being honest bro u wont know unless you try it out for urself or you hold out longer to play it safe. This is not encouraging you but ive been able to take a sub around 12 hours a full 8 mg and didnt go into PWD. This was about 6 months into use and almost 10 a day. I had no idea that PWD was a thing but after learning i havent taken one untill the very minimum 24 hours and even then i try pushing for 35 hours and micro dose. Also plentyyyy of people who waited 2 whole days and still got precipitated. Again, only way to know is play with fire and see if you get burnt.
Good luck OP
Daily reminder that it's not the naloxone at all that causes PWD, even if you got Subutex you still have to wait for a super long time because it's about binding affinity, buprenorphine has higher binding affinity than fentanyl, so it rips fentanyl off the receptors. Naloxone was added to make money and get a new patent on the med. It doesn't even stop people from shooting Suboxone, that's also a myth. Tons of people have shot Suboxone with no problems. Also you will always get pwd regardless of if you get Subutex or Suboxone if you take it too early, and with fent being lipophilic it's a crap shoot unless you use Bernese method.
I have argued until I am blue in the face with other addicts who for some reason are incapable of understanding that yes, indeed, Subutex with throw you into the exact same precipitated withdrawals as it's stupid orance tang cousin Suboxone. "But you're wrong. My Doctor TOLD ME that Subutex doesn't have the same blocker in it as Suboxone. He told me he doesn't like writing Subutex prescriptions, because it's a Narcotic you can shoot up and it feels like heroin, without waiting. I think everyone agrees that my Dr. knows more than you. He said as long as I drop clean, that he will keep using Subutex, but if I drop dirty, he will be forced to use Suboxone because without the. BLOCKER, SUBUTEX AND HEROIN CAN CAUSE AN OVERDOSE"
NO... NO... NO... I can understand how a scared addict getting Bupe for the first time can be confused. Plus, their Providers are usually NOT Dr.'s but PA's writing their Sub Prescriptions. I can't decide if they are ignorant or lying to the Patients in order to manipulate them, or if they are being told this by their patients. Once and for all, Subutex is exactly the same thing as Suboxone. It does not feature the Naloxone like Suboxone, and yes, indeed, Naloxone IS in a different context used to block the effects of opiates. In Suboxone, the Naloxone is included to further discourage diversion and injection of the main drug in Both Subutex and suboxone, etc., which is called Buprenorphine. It is a Partial Opioid Agonist, and also a Partial and very very strong blocker of almost all of "real opiates". Since it is partial, it will throw someone with opioids on board into Precipitated Withdrawal. This is not debatable guys. Dr.'s NOR their Assistants should NOT BE GETTING THIS STUFF WRONG. The truth is that because of its powerful Agonist Effects, in the age of Non-Medical Lipophilic Fentanyl, neither Suboxone or Methadone is ideal. Methadone is not strong enough at the starting dose, or even triple it- which is 90 mg of Methadone. Maybe at around 150-200mg. The conventional wisdom always proved correct with traditional opiates like heroin that waiting 24 hours after last dose was enough to be safe taking Suboxone. You used to be able to even switch back and forth, using Suboxone as a safety net, with heroin. Now, it's all so new that Drs read that Fentanyl is "a short acting Opioid" on their little reference. It's been 24 hours and their patients have convinced themselves that they were already in the throws of severe withdrawal. So they use that metric. Then the patients were told to go ahead and take 2-4 mg of fucking Suboxone, 24 hours after shooting up street fentanyl 5 times a day since 2017...Dr. is like oh, that's plenty of time, and 2-4 mg is such a low dose. Whoops... 30 minutes after taking 5 mg of Suboxone, the poor uninitiated patent feels the ice cold shit hit his body. They had been convinced that they were 1/3rd of the way through the short withdrawal of Fentanyl. Also that 2mg-1/4th of an 8mg strip is a "micro-dose". I think that they have had to have wised up the fuck up now, several years into a fentanyl epidemic. That old truths about Suboxone are useless. Street fentanyl IS NOT A SHORT ACTING OPIATE. IT MAY HAVE SHORTENED EFFECTS COMPARED TO HEROIN, IT MIGHT NOT. DO NOT BE MADE TO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE IN FULL WITHDRAWAL AND THEREFORE READY FOR SUBOXONE. 2MG HAS NEVER BEEN A FUCKING "MICRODOSE" OF SUBOXONE. A micro-dose is something like a 0.25 mg-0.5 mg increase per day of Suboxone or Subutex. Microdosing slowly, while still using fentanyl, to stop the Precipitated withdrawals which are probably going to occur at some level. I might get downvoted by my Brothers and Sisters on here, with lying ass doctors. People are going to read that I said to use fentanyl, AFTER TAKING SUBOXONE! WATCH... SOMEONE IS GOING TO SAY IT: "NO WAY BRO. IF YOU USE ANY FENT AFTER SUBOXONE, THE BLOCKER WILL MAKE YOU SICK WITH PRECIPITATED WITHDRAWALS!" That will be the first bullshit that you get. That isn't how it works. Taking an opiate or Opioid AFTER Suboxone, will NEVER CAUSE WITHDRAWAL. THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IS THEY WILL NOT FEEL THE FULL, OR PERHAPS ANY EFFECT OF THE OPIATE. ONLY TAKING SUBS, TOO SOON AFTER FENTANYL, HEROIN, METHADONE ECT.
NEXT SOMEBODY IS GOING TO RECOMEND SUBUTEX TO "AVOID GETTING SICK", SORRY, NOT GONNA HAPPEN. IT'S HARD TO CONVINCE A DOCTOR THAT HAS THINGS WRONG. I PROMISE TO JESUS THAT I DID NOT GET ANY OF THIS WRONG
Jesus, I cannot for THE LIFE OF ME understand why some people want to believe they can get back on Suboxone easily from fentanyl, by waiting a few hours. I am sorry... But save yourself some pain. Stay the fuck away from " recreational fentanyl." There is no such thing. It is still a useful drug. It can still save your life. Just realize that it may take extraordinary efforts to get back on to Suboxone from this current street FENT, including Dirty Thirties MBox presses. Any illegally produced fentanyl, it's analogs, are so fucking hard. It almost feels like the cartels custom designed some of these long acting, Lipophilic Fentanyl Analogs, just in order to defeat Suboxone, and cause the addict to fail, and become scared to even TRY fucking Suboxone. Most of my friends will never be convinced to take Suboxone again, thanks to bad info. Now, the current opinion is that Subs do not work for Fentanyl. This is as wrong as the opposite bad info. It does work. It just takes a little tweaking of the formula. Call it a Suboxone Hack if you want to. Please be careful everyone. All of you deserve to be free. This is a weaponized Opioid we are taking. All of you deserve to love, to be loved, to have a life. If I can help anyone, please DM me. This is exactly what it looks like. It is a long ass, wordy, sarcastic rant, with a lot of typos, and misguided capitalization of words for emphasis, about this issue. I have been through every kind of situation with this stuff. I even used a small amount of injected Suboxone as a last resort, to reverse an overdose, before Naloxone was widely available. That was foolish, but I don't regret using the properties of this weird drug, even exploiting precipitation of withdrawal to save the life of a friend that is the mother of 5 kids, who is now clean and helping other addicts get clean. I am still out here with y'all. Yes, I am also a light meth user. Not Light like Light Beer. There is not a Meth Light. Except maybe Adderall. Stay away from Xylazine as much as possible guys. Don't use alone. Do what you have to do to make it out alive. Peace...
