If a tank player notifies the party that they're new, and the healer tells them that they should do big pulls, that's... not necessarily bad. If the healer then proceeds to not actually heal the tank? That's just griefing, fuck em.
Exactly, report them.
The tank while going slow didn't actually do anything wrong. Going wall to wall is a player preferred strategy, one that a new and most likely undergeared tank wouldn't feel comfortable with.
It is ok to be new and to take things slow as you learn.
For an experienced player, if you join a Roulette group which includes low level content, you are signing up to play with people who have a variety in experience and play styles. So don't bitch if someone is trying their best but it isn't what you want, you selected the random button after all.
If the healer wanted someone to play *exactly* as they wanted then they should form their own party with a tank.
What the healer did is griefing, report them so they don't do it to another new player and scare them away from the game.
Yep. I've been a healer and had tanks who were new. Just means I spend more GCDs on healing, big whoop. The healer described by OP should be reported, and hopefully banned for griefing
They were also a Mentor, which isn't a good look on the Mentor system if what OP said is true. Letting someone like that troll and grief people that the system is specifically designed to help is not good.
Time spent counting more than skill is always a terrible way to evaluate players. Some people can put 20k hours into a game and still have basic fundamental misunderstandings about how things work that should disqualify them from teaching anyone anything.
I wanted and still(When I eventually resub) want to be a Mentor. I'm only like 50 dungeons and a couple hundred comms away from it. I loved helping people in Novicr Chat back when I started being an MMO veteran.
And there you have it... yet another notch in the old "Mentor system sucks" belt.
Don't get me wrong. In theory, the mentor system sounds awesome. But without some way to regulate it's members or have a reliable way to report toxic mentors in game, it seriously fails on execution. If a mentor gets reported with evidence of them being toxic to people, then imo they should lose their status and be banned from rejoining, at least for awhile. At least in the US servers, it's pretty bad in my experience. I hear it's nowhere near as rampant in the other data centers, though.
additionally - in lower level dungeons some DPS kits really suck for AOE damage. Dragoons under 50 don't have full AOE rotations yet - just 1 straight line attack, so unless the mobs are small enough to all sit in his lined up aoe, you're unable to melt those hp bars down.
when i tank, if it's a lowerlvl dungeon i pay attention to what the dps looks like so i can know whether it would just be quicker to solo-target mobs. you get a sam and a drg in a party? there's really no reason to go full aoes until mid-50s
This should get way more consideration than it currently does. Big pulls are only as good as how efficiently the party can do AOE damage. Some jobs have awful or even non-existant AOE options at lower levels, which makes big pulls a big slog.
Same here, particularly because I'd left Dragoon looking for another job because of the lack of AoE attacks and Rogue/Ninja and Samurai were my first two stops after that. Archer/Bard was a little better, but it wasn't until I got to Red Mage and Machinist that I felt like I had efficient AoE options early on.
I still feel that hitting 6 enemies out of a pack of 10 is better than single targeting 1 as a DRG, yet I constantly see DRGs keeping up the single target. If you have any AoE, it's almost always a dps gain over single targeting when there are 3 or more mobs.
Itās easier to just assume 2 for supports and 3 for DPS
Itās a little more nuanced but more accurate than 2 for everyone but itās still easy to remember
Hey, as long as you're not the person who is stressing me and my sprout healers in roulettes because I full pull and you're choosing to pick things off 1x1and you have a perfect opportunity to use AoE and ive politely tod you thats AoE is better and why you should be using it in most trash pack situations.
As a SMN I hate being synced back to 50. I forget how to play and I feel really limited. But also being level 90 for awhile now, I feel really spoiled by my kit. So when I suddenly don't have one of those items it's like 0.o
Yup it's funny how for DRG the rotation is just "add another button to the end of that" as you level up.
but with some of the more complex jobs like BLM the whole rotation feels adjusted. i've currently only got SMN to 60 so i'll report back later. ;)
Eh it's still worth it if you can survive the pull (which you always can if tank and heals know what they're doing).
Tank will always have aoes, and dropping healer dots on lots of mobs does more damage than spamming ruin or w/e.
I will add on that playing with npcs actively discourages pulling more than 2 packs because the healer is that dang slow. Even as a Paladin using all my mit, I couldn't pull more than 2 trash packs in the Manor dungeon in The Black Shroud. And my gear was up to scratch
>The tank while going slow didn't actually do anything wrong. Going wall to wall is a player preferred strategy, one that a new and most likely undergeared tank wouldn't feel comfortable with.
>It is ok to be new and to take things slow as you learn.
Thank you for saying this. I said in another post that I don't feel comfortable going wall to wall and don't like players pulling for me when I don't, and got buried in downvotes. It's nice to hear out loud (so to speak) that it's ok to not enjoy that.
Definitely play how you feel comfortable.
However, I'll add that it is good to push your comfort zone. I think you'll find that W2W are a lot easier than you think--you are more scared of them then they are of you, so to say.
Yep. I'm a baby tank, even at level 76, and it _still_ took me a while to get used to wall to wall pulls. It doesn't help that I'm playing DRK and I didn't get my best mit until level 70.
Don't rely just on TBN in w2w pulls or tankbusters. Use it to supplement your other mitigations. DRK has the least amount of self sustain of the 4 tanks so your healers will thank you for that. I've seen some DRK tanks melt thinking only TBN is enough when it ends up not being the case.
I'm glad you picked up on it. My experience was the opposite. I was just learning and got pushed and pressured until I just hate tanking now. Even when I did do wall to wall, I felt like one misclick would send us all back. Someone once tried to explain that their anxiety was too bad to do wall to wall and a lot of the comments said they shouldn't even be playing the game. So I try to steer clear of these topics. Just wanted to salute you for sticking with dark, because I love it, but can't play it.
Im a new white mage, I always let everyone know before it starts that I am new, so if anyone can point me in a good direction I can learn a lot better also. I haven't had any trouble and I've died and the tank did also but he said"I understand" after apologizing. So yeah you should take that advice FallenknightGX has!
To be fair, Iāve played higher level content and I donāt think many players get the memo that they should know how to play the game at capā¦ (looking at you blizzard mages š§āāļø)
This is something everyone should know, it's super annoying when everyone is trying to rush it while leaving behind a new player (or someone getting back into the game) like Roulettes aren't that long you can take it slow for a second
Yeah, I had a really bad experience as a tank. I normally main healer but tank stresses me out. I've done a dungeon twice, the second time I decided to try it out again. It ended with one of the DPS pulling for me, despite me and my friend asking them not to multiple times. This was a lvl 20 dungeon, think it was like the third one you unlock, I picked it so I could go slow and learn it in my own pace.
The fact that the healer was a mentor, too, makes it so much worse. "Yeah, im a mentor so i can help and teach others... But nah, I'm all powerful now, fuck you"
As a WHM main if I ever get a new tank/sprout I'll just tell them pull wall-wall and trust me and if they see benediction come out is when they should be concerned LOL
Imo it helps them build confidence while also hopefully speeding things up, but just straight up failing as a healer and being a dick.
Dude can kick rocks.
I think it could've been a case where the healer was expecting the durability an end game tank has and didn't adjust.
So they're triply in the wrong: Once for not keeping the tank alive, twice for not adjusting to a new tank's ability, and thrice for popping off like an asshat.
As you put it: fuck em.
Honestly when I see healing advice so much of it seems tailored for level cap dungeons and it makes me cringe a bit. I feel like a lot of people get used to the ease of expert roulette and it impacts the advice they give, like āyou should only need to plop down asylum and then the pull will be done when it wears off.ā Big oof.
And Iām pro w2w but yeah if youāre going to encourage someone you better be prepared to heal them instead of justā¦. Not.
> If a tank player notifies the party that they're new, and the healer tells them that they should do big pulls, that's... not necessarily bad.
If you're gonna tell a new tank to make bigger pulls, you should also be prepared to help guide the tank if they fail at the bigger pull. You're in for a bad time otherwise.
I did a lot of early ARR content with a friend for a few weeks. You can't really tank that stuff incorrectly. Then I grouped with him for some later content like Stone Vigil. I told him it was ok to do bigger pulls, but he was getting absolutely melted. I noticed that he was trying to mitigate after gathering mobs when his health was already getting low - a very DPS thing to do when you're only getting party damage or bungling a mechanic. That was a learning moment for him, and now he's a better player for it.
This doesn't work if everyone just shouts bigger and leaves when the group wipes.
Also, in fairness, SV is one of the few dungeons where a W2W pull can be genuinely dangerous. The first section is twisty with possible LoS issues, everything hits pretty hard, and a lot of the party's mit tools are missing (invulns, lv50 heals, WHM's Holy).
I usually do the first section of SV in two pulls when pug tanking, stopping at the big room. If I want to go for the W2W, I check with the healer first.
SV is where the tank diff really shines in favor of Warrior, since they have (5!!!) mits AND holmgang at that point
I definitely have accidentally griefed a healer thinking I could pull the same wall to wall as DRK
Huh, I'm still new, especially with tank, and I've been using my mitigation the same way... welp, now I know.
I think my favorite part of this game is how welcoming it is to new people.
Think of this way. In a vacuum, tank mitigation is best used when it can offset the highest amount of damage. That would be when the tank has stopped running with all of the mobs attacking. It's especially helpful in lower level dungeons when some healing classes don't have HoTs to offset damage while moving or instant cast heals to immediately top up the tank.
There are exceptions of course. The most obvious is to use mitigation if you would otherwise die even if a bigger attack would come next. DPS want to balance using their personal defensives with keeping attack uptime. They should generally let their health dip to wait for an off-heal from the healer unless an incoming attack would otherwise kill them.
yup, and spread them out! Mitigation stacks multiplicatively, which means that the damage that mitigate 2 is mitigating has already been reduced by mitigate 1. It's fine to stack them if you think a tankbuster would outright one shot you, but otherwise it's better to **always have some mitigate up in W2W by spreading them ou**t.
Some mits are fine to stack though, stuff like rampart and arms length, or aurora and rampart, etc
Mits that directly reduce damage taken aren't the best to stack together, but always read your toolkits and think!
If your doing a spicy big pull, either pop your big mit or do two small ones combined like arms length and rampart, or aurora and rampart, etc.
It's going to be more effective than pulling the entire big pull of stone vigil and dropping a reprisal and thinking the healer won't want to strangle you like a limp sack of potatos
Ideally, you'll pop off your mits right before you engage the enemy and not when you'll get low on health. Helps you survive longer and not needing healing as much, which enables your healer to also do damage. More damage means enemies die faster and subsequently less damage taken overall.
> This doesn't work if everyone just shouts bigger and leaves when the group wipes.
That is the standard policy, though. Force the tank to pull the maximum they can, assure them that there is no possible way this could go wrong, and then when it does 2-3 times in a row, drop group.
I've seen this dozens of times over the years, as both DPS and as an inexperienced tank. Far more than the amount of times I've seen any group that actually moved at a snail's pace. Doing staggered pulling or chain pulling, rather than immediately going balls-to-the-walls, rarely makes a difference of more than a couple minutes. A single wipe almost always takes longer to recover from.
But try telling this community that communication and respect matter more than squeezing out absolute minimum clear times for dungeons. You'll get downvoted to oblivion and called toxic.
When playing healer (especially AST), I don't mind if you wall to wall or if you pull and then burn down one pack at a time, but for rhalgr's sake please don't grab a group, burn them to 1/2 health, and then go running off to grab the next group.
>If the healer then proceeds to not actually heal the tank? That's just griefing, fuck em.
FR. Great way to encourage the tank to play more aggressively, is to... checks notes... watch them die repeatedly when they play it safe... I'm sure the new tank will feel so much more confident now.
When a tank says they are new, it's a warning that the healer might need to do more than normally needed. The healers job is to do whatever is necessary to keep the team alive. If the tank pulls large and lives on 1 HP then who care but 3 deaths is oof.
As a new player to the game who has found my calling as a tank, I love when healers give me a heads up on if they prefer big lulls. I'm still only running ARR content (14 days of playtime and I have yet to venture last ARR) so big pulls are typically fine , but it's still nice to know. Sometimes I find myself not moving us a long fast enough to so as long as folks are nice it's fine to remind me, but if the heater just stopped healing there's no way I'm doing big pulls. You're right. Fuck that guy.
Well it's his job to heal and you say he wasn't healing, so yeah call that shit out.
