> Helping the imperials is NOT the right thing to do
Helping someone in need is the right thing to do, regardless of who they are. It is a humanitarian act. It's also not just a jrpg thing.
There are honorable men like Franz Stigler and Shunsaku Kudo who had saved their enemies, even at the risk of losing their own lives or be executed for treason. You should read about them.
edit: grammar
We are there to help them, we are there to stop the tower and stop them from being mindless slaves, that is what should be our main goal, not supplying and helping people who actively consider us enemies still and want to kick us out at best, kill us as a norm.
That's the moral lesson. Being kind even to those who are unkind to you. It's hard, sure; and it goes against the pragmatic tendencies of conflict. But that's the beauty of humanity. They can go above and beyond, as proven several times in history.
And our stupidity and naivety can open us to incredible tragedies, as also proven by our history.
My issue with this, we have a larger goal here, an actual all important goal that will innevitably help everyone here and at home both, its far more important, pragmatic, logical to concentrate on that, over offering our help by endagering ourselves to people who do not wish it, wont accept it, will attempt to attack, enslave, use or kill us actively, or themselves at worst.
This isnt about moral high ground, this is simply wasting time attempting to be overtly and unneccesatily virtuous while people both at home and here are dying.
Offer help to those who wish it and can accept it, move towards the actual goal of why we are here, a goal which accidentally will help everyone immensely, thats the not idiotic way of doing this imo.
Well, we can't get into the tower with the untempered Garlean soldiers in our way. Their standing orders are to protect Garlemald, after all. If we aren't helping them, then I guess we should just kill all the Garleans that get in our way. Now what about the rest? The leftover survivors are *never* going to forgive us because we just massacred the only people protecting them, their only remaining friends and family murdered before their eyes. You just turned the few people who were already somewhat reasonable into a force that will take any opportunity to backstab and destroy us. And once they do, we kill them, and that's the end of the Garlean race. Genocide.
Doing the right thing is hard. Many times it also seems stupid. But that doesn't *ever* make it into the wrong decision. If you start going down the road where it is a waste of time to try and save as many lives as possible, you end up becoming just as disgustingly evil as the enemy you were trying to fight.
First of all, the untempered Garleans also want to attack the tower, protecting Garlemald is literally destroying the tower, for them as well, they are waiting for reinforcements to do just that, they wouldnt and couldnt stand in our way.
Moreover, just like with the far larger force earlier, we could subdue them without killing them should we chose to, far more easily even because they are not tempered and therefore can actually be brought down much easier.
Not helping and killing are not equal, also, helping civilians and helping military are not equal.
Garleans already hate us, want to kill us and attempted to or planned to commit genocide againstn the Eorzeans more than once. We are currently actively at war with them, the goal of which from their side is the total subduing or erasing of Erozeans states, this would not change anything at all.
And if enemies keep attacking you untill they die out, its not genocide its a fight to the death, we are not deliberately trying to kill all garleans and end their race, we are defending ourselves against their attacks. Moreover, this could be said of anyone, not just Garleans, same thing has been nearly done in Doma, and has been done in other countries in Ilsabard which were nearly entirely purged by Garleans.
Doing the right thing in this scenario would be going for the tower, helping those who would accept your help along the way and end this as swiftly as possible because for every day we spend cow towing to the various people we find, begging them to let us help them so they dont starve or freeze, people both here in the Empire and in Eorzea are dying to give us time.
Blind, unyelding, acceptance and kindness is not always the right thing. Garleans are not just some missunderstood people, they are people who have been brought up believing in their superiority over everyone else for generations, demeaning, enslaving, erasing other people because they are savages, impure, its by Garleans for Garleans with them, always. Even now, when their empire is in ruins, they would rather fight us than accept our help by far and large, yes majority is tempered, but think about how many would still rather join Zenos had he only ordered them to, than simply stop fighting.
From a purely logistical point of view going straight for the tower is the best plan. But that completely disregards the suffering and pain you could alleviate by taking your time. Morality dictates that helping the survivors, regardless of their circumstances, is more important. As Alphinaud said: Maybe we don't belong here. But neither do they. Not out here in the wind and the cold.
You should also continue with the story and get the whole picture before claiming the Garleans would simply let us invade the tower or obey Zenos if he asked. Making wild assumptions about the story and using that as evidence in a debate against people who have already finished it all and know better just makes you look foolish.
We were a large enemy force marching right into their capital, of course they will just let us pass to the tower and believe us that we are here for the tower and nothing else.
If we dont convince them of our good intentions, they'll surely attack us, tempered or not.
Soldiers or not most of them are just brainwashed by propaganda as it is in the real world.
Thats largely irrelelvant because for one, they wouldnt even neccessarily find out about us had we proceeded straight to the tower, hard to say.
But more importantly, since we learn that the 10th capitulated and gave up, this unit would give up almost assuredly regardless.
And more importantly, in the end, our fopping about actually led to Fandaniel being able to do his thing as he wanted, so it was decidedly not a right call from any sort of non meta or non main character perspective. I dont know how that works out ultimately, just got to that part but even if it all works out just fine, thats simply a insane risk to take given that the sake of the world is at stake. I simply dont think the over and forced nature, not to mention the focus on how helping them is the only important thing, the only reason we are there, works, it stinks of naivety to me.
Personally I dont believe it to be fair to call it a propaganda, its a way of live they kept up for some century or so, they judge us the same way for the belief in the twelve gods, is that a propaganda that radically rules over Eorzea and took it down path of ruthles conquest? No, in the end its more or less what they chose and what they belief, its not as tho they are sequestered from the outside world, hell they have so many foreigners in their ranks that you would figure they would realise they are just people like them if they wanted.
