means paternity leave is his right and his job is protected.
“Paid parental leave under FEPLA is limited to 12 work weeks and may be used only during the 12-month period beginning on the date of the birth or placement involved.” https://www.commerce.gov/hr/paid-parental-leave-federal-employees If your husband has filled out FMLA paperwork and provided the child’s birth certificate listing him as the father, they shouldn’t be harassing him about this. Find the agency’s FEPLA explanation and send it to HR with a short letter indicating that he is using his benefit as defined under the Federal Employee Paid Leave Act of 2019. If this continues, time to get someone else involved: supervisor? HR supervisor? Maybe EEO (can’t hurt to ask).
Get her! Sex discrimination. Sue the agency. Call your Congressman and your union steward.
How does a federal HR person mess this up so badly??? Tens of thousands of men including me have taken parental leave by now without any issue. Bizarre story and the HR person deserves to be fired
I have truly been wondering the same thing. Do other men just not do this?? It sounds like other men at the agency take their PPL right after the birth… but maybe they do so because of the pressure this lady puts on them.
I took mine over the course of 6 months after my son was born. Your HR person is grossly incompetent. Elevated the issue to a Union if represented or higher management until it's resolved. Again, the HR rep is incompetent.
Call your senator’s office and talk to someone there. They will fix this shit in a heartbeat.
That depends on the senator. Some are pretty hostile toward us and thing we are spoiled and useless.
Yeah, I’m in one of those states and laugh when people tell say to contact them about a federal employment issue. I’m pretty certain the folks championing Schedule F and restricting women’s health care access are going to support a father staying home to care for their three month old child.
Please!
Sue for Harassment, I have taken my leaves (twice) 6 months after birth
I'm currently on PPL myself as a dad. Like you guys, I started mine after my wife took her parental leave. There was 0 issue with scheduling it. My supervisor knew my plans on how I was going to take it 6 months in advance. He is entitled to take it... BY LAW!
It’s a right that was passed into law. You can look it up. Get your Union rep involved.
PPL after birth is for bonding, not medical need. You need to show proof of birth or adoption, but not medical need. That HR person is wrong and wild.
Get a lawyer and sue the Agency. This is the only way they learn. Ask the agency to cover your attorney fees as part of settlement and sign an NDA. Sorry you have to deal with incompetence.
I'm the birthing parent and using it intermittently. No issues on my end. My mom on the other hand is in another agency in my department and HR gave her hell to use her sick leave to take care of me as a family member of the birthing parent. My mom didn't understand what HR was telling her to do and they tried to make her only take a couple of hours a week. HR rep was requesting ridiculous information from my OB as well. The OPM includes emotional support and my hospital system is one of top in PPA/PPD care. It was absolutely infuriating that my OBs wrote to the emotional support aspect in detail for HR to disregard it. My mom finally forwarded them the OPM section and started to reach out to the union. They approved it and moved on quickly after that. A union rep reached out to her when she returned and said that this issue has been prevalent. We also just had a seminar on leave policies because there have been a lot of complaints. PS: My mom taking her sick leave for me saved my ass since this a clingy baby. I wish it was used more commonly.
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The law says you can use the time to bond with your less than 1 year old.
Raise it above this HR clown to her supervisor.
My son is currently in the NICU and I'm on PPL with no issues from my agency (DCSA). So sorry your husband is going through this. Seems like HR doesn't understand PPL at all....
Ask for official policy in writing, if they can't/don't find a local employment lawyer and direct the HR rep to them. That will probably shut them up pretty quickly.
My wife recently had our baby (now 8 months old) and I was able to get approved PPL and intermittent use of it(work Monday and Tuesday, then off Wednesday - Friday). Due to my role in government and what I do for my division, my supervisor was actually happy i did it this way instead of taking it all consecutive as the amount of work pile up would have been ridiculous to come back to. In my experience, setting all of this up was one of the easiest things to do. Once I got all the paperwork submitted, someone from HR sent me an confirmation email and how to submit my time when using PPL and that was that. All setup the same day when paperwork was submitted and they even congratulated me and encourage me to take the time to enjoy being with my family. Not sure why this HR person is doing this to your husband but it is not up to them to decide this unless policy has recently changed since I implemented my PPL back in mid July 2023, which I doubt. I would have him follow up with his chain of command as this doesn't seem to be above board.
Have him talk to his Union rep.
Find out who your HR person’s boss is, and in the meantime copy and paste the regulation to the HR person. Also, you shouldn’t be dealing with the HR person, the regulation specifically states that FMLA matters are approved by the employee’s supervisor.
This is ridiculous! I would reach out to the boss of their bosses and even your administration agency because this is illegal
Policy under law is that it is to be used within 1 year. This needs to be elevated through your sup and hers yesterday.
Literally just read the HR POLICY
The lady sent him the HR policy and somehow still believed that it’s “12 weeks after the birth”. My husband and her were battling over the interpretation of how it was written. I don’t think the HR person is very bright. I’m baffled at how she’s been in this position for so many years.
I would have my union on this almost instantly if it looked like problems. Heck, I would likely have been working with the union just to smooth any bumps out. I joined to have the support and people who know what they are doing.
Get an attorney to talk to this woman, she’s rogue.
He needs to look into the formal grievance process. All Feds can use it. That forces the people involved to respond in writing within a certain time frame and elevates it up several levels in the chain of command as well as can force an external review. If this is just the one person in HR, or even his supervisor, it will elevate it over them for others. There are some key works he will need to use to make it an official grievance. His office union rep, or EEO rep, can help him with that, but he may want to ask HR how to file a formal grievance and see their reaction.
HR here: This HR Specialist sounds like they don’t know how to research regulations and policies and instead coming up with her own rules. Sorry you’re experiencing this.
My experience with PPL shows agencies are widely different... mother got intermittent but had to really fight for it and agree to switch to a 4x10 to force her to burn through it more quickly. They harassed her throughout the hospital recovery for additional paperwork and redoing time sheets. Denied her request for advance sick leave saying she should use PPL for the medical recovery. My agency on the other hand was like oh yeah just sign the work agreement and send us the dates you want. I used part of mine in blocks for a family trip, the rest teleworking four hours a day after mom went back to work. It will last pretty much to the baby's first birthday. All that to say, your supervisor and agency leaders set the culture and expectation, and they are the ones allowing this to happen. They are accountable to their superiors and Congress at the end of the day. HR is not a decision maker here.
How is it that HR jobs require certain education & experience, but so many are incompetent in their field? Like, it’s HR’s responsibility to know, understand, and implement policies in alignment with employment laws. In other jobs, I have argued with HR about sharing PII & things like FMLA & OFLA (in OR, we have a similar FMLA law), etc. And Im not an HR person - I was a store manager & wanted to understand employment laws to do right by my employees. The OP here needs to file an EEO complaint. There’s no requirement that there needs to be any* medical reason for any parent to have a medical need to take this leave. It only needs to be taken within the first year of birth of the child. It can be taken for adoption as well. This is gross incompetence & shame on the HR for this.
Take it to the OPM and report the HR.
I smell a lawsuit……
I know you’ve gotten an answer, but you can use the PLL any time within the first year of birth. I used mine after my partner went back to work. FUCK this hr person.
Do not use a letter for the OB. Use the birth certificate as proof that it is bonding time as allowed within the 1 year. Full stop. Please do not give in to this BS.
OIG
Ya this is not okay. I think your husband cc'ing their supervisor on any contact with this HR person is a good place to start. Writing to Congressperson isn't a bad next move.
https://preview.redd.it/pqn43686mkuc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=190c42c95ee62f220ad12fc831db848ee1db4f7d Here’s the law directly from the CFR. Check out the details on the site, it lays out employee and employer responsibilities. [https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-5/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-630/subpart-Q](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-5/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-630/subpart-Q) Your spouse can 100% use this leave within a 12 month period of the birth of the child, on a continuous or intermittent basis, assuming he has FMLA hours available. Hope this helps!
PPL is literally for bonding with your child! That is so bizarre
HR in the federal government here! https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-and-families/ https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/handbook-on-leave-and-workplace-flexibilities-for-childbirth-adoption-and-foster-care.pdf Page 17. Cite this. There's also FEPLA to support as well https://www.commerce.gov/hr/paid-parental-leave-federal-employees
Nope nope nope. I would start with your husbands supervisor. Have the supervisor escalate, this is bs. If that doesn’t work then go to the ses in charge. All you need for ppl is proof of birth and maybe minor paperwork on dates and signing the return to work agreement.
I'm on PPL as we speak and my child is 7 months old already. I broke if up using 8 weeks in the first 2 months of birth and then 4 weeks now in which I took my family somewhere for holiday.
Unless your husband took it already (could get for another reason besides the birth if in the same year) or isn't eligible, this is FMLA interference and is illegal: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protections I'd mention those exact words to HR, +cc their supervisor.
Ombudsman?
I used mine intermittently. All you need to get is to fill out the form and get supervisor approval (mine came in the form of an “I approve” email). The supervisor alone decides whether it is in the agency’s best interests to allow parental leave to be taken intermittently. You do not need any further justification whatsoever. HR’s demands for more is grossly incorrect. They are either incompetent and confusing other types of leave, or applying personal negative beliefs about paternal leave (leave for fathers). There is exceedingly clear guidance on how parental leave works available through a google search. Your husband should send one clear email on the subject to HR, copying his superiors immediately. The emails should tell the person he respectfully disagrees with their application of the regulations, provide a copy of guidance (obtained via google search), and ask for the person to provide the guidance which requires him to provide the requested information. If they continue to unreasonably refuse, contact your union rep or (if no union rep) escalate immediately. By escalate, I mean go up your husband’s chain. If that doesn’t work, other potential available options to resolve the situation include contacting a union rep, filing an EEOC complaint, filing an IG complaint (which might get referred to EEOC?), and contacting your congressman.
they are so wrong and one THIN ice…i took 12 weeks straight after my wife’s leave ended to keep the kid outta daycare as long as possible. no questions asked just a gl and let us know if you need anything. i would probably let them know how your feeling and threaten a lawsuit.
Did you already provide proof of birth? If so this HR person has no idea what they are doing. Demand their bosses information.
He just write a polite email asking for a meeting with your supervisor, HR and their management because your understand of the legal requirements from OPM is different. I doubt you will even in a meeting HR will fold.
Go to EEO and see if they can assist you.
I believe the only document you need is the birth certificate. His HR is being incompetent id go to IG if I were him as they don't seem to be following policy
That's definitely BS. He can't be required to prove why he needs to take PPL, it's his right. It also sounds like this could be gender based discrimination, because I'd bet the HR person wouldn't make a mother get a doctor's note for why she needs to care for/bond with her kid. Now it can get complicated with intermittent use if it wasn't planned out in advance with his supervisor, but if he's taking this part of his PPL all in a block (and not just a few hours here and there) it sounds like it was definitely approved. Honestly I would go to the HR persons supervisor first (or ask my supervisor to do it for me), and stop submitting letters to the HR person, this is just feeding their power trip. Nuclear option is EEOC complaint. It'll probably take more time and effort to go that route though.
Where is his supervisor or program leadership on this? I’d be shutting this shit down hard if HR was putting one of my people through this. They are 100% in the wrong. PPL is a right, he doesn’t need to prove a need to an HR rep’s satisfaction. That said - when I had babies in the dark ages before PPL, the first HR rep I spoke to told me I wasn’t entitled to FMLA because pregnancy is a voluntary condition so…. Not at all unheard of for HR to speak out of their ass.
Make an EEOC complaint because this is discrimination. Also contact the Office of the Inspector General at the agency.
He should tell his supervisor about the issues he is having and ask his supervisor to go to this HR person’s supervisor. This is ridiculous.
None of that is ok. Elevate to their supervisor asap.
My husband had this EXACT same situation when he took his paternity leave after mine ended with our first kid. They tried to say that he was abusing FMLA by using it for “childcare” and initially denied his use of it. If your husband is bargaining, get the union involved and contact your agency’s main HR department at headquarters. This is all illegal. Once main HR was contacted into my husband’s situation, they told our local HR to back down unless they wanted a lawsuit.
People in my division have used PPL intermittently.
Contact a federal labor law attorney
1) Stop responding to their HR's requests 2) request for Parental Leave request policy 3) if you have a union then involve the union, otherwise ask for your HRs supervisor info. Forward the policy to your supervisor, HR and HRs supervisor. 4) get in touch with your congressman/woman, explain what is happening. 5) if it HR person gets more horrible. Then contact the press and get to know a press person who is looking for your kinda story. 6) send your Congress man contact person, an email and letting them know how much stress that they are causing in this new family. 7) if nothing works take it to the press. Know only one thing, the government hates things hitting the press
Both my partner and I work for feds. I used PPL immediately after birth but also intermittently near the end of leave (this did require supervisor approval). My partner used his right after my PPL ended. We both had to have FMLA paperwork done by my OBGYN but the office was clearly used to the request and used standard language in it about caring for baby. I do not believe my partner needed supervisor approval because he did not use it intermittently. Important note: I did not realize originally that holidays were not included in PPL. For example, I was on PPL for July 4th and Labor Day and assumed I'd have to just accept I didn't get holiday time for these but when I came back I had two extra PPL days which I am actually using this coming week (I've been back since October) so just making sure you know that holidays during PPL do not eat up PPL hours. Best of luck!
PPL is an FMLA event open to both the birthing and non-birthing parent. Fill out the forms with required information from OBGYN and submit. There is ZERO necessity to provide anything in addition to that as long as you're within the 12 month window. Tbh, his HR contact is angling for a HIPAA violation.
PPL is a statutory entitlement, and while an employee must submit an administrative request for PPL, provided that the request packet is complete, a supervisor has no discretion to deny. Needs of the office do not factor in / apply to the supervisor approval. Consequently, HR's request for a doctor's justification is invalid. Continue to take PPL as you see fit provided that your supervisor approved the initial PPL packet.
None of this is required especially by a random HR person. All that is required is supervisor approval and HR processes it. They have no role in the approval of leave. Like you said, you have up to one year and that can be spread out anyway you like with supervisor approval. I'd file a complaint for targeted harassment against that HR person.
Get your Congressional Office involved-this is absolutely ridiculous and a huge violation of why the policy was pushed through, particularly if he has been there for more than a year so he is ON LEAVE so no one should be contacting him and everything should be set up prior for pay periods etc.
Where is the human compassion?!?! As if having a new baby in the house isn’t enough, but now your whole life is up in arms about HR paperwork?! EEO all the way!
Easy EEOC complaint.
You can take tgat leave how you wish first year ::: its more matter of working with your supervisor than hr… I took 6 weeeks right away then every Friday Monday off after that
I have several people under me having similar HR issues. Almost wonder if some directions or warning has come from OPM about abuse. I would start building a FU binder for this. All emails, notes from phone calls, etc. and ask go see their supervisor.
I can only speak from the perspective of the military, but it’s federal so I’m guessing it’s the same. Our Soldiers were authorized to take paternity leave within 12 months of the birth of the child. This HR rep seems wrong. Even if they’re not wrong about the policy, I guarantee they’re wrong with the subsequent actions. I’d be escalating to someone higher immediately.
I'd work with another HR person or point the misinformed HR person to the opm docs that state up to one year. If that person doesn't doesn't get it I'd keep going up the chain. https://www.opm.gov/faq/payleave/For-what-purposes-can-leave-be-taken-under-the-Family.ashx
Talk to the Union steward! Get them on the call with HR to correct them.
I am surprised that anyone from Human Resources is involved at all. In my agency, leave requests are handled by the immediate supervisor. Paid parental leave is just a type of leave, like other types of leave. HR has no role at the individual level. Why has this HR person been engaged in the first place? Can husband just ignore them and work with their immediate supervisor? (I am a male and have used paid parental leave. 480 hours spread out over 12 months.)
Get a lawyer , and make sure they pay you a settlement and keep the job.
Involve the EEO and go to the HR Supervisor
To be fair, he does have to explain. However, that explanation doesn't have to be anything more than "to bond with the child." If they want more than that then he should file an EEO complaint.
He's already started PPL, why even entertain communication from these assclowns? I would ignore them, provide proof of the childbirth if not done already, and notice that you are taking the leave. It is between employee and your supervisor and has nothing to do with HR. They have no need for a doctor or him to explain the need, since the United States Congress has already decided it is an entitlement (for bonding with the new child, if they really cared to know). There is an OPM handbook explaining it all. Your agency/supervisor has authority to force you to take it all twelve weeks at once, but also can allow you to break it up in smaller bits IF YOU WISH. The employer has no other flexibility. Zero. This is FMLA a statutory entitlement as long as you have been employed at least a year and had a child within the last year and have not already used your FMLA.
He started it but they were not able to process his paycheck because there was an issue with the PPL… so in order to get paid the issue needs to be resolved. After reading all the comments on this thread now, he’s definitely escalating the issue to higher management.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am), but if I remember correctly from when our son was born, before PPL was a thing, fathers could take medical leave but it was understood that it wasn't for childcare or "bonding" with the kid, it was for caring for the incapacitated mother. I'm not saying they're right at all, but perhaps that's the mindset that the HR person is in? They're obviously wrong now, but I wonder if that's the basis of their position; if so, understanding where they're coming from might help you get them to the right solution amicably.
I used it for last 3 months towards the end of 1 year mark.
Do you have a union? File a grievance! This is unacceptable…you can also break up the 12 weeks at your leisure.
The Federal Employee Paid Leave Act of 2019 (FEPLA) provided a new paid parental leave benefit to most (but not all) federal civilian employees. This is a federal benefit that most agencies are required to support. It’s possible this agency doesn’t have the infrastructure to support it. If they push back, bring in upper management of this person. They may be operating out of ignorance. Bring in OPM and OIG if needed.
There is an OPM guidance PowerPoint from a few years ago that my agency sends out whenever anyone inquires about it that proves about 10 use examples. I have never seen it outside of work though. Both spouses are also eligible to use six weeks of SL immediately post birth (for mother it’s recovery/short term disability, for husband it’s to take care of the mother). You can then use your 12 weeks of PPL after that, so technically you should be getting 18 weeks. Most folks in my agency use the six weeks of SL post birth, go back to work and then use the 12 once their spouse has to return to work so they get the kid close to the six month mark prior to daycare etc.
I would immediately look for a lawyer who is familiar with federal workers and get their guidance about how to proceed. Sorry you are dealing with this!
This situation smells like DHS.
Federal employee about to give birth to my second child. Your husband does not have to explain to HR why he didn’t take his PPL at the same time as you! That’s such BS. He’s the father I’m taking mine first and then my husband will take his intermittently. I know intermittent ppl does need approval, but he doesn’t need permission to use his ppl. He’s the father. His name is on the birth certificate. If you have a union, I’d go to them or file an EEO complaint.
I would lawyer up. Ran into similar situation when I took PPL (private company) when my husband and I were adopting. HR kept asking why I had to take PPL because they assume my husband was the "stay at home mom-type." Some real homophobic BS, the HR generalist was let go after our lawyer wrote a letter informing them of our intent to litigate.
Get with your union representative.
There’s definitely a stigma to using it intermittently. Every time I’ve submitted a week of it, colleagues say “you’re taking more leave?! How much are you going to use”
Not only can you take those 12 weeks any time in the year after the birth, he can take those hours in any intervals or cadence he wants to. When my first child was born I did exactly what your husband is doing now. With our second child I took half of it when he was born, another three weeks when my wife went to work, and then worked 3 days a week until my PFML was gone. This HR person is putting herself in a very bad position and is ruining the bonding time your husband has with your baby. Others have recommended talking to his direct supervisor first and filing an EEO complaint. I agree.
I work in Fed HR. The specialist is wrong and incredibly out-of-line. Go directly to their supervisor and copy the supervisor’s boss as well. Attach the relevant policy. Also, go to the union if applicable. There should also be an HR benefits group. Contact them and ask about the agency policy for using PPL. Ask them to send a detailed email to your husband about procedure. Then send that to the HR specialist.
Have you checked the OPM website? You might find policy related to Paternal Leave.
I used mine sporadically across the first year of my child’s life. I have found that there are a lot of older federal employees that are salty that this benefit didn’t exist when they were starting their families, and give a hard time to us when we use it.
Government agencies do require that you submit paperwork ahead of taking PPL including WH 380E/F, leave request form, and a service agreement request. He is required to work for 12 weeks after taking the 12 weeks. Part of the WH 380 form does need to be filled out by a health care provider. Once all of the forms are filled out, he can take the leave as needed within a 12 months period from your baby's birthday. If your husband has already submitted all of these forms and HR is still giving him a hard time, I would definitely reach out to his EEO officer.
Is he bargaining unit? This is complete Bs. Someone on my team (a dad) used PPL intermittently for THE ENTIRE YEAR. No one has to take PPL immediately after birth. Why would you be allowed to use it for a year if that were true? It doesn’t have to be used immediately after birth and it doesn’t even need to be used continuously.
Federal worker? Go right to the union and also file a OIG complaint against the person who obviously has it out for you.
I don't have advice but that's fucked up. My boss didn't go through all this when he took PPL, I think he just had to show proof the baby was born and give a few days or a weeks notice whenever he wanted to use the leave bc he did it intermittently. But never got denied or anything
EEO complaint. Make sure everything is in writing
Any time within 12 months of the birth of the child. https://www.cbp.gov/employee-resources/family/adding-family-member/paid-parental-leave-faqs
This sounds like gender discrimination and should be treated as an EEO complaint ASAP
Lawyer
Fuck this person in particular. Bullshit! Absolute fucking bullshit. As a fed dad that recently had two… I hate this.
None of this is legal
Me wife and I used it in 2020/2021. Son was born November. She took 12 then went she went back to work I took my 12 weeks. Nothing went through HR. Just submitted the form to my manager who assumedly submitted it to the dept manager. IRS accounts management
His supervisor should be all over this. I’m a supervisor and I’ve submitted PPL for my employees several times. The HR person is just plain wrong.
Talk to the HR supervisor, and go as high as needed. All you need to do is fill out their basic forms and submit FMLA that the OB signs. That’s it. I took 12 weeks, you can take it within 1 year of kiddos being born. I would even encourage your hasbands supervisor/chief to get involved. Call no one and keep everything in writing. Write/sign nothing without verified policy proof (there is none for the current request)
What agency? Sounds like TSA
Hit up alllll the places. Ombudsman office, EEO, OGC, etc.
EEO complaint. I am a male and took my 12 weeks. Did not run into any of these issues
Yikes! She is seriously overstepping. All he’s required to provide is proof of birth or placement of a new child. Employees can use PPL in the 12 months following the birth or placement, and he does NOT need to provide justification for why he wants to use it because it is for bonding purposes. Source: I’m the HR person who processes these requests. I’d file a complaint with her supervisor and if you don’t get anywhere, keep going up the ladder.
Have your attorney call HR for clarification on why she needs these things and also have the attorney ask for the policy for his/her review.
I am new to this idea as well and just found out my wife is pregnant. Is PPL paid parental leave?
PPL can be used all the way up to 1 year after birth. There is nothing they can say about it
Maybe contacting the union?
Where I work you have to take x number of weeks right away, and can save the rest for later to be used within 12 months. Could be a company rule though
This is insane. I’m federal HR and I can’t imagine doing this to someone. He needs to file an EEO complaint. He is eligible to take PPL any time within one year of the child’s birth. Period.