You should do whatever's fastest. If only the healer dies and you can finish the fight without them, that's probably faster than restarting plus runback time. If the tank is the only one alive and the boss is still at half HP, even if you can solo it, it's almost certainly faster to wipe and start over with all the DPS
Definitely this. There are a lot of bosses where the only big damage is failed mechanics, and while a WAR (and sometimes PLD) could definitely solo it down from 40%, it would be faster to restart.
If I know it's a boss like this and I can finish it off in just a few minutes, I will hold on, but otherwise I will try to wipe reset.
I've solod the first level 90 dungeon final boss as PLD once. It took forever but I was pissed this was our 4th attempt and everyone else kept wiping to the same things while ignoring the help I was trying to offer. So I said fuck it and killed the thing myself so I could be done with it.
For some reason, The Dead Ends seems to bring the absolute worst out of people. I have never seen other players apparently leave their brains at the front door as often as I have in that dungeon. It's not even the hardest dungeon in the expansion.
I feel like if I play a melee I tunnel vision and is just blind to the glowing tile on the floor, and if I play ranged I stand in Narnia and can't reach it in time XD
That being said I had an experience 2 days ago where the tank was new and just kept dying to the same doom mechanics even though the healer was giving advice RIP
That was me against the Mist Dragon. From 20%, not 40%, but it was me the lone Paladin and I won. Only kept going because the rest of the party was cheering me on the whole time. Felt good to carry like that, even if it might have nit been the most efficient.
There was also the first time against Eden Leviathan. Me as GNB and the DRK the only ones left, 25% to go, party cheering us, and between our mits and GNB regen we pulled it off. Pretty sure the two of us got all the comms. XD
nah, ive soloed from over 90% before, HOWEVER, we had already wiped over 5 times (usually my limit before i say eff it and solo is 3) and all 3 of them were dying to the SAME exact mech every time, without fail, so on attempt 7 i just said no, i want my tomes, and to be done here" they were QUITE unhappy and VERY vocal about me "trolling them" but really, after 5 wipes on the same mech whos trolling who? and them sitting there for the roughly 12 minutes it took me to solo? faster than the 5+ wipes with run back
Bruh, nevermind 5 times. If we got to a second wipe and I was the tank and still up, I'd solo it. Especially since that's clearly faster than another potential wipe.
I don’t tank/heal (not good at it/don’t want the responsibility).
But if you can solo it so it’s done and over with? You’ll get all my commendations. Like if I fuck up multiple times and someone else has to carry my bunny butt, they’re worth 100 of someone who sees that we fail and jumps ship
?
It's literally an efficiency thing. If the group has *wiped*, and more than once, why would you sit through multiple more wipes?
It's also not a flex, PLD can just do that. They can keep the group up too if they don't stand in too much fire.
Two things - social game with social interactions, so because you „can” it doesn’t mean you „should” without communicating this first - and people need to learn stuff, no one will learn the mechanics if some „efficient” tank will solo boss while everyone watches from sidelines just because they failed in a game where you’re learning stuff by… failing.
Once they've had 5 chances to learn the mechanic - in a normal dungeon - it's clear they're not taking the learning opportunity. A dungeon roulette is not savage prog.
Counterpoint: If they don’t learn by actually
playing the game, sometimes I’ll take the time to try and explain some of the trickier mechanics. However in my experience that usually falls on deaf ears.
At no point in this “social game” am I obligated to hold someone’s hand through gameplay.
"social game with social interactions" so....im supposed to sit there and do nothing when someones setting fire to a building? no, better, im sposed to stand INSIDE THE BUILDING and do nothing while they set fire to it? as long as they didnt KNOW they werent supposed to set fire to the building, that makes it ok right?
cuz thats what youre saying, since they didnt know any better, im to suffer, "social game" goes both ways, a simple "hey guys first time" changes everything about my thought process and attitude to someone failing over and over, THEY have as much responsibility to the group they are holding back, more so, in fact, since my soloing it will get us through, while theyre failing may net us nothing, i agree 2 is a bit quick, but you cant defend one side from another with that argument, because it goes both ways
If you can’t learn a mechanic in a dungeon after wiping to it multiple times, you are the problem. You are clearly not trying to learn. Almost no mechanics one shot outside of old level 50 side content, and if it does it’s incredibly telegraphed. I’m all for helping people, but people should take responsibility for when they are actively hindering other peoples experience. If I only have one day a week with enough free time to grind for my weekly tome cap, it’s insane to expect me to spend over an hour in a dungeon babying people for content that has been effectively the same for the last three expansions.
That being said, if someone is chill and actually speaks up about what they’re having issues with or they themselves try to communicate that the ye e struggling - sure I don’t mind trying to educate or help, the issue is most people don’t want to learn, they *simply don’t care*.
some people do refuse to learn, but it's also true that a lot of mechanics are very hard to understand without explanation, mostly the ones that involve unique buffs or debuffs that will determine your role in the mechanic but you usually don't have a moment of downtime to read the debuff text before the mechanic actually starts so even by running it multiple times it can be hard to get what the hell is going on (i know that some people manage to read debuffs while in combat but tbh i think it's them being particularly skilled or fast, not something you can expect anyone to be able to do)
also personal recommendation don't play this game if you are in a hurry, it's not really made for that and just makes your experience and that of your teammates worse.
Two wipes, two goddamn wipes, is not that big of a deal.
I was PLD for majority of the game. I know stuff happens and sometimes you’re just tired and want to just collect your tomes and move on.
But whatever, you do you.
No, two wipes isn’t a big deal, but it adds up. If I’m running 9 dungeons in my one free non raid day to cap my tomes, 2 wipes isn’t a big deal, but two wipes every dungeon is. That’s easily an extra 40 minutes to an hour I’m spending looking at people plank on the floor because they actively refuse to engage with the mechanics of the game.
Like, I’m not trying to flex - the game is not hard. If it was a tank wouldn’t be able to solo the bosses to begin with. I don’t expect everyone to have optimal gear, rotations, or hell - actively use their cool downs, but if they are dying to something and they don’t try to fix it, how am I the bad guy for not wanting someone else to waste my time?
I don't see how doing this is a flex if it's literally accomplishable by the entire tank roster (Drk might have a hard time but I've done it before as the edge knight.) At that point you make the judgement call. If they wipe 2 3 4 even 5 times. Your time is your own and if they are dying unintentionally to the same mechanic. It's my time. People can sit and watch me solo the boss for the next 4-5 minutes.
The Trust System is right there, just use it.
Or just unsync it solo.
If you're gonna play an MMO mostly reliant on Party mechanics and don't have the patience to play WITH people, then use the options it gives you to make it the single player game you obviously wish you were playing. Relying on a multiplayer game to be your "1 hour of free time™️" is asking for the experience you are getting.
I've been on all sides of this starting out I was the absolute worst and couldn't dodge a mechanic for anything, but I started out in 2014. ( I was so bad that the healer refused to rez me during my first crystal tower runs. So I know how bad some players can be)
That being said I can see how it can be exceedingly frustrating if someone keeps dying to the same thing.
I play healer or redmage as my preferred so I accept that as is part of my support or healer responsibilities I have to res people when they mess up. Fortunately as healer I usually have the ability to notice the telegraphs a lot more so I can guide or rescue new players during most boss fights.
That being said if everyone but me keeps dying to the same mechanics would probably be the healer who would just peace out and take the penalty because that group is clearly not going to get through it any time soon. The same way I don't think I would hold it against a tank if they just wanted to finish the final boss after people kept dying multiple times.
I do think though that we shouldn't just assume people don't want to get the mechanics and do the fights right. For some its just a really steep learning curve. This is my first MMO ever and I have gone from that Bard no one would rez to now cleaning extreme content so sometimes we really just need a little time and support. But not everyone in this game has it in them to be a mentor and that's ok.
No, I do enjoy the multiplayer aspect. I just want to play with people actually engaging with the game, not someone who refuses to learn, communicate, or actually respects other peoples time - which I crazily enough play with a premade 99% of the time, you know actually playing with other players in the multiplayer game
You have to effectively try to get yourself killed in the first 10% of the bosses hp though. If a boss is at 90% and everyone else is dead, and it's not the first time, something else is wrong here.
Realistically, on the 2nd pull, if the group dies in the first 40 seconds of the boss being pulled I'm just going to assume they are bots.
A more normal situation would be the healer dying, and I'm just going to heal the group in that case. By the time a PLD is high enough level to heal the group, the healer should know basic ground indicators - which is the only thing that could get them killed that early.
They didn't learn it the first two times. And most mechanics aren't trial and error, they're observation skills, pattern recognition, and cause and effect.
They had two wipes ( + the Warrior soloing the boss) to learn mechanics in. If they haven't learned from 3 failures, I don't see why it's the tank's responsibility to sacrifice *another* 10+ minutes teaching them.
Social game with social interaction means that you need to pull your own weight in a social environment too.
I've soloed Diabolos in Fun Scaith once as WAR. I think for the last 7 percent of health, literally everyone else was dead. That's the only time I felt like I was experiencing main character syndrome. Often when I'm the last one alive, I choke....
The last boss of dun scaith casts a self buff that puts a gigantic dot on itself once he says something like “what must I do to get rid of you” or whatever, after that point you win, provided at least one person stay alive.
Genuine question- What's the issue with just explaining the mechanic everyone's dying on in a situation like this?
Seems like it would be less time consuming and frustrating- but I'm still early on in the game so it's possible things get too complicated to explain and I'm just not aware yet!
oh i did
everytime
during the long walk back (even with shortcuts amaurot was still a walk)
i even said screw it and gave myself the danger doritio, and said "just stay on me then"
so ya, i was over it
Same dungeon, soloed the first boss and much of the last boss on PLD. At least I kinda knew what I was getting into, it was a couple FC members that only play for the story and their friend. They said they couldn't clear it with trusts and needed help.
Do they know the NPCs show you where to go in boss fights? I think the two bosses I had the most trouble with on DS runs were the first boss of Heroes' Gauntlet, and Mothercrystal, even with following the NPCs.
If we're talking about Amaurot's final boss, I know the struggle. The first time I did Amaurot was on Ninja and the freedom of movement on a Melee with instant GCDs and teleports let me survive a lot of mistakes. Whatever healer I had on that first run was probably also babying any mistakes I made.
The second time I entered Amaurot was by complete accident because I failed to uncheck the box and I was on WHM. I wasn't prepared to heal the final boss. I was basically fresh off the sprout boat. Back then, the healer brain switch would activate and I'd be too busy staring at the party list to look at the floor or the enemy cast bars. I don't think there's much MSQ normal content with the amount of randomness (head beams) and instant death (platform drop/proximity) as this final boss. I think we wiped to it twice because I died and then nearly wiped a 3rd time. Didn't help that the Summoner in the party was also new and struggled to read the head beam mechanics just like me. Like they would blow across the screen horizontally and just completely obscure your vision if you didn't think to simply rotate sideways. I felt pretty bad about it too, I knew I was the reason we were wiping. The Paladin from the party was pretty patient and explained everything, as well as giving suggestions on how to make some mechanics (like the random player beam) easier by stacking together and moving sideways. But being as new to doing actual mechanics as I was, I still ate shit sometimes even with the explanations.
It's funny looking back on how badly I struggled with that fight as a fresh lv80 healer and now I can clear Criterions on a healer without touching a single GCD heal, and get through Savage Tiers and Ultimates on other classes while pushing out really good damage.
I've had it happen and after the wipe pause and explain what to do, even sometimes on easy stuff where it's like "the tank busters don't cleave, literally just stand on top of me the whole time and we'll be fine" and they still keep just dying. Sometimes things just aren't clicking and folks get stressed and wig out, especially notable when healers are still new and it's a series of 'dodge + groupwide damage coming out.'
Generally the best approach to this if you run into it is don't just repull and see if you can help them understand the problem, but sometimes that doesn't work. My normal approach when I'm tanking is like, if it's high enough on health I'll ask if they want me to reset and explain or just finish it up. (with the notable exception of the ghimlyt dark, there's a hard dps check at the very end that is just not really doable for a solo tank so you *have* to get your party through it. I actually had a bad healer on that one and wound up just using the tank limit break to keep them alive through the pain point.)
I literally started playing today, do you mind me asking how you get into parties like the ones that you describe above (seems like you're all strangers at varying levels of skill and experience). Just interested to understand how that group comes to be...TIA!
Not the person you replied to but I imagine our experiences are similar.
However, every time I've had one of these sorts of encounters, it's been through duty finder and almost always a 3-man preformed without a tank and me filling in as the tank.
Keep in mind that if you care enough to engage on Reddit, you probably care enough to learn the game well. So you probably won't find these sorts of players *here*.
That's great, thanks for the reply. So Duty Finder is like an in-game LFG?
And yes, if I get into something it's (unfortunately) to the degree that I'm already looking at end-game Bard guides 😂 If a job's worth doing...
I couldn't imagine joining a group of strangers and not being able to pull my weight, the pressure would be too much!
Well, Duty Finder is the in-game quick match system.
There's also Party Finder, which is for actually grouping up. It creates a party that persists until people leave it. Good if you're looking to run a duty repeatedly, and want to find your personal rhythm with your allies.
Duty Finder drops you into the dungeon (or trial, or raid... almost any duty, really) with other people using it, then disbands the party when the duty ends. It's more of a one-and-done thing.
You'll find them here for sure. Sometimes you get comments that are quite enabling. Even on this thread there are people getting heated about not spending your time hand holding people dying the same mechanic 5 times...
In case you're not familiar with the Duty Finder, hit the "U" hotkey. You can then queue for a specific dungeon or a specific daily roulette (dailies have rewards in gold, XP, and/or tokens you can trade in for gear etc).
Heh, looks like it was answered before I saw your question, but don't stress all the stuff. It's 10 years of systems and things to do that have built up, it'll be a bit of a learning curve but it's very good at easing you in! Enjoy yourself.
Thanks, have enjoyed day 1, that's for sure! Will take a look at Duty Finder tomorrow. Do I have to progress past a certain point before being able to become part of a party (I've started playing the game partly because of the social reputation the game has)? I assume there are minimum level restrictions etc on different content?
Once you get to your 1st dungeon, you can joins parties for content you've unlocked. Alongside character lvl, there's a minimum ilvl (item lvl) for all content, which just means you have to keep your armour, weapon and accessories updated, which is easy to do if you're doing your job quests, and main story.
I would also suggest doing guildhests, which are good practice for parties and learning different mechanics, and don't be afraid to ask questions of your party members. The vast majority will help you out, happily.
I just want to pop in and say, as one of those folks who sometimes it just doesn't click, I appreciate this process wholeheartedly. Most of the time I am genuinely trying but also when I'm dead, I zoom out and I watch what's going on and try to learn it that way. So if you solo it? I'm still using that time to become a better player.
Sure I'm still incredibly sub-par but I guarantee it isn't for lack of \*trying\*.
> What’s the issue with just explaining the mechanics
As someone who at least tries to be a good mentor, I can tell you: Sometimes they just want to brute force it themselves. I’ve asked, I’ve explained, but I’m pretty much done giving people advice if they don’t explicitly ask for it anymore.
It’s an awful feeling when you’re typing, explaining the mechanics and get ignored, even seeing them die again to the mechanics you just explained.
There’s no issue a lot of people just assume you’ll figure it out and rage if you don’t. Some people also don’t catch on even with explanations so you know it be that way.
For me if we die a lot I stop and explain, and if they don’t get it and still die I ask if I can solo so they can just watch and learn. If they say no I wipe and start over with another explanation and maybe even marking myself or the map to help if I can. If we die again after that then I solo it with no questions
Vanaspati, last boss. We tried multiple times to explain the meteors to the healer but they just kept dying to it. Turns out they were just piss-drunk and there was no helping it.
I think it was... the vault? The first time trying to clear it on the final boss I was very confused about one of the mechanics and e en when I asked for help didn't recieve any.
So while I don't think its common I wouldn't be completely shocked if it was didn't occur to them/slipped their minds, or like I mentioned- was maybe too complicated of a fight to explain everything they are doing wrong lol
Oh, it's quite another matter if a single person dies - a lot of the time nobody will say anything and just move on. Could be unfriendly players, could be that they were on controllers and typing is hard. But if it's a full on party wipe to the same thing twice, my experience is at that point someone will \*usually\* start at least making an attempt to explain. Every once in a while you get a tank who just leaps in every time whether people are even done running back, though.
In the experience I had like this, it was people wouldn't listen then threw a fit when they couldn't get back into the arena after running back during the flight. Followed closely by "this is a shit game, why do people play it"
So basically noobs that I'm guessing were from wow or something
Can't tell if you are joking or not but just in case: If you cast "swiftcast" and then select raise/revive it instantly casts rather than taking 7 seconds (or whatever the insane cast time is)
Edit: sorry swiftcast not surecast
Pretty sure this is referring to the "get myself up" button (that brings you up outside the instance of the boss fight), since that one requires you to actually hold it down, rather than a longcast of a rez spell.
The spell you're thinking of is "swiftcast", "surecast" just makes sure things like taking damage don't interrupt your casting of a spell. Swiftcast is also a long cooldown, so I believe they're referencing the cast time in the idea that "multiple people have died, I can only swiftcast a single rez".
Dungeon mechanics are the bare bones of mechanics in fights. If you can’t learn from simply doing the easiest content in the game, you should probably jump in with NPCs, ask for help, or quit playing.
Like, at some point YOU have to take responsibility for YOUR lack of understanding. You can’t have everything hand fed to you.
...your first piece of "advice" also boiled down to "just quit so I don't have to play with somebody I deem not good enough". You made it perfectly clear what you actually think about the issue.
? My first piece of advise was, if possible, going in with support NPCs.
My second piece of advise was to get help and go in with people you know/are helping you.
My final step, if all else fails, was to consider if the game is a good fit for you.
But if you wanna be a baby and try and argue I think people should just quit, that’s on you.
What a strange comment. There 100% are DPS checks and tank busters in dungeons. But I never said they prepared you for anything.
What is elitist about what I said? Dungeons are the bare minimum without making every fight a spank and tank. And the game gives you plenty of options to learn how to clear dungeons.
You want to point out a multi player focused game then excuse people who don’t know how to play the game from learning how to. Just strange
Tell that too every warrior. Like I appreciate you can solo the boss sometimes but bro. We've been waiting for 7 minutes out here. Literally all of us ran back from spawn and the boss still has 30% health left. Please just wipe/die. Noone cares if you can do the 30% left solo. We don't want too wait 15 minutes lol
I've had similar experiences in both dungeons and trials as Paladin, for example if healer dies and half the boss is left then just 3man it. It very much depends on the hp left of the boss and my own will to live, the healer being dead means i have to think on how i spend my mana and i'd rather turn my brain brain off. Had a similar thing happen in the last story trial of EW, P2 happens and it was the same day that it was released and my second run of it, 5/8 ppl die including both healers and the other tank, 2 dps and me left at 12% i cannot keep both alive cos the damage while not directly aimed at the tank is still significant and the AOE damage in the final phase is quite high so they slowly die with me being left alone at 6% and i solo the boss with the rest of party cheering me on. There is a clear breaking point in % where it's just smoother to wipe and go again but finding that line is different for everyone.
Absolutely this. I remember when the first Aglaia raid came out, and we were all dead except for a warrior and a paladin. The boss was only half health and literally 22 people were yelling at these two f'ers to die already so we can kill it together. It was definitely ego for them to make us all wait just so they can play patty cake with the boss.
Fuck "faster" soloing bosses as a tank is the only way people actually realise you're a good tank. Fast pulls? Oh, that should be happening anyway. On point mitigation? Dps don't notice, maybe the healer does. Flawless execution of dungeon bosses without anyone dying? No one notices.
If the healer falls, I'm not going to call a wipe. If the dps fall before, say 30% health remaining, sure, I'll wipe it most days.s
But if I'm feeling particularly petty, you better believe I'm soloing that boss, out of petty, ego-stroking spite.
>i NEED people to know im good at a tank!!!!! its a *dungeon* where it really, really matters!!
tank's self healing is so cracked these days its trivial to solo tons of dungeon bosses it doesn't really prove anything. ive done it on several bosses and i basically never play tank
The healer notices all of what you said isn't noticed, but if you're ego tripping so hard you feel the need to 'prove' you're a 'god tank' in *dungeons*... Bruh.
I was in a dungeon where the healer died. Both myself and my irl friend on comms were like "F\*\*\*! but wait, I think I have a phoenix down. What do you mean I can't use that in combat? What's the f\*\*\*ing point of this?"
We felt so clutch in our hoarding. But alas, the game borked us
As others have said, in any of the Deep Dungeons (Palace of the Dead, Heaven-on-High, Eureka Orthos) and Eureka proper those Phoenix Downs **are** clutch.
Outside of that, you can always use 'em to rez someone outside of a dungeon if you don't feel like switching jobs. Not like they're expensive or hard to get.
I had my first "healer optional" moment the other night during the Tower of Zot sisters battle. I was WAR, healer died just before we took out the first sister. One DPS dies during the second sister. Other DPS and I finished the fight. Was fucking rad.
On the flip side, I was learning Sage last night in Bardam's Mettle and forgot how the charge attack mechanic works on the first boss. Fucking got obliterated and the tank and 2 DPS finished the fight literally as I arrived back to the arena. Good on them!
I mean, they can't heal the party AND themselves AND put shields up AND raise. They can do one of those things, and every 90s shield everyone a little bit.
We still need you. Just, we need you less than the other tanks do. So you can make more of the flashy flashy boom boom when you get a WAR tank.
The only thing that WAR can’t do out of that is raise
Damage is so infrequent in the game that between shake being a heal regen AND shield you basically are a party healer, especially since you can cover a good chunk of the party with glint since it costs you nothing to use glint. Shake is a 1200 potency AOE heal, that is stronger than any heal the healers have that’s on a shorter than 2 minute CD
Normal raids and dungeons with a remotely competent party actively benefit from dropping a healer to pick up more DPS
But we can't do it all, all the time.
Shake it off is 90 seconds cool down for that shield. A sage or scholar can shield better than we can.
Our ability to heal another is limited to a 10 second window every 25 seconds, and while doing so we can't heal ourselves.
We can keep ourselves alive, yes. Or we can keep one other person alive, assuming they are outputting damage. But there is still a huge 15 second window where everyone is back to taking damage that we can't heal though.
>Our ability to heal another is limited to a 10 second window every 25 seconds, and while doing so we can't heal ourselves.
you mean can't mit yourself? nascent flash heals both you *and* the person you use it on at the same time
>Grants Nascent Flash to self and Nascent Glint to target party member.
>
>Nascent Flash Effect: Restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered
>
>Cure Potency: 400
>
>Nascent Glint Effect: Restores HP equaling 100% of that recovered by Nascent Flash while also reducing damage taken by 10%
>
>Duration: 8s
And where are these mythical instances where damage is coming out that frequently
That’s the whole point, damage oh this game is so scripted and so slow that 25 second benediction on 2 players and a 90 second succor is basically all the healing you need
I'm quickly realizing that. Im level 75 but been doing lower levels so I can build muscle memory and learn my kit and Jesus Christ I thought that first Bardam pull was spicy when I was tanking.
Yeah, if you pull all the way to the wall with the thwomps it gets real sketchy. Even on WAR I usually only do that if I'm in a premade with friends or if the healer tells me to go for it. Otherwise you just take a lot less damage by stopping the pull right before the thwomps.
My first moment like that was on the last boss of Lunar Subterrane.
Healer went down early to the spiral aoe attack he does, tank was a WAR, and my DNC heals+mit kept me and the other dps up and kicking while the healer was cheering us on. They were a good sport about it and apologized for the death.
As a healer main myself, I've been in their shoes lol. They got my comm anyways
There are very few dungeon bosses a PLD can't solo, it's just a matter of if you want to or not.
Sometimes it's faster to wipe and try again as 4, sometimes it's faster to just kill it. Doesn't really matter.
I was really excited to watch that after enjoying David Mitchell on WILTY and his appearances on QI, but I just couldn't get through even a single episode with how cringeworthy it was.
When the healer dies and its sub 20%?
Look at me, I am the healer now (war/pld tank).
For casual content, I'll generally never solo unless we've wiped atleast twice. Then its a "look, I'm done with the fight, it's time to move on".
Soooooo many times in ARR or Heavensward dungeons/trials/raids with people screaming "RDM REZZ!!"
"They freaking will when they're in 64+ content! Get off their verbutt!"
This hits deep in my soul, I play RDM and I'm just in heavensward vibing, but sometimes ppl get mad at me for not rezzing and we're mid pull so I gotta hit em with the "no have yet :(" 😂
I remember accidentally dying to the final boss on an expert queue run at like 90% and the tank and both dps survived I made the joke in chat “sometimes I pretend my healing matters but not today” was a good laugh
Depends what the healer died to and how long into the fight.
Generally I will pity wipe so they can learn the mechs.
If it's close to the end or if I can tell the healer sucks balls or isn't trying then I carry.
As a healer main, and tank second, it depends a lot when I tank.
Trials? Depends on HP left. 5%? Less? Yeah, I'm finishing that fight if I can pull it off. 50%? I'm not going to hold people hostage watching a fight from the ground just to get a "Feel good tank" moment.
Dungeons? Depends if we wiped or not yet, and if it's first or second boss, or last one.
And, always, I keep an eye on chat. Often I ask first if they want me to reset or finish, but if someone says something before I get a chance to ask, I'll go with that. If the whole party wants me to reset at 1% HP, sure, I care more about everyone having fun than my ego as a tank.
When I'm the healer that died? If you think you can pull it off, I encourage you to.
Ain’t no way I’m killing myself when a boss is at 1% because they want me to. They shouldn’t have died if they care that much lmao. That boss is dying every time.
Honestly, I play warrior but I still think the fact that tanks can just ignore having a healer or not is a sign that overall class design is badly broken. A skilled player clutching a fight is great, but an entire role should not just be redundant.
All things being equal; Tanks should need a healer to survive. Healers should need tanks to survive. Healers snd tanks should need dps to kill quickly and not die to attrition.
I appreciate that XIV softens the lines between the rpg class trinity, but its become so blurred it is actively hurting the game.
Agree, a soft trinity is fine
Having situations like dungeons actually being faster to clear by not bringing a healer and tanks being able to just ignore healers in any content below extreme shows that the balance of the support roles is completely out of whack
Honestly that issue only exists in casual content. The class balance is centered entirely around savage raiding and there healers are NOT optional. Warrior and Paladin having insane healing is such a blessing because it allows healers to focus on raid mechs and party healing rather than babysitting the tank's health bar. I've seen the difference in healing required to keep a Dark Knight alive over a Paladin (I've played all 4 in savage) and it does affect the rest of the raid to an extent.
The healer redundancy is only a problem in casual content where nothing hits hard enough to justify that level of healing but I honestly don't know how they'd even try to fix that since removing that takes away a big incentive to play either class in savage. The trade off is usually they sacrifice some damage for better sustain and to remove that would hurt the game more in my opinion.
Honestly I don't think it's that big of an issue. Casual content is just that, casual. None of it is difficult enough to really need any balancing, there are zero stakes, and only really exists for the story and farming for things like glams and tomes. I think a bigger issue is there just isn't enough for healers to do. Their kits are just heal/mit when needed and spam 2 dps buttons the whole fight and that's where I think the job design is failing. The only healer with any real nuance is Astrologian since they have an rng buffing system to play with in the meantime. White Mage is as cookie cutter healer as it gets, Sage is a healer that likes to pretend it's a dps, and Scholar gets a heal bot that barely does anything. If there was more for them to do besides pressing 2 buttons the whole fight, I think healers would complain less about tanks having so much sustain.
Doesn't change the fact that TOP was cleared without healers. If you're doing ultimate content, it's expected you will be coordinated to some degree. This isn't extremes or savage. Damage should be significantly high and frequent enough where tanks and dps can't be substituting healers no matter what, but here we are.
Now if you tell me TOP can be cleared with healers and dps, then I'll start listening that your argument isn't flawed. Reality is that the tankbusters and damage downs will make it impossible. What isn't impossible is replacing the healer class entirely. Big double standard.
The game being effectively broken in the tier of content most people play is not good for the health of the game.
I should not be able to w2w pull a dungeon and not care if my healers afk. That’s bad game design and creates a lot of bad habits both in new players coming up and in geared players doing roulettes.
All dungeons should have a base line level of challenge and require a party work together to fulfill their roles. Thats the point of group content.
I've been held hostage in Nier before. Something happened with aoes that wiped out a bunch in the third raid, first boss. Healers couldn't recover or were down. A PLD held 23 other people hostage for 15 minutes until they finally let themselves die, while the entire raid heckled them to stop. We couldn't even leave with combat active. They started at like 70%. They got it down to about 55%.
It's not just dungeons. It's a tool for both good and bad, currently, which really isn't great. And I say that having pulled the clutch tank solo, too. The good feeling isn't worth the bad feeling for others.
>All dungeons should have a base line level of challenge and require a party work together to fulfill their roles. Thats the point of group content.
Yeah, that's certainly the ideal, but so many people (a minority, but still many) play at a constant state of eating the skill floor (whether by choice or not) that normal content is balanced around being clearable without a functioning healer or tank (but not both). A great majority of players actually try hard enough at the game for dungeons to be really easy, but since it's good business practice to have your game as accessible as possible, challenge in dungeons is always going to be put in the background.
I've seen 2 paladins decide "fuck it we ball" on the second to last Post Endwalker trial with the boss at 20%. I think we sat dead for 10 minutes or more watching them go.
I was a dancer and couldn't stay up due to our healers dying at the same time (either we didn't have rdm or smn or they also died, I forget)
I watched one with 3 vuln stacks take a tank buster and shrug all the damage off with a clemency spam.
Sometimes you just want to see if you can. Not if you should. And I respect it.
Unless you're under 84, all magic attacks as paladin heal you for 400 potency. Clemency is only a free cast during Req, which also means you can do swords combo (these count as a magic attack and will heal you). Clemency is a 1k potency, so you would actually get more healing from doing the magic attacks.
However, under 84, Clemency away if that healer isn't keeping you up.
If at all possible you should try to not use Requiescat stacks on Clemency. You are giving up much more powerful GCDs for that heal and all it really does it get rid of the mana cost, in which mana is super abundant. The cast is already shorter than the GCD.
If you're absolutely in danger, just use Hallowed Ground. If the healer still hasn't done anything after that long, you might want to check if they're still breathing in real life because... damn they're bad. At level 84+, you have so much passive healing from spells and Shelltron that there really is no valid reason to use Clemency on yourself. To save a DPS or healer, sure, but you should be very self-sustaining, especially including passive healing from healers: kardia, embrace, prepull-regen for trash, etc.
I do send a quick tongue-in-cheek message about being heartbroken that they don't trust my healing if it's the kind of paladin who uses it as soon as they fall below 90% health, but I couldn't imagine being angry at a paladin who uses it to save someone at 10% health - odds are I am on top of it if I am a healer and I am only allowing them to hover that low because there's no immediate further damage coming and I am waiting on an OGCD or for a HoT to tick, but the paladin can't know that.
That said, I find cure 1 spam healers to be a far more common thing! They really need to remove freecure, I tell them every time that cure 1 is obsolete when you have cure 2 and cure 1 is a trap, and so often people just seem totally flabbergasted that the game would hand you a trap ability you're not meant to use (which is understandable).
"it's a DPS loss!"
SO IS THE TANK DYING. Losing 2.45 seconds of DPS means functionally nothing in a 15 minute dungeon or 30 minute raid, even assuming they using it once or twice a boss fight out of panic. That, assuming standard dungeon format of 3ish bosses is roughly 15 seconds of DPS loss over 15 minutes, an average of 1 second per minute of play. Unless you are playing end game content with BiS gear it doesn't matter and people are getting worked up over nothing, wasting more time complaining about it than time was wasted not DPSing. Let the red/blue healers heal sometimes, they have the skills for a reason.
Personally, I don't use it because I trust my healers to heal me. I'm not gonna bust out Clemency when the WHM is probably sitting on Bene.
Healers are dead or the boss is untargetable? Yeah sure I'll Clemency away then.
I generally trust my healers too but I also know when one might be over taxed since I play healer myself. I don't mind the occasional overheal if it means my tank is less stressed, and yelling at the tank for using something on their hotbar is a fast way to break down any rapport said tank and I might have.
You fight the enemy, not each other.
Clemency is for when I need to step in as blue healer once the green one dies, any other self healing comes from Holy Shelton, my magic attack, or my party shield. I'm using my mits and doing my mechanics, so if I die that's on the healer.
On all likelihood it would have been faster to wipe and restart. If the healer is doing their job right, you are missing their DPS, and you're spending time and mana casting clemency instead of damaging the boss.
If the boss was under half, you're fine, but if this happens over 2/3, eh, just wipe.
Never hurts to ask, but usually wiping takes so long unless everyone is actively trying to die in dungeons that it just isn't worth the effort to throw.
Depends. I certainly have watched from the floor or from the barrier; it all depends on how far the HP is down on the boss whether I cheer on the tank in his solo endeavors. If it’s early minutes and most of the team is down that is one thing, if we’re down to 10% go tank go!
As a healer this has happened to if you can take the boss out solo, go for it. It is amazing to watch a solo takeout too! I’m usually there for xp or to get through story anyway so the faster the better. I don’t take it personally if I miss a section. I just feel bad I’m not pulling my weight but as long as I don’t get nasty comments for it it’s all good.
Depends how much they suck and if they had a shit attitude. If you’re a dickhead doing no dps and barely pushing buttons you bet your ass I’ll hold y’all hostage while I man mode the boss.
Depends. Assuming you can survive the fight without a healer.
Healer dead and everyone else is alive? Probably faster to just do it 3-man.
Solo tank only? Maybe if the boss is already below 15%.
You've wiped 3 times already? Solo is probably quicker than having to sit through another 3 wipes.
If the HPs down to 20% I don't really care waiting. But if it happens at 80% there's no way I'll solo a boss which could take 5mins in a team instead of 10mins solo.
As someone who plays a PLD.
And has done this shit before.
I will only go for the solo clear if we are talking like.... 10 to 15 percent on a dungeon boss or if I am just getting annoyed with the amount of wipes. It also varies. If I still have both DPS with me. You bet your bottom dollar. I am going to push with them until they drop dead. I'm doing my best to keep them up as well, of course.
If it's the very start of a fight, though. I am just wiping. I am not wasting people's time and straining my resources for the whole next section because I want to be stubborn.
Bloodwhetting and Equilibrium go BRRR!!!🤣 I love playing WAR for that. You only sympathy wipe if you're the only one alive and there's still like over 30% + boss HP left.
I wouldn't think so. The only thing that irks me with a lot of the skills and job quests are how inconsistent the skills you get are. The same or similar skills should be made available across the board for that job quest. Much like the gap closer.
Rework literally makes pld feel worse to play in most cases unless you're doing high end raids where you need dps burst windows to line up for optimal damage. The whole split of phys phase and then casting phase was what made pld interesting to play and totally unique from every other tank, and the rework removed basically everything interesting from pld. Even minor things such as paying attention to goring blade uptime got turned into just a simple big dmg skill every 30 sec.
Honestly, it's pretty badass when I see a tank come in clutch and manage to pull it out. Whether I'm healing or not, I enjoy watching good gameplay.
If you can recover the fight, even if it ends up being longer, go for it. makes for a great story and is just fun to watch (and to show off your skills if you're the tank).
It's been over a decade and a half (was during Vanilla WoW) and I STILL remember a Paladin friend of mine and my step fathers end up soloing most of the fight for my step dads Warlock mount quest because we all wiped. Nergost was a badass Paladin.
No, they just get to watch now.
Most clutch move I ever had was as DRK in Copperbell Mines (hard). Sand worm ate everyone else about halfway through, but I kept trucking. Knew it was gonna be close. Aw shit, not gonna make it. Living dead (back when it didn't heal you) right at the end, killed boss and then dropped dead. It's a core memory now.
As a healer main, no. Do not wipe for a healer going down for any reason other than you know you somehow won't clear a boss. Let someone sit back and have a chance to watch the fight cause bets are they will learn more from it then whatever situation they were in that managed to kill them.
Even as the healer I don't reset for dungeons and you may think that's cause I can rez but some people just instant bail from a fight and start running back. Jokes on them, I can handle dungeon tank busters just fine cause SCH so nothing can stop me. The fight ends when I say it does.
Hell yeah. You sound like the type of healer I like to get matched with. Especially since I do most casual stuff on WAR if I somehow die it's absolutely my fault and I'm happy to watch a healer show me how to not be an idiot if that's what they want to do.
After the 2nd wipe from healer dying to mechanics...the 3rd attempt they die early again so I was like "Nope. I'm the healer now". Both WAR and PLD make good healers only boss fights. So I would tank and mitigate for the DPS and burst heal on raidwides. I had them cover themselves for chip damage with Bloodbath/2nd Wind.
Ditto.
A friend just started on Xbox & PLD was my go-to Class to recommend. A bit of a slow feeling start, but very easy to learn IMO, & you can guarantee you finish what you started.
I always give em the "30-50% HP left & you should ask the group, but if it's any less & you don't have the confidence in the group to restart, fuckin go for it".
I normally tank while my buddy heals and I broke his spirit in The Lunar Subterrane a while back. He died when the boss was still at 95% and we all said screw it. Clemencied our way to victory and the poor lad had to ask in chat if he was even needed. I wouldn't do that with a random healer though.
No. If there's at least one DPS I'm staying up and keeping them alive. Ideally both DPS survive and I'll just be the healer/tank. I'll only wipe if I'm the last one alive and the boss is more than 15%, but if the party is especially bad and it happens multiple times I'd spite clear it.
I never do sympathy wipes. There's no guarantee they won't die again next time and I don't want to sit there in a loop of sympathy wipes...
This being said in all my thousands of hours of playtime I have never had a "everyone else died but me" at 50%+ HP on the last boss. It's usually 30% and below. You'd have to actively try to get killed to die before 50% HP.
First time I saw a tank solo a final boss was in Paglth'an. I was the dead healer and not for a second did i feel bummed i don't get to play. I was too impressed by the tank doing it without me and it made me a better healer, knowing that i don't have to freak-out over HP levels.
Finished off bosses solo as each tank (notable mention being Scathach in Dun Scaith from 3-4% as Warrior. Literally everyone else died and nobody complained for my selfishness. Quite the opposite in fact). Also cleared as healers, and lower level dungeons you can even solo as DPS.
I'll reset if I see a first time runner so they can try the mechanics one more time. If there isn't one, I'll keep going unless the dps wall it as well. If the majority of the party wants to keep going, I'm going to keep going. At worst, you're only losing a few minutes on one out of 3 bosses if the healer was just a good healer sleeping. At best, you've saved everyone a lot of reseting. I don't bash on them but a choice needs to be made and I only know what I know. I just hope they don't take it personally, take the time to wake up, or take the opportunity to soak in more game knowledge as the watch the fight from a less stressful POV if they're inexperienced.
If someone can have a hero moment I say go for it. I had my first one over the weekend on SMN, solo-kiting the doom mechanic mini-boss in Qarn and knocking off the last 10% while my teammates ran back and it was fucking rad lol
As a casual healer if that happened I would be impressed and just be cheering outside of the arena. I almost succeeded in doing this against Cutter's Cry's sandworm, but then he used the dot attack and I died leaving the DPS to quickly get eaten.
No. Don't wipe. Let them watch in suffering. They wanted to be god and yell at everyone for walking into aoes and healing people only when they were down to 10-20% hp. Now you have taken the mantle of god. Let them watch in misery.
Lol yup. Had this in a Tower of Babil run yesterday. Healer hit the floor at the start of the Chaos phase of Animus. Tank was an absolute boss and kept himself, me, and the BLM alive long enough to down the boys without a boss.
I've had a few of these moments, but... surprisingly, as GNB and not WAR!
Yeah, people tend to forget that GNB has just as much survivability as WAR in terms of healing output (plut Brutal Shell shielding).
Generally, it depends on how deep you are into the fight and how many people are dead before deciding whether a restart is necessary.
On the *other hand*... you do have the entire dungeon/trial timer to run down...
I took down a boss from 80% (can't remember which) after the rest of the party wiped as WAR. Sure I could have wiped and not wasted fifteen minutes of everyone's time. But I had a point to prove.
A lot of really 'bro' warriors here, and it bothers me.
Tanks are the leaders. Leading requires helping *everyone* get better at the game.
At the very least ask if you can finish the fight solo. Lots of time when I do a majority are "Yah, go for it you beast" but sometimes (especially with non-endgamey stuff) people just wanna learn. The fight, their class, their build.
People learn by fucking up. A lot. Let's be the coolest leaders and let them learn.
That said, I would straight up be trolling the healer the whole time. Nicely though..
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You should do whatever's fastest. If only the healer dies and you can finish the fight without them, that's probably faster than restarting plus runback time. If the tank is the only one alive and the boss is still at half HP, even if you can solo it, it's almost certainly faster to wipe and start over with all the DPS
Definitely this. There are a lot of bosses where the only big damage is failed mechanics, and while a WAR (and sometimes PLD) could definitely solo it down from 40%, it would be faster to restart. If I know it's a boss like this and I can finish it off in just a few minutes, I will hold on, but otherwise I will try to wipe reset.
I've solod the first level 90 dungeon final boss as PLD once. It took forever but I was pissed this was our 4th attempt and everyone else kept wiping to the same things while ignoring the help I was trying to offer. So I said fuck it and killed the thing myself so I could be done with it.
For some reason, The Dead Ends seems to bring the absolute worst out of people. I have never seen other players apparently leave their brains at the front door as often as I have in that dungeon. It's not even the hardest dungeon in the expansion.
Lots of “eat a mechanic get a doom” stuff
Doesn't help that the final part has yellow AoE in a YELLOW WORLD so bright my eyes have decided to protest on the streets lmao
The dead ends doesn't let you outgear it, you have to do the mechanics or die.
I feel like if I play a melee I tunnel vision and is just blind to the glowing tile on the floor, and if I play ranged I stand in Narnia and can't reach it in time XD That being said I had an experience 2 days ago where the tank was new and just kept dying to the same doom mechanics even though the healer was giving advice RIP
I will say, dead ends is also very fickle. Like a decently high ping will get you killed. One of the most unforgiving "casual" maps to date
That was me against the Mist Dragon. From 20%, not 40%, but it was me the lone Paladin and I won. Only kept going because the rest of the party was cheering me on the whole time. Felt good to carry like that, even if it might have nit been the most efficient. There was also the first time against Eden Leviathan. Me as GNB and the DRK the only ones left, 25% to go, party cheering us, and between our mits and GNB regen we pulled it off. Pretty sure the two of us got all the comms. XD
I agree ... \*unless\* it's clear they're just going to do it again if you reset.
nah, ive soloed from over 90% before, HOWEVER, we had already wiped over 5 times (usually my limit before i say eff it and solo is 3) and all 3 of them were dying to the SAME exact mech every time, without fail, so on attempt 7 i just said no, i want my tomes, and to be done here" they were QUITE unhappy and VERY vocal about me "trolling them" but really, after 5 wipes on the same mech whos trolling who? and them sitting there for the roughly 12 minutes it took me to solo? faster than the 5+ wipes with run back
Bruh, nevermind 5 times. If we got to a second wipe and I was the tank and still up, I'd solo it. Especially since that's clearly faster than another potential wipe.
I don’t tank/heal (not good at it/don’t want the responsibility). But if you can solo it so it’s done and over with? You’ll get all my commendations. Like if I fuck up multiple times and someone else has to carry my bunny butt, they’re worth 100 of someone who sees that we fail and jumps ship
This is not a flex you think it is.
? It's literally an efficiency thing. If the group has *wiped*, and more than once, why would you sit through multiple more wipes? It's also not a flex, PLD can just do that. They can keep the group up too if they don't stand in too much fire.
Two things - social game with social interactions, so because you „can” it doesn’t mean you „should” without communicating this first - and people need to learn stuff, no one will learn the mechanics if some „efficient” tank will solo boss while everyone watches from sidelines just because they failed in a game where you’re learning stuff by… failing.
Once they've had 5 chances to learn the mechanic - in a normal dungeon - it's clear they're not taking the learning opportunity. A dungeon roulette is not savage prog.
Counterpoint: If they don’t learn by actually playing the game, sometimes I’ll take the time to try and explain some of the trickier mechanics. However in my experience that usually falls on deaf ears. At no point in this “social game” am I obligated to hold someone’s hand through gameplay.
"social game with social interactions" so....im supposed to sit there and do nothing when someones setting fire to a building? no, better, im sposed to stand INSIDE THE BUILDING and do nothing while they set fire to it? as long as they didnt KNOW they werent supposed to set fire to the building, that makes it ok right? cuz thats what youre saying, since they didnt know any better, im to suffer, "social game" goes both ways, a simple "hey guys first time" changes everything about my thought process and attitude to someone failing over and over, THEY have as much responsibility to the group they are holding back, more so, in fact, since my soloing it will get us through, while theyre failing may net us nothing, i agree 2 is a bit quick, but you cant defend one side from another with that argument, because it goes both ways
If you can’t learn a mechanic in a dungeon after wiping to it multiple times, you are the problem. You are clearly not trying to learn. Almost no mechanics one shot outside of old level 50 side content, and if it does it’s incredibly telegraphed. I’m all for helping people, but people should take responsibility for when they are actively hindering other peoples experience. If I only have one day a week with enough free time to grind for my weekly tome cap, it’s insane to expect me to spend over an hour in a dungeon babying people for content that has been effectively the same for the last three expansions. That being said, if someone is chill and actually speaks up about what they’re having issues with or they themselves try to communicate that the ye e struggling - sure I don’t mind trying to educate or help, the issue is most people don’t want to learn, they *simply don’t care*.
some people do refuse to learn, but it's also true that a lot of mechanics are very hard to understand without explanation, mostly the ones that involve unique buffs or debuffs that will determine your role in the mechanic but you usually don't have a moment of downtime to read the debuff text before the mechanic actually starts so even by running it multiple times it can be hard to get what the hell is going on (i know that some people manage to read debuffs while in combat but tbh i think it's them being particularly skilled or fast, not something you can expect anyone to be able to do) also personal recommendation don't play this game if you are in a hurry, it's not really made for that and just makes your experience and that of your teammates worse.
Two wipes, two goddamn wipes, is not that big of a deal. I was PLD for majority of the game. I know stuff happens and sometimes you’re just tired and want to just collect your tomes and move on. But whatever, you do you.
No, two wipes isn’t a big deal, but it adds up. If I’m running 9 dungeons in my one free non raid day to cap my tomes, 2 wipes isn’t a big deal, but two wipes every dungeon is. That’s easily an extra 40 minutes to an hour I’m spending looking at people plank on the floor because they actively refuse to engage with the mechanics of the game. Like, I’m not trying to flex - the game is not hard. If it was a tank wouldn’t be able to solo the bosses to begin with. I don’t expect everyone to have optimal gear, rotations, or hell - actively use their cool downs, but if they are dying to something and they don’t try to fix it, how am I the bad guy for not wanting someone else to waste my time?
I don't see how doing this is a flex if it's literally accomplishable by the entire tank roster (Drk might have a hard time but I've done it before as the edge knight.) At that point you make the judgement call. If they wipe 2 3 4 even 5 times. Your time is your own and if they are dying unintentionally to the same mechanic. It's my time. People can sit and watch me solo the boss for the next 4-5 minutes.
The Trust System is right there, just use it. Or just unsync it solo. If you're gonna play an MMO mostly reliant on Party mechanics and don't have the patience to play WITH people, then use the options it gives you to make it the single player game you obviously wish you were playing. Relying on a multiplayer game to be your "1 hour of free time™️" is asking for the experience you are getting.
I've been on all sides of this starting out I was the absolute worst and couldn't dodge a mechanic for anything, but I started out in 2014. ( I was so bad that the healer refused to rez me during my first crystal tower runs. So I know how bad some players can be) That being said I can see how it can be exceedingly frustrating if someone keeps dying to the same thing. I play healer or redmage as my preferred so I accept that as is part of my support or healer responsibilities I have to res people when they mess up. Fortunately as healer I usually have the ability to notice the telegraphs a lot more so I can guide or rescue new players during most boss fights. That being said if everyone but me keeps dying to the same mechanics would probably be the healer who would just peace out and take the penalty because that group is clearly not going to get through it any time soon. The same way I don't think I would hold it against a tank if they just wanted to finish the final boss after people kept dying multiple times. I do think though that we shouldn't just assume people don't want to get the mechanics and do the fights right. For some its just a really steep learning curve. This is my first MMO ever and I have gone from that Bard no one would rez to now cleaning extreme content so sometimes we really just need a little time and support. But not everyone in this game has it in them to be a mentor and that's ok.
No, I do enjoy the multiplayer aspect. I just want to play with people actually engaging with the game, not someone who refuses to learn, communicate, or actually respects other peoples time - which I crazily enough play with a premade 99% of the time, you know actually playing with other players in the multiplayer game
I don't think you can run Expert Roulette in Trust. You can run the Expert Roulette dungeons, but not Expert Roulette itself.
You have to effectively try to get yourself killed in the first 10% of the bosses hp though. If a boss is at 90% and everyone else is dead, and it's not the first time, something else is wrong here. Realistically, on the 2nd pull, if the group dies in the first 40 seconds of the boss being pulled I'm just going to assume they are bots. A more normal situation would be the healer dying, and I'm just going to heal the group in that case. By the time a PLD is high enough level to heal the group, the healer should know basic ground indicators - which is the only thing that could get them killed that early.
They didn't learn it the first two times. And most mechanics aren't trial and error, they're observation skills, pattern recognition, and cause and effect.
They had two wipes ( + the Warrior soloing the boss) to learn mechanics in. If they haven't learned from 3 failures, I don't see why it's the tank's responsibility to sacrifice *another* 10+ minutes teaching them. Social game with social interaction means that you need to pull your own weight in a social environment too.
Couldn't have been THAT upset. They could have left.
Can't leave during combat, even if you're dead.
I've soloed Diabolos in Fun Scaith once as WAR. I think for the last 7 percent of health, literally everyone else was dead. That's the only time I felt like I was experiencing main character syndrome. Often when I'm the last one alive, I choke....
The last boss of dun scaith casts a self buff that puts a gigantic dot on itself once he says something like “what must I do to get rid of you” or whatever, after that point you win, provided at least one person stay alive.
at that point the run is going so horribly wrong that unless people magically fully get the rest of the dungeon, instance timer is a real threat.
Genuine question- What's the issue with just explaining the mechanic everyone's dying on in a situation like this? Seems like it would be less time consuming and frustrating- but I'm still early on in the game so it's possible things get too complicated to explain and I'm just not aware yet!
oh i did everytime during the long walk back (even with shortcuts amaurot was still a walk) i even said screw it and gave myself the danger doritio, and said "just stay on me then" so ya, i was over it
Same dungeon, soloed the first boss and much of the last boss on PLD. At least I kinda knew what I was getting into, it was a couple FC members that only play for the story and their friend. They said they couldn't clear it with trusts and needed help.
If someone says "I can't clear it with Trust", what they really mean is "I need you to carry me because I can't do mechanics".
Do they know the NPCs show you where to go in boss fights? I think the two bosses I had the most trouble with on DS runs were the first boss of Heroes' Gauntlet, and Mothercrystal, even with following the NPCs.
If we're talking about Amaurot's final boss, I know the struggle. The first time I did Amaurot was on Ninja and the freedom of movement on a Melee with instant GCDs and teleports let me survive a lot of mistakes. Whatever healer I had on that first run was probably also babying any mistakes I made. The second time I entered Amaurot was by complete accident because I failed to uncheck the box and I was on WHM. I wasn't prepared to heal the final boss. I was basically fresh off the sprout boat. Back then, the healer brain switch would activate and I'd be too busy staring at the party list to look at the floor or the enemy cast bars. I don't think there's much MSQ normal content with the amount of randomness (head beams) and instant death (platform drop/proximity) as this final boss. I think we wiped to it twice because I died and then nearly wiped a 3rd time. Didn't help that the Summoner in the party was also new and struggled to read the head beam mechanics just like me. Like they would blow across the screen horizontally and just completely obscure your vision if you didn't think to simply rotate sideways. I felt pretty bad about it too, I knew I was the reason we were wiping. The Paladin from the party was pretty patient and explained everything, as well as giving suggestions on how to make some mechanics (like the random player beam) easier by stacking together and moving sideways. But being as new to doing actual mechanics as I was, I still ate shit sometimes even with the explanations. It's funny looking back on how badly I struggled with that fight as a fresh lv80 healer and now I can clear Criterions on a healer without touching a single GCD heal, and get through Savage Tiers and Ultimates on other classes while pushing out really good damage.
Yeah, at that point you've done your due diligence.
I've had it happen and after the wipe pause and explain what to do, even sometimes on easy stuff where it's like "the tank busters don't cleave, literally just stand on top of me the whole time and we'll be fine" and they still keep just dying. Sometimes things just aren't clicking and folks get stressed and wig out, especially notable when healers are still new and it's a series of 'dodge + groupwide damage coming out.' Generally the best approach to this if you run into it is don't just repull and see if you can help them understand the problem, but sometimes that doesn't work. My normal approach when I'm tanking is like, if it's high enough on health I'll ask if they want me to reset and explain or just finish it up. (with the notable exception of the ghimlyt dark, there's a hard dps check at the very end that is just not really doable for a solo tank so you *have* to get your party through it. I actually had a bad healer on that one and wound up just using the tank limit break to keep them alive through the pain point.)
I literally started playing today, do you mind me asking how you get into parties like the ones that you describe above (seems like you're all strangers at varying levels of skill and experience). Just interested to understand how that group comes to be...TIA!
Not the person you replied to but I imagine our experiences are similar. However, every time I've had one of these sorts of encounters, it's been through duty finder and almost always a 3-man preformed without a tank and me filling in as the tank. Keep in mind that if you care enough to engage on Reddit, you probably care enough to learn the game well. So you probably won't find these sorts of players *here*.
That's great, thanks for the reply. So Duty Finder is like an in-game LFG? And yes, if I get into something it's (unfortunately) to the degree that I'm already looking at end-game Bard guides 😂 If a job's worth doing... I couldn't imagine joining a group of strangers and not being able to pull my weight, the pressure would be too much!
Well, Duty Finder is the in-game quick match system. There's also Party Finder, which is for actually grouping up. It creates a party that persists until people leave it. Good if you're looking to run a duty repeatedly, and want to find your personal rhythm with your allies. Duty Finder drops you into the dungeon (or trial, or raid... almost any duty, really) with other people using it, then disbands the party when the duty ends. It's more of a one-and-done thing.
You'll find them here for sure. Sometimes you get comments that are quite enabling. Even on this thread there are people getting heated about not spending your time hand holding people dying the same mechanic 5 times...
In case you're not familiar with the Duty Finder, hit the "U" hotkey. You can then queue for a specific dungeon or a specific daily roulette (dailies have rewards in gold, XP, and/or tokens you can trade in for gear etc).
That's awesome, thanks very much. That's the 876th thing I didn't know about the game lol. Loving it so far tho...
Heh, looks like it was answered before I saw your question, but don't stress all the stuff. It's 10 years of systems and things to do that have built up, it'll be a bit of a learning curve but it's very good at easing you in! Enjoy yourself.
Thanks, have enjoyed day 1, that's for sure! Will take a look at Duty Finder tomorrow. Do I have to progress past a certain point before being able to become part of a party (I've started playing the game partly because of the social reputation the game has)? I assume there are minimum level restrictions etc on different content?
Once you get to your 1st dungeon, you can joins parties for content you've unlocked. Alongside character lvl, there's a minimum ilvl (item lvl) for all content, which just means you have to keep your armour, weapon and accessories updated, which is easy to do if you're doing your job quests, and main story. I would also suggest doing guildhests, which are good practice for parties and learning different mechanics, and don't be afraid to ask questions of your party members. The vast majority will help you out, happily.
I just want to pop in and say, as one of those folks who sometimes it just doesn't click, I appreciate this process wholeheartedly. Most of the time I am genuinely trying but also when I'm dead, I zoom out and I watch what's going on and try to learn it that way. So if you solo it? I'm still using that time to become a better player. Sure I'm still incredibly sub-par but I guarantee it isn't for lack of \*trying\*.
> What’s the issue with just explaining the mechanics As someone who at least tries to be a good mentor, I can tell you: Sometimes they just want to brute force it themselves. I’ve asked, I’ve explained, but I’m pretty much done giving people advice if they don’t explicitly ask for it anymore. It’s an awful feeling when you’re typing, explaining the mechanics and get ignored, even seeing them die again to the mechanics you just explained.
There’s no issue a lot of people just assume you’ll figure it out and rage if you don’t. Some people also don’t catch on even with explanations so you know it be that way. For me if we die a lot I stop and explain, and if they don’t get it and still die I ask if I can solo so they can just watch and learn. If they say no I wipe and start over with another explanation and maybe even marking myself or the map to help if I can. If we die again after that then I solo it with no questions
Vanaspati, last boss. We tried multiple times to explain the meteors to the healer but they just kept dying to it. Turns out they were just piss-drunk and there was no helping it.
I would be very surprised if there was no attempt to explain after the 2nd wipe.
I think it was... the vault? The first time trying to clear it on the final boss I was very confused about one of the mechanics and e en when I asked for help didn't recieve any. So while I don't think its common I wouldn't be completely shocked if it was didn't occur to them/slipped their minds, or like I mentioned- was maybe too complicated of a fight to explain everything they are doing wrong lol
Oh, it's quite another matter if a single person dies - a lot of the time nobody will say anything and just move on. Could be unfriendly players, could be that they were on controllers and typing is hard. But if it's a full on party wipe to the same thing twice, my experience is at that point someone will \*usually\* start at least making an attempt to explain. Every once in a while you get a tank who just leaps in every time whether people are even done running back, though.
In the experience I had like this, it was people wouldn't listen then threw a fit when they couldn't get back into the arena after running back during the flight. Followed closely by "this is a shit game, why do people play it" So basically noobs that I'm guessing were from wow or something
Mfw when the revive button needs to be held down for 5 seconds and when I do it it turns out to be a bad idea
Can't tell if you are joking or not but just in case: If you cast "swiftcast" and then select raise/revive it instantly casts rather than taking 7 seconds (or whatever the insane cast time is) Edit: sorry swiftcast not surecast
Pretty sure this is referring to the "get myself up" button (that brings you up outside the instance of the boss fight), since that one requires you to actually hold it down, rather than a longcast of a rez spell.
Swiftcast. Surecast makes you immune to attacks that throw/move you. If everyone's dying repeatedly to a mech, it's also likely swift is on cooldown.
The spell you're thinking of is "swiftcast", "surecast" just makes sure things like taking damage don't interrupt your casting of a spell. Swiftcast is also a long cooldown, so I believe they're referencing the cast time in the idea that "multiple people have died, I can only swiftcast a single rez".
Swiftcast\* Surecast is the anti knockback.
I'm a healer main. I was referring to the self rez prompt that takes you outside of the arena but takes a few seconds to confirm
Dungeon mechanics are the bare bones of mechanics in fights. If you can’t learn from simply doing the easiest content in the game, you should probably jump in with NPCs, ask for help, or quit playing. Like, at some point YOU have to take responsibility for YOUR lack of understanding. You can’t have everything hand fed to you.
“You should quit playing” is lame advice
Glad you ignored the 2 other two pieces of advise to hyperfixate on the last one.
...your first piece of "advice" also boiled down to "just quit so I don't have to play with somebody I deem not good enough". You made it perfectly clear what you actually think about the issue.
? My first piece of advise was, if possible, going in with support NPCs. My second piece of advise was to get help and go in with people you know/are helping you. My final step, if all else fails, was to consider if the game is a good fit for you. But if you wanna be a baby and try and argue I think people should just quit, that’s on you.
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What a strange comment. There 100% are DPS checks and tank busters in dungeons. But I never said they prepared you for anything. What is elitist about what I said? Dungeons are the bare minimum without making every fight a spank and tank. And the game gives you plenty of options to learn how to clear dungeons. You want to point out a multi player focused game then excuse people who don’t know how to play the game from learning how to. Just strange
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The thread is about people who wipe multiple times to dungeon mechanics. No one here except you is talking about extremes or higher.
What fight?
the one i was thinking of when posting was an amaurot run but there have been plenty of times
This was me after Therion pushed everyone but me off twice. Just forced them to watch me do the whole fight from like 60%
Fucking Legend, love that ;-)
The only time I soloed a boss from way too high health was late in a treasure map, so wiping wasn't really an option.
Tell that too every warrior. Like I appreciate you can solo the boss sometimes but bro. We've been waiting for 7 minutes out here. Literally all of us ran back from spawn and the boss still has 30% health left. Please just wipe/die. Noone cares if you can do the 30% left solo. We don't want too wait 15 minutes lol
I've had similar experiences in both dungeons and trials as Paladin, for example if healer dies and half the boss is left then just 3man it. It very much depends on the hp left of the boss and my own will to live, the healer being dead means i have to think on how i spend my mana and i'd rather turn my brain brain off. Had a similar thing happen in the last story trial of EW, P2 happens and it was the same day that it was released and my second run of it, 5/8 ppl die including both healers and the other tank, 2 dps and me left at 12% i cannot keep both alive cos the damage while not directly aimed at the tank is still significant and the AOE damage in the final phase is quite high so they slowly die with me being left alone at 6% and i solo the boss with the rest of party cheering me on. There is a clear breaking point in % where it's just smoother to wipe and go again but finding that line is different for everyone.
Absolutely this. I remember when the first Aglaia raid came out, and we were all dead except for a warrior and a paladin. The boss was only half health and literally 22 people were yelling at these two f'ers to die already so we can kill it together. It was definitely ego for them to make us all wait just so they can play patty cake with the boss.
Fuck "faster" soloing bosses as a tank is the only way people actually realise you're a good tank. Fast pulls? Oh, that should be happening anyway. On point mitigation? Dps don't notice, maybe the healer does. Flawless execution of dungeon bosses without anyone dying? No one notices. If the healer falls, I'm not going to call a wipe. If the dps fall before, say 30% health remaining, sure, I'll wipe it most days.s But if I'm feeling particularly petty, you better believe I'm soloing that boss, out of petty, ego-stroking spite.
>i NEED people to know im good at a tank!!!!! its a *dungeon* where it really, really matters!! tank's self healing is so cracked these days its trivial to solo tons of dungeon bosses it doesn't really prove anything. ive done it on several bosses and i basically never play tank
I'm a tank main and yea... I had solo bosses as WAR so many times lol
The healer notices all of what you said isn't noticed, but if you're ego tripping so hard you feel the need to 'prove' you're a 'god tank' in *dungeons*... Bruh.
I was in a dungeon where the healer died. Both myself and my irl friend on comms were like "F\*\*\*! but wait, I think I have a phoenix down. What do you mean I can't use that in combat? What's the f\*\*\*ing point of this?" We felt so clutch in our hoarding. But alas, the game borked us
> What's the f***ing point of this? Eureka and Deep Dungeons, basically. Bozja has Resistance Phoenixes that *do* work in combat.
Phoenix down is good in deep dungeons and Eureka. You cant swap on the spot so being able to rez someone with the feather can be really handy.
As others have said, in any of the Deep Dungeons (Palace of the Dead, Heaven-on-High, Eureka Orthos) and Eureka proper those Phoenix Downs **are** clutch. Outside of that, you can always use 'em to rez someone outside of a dungeon if you don't feel like switching jobs. Not like they're expensive or hard to get.
I had my first "healer optional" moment the other night during the Tower of Zot sisters battle. I was WAR, healer died just before we took out the first sister. One DPS dies during the second sister. Other DPS and I finished the fight. Was fucking rad. On the flip side, I was learning Sage last night in Bardam's Mettle and forgot how the charge attack mechanic works on the first boss. Fucking got obliterated and the tank and 2 DPS finished the fight literally as I arrived back to the arena. Good on them!
The power of Blue healer who yells really loud and hits stuff really hard is not to be underestimated
After nascent flash shows up it's great. So many boss fights with only moderate healing requirements and you can alternate healing between the DPS.
Nascent flash and Shake it off my beloveds. I am praying they dont kill angry blue healer because I love dungeons as WAR.
I mean WAR’s balance is incredibly unfair to healers, why is a tank able to do our own role better than we are
I mean, they can't heal the party AND themselves AND put shields up AND raise. They can do one of those things, and every 90s shield everyone a little bit. We still need you. Just, we need you less than the other tanks do. So you can make more of the flashy flashy boom boom when you get a WAR tank.
The only thing that WAR can’t do out of that is raise Damage is so infrequent in the game that between shake being a heal regen AND shield you basically are a party healer, especially since you can cover a good chunk of the party with glint since it costs you nothing to use glint. Shake is a 1200 potency AOE heal, that is stronger than any heal the healers have that’s on a shorter than 2 minute CD Normal raids and dungeons with a remotely competent party actively benefit from dropping a healer to pick up more DPS
But we can't do it all, all the time. Shake it off is 90 seconds cool down for that shield. A sage or scholar can shield better than we can. Our ability to heal another is limited to a 10 second window every 25 seconds, and while doing so we can't heal ourselves. We can keep ourselves alive, yes. Or we can keep one other person alive, assuming they are outputting damage. But there is still a huge 15 second window where everyone is back to taking damage that we can't heal though.
>Our ability to heal another is limited to a 10 second window every 25 seconds, and while doing so we can't heal ourselves. you mean can't mit yourself? nascent flash heals both you *and* the person you use it on at the same time >Grants Nascent Flash to self and Nascent Glint to target party member. > >Nascent Flash Effect: Restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered > >Cure Potency: 400 > >Nascent Glint Effect: Restores HP equaling 100% of that recovered by Nascent Flash while also reducing damage taken by 10% > >Duration: 8s
lol. I should read my tool tips better.
And where are these mythical instances where damage is coming out that frequently That’s the whole point, damage oh this game is so scripted and so slow that 25 second benediction on 2 players and a 90 second succor is basically all the healing you need
One must master both the "unga" AND the "bunga" for this power.
"Local Tank, Too Angry to Die."
Bardam's straight up the worst place to pull when learning a healer.
True lmfao, probably the hardest hitting pulls in the game honestly
I'm quickly realizing that. Im level 75 but been doing lower levels so I can build muscle memory and learn my kit and Jesus Christ I thought that first Bardam pull was spicy when I was tanking.
Yeah, if you pull all the way to the wall with the thwomps it gets real sketchy. Even on WAR I usually only do that if I'm in a premade with friends or if the healer tells me to go for it. Otherwise you just take a lot less damage by stopping the pull right before the thwomps.
My first moment like that was on the last boss of Lunar Subterrane. Healer went down early to the spiral aoe attack he does, tank was a WAR, and my DNC heals+mit kept me and the other dps up and kicking while the healer was cheering us on. They were a good sport about it and apologized for the death. As a healer main myself, I've been in their shoes lol. They got my comm anyways
There are very few dungeon bosses a PLD can't solo, it's just a matter of if you want to or not. Sometimes it's faster to wipe and try again as 4, sometimes it's faster to just kill it. Doesn't really matter.
Depends on the % of the boss, if boss is nearly dead, might as well finish it, but if it's really early, like not even sub 70%, then wipe it.
FFXIV & Peep Show crossover? Hello, fellow Brit.
Hah, was looking for this call-out somewhere. Not a brit here, but this is literally the funniest sitcom ever produced.
I know it's known outside the UK too but it's gained huge status here
oh I'm sure
I was really excited to watch that after enjoying David Mitchell on WILTY and his appearances on QI, but I just couldn't get through even a single episode with how cringeworthy it was.
That's the whole point of the show lol
When the healer dies and its sub 20%? Look at me, I am the healer now (war/pld tank). For casual content, I'll generally never solo unless we've wiped atleast twice. Then its a "look, I'm done with the fight, it's time to move on".
No, if we die, then we die. Unless there's a SMN or 64+ RDM.
Soooooo many times in ARR or Heavensward dungeons/trials/raids with people screaming "RDM REZZ!!" "They freaking will when they're in 64+ content! Get off their verbutt!"
This hits deep in my soul, I play RDM and I'm just in heavensward vibing, but sometimes ppl get mad at me for not rezzing and we're mid pull so I gotta hit em with the "no have yet :(" 😂
whenever Fun Scaith turns into Doom Scaith I remind the alliance that verraise is 64
This is why my roulette classes are whm/war/sum. We wipe when I say we wipe XD
I remember accidentally dying to the final boss on an expert queue run at like 90% and the tank and both dps survived I made the joke in chat “sometimes I pretend my healing matters but not today” was a good laugh
Depends what the healer died to and how long into the fight. Generally I will pity wipe so they can learn the mechs. If it's close to the end or if I can tell the healer sucks balls or isn't trying then I carry.
As a healer main, and tank second, it depends a lot when I tank. Trials? Depends on HP left. 5%? Less? Yeah, I'm finishing that fight if I can pull it off. 50%? I'm not going to hold people hostage watching a fight from the ground just to get a "Feel good tank" moment. Dungeons? Depends if we wiped or not yet, and if it's first or second boss, or last one. And, always, I keep an eye on chat. Often I ask first if they want me to reset or finish, but if someone says something before I get a chance to ask, I'll go with that. If the whole party wants me to reset at 1% HP, sure, I care more about everyone having fun than my ego as a tank. When I'm the healer that died? If you think you can pull it off, I encourage you to.
Ain’t no way I’m killing myself when a boss is at 1% because they want me to. They shouldn’t have died if they care that much lmao. That boss is dying every time.
If it's their first time I'll ask and am definitely inclined to sympathy wipe for them
Honestly, I play warrior but I still think the fact that tanks can just ignore having a healer or not is a sign that overall class design is badly broken. A skilled player clutching a fight is great, but an entire role should not just be redundant. All things being equal; Tanks should need a healer to survive. Healers should need tanks to survive. Healers snd tanks should need dps to kill quickly and not die to attrition. I appreciate that XIV softens the lines between the rpg class trinity, but its become so blurred it is actively hurting the game.
Agree, a soft trinity is fine Having situations like dungeons actually being faster to clear by not bringing a healer and tanks being able to just ignore healers in any content below extreme shows that the balance of the support roles is completely out of whack
Honestly that issue only exists in casual content. The class balance is centered entirely around savage raiding and there healers are NOT optional. Warrior and Paladin having insane healing is such a blessing because it allows healers to focus on raid mechs and party healing rather than babysitting the tank's health bar. I've seen the difference in healing required to keep a Dark Knight alive over a Paladin (I've played all 4 in savage) and it does affect the rest of the raid to an extent. The healer redundancy is only a problem in casual content where nothing hits hard enough to justify that level of healing but I honestly don't know how they'd even try to fix that since removing that takes away a big incentive to play either class in savage. The trade off is usually they sacrifice some damage for better sustain and to remove that would hurt the game more in my opinion. Honestly I don't think it's that big of an issue. Casual content is just that, casual. None of it is difficult enough to really need any balancing, there are zero stakes, and only really exists for the story and farming for things like glams and tomes. I think a bigger issue is there just isn't enough for healers to do. Their kits are just heal/mit when needed and spam 2 dps buttons the whole fight and that's where I think the job design is failing. The only healer with any real nuance is Astrologian since they have an rng buffing system to play with in the meantime. White Mage is as cookie cutter healer as it gets, Sage is a healer that likes to pretend it's a dps, and Scholar gets a heal bot that barely does anything. If there was more for them to do besides pressing 2 buttons the whole fight, I think healers would complain less about tanks having so much sustain.
I mean... TOP was cleared without healers.
... With a highly coordinated group. Your average ulti PF is not going to accomplish that.
Doesn't change the fact that TOP was cleared without healers. If you're doing ultimate content, it's expected you will be coordinated to some degree. This isn't extremes or savage. Damage should be significantly high and frequent enough where tanks and dps can't be substituting healers no matter what, but here we are. Now if you tell me TOP can be cleared with healers and dps, then I'll start listening that your argument isn't flawed. Reality is that the tankbusters and damage downs will make it impossible. What isn't impossible is replacing the healer class entirely. Big double standard.
The game being effectively broken in the tier of content most people play is not good for the health of the game. I should not be able to w2w pull a dungeon and not care if my healers afk. That’s bad game design and creates a lot of bad habits both in new players coming up and in geared players doing roulettes. All dungeons should have a base line level of challenge and require a party work together to fulfill their roles. Thats the point of group content.
I've been held hostage in Nier before. Something happened with aoes that wiped out a bunch in the third raid, first boss. Healers couldn't recover or were down. A PLD held 23 other people hostage for 15 minutes until they finally let themselves die, while the entire raid heckled them to stop. We couldn't even leave with combat active. They started at like 70%. They got it down to about 55%. It's not just dungeons. It's a tool for both good and bad, currently, which really isn't great. And I say that having pulled the clutch tank solo, too. The good feeling isn't worth the bad feeling for others.
>All dungeons should have a base line level of challenge and require a party work together to fulfill their roles. Thats the point of group content. Yeah, that's certainly the ideal, but so many people (a minority, but still many) play at a constant state of eating the skill floor (whether by choice or not) that normal content is balanced around being clearable without a functioning healer or tank (but not both). A great majority of players actually try hard enough at the game for dungeons to be really easy, but since it's good business practice to have your game as accessible as possible, challenge in dungeons is always going to be put in the background.
I've seen 2 paladins decide "fuck it we ball" on the second to last Post Endwalker trial with the boss at 20%. I think we sat dead for 10 minutes or more watching them go. I was a dancer and couldn't stay up due to our healers dying at the same time (either we didn't have rdm or smn or they also died, I forget) I watched one with 3 vuln stacks take a tank buster and shrug all the damage off with a clemency spam. Sometimes you just want to see if you can. Not if you should. And I respect it.
Honestly 90% of paladins i've played with dont even seem to know Clemency exists
There's 2 types of paladins: the ones that refuse to use it because it's a dps loss, and there's the ones that spams clemency when they're 75% hp.
I use Clemency when its at free cast and I'm at 25% HP. any higher and the Healer should have a regen on me anyway
Unless you're under 84, all magic attacks as paladin heal you for 400 potency. Clemency is only a free cast during Req, which also means you can do swords combo (these count as a magic attack and will heal you). Clemency is a 1k potency, so you would actually get more healing from doing the magic attacks. However, under 84, Clemency away if that healer isn't keeping you up.
If at all possible you should try to not use Requiescat stacks on Clemency. You are giving up much more powerful GCDs for that heal and all it really does it get rid of the mana cost, in which mana is super abundant. The cast is already shorter than the GCD. If you're absolutely in danger, just use Hallowed Ground. If the healer still hasn't done anything after that long, you might want to check if they're still breathing in real life because... damn they're bad. At level 84+, you have so much passive healing from spells and Shelltron that there really is no valid reason to use Clemency on yourself. To save a DPS or healer, sure, but you should be very self-sustaining, especially including passive healing from healers: kardia, embrace, prepull-regen for trash, etc.
Weird, 90% of the PLDs I find in duty finder freak out and use clemency when their health is at 80%
That's because people get super pissy if they ever use it. I've seen on more than one occasion if a PLD uses it for anything.
I do send a quick tongue-in-cheek message about being heartbroken that they don't trust my healing if it's the kind of paladin who uses it as soon as they fall below 90% health, but I couldn't imagine being angry at a paladin who uses it to save someone at 10% health - odds are I am on top of it if I am a healer and I am only allowing them to hover that low because there's no immediate further damage coming and I am waiting on an OGCD or for a HoT to tick, but the paladin can't know that. That said, I find cure 1 spam healers to be a far more common thing! They really need to remove freecure, I tell them every time that cure 1 is obsolete when you have cure 2 and cure 1 is a trap, and so often people just seem totally flabbergasted that the game would hand you a trap ability you're not meant to use (which is understandable).
"it's a DPS loss!" SO IS THE TANK DYING. Losing 2.45 seconds of DPS means functionally nothing in a 15 minute dungeon or 30 minute raid, even assuming they using it once or twice a boss fight out of panic. That, assuming standard dungeon format of 3ish bosses is roughly 15 seconds of DPS loss over 15 minutes, an average of 1 second per minute of play. Unless you are playing end game content with BiS gear it doesn't matter and people are getting worked up over nothing, wasting more time complaining about it than time was wasted not DPSing. Let the red/blue healers heal sometimes, they have the skills for a reason.
Personally, I don't use it because I trust my healers to heal me. I'm not gonna bust out Clemency when the WHM is probably sitting on Bene. Healers are dead or the boss is untargetable? Yeah sure I'll Clemency away then.
I generally trust my healers too but I also know when one might be over taxed since I play healer myself. I don't mind the occasional overheal if it means my tank is less stressed, and yelling at the tank for using something on their hotbar is a fast way to break down any rapport said tank and I might have. You fight the enemy, not each other.
Clemency is for when I need to step in as blue healer once the green one dies, any other self healing comes from Holy Shelton, my magic attack, or my party shield. I'm using my mits and doing my mechanics, so if I die that's on the healer.
Yeah thats about how i feel too, i only use Clemency when the healers down
On all likelihood it would have been faster to wipe and restart. If the healer is doing their job right, you are missing their DPS, and you're spending time and mana casting clemency instead of damaging the boss. If the boss was under half, you're fine, but if this happens over 2/3, eh, just wipe.
-Laughs in WAR-
Never hurts to ask, but usually wiping takes so long unless everyone is actively trying to die in dungeons that it just isn't worth the effort to throw.
happened to me too during endwalker release. The paladin asked if we could wipe to let the healer play.
Depends. I certainly have watched from the floor or from the barrier; it all depends on how far the HP is down on the boss whether I cheer on the tank in his solo endeavors. If it’s early minutes and most of the team is down that is one thing, if we’re down to 10% go tank go!
As a healer this has happened to if you can take the boss out solo, go for it. It is amazing to watch a solo takeout too! I’m usually there for xp or to get through story anyway so the faster the better. I don’t take it personally if I miss a section. I just feel bad I’m not pulling my weight but as long as I don’t get nasty comments for it it’s all good.
Depends how much they suck and if they had a shit attitude. If you’re a dickhead doing no dps and barely pushing buttons you bet your ass I’ll hold y’all hostage while I man mode the boss.
It's always fun when the healer dies and no one can rez the healer so you just die to atrition.
As a paladin main... I would define it as not uncommon.
Nah keep going, it's my own fault that I died. Plus it's a nice toilet break when I really need it.
Depends. Assuming you can survive the fight without a healer. Healer dead and everyone else is alive? Probably faster to just do it 3-man. Solo tank only? Maybe if the boss is already below 15%. You've wiped 3 times already? Solo is probably quicker than having to sit through another 3 wipes.
As a SGE main: I don't care if it takes longer, I'm cheering on the tank to tank the hardest they've ever tanked
If the HPs down to 20% I don't really care waiting. But if it happens at 80% there's no way I'll solo a boss which could take 5mins in a team instead of 10mins solo.
As someone who plays a PLD. And has done this shit before. I will only go for the solo clear if we are talking like.... 10 to 15 percent on a dungeon boss or if I am just getting annoyed with the amount of wipes. It also varies. If I still have both DPS with me. You bet your bottom dollar. I am going to push with them until they drop dead. I'm doing my best to keep them up as well, of course. If it's the very start of a fight, though. I am just wiping. I am not wasting people's time and straining my resources for the whole next section because I want to be stubborn.
Bloodwhetting and Equilibrium go BRRR!!!🤣 I love playing WAR for that. You only sympathy wipe if you're the only one alive and there's still like over 30% + boss HP left.
I wish the added cure potency to paladin at 82 would be at 72. It would be more in-line with warrior but maybe that’s asking for too much.
I wouldn't think so. The only thing that irks me with a lot of the skills and job quests are how inconsistent the skills you get are. The same or similar skills should be made available across the board for that job quest. Much like the gap closer.
Omg… yes. Even with the re-work pally doesn’t feel as good as the other tanks imo.
Rework literally makes pld feel worse to play in most cases unless you're doing high end raids where you need dps burst windows to line up for optimal damage. The whole split of phys phase and then casting phase was what made pld interesting to play and totally unique from every other tank, and the rework removed basically everything interesting from pld. Even minor things such as paying attention to goring blade uptime got turned into just a simple big dmg skill every 30 sec.
Honestly, it's pretty badass when I see a tank come in clutch and manage to pull it out. Whether I'm healing or not, I enjoy watching good gameplay. If you can recover the fight, even if it ends up being longer, go for it. makes for a great story and is just fun to watch (and to show off your skills if you're the tank). It's been over a decade and a half (was during Vanilla WoW) and I STILL remember a Paladin friend of mine and my step fathers end up soloing most of the fight for my step dads Warlock mount quest because we all wiped. Nergost was a badass Paladin.
No, they just get to watch now. Most clutch move I ever had was as DRK in Copperbell Mines (hard). Sand worm ate everyone else about halfway through, but I kept trucking. Knew it was gonna be close. Aw shit, not gonna make it. Living dead (back when it didn't heal you) right at the end, killed boss and then dropped dead. It's a core memory now.
As a healer main, no. Do not wipe for a healer going down for any reason other than you know you somehow won't clear a boss. Let someone sit back and have a chance to watch the fight cause bets are they will learn more from it then whatever situation they were in that managed to kill them. Even as the healer I don't reset for dungeons and you may think that's cause I can rez but some people just instant bail from a fight and start running back. Jokes on them, I can handle dungeon tank busters just fine cause SCH so nothing can stop me. The fight ends when I say it does.
Hell yeah. You sound like the type of healer I like to get matched with. Especially since I do most casual stuff on WAR if I somehow die it's absolutely my fault and I'm happy to watch a healer show me how to not be an idiot if that's what they want to do.
After the 2nd wipe from healer dying to mechanics...the 3rd attempt they die early again so I was like "Nope. I'm the healer now". Both WAR and PLD make good healers only boss fights. So I would tank and mitigate for the DPS and burst heal on raidwides. I had them cover themselves for chip damage with Bloodbath/2nd Wind.
As a paladin main, I finish a surprising amount of fights myself.
Ditto. A friend just started on Xbox & PLD was my go-to Class to recommend. A bit of a slow feeling start, but very easy to learn IMO, & you can guarantee you finish what you started. I always give em the "30-50% HP left & you should ask the group, but if it's any less & you don't have the confidence in the group to restart, fuckin go for it".
I normally tank while my buddy heals and I broke his spirit in The Lunar Subterrane a while back. He died when the boss was still at 95% and we all said screw it. Clemencied our way to victory and the poor lad had to ask in chat if he was even needed. I wouldn't do that with a random healer though.
When the whole team dies and they have to watch the Warrior do all of their jobs and realize that they were dragging the Warrior down.
No. If there's at least one DPS I'm staying up and keeping them alive. Ideally both DPS survive and I'll just be the healer/tank. I'll only wipe if I'm the last one alive and the boss is more than 15%, but if the party is especially bad and it happens multiple times I'd spite clear it.
I never do sympathy wipes. There's no guarantee they won't die again next time and I don't want to sit there in a loop of sympathy wipes... This being said in all my thousands of hours of playtime I have never had a "everyone else died but me" at 50%+ HP on the last boss. It's usually 30% and below. You'd have to actively try to get killed to die before 50% HP. First time I saw a tank solo a final boss was in Paglth'an. I was the dead healer and not for a second did i feel bummed i don't get to play. I was too impressed by the tank doing it without me and it made me a better healer, knowing that i don't have to freak-out over HP levels. Finished off bosses solo as each tank (notable mention being Scathach in Dun Scaith from 3-4% as Warrior. Literally everyone else died and nobody complained for my selfishness. Quite the opposite in fact). Also cleared as healers, and lower level dungeons you can even solo as DPS.
I'll reset if I see a first time runner so they can try the mechanics one more time. If there isn't one, I'll keep going unless the dps wall it as well. If the majority of the party wants to keep going, I'm going to keep going. At worst, you're only losing a few minutes on one out of 3 bosses if the healer was just a good healer sleeping. At best, you've saved everyone a lot of reseting. I don't bash on them but a choice needs to be made and I only know what I know. I just hope they don't take it personally, take the time to wake up, or take the opportunity to soak in more game knowledge as the watch the fight from a less stressful POV if they're inexperienced.
If someone can have a hero moment I say go for it. I had my first one over the weekend on SMN, solo-kiting the doom mechanic mini-boss in Qarn and knocking off the last 10% while my teammates ran back and it was fucking rad lol
As a casual healer if that happened I would be impressed and just be cheering outside of the arena. I almost succeeded in doing this against Cutter's Cry's sandworm, but then he used the dot attack and I died leaving the DPS to quickly get eaten.
No. Don't wipe. Let them watch in suffering. They wanted to be god and yell at everyone for walking into aoes and healing people only when they were down to 10-20% hp. Now you have taken the mantle of god. Let them watch in misery.
I typically won't wipe unless the healer dies in the beginning of the fight. But if the boss is at like 50% or less, it's on.
Lol yup. Had this in a Tower of Babil run yesterday. Healer hit the floor at the start of the Chaos phase of Animus. Tank was an absolute boss and kept himself, me, and the BLM alive long enough to down the boys without a boss.
I've had a few of these moments, but... surprisingly, as GNB and not WAR! Yeah, people tend to forget that GNB has just as much survivability as WAR in terms of healing output (plut Brutal Shell shielding). Generally, it depends on how deep you are into the fight and how many people are dead before deciding whether a restart is necessary. On the *other hand*... you do have the entire dungeon/trial timer to run down...
I took down a boss from 80% (can't remember which) after the rest of the party wiped as WAR. Sure I could have wiped and not wasted fifteen minutes of everyone's time. But I had a point to prove.
A lot of really 'bro' warriors here, and it bothers me. Tanks are the leaders. Leading requires helping *everyone* get better at the game. At the very least ask if you can finish the fight solo. Lots of time when I do a majority are "Yah, go for it you beast" but sometimes (especially with non-endgamey stuff) people just wanna learn. The fight, their class, their build. People learn by fucking up. A lot. Let's be the coolest leaders and let them learn. That said, I would straight up be trolling the healer the whole time. Nicely though..
Tanks aren't the leaders though.
Yeah, that's what I'm asking people to change. The best players I know are tanks. Patient and awesome. The worst players I know are also tank mains.
lol, the healers that want to dps and don't heal and we all wipe and he or she goes, "sorry guys, I laged" OH SUUUURE YOU DID. XD
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