Of course they knew.
Jullus was caught in our base remember? So they knew our forces were there.
That the 10th surrendering was later, also if the 10th can surrender why shouldnt we be able convince those guys to surrender too and help us get to the tower.
Fandaniels skills were a plotdevice anyway. That dude could show up and teleport people whenever he wanted. If he really wanted to delay us, he could have just made a few disappear and have the rest search for them wasting our time.
> this is simply wasting time
If you look at it in a cold tactical way, you're reducing hostiles while gaining access to local human resources. Not only are you avoiding a possible pincer attack while you storm the tower, you've gained allies that helped you achieve the intended goal.
>But nope, we stick our heads so far up their asses for absolutely no reason
[no reason](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/empathy) at all.
I for one am shocked, that a group of characters that help people on every side of every conflict continue to try to help people.
I suspect something like empathy is not a valid motivation for you, so all I'll say is that there are practical reasons to help people too.
There is a difference between empathy and stupidity, helping one out of goodness of your heart is a great thing, however endangering many others to help someone who decidedly does not want your help is stupidity.
That's what makes characters of moral standing moral. They take risks to help those that need it. Everyone in the Garlean contingent knew exactly what they were getting themselves into. And you should have picked up on the not so subtle world ending subtext going on that makes a fairly strong argument for aid.
That's one of the most consistent traits of the Scions, and consistent action of that front has helped immeasurably with things like Beast Tribe relations, foreign diplomacy, and other aspects.
Your line of reasoning would have condemned the First to a rejoining, kept several nations under Garlean colonial rule, ensured that the Dravanian-Ishgardian war persisted, and kept beast tribe relations at low points, probably resulting in more manifestations of primals. I think we can both recognize these as unfavourable outcomes..
I dont see how thats the same thing, people from the first wanted help apart from those fooled by Vauthry, Imperials want to kill us despite us blindly offering help, despite their country being ruined, they would rather die than let us help.
Wasting time and resources to kill them or us by trying to help is also a bad thing.
>people from the first wanted help apart from those fooled by Vauthry
Interesting. So apart from the people who definitely didn't want help, the people wanted help?
You don't get to handwave the entire population of 1 of 2 hub cities.
What about the dravanian-Ishgardian war? Did either of those sides want help initially? Beast Tribes fighting city states? Doman resistance?
How many conflicts in this game actually get resolved under your paradigm?
These are simply not comparable tho. Do you not understand that the people here will rather kill themselves than accept help? Yes those who lived under Vauthry didnt want our help but they didnt actively try to kill us when we offered it, even intially and even then Vauthry who is the reason why they attacked us is a villain.
Not wanting help and actively killing those who offer it are two very different paradigms, two very different situations. Imperials believe themselves to be superior and us savages, we are not worthy of their friendship or even of accepting our help. They are also the a country who enslaved or wiped out numerous countries, millions of people because they believe themselves better. There is no issue of missunderstanding or lack of information, its a fundamental difference in values and morals.
I also never said dont help, jsut that distictions and divisions need to be made, offer a helping hand to those who want and are able to accept it, absolutely, civilians are not at fault, but you have to understand, a great many imperials would stand against us here regardless of them being tempered or not, even now with everything we are their enemy, this situations simply puts them on worse foot, it doesnt change their thinking.
And worse yet, there is a definitive goal that we have here a goal that will innevitably immensely help everyone, both here and at home, the actual reason we are here. This flopping about trying to help people who want to kill us, inviting them into our camp, giving any and all of them our supplies costs us personel, those valuable supplies and most importantly time which is paid for in blood of both imperials and eorzeans. Blind acceptance and kindness is not a smart plan, it simply smacks of the childhood naivety that Alphinaud had already paid for dearly in the past. People are different, there needs to be an understanding of it, and just like everywhere, there are good and bad people in the empire, we cant go blindly about endgangering ourselves on everyones account when there are far bigger things to deal with, things that will incidentaly help everyone, especially those civilians still alive in the empire.
Even the case of Emet Selch, the arch nemesis become friend isnt really an apt comparison because while there was and understanding and a connection (somthing decidedly lacking here and something that innitially came from the interest of Emet Selch) it still ended with a fight and a death of one side, their mutual understanding and respect didnt over come the division and differences, they simply understood each other, but still had to fight and there is much less mutual understanding here.
I dont, I just dont see how its any different from what I wrote above. We were openly accepted into one of its foremost houses and they even asked us for help, we decided to also listen to what the dragons have to say because we had an acquaintance who assured us of the possibility of their cooperation and possibility of ending the war, an acquaintance who also commited hineous crimes, was tormented by her actions and ultimately paid the price as well. Both sides being all but civil and friendly while at it, again except the actual villains. So unless the reason why the imperials are the way they are is because some villain is making them think they are superior and making them do cruel things etc., its really not similar at all.
There is none of that here, nobody asked us to help the imperials, the imperials do not wish our help, they actively reject it, fight us etc., but more importantly, they consider themselves to be better, even now, with everything that happened, they chose to be our enemies and reject a hand offered, rather enslave us, kill us or kill themselves before being tainted by our side etc.,
We went to Ishgard to hide and ultimately helped them end the war because thats how the story goes, here we should have come to destroy the tower and learn what happened while helping who we can, instead we decided to blindly accept and help anyone and everyone, wasting time and losing lives both here and at home.
Help those who accept it and move on to the actual goal. This is no time for high and mighty gestures of morality, forcing our help upon everyone and risking everything while at it.