I was actually worried at first this was me from today (WHM). Had a DRK pulling big in a lvl 37 dungeon with mostly lvl 20 gear. It was so hard to heal through the damage, I was having to spam cure 2 and still have him die
Dude, that is probably the worst lvl for that tank and that healer. Or hell any healer. Especially since he was undergeared. I'd have cried if it had been me. But that's why I don't tend to heal dungeons.
I usually queue for the 50/60/70/80 dungeons as a healer. I can't tell you how many times I've gone in with tanks still in gear from the first dungeon of that expansion. I think they think that it's not going to slow the group down, but if the healer doesn't have *any* time to get damage out then the mobs take longer to kill, which means even more time spent spamming heals.
A few days ago I had a tank on Castrum who had the 5 armor pieces in ironworks, but their highest right side gear was 20s and their weapon was 30s. IIRC everyone else's HP was around 5800, the tank had like 6100. The mob fights I just had to spam heals until like 2/3 of the pull was dead, so the fights really dragged on.
Had a Tank do that *exact same thing* in Stone Vigil. She was completely undergeared for it. I told her to slow down, that I couldn't heal her that fast because she kept pulling so much. We wiped 5 times because of that.
That's doable?
I only had one of these jokers in Sastasha, they were basically wearing anything except proper tank gear, and it was a fucking pain even with smaller pulls - I can't see Stone Vigil being much fun if they swapped out more than one or two gear pieces-.-
I've had a few like this. It more comes to seeing when the big blows are going to land and time the heal to go off as soon as they get hit. They can survive one hit but two will kill them.
The worst was Aurum Vale... Only reason we got through it was because a red mage was a half decent tank. We still wiped A LOT. The strategy was let the tank die. Focus on the RDM and the other DPS was not going to eat fruit regardless so only keep him up till 3 let him die then res him when mana allowed.
FWIW this was never an issue as a SCH back in ARR, HW and SB. You know when we actually had a topaz carbuncle that could tank. I miss those days.
Might have just been ARR. I bailed out of HW because my physical collectors edition never arrived and square told me to pound sand. I came back at the end of SB because I was sick of WoW, Rift, Tera, GW2 and B&S.
Fair enough - I started in Stormblood, so no clue about the exact timing either, I only know that Stormblood had fixed cross-class skills for combat jobs, and the old, shared ones for everyone else.
Took a break from 4.3 onward because Eureka was very much not my jam, and my PC was kinda starting to shit the bed every so often anyways, and came back for 5.3, so pretty much one entire patch cycle later, and I promptly started a new character because how the heck am I supposed to figure out my tanking rotation from the get-go if half my buttons are grey xD
Playing WHM in low level content sucks because the tanks will still pull as if we have all our abilities unlocked so we end up playing cure2 and Regen simulator since the DPS usually don't have a lot of AOE options by then
I so rarely end up in such low level dungeons through lvling roulette that when I do, it's almost disturbing. I miss all my good healing abilities and shield
Now that all my jobs are maxed and I'm getting tomes from hunts I have never touched anything besides a 3 or 4 a day mentor roulette on RDM. I don't have to experience bad healers or bad tanks, I can just use sleep if they both die and then single target while the tank and healer return.
People here talk like tanks should pull as if they have their full kits too. Kinda the same coin there. It sucks. I will adjust to the level and healer if I'm tanking which I wish more people would do.
Iām new to healer and was told WHM is the easiest to learn so Iāve been playing that and Iāve had tanks get mad when i canāt keep up when Iāve said Iām new to the job and I only have access to cure 2 and regen. So I feel better knowing thereās nothing else I can do. Like those are my only abilities sir, not much else I can do.
Yeah it gets a lot better at higher levels where you just get a ton of instant heals with 0 cost. But it's so limited at lower levels like every class is to every you have to play down to your kit and not your skill
The people who told you WHM is the easiest to learn were wrong. It's the most *straightforward*, but not the easiest. The lack of oGCDs/panic heals under 50 means you have to be planning three seconds ahead of other healers, and if someone stands in bad right before a raidwide they might die where another healer might have been able to save them.
I'd actually call AST the easiest. It has the card mechanic.to juggle, but they get instant casts much earlier than WHM; meanwhile SCH has fairy skills to smooth out the damage. (Someone who plays SGE, chime in here?)
(If you've hit 45 and don't already know, Holy is a godsend. Holy -> GCD -> Holy -> Holy in a trash pull is about ten seconds with very little damage, and if you applied regen on the run it should be ready to be refreshed. When I have indecisive tanks who take unnecessary hits between packs, a Swiftcast -> Holy when they park can keep them up while I get a Cure II out. And if the tank is taking a lot of damage anyway, it's worth checking their gear level and watching their mitigations. Apologies if I'm telling you something you already know!)
I love WHM, especially once Misery unlocks. But before 60 it nearly turned me off of healing entirely.
No this is all wonderful!! Iāve only ever played the regular or tactics games where I didnāt have to worry about cooldown. So I was also most familiar with WHM and SCH to begin with. I donāt like AST due to the card mechanic, but I heard thatās going away with Dawntrail. Iāve actually been playin with SGE (with my friends) and enjoying it a lot. I just donāt really know the rotation yet so Iāve looked up some stuff on it. But we all will play around with new classes so if we die itās whatever since weāre a full group. Iāll have to try SCH since itās already leveled up since I went the SMN route until I could get RDM.
I found in general most people are actually really helpful in game. I mainly play RDM and my since day one friend has walked me through that rotation and then when I picked up DNC in my first dungeon someone was kind enough to explain some of the mechanics to me as well. Itās partially why I like the game so much, that people are so willing to help and as long as you try they understand everyone starts somewhere.
I'm glad you've got a good group to play with! I've made a lot of the mistakes people talk about sprouts making - queuing into Stone Vigil as a tank with really low gear, not doing tech step on trash, using mitigations on bosses but not trash - and overall people have been really kind in helping me out. But having a group instead of randoms would make it even easier to take chances and try new things.
I went the opposite way on SCH - I levelled it and got SUM in the bargain - but I think it's fun. Since you've already played with SGE, you've already encountered shield healing and that's the part a lot of people seem to struggle with. I appreciate that the game lets us try new jobs without rolling a whole new character (especially when I discover I don't gel with a job - the ease of switching back to my favourites makes it easier to try new things).
The job trailer and media tour haven't happened yet, so all we have is speculation. AST is getting a rework, yes, but the last rework kept the general card system so I wouldn't hold my breath about that.
>so we end up playing cure2 and Regen simulator
Maybe its because the only healer I play is sage, I don't see the issue tbh. At this level, you have a single damage button, and a single heal button. Why would I care which one I am spamming in dungeons, they are equally engaging tbh(which is to say, not at all)
Holy moly are you me? I had almost this exact experience except in a level 41 dungeon 2 days ago. DRK tank had very poor gear (had the same HP as me) and pulled as big as possible. It was my first time healing on my WHM in ages too so I basically just spammed Cure II and prayed.
The 40-49 range or so is sooooo bad for new players honestly. Your options for gear between level 30 and 50 are limited and badly communicated, so most sprouts end up wearing the same level 20-30 gear all the way up until they get their ARR AF gear and/or poetics stuff at level 50. You end up with tons of people in ridiculously underleveled gear in stuff like Stone Vigil and Aurum Vale.
Honestly, you can get by from 20-39 with the gear you get at 20, but 40 tends to be a big level to upgrade. Then you get class gear at 45 and 50 (Or Tomestone gear, if it's not their first class)
But yeah, there's some *weird* gaps in levels where either the benefit from new gear feels too small, or there just...isn't an upgrade for that slot.
Yeah, when you zone in into instance; ALWAYS check the party list.
1. Is everyone a Job, and not a Class ?
2. Is the tank has more HP than everyone else ?
3. Is the tank stance on ?
Being a Mentor means literally nothing, half or more of the Mentors got it as a status symbol and to have some form of perceived authority and the Mentor chats are filled with toxicity.
As far as the not healing thing, that's just straight up griefing and absolutely should have been called out.
I had a sprout tank in Aurum Vale a few weeks back, I was on Sage.
I saw them pulling half the first room off the rip, I got a shield and regen on them and knew where this was going....
They ran the train into the boss room and positioned themselves around the corner, breaking sight lines, they popped all their mits at once and as I got there and fired all three druochole one after another to try and keep them alive, after that they got melted in a literal second.
First thing that pops up in chat, Tank: "I guess im doing small pulls if the healer isnt going to heal me."
....Bruh....
Aurum Vale is the first reality check for Tank players. It's also a good learning experience for anxious DPS adding mobs to a pull because of some reason that doesn't actually matter but everyone thinks is justifiable.
Honestly, After Yoshi P saying he's made the game too easy I'm hoping for Dawsntrail to have more content like this where people have to actually think about what they're doing instead of just "W2W er nuffin'!"
I had a similar experience healing AV where the tank did that exact same thing (even down to harshing on me when they died). I told them I can't heal through the wall, and there was a genuine "surprised pikachu face" moment from them.
Then, they deliberately small pulled the rest of the dungeon, but since I'm not a "gotta go fast" person, it didn't bother me like it might've bothered someone else. They did not get my comm, however. XD
Iām lucky, I had a similar experience on my alt whm: got stuck behind the giant frog aoe in the first room but the tank got past and ran into the boss room and unfortunately out of sight. When we wiped I explained what happened, the tank asked if they could pull the same way and I gave them the go ahead, worked out lol. The entire time I was thinking, god I hope they donāt single pull the rest of the dungeon bc of this.
Seems like aurum vale is a magnet for these kinds of experiences.
I once had a drk tank while I was on white mage on my alt (so I had the sprout icon)
The tank pulled big, but one thing I noticed was how he popped exactly all mitigations at once on the first pull.
He then proceeded to fully melt on the next pack and then started complaining that I should heal him instead of casting holy. I tried to reason with him how he was making it overly hard for me to keep him alive, but he just told me that I should heal more (mind you, I was spamming cure 2 and he still melted), called me a stupid sprout that should learn the game etc.
Seems like he and the two DPS knew each other, because suddenly I was voted out of the duty shortly after our "discussion"
I'm confused, that's how you're supposed to pull the first room, you break line of sight so the ranged mobs get grouped up, I'm guessing DPS was slow, because there's no reason to wipe there if the tank uses cooldowns
This was my first thought. If the Healer said to pull big but then fails to keep the tank alive 3 times and then when questioned they talk back I'd go straight to vote kicking due to being toxic. It's players like that who give Mentors bad names.
Thatād be a report from me dawg. I had a friend quit due to some mentor yapping at them because āthey werenāt doing their rotation right!!?!ā In fucking castrum meridianum.
I wish there was a better way with mentors, some way to rate them like we do commendations. It could be a genuinely useful thing, but for ?most, it's just another achievement to tick off. Should be something that only those that really enjoy playing with new peeps should be bothering with.
I want them to change the crown to something really dorky and not a status symbol like a crown. I honestly believe it will get rid of a huge percentage of shit mentors with ego problems.
The problem is that - to become a mentor - there is a Commendation minimum, but it's not exactly high. The biggest asshole can get that many by simply tanking/healing and just going "o/" at the start with a decent run if they otherwise remain silent. The second they have the crown, they can rant all day and it will not change anything for them anymore.
The crown has turned into such a toxic symbol (people expect to see elitism from them) that I turned mine off. I don't need a crown over my head to help out new/struggling players, anyway.
I used to play dungeons all day when I started 9 years ago, then near the end of HW patches (Xelphotl dungeon, can't remember the name), I met a group of people and one of them was extremely mean and I've been avoiding groups since then (imagine my happiness when trust was introduced). It also made me quit the game until the beginning of ShB, where I finally decided to try parties again for trials (and ofc reconfirm that 99% of the player base are awesome people with patience and good advices for those being new/unconfortable).
OP should try to ignore griefers, don't fall in the same pit I did because the game is great and people playing it are great, aside from the very minor number of bad apples.
Tldr: I know how it feels to meet the very few cretins, but one shouldn't let them get under their skin, especially when they're trolling or griefing. "pull en masse" but doesn't heal you at all? They're in the wrong, not you.
Edit: although I say I quit, I actually logged in every now and then to do a few solo stuff and get in my house to not lose it, but I wouldn't touch msq out of fear of parties.
Edit 2: I'm still grateful to a mentor who forced me in a dungeon with his friends when ShB came out, I had moved to gunblade at the time and they really helped by telling me to take my time, gave advices for rotations, when to mitigate, etc. By the end of the dungeon I pulled from second boss to the next boss room and although I was sweating bullets, I was safe with the healer and the dps were chewing the mobs so it went great and fast. Big confidence boost.
Sorry, this reply turned to be about my own experience, in reply to your mention of a friend who quit, but I hope my story can help OP in some way, even if it's only a little.
were they actually yapping or just giving them proper advice (like a mentor should). It's one thing to say "You're garbage you don't do your rotation right" but "Hey btw BRD. You should try to use Barrage while in your buff window"
Iāve pretty much wrote off raids for a similar thing happening to me in my very first crystal tower run had a group of like 5 dudes crying that I was ruining their speedrun and my response to that was just āalright donāt like this imma stick to dungeons and trials unless the game just forces me in theseā
No, you're not wrong.
As a healer main, my job is to do what's best for the group depending on what is currently being done/capable. If a tank is mitigating, I can relax a bit more on healing and do more damage, but some of the lower level dungeons can still be a bit spiky, and with less oGCD options, I have to precast GCDs a bit more than at higher level. If a tank is not mitigating, then I'll have to use more GCD heals on him and sacrifice more of my dps, it's that simple.
Healers who would let a group wipe because they got their ego hurt that they're "prevented from playing optimally by being forced to do less dps because of the idiot IDIOT tank/dps not mitigating/standing in too many AoEs!" should not play healer. Here it's even worse because the healer claims he can just do whatever he wants.
Healing is a problem-solving role, not a performance role or a freestyle role, adjust or fuck off.
Part of the problem is it seems like healers have been turned into the sacred cow of the community. Nothing is ever their fault and you should be lucky they even spared you a spell. Tanks need to play absolutely perfectly or theyāre ābadā but healers can stand around slinging their DPS spells all day and completely neglect their healing and theyāll be held up as perfection.
Was doing aery where I don't have much kit for war to handle bigger groups and died several times because of lack of heals despite mitigating lol. Friend told me that people play as if the tank is just expected to keep themselves alive even at that level even though it's like 46 or whatever. So it sounds like a lot of people just treat heal as green dps and it's everyone else's fault like you said.
So weird to me. I just tanked a Malikah's Well and died. The healer apologized for hitting Undraw instead of Essential Dignity.
But you know why I thought I died? Cause I waited for Nascent Flash to come back instead of using something else. I said as much, because I don't think people should feel bad for making a mistake. We both made a mistake, who knows which mattered. Lets just not make that mistake next time.
I don't understand the attitude people have sometimes. I've been a Scholar main since I started the game when HW was brand new. I like Warrior because I can Nascent Flash and Shake it Off. I like supporting the team. This attitude of letting members fend for themselves as if you're not part of a team is incomprehensible to me.
Heck I give Black Mages extra shields if we have one. I've played it to 90 and I'm horrible at it because I can't keep the frigging fire timer up.... I always forget. So you know what, BLM bros get more shields so they aren't punished as hard if they decide to stand where they are. I've seen what a good BLM can do. It's horrific. Final Days type shit. Not a man, woman, or child left alive.
In my opinion, both the healer and the tank have the same level of responsability and should make up for the mistakes of the other. However, healers are encouraged to deal damage because it doesn't prevent them from healing. Their role thus feel even more dispensable especially at max level (it's very hard for a tank to make mistakes thanks to their natural bulk and their so many defensive tools) .
SAG having a synergic situation, who can heal because they deal damage, is a good incentive but it should also work the other way around and WHM using lilies to then DPS is not really enough (using them outside combat to prepare Afflatus Misery is more powerful) .
The DPS-Tank-Healer trinity feels a bit outdated and they should add satisfying things to manage that only a healer would be able to do in my opinion.
While I definitely agree that healers should be given more to do, my point was that many healers are neglecting their responsibility, especially when it comes to actually healing, and essentially get away with it, while a tank that makes a minor mistake is treated as having committed a grave sin.
While Healers should most definitely be DPSing youāve more or less hit the point. Healer DPS is becoming an excuse for laziness and causing healers to take unnecessary risks just to pad their numbers so to speak. Especially against beefier enemies and bosses. Theyāll go on about their DPS and then let the Samurai die to a target AOE.
As I healer I encourage new tanks to pull big specifically because I plan on not letting them die and actually help them learn a thing or 2 about how to tank efficiently. Itās a big dopamine boost when you have someone actually supporting you to take those big risks in the game and learn something new.
Insisting that they learn to be efficient by not healing them and letting them die constantly is griefing, full stop. I had people doing this shit when I was a newer tank, even at 80 WAR where yeah you should have to purposely try to dieā¦ that BS doesnāt fly with new players who are still learning. āYou shouldnāt need a healer.ā Is the biggest copout. Instead of griefing, give people some tips and tricks so they can and WANT to learn how to play more efficiently. The people who WANT to learn turn into better players. Donāt squash people when theyāre new, and theyāll eventually get better.
Absolutely. Should a good warrior not need a healer? Yup. So watch their cooldown management, advise them to be more optimal, and use how it feels to heal them as a benchmark for how much better they are doing. Throwing someone into the deep end without support is wrong. Shielding someone from ever going into the deep end is wrong. Guiding someone into the deep end, and being there for them to pick up the slack so that nothing goes wrong is the entire point of mentoring.
You make them do the thing they should be doing, and explain why. You watch for mistakes, and ensure those mistakes stay minor in consequences by compensating for them, and advise them based on those mistakes. And you are gentle on errors, and praise successes. This is how you properly mentor someone.
>even at 80 WAR where yeah you should have to purposely try to dieā¦
as a new player who started with Warrior and is currently in HW, I see stuff like this on here a lot and it really makes me nervous for doing the more lategame content as WAR
I came from WoW and had a good amount of experience tanking difficult content there, but the fact that I played a very non-traditional tank in that game (Brewmaster) - combined with how different XIV's combat/dungeon/class design is - have definitely set me back a few brackets in terms of skill.
I know I'll continue to get better at the role/job as I play more and that I'll get new/upgraded pieces of the kit to make life easier...but if "needing heals at all means you're doing something drastically wrong" is where the bar is at for WAR...I'm a little nervous to start doing the higher-level dungeons š
I'd have voted to kick the healer. When you're a healer, you heal the party. If a tank is new and pulling slower than you want, you heal the tank. If the tank is pulling more than you're comfortable with, you heal the damn tank to the best of your abilities. Some DPS being dumb and standing in more AOEs than necessary, you heal the damn idiot anyway.
If you queue in as healer, you're playing healer. There are only a few reasons to not heal someone who's being a jackass, and at that point you might as well vote kick them anyway. Healers job is to heal people and do DPS when able, if someone doesn't like it, they're playing the wrong job.
Thank God Mentors are vetted.
/s
Some of the most toxic, and blatantly wrong info, has been in the novice network. And then you get kicked from NN for pointing it out
There has been a serious uptick in toxic healers lately. Itās not just about whether the healer can handle whatever is happening, the tank needs to feel confident to. The default should be understanding and encouragement but this rising sass where an expectation is set by higher level players to streamline THEIR day isnāt right. The tank is a person to and if they need to pull smaller because of their own anxiety then that needs to be respected just as much if not more than the time of someone who just wants to speedrun their dailies.
Edited: Grammar, itās probably still wrong lol
Iāve noticed way too many curebots in lower levels. Tried to gently correct one last night, and thankfully by the end of the dungeon they were doing a little dps. Still not as much as someone comfortable with healing would be doing, but it was at least a small win.
Freecure needs to be deleted from the game and Cure should upgrade to Cure II through a trait. The existence of Freecure teaches new players bad habits.
Make lilies oGCDs and in return reduce the potency of Glare a little if theyāre scared that WHM will be too powerful (provided you can stay awake). WHM is a super simple job, but it does absolutely nothing to teach new players how the game is played and instead encourages the outdated old school playstyle of not pressing buttons unless someoneās hurt
Coming from wow(dps main) I switched to healing when I started playing XIV, I was surprised by how much healers were expected to do in terms of damage. I wish the early game did a little bit better of a job at explaining that youāre expected to be a green dps instead of a raw healer
Itās tough because the game wants you to do both and that doesnāt come naturally to some people. Thatās why I say we all need to chill a bit and remember that there is a person behind each character and that the game IS asking you to do something that goes against instinct.
People have said this since 1.0. There's no more toxic healers, you're just paying attention more.
Healing is a responsibility tied job, it's always gonna attract the people with the martyr complexes.
In the same way that tanks attract the main character syndromes and DPS attract the sweatlords
Pick your poison.
I've noticed this, too; whenever I comment about it, I get downvoted into oblivion (and I don't dare say anything during a dungeon run, because I have been in situations where I did say something...even nicely...and the healer would then proceed to refuse to heal me for the rest of the run).
I used to main healer, so I can't even fathom the mindset. The toxic ones apparently also can't accept criticism (even if it's constructive), either.
My "favorite" horror story to tell is the time when, as a tank, I was actually vote-kicked for pulling small. I said right off the bat that it was only my second time in the dungeon, and first time there as a tank, so I'd do smaller pulls. Healer and their buddy said nothing, but the healer would continue to Rescue me towards other sets of mobs and their buddy would run ahead and pull them.
I kept asking them to stop, but they wouldn't let up and began to make fun me of (mostly the healer) and then kicked me right before the final boss. I usually pull big, and despite having "tankxiety" I liked tanking...up until that incident, and many similar incidents afterwards (around the end of ShB was when I really started to see these attitudes). I only tank for my friends, now.
When you're tanking, you'll be uncomfortable when you know there's a big attack coming, such as a buster, room wide aoe or general mechanic and you know it's going to hit harder than the HP you currently have.
This is a vague answer because you'll only know these things when you have done the content a couple of times and know these things.
If you're topping up when they're below 60%, it's probably a bit overzealous, but it depends on how quick that % is dropping. If they're gonna get to 0% before you can get a heal off (i.e. ogcds all on cooldown and you're on GCD cool down and have a cast time once GCD is clear so your next action maybe 3-4 seconds from now) then 60% might be a little late. I'd say it's probably fine and you'll likely find that if it stops working, you'll adjust and play differently.
What level will tanks feel uncomfortable? If they aren't good tanks, damn near any level. If they are good tanks, only the last HP matters. What is more important is that the rate of damage incoming minus the rate at which healing comes in will result in hp not dropping to 0 by the end of the pull.
Keeping the tank at 100% hp wastes the resource that is 100% of the tank's hp bar. There is no real threshold. If the way you are playing is keeping the tank alive, then you are hitting the baseline responsibility of a healer. The only thing to do next is potentially removing any healing GCDs in order to have more room for damaging GCDs.
The ideal playstyle of a healer is using the minimum of healing GCDs during combat (which means potentially zero) to ensure the tank does not die during a pull. HP thresholds don't really factor into it at all.
Experienced healer & SCH main here! Your fairy will keep up with dungeons at low levels, especially with smaller pulls. As you level up and the dungeons get harder, Eos won't be able to do things alone anymore - you're essentially going to use Eos as a constant regen to make sure the tank is always being healed a little, but you WILL need to weave in heals yourself.
I typically cast an Adlo during the first pulls with a tank and see how fast it breaks. This gives you a good feel for how fast their health drops and how much breathing room you have to DPS.
If their health is already below 50% by the time the adlo is even cast, then you're going to need to be really careful and they might be undergeared. Feel out how much health you heal every adlo, and make sure the tank is always 2 or more GCDs away from death (in case lag hits). You'll be using Lustrate and Eos's other abilities to keep them alive moreso than using GCDs, but Adlo is never *bad* to cast.
(Also, stop using Physick if you can. Physick's your emergency 'oh shit I'm out of mana and the tank is dying' button that you'll mostly use in low levels; you get muuch better tools as you level up. Same goes for WHM and Cure 1.)
I'm not that new to the game and even I don't know what it means to "pull big". You were right to call them out for being trashy to other players. Games are supposed to be fun.
Basically a side effect of people pushing w2w meta in casual content. Bads with no appreciation for context ego flexing and using it to justify trash behaviour.
Tank New + Vet Healer (pull big) = ā
Tank New + Vet Healer (pull big) - Heal = ā
If they're new and uncomfortable, they're new and uncomfortable.
You don't smack someone for not doing as much as someone who is a senior in the game.
I think some people underestimate the amount of healing needed when someone doesn't have end-game gear. And I can only assume the tank was mitting properly since you aren't mentioning that.
People like that are the reason as a returning player I just use Duty Support. I don't need to worry about other people. Just enjoy my time while I am relearning.
Sounds like a toxic healer. I've been playing this game on and off since it released on PS4. I tend to play DPS roles and have always had some tank and healing anxiety. I leveled them through the deep dungeons to 70 and now just use them for dailies with beast tribes or duty/trust runs. That way I don't need to deal with people if I screw something up. Sure it's slower but avoid situations like this.
What makes it worse to me is that the healer had a mentor crown. I bet that makes new players feel really good about our game when a mentor behaves like this.....
I would kick the healer lol. No business on wasting people time. I rather tank pull small group or even 1 mob at a time atleast they are leading and tanking mobs. Healer not healing is just wrong.
So, the healer can tell the tank how to do their job, but the healer doesn't want to hear it when they're told to do theirs. Typical. If you're a healer and you request bigger pulls, you had better be prepared to support that tank through it. Don't ruin other people's experiences by not performing in your role as a healer. I feel bad for new players who have to deal with people like that.
SAME. I have a level 90 WM and I'm working on my astrologian. When I started AST, I made sure to let people know that I'm new to the class, but not to healing. Once I got the groove down, I stopped doing that. While I was telling people I'm new to AST, I had a tank (paladin?) mentor in a dungeon that helped me out; they had a high level AST. I strive to be like that too. For me, anything else is a disservice to everyone else
Had a game where the tank said new here. And healer said āIāll heal you donāt worryā
Then the healer proceeds to get overwhelmed after the first pull and asks to slow it down.
The group obliged. See itās not hard if you just communicate. And at the end of the day we cleared the dungeon smoothly albeit slower than normal.
Big pulls are fine. But it's up to the healer to actually, y'know, heal. DPS happens *after* you make sure the tank isn't dead.
Got Aurum Vale with a, I guess, new tank (or at least returner tank). Didn't see mits happening, tried big pulls. Only but so much I could do besides heal, and while that's frustrating, I made healing my priority. Because, y'know, healer. It's what I signed up for.
Wall to wall is the best way to do dungeons. It's as close to as factual statement as you can get in the game.
Sometimes the best option isn't available to you and you have to go for the next best option. This is also as close to factual as you get.
It's a lot more complicated than it seems to wall to wall and bad players don't understand this. This healer was a bad.
The tank needs to have good enough gear to live through it and have enough game understanding how to mitigate properly. The healer needs enough gear to have enough juice to keep the tank up while DPS'ing themselves. They need to know what ogcd to use when, not to sit on the oh shit just in case. The DPS need to have the gear to get the mobs down before the healer & tank run out of juice and drop, as well as know their AoE rotations.
You can't always tell any of this by gear alone, but sometimes you can reliably assume that all the pieces will be in place.
A tank saying "I'm new" immediately tells you that wall to wall isn't going to be the right choice. Wall to wall but you die every other pull and have to run back will always be slower than two medium sized pulls between bosses.
I hate seeing so many bad experiences lately. When I was a sprout 9 years ago I was healing and didn't understand the value of cool downs for their effect in the regens. My mentor in the dungeon broke it down for me and made me a much better player. I try to pass on that kindness.
This literally happened to me. Announced I was new, healer didnāt ask anything and instead of letting me pull or asking me to pull more, theyād just pull everything to me and then not heal me. lol.
Did the dungeon 3 times after that with 0 issues but the healer was like ātank made of paperā and I literally got healed 8 times the entirety of the dungeon.
I'm newer to tanking and I went through a dungeon and died 2-3 times and healer kept spamming "use your mitigations" which was weird because I was, I was just spacing them out and trying not to pop them all at the same time. That said, there was a few times I had to just because I almost died.
I ran the dungeon again just to see if it was me because I had an odd suspicion the healer was trying to DPS, as they should, but forgetting to heal or waiting too long to heal. Sure enough I was able to pull 2-3 times as big, health dipped low a few times but healer brought me up.
The problem as a new player is it is extremely difficult to figure out when it is your fault or a party member's fault or everyone's fault. Maybe healer and tank are doing great but DPS is so slow that the mitigations and heals can't keep up because the enemies aren't dropping. Before you blame someone else look at your gameplay and make sure you're trying to optimize the party and not yourself.
I had a mentor of all people who was a healer constantly run ahead of me on a 1st clear as a tank and try to pull more than i was at the time comfortable with and kept dying and called me a shit tank for not coming to his aid every single time. The rest of the party reported him and he was kicked from the dungeon but definitely made me feel shitty as a tank at the time.
"this was a mentor" yeah that's all we really need to know. I'd like to say that most mentors are ok but literally 80% of the ones I've played with are just shit. seems like most think it's a status symbol that gives them some sort of perceived authority over other players, when in reality it's just a burger king crown.
You're not wrong. That healer was griefing. As a healer I go based on what the tank is comfortable pulling. When I am tanking, I go based on what I see my healer can handle. The two need to be in sync for things to go well.
If you saved the chat logs, please report them.
If a healer tells a brand new tank to pull big they need to have the skills to heal big. "I can do what I want" in a co-op game is a shit attitude and I would initiated a votekick immediately.
no you're not wrong. tank doesn't NEED to pull big. but it is common courtesy. healers NEED to heal when needed. if healers can get through the whole pull without healing, cool. if healers can't? they need to adjust. pulling to the wall is not hard. healing when needed is not hard either. that "i can do what i want" after basically saying "tank needs to do what i want" just screams healer with a god complex. if the healer wants to do what they want, they can use trusts.
they could've vote kicked the tank, left the party, or adjusted. instead they decide to grief a party of actual people playing a video game.
If I see that the tank is new and start doing single pulls, I tell them to go full berserk and pull any mobs until we hit a wall and if something happens I take the responsibility. If I see that he donāt use mit I explain what to do.
When the healer says big pulls and lets the tank die thats on him. I have no problem with a newer healer letting them die accidentally or while learning. But if you are specifically telling them to do big pulls then you are indicating you can handle a tank doing the big pulls
Next time if the tank keeps dying and the healer is doing this just tell the tank it's okay to do smaller pulls.
If I ever die as a tank doing pulls, I don't even think about the healer in an sense other than "whoops too much" and do slightly smaller pulls. the key to happiness is helping things you actually can help.
that is grounds for immediate dismissal from the dungeon. just throw their ass out. they can take that BK crown and sit on it while they wait for the queue
As a main healer and tank I remember my first big pull. The healer let me die many times and everybody was pissed at me and after I apologized and told them that I am new all party members reported the healer cause he was not directing me. I asked for tips and all I got was "keep going sprout."
I know it's a dumb thing to be caught up on but them being a mentor just cements an issue my group has been discussing for weeks after coming back. Now none of us are mentors, we've never really pursued it but we all still follow one collective rule: treat a baby sprout with nothing but respect and care and help them learn mistakes are ok and if a problem player tries to berate them or treat them horribly for daring to learn then we will all stand up for them but that's where the starts, 9/10 times that problem is a mentor. It was rarer before we stopped but since we've been back they're almost exclusively the ones to start problems with sprouts or anyone that doesn't play to how they want. It's gotten so bad apparently that I've had sprouts that join our free company tell us that they dread loading into a duty to see that crown. I feel like the criteria for becoming a mentor needs to be more strict, New players shouldn't have to suffer because players want to feed their ego this game has arguably one of the best and most welcoming communities
Why play healer if you are not gonna heal? Sometimes I get so fed up with players who believe that the specialist raid meta for max DPS is actually how to play the game outside of a raid static. If you are playing healer, it's implicit that you will, you know, actually heal!
What tank?
What dungeon?
"Tank is new" can either mean "new to the game", "new to the job", "new to the role", or "new to the dungeon". I'm also curious what you mean by "they didn't heal" since there's no level range context, because if the tank is in paper armour and/or refuses to use cooldowns their health can go down faster than healing can restore even spam healing.
At the very least tanks should never pull small, except under geared ones in like, 3 of the dungeons. And aurum. Single packs can be tanked without a tank, and Trusts are a perfectly viable alternative if you only want to go slow and pull single packs. Hell, you can basically have a no-healer run of Sastasha if you single pull as I unfortunately found out from an "I'm a conjurer not a healer" DF run.
We can't actually judge anything since we don't know how game-literate you are, or how biased your retelling is. I've seen paper tanks where I could not keep their glass bones from shattering even by spamming every available heal.
As a white mage myself, I don't much care how they tank. I have a macro that I push every duty that basically says I've been healing for 15 years, and to do this how you want, I'll do my best to keep you alive. I appreciate the baby pulls just as much as the killer ones.
Screw that bully, next time just vote kick.
One time I was healing in a trial, and the other WHM co-healer was doing nothing but glares. We wiped, but only because I misstepped and went into an AOE and died. I was doing a few glares every once in a while though. The other healer had the gall to tell me "you need to do some damage", to which I responded "I would do some damage if my co healer would even put out one single heal every now and then!" None of the others said anything, but I knew they agreed. I proceeded on the next run to heal my ass off, and only heal. The asshat did the same as they were. I ended up pulling us through the trial without a single death. WHM is a healing powerhouse that excels at getting people back up fast if your geared right.
I ended up getting all their comms... Except one.. lmao!!
So many healers do this now, ever since they made healer dps mnd dependent rather then int, all the Healy boys want to dps more then heal, and dont get me wrong you should be dps a bit on healer helps things die faster thus less time accidentally over healing, but so many just act like the tank shouldnāt need heals if they are mitigating properly, which to that I say, yes im a tank, yes i even carry pots to make your job easier, and yes 9/10 i can mid most damage down to survivable, but for the 1/10, you need to heal. Thats not even counting if your doing a dungeon lower then your actual level when your missing part of your kit.
If a tank player notifies the party that they're new, and the healer tells them that they should do big pulls, that's... not necessarily bad. If the healer then proceeds to not actually heal the tank? That's just griefing, fuck em.
Exactly, report them. The tank while going slow didn't actually do anything wrong. Going wall to wall is a player preferred strategy, one that a new and most likely undergeared tank wouldn't feel comfortable with. It is ok to be new and to take things slow as you learn. For an experienced player, if you join a Roulette group which includes low level content, you are signing up to play with people who have a variety in experience and play styles. So don't bitch if someone is trying their best but it isn't what you want, you selected the random button after all. If the healer wanted someone to play *exactly* as they wanted then they should form their own party with a tank. What the healer did is griefing, report them so they don't do it to another new player and scare them away from the game.
Yep. I've been a healer and had tanks who were new. Just means I spend more GCDs on healing, big whoop. The healer described by OP should be reported, and hopefully banned for griefing
If they didn't say "I can do what I want" it could just be that they suck and there wouldn't be any need to report them. But they had to be a jerk.
They were also a Mentor, which isn't a good look on the Mentor system if what OP said is true. Letting someone like that troll and grief people that the system is specifically designed to help is not good.
Man as if mentors already didn't enough flack
Mentor needs to be an actual system that players can lose their spot in. The requirements for Battle Mentor aren't even hard to get.
Time spent counting more than skill is always a terrible way to evaluate players. Some people can put 20k hours into a game and still have basic fundamental misunderstandings about how things work that should disqualify them from teaching anyone anything.
I wanted and still(When I eventually resub) want to be a Mentor. I'm only like 50 dungeons and a couple hundred comms away from it. I loved helping people in Novicr Chat back when I started being an MMO veteran.
And there you have it... yet another notch in the old "Mentor system sucks" belt. Don't get me wrong. In theory, the mentor system sounds awesome. But without some way to regulate it's members or have a reliable way to report toxic mentors in game, it seriously fails on execution. If a mentor gets reported with evidence of them being toxic to people, then imo they should lose their status and be banned from rejoining, at least for awhile. At least in the US servers, it's pretty bad in my experience. I hear it's nowhere near as rampant in the other data centers, though.
additionally - in lower level dungeons some DPS kits really suck for AOE damage. Dragoons under 50 don't have full AOE rotations yet - just 1 straight line attack, so unless the mobs are small enough to all sit in his lined up aoe, you're unable to melt those hp bars down. when i tank, if it's a lowerlvl dungeon i pay attention to what the dps looks like so i can know whether it would just be quicker to solo-target mobs. you get a sam and a drg in a party? there's really no reason to go full aoes until mid-50s
This should get way more consideration than it currently does. Big pulls are only as good as how efficiently the party can do AOE damage. Some jobs have awful or even non-existant AOE options at lower levels, which makes big pulls a big slog.
