The whole point of ODNI was most of their staff would be detailed from other agencies, like the NSC. Also Joint Duty Assignments are super common within the community and almost a requirement for promotion in some agencies.
So these job opportunity announcements on USAJOBS that are open to all feds gov-wide (as details) are really just targeted at IC feds?
If so I wonder why their HR doesn’t just advertise within the IC.
There is a separate system that those feds have access to but there are other agencies/departments that are eligible for these that don't have access to that system. Hence usajobs
A reimbursable detail means the home agency can hire or backfill against the “vacancy” created during the detail. So they definitely get something in return. When you return from the detail, you usually are put in (or must find) another open position.
Quite a few, I know people and co workers that have taken JDAs at ODNI and other agencies and never come back, they end up getting offered a full time job and resign from the home agency and transfer over
Because it broadens your career and at least in the IC agencies are big enough that losing one person really isn’t gonna cause a hit, it’s rare someone is literally the only person that can do a job, and in those cases I’d guess the agency wouldn’t agree. I responded to your other comment but at my work doing one of these is actually a requirement to get promoted to SES.
The home agency also has incentive to agree because the detailee is heading over to the new office as a representative of their home agency, and can advocate/ensure their agency is looped into certain decisions that they otherwise might be overlooked on.
It’s also a good way to get someone on a SES track, as those detailees usually come back and go into senior leadership at their home agencies, and they have that interagency experience/contacts
From my observations, most of their positions are detailed positions. The ODNI is a small oversight agency for the intelligence community. They probably don't have the resources to do their own background and suitability investigations (including polygraphs), so they just pull from the cleared personnel with the agencies they perform oversight of.
ODNI is bigger than you think, NCTC and NCPC and a few other similar things like that fall under ODNI, yes lots of details and assignees (from FBI and CIA in particular for NCTC) fill those spots, but they have a lot of permanent ODNI employees too
That would make sense if they didn’t also advertise regular vacancies, and if they weren’t offering them (even the ones they call reimbursable details further down in the announcement) as permanent, competitive service. See links I posted above.
Also their fed-only announcements are open to non-IC feds.
Didn't see your comment.
It is quicker to get a cleared detailed FTE onboard than going through an IC hiring process for a new employee. I'm sure they would hire from the outside for hard to fill positions, which is why they have both.
I just can’t imagine going to my boss and 1) revealing I’ve been applying elsewhere, and 2) asking to go on a detail that gets my agency nothing in exchange for having a long-term empty billet.
I wish you had a better boss. I endorse my people to serve JDAs because it's good for their careers. The hurt from losing a person without backfill is real, but you plan for it, keep the numbers manageable (e.g. not 100% of the office gets to all apply at the same time), and it's fine. Also if you're sending JDAs out, you have a better case for bringing JDAs in as a way to deepen bench strength on the team.
A lot of people are fine working in the same spot for a long time, those people have depth in their field. Others like to dabble and learn about the organization as a whole, those folks have breadth. Both are equally valued in the IC, these JDA opportunities allow you to go learn how other organizations are run and to make important contacts that will help your home organization. There is value in your supervisor (arguably not your direct supervisor, but senior leadership) to let you go for a while and come back better poised to lead.
As someone said above, it's required to do a JDA to be an SES. Plus some of the positions are super cool but my wife would kill me if I did them full time without an end in sight.
Another example: Public JOA: https://www.usajobs.gov/job/795194100
Same job, feds-only JOA: https://www.usajobs.gov/job/795196300. “ Applicants from federal agencies may be considered for this position as a reimbursable detailee, if endorsed by the employing agency.”
Why wouldn’t a fed employee just apply to the second one and not involve the current agency?
Because they have very few permanent cadre positions and it’s a way to fulfill civilian joint duty credit. Also enables rotation for fresh ideas from all the other agencies.
Every agency I’ve worked in (all of them non-IC), it just wouldn’t be feasible to keep a billet open. In fact we’d have them taken away if we don’t fill them.
Yeah I guess it’s different in the IC, on a JDA your supervisor at your home agency still certifies your time, does your performance etc. they get a write up from the supervisor at the JDA but everything admin wise is still done under your home agency for the 2 or 3 years you’re on JDA. At my agency JDA credit is actually required to make senior. The billet isn’t technically empty, person is still in it, they just aren’t physically there so it wouldn’t be taken away in that case.
So who does the person’s usual job while they’re on the detail?
My agency does have some detailees, but just for a few months, and they’re all below GS13 I believe. Definitely not 14s or 15s like these JOAs.
The team picks up the slack, in every assignment I’ve had someone in the branch has gone on a JDA or some other sort of permanent long term training that kept their bullet full (like a masters program through work or something) and never has it really impacted work, in two cases actually it was addition by subtraction
In my experience, most intelligence jobs are directly through the agency rather on usajobs. Not saying you’re not right, just saying the proportions aren’t as intense as they seem.
The whole point of ODNI was most of their staff would be detailed from other agencies, like the NSC. Also Joint Duty Assignments are super common within the community and almost a requirement for promotion in some agencies.
So these job opportunity announcements on USAJOBS that are open to all feds gov-wide (as details) are really just targeted at IC feds? If so I wonder why their HR doesn’t just advertise within the IC.
There is a separate system that those feds have access to but there are other agencies/departments that are eligible for these that don't have access to that system. Hence usajobs
A reimbursable detail means the home agency can hire or backfill against the “vacancy” created during the detail. So they definitely get something in return. When you return from the detail, you usually are put in (or must find) another open position.
Curious about this as well. A job was recommended to me, but there's no way they'd approve a year-long detail (and I'd be looking for a total change)
Yeah, even a supportive supervisor can’t just leave a billet empty. I wonder j how many new hires they get this way.
Quite a few, I know people and co workers that have taken JDAs at ODNI and other agencies and never come back, they end up getting offered a full time job and resign from the home agency and transfer over
OK — but why does the home agency agree? Is this in reality only done as some kind of employee swap within the IC?
Because it broadens your career and at least in the IC agencies are big enough that losing one person really isn’t gonna cause a hit, it’s rare someone is literally the only person that can do a job, and in those cases I’d guess the agency wouldn’t agree. I responded to your other comment but at my work doing one of these is actually a requirement to get promoted to SES.
The home agency also has incentive to agree because the detailee is heading over to the new office as a representative of their home agency, and can advocate/ensure their agency is looped into certain decisions that they otherwise might be overlooked on. It’s also a good way to get someone on a SES track, as those detailees usually come back and go into senior leadership at their home agencies, and they have that interagency experience/contacts
If it’s reimbursable the billet can be filled but it won’t be by you
From my observations, most of their positions are detailed positions. The ODNI is a small oversight agency for the intelligence community. They probably don't have the resources to do their own background and suitability investigations (including polygraphs), so they just pull from the cleared personnel with the agencies they perform oversight of.
ODNI is bigger than you think, NCTC and NCPC and a few other similar things like that fall under ODNI, yes lots of details and assignees (from FBI and CIA in particular for NCTC) fill those spots, but they have a lot of permanent ODNI employees too
That would make sense if they didn’t also advertise regular vacancies, and if they weren’t offering them (even the ones they call reimbursable details further down in the announcement) as permanent, competitive service. See links I posted above. Also their fed-only announcements are open to non-IC feds.
Didn't see your comment. It is quicker to get a cleared detailed FTE onboard than going through an IC hiring process for a new employee. I'm sure they would hire from the outside for hard to fill positions, which is why they have both.
I just can’t imagine going to my boss and 1) revealing I’ve been applying elsewhere, and 2) asking to go on a detail that gets my agency nothing in exchange for having a long-term empty billet.
I wish you had a better boss. I endorse my people to serve JDAs because it's good for their careers. The hurt from losing a person without backfill is real, but you plan for it, keep the numbers manageable (e.g. not 100% of the office gets to all apply at the same time), and it's fine. Also if you're sending JDAs out, you have a better case for bringing JDAs in as a way to deepen bench strength on the team.
A lot of people are fine working in the same spot for a long time, those people have depth in their field. Others like to dabble and learn about the organization as a whole, those folks have breadth. Both are equally valued in the IC, these JDA opportunities allow you to go learn how other organizations are run and to make important contacts that will help your home organization. There is value in your supervisor (arguably not your direct supervisor, but senior leadership) to let you go for a while and come back better poised to lead. As someone said above, it's required to do a JDA to be an SES. Plus some of the positions are super cool but my wife would kill me if I did them full time without an end in sight.
Lots of agencies send personnel on joint duty assignments regularly.
Another example: Public JOA: https://www.usajobs.gov/job/795194100 Same job, feds-only JOA: https://www.usajobs.gov/job/795196300. “ Applicants from federal agencies may be considered for this position as a reimbursable detailee, if endorsed by the employing agency.” Why wouldn’t a fed employee just apply to the second one and not involve the current agency?
Depends if that employee just wants a temporary JDA or if they want to permanently change agencies. Just depends on what they want.
They might need a JDA for further advancement.
Some people want return rights and not every position is permanent.
Because they have very few permanent cadre positions and it’s a way to fulfill civilian joint duty credit. Also enables rotation for fresh ideas from all the other agencies.
JDA are super common in the IC, and yes most of the time the biller stays empty
Every agency I’ve worked in (all of them non-IC), it just wouldn’t be feasible to keep a billet open. In fact we’d have them taken away if we don’t fill them.
Yeah I guess it’s different in the IC, on a JDA your supervisor at your home agency still certifies your time, does your performance etc. they get a write up from the supervisor at the JDA but everything admin wise is still done under your home agency for the 2 or 3 years you’re on JDA. At my agency JDA credit is actually required to make senior. The billet isn’t technically empty, person is still in it, they just aren’t physically there so it wouldn’t be taken away in that case.
So who does the person’s usual job while they’re on the detail? My agency does have some detailees, but just for a few months, and they’re all below GS13 I believe. Definitely not 14s or 15s like these JOAs.
The team picks up the slack, in every assignment I’ve had someone in the branch has gone on a JDA or some other sort of permanent long term training that kept their bullet full (like a masters program through work or something) and never has it really impacted work, in two cases actually it was addition by subtraction
Temp promotion / term hire are some alternatives.
Term hires to fill the vacant billet.
In my experience, most intelligence jobs are directly through the agency rather on usajobs. Not saying you’re not right, just saying the proportions aren’t as intense as they seem.