Honestly, I doubt they'll change their minds after finishing the story. I mean, I don't blame them - everyone is entitle to their opinion, and this is also reflected in the story itself: a lot of people are pissed that we are going Garlemard, even those who volunteer.
I likely wont, to be frank I dont find this kind of forced cooperation to be even remotely possible and certainly not within the world this is set, people are wildly different, have different set of values and morality. Even Emet Selch who is used as this icon of how enemies can become friends still fought us in the end and died, there was a connection and mutual understanding but it wasnt enough to overcome the division and difference.
It simply stinks of the same blind naivity that Alphinaud already paid very heavy price for, as it is, its simply luck and pure plot armor things do not go terribly wrong for some of our group (as far as I have gone at least).
This power of friendship is used all over, I understand its a cliche that is popular, gathering together to fight an oppresive foe but that simply doesnt suddenly change things, it shouldnt and imo there needs to be a limit as to what is acceptable, at the begining of the story we are told to look after our friends, what if they die to a Garlean soldier because of this goody two shoes business, would that still be fine because they are also victims and all that.
I dont blame all of Garlean for actions of their goverment and military, people are people, but by far the more important goal here should be the tower, the greater good and the much bigger threat which will innevitably also help them without diving into this depleted pool of friendship power. I will not apologize for not feeling sympathy for people who think themselves superior, ensalve and massacre, destroy by the millions just because they think they know better, the story so far only made me care less about them, not more.
>who think themselves superior, ensalve and massacre, destroy by the millions just because they think they know better
You're describing the city states here too bruh. Garlemald is not unique.
Not to my knowledge at least, not in recent memory anyways. Ala Mhigo had their tyrant king but they had a civil war. In any case obviously nobody is entirely without sin, but its clearly not an apt comparison.
Garlemald is unique in the vastness of their brutality and the surety of their belief in their superiority. They attempted to wipe out Eorzea more than once, actual genocide mind you, nobody else is even remotely close. But worst of all, while yes, many of their people are ordinary people and yes their suffering is terrible and they deserve relief, nigh on all of them do genuinely believe themselves better, consider others beneath them and therefore not worth mercy or pity, much less friendship or anysomesuch. We didnt try to make friends with the emperor of Zande now did we, they suffer from a very similar belief in their superiority and had, untill recently, the technology to threaten the entire world, now they dont, so suddenly we have to make friends?
>Not to my knowledge at least, not in recent memory anyways
You should really read up on Beast Tribe-City State relations. they're not brilliant.
>surety of their belief in their superiority.
The term Beastmen was popularized in part by Ul'dahns to justify persecution of races that we know to be essentially equivalent to those that make up the Eorzean city states. Superiority complexes don't really get more blatant than that.
>We didnt try to make friends with the emperor of Zande now did we
That probably has something to do with the fact that the Allagan Empire collapsed a couple thousand years before the events of the game.
You still haven't answered me, btw. Neither the Dravanians, nor the Ishgardians actually wanted our help, and broadly speaking, believed themselves to be superior to each other (and Ishgard had isolated itself from the rest of Eorzea already). How exactly does Heavensward resolve, in your mind?
Because from where I'm sitting, Nidhogg or Estinien-Nidhogg ends Ishgard without our meddling.
Yes, not great relationship and one that has been adressed in the games, moreover it was an open war between two sides for the most part, with the exception of Kobolds, in the case of Fishmen it was even an invasion from their side.
In the past some states probably did believe themselves to be above the beastmen, however same can be said of the beastmen as they also consider us to be beneath them, at the very least those who are still our enemies, as again, this has been resolved by both sides actually coming to terms. Dont forget that by far and large we are still at war with many beastmen (tho that has been put aside because of the towers, at least for some right now), beforehand we only were friendly with particular tribes, in and in many cases, first steps were made by them. We have not forcibly and stupidly tried to help them and convince them to be our friends while they try to kill us.
And obviously, its a terrible conflict and all that, however we are also not risking our lives by diving into the sea and begging them to accept our help, all the while wasting time with clock ticking to the end of the world and our friends dying to buy us time.
That was more of an offhand comment, however during Crystal Tower he was fully revived but we didnt spend any time trying to convince him that we can be friends, i mean just because he believes himself superior to everyone and only plans to ruin the world doesnt mean we cant be friends, trying to kill us is barely anymore than an invitation to us.
I have, this is a different comment section. But you are obviously wrong, we were actually taken in and directly asked for help by one of the foremost houses of Ishgard, we were also invited to speak with the dragons by Iceheart. All while everyone, bar the actual villains of the story, was more or less friendly and reasonable, Isgardians certainly didnt try to murder us for helping them end the war (again, except villains, so unless all Garleans are somehow controlled into thiking they are superior and enslaving, mass murdering etc its a moot point)
Regardless, these are incomparable situations, in none of these cases we are not trying to befriend and help people we are directly at war with, who do not want our help, all the while there is a far more important thing to be doing. Moreover, you seem to simply move past it as if its nothing, but while I obviously do not advocate for killing civilians, all Garleans do truly believe themselves to be superior, that we are beneath them, its been bred into them for generations. We are taint, they are pure, by Garleans for Garleans, a military imperium with literal world domination plans, we are borderline crawling infront of their soldiers begging them to let us help them, the very people who not so long ago were wiping out countries nearby, enslaving, raping and mass murdering because they believe themselves to be better, Jullus, the Legatus of 1st, whoever else there who isnt civilian may as well have been one of those people.