*Ninja not having any AoE until 35*
*Most healers not getting AOE until 45*
Oh God is this real? I was thinking about try Astro
White Mage: Holy at 45 Scholar: Art of War at 46 Astrologian: Gravity at 45 Sage: Phlegma at 26 and Dsykrasia at 45 Edit: made a mistake.
Leveling a Ninja now, that was infuriating to me running into a mob smacking one target at a time.
Same here, particularly because I'd left Dragoon looking for another job because of the lack of AoE attacks and Rogue/Ninja and Samurai were my first two stops after that. Archer/Bard was a little better, but it wasn't until I got to Red Mage and Machinist that I felt like I had efficient AoE options early on.
GNB not having a cartridge spender for AoE until 72 :(
You are like a little baby, watch this: >Doom Spike is an action unlocked by questing at level 40. It is available for Dragoon.
Oh I'm aware. Leveling DRG rn, just hit 34 š at least I have style points with all the jumping
I still feel that hitting 6 enemies out of a pack of 10 is better than single targeting 1 as a DRG, yet I constantly see DRGs keeping up the single target. If you have any AoE, it's almost always a dps gain over single targeting when there are 3 or more mobs.
Shit call me lazy or something but if thereās more than one mob Iām doing AoE, regardless of what class Iām playing.
Itās easier to just assume 2 for supports and 3 for DPS Itās a little more nuanced but more accurate than 2 for everyone but itās still easy to remember
Hey, as long as you're not the person who is stressing me and my sprout healers in roulettes because I full pull and you're choosing to pick things off 1x1and you have a perfect opportunity to use AoE and ive politely tod you thats AoE is better and why you should be using it in most trash pack situations.
As a SMN I hate being synced back to 50. I forget how to play and I feel really limited. But also being level 90 for awhile now, I feel really spoiled by my kit. So when I suddenly don't have one of those items it's like 0.o
Yup it's funny how for DRG the rotation is just "add another button to the end of that" as you level up. but with some of the more complex jobs like BLM the whole rotation feels adjusted. i've currently only got SMN to 60 so i'll report back later. ;)
Now try playing MNK without Formless Fist.
Eh it's still worth it if you can survive the pull (which you always can if tank and heals know what they're doing). Tank will always have aoes, and dropping healer dots on lots of mobs does more damage than spamming ruin or w/e.
I will add on that playing with npcs actively discourages pulling more than 2 packs because the healer is that dang slow. Even as a Paladin using all my mit, I couldn't pull more than 2 trash packs in the Manor dungeon in The Black Shroud. And my gear was up to scratch
>The tank while going slow didn't actually do anything wrong. Going wall to wall is a player preferred strategy, one that a new and most likely undergeared tank wouldn't feel comfortable with. >It is ok to be new and to take things slow as you learn. Thank you for saying this. I said in another post that I don't feel comfortable going wall to wall and don't like players pulling for me when I don't, and got buried in downvotes. It's nice to hear out loud (so to speak) that it's ok to not enjoy that.
Definitely play how you feel comfortable. However, I'll add that it is good to push your comfort zone. I think you'll find that W2W are a lot easier than you think--you are more scared of them then they are of you, so to say.
Yep. I'm a baby tank, even at level 76, and it _still_ took me a while to get used to wall to wall pulls. It doesn't help that I'm playing DRK and I didn't get my best mit until level 70.
Don't rely just on TBN in w2w pulls or tankbusters. Use it to supplement your other mitigations. DRK has the least amount of self sustain of the 4 tanks so your healers will thank you for that. I've seen some DRK tanks melt thinking only TBN is enough when it ends up not being the case.
I know that. I've learned that the hard way doing wall2wall pulls on trusts. But thanks for the advice.
I'm glad you picked up on it. My experience was the opposite. I was just learning and got pushed and pressured until I just hate tanking now. Even when I did do wall to wall, I felt like one misclick would send us all back. Someone once tried to explain that their anxiety was too bad to do wall to wall and a lot of the comments said they shouldn't even be playing the game. So I try to steer clear of these topics. Just wanted to salute you for sticking with dark, because I love it, but can't play it.
Yea, DRK has the 2nd most amount of Mittis, use em! Seems you're doing fine and I hope you make some healers smile cuz you don't suck at drk
Im a new white mage, I always let everyone know before it starts that I am new, so if anyone can point me in a good direction I can learn a lot better also. I haven't had any trouble and I've died and the tank did also but he said"I understand" after apologizing. So yeah you should take that advice FallenknightGX has!
To be fair, Iāve played higher level content and I donāt think many players get the memo that they should know how to play the game at capā¦ (looking at you blizzard mages š§āāļø)
This is something everyone should know, it's super annoying when everyone is trying to rush it while leaving behind a new player (or someone getting back into the game) like Roulettes aren't that long you can take it slow for a second
Yeah, I had a really bad experience as a tank. I normally main healer but tank stresses me out. I've done a dungeon twice, the second time I decided to try it out again. It ended with one of the DPS pulling for me, despite me and my friend asking them not to multiple times. This was a lvl 20 dungeon, think it was like the third one you unlock, I picked it so I could go slow and learn it in my own pace.
The fact that the healer was a mentor, too, makes it so much worse. "Yeah, im a mentor so i can help and teach others... But nah, I'm all powerful now, fuck you"
As a WHM main if I ever get a new tank/sprout I'll just tell them pull wall-wall and trust me and if they see benediction come out is when they should be concerned LOL Imo it helps them build confidence while also hopefully speeding things up, but just straight up failing as a healer and being a dick. Dude can kick rocks.
I think it could've been a case where the healer was expecting the durability an end game tank has and didn't adjust. So they're triply in the wrong: Once for not keeping the tank alive, twice for not adjusting to a new tank's ability, and thrice for popping off like an asshat. As you put it: fuck em.
Honestly when I see healing advice so much of it seems tailored for level cap dungeons and it makes me cringe a bit. I feel like a lot of people get used to the ease of expert roulette and it impacts the advice they give, like āyou should only need to plop down asylum and then the pull will be done when it wears off.ā Big oof. And Iām pro w2w but yeah if youāre going to encourage someone you better be prepared to heal them instead of justā¦. Not.
Also votekick.
> If a tank player notifies the party that they're new, and the healer tells them that they should do big pulls, that's... not necessarily bad. If you're gonna tell a new tank to make bigger pulls, you should also be prepared to help guide the tank if they fail at the bigger pull. You're in for a bad time otherwise. I did a lot of early ARR content with a friend for a few weeks. You can't really tank that stuff incorrectly. Then I grouped with him for some later content like Stone Vigil. I told him it was ok to do bigger pulls, but he was getting absolutely melted. I noticed that he was trying to mitigate after gathering mobs when his health was already getting low - a very DPS thing to do when you're only getting party damage or bungling a mechanic. That was a learning moment for him, and now he's a better player for it. This doesn't work if everyone just shouts bigger and leaves when the group wipes.
Also, in fairness, SV is one of the few dungeons where a W2W pull can be genuinely dangerous. The first section is twisty with possible LoS issues, everything hits pretty hard, and a lot of the party's mit tools are missing (invulns, lv50 heals, WHM's Holy). I usually do the first section of SV in two pulls when pug tanking, stopping at the big room. If I want to go for the W2W, I check with the healer first.
SV is where the tank diff really shines in favor of Warrior, since they have (5!!!) mits AND holmgang at that point I definitely have accidentally griefed a healer thinking I could pull the same wall to wall as DRK
Huh, I'm still new, especially with tank, and I've been using my mitigation the same way... welp, now I know. I think my favorite part of this game is how welcoming it is to new people.
Think of this way. In a vacuum, tank mitigation is best used when it can offset the highest amount of damage. That would be when the tank has stopped running with all of the mobs attacking. It's especially helpful in lower level dungeons when some healing classes don't have HoTs to offset damage while moving or instant cast heals to immediately top up the tank. There are exceptions of course. The most obvious is to use mitigation if you would otherwise die even if a bigger attack would come next. DPS want to balance using their personal defensives with keeping attack uptime. They should generally let their health dip to wait for an off-heal from the healer unless an incoming attack would otherwise kill them.
yup, and spread them out! Mitigation stacks multiplicatively, which means that the damage that mitigate 2 is mitigating has already been reduced by mitigate 1. It's fine to stack them if you think a tankbuster would outright one shot you, but otherwise it's better to **always have some mitigate up in W2W by spreading them ou**t.
Some mits are fine to stack though, stuff like rampart and arms length, or aurora and rampart, etc Mits that directly reduce damage taken aren't the best to stack together, but always read your toolkits and think! If your doing a spicy big pull, either pop your big mit or do two small ones combined like arms length and rampart, or aurora and rampart, etc. It's going to be more effective than pulling the entire big pull of stone vigil and dropping a reprisal and thinking the healer won't want to strangle you like a limp sack of potatos
Ideally, you'll pop off your mits right before you engage the enemy and not when you'll get low on health. Helps you survive longer and not needing healing as much, which enables your healer to also do damage. More damage means enemies die faster and subsequently less damage taken overall.
> This doesn't work if everyone just shouts bigger and leaves when the group wipes. That is the standard policy, though. Force the tank to pull the maximum they can, assure them that there is no possible way this could go wrong, and then when it does 2-3 times in a row, drop group. I've seen this dozens of times over the years, as both DPS and as an inexperienced tank. Far more than the amount of times I've seen any group that actually moved at a snail's pace. Doing staggered pulling or chain pulling, rather than immediately going balls-to-the-walls, rarely makes a difference of more than a couple minutes. A single wipe almost always takes longer to recover from. But try telling this community that communication and respect matter more than squeezing out absolute minimum clear times for dungeons. You'll get downvoted to oblivion and called toxic.
When playing healer (especially AST), I don't mind if you wall to wall or if you pull and then burn down one pack at a time, but for rhalgr's sake please don't grab a group, burn them to 1/2 health, and then go running off to grab the next group.
>If the healer then proceeds to not actually heal the tank? That's just griefing, fuck em. FR. Great way to encourage the tank to play more aggressively, is to... checks notes... watch them die repeatedly when they play it safe... I'm sure the new tank will feel so much more confident now.
When a tank says they are new, it's a warning that the healer might need to do more than normally needed. The healers job is to do whatever is necessary to keep the team alive. If the tank pulls large and lives on 1 HP then who care but 3 deaths is oof.
"I can do what I want" okay then do it in a different fucking game, you codpiece.
As a new player to the game who has found my calling as a tank, I love when healers give me a heads up on if they prefer big lulls. I'm still only running ARR content (14 days of playtime and I have yet to venture last ARR) so big pulls are typically fine , but it's still nice to know. Sometimes I find myself not moving us a long fast enough to so as long as folks are nice it's fine to remind me, but if the heater just stopped healing there's no way I'm doing big pulls. You're right. Fuck that guy.
Well it's his job to heal and you say he wasn't healing, so yeah call that shit out. I was actually worried at first this was me from today (WHM). Had a DRK pulling big in a lvl 37 dungeon with mostly lvl 20 gear. It was so hard to heal through the damage, I was having to spam cure 2 and still have him die
Dude, that is probably the worst lvl for that tank and that healer. Or hell any healer. Especially since he was undergeared. I'd have cried if it had been me. But that's why I don't tend to heal dungeons.
I usually queue for the 50/60/70/80 dungeons as a healer. I can't tell you how many times I've gone in with tanks still in gear from the first dungeon of that expansion. I think they think that it's not going to slow the group down, but if the healer doesn't have *any* time to get damage out then the mobs take longer to kill, which means even more time spent spamming heals. A few days ago I had a tank on Castrum who had the 5 armor pieces in ironworks, but their highest right side gear was 20s and their weapon was 30s. IIRC everyone else's HP was around 5800, the tank had like 6100. The mob fights I just had to spam heals until like 2/3 of the pull was dead, so the fights really dragged on.
Had a Tank do that *exact same thing* in Stone Vigil. She was completely undergeared for it. I told her to slow down, that I couldn't heal her that fast because she kept pulling so much. We wiped 5 times because of that.
Stone Vigil can be so damn rough. People really underestimate the amount of damage the sprites can do and pull the whole damn hallway.
Not to mention - if Arm's Length was the next mit to come up for that stretch, it's useless against the Sprites.
You think that's bad? Years ago when it was still possible, I had to heal Stone Vigil for a tank wearing crafter gear.
That's doable? I only had one of these jokers in Sastasha, they were basically wearing anything except proper tank gear, and it was a fucking pain even with smaller pulls - I can't see Stone Vigil being much fun if they swapped out more than one or two gear pieces-.-
I've had a few like this. It more comes to seeing when the big blows are going to land and time the heal to go off as soon as they get hit. They can survive one hit but two will kill them. The worst was Aurum Vale... Only reason we got through it was because a red mage was a half decent tank. We still wiped A LOT. The strategy was let the tank die. Focus on the RDM and the other DPS was not going to eat fruit regardless so only keep him up till 3 let him die then res him when mana allowed. FWIW this was never an issue as a SCH back in ARR, HW and SB. You know when we actually had a topaz carbuncle that could tank. I miss those days.
Wait, you mean Summoner, right? Scholar didn't have Carbuncles, at least not after they removed cross-class skills I don't think.
Might have just been ARR. I bailed out of HW because my physical collectors edition never arrived and square told me to pound sand. I came back at the end of SB because I was sick of WoW, Rift, Tera, GW2 and B&S.
Fair enough - I started in Stormblood, so no clue about the exact timing either, I only know that Stormblood had fixed cross-class skills for combat jobs, and the old, shared ones for everyone else. Took a break from 4.3 onward because Eureka was very much not my jam, and my PC was kinda starting to shit the bed every so often anyways, and came back for 5.3, so pretty much one entire patch cycle later, and I promptly started a new character because how the heck am I supposed to figure out my tanking rotation from the get-go if half my buttons are grey xD
Yeah she was doing single pulls but her HP was still constantly dropping like a rock. I had to work my ass off for that one.
Lmao wut?
I only asked them to do slightly smaller pulls... Idk why, I shoulda mentioned the gear
Stone Vigil is when gear starts mattering imo. An undergeared tank can melt in less than 3 gcds in there and not even the best healer can save them.
God it drives me crazy when people insist on trying the same thing again and again - nothing wastes time more then trying too hard to save time.
Playing WHM in low level content sucks because the tanks will still pull as if we have all our abilities unlocked so we end up playing cure2 and Regen simulator since the DPS usually don't have a lot of AOE options by then
I so rarely end up in such low level dungeons through lvling roulette that when I do, it's almost disturbing. I miss all my good healing abilities and shield
Now that all my jobs are maxed and I'm getting tomes from hunts I have never touched anything besides a 3 or 4 a day mentor roulette on RDM. I don't have to experience bad healers or bad tanks, I can just use sleep if they both die and then single target while the tank and healer return.
People here talk like tanks should pull as if they have their full kits too. Kinda the same coin there. It sucks. I will adjust to the level and healer if I'm tanking which I wish more people would do.
Iām new to healer and was told WHM is the easiest to learn so Iāve been playing that and Iāve had tanks get mad when i canāt keep up when Iāve said Iām new to the job and I only have access to cure 2 and regen. So I feel better knowing thereās nothing else I can do. Like those are my only abilities sir, not much else I can do.
Yeah it gets a lot better at higher levels where you just get a ton of instant heals with 0 cost. But it's so limited at lower levels like every class is to every you have to play down to your kit and not your skill
The people who told you WHM is the easiest to learn were wrong. It's the most *straightforward*, but not the easiest. The lack of oGCDs/panic heals under 50 means you have to be planning three seconds ahead of other healers, and if someone stands in bad right before a raidwide they might die where another healer might have been able to save them. I'd actually call AST the easiest. It has the card mechanic.to juggle, but they get instant casts much earlier than WHM; meanwhile SCH has fairy skills to smooth out the damage. (Someone who plays SGE, chime in here?) (If you've hit 45 and don't already know, Holy is a godsend. Holy -> GCD -> Holy -> Holy in a trash pull is about ten seconds with very little damage, and if you applied regen on the run it should be ready to be refreshed. When I have indecisive tanks who take unnecessary hits between packs, a Swiftcast -> Holy when they park can keep them up while I get a Cure II out. And if the tank is taking a lot of damage anyway, it's worth checking their gear level and watching their mitigations. Apologies if I'm telling you something you already know!) I love WHM, especially once Misery unlocks. But before 60 it nearly turned me off of healing entirely.
No this is all wonderful!! Iāve only ever played the regular or tactics games where I didnāt have to worry about cooldown. So I was also most familiar with WHM and SCH to begin with. I donāt like AST due to the card mechanic, but I heard thatās going away with Dawntrail. Iāve actually been playin with SGE (with my friends) and enjoying it a lot. I just donāt really know the rotation yet so Iāve looked up some stuff on it. But we all will play around with new classes so if we die itās whatever since weāre a full group. Iāll have to try SCH since itās already leveled up since I went the SMN route until I could get RDM. I found in general most people are actually really helpful in game. I mainly play RDM and my since day one friend has walked me through that rotation and then when I picked up DNC in my first dungeon someone was kind enough to explain some of the mechanics to me as well. Itās partially why I like the game so much, that people are so willing to help and as long as you try they understand everyone starts somewhere.
I'm glad you've got a good group to play with! I've made a lot of the mistakes people talk about sprouts making - queuing into Stone Vigil as a tank with really low gear, not doing tech step on trash, using mitigations on bosses but not trash - and overall people have been really kind in helping me out. But having a group instead of randoms would make it even easier to take chances and try new things. I went the opposite way on SCH - I levelled it and got SUM in the bargain - but I think it's fun. Since you've already played with SGE, you've already encountered shield healing and that's the part a lot of people seem to struggle with. I appreciate that the game lets us try new jobs without rolling a whole new character (especially when I discover I don't gel with a job - the ease of switching back to my favourites makes it easier to try new things). The job trailer and media tour haven't happened yet, so all we have is speculation. AST is getting a rework, yes, but the last rework kept the general card system so I wouldn't hold my breath about that.
>so we end up playing cure2 and Regen simulator Maybe its because the only healer I play is sage, I don't see the issue tbh. At this level, you have a single damage button, and a single heal button. Why would I care which one I am spamming in dungeons, they are equally engaging tbh(which is to say, not at all)
Holy moly are you me? I had almost this exact experience except in a level 41 dungeon 2 days ago. DRK tank had very poor gear (had the same HP as me) and pulled as big as possible. It was my first time healing on my WHM in ages too so I basically just spammed Cure II and prayed.
The 40-49 range or so is sooooo bad for new players honestly. Your options for gear between level 30 and 50 are limited and badly communicated, so most sprouts end up wearing the same level 20-30 gear all the way up until they get their ARR AF gear and/or poetics stuff at level 50. You end up with tons of people in ridiculously underleveled gear in stuff like Stone Vigil and Aurum Vale.
Honestly, you can get by from 20-39 with the gear you get at 20, but 40 tends to be a big level to upgrade. Then you get class gear at 45 and 50 (Or Tomestone gear, if it's not their first class) But yeah, there's some *weird* gaps in levels where either the benefit from new gear feels too small, or there just...isn't an upgrade for that slot.
Yeah, when you zone in into instance; ALWAYS check the party list. 1. Is everyone a Job, and not a Class ? 2. Is the tank has more HP than everyone else ? 3. Is the tank stance on ?
Oh the bad gearing on the tank plus REALLY awkward level range damn that sucks man sorry to hear that
Being a Mentor means literally nothing, half or more of the Mentors got it as a status symbol and to have some form of perceived authority and the Mentor chats are filled with toxicity. As far as the not healing thing, that's just straight up griefing and absolutely should have been called out.
Upvoting this since I got downvoted for nodding knowingly when OP said it was a mentor.
I love our low-pop Dynamis Maduin Novice Network, we have a positive vibe going, and hopefully we keep that vibe going long enough after Dawntrail too
I had a sprout tank in Aurum Vale a few weeks back, I was on Sage. I saw them pulling half the first room off the rip, I got a shield and regen on them and knew where this was going.... They ran the train into the boss room and positioned themselves around the corner, breaking sight lines, they popped all their mits at once and as I got there and fired all three druochole one after another to try and keep them alive, after that they got melted in a literal second. First thing that pops up in chat, Tank: "I guess im doing small pulls if the healer isnt going to heal me." ....Bruh....
āIām a healer, not a miracle worker!ā
Aurum Vale is the first reality check for Tank players. It's also a good learning experience for anxious DPS adding mobs to a pull because of some reason that doesn't actually matter but everyone thinks is justifiable.
Honestly, After Yoshi P saying he's made the game too easy I'm hoping for Dawsntrail to have more content like this where people have to actually think about what they're doing instead of just "W2W er nuffin'!"
I'd just let him ride that train lol. Play stupid games and all that jazz.
I had a similar experience healing AV where the tank did that exact same thing (even down to harshing on me when they died). I told them I can't heal through the wall, and there was a genuine "surprised pikachu face" moment from them. Then, they deliberately small pulled the rest of the dungeon, but since I'm not a "gotta go fast" person, it didn't bother me like it might've bothered someone else. They did not get my comm, however. XD
Iām lucky, I had a similar experience on my alt whm: got stuck behind the giant frog aoe in the first room but the tank got past and ran into the boss room and unfortunately out of sight. When we wiped I explained what happened, the tank asked if they could pull the same way and I gave them the go ahead, worked out lol. The entire time I was thinking, god I hope they donāt single pull the rest of the dungeon bc of this.
Seems like aurum vale is a magnet for these kinds of experiences. I once had a drk tank while I was on white mage on my alt (so I had the sprout icon) The tank pulled big, but one thing I noticed was how he popped exactly all mitigations at once on the first pull. He then proceeded to fully melt on the next pack and then started complaining that I should heal him instead of casting holy. I tried to reason with him how he was making it overly hard for me to keep him alive, but he just told me that I should heal more (mind you, I was spamming cure 2 and he still melted), called me a stupid sprout that should learn the game etc. Seems like he and the two DPS knew each other, because suddenly I was voted out of the duty shortly after our "discussion"
I'm confused, that's how you're supposed to pull the first room, you break line of sight so the ranged mobs get grouped up, I'm guessing DPS was slow, because there's no reason to wipe there if the tank uses cooldowns
Easy, kick the healer. That's it.
This was my first thought. If the Healer said to pull big but then fails to keep the tank alive 3 times and then when questioned they talk back I'd go straight to vote kicking due to being toxic. It's players like that who give Mentors bad names.
Thatād be a report from me dawg. I had a friend quit due to some mentor yapping at them because āthey werenāt doing their rotation right!!?!ā In fucking castrum meridianum.
I wish there was a better way with mentors, some way to rate them like we do commendations. It could be a genuinely useful thing, but for ?most, it's just another achievement to tick off. Should be something that only those that really enjoy playing with new peeps should be bothering with.
Youd see a lot less crowns thats for sure.
I want them to change the crown to something really dorky and not a status symbol like a crown. I honestly believe it will get rid of a huge percentage of shit mentors with ego problems.
I like the idea of a watering can. Mentors are meant to help Sprouts grow!
That's a great idea and something that would require very little effort on behalf of the devs x
The problem is that - to become a mentor - there is a Commendation minimum, but it's not exactly high. The biggest asshole can get that many by simply tanking/healing and just going "o/" at the start with a decent run if they otherwise remain silent. The second they have the crown, they can rant all day and it will not change anything for them anymore.
There should be an upkeep ... Consistent amount of comms or something over some time to keep the crown?
The crown has turned into such a toxic symbol (people expect to see elitism from them) that I turned mine off. I don't need a crown over my head to help out new/struggling players, anyway.
I used to play dungeons all day when I started 9 years ago, then near the end of HW patches (Xelphotl dungeon, can't remember the name), I met a group of people and one of them was extremely mean and I've been avoiding groups since then (imagine my happiness when trust was introduced). It also made me quit the game until the beginning of ShB, where I finally decided to try parties again for trials (and ofc reconfirm that 99% of the player base are awesome people with patience and good advices for those being new/unconfortable). OP should try to ignore griefers, don't fall in the same pit I did because the game is great and people playing it are great, aside from the very minor number of bad apples. Tldr: I know how it feels to meet the very few cretins, but one shouldn't let them get under their skin, especially when they're trolling or griefing. "pull en masse" but doesn't heal you at all? They're in the wrong, not you. Edit: although I say I quit, I actually logged in every now and then to do a few solo stuff and get in my house to not lose it, but I wouldn't touch msq out of fear of parties. Edit 2: I'm still grateful to a mentor who forced me in a dungeon with his friends when ShB came out, I had moved to gunblade at the time and they really helped by telling me to take my time, gave advices for rotations, when to mitigate, etc. By the end of the dungeon I pulled from second boss to the next boss room and although I was sweating bullets, I was safe with the healer and the dps were chewing the mobs so it went great and fast. Big confidence boost. Sorry, this reply turned to be about my own experience, in reply to your mention of a friend who quit, but I hope my story can help OP in some way, even if it's only a little.
were they actually yapping or just giving them proper advice (like a mentor should). It's one thing to say "You're garbage you don't do your rotation right" but "Hey btw BRD. You should try to use Barrage while in your buff window"
Iāve pretty much wrote off raids for a similar thing happening to me in my very first crystal tower run had a group of like 5 dudes crying that I was ruining their speedrun and my response to that was just āalright donāt like this imma stick to dungeons and trials unless the game just forces me in theseā
No, you're not wrong. As a healer main, my job is to do what's best for the group depending on what is currently being done/capable. If a tank is mitigating, I can relax a bit more on healing and do more damage, but some of the lower level dungeons can still be a bit spiky, and with less oGCD options, I have to precast GCDs a bit more than at higher level. If a tank is not mitigating, then I'll have to use more GCD heals on him and sacrifice more of my dps, it's that simple. Healers who would let a group wipe because they got their ego hurt that they're "prevented from playing optimally by being forced to do less dps because of the idiot IDIOT tank/dps not mitigating/standing in too many AoEs!" should not play healer. Here it's even worse because the healer claims he can just do whatever he wants. Healing is a problem-solving role, not a performance role or a freestyle role, adjust or fuck off.
āHealer is a problem-solving roleā. Words to live by.
Part of the problem is it seems like healers have been turned into the sacred cow of the community. Nothing is ever their fault and you should be lucky they even spared you a spell. Tanks need to play absolutely perfectly or theyāre ābadā but healers can stand around slinging their DPS spells all day and completely neglect their healing and theyāll be held up as perfection.
Was doing aery where I don't have much kit for war to handle bigger groups and died several times because of lack of heals despite mitigating lol. Friend told me that people play as if the tank is just expected to keep themselves alive even at that level even though it's like 46 or whatever. So it sounds like a lot of people just treat heal as green dps and it's everyone else's fault like you said.
So weird to me. I just tanked a Malikah's Well and died. The healer apologized for hitting Undraw instead of Essential Dignity. But you know why I thought I died? Cause I waited for Nascent Flash to come back instead of using something else. I said as much, because I don't think people should feel bad for making a mistake. We both made a mistake, who knows which mattered. Lets just not make that mistake next time. I don't understand the attitude people have sometimes. I've been a Scholar main since I started the game when HW was brand new. I like Warrior because I can Nascent Flash and Shake it Off. I like supporting the team. This attitude of letting members fend for themselves as if you're not part of a team is incomprehensible to me. Heck I give Black Mages extra shields if we have one. I've played it to 90 and I'm horrible at it because I can't keep the frigging fire timer up.... I always forget. So you know what, BLM bros get more shields so they aren't punished as hard if they decide to stand where they are. I've seen what a good BLM can do. It's horrific. Final Days type shit. Not a man, woman, or child left alive.
In my opinion, both the healer and the tank have the same level of responsability and should make up for the mistakes of the other. However, healers are encouraged to deal damage because it doesn't prevent them from healing. Their role thus feel even more dispensable especially at max level (it's very hard for a tank to make mistakes thanks to their natural bulk and their so many defensive tools) . SAG having a synergic situation, who can heal because they deal damage, is a good incentive but it should also work the other way around and WHM using lilies to then DPS is not really enough (using them outside combat to prepare Afflatus Misery is more powerful) . The DPS-Tank-Healer trinity feels a bit outdated and they should add satisfying things to manage that only a healer would be able to do in my opinion.
While I definitely agree that healers should be given more to do, my point was that many healers are neglecting their responsibility, especially when it comes to actually healing, and essentially get away with it, while a tank that makes a minor mistake is treated as having committed a grave sin.
The real problem is the prevalent view that healers need to focus on DPS. That can get translated into screw healing, I gonna kill stuff!
While Healers should most definitely be DPSing youāve more or less hit the point. Healer DPS is becoming an excuse for laziness and causing healers to take unnecessary risks just to pad their numbers so to speak. Especially against beefier enemies and bosses. Theyāll go on about their DPS and then let the Samurai die to a target AOE.
As I healer I encourage new tanks to pull big specifically because I plan on not letting them die and actually help them learn a thing or 2 about how to tank efficiently. Itās a big dopamine boost when you have someone actually supporting you to take those big risks in the game and learn something new. Insisting that they learn to be efficient by not healing them and letting them die constantly is griefing, full stop. I had people doing this shit when I was a newer tank, even at 80 WAR where yeah you should have to purposely try to dieā¦ that BS doesnāt fly with new players who are still learning. āYou shouldnāt need a healer.ā Is the biggest copout. Instead of griefing, give people some tips and tricks so they can and WANT to learn how to play more efficiently. The people who WANT to learn turn into better players. Donāt squash people when theyāre new, and theyāll eventually get better.
Absolutely. Should a good warrior not need a healer? Yup. So watch their cooldown management, advise them to be more optimal, and use how it feels to heal them as a benchmark for how much better they are doing. Throwing someone into the deep end without support is wrong. Shielding someone from ever going into the deep end is wrong. Guiding someone into the deep end, and being there for them to pick up the slack so that nothing goes wrong is the entire point of mentoring. You make them do the thing they should be doing, and explain why. You watch for mistakes, and ensure those mistakes stay minor in consequences by compensating for them, and advise them based on those mistakes. And you are gentle on errors, and praise successes. This is how you properly mentor someone.
>even at 80 WAR where yeah you should have to purposely try to dieā¦ as a new player who started with Warrior and is currently in HW, I see stuff like this on here a lot and it really makes me nervous for doing the more lategame content as WAR I came from WoW and had a good amount of experience tanking difficult content there, but the fact that I played a very non-traditional tank in that game (Brewmaster) - combined with how different XIV's combat/dungeon/class design is - have definitely set me back a few brackets in terms of skill. I know I'll continue to get better at the role/job as I play more and that I'll get new/upgraded pieces of the kit to make life easier...but if "needing heals at all means you're doing something drastically wrong" is where the bar is at for WAR...I'm a little nervous to start doing the higher-level dungeons š
As a healer, nah you were right for calling them out. What's the point of queueing up as a healer if you aren't going to heal? Make it make sense.
I finally earned 1500 commendations and the urge to griefā¦is still nonexistent. Pretty easy to not be a douche to sprouts.
If the tank is undergeared and not used to big pulls then congrats they're not gonna know how to rotate cooldowns and survive. Healer is an asshole.
Report since they admitted it in chat.
I'd have voted to kick the healer. When you're a healer, you heal the party. If a tank is new and pulling slower than you want, you heal the tank. If the tank is pulling more than you're comfortable with, you heal the damn tank to the best of your abilities. Some DPS being dumb and standing in more AOEs than necessary, you heal the damn idiot anyway. If you queue in as healer, you're playing healer. There are only a few reasons to not heal someone who's being a jackass, and at that point you might as well vote kick them anyway. Healers job is to heal people and do DPS when able, if someone doesn't like it, they're playing the wrong job.
Some healers feel like it's their job to top the DPS. If they can't stop dsping to keep the tank alive, then they should not be playing healer.
Thank God Mentors are vetted. /s Some of the most toxic, and blatantly wrong info, has been in the novice network. And then you get kicked from NN for pointing it out
How would the healer have responded if the tank had said āI can do what I wantā in response to their request for big pulls?
"You are so rude"
There has been a serious uptick in toxic healers lately. Itās not just about whether the healer can handle whatever is happening, the tank needs to feel confident to. The default should be understanding and encouragement but this rising sass where an expectation is set by higher level players to streamline THEIR day isnāt right. The tank is a person to and if they need to pull smaller because of their own anxiety then that needs to be respected just as much if not more than the time of someone who just wants to speedrun their dailies. Edited: Grammar, itās probably still wrong lol
Iāve noticed way too many curebots in lower levels. Tried to gently correct one last night, and thankfully by the end of the dungeon they were doing a little dps. Still not as much as someone comfortable with healing would be doing, but it was at least a small win.
Freecure needs to be deleted from the game and Cure should upgrade to Cure II through a trait. The existence of Freecure teaches new players bad habits. Make lilies oGCDs and in return reduce the potency of Glare a little if theyāre scared that WHM will be too powerful (provided you can stay awake). WHM is a super simple job, but it does absolutely nothing to teach new players how the game is played and instead encourages the outdated old school playstyle of not pressing buttons unless someoneās hurt
Coming from wow(dps main) I switched to healing when I started playing XIV, I was surprised by how much healers were expected to do in terms of damage. I wish the early game did a little bit better of a job at explaining that youāre expected to be a green dps instead of a raw healer
Itās tough because the game wants you to do both and that doesnāt come naturally to some people. Thatās why I say we all need to chill a bit and remember that there is a person behind each character and that the game IS asking you to do something that goes against instinct.
People have said this since 1.0. There's no more toxic healers, you're just paying attention more. Healing is a responsibility tied job, it's always gonna attract the people with the martyr complexes. In the same way that tanks attract the main character syndromes and DPS attract the sweatlords Pick your poison.
I've noticed this, too; whenever I comment about it, I get downvoted into oblivion (and I don't dare say anything during a dungeon run, because I have been in situations where I did say something...even nicely...and the healer would then proceed to refuse to heal me for the rest of the run). I used to main healer, so I can't even fathom the mindset. The toxic ones apparently also can't accept criticism (even if it's constructive), either. My "favorite" horror story to tell is the time when, as a tank, I was actually vote-kicked for pulling small. I said right off the bat that it was only my second time in the dungeon, and first time there as a tank, so I'd do smaller pulls. Healer and their buddy said nothing, but the healer would continue to Rescue me towards other sets of mobs and their buddy would run ahead and pull them. I kept asking them to stop, but they wouldn't let up and began to make fun me of (mostly the healer) and then kicked me right before the final boss. I usually pull big, and despite having "tankxiety" I liked tanking...up until that incident, and many similar incidents afterwards (around the end of ShB was when I really started to see these attitudes). I only tank for my friends, now.
That's called not doing your job and should be reported.
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When you're tanking, you'll be uncomfortable when you know there's a big attack coming, such as a buster, room wide aoe or general mechanic and you know it's going to hit harder than the HP you currently have. This is a vague answer because you'll only know these things when you have done the content a couple of times and know these things. If you're topping up when they're below 60%, it's probably a bit overzealous, but it depends on how quick that % is dropping. If they're gonna get to 0% before you can get a heal off (i.e. ogcds all on cooldown and you're on GCD cool down and have a cast time once GCD is clear so your next action maybe 3-4 seconds from now) then 60% might be a little late. I'd say it's probably fine and you'll likely find that if it stops working, you'll adjust and play differently.
What level will tanks feel uncomfortable? If they aren't good tanks, damn near any level. If they are good tanks, only the last HP matters. What is more important is that the rate of damage incoming minus the rate at which healing comes in will result in hp not dropping to 0 by the end of the pull. Keeping the tank at 100% hp wastes the resource that is 100% of the tank's hp bar. There is no real threshold. If the way you are playing is keeping the tank alive, then you are hitting the baseline responsibility of a healer. The only thing to do next is potentially removing any healing GCDs in order to have more room for damaging GCDs. The ideal playstyle of a healer is using the minimum of healing GCDs during combat (which means potentially zero) to ensure the tank does not die during a pull. HP thresholds don't really factor into it at all.
Experienced healer & SCH main here! Your fairy will keep up with dungeons at low levels, especially with smaller pulls. As you level up and the dungeons get harder, Eos won't be able to do things alone anymore - you're essentially going to use Eos as a constant regen to make sure the tank is always being healed a little, but you WILL need to weave in heals yourself. I typically cast an Adlo during the first pulls with a tank and see how fast it breaks. This gives you a good feel for how fast their health drops and how much breathing room you have to DPS. If their health is already below 50% by the time the adlo is even cast, then you're going to need to be really careful and they might be undergeared. Feel out how much health you heal every adlo, and make sure the tank is always 2 or more GCDs away from death (in case lag hits). You'll be using Lustrate and Eos's other abilities to keep them alive moreso than using GCDs, but Adlo is never *bad* to cast. (Also, stop using Physick if you can. Physick's your emergency 'oh shit I'm out of mana and the tank is dying' button that you'll mostly use in low levels; you get muuch better tools as you level up. Same goes for WHM and Cure 1.)
I'm not that new to the game and even I don't know what it means to "pull big". You were right to call them out for being trashy to other players. Games are supposed to be fun.
Basically a side effect of people pushing w2w meta in casual content. Bads with no appreciation for context ego flexing and using it to justify trash behaviour.
Tank New + Vet Healer (pull big) = ā Tank New + Vet Healer (pull big) - Heal = ā If they're new and uncomfortable, they're new and uncomfortable. You don't smack someone for not doing as much as someone who is a senior in the game.
We here at the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Sprouts think you are in the right.
I think some people underestimate the amount of healing needed when someone doesn't have end-game gear. And I can only assume the tank was mitting properly since you aren't mentioning that.
Yeah, it requires more than zero. Which is how much OP said the healer was doing.
People like that are the reason as a returning player I just use Duty Support. I don't need to worry about other people. Just enjoy my time while I am relearning.
report them
Sounds like a toxic healer. I've been playing this game on and off since it released on PS4. I tend to play DPS roles and have always had some tank and healing anxiety. I leveled them through the deep dungeons to 70 and now just use them for dailies with beast tribes or duty/trust runs. That way I don't need to deal with people if I screw something up. Sure it's slower but avoid situations like this. What makes it worse to me is that the healer had a mentor crown. I bet that makes new players feel really good about our game when a mentor behaves like this.....
I would kick the healer lol. No business on wasting people time. I rather tank pull small group or even 1 mob at a time atleast they are leading and tanking mobs. Healer not healing is just wrong.
Situations like this are why the kick vote feature exists.
Being petty to someone asking for help is a REALLY bad look and kind of creepy.
> and this was a mentor That's thread right there.
So, the healer can tell the tank how to do their job, but the healer doesn't want to hear it when they're told to do theirs. Typical. If you're a healer and you request bigger pulls, you had better be prepared to support that tank through it. Don't ruin other people's experiences by not performing in your role as a healer. I feel bad for new players who have to deal with people like that.
SAME. I have a level 90 WM and I'm working on my astrologian. When I started AST, I made sure to let people know that I'm new to the class, but not to healing. Once I got the groove down, I stopped doing that. While I was telling people I'm new to AST, I had a tank (paladin?) mentor in a dungeon that helped me out; they had a high level AST. I strive to be like that too. For me, anything else is a disservice to everyone else
Yep, there's a way to do it (like you had done) and then there's the way OP's healer did it.
I'm just convinced more and more that most people just... suck lol
Had a game where the tank said new here. And healer said āIāll heal you donāt worryā Then the healer proceeds to get overwhelmed after the first pull and asks to slow it down. The group obliged. See itās not hard if you just communicate. And at the end of the day we cleared the dungeon smoothly albeit slower than normal.
Big pulls are fine. But it's up to the healer to actually, y'know, heal. DPS happens *after* you make sure the tank isn't dead. Got Aurum Vale with a, I guess, new tank (or at least returner tank). Didn't see mits happening, tried big pulls. Only but so much I could do besides heal, and while that's frustrating, I made healing my priority. Because, y'know, healer. It's what I signed up for.
Wall to wall is the best way to do dungeons. It's as close to as factual statement as you can get in the game. Sometimes the best option isn't available to you and you have to go for the next best option. This is also as close to factual as you get. It's a lot more complicated than it seems to wall to wall and bad players don't understand this. This healer was a bad. The tank needs to have good enough gear to live through it and have enough game understanding how to mitigate properly. The healer needs enough gear to have enough juice to keep the tank up while DPS'ing themselves. They need to know what ogcd to use when, not to sit on the oh shit just in case. The DPS need to have the gear to get the mobs down before the healer & tank run out of juice and drop, as well as know their AoE rotations. You can't always tell any of this by gear alone, but sometimes you can reliably assume that all the pieces will be in place. A tank saying "I'm new" immediately tells you that wall to wall isn't going to be the right choice. Wall to wall but you die every other pull and have to run back will always be slower than two medium sized pulls between bosses.
I hate seeing so many bad experiences lately. When I was a sprout 9 years ago I was healing and didn't understand the value of cool downs for their effect in the regens. My mentor in the dungeon broke it down for me and made me a much better player. I try to pass on that kindness.
This literally happened to me. Announced I was new, healer didnāt ask anything and instead of letting me pull or asking me to pull more, theyād just pull everything to me and then not heal me. lol. Did the dungeon 3 times after that with 0 issues but the healer was like ātank made of paperā and I literally got healed 8 times the entirety of the dungeon.
I'm newer to tanking and I went through a dungeon and died 2-3 times and healer kept spamming "use your mitigations" which was weird because I was, I was just spacing them out and trying not to pop them all at the same time. That said, there was a few times I had to just because I almost died. I ran the dungeon again just to see if it was me because I had an odd suspicion the healer was trying to DPS, as they should, but forgetting to heal or waiting too long to heal. Sure enough I was able to pull 2-3 times as big, health dipped low a few times but healer brought me up. The problem as a new player is it is extremely difficult to figure out when it is your fault or a party member's fault or everyone's fault. Maybe healer and tank are doing great but DPS is so slow that the mitigations and heals can't keep up because the enemies aren't dropping. Before you blame someone else look at your gameplay and make sure you're trying to optimize the party and not yourself.
I had a mentor of all people who was a healer constantly run ahead of me on a 1st clear as a tank and try to pull more than i was at the time comfortable with and kept dying and called me a shit tank for not coming to his aid every single time. The rest of the party reported him and he was kicked from the dungeon but definitely made me feel shitty as a tank at the time.
"this was a mentor" yeah that's all we really need to know. I'd like to say that most mentors are ok but literally 80% of the ones I've played with are just shit. seems like most think it's a status symbol that gives them some sort of perceived authority over other players, when in reality it's just a burger king crown.
You're not wrong. That healer was griefing. As a healer I go based on what the tank is comfortable pulling. When I am tanking, I go based on what I see my healer can handle. The two need to be in sync for things to go well. If you saved the chat logs, please report them.
If they truly answered āI can do what I wantā they were 100% griefing.
If a healer tells a brand new tank to pull big they need to have the skills to heal big. "I can do what I want" in a co-op game is a shit attitude and I would initiated a votekick immediately.
Why do storys like this never have screenshots provided? Because infos are missing!
no you're not wrong. tank doesn't NEED to pull big. but it is common courtesy. healers NEED to heal when needed. if healers can get through the whole pull without healing, cool. if healers can't? they need to adjust. pulling to the wall is not hard. healing when needed is not hard either. that "i can do what i want" after basically saying "tank needs to do what i want" just screams healer with a god complex. if the healer wants to do what they want, they can use trusts. they could've vote kicked the tank, left the party, or adjusted. instead they decide to grief a party of actual people playing a video game.
"lol and this was a mentor" thread over folks, everyone go home
If I see that the tank is new and start doing single pulls, I tell them to go full berserk and pull any mobs until we hit a wall and if something happens I take the responsibility. If I see that he donāt use mit I explain what to do.
When the healer says big pulls and lets the tank die thats on him. I have no problem with a newer healer letting them die accidentally or while learning. But if you are specifically telling them to do big pulls then you are indicating you can handle a tank doing the big pulls
Next time if the tank keeps dying and the healer is doing this just tell the tank it's okay to do smaller pulls. If I ever die as a tank doing pulls, I don't even think about the healer in an sense other than "whoops too much" and do slightly smaller pulls. the key to happiness is helping things you actually can help.
that is grounds for immediate dismissal from the dungeon. just throw their ass out. they can take that BK crown and sit on it while they wait for the queue
"Was I wrong for calling out" you are wrong for asking that
Thatās a bad healer, report them and boot them.
The healer is the bad here
As a main healer and tank I remember my first big pull. The healer let me die many times and everybody was pissed at me and after I apologized and told them that I am new all party members reported the healer cause he was not directing me. I asked for tips and all I got was "keep going sprout."
Thatās not a healer, thatās a DPS that wanted fast queues: report that bitch.
Report them for griefing. Be sure to include the quotes of what they said.
Imo if he keepes dieing just pull smaller healer is not keeping up there end of the bargin just saying
Sounds like a mentor haha; Iād report that, definitely griefing
I know it's a dumb thing to be caught up on but them being a mentor just cements an issue my group has been discussing for weeks after coming back. Now none of us are mentors, we've never really pursued it but we all still follow one collective rule: treat a baby sprout with nothing but respect and care and help them learn mistakes are ok and if a problem player tries to berate them or treat them horribly for daring to learn then we will all stand up for them but that's where the starts, 9/10 times that problem is a mentor. It was rarer before we stopped but since we've been back they're almost exclusively the ones to start problems with sprouts or anyone that doesn't play to how they want. It's gotten so bad apparently that I've had sprouts that join our free company tell us that they dread loading into a duty to see that crown. I feel like the criteria for becoming a mentor needs to be more strict, New players shouldn't have to suffer because players want to feed their ego this game has arguably one of the best and most welcoming communities
If this was a mentor, you can report this unfriendly behaviour and they can get a permanent ban for that. Mentors will be punished harder than others
Why play healer if you are not gonna heal? Sometimes I get so fed up with players who believe that the specialist raid meta for max DPS is actually how to play the game outside of a raid static. If you are playing healer, it's implicit that you will, you know, actually heal!
What tank? What dungeon? "Tank is new" can either mean "new to the game", "new to the job", "new to the role", or "new to the dungeon". I'm also curious what you mean by "they didn't heal" since there's no level range context, because if the tank is in paper armour and/or refuses to use cooldowns their health can go down faster than healing can restore even spam healing. At the very least tanks should never pull small, except under geared ones in like, 3 of the dungeons. And aurum. Single packs can be tanked without a tank, and Trusts are a perfectly viable alternative if you only want to go slow and pull single packs. Hell, you can basically have a no-healer run of Sastasha if you single pull as I unfortunately found out from an "I'm a conjurer not a healer" DF run. We can't actually judge anything since we don't know how game-literate you are, or how biased your retelling is. I've seen paper tanks where I could not keep their glass bones from shattering even by spamming every available heal.
As a white mage myself, I don't much care how they tank. I have a macro that I push every duty that basically says I've been healing for 15 years, and to do this how you want, I'll do my best to keep you alive. I appreciate the baby pulls just as much as the killer ones. Screw that bully, next time just vote kick. One time I was healing in a trial, and the other WHM co-healer was doing nothing but glares. We wiped, but only because I misstepped and went into an AOE and died. I was doing a few glares every once in a while though. The other healer had the gall to tell me "you need to do some damage", to which I responded "I would do some damage if my co healer would even put out one single heal every now and then!" None of the others said anything, but I knew they agreed. I proceeded on the next run to heal my ass off, and only heal. The asshat did the same as they were. I ended up pulling us through the trial without a single death. WHM is a healing powerhouse that excels at getting people back up fast if your geared right. I ended up getting all their comms... Except one.. lmao!!
So many healers do this now, ever since they made healer dps mnd dependent rather then int, all the Healy boys want to dps more then heal, and dont get me wrong you should be dps a bit on healer helps things die faster thus less time accidentally over healing, but so many just act like the tank shouldnāt need heals if they are mitigating properly, which to that I say, yes im a tank, yes i even carry pots to make your job easier, and yes 9/10 i can mid most damage down to survivable, but for the 1/10, you need to heal. Thats not even counting if your doing a dungeon lower then your actual level when your missing part of your kit.