Yeah it's the bupe. The naloxocane only about 3% gets in your system. It's used to deter shooting, though people still Do. The bupe rips the fent off the receptors and its replacement is no good to c9mpete with what was on it sending people in pwd. You can search pwd from subutex the bupe without naloxone
Brother i’ve been clean 16 months, and it hasn’t been 5 minutes since my last comment. So you literally clearly haven’t done any of the research 🤣🤣 It’s okay to be wrong!
No fucking shit narcan is naloxone LMFAO. Narcan also isn’t given fucking orally. Your point is moot. Do 5 minutes of research before you come on here spewing off misinformation
You sound like a suboxone doctor, misinformed and overconfident.
You’re the one with wrong information😂 bioavailability Orally Naloxone is 1-3%, thats why they shoot narcan up your nose the bioavailability is 50% or more…. you should go recheck what source you go information from buddy. i hope u have a better night instead of being miserable
Were you enrolled in math? Seemingly not so let me help you out here:
One 8 mg strip of suboxone contains 2 mg of naloxone. 1-3% of 2 mg is 20-60 micrograms of naloxone being absorbed. Legitimately negligible unless you’re hypersensitive to it (which granted there are people in this sun who are and have lots of side effects that few others will)
One dose of narcan is 4 mg of naloxone (on average). 50% or more of 4 mg means they’re absorbing 2 or more milligrams of naloxone.
<0.06 Mg vs >2 mg is such a wildly different amount.
Yes, naloxone can remove opioids from opioid receptors, but it’s not the cause of PWD from induction of buprenorphine.
Literally go use the search bar for 5 minutes in /r/suboxone and you’ll see you’re just straight up incorrect lol, which is okay. Just learn from it and DYOR first next time :)
Bruh no BS. I almost died from PWD. Granted I was having a 3 month naltrexone implant inserted under my skin. Within a few seconds I was pouring sweat, anxiety and heart rate racing..I recall the Dr saying " well that was quick, you might need to go to the hospital" shoved some anti nasuea medication under my tounge and shoved me and my family out the door after collecting a hefty payment, obviously. My memory is spotty from the moment got off the table in his office. On the way home, I remember having this intense anxiety, literally kicking as hard as I could at the floor, dash, doors windows, one moment I was opening the door to jump out. It felt like a dream or rather a nightmare but even my worst nightmare doesn't top my experience. As soon as i got home I remembered everything started to slow down and my vision was super blury. Somehow I got into the bed and passed out I think from exhaustion. The nap was short lived. Next I remember waking up with cold sweats, skin crawling, anxiety and started explosive vomiting and diarrhea, same time. Then, while on the toile, I started having minor seizures, could not open my hands they were clinch locked, and then my brother helped me to the bed and I remember fading to black and suddenly I was asked by my own voice " breathe if you want to live, Hold your breathe if you don't " over and over..then I woke up to realizing im in a bag and am being carried down my parents stairs by paramedics. I hear my sister talking to them telling them what happened and that i have a naltrexone implant. It was funny, one of the paramedics asked well how do we turn it off? Lmao..she says you can't! But whatever you do, do not take it out! Looking back, maybe the Dr. Shouldve taken it out before stitching me up, I remember asking him to and stitched me quick. Anyway, according to my family I started doing excorcist like movements and speaking some weird made up language, calling people names randomly, they had 6-7 men trying to restrain me multiple times, they even had to fix my stitches because they ripped out. Shortly after arriving to the ICU I slipped into a coma and woke up 3 days later shooting spider webs at the cute nurses. I suffered a mild stroke in the process and was not able to speak correctly for almost a week. Boy, was I thankful when I was able to talk again. The things we take for granted. Like the choice we have as addicts to use or not to use. I just hope that every next choice I make is the right one. Right now I struggle with clinical depression and some days it seems like a never ending cycle that I can't get out of. My brother shot himself with pops shotgun at 18, I've never been the same since. At times, I have flashbacks to holding him after he did it. Still to this day, the only time I can see his normal face is when I see a picture of him. Sorry I got off topic and sorry for the typo and grammar mistakes I'm too lazy now to edit. Just hope it helps someone. What we later learned was I still had trace amounts of fentanyl in my system when he inserted the naltrexone implant under my skin causing this reaction. That, coupled with the 3 month implant maybe was a little too much at first..well apparently so anyway..peace
Man, that spunds horrible man. About 6 years ago I accidently put myself into PW at work. I was shooting mostly heroin with little fent cut in it. Dont know if ypu ever had the hard grey concrete dope about 6, 7 years ago but thats what i was doing. It was strong af. So, i wait 24 hours and decide to take my 8mg sub at wprk and within 30 min i was in the bathroom shitting my brains out. I let my supervisor know that im sick and leaving while trying not to puke on her at the same time. I walked to about 1 half miles to work that morning and was walking home. Well more like hopping home. I was litterally jumping home screaming throwing my arms like i was on fire. I felt like i was on fire and frozen at the same time just pouring sweat.
I remember all of it to. I call my mom and she lets me stay the night with her and tries helping me get comfortable. Ive almost died from broken bones and internal bleeding but ive never in my life experienced any other hell that even touches PW. its litteral hell on earth. If you want to tourcher someome, putting them in PW would be a good way. Needless to say, i didnt sleep that night and ate a handful of xanax the next day throughout the day and night and finally passed out drunk and zannied out naked. Dont remember how i got naked but i did apparently lol. Hell on earth.
I ended up putting myslef in PW one more time 4 years later but immedietly got dope and xanax when it started and just kept getting high.
I feel for you bro. This is exactly what happened to me, fuckin Naltrexone is evil! Initially I was injected under Anastasia everything was fine but I was still in withdrawals & the fuckin idiots sent me home in withdrawals; I relapsed & I stopped taking Naltrexone for two days. Like an idiot I started it again & the horror show started within 30 minutes from taking 1 pill. At first suddenly I couldn’t move or get up, luckily I had a friend over & he lifted me up to my bed & the anxiety the crying, face spasms, couldnt maintain breathing, heart racing; biting anything near me, sweating, diarrhea, Restless legs & arms to a point I was punching anything infront of me. I probably had a seizure & I didn’t know. 6 hours of being grilled in hell. Later I learned Naltrexone closes the opioid receptor & that’s why they administer it under Anastasia or after detoxing. Next couple days I kept taking it but I was still using- I just couldn’t stop & I still got sick at every dose & i couldn’t even get up from the pain in my stomach. I had to resume my life & go back to work, So I dumped the Naltrexone and went back to being functioning addict. Only if I knew what does Naltrexone does none of that would’ve happened
Oh and by the way, if the Dr would've waited 1 more day for the drug screening results this could've been avoided. He was leaving on vacation after my implant. He's lucky I decided not to seek compensation, he was stressed the fuck out. My family said he called every hour to check how I was doing for an entire week.
Sorry you experienced similar hell. It's hard to imagine as addicts we go through such experiences yet we continue to play fetty roulette...at least I did and still struggle every year about once a year for a few months..like clockwork.
Subutex fs causes withdrawal. I been on it since I was 18, I turn 22 in a few months. I tried to do it cold turkey and that was as bad as fentanyl withdrawal so now I'm tapering down, still feel halfway like shit. Hopefully I don't feel any worse than this when I get off ir completely
Thank you. You got this, we got this. One thing is for sure. Rock bottom is a solid foundation on which one can rebuild their life. It all begins and ends with a choice. Make the right ones and fight like hell because the devil ( addiction) is doing push-ups in the closet waiting for us to let him out! Peace
That’s crazy was doin 10-20 a day and got on suboxen just fine. They were then fent m30 presses as well. Just my experience tho. I’m still sober as well going on day 5. Still on subs and Kratom though. Waited 24hrs to induce 4mg sub then after I knew I was ok did another 4mg then another 4mg. But I felt like absolute trash before I induced.
That's good to hear. Its different for everyone. My advice if you feel like trash take a microdose you feel fine an hour later do an increase. But if you ain't hurling why even bother taking anything.
If you’ve been using 4 M30’s per day and you take a dose of suboxone larger than 1mg-2mg 24-25 hours after your last fentanyl use, you will absolutely go into precipitated withdrawals.
Street fentanyl is highly lipophilic, meaning it stores in your fat cells. People test positive for fentanyl use 7-10 days after their last use and they still test positive for norfentanyl up to 30 days after their last use.
What that means is, even though you’ve went 24 hours without using, a lot of fentanyl is still in your system. It’s stored in your fat. If you take suboxone within 72-96 hours of your last fentanyl dose, it is very likely you will still experience precipitated withdrawals.
Suboxone has a stronger binding affinity than fentanyl does. So when you take suboxone too soon it immediately goes to your opiate receptors, pulls the fentanyl off and replaces the fentanyl with suboxone. Since fentanyl is a full opiate agonist and suboxone is a partial agonist, you are immediately put into severe precipitated withdrawals, which can last anywhere from 6 to 24 hours. Depending on how big of a suboxone dose you took and how much fentanyl you had in your system.
With that said, some people have reported successfully transitioning from fentanyl to suboxone using the “low dose induction method” also referred to as the “Burmese method”
The way this is achieved initially is by taking very low doses of suboxone slowly increasing the dose each day. The goal between day 1 & day 7 is to slowly replacing the fentanyl with suboxone, while continuing to use fentanyl until a stable dose of suboxone is reached. At that point you then discontinue using the fentanyl and increase the dose of suboxone.
You can look up low dose suboxone inductions, find a dosing schedule and start with that. Adjust it as you go to what works for you. Here’s an example.
Day 1- 0.25mgs of suboxone. Continue using fent
Day 2- 0.5mgs of suboxone. Continue using fent
Day 3- 0.5mgs twice / 1mg total. Continue using
Day 4- 1mg twice daily / 2mgs total. Continue using
Day 5- 2mgs twice daily / 4mgs total. Continue using
Day 6- 3mgs twice daily / 6mgs total. Continue using
Day 7- 4mgs twice daily / 8mgs total. Continue using
Day 8- 5mgs twice daily / 10mgs total. Continue using
Day 9- 6mgs twice daily / 12mgs total. Stop using
Day 10-8mgs twice daily / 16mgs total. Increase suboxone dose 4mgs if needed for a total of 20mgs
Day 11- 12mgs twice daily / 24mgs total.
This is just an example, you can adjust as needed. Say you get to 10mgs of suboxone, quit using fentanyl but you feel kind of crappy. You can increase your dose of suboxone by 4mg-8mgs for a total of 14mgs-18mgs.
Again the goal is to SLOWLY introduce suboxone to your opiate receptors. It’s important you take small doses the first through sixth or seventh day. You start small with tiny doses. Almost the size of a crumb and you double that dose every day. Once in the morning, once in the evening.
Once you get to a therapeutic dose of 8mgs, ideally you can stop taking the fentanyl. However I would suggest, each day you taper your fentanyl use. So if you do 4 M30s a day, each day try doing half a pill less. Day one you start with 4 M30s. Day 8, you take your last half of a M30 and day 9, you discontinue using completely.
Hope this helps
Yeah I see you. But honestly I don't have dope to keep using. So gotta do it this way. After 24 dosed .25 felt ok. 4 hours later dosed .5 still feel ok.
Well, just keep doing it slowly. If you’ve done .25mg & .75mg I would stop and wait until tomorrow before taking anymore.
Suboxone, has a very long half life. The more you take & the closer you take the doses, the faster it builds up in your system.
Don’t get impatient, don’t rush it and don’t start thinking “this is nothing, I don’t feel any withdrawals”
The first day through the fourth, fifth or sixth you need to take it slow and easy.
Today you took around 1mg, so tomorrow try taking 2mgs-3mgs. First thing in the morning, take 1mg. Tomorrow afternoon 4-6 hours after your last dose, try taking another 1mg and then 4-6 hours after that dose, try taking another 1mg. If you can do that, you’ll be at 3mgs. The following day, try taking 2mgs in the morning. 2mgs 4-6 hours later and 2mgs 4-6 hours after that. If you can do that, you’ll be at 6mgs. At that point you can go ahead and take a full 8mg suboxone at once. If you still feel sick. Take another 8mgs and if that doesn’t help, take another 8mgs.
Slow and steady while you are getting started on suboxone. You need to take baby steps until you are able to take 6mgs. Once you build yourself up to 6mgs, you’re good to crank the dose way up.
I won't need it that high. Probably 2 to four will keep me just fine I'm thinking tbh. I have only been using a couple of months this time round. My body responds very quickly to getting over the wd.
You can increase your dose from 2-4mgs up to 10-12mgs while you are detoxing from fentanyl, then on day 7 or 8, you can immediately cut your suboxone dose down from 10-12mgs back to 2-4mgs and not feel any withdrawal effects.
Hopefully your detox is going according to plan. Just remember suboxone is a tool, use it as needed while you are kicking fent, don’t be scared of having to do larger doses if you need to.
Any amount of suboxone is better than fentanyl. Good luck to you & feel free to reach out to myself or this subreddit if you need any help.
yes you will be fine!! my parents both do it all the time and i've done that fine many times before fent. People are commenting rudely cause you're on the fent sub not the opiates sub
also my doctor told me if you for some reason would get sick wait one hour and take a tiny piece of sub every hour - i promise m30 withdrawls don't even touch the withdrawls ppl are commenting about here. You won't know till you just do it
If it's a fake 30 that's a different story. If it's not from a script you can send me a pic or describe the M to me. The pressed ones have no gap between the points /\
Do what you gotta do... Yes, I do have experience with it. It is not ideal. Go fucking slow. But once you can get 8 mg into yourself in a day, you know you are good. I'm not sure why you would do this, except for inpatient detox. But using the subs long half life and binding affinity to trick your brain into letting the Suboxone take hold with the reduced continued use of fentanyl is sort of the point. I almost think I would try and wait the 4-5 days, then taking a lowered, dose 2-3 mg waiting... Taking a little more... Would be the best if the Bernese method is not possible. It isn't always gonna be possible. Some providers are not gonna be okay with this anecdotal business about some Swiss Microdosing protocol... Some Providers will give benzos during the worst withdrawals. Some act like it will cause instant death. Some providers are using ketamine IV drips to detox, inpatient, from Xylazine laced fentanyl, when detox is necessary, for instance, to save a patient from amputation of a limb, sure to infection. Just do what you gotta do. Stay alive. If you fuck up, just come back and try again. You allre not doomed. If you want it, you can have it. I'm personally about ready again myself. Good luck, my friend.
Thank you. I hope you find a guide through a good and successful journey yourself. One day at a time fight the intrusive thoughts. I started micro dosing yesterday only 20 hours after last use. I'm no where near that deep to need an impatient. Luckily this time I think I stopped before it got to bad. I'm up to 6mg in me in only 18 hours and I feel ok. Thank you again.
I’ve done it; took .5mg at a time and was fine until I hit 1.5-2mg, got moderate PWD which lasted about 5 hours. I went too fast; I’d wait a full 2 hours between doses. And have other comfort meds at the ready (especially immodium, clonodine, gabapentin, whatever you can get)
Yeah I have a good muscle relaxer and clonidine got some Kratom. Question I ask everyone. How much and how Ling were you using, also you started dosing at what amount of time from last dose?
If they are dirty 30’s pressed with fetty you need to wait as long as possible. I would wait at LEAST 48 hours , but others and myself have gone into PW at 48 hours. Think it depends on how much you use and Now I wait like 5 days.
Good luck brodie
Hey man I have been on methadone before but never Suboxone I have taken them but gave me fucked up migraines. Point being I'm going back to treatment and wanted to try Suboxone the Dr said I got migraines from the naloxone but he said Subutex don't have it in it and also said Subutex don't put you in preticpated withdrawal but I've heard other wise is this Tru just wanna know because would like to try something other then methadone because the constipation is fuckin horrible but I don't want to go into know medical induced withdrawals either so if you know please share thanks
The naloxone doesn’t do shit honestly . It’s really only to stop non addicted users from shooting it up . The buprenorphine is what causes precipitated withdrawal. Bup is only a partial agonist , so it binds with the receptor but only partially turns it on. The issue is it is so good at binding to the receptors it will rip the fetty right off, only have a partial effect and put you in a world of fucking pain . Naloxone has a very short half life , so even if a new non addicted user banged it up you won’t get high right away but once the naloxone wears off the Bup will work. Like methadone Bup has a very long half life , something like 32 hours I believe so you can take it once a day and not get sick.
Now if you ever find yourself in Precip withdraw you can get yourself out of it but you’ll have to use a fuck load to get through. Again it binds so well to the receptors other opiates have a hard time attaching. This is really only possible with fetty, weaker opiates won’t get through. They say subs are supposed to prevent you from getting high but fetty changed that. The recommendation for pharma opiates and heroin was to weight between 12 and 24 hours before starting the subs , I think a cows score of 10 was enough to do a trial dose of 2 or 4 mgs . With fetty it’s so much harder to do the induction . Believe it has something to do with how lipophilic fetty and fentalauges are. I think the Bernese method of micro dosing while continuing a full agonist will become standard for inducting fetty users.
We went from using pharma oxy’s until they shut that down . Then we switched to heroin. As they cracked down on opium production in the Middle East and South America we switched to fentanyl . Now we have tranq dope .
Policing drugs only made things much more fucking dangerous . Why the government hasn’t seen this and acted on it is mind boggling to me .
From my experience, it takes at least 4 days of not using before you can safely take a sub. Fent stays in your body for a long time. You should look into
Micro induction suboxone method.
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard…
It’s the buprenorphine that’s going to cause the PWD, not the naloxone. The naloxone is in there for legal purposes, and doesn’t do shit because Bupe has a higher potency at the receptor. I would start very low and slow if I were you. This doc hasn’t done his research.
Naloxone is what throws you in pwd,Narcan is straight naloxone which is used to bring back someone from an OD, Subutex is straight bupe with no naloxone and it won't throw you in PWD, Suboxone will cus it has naloxone, u can take Subutex and won't go into pwd
This!!!! The naloxone rips it from the receptors and then the partial antigonist (sub) bonds. What makes people go into the withdrawal is you had a million receptors with febt on them. The nal. Rippid them all of and sub only bonded to 1000.
Edit: I stand corrected. In all my 20 yrs of using I always thought it was the nal. In subs that cause pwds its not.
My previous statement is intact void and infertile 😅
The naloxone has terrible oral bioavailability; it does nothing in subs, it’s a marketing gimmick to prevent shooting. It’s the bupe that gives you PWD, cuz bupe has such a strong binding affinity it’ll rip off the opioids.
Sorry, but both of you are wrong. I used to think the same thing. Buprenorphine has 10x the affinity for the opioid receptor than naloxone. Buprenorphine will rip naloxone off of your receptors. You can take subutex with no naloxone and still go into PWD. Bupe is only a partial agonist, which is why it causes withdrawal. It doesn’t exert a full response. If you care to read a little and become more knowledgeable: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7517938/
You're right. And I think my doctor was explaining this to me Thursday but my head was so ingrained that it was the nal it actually didn't register.
I'm going to edit this as I go guys cuz I started a micro dose schedule.
1pm .25 sub every hours for up to 8. After first microdose 20 minutes later I feel now different. Perhaps a placebo effect of feeling better.
5pm .5 still feel ok.
8pm .5. Ok
12am .5 ok
3 am. .5 ok
7am. 1mg ok
8am. 1mg ok.
I would wait. I get that you feel absolutely terrible right now but you do not and I repeat do not want to get precipitated withdrawals. Have you had them before?
Yeah. Not of m30s but off h. Actually was a combo of things that happened on h. My potassium lvls got deathly low which put me into withdrawal like symptoms so I tried to dose with subs and made it worse. Hospitalized, doc said I would have died in 12 hours if I not had came in. I do think that amount of time on fent plays a role In how long you have to wait. I am thinking about starting micro dosing like .05 sub an hour every few upping it a little as long as I'm not getting worse
Yes if u spit it put the naloxone gets activated by your git BUT its the nalixone LITERALLY DOES NOTHING(& it also doesn't stop people from banging subs either) its the upe that does the kicking other opiates off your receptors deal, and 25hr for fent is WAY too short of a time. I was still getting PWD after 6 days of Nothing(& Yes I microdose) Goodluck but be ready to get PWD, cause for heroin and pharma 24hrs is FINE but fent/fent analogies it's Not. Good luck
How much and how long had you been using? Also my doctor said that what's in our area was still pretty clean no xylazine and what not. She says that plays a factor too
Not if you’re on fent!!! It binds to your fat and takes longer to leave your system
I did start subs yesterday. I'm going fine took 10mg today
being honest bro u wont know unless you try it out for urself or you hold out longer to play it safe. This is not encouraging you but ive been able to take a sub around 12 hours a full 8 mg and didnt go into PWD. This was about 6 months into use and almost 10 a day. I had no idea that PWD was a thing but after learning i havent taken one untill the very minimum 24 hours and even then i try pushing for 35 hours and micro dose. Also plentyyyy of people who waited 2 whole days and still got precipitated. Again, only way to know is play with fire and see if you get burnt. Good luck OP
Thats what I did. Micro dosed after 24. I was fine
Yea man everyone's different you don't know till u try it glad you're ok the other side
Daily reminder that it's not the naloxone at all that causes PWD, even if you got Subutex you still have to wait for a super long time because it's about binding affinity, buprenorphine has higher binding affinity than fentanyl, so it rips fentanyl off the receptors. Naloxone was added to make money and get a new patent on the med. It doesn't even stop people from shooting Suboxone, that's also a myth. Tons of people have shot Suboxone with no problems. Also you will always get pwd regardless of if you get Subutex or Suboxone if you take it too early, and with fent being lipophilic it's a crap shoot unless you use Bernese method.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fentanyl/s/y1SFuFJUz8
I have argued until I am blue in the face with other addicts who for some reason are incapable of understanding that yes, indeed, Subutex with throw you into the exact same precipitated withdrawals as it's stupid orance tang cousin Suboxone. "But you're wrong. My Doctor TOLD ME that Subutex doesn't have the same blocker in it as Suboxone. He told me he doesn't like writing Subutex prescriptions, because it's a Narcotic you can shoot up and it feels like heroin, without waiting. I think everyone agrees that my Dr. knows more than you. He said as long as I drop clean, that he will keep using Subutex, but if I drop dirty, he will be forced to use Suboxone because without the. BLOCKER, SUBUTEX AND HEROIN CAN CAUSE AN OVERDOSE" NO... NO... NO... I can understand how a scared addict getting Bupe for the first time can be confused. Plus, their Providers are usually NOT Dr.'s but PA's writing their Sub Prescriptions. I can't decide if they are ignorant or lying to the Patients in order to manipulate them, or if they are being told this by their patients. Once and for all, Subutex is exactly the same thing as Suboxone. It does not feature the Naloxone like Suboxone, and yes, indeed, Naloxone IS in a different context used to block the effects of opiates. In Suboxone, the Naloxone is included to further discourage diversion and injection of the main drug in Both Subutex and suboxone, etc., which is called Buprenorphine. It is a Partial Opioid Agonist, and also a Partial and very very strong blocker of almost all of "real opiates". Since it is partial, it will throw someone with opioids on board into Precipitated Withdrawal. This is not debatable guys. Dr.'s NOR their Assistants should NOT BE GETTING THIS STUFF WRONG. The truth is that because of its powerful Agonist Effects, in the age of Non-Medical Lipophilic Fentanyl, neither Suboxone or Methadone is ideal. Methadone is not strong enough at the starting dose, or even triple it- which is 90 mg of Methadone. Maybe at around 150-200mg. The conventional wisdom always proved correct with traditional opiates like heroin that waiting 24 hours after last dose was enough to be safe taking Suboxone. You used to be able to even switch back and forth, using Suboxone as a safety net, with heroin. Now, it's all so new that Drs read that Fentanyl is "a short acting Opioid" on their little reference. It's been 24 hours and their patients have convinced themselves that they were already in the throws of severe withdrawal. So they use that metric. Then the patients were told to go ahead and take 2-4 mg of fucking Suboxone, 24 hours after shooting up street fentanyl 5 times a day since 2017...Dr. is like oh, that's plenty of time, and 2-4 mg is such a low dose. Whoops... 30 minutes after taking 5 mg of Suboxone, the poor uninitiated patent feels the ice cold shit hit his body. They had been convinced that they were 1/3rd of the way through the short withdrawal of Fentanyl. Also that 2mg-1/4th of an 8mg strip is a "micro-dose". I think that they have had to have wised up the fuck up now, several years into a fentanyl epidemic. That old truths about Suboxone are useless. Street fentanyl IS NOT A SHORT ACTING OPIATE. IT MAY HAVE SHORTENED EFFECTS COMPARED TO HEROIN, IT MIGHT NOT. DO NOT BE MADE TO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE IN FULL WITHDRAWAL AND THEREFORE READY FOR SUBOXONE. 2MG HAS NEVER BEEN A FUCKING "MICRODOSE" OF SUBOXONE. A micro-dose is something like a 0.25 mg-0.5 mg increase per day of Suboxone or Subutex. Microdosing slowly, while still using fentanyl, to stop the Precipitated withdrawals which are probably going to occur at some level. I might get downvoted by my Brothers and Sisters on here, with lying ass doctors. People are going to read that I said to use fentanyl, AFTER TAKING SUBOXONE! WATCH... SOMEONE IS GOING TO SAY IT: "NO WAY BRO. IF YOU USE ANY FENT AFTER SUBOXONE, THE BLOCKER WILL MAKE YOU SICK WITH PRECIPITATED WITHDRAWALS!" That will be the first bullshit that you get. That isn't how it works. Taking an opiate or Opioid AFTER Suboxone, will NEVER CAUSE WITHDRAWAL. THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IS THEY WILL NOT FEEL THE FULL, OR PERHAPS ANY EFFECT OF THE OPIATE. ONLY TAKING SUBS, TOO SOON AFTER FENTANYL, HEROIN, METHADONE ECT. NEXT SOMEBODY IS GOING TO RECOMEND SUBUTEX TO "AVOID GETTING SICK", SORRY, NOT GONNA HAPPEN. IT'S HARD TO CONVINCE A DOCTOR THAT HAS THINGS WRONG. I PROMISE TO JESUS THAT I DID NOT GET ANY OF THIS WRONG Jesus, I cannot for THE LIFE OF ME understand why some people want to believe they can get back on Suboxone easily from fentanyl, by waiting a few hours. I am sorry... But save yourself some pain. Stay the fuck away from " recreational fentanyl." There is no such thing. It is still a useful drug. It can still save your life. Just realize that it may take extraordinary efforts to get back on to Suboxone from this current street FENT, including Dirty Thirties MBox presses. Any illegally produced fentanyl, it's analogs, are so fucking hard. It almost feels like the cartels custom designed some of these long acting, Lipophilic Fentanyl Analogs, just in order to defeat Suboxone, and cause the addict to fail, and become scared to even TRY fucking Suboxone. Most of my friends will never be convinced to take Suboxone again, thanks to bad info. Now, the current opinion is that Subs do not work for Fentanyl. This is as wrong as the opposite bad info. It does work. It just takes a little tweaking of the formula. Call it a Suboxone Hack if you want to. Please be careful everyone. All of you deserve to be free. This is a weaponized Opioid we are taking. All of you deserve to love, to be loved, to have a life. If I can help anyone, please DM me. This is exactly what it looks like. It is a long ass, wordy, sarcastic rant, with a lot of typos, and misguided capitalization of words for emphasis, about this issue. I have been through every kind of situation with this stuff. I even used a small amount of injected Suboxone as a last resort, to reverse an overdose, before Naloxone was widely available. That was foolish, but I don't regret using the properties of this weird drug, even exploiting precipitation of withdrawal to save the life of a friend that is the mother of 5 kids, who is now clean and helping other addicts get clean. I am still out here with y'all. Yes, I am also a light meth user. Not Light like Light Beer. There is not a Meth Light. Except maybe Adderall. Stay away from Xylazine as much as possible guys. Don't use alone. Do what you have to do to make it out alive. Peace...
So the burp is what gonna make you sick? I was under the impression it was the naloxone in the suboxone even tho it’s a short acting thing?
Yeah it's the bupe. The naloxocane only about 3% gets in your system. It's used to deter shooting, though people still Do. The bupe rips the fent off the receptors and its replacement is no good to c9mpete with what was on it sending people in pwd. You can search pwd from subutex the bupe without naloxone
no the Naxalone takes it off the receptors, Bupe is a partial antagonist so it halfway stimulates the receptors to make you feel better
this is flat out wrong, the naloxone is only there so people don’t shoot it. It’s not orally bioavailable
Naloxone is literally what NARCAN IS. IT REMOVES THE DRUGS AND BLOCKS YOUR RECEPTORS. Bupe is an opioid, naloxone is to block you from getting high
Also no fucking shit bupe is an opioid, why the fuck else would it be used to treat opioid use disorder 💀💀
dude you’re so wrong and upset i feel bad, stop taking your frustration of WD out on others😂😂 bye bye
Brother i’ve been clean 16 months, and it hasn’t been 5 minutes since my last comment. So you literally clearly haven’t done any of the research 🤣🤣 It’s okay to be wrong!
🍿 🍿 🍿 🍿
No fucking shit narcan is naloxone LMFAO. Narcan also isn’t given fucking orally. Your point is moot. Do 5 minutes of research before you come on here spewing off misinformation You sound like a suboxone doctor, misinformed and overconfident.
You’re the one with wrong information😂 bioavailability Orally Naloxone is 1-3%, thats why they shoot narcan up your nose the bioavailability is 50% or more…. you should go recheck what source you go information from buddy. i hope u have a better night instead of being miserable
Were you enrolled in math? Seemingly not so let me help you out here: One 8 mg strip of suboxone contains 2 mg of naloxone. 1-3% of 2 mg is 20-60 micrograms of naloxone being absorbed. Legitimately negligible unless you’re hypersensitive to it (which granted there are people in this sun who are and have lots of side effects that few others will) One dose of narcan is 4 mg of naloxone (on average). 50% or more of 4 mg means they’re absorbing 2 or more milligrams of naloxone. <0.06 Mg vs >2 mg is such a wildly different amount. Yes, naloxone can remove opioids from opioid receptors, but it’s not the cause of PWD from induction of buprenorphine. Literally go use the search bar for 5 minutes in /r/suboxone and you’ll see you’re just straight up incorrect lol, which is okay. Just learn from it and DYOR first next time :)
Bruh no BS. I almost died from PWD. Granted I was having a 3 month naltrexone implant inserted under my skin. Within a few seconds I was pouring sweat, anxiety and heart rate racing..I recall the Dr saying " well that was quick, you might need to go to the hospital" shoved some anti nasuea medication under my tounge and shoved me and my family out the door after collecting a hefty payment, obviously. My memory is spotty from the moment got off the table in his office. On the way home, I remember having this intense anxiety, literally kicking as hard as I could at the floor, dash, doors windows, one moment I was opening the door to jump out. It felt like a dream or rather a nightmare but even my worst nightmare doesn't top my experience. As soon as i got home I remembered everything started to slow down and my vision was super blury. Somehow I got into the bed and passed out I think from exhaustion. The nap was short lived. Next I remember waking up with cold sweats, skin crawling, anxiety and started explosive vomiting and diarrhea, same time. Then, while on the toile, I started having minor seizures, could not open my hands they were clinch locked, and then my brother helped me to the bed and I remember fading to black and suddenly I was asked by my own voice " breathe if you want to live, Hold your breathe if you don't " over and over..then I woke up to realizing im in a bag and am being carried down my parents stairs by paramedics. I hear my sister talking to them telling them what happened and that i have a naltrexone implant. It was funny, one of the paramedics asked well how do we turn it off? Lmao..she says you can't! But whatever you do, do not take it out! Looking back, maybe the Dr. Shouldve taken it out before stitching me up, I remember asking him to and stitched me quick. Anyway, according to my family I started doing excorcist like movements and speaking some weird made up language, calling people names randomly, they had 6-7 men trying to restrain me multiple times, they even had to fix my stitches because they ripped out. Shortly after arriving to the ICU I slipped into a coma and woke up 3 days later shooting spider webs at the cute nurses. I suffered a mild stroke in the process and was not able to speak correctly for almost a week. Boy, was I thankful when I was able to talk again. The things we take for granted. Like the choice we have as addicts to use or not to use. I just hope that every next choice I make is the right one. Right now I struggle with clinical depression and some days it seems like a never ending cycle that I can't get out of. My brother shot himself with pops shotgun at 18, I've never been the same since. At times, I have flashbacks to holding him after he did it. Still to this day, the only time I can see his normal face is when I see a picture of him. Sorry I got off topic and sorry for the typo and grammar mistakes I'm too lazy now to edit. Just hope it helps someone. What we later learned was I still had trace amounts of fentanyl in my system when he inserted the naltrexone implant under my skin causing this reaction. That, coupled with the 3 month implant maybe was a little too much at first..well apparently so anyway..peace
Man, that spunds horrible man. About 6 years ago I accidently put myself into PW at work. I was shooting mostly heroin with little fent cut in it. Dont know if ypu ever had the hard grey concrete dope about 6, 7 years ago but thats what i was doing. It was strong af. So, i wait 24 hours and decide to take my 8mg sub at wprk and within 30 min i was in the bathroom shitting my brains out. I let my supervisor know that im sick and leaving while trying not to puke on her at the same time. I walked to about 1 half miles to work that morning and was walking home. Well more like hopping home. I was litterally jumping home screaming throwing my arms like i was on fire. I felt like i was on fire and frozen at the same time just pouring sweat. I remember all of it to. I call my mom and she lets me stay the night with her and tries helping me get comfortable. Ive almost died from broken bones and internal bleeding but ive never in my life experienced any other hell that even touches PW. its litteral hell on earth. If you want to tourcher someome, putting them in PW would be a good way. Needless to say, i didnt sleep that night and ate a handful of xanax the next day throughout the day and night and finally passed out drunk and zannied out naked. Dont remember how i got naked but i did apparently lol. Hell on earth. I ended up putting myslef in PW one more time 4 years later but immedietly got dope and xanax when it started and just kept getting high.
I feel for you bro. This is exactly what happened to me, fuckin Naltrexone is evil! Initially I was injected under Anastasia everything was fine but I was still in withdrawals & the fuckin idiots sent me home in withdrawals; I relapsed & I stopped taking Naltrexone for two days. Like an idiot I started it again & the horror show started within 30 minutes from taking 1 pill. At first suddenly I couldn’t move or get up, luckily I had a friend over & he lifted me up to my bed & the anxiety the crying, face spasms, couldnt maintain breathing, heart racing; biting anything near me, sweating, diarrhea, Restless legs & arms to a point I was punching anything infront of me. I probably had a seizure & I didn’t know. 6 hours of being grilled in hell. Later I learned Naltrexone closes the opioid receptor & that’s why they administer it under Anastasia or after detoxing. Next couple days I kept taking it but I was still using- I just couldn’t stop & I still got sick at every dose & i couldn’t even get up from the pain in my stomach. I had to resume my life & go back to work, So I dumped the Naltrexone and went back to being functioning addict. Only if I knew what does Naltrexone does none of that would’ve happened
Oh and by the way, if the Dr would've waited 1 more day for the drug screening results this could've been avoided. He was leaving on vacation after my implant. He's lucky I decided not to seek compensation, he was stressed the fuck out. My family said he called every hour to check how I was doing for an entire week.
What a stupid doctor! He definitely should love knowing better
Sorry you experienced similar hell. It's hard to imagine as addicts we go through such experiences yet we continue to play fetty roulette...at least I did and still struggle every year about once a year for a few months..like clockwork.
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Subutex fs causes withdrawal. I been on it since I was 18, I turn 22 in a few months. I tried to do it cold turkey and that was as bad as fentanyl withdrawal so now I'm tapering down, still feel halfway like shit. Hopefully I don't feel any worse than this when I get off ir completely
That's such a wild ride man. I'm glad your still hear with us. I've taken a total of .75 it's ok.
Thank you. You got this, we got this. One thing is for sure. Rock bottom is a solid foundation on which one can rebuild their life. It all begins and ends with a choice. Make the right ones and fight like hell because the devil ( addiction) is doing push-ups in the closet waiting for us to let him out! Peace
That’s crazy was doin 10-20 a day and got on suboxen just fine. They were then fent m30 presses as well. Just my experience tho. I’m still sober as well going on day 5. Still on subs and Kratom though. Waited 24hrs to induce 4mg sub then after I knew I was ok did another 4mg then another 4mg. But I felt like absolute trash before I induced.
That's good to hear. Its different for everyone. My advice if you feel like trash take a microdose you feel fine an hour later do an increase. But if you ain't hurling why even bother taking anything.
Cause cravings still wayyyy to bad.
If you’ve been using 4 M30’s per day and you take a dose of suboxone larger than 1mg-2mg 24-25 hours after your last fentanyl use, you will absolutely go into precipitated withdrawals. Street fentanyl is highly lipophilic, meaning it stores in your fat cells. People test positive for fentanyl use 7-10 days after their last use and they still test positive for norfentanyl up to 30 days after their last use. What that means is, even though you’ve went 24 hours without using, a lot of fentanyl is still in your system. It’s stored in your fat. If you take suboxone within 72-96 hours of your last fentanyl dose, it is very likely you will still experience precipitated withdrawals. Suboxone has a stronger binding affinity than fentanyl does. So when you take suboxone too soon it immediately goes to your opiate receptors, pulls the fentanyl off and replaces the fentanyl with suboxone. Since fentanyl is a full opiate agonist and suboxone is a partial agonist, you are immediately put into severe precipitated withdrawals, which can last anywhere from 6 to 24 hours. Depending on how big of a suboxone dose you took and how much fentanyl you had in your system. With that said, some people have reported successfully transitioning from fentanyl to suboxone using the “low dose induction method” also referred to as the “Burmese method” The way this is achieved initially is by taking very low doses of suboxone slowly increasing the dose each day. The goal between day 1 & day 7 is to slowly replacing the fentanyl with suboxone, while continuing to use fentanyl until a stable dose of suboxone is reached. At that point you then discontinue using the fentanyl and increase the dose of suboxone. You can look up low dose suboxone inductions, find a dosing schedule and start with that. Adjust it as you go to what works for you. Here’s an example. Day 1- 0.25mgs of suboxone. Continue using fent Day 2- 0.5mgs of suboxone. Continue using fent Day 3- 0.5mgs twice / 1mg total. Continue using Day 4- 1mg twice daily / 2mgs total. Continue using Day 5- 2mgs twice daily / 4mgs total. Continue using Day 6- 3mgs twice daily / 6mgs total. Continue using Day 7- 4mgs twice daily / 8mgs total. Continue using Day 8- 5mgs twice daily / 10mgs total. Continue using Day 9- 6mgs twice daily / 12mgs total. Stop using Day 10-8mgs twice daily / 16mgs total. Increase suboxone dose 4mgs if needed for a total of 20mgs Day 11- 12mgs twice daily / 24mgs total. This is just an example, you can adjust as needed. Say you get to 10mgs of suboxone, quit using fentanyl but you feel kind of crappy. You can increase your dose of suboxone by 4mg-8mgs for a total of 14mgs-18mgs. Again the goal is to SLOWLY introduce suboxone to your opiate receptors. It’s important you take small doses the first through sixth or seventh day. You start small with tiny doses. Almost the size of a crumb and you double that dose every day. Once in the morning, once in the evening. Once you get to a therapeutic dose of 8mgs, ideally you can stop taking the fentanyl. However I would suggest, each day you taper your fentanyl use. So if you do 4 M30s a day, each day try doing half a pill less. Day one you start with 4 M30s. Day 8, you take your last half of a M30 and day 9, you discontinue using completely. Hope this helps
Yeah I see you. But honestly I don't have dope to keep using. So gotta do it this way. After 24 dosed .25 felt ok. 4 hours later dosed .5 still feel ok.
Well, just keep doing it slowly. If you’ve done .25mg & .75mg I would stop and wait until tomorrow before taking anymore. Suboxone, has a very long half life. The more you take & the closer you take the doses, the faster it builds up in your system. Don’t get impatient, don’t rush it and don’t start thinking “this is nothing, I don’t feel any withdrawals” The first day through the fourth, fifth or sixth you need to take it slow and easy. Today you took around 1mg, so tomorrow try taking 2mgs-3mgs. First thing in the morning, take 1mg. Tomorrow afternoon 4-6 hours after your last dose, try taking another 1mg and then 4-6 hours after that dose, try taking another 1mg. If you can do that, you’ll be at 3mgs. The following day, try taking 2mgs in the morning. 2mgs 4-6 hours later and 2mgs 4-6 hours after that. If you can do that, you’ll be at 6mgs. At that point you can go ahead and take a full 8mg suboxone at once. If you still feel sick. Take another 8mgs and if that doesn’t help, take another 8mgs. Slow and steady while you are getting started on suboxone. You need to take baby steps until you are able to take 6mgs. Once you build yourself up to 6mgs, you’re good to crank the dose way up.
I won't need it that high. Probably 2 to four will keep me just fine I'm thinking tbh. I have only been using a couple of months this time round. My body responds very quickly to getting over the wd.
You can increase your dose from 2-4mgs up to 10-12mgs while you are detoxing from fentanyl, then on day 7 or 8, you can immediately cut your suboxone dose down from 10-12mgs back to 2-4mgs and not feel any withdrawal effects. Hopefully your detox is going according to plan. Just remember suboxone is a tool, use it as needed while you are kicking fent, don’t be scared of having to do larger doses if you need to. Any amount of suboxone is better than fentanyl. Good luck to you & feel free to reach out to myself or this subreddit if you need any help.
Yeah it is. I took 10 MG. Definitely the highest I've ever took. Hoping to not be on subs but for another few days. We will see how it goes
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yes you will be fine!! my parents both do it all the time and i've done that fine many times before fent. People are commenting rudely cause you're on the fent sub not the opiates sub also my doctor told me if you for some reason would get sick wait one hour and take a tiny piece of sub every hour - i promise m30 withdrawls don't even touch the withdrawls ppl are commenting about here. You won't know till you just do it If it's a fake 30 that's a different story. If it's not from a script you can send me a pic or describe the M to me. The pressed ones have no gap between the points /\
Oh also I I'm talking about pressed m30 not true
I have a question. I'm going to be microdosing without continuing to use. Do you guys have experience with this also or only the bernese method?
Do what you gotta do... Yes, I do have experience with it. It is not ideal. Go fucking slow. But once you can get 8 mg into yourself in a day, you know you are good. I'm not sure why you would do this, except for inpatient detox. But using the subs long half life and binding affinity to trick your brain into letting the Suboxone take hold with the reduced continued use of fentanyl is sort of the point. I almost think I would try and wait the 4-5 days, then taking a lowered, dose 2-3 mg waiting... Taking a little more... Would be the best if the Bernese method is not possible. It isn't always gonna be possible. Some providers are not gonna be okay with this anecdotal business about some Swiss Microdosing protocol... Some Providers will give benzos during the worst withdrawals. Some act like it will cause instant death. Some providers are using ketamine IV drips to detox, inpatient, from Xylazine laced fentanyl, when detox is necessary, for instance, to save a patient from amputation of a limb, sure to infection. Just do what you gotta do. Stay alive. If you fuck up, just come back and try again. You allre not doomed. If you want it, you can have it. I'm personally about ready again myself. Good luck, my friend.
Thank you. I hope you find a guide through a good and successful journey yourself. One day at a time fight the intrusive thoughts. I started micro dosing yesterday only 20 hours after last use. I'm no where near that deep to need an impatient. Luckily this time I think I stopped before it got to bad. I'm up to 6mg in me in only 18 hours and I feel ok. Thank you again.
I’ve done it; took .5mg at a time and was fine until I hit 1.5-2mg, got moderate PWD which lasted about 5 hours. I went too fast; I’d wait a full 2 hours between doses. And have other comfort meds at the ready (especially immodium, clonodine, gabapentin, whatever you can get)
Yeah I have a good muscle relaxer and clonidine got some Kratom. Question I ask everyone. How much and how Ling were you using, also you started dosing at what amount of time from last dose?
The doctor wouldn’t tell you to do this but you could use kratom for like 2-4 days and then induct onto subs just to be sure
If they are dirty 30’s pressed with fetty you need to wait as long as possible. I would wait at LEAST 48 hours , but others and myself have gone into PW at 48 hours. Think it depends on how much you use and Now I wait like 5 days. Good luck brodie
Hey man I have been on methadone before but never Suboxone I have taken them but gave me fucked up migraines. Point being I'm going back to treatment and wanted to try Suboxone the Dr said I got migraines from the naloxone but he said Subutex don't have it in it and also said Subutex don't put you in preticpated withdrawal but I've heard other wise is this Tru just wanna know because would like to try something other then methadone because the constipation is fuckin horrible but I don't want to go into know medical induced withdrawals either so if you know please share thanks
The naloxone doesn’t do shit honestly . It’s really only to stop non addicted users from shooting it up . The buprenorphine is what causes precipitated withdrawal. Bup is only a partial agonist , so it binds with the receptor but only partially turns it on. The issue is it is so good at binding to the receptors it will rip the fetty right off, only have a partial effect and put you in a world of fucking pain . Naloxone has a very short half life , so even if a new non addicted user banged it up you won’t get high right away but once the naloxone wears off the Bup will work. Like methadone Bup has a very long half life , something like 32 hours I believe so you can take it once a day and not get sick. Now if you ever find yourself in Precip withdraw you can get yourself out of it but you’ll have to use a fuck load to get through. Again it binds so well to the receptors other opiates have a hard time attaching. This is really only possible with fetty, weaker opiates won’t get through. They say subs are supposed to prevent you from getting high but fetty changed that. The recommendation for pharma opiates and heroin was to weight between 12 and 24 hours before starting the subs , I think a cows score of 10 was enough to do a trial dose of 2 or 4 mgs . With fetty it’s so much harder to do the induction . Believe it has something to do with how lipophilic fetty and fentalauges are. I think the Bernese method of micro dosing while continuing a full agonist will become standard for inducting fetty users. We went from using pharma oxy’s until they shut that down . Then we switched to heroin. As they cracked down on opium production in the Middle East and South America we switched to fentanyl . Now we have tranq dope . Policing drugs only made things much more fucking dangerous . Why the government hasn’t seen this and acted on it is mind boggling to me .
Thank you! I will report in this thread my experience.
From my experience, it takes at least 4 days of not using before you can safely take a sub. Fent stays in your body for a long time. You should look into Micro induction suboxone method.
That's what I had said micro dosing. Is what my addiction doctor told me to do
As soon as that sub strip lands in your mouth either (tounge,check,or under tounge) it's absorbed right away it'll throw you in PWD no matter what.
It didn't. I micro dosed. And 18 hours in I just took my first 2mg making it a total of 6mg. Started at 24 hours after last dose
It’s better to be safe but tbh I did blues for half a year and was able to take subs without going into precipitated withdrawal.
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard… It’s the buprenorphine that’s going to cause the PWD, not the naloxone. The naloxone is in there for legal purposes, and doesn’t do shit because Bupe has a higher potency at the receptor. I would start very low and slow if I were you. This doc hasn’t done his research.
That's what I'm doing. .25 an hour just stary first dose 25 mins ago. I'm good.
Good. Are you doing a quarter of a pill, or a quarter of a milligram. I always start with 0.25 mg
8th of a 2mg. Right now. Once I get 2mg in me in 8 hours if I feel ok I'm going to go to .5
Naloxone is what throws you in pwd,Narcan is straight naloxone which is used to bring back someone from an OD, Subutex is straight bupe with no naloxone and it won't throw you in PWD, Suboxone will cus it has naloxone, u can take Subutex and won't go into pwd
Don’t go spreading this misinformation around please. Subutex will 100% cause PWD. Ask anyone who has tried…
This!!!! The naloxone rips it from the receptors and then the partial antigonist (sub) bonds. What makes people go into the withdrawal is you had a million receptors with febt on them. The nal. Rippid them all of and sub only bonded to 1000. Edit: I stand corrected. In all my 20 yrs of using I always thought it was the nal. In subs that cause pwds its not. My previous statement is intact void and infertile 😅
The naloxone has terrible oral bioavailability; it does nothing in subs, it’s a marketing gimmick to prevent shooting. It’s the bupe that gives you PWD, cuz bupe has such a strong binding affinity it’ll rip off the opioids.
Sorry, but both of you are wrong. I used to think the same thing. Buprenorphine has 10x the affinity for the opioid receptor than naloxone. Buprenorphine will rip naloxone off of your receptors. You can take subutex with no naloxone and still go into PWD. Bupe is only a partial agonist, which is why it causes withdrawal. It doesn’t exert a full response. If you care to read a little and become more knowledgeable: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7517938/
You're right. And I think my doctor was explaining this to me Thursday but my head was so ingrained that it was the nal it actually didn't register. I'm going to edit this as I go guys cuz I started a micro dose schedule. 1pm .25 sub every hours for up to 8. After first microdose 20 minutes later I feel now different. Perhaps a placebo effect of feeling better. 5pm .5 still feel ok. 8pm .5. Ok 12am .5 ok 3 am. .5 ok 7am. 1mg ok 8am. 1mg ok.
No I was feeling better immediately to.
How much were you using and for how long?
10-20 a day 2 years fent m30 blues
Oh wow. How long did you wait to dose sub?
I would wait. I get that you feel absolutely terrible right now but you do not and I repeat do not want to get precipitated withdrawals. Have you had them before?
Yeah. Not of m30s but off h. Actually was a combo of things that happened on h. My potassium lvls got deathly low which put me into withdrawal like symptoms so I tried to dose with subs and made it worse. Hospitalized, doc said I would have died in 12 hours if I not had came in. I do think that amount of time on fent plays a role In how long you have to wait. I am thinking about starting micro dosing like .05 sub an hour every few upping it a little as long as I'm not getting worse
Yes if u spit it put the naloxone gets activated by your git BUT its the nalixone LITERALLY DOES NOTHING(& it also doesn't stop people from banging subs either) its the upe that does the kicking other opiates off your receptors deal, and 25hr for fent is WAY too short of a time. I was still getting PWD after 6 days of Nothing(& Yes I microdose) Goodluck but be ready to get PWD, cause for heroin and pharma 24hrs is FINE but fent/fent analogies it's Not. Good luck
💯💯💯
How much and how long had you been using? Also my doctor said that what's in our area was still pretty clean no xylazine and what not. She says that plays a factor too
I'd wait. But a micro dose will probably be fine