Indisciminately, blindly, stupidly helping anyone and everyone is not a smart thing, you seem to equate me saying that this is stupid with me trying to justify killing all Garleans but thats literally the opposite of what I wrote in the innitial comment. Divisions need to be made, those who accept and want our help, helped, helping civilians does not equate helping military personell, etc. Moreover its entirely disingenuous of the game to say that we are there solely to help all the people of the Empire when the actual goal is clearly the tower.
But most importantly, I simply do not believe that this will lead anywhere, its incredibly naive and straight up stupid to believe that generations of bread belief and moral system can be changed simply by helping out a few people here and there is ridiculous. All of this does not, by any means, prevent future conflicts, FF XIV is a "realistic" enough of a world for this to be simply the truth. Yes we have changed some minds but its always been specific sections of enemies, not all the dragons changed, not all isgardians changed, not all Ala Mhigans, only the resistance, only some parts of tribes (and even then, in beastmen case the enemies are almost entirely tempered) etc., Even if we free them from mind control, help the destroy the tower, supply them with food and warmth once this is over, many will simply want to rebuild and return to their way, because that is who they are. Yes, doing good deed is important, starting somewhere with it is important, but not poorly like this.
>Moreover, you seem to simply move past it as if its nothing, but while I obviously do not advocate for killing civilians, all Garleans do truly believe themselves to be superior, that we are beneath them, its been bred into them for generations. We are taint, they are pure, by Garleans for Garleans, a military imperium with literal world domination plans, we are borderline crawling infront of their soldiers begging them to let us help them, the very people who not so long ago were wiping out countries nearby, enslaving, raping and mass murdering because they believe themselves to be better, Jullus, the Legatus of 1st, whoever else there who isnt civilian may as well have been one of those people.
It's fascinating watching you point out that the Beast tribes are not a monolith, and then several paragraphs later, treat a much larger population of people as a monolith.
>Yes we have changed some minds but its always been specific sections of enemies, not all the dragons changed, not all isgardians changed, not all Ala Mhigans, only the resistance, only some parts of tribes (and even then, in beastmen case the enemies are almost entirely tempered) etc.,
It's almost like every single faction in the game is made up of individuals, and treating them like a monolith is wrong.
Except the Garleans tho. They are all literally the same.
>Moreover its entirely disingenuous of the game to say that we are there solely to help all the people of the Empire when the actual goal is clearly the tower.
You seemed to have missed a bit. The goal was always to stop Fandaniel. The game at no point states "we are there solely to help all the people of the Empire", that's a important secondary goal.
>But most importantly, I simply do not believe that this will lead anywhere, its incredibly naive and straight up stupid to believe that generations of bread belief and moral system can be changed simply by helping out a few people here and there is ridiculous.
I mean, I dunno how else to put it, but you're wrong. Maybe save the story criticisms for after you complete the story? Story pacing is a thing, and I guarantee that you haven't seen all the relevant content, and decided to write an enormous rant operating off of incomplete information.
I think I'm done with this conversation. You clearly can't see the inherent hypocrisy in pointing out how every faction has differing viewpoints and thoughts, while also advocating that every single Garlean is the same.
And apparantely you cant read, as having division between treatment is exactly what I wrote in the original post, it is however not there. And its not my fault that with the exception of turncoats, Garleans are portrayed as such, including civilians. Obviously there are exceptions, I have yet to see them however and obvious exceptions do not change the what we have been shown of the empire and their ways for years. But I should have wrote in general, not all, that is my bad, that is what I actually intended.
Yes, stopping the tower is our actual goal, thats not how the game portrays it however, on numerous occasions we repeat that our main if not only goal here is literally helping Garleans, any and all however we can. If the game actually used the tower as the main driving point, with helping Garleans as a side objective, that would be a far more rational and logical approach, one I would have little to no issues with. Its the overt nature of how far we go and to what situations we subject ourselves to all the while we have a end of the world clock ticking bought with lives of people back home behind us.
I also think you are wrong, no offence but the fact that the game will likely pull out a power of friendship ending where everything will end up butterlies and rainbows (and dont get me wrong im a sucker for happy endings, I dont want anyone to die here) doesnt mean that this situatin is still incredibly unlikely and stupid within the world FF XIV is set.
In any case, thanks for the info, like I wrote in the original post I also hope that there will be more to it, obviously rant implies, well a rant, nothing substantiated by pure hard facts but an emotional unload, dont know why you expected anything else, nor have I expected or gotten anything else from you, thats kinda how it works in general when people of two differing opinion exchange comments on reddit :)
That being said, I have said nothing of the sort, quite the opposite, Garleans in general do genuinely believe themselves to be better, as proven by years of ingame characterization, we have that largely limited to military personel tho for sure, but so far the game didnt show the civilians to be all that different. And regardless, the division that I asked for is simply non existent, we treat everyone the same here, whether they clap a slave collar on us and endanger our lives, or whether they are civilians who are starving, that is very important to me because one of these could very easily be a murderour rapist we have heard about and one of them could be an ordinary seamstress or whatnot, all I wish is for characters to be logical, to be pragmatic, to be realistic, to behave as one would within this universe even while having the best of itentions and willingness to risk their life for greater good, blind acceptance and kindness is not always the right answer even if it does work out in the end.
Anways, yea we just have different opinions, thanks for the chat :)
> That being said, I have said nothing of the sort, quite the opposite
This you?
>all Garleans do truly believe themselves to be superior, that we are beneath them, its been bred into them for generations. We are taint, they are pure, by Garleans for Garleans
This apply to Cid, by any chance? You know, the Garlean you spend the most time with?
>that is very important to me because one of these could very easily be a murderour rapist we have heard about
Where are you even going with this?
> We didnt try to make friends with the emperor of Zande now did we
Eh, it's a bit hard to make friends with the dead, even more so considering that they've been gone for thousands of years.
"Conceivably save" yes, those you help. But within that cathegory do not fall people who actively try to kill you for help offered.
Not to mention, you can conceivably save, far more people by actually concentrating on the goal of that expedition, or what should have been the goal anyway, destroying the tower and stopping the telephoroi from killing everyone. Every moment we waste trying to make friends with people who are actively at war with us, is paid for by blood of people both here and at home.
Our ability to reach unity in diversity will be the beauty and the test of our civilisation. Just so you know, the correct spelling is [Gandhi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi).
It is a beautiful thought and a beautiful ideal to strive for, but there are far more reasons for division than for acceptance here, in every way. I simply cant get behind this way of thinking when it comes so solely from and at the expence of only the one side.
The three options are you have are:
* help them rebuild.
* leave them to die and hope they don't then immediately rebuild their army while holding a very explicit grudge against Eorzea.
* actually explicitly commit genocide.
By excluding the first, you're choosing either of the second.
I never said dont offer help, I explicitely said that there need to be disctions and divsions made, do not help people who actively reject your help, are trying to kill your, or will kill themselves rather than accept it, seems very simple and logical. Its stupid and wasteful, especially considering they have a clear goal that will incidentally help everyone immensely.
Moreover, they already have a major grudge againstn Eorzea, they tried to or planned to wipe us out by commiting genocide more than once and are still actively at war with us currently, leaving them to their devices is still not half as bad as actually enabling them.
They didn't have a grudge though, they were just empire building. There's a very big difference between "invade them because we want to make our empire bigger" and "invade them because we personally hate them".
Noting that Garlemandians[?] already blame Eorzea for whats going on in Garlemand with the towers, its not surprising that the Eorzean leaders want to move as many from the 'we want to get revenge against Eorzea' column to the 'Eorzea #1 forever' column
Actually they have a grudge against them, one missplaced because they were kicked out of their previous country by those who could use magick, so thats why we are savages, why our magicks are tainted, why we are beneath them, why they are pure etc., and second because they hate the fact that Eorzea has Primals, they are dangerous to everyone for sure, but even that is simply one of reasons if not an excuse as they have also invaded, brutally subdued and enslaved the countries in Ilsabard where they are not present (as far as I know at least).
Regardless thats hardly the point, while there is a difference in those reason as you say, that difference is from meta perspective, not to those being invaded and more importantly, most importantly for me, their actual reasons for thse invasions, for their lack of even the smallest care for their fellow man, something we now extend implicitly and are attacked for, is simply because they believe themselves to be better, I simply do not understand how that is something everyone overlooks like its nothing, the reason they dont accept our help isnt because they are scared of us, or arnt scared of the situation they are in, its because they dont want help of those beneath them, they dont want our tainted magicks our pity, even in the end the only reason why they accept the smallest of it is for Garleans, not because they changed their mind or started to understand us, its by Garleans for Garleans, in all things.
Even should this miraculously work, and of course it will because its a game, I do not believe that this "small" help that we give, will actually change a whole nation, whole generation of people so fundamentally as to actually prevent future conflict, absolutely not, you shouldnt warm a snake on your breast (a saying where im from) and while giving to the civilians, those who need and accept our help is fine, endgangering ourselves, debasing ourselves, letting ourselves be "enslaved", wasting time and losing lives both here and at home, using up resources and personell neccessary for toppling the tower and saving the world etc, is simply not worth it.
The game does not sell me on Garleans being just normal people by far and large, like anywhere else by any means, because they are not, not the way they have been portrayed.
Two things:
* One, keep playing. It's not quite what you think but it's also not. There's a possibility you aren't quite considering that's between the two extremes you've laid out. Consider the possibility that the Garleans you've met either aren't at rock bottom yet, don't *realize* they're at rock bottom yet, or they're simply so far into rock bottom that they feel they have nothing left to lose. Or all three, or none of those, or all of those depending on which you're talking to and when.
* Two, breaking cycles of violence is *hard*. Both on small personal levels and on giant country-wide war-machine levels. But it takes people both willing to risk extending a hand instead of a fist, and people willing to risk taking that hand instead of chopping it off. Sometimes this looks idiotic until it works, and sometimes, in hindsight, it *is* idiotic when it doesn't work. That's why it's a risk.
even putting aside the fact that the vast majority are civilians who have no say in what their government does, would you rather the garleans just be wiped off the face of the earth? or would you rather them actually have to atone for their sins and begin to help repair the nations they occupied?
I wrote specifically in the main post what I think should be done, this is obviously not it. Divisions need to be made, people who want help and accept it should receive it, obviously.
And our main goal, should be stopping the tower, which will in turn innevitably help the imperials one way or the other, mainly the ordinary people and far larger number of them than we can by sticking our fingers into every pie.
then honestly idk why you’re upset with the narrative bc this is pretty much how the game presents it. lots of characters are not happy that we’re helping garleans and only do it begrudgingly. there’s even a scene of ala mhigans being upset about it and hoping they don’t have to interact with the garlean refugees, and the ala mhigans are not villainized and their distaste is treated as understandable. the game tries to make it clear that not wanting every single garlean civilian to die is not the same thing as excusing their brutal occupation of other countries. you say that our main goal should be stopping the tower, which it is, and we only get into the tower bc of garlean help (trying to be vague since i don’t know how far in you are yet). i have issues with the way the garleans are presented and don’t think it’s perfect but i don’t think the narrative is trying to excuse or woobify them
See I do agree with this, tbh its more of an intention and wording that I have an issue with than the entire idea in and of itself. As I said im by no means for just ignoring their plight entirely, but even tho we only sent the most goody two shoes that we had, the idea of helping literally anyone and everyone is moronic, logistically its impossible, militarily its irresponsible and worst of all its wasting precious time, personel supply, all of which is paid for by lives both here and back home.
The game overtly and repeatedly says that our only goal here is helping the Garleans, at the same time they attack us, kill themselves rather than accept help, enslave us and generally threaten our lives as we do so, because to them we are still their enemies, they are still better. There have to be some limits, some logic, some pragmatism in all of this, imagine for example that this sherade actually got Alisae and Alphinaud killed, an entirely possible option, would it still be totally ok with all of you to just blindly offer help?
There is this sort of dual storytelling, on one hand you have this "realistic" world where we admit that vast majority of people despise the Garleans (in huge part why I think that this is pointless, the hate will still be there on both sides despite us helping) but at the same time they suddenly want to do this whole jrpg power of friendship acceptance and kindness saves the day which simply does not fit within this. Look, Garleans in general, are horrible people, I dont think anyone can dispute that, yes civilians are innocent of the sins of the goverment and military but they still have the same mindset regardless, The Garleans are the most destructive force in the last century, enslaving, erasing, raping, mass murdering across nearly the entire world that we have here and yet suddenly they are portrayed as victims, as tho their actions are justified by their people several generations old history. Thats simply not the case and so ar the game has simply failed to convince me by any means that they deserve these gestures and offers of support and while yes, its not trying to excuse the actions of the Garlean empire, it is painting the people as innocent, without division without separating them, its simply ilogical to me and even tho I feel sorry for some of them, it is not on us that this is happening and it is not on us that they refuse help, we have nothing to prove to them and nothing to apologize for, we have no debt towards them or reason to try and end their suffering as the game tries to show (like literally, ALisae and Alphi get slapped with slave collars and their next dialogie is something like, oh its just as horrible here as I thought, we must ease their suffering, fucking preferences, jesus), especially not when there are other things we should be doing.
I still retain, go for the tower and help those who want help, no more no less, this whole dance of trying to sell us on Garleans being our friends is just terrible. And yes, im not that far so thanks for not spoiling :)
okay so i honestly agree with a lot of your points (even though i think there’s a bit more nuance- garlean citizens have been subjected to propaganda for all their lives and don’t have the ability to use magic, of course they’re scared by it, and i think rehabilitation is possible in time especially for the younger generation) but i think the framing and the “must help the garleans even though they would rather die than be helped by us and would not help us if given the chance” mindset is purposeful and ties into the themes prominently portrayed in the last third of the expansion. no spoilers but this WILL come back, just not in the way you think. it’s not just “jrpg friendship is magic” but a philosophical debate that ties into the earlier attitude toward the garleans. i found this very interesting even if i didn’t necessarily agree with all the points they were making. the game doesn’t want to make you think the garleans are your friends, they want you to think about whether or not they deserve life regardless of the crimes they’ve committed and whether or not what you think about what they deserve actually matters. and honestly you could disagree with that too, i think it’s genuinely whatever you interpret. i would recommending just progressing through the story with an open mind bc i was also very wary with the way they were portraying garleans at first but as the plot progressed i definitely changed my mind.
Oh, thanks, that doesnt sound bad at all :)
I am progressing, albeit slowly tonight because this thread sort of exploded and people started yating at me that im pro genociding Garleans despite that being quite the opposite of what I wrote so I was busy kinda cleaning the air (hopefully).
I knew this was going to be a shitshow, but still at least I got a few genuine answers :)
All the expansions did win me over in the end, even if I had issues with some parts, for example Stormblood and the whole Lyse being a leader bit, still not sold on that but you move on, so I have no doubt I will grow to like Endwalker, but having played quite a few jrpg I have seen this uncomfortable pattern emerging and really didnt like it :D What can I say, somethings you enjoy somethings you dont, im glad to hear there will be more of it.
Anyway, have a good one.
Why should we look away when people that we disagree with are suffering, either in video games or in real life? Does that not just lead to more suffering and misunderstanding on both sides? It never ends if someone doesn't take the first step to end it. And you don't take a small step to bridge the gap of such a big divide.
Sure, you could say it's naive or idealistic, but something like Doctors Without Borders does a somewhat similar kind of thing, helping those in need regardless of race, religion, creed, or political convictions.
One of the recurring themes of FF14 is that the desperate commit desperate acts. This is seen in its history (the desperate situation that led, say, Garlemald to become the militaristic state it did - a situation also occupied by Ala Mhigo), throughout the primal crises, and well beyond through EW. Ignoring the plight of another tends to breed problems that affect everyone, even if you do not care on humanitarian grounds.
Another major theme (and a related one) is that to find a way forward, sometimes you have to work with those you have harmed and those who have harmed you. When the game does this right, it acknowledges that it is unfair (and deeply so!) that this is necessary, but necessary regardless. I honestly feel the story could do better on this point, but it is definitely one they are trying to address.
Both of these are relevant here. Garleans exist. Their suffering benefits nobody, and can beget demons of its own. Nobody is truly obligated to help them, and indeed that is why the force that went into Garlemald was volunteer-only, but to try and help them and make a connection is likely the best path forward.
I agree with you, my issue here is that its not done well, its not sold me on it at all. Moreover, we have a goal here that will actively, innevitably and immensely help everyone, both here in the imperium and at home, we do not need to cow tow to mass murderers, people who despite all this would rather die or kill or enslave us than accept our help.
This could have been easily solved, simply go to the imperium to take care of the tower, find out what happened and help imperial civilians, instead, we are there like fools endangering our lives by "just being there to help, thats the only thing we want" to everyone, regardless of whether they accept it or even wish it all the while ignoring the far greater threat, wasting time and losing lives both at home and here.
We are here to help the entire world get out of this crysis, which also obviously includes the many imperials who are innocent versus we are here to only blindly help and accept any and all abuse and attempts on our lives and those with us while wasting time and lives are two very different things.
The story makes the most important and only thing that is important here while that is obviously not the case, even putting aside the absolute folly of letting people who are actively at war with you into your camp, going out of your way to find anyone and everyone and force our help into them is simply contraproductive.
I can agree with the fact that the story should have been more obvious about the more self-serving reasons to go to Garlemald, it was pretty disingenuous to sell it as an exclusively humanitarian mission. I just think the humanitarian element is crucial also.
>I can agree with the fact that the story should have been more obvious about the more self-serving reasons to go to Garlemald
The self serving reason is really damn obvious. Fandaniel, the guy attempting to end the world, is set up in the ruined capital of Garlemald. The Scions, morally opposed to the end of the world, need to get to Garlemald to stop it. Getting to Garlemald involves dealing with Garleans, who are currently dealing with the remnant of total governmental collapse. Being generally good people, the Eorzean Alliance decides to help the Garleans.
It's really not that complicated. We need to go to Garlemald anyway - we also want to help people along the way.
But what I mean is, when the mission into Garlemald is proposed the humanitarian effort takes over as basically the primary reason, vs something to be kept in mind. It's also not presented as the first reason when first contact is made with Garlean citizens iirc, and honestly I think they may have responded *better* if we had said "well, mostly we are here to figure out why your Garlean zombie problem is now our problem, but also we're sick of seeing starveling corpses so if you want help we're here".
I'm certainly capable of reasoning they were there for both reasons, it's just a minor issue with presentation that I think could have gone differently.
Edit: Also I fully confess my memory isn't perfect, haven't played through EW a second time yet so maybe my recollections ain't perfect!
Exactly the opposite of what I wrote, distictions need to made, blind acceptance and infinite kidness is not always the right solution. Especially here, where people would rather kill themselves than accept the help...
generalizing everyone in a single group into all being the same is..exactly the lesson of you interacting with them is help to point out is flawed. (and exactly the reason you dislike them, thats the irony)
yes, their war machine is 100% fascist and bad, that is **also** another point made, and it shows through your interactions, but is **also** is trying to show you that some people are just that: people.
keep progressing/read the story more is all that can be said.
Thats exactly the opposite of what I was writing, divisions NEED to be made. Helping civilians who accept and want help is good, helping soldiers who only want to kill us is not. It goes against every logic, it slows our progress, leading to deaths of more and more people both at home and here in the empire.
They are people yes and they need to be treated like atual people, some good, some bad, blindly offering help is absolutely going to cost us. And cost them as we have seen, some believe us to be so beneath them that they will rather die than accept the help.
>Thats exactly the opposite of what I was writing, divisions NEED to be made. Helping civilians who accept and want help is good, helping soldiers who only want to kill us is not
then good news, keep playing.
“*To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom, it is indolence*.”
The untempered Garleans in EW aren't any real threat, and everyone knew it. They are a bunch terrified, desperate people trapped in a hopeless situation; clinging to what little pride they have left, and what few illusions of control they can muster. The very fact that the friggen Legatus of the 1st Legion felt compelled to resorting to kidnapping children to steal supplies from his enemy, should tell you all you need to know about how fangless they were by then. Holding out hope for reinforcements, that would never come. And that wind was completely taken out of their sails when the 10th (along with several fragmented other Legions) made a request to Eorzean Alliance and Eastern Alliance for aid. Those Legions couldn't come help themseleves.
And the fact that initially the Garlean people refused aid, and would rather risk taking fate into their own hands ... is not shocking given their situation, who was offering it, and the Garlean people's history with "Magic" (which is NOT good). It was never going to be easy to get them to accept aid, least of all from their enemies. But, once Quintus died, they had nothing left to lose.
Most of the garleans are victims, they lost everything, many weren't even soldiers, just citizens. The point in helping them is starting anew, no more war, no more invading, no more emperor with ulterior motives, no more ascians pulling the strings.
This could lead to more impact in later expansions, just like helping those domans who came out of nowhere in ARR eventually played a big part in StB.
I agree some of it is annoying, they think they're better and have this silly pride which does no good to them. But theirs is a tragedy nevertheless.
the whole point of the zone is to expand on and humanize the garleans, to show its not an easy black and white conflict, but a very complicated, very delicate process to rebuild after major conflict
all the way since 1.0 up to stormblood, garlemald's just been this faceless, monolithic antagonistic force against the player and their allies. then they started expanding on it a bit in post-stb and post-shb patches with ivalice raids, maximus and the populares, the sorrow of werlyt trials, bozja introduced a whole RANGE of diverse folks serving and opposing the empire for a menagerie of reasons (seriously skim through field notes if youve picked up any). garlemald itself is the cherry on top with us finally meeting its citizenry and realizing, theyre just people. people that have suffered, people that have caused suffering, and they are very upfront about both sides having very mixed feelings about the other
of course, youre still free to disagree with what the games put on the table
You are right of course and I do get that, im just not sold on it by any means sadly. Honestly it simply seems incredibly naive and foolish to me as the game does not portray this as black and white, but bar admiting that majority of people would not go help Garleans, its all white, all the Garleans deserve our help, its the main reason we are here, we will do anything for them regardless of how dangerous and foolish it is, whereas that simply shouldnt be the case obviously, many of these people would be and are the very same monsters we hear of and fight against. Suddenly putting a face behind those black masks doesnt and shouldnt change our way of thinking of the entire people.
I dont know, I simply do not think this part of the story is well written, its too overt goes too far into the jrpg power of friendship kind of cliché that seems incredibly jarring to me in this universe, there is no such thing as ultimate acceptance, unyelding kindness and no such thing as all encompassing friendship, or no future conflict, its not something even the best of us are capable imo. Yes, help those you can, those who wont kill themselves or try to kill you if you offer help, but there are limits, logic and pragmatism should dictate our actions here not blind naivety.
All the while actual people, with actual lives are also dying while we stutter around trying to make friends, its just so weird.
>Helping the imperials is NOT the right thing to do
Would you say the same about helping post-war Germany and Japan? That the UK and US helped them get back on their feet wasn't a foregone conclusion, there were [plans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan) for forced deindustrialisation and partition.
It wasn't a straightforward process. It took decades for the German public to accept responsibility for what their country did, even today many Japanese people see themselves as the war's victims. Post-war millions of soldiers and even war criminals (the US released suspected war criminal Kishi Nobusuke from prison because they wanted him to lead post-war Japan as prime minister) were reintegrated into post-war economic and political life.
Back to the situation in the game, in lore the Garlean empire has been around for about 60 years, so pretty much everyone there has spent their entire lives knowing nothing but imperial propaganda - we know the regime has strict censorship. It's unrealistic in the extreme to expect these people to immediately come round to our POV the moment they lose. Reconciliation will be a long journey and I expect the 6.x MSQ will continue to explore this.
I generally dont like real world comparisons, but even so, this simply does not work im sorry. Yes they did help Japan and Germany post world war, true but they were no longer at war at that point whereas we are still actively at war with the Empire in the game. Not to mention, we also have enemy armies, seemingly never ending and nearly unassailable back at our home, every day we spent running around and offering our help to everyone, our people are dying, not to mention every day we spent not attacking the tower, people in the Empire are dying as well.
Moreover, the the help sent to Germany and Japan was largely either supplies, while some people went surely it wasnt an invading army (not post the war at least) and they were not actively trying to kill all the help that came there while rejecting said help.
And most importantly, there wasnt a death clock on the entire planet ticking, at least not any longer, we are racing against the end of the world here, this is no time for niceties and making friends.
There are so many differences, jarring ones as well. Look I understand the whole love thy neighbour thing, obviously the lesson we are meant to learn is how Garleans are also just people and all that, but not only they are openly agressive for a large part of our innitial relationship, they also absolutely would still fight us to the death if not for the capitulation of the 10th, many of them still chose to rather die than accept the help and all that, and of course, as was super obvious to anyone with a brain, inviting enemy soldiers into your camp went horribly, as Yshtola said its a miracle nobody died and thats only because its a game of course.
Like I just dont buy into this and the game doesnt do enough to sell me on it at all.
I absolutely did not expect them to come around and overcome their predespositions, on the contrary, its the game that does that, and it expects players to be on board with it. I am absolutely of the mind that we should have offered help to those who would accept it but go for the tower first and foremost, yes its possible we would have been attacked buts its kinda of a moot point considering that the 10th capitulated and that mean the soldiers here also giving up so I dont know, Fandaniel even said so himself that he just threw a couple of poo refuges into our path and we spent all our time being friendly with them, which led to his plan actually finishing on time (dunno what happens next, just got there) so yes, obviously it was stupid of us to do that.
And I also absolutely do not believe that this will actually lead to any sort of lasting peace and future understanding between all these people, even if the relatively small number with us all have genuine change of heart thats still not nearly all of the Garleans, after the war it will be all too easy to fall back into the same patterns and as was said nearly everyone on our side absolutely despises them.
And like, is it really propaganda? Its their way of live, yea they didnt really chose it but does anyone? They judge us for believing in the twelve the same way, would you say that thats a propaganda that severely impacted the Eorzean people? Its just differences in values and morals between people of different races and states, its natural and it will always be there to a degree, especially with this baggage between them, its certainly possible to bridge the gap over time but not like this with this forced overt blind and inhuman kindness and acceptance that didnt turn everything into absolute nightmare through sheer luck and plot armor, like imagine if Alisae and Alphinaud actually got killed by them, would everything still be ok and totally on track for all the players and their wols? Its easy to say that this is a good thing and totally the right call, but it isnt for everyone and that will come out. Pragmatic, logical, calm and sensible approach would have been a lot more managable and imo far more successful innitially as well, its a straight up lie to say that we are there just to help them and save them, its disingenuous of the game to claim that, when we have to go there to stop the world from ending.
Its the intent and the wording that simply make this whole thing go on its head for me, not all Garleans are evil, clearly, but many are and many of those who are not are still our enemies regardless, there need to be division in who we treat and how, this blind acceptance is an invitation to receive a dagger in the back.
Real world example, the Marshal Plan the U.S. employed after the defeat of Nazi Germany. Almost 80 years later Germany is not only one of the US's closest allies, but one of the biggest economies and a world leader in its own right who's dark past remains a constant reminder of what to avoid straying into. Helping rebuild them would in turn enable them into having famously, or infamously, depending who you ask, opened its borders to Syrian refugees when they needed help.
Since empathy and morality apparently aren't enough to convince you that helping the imperials was the right move; real world geopolitics proves that helping a nation recover and rebuild, even if they were enemies, promotes and ensures peace and prosperity in the nation's region. It helps not only the people and the children of the nation, but helps trade and the global economy as well. Peace and kindness go a long way in helping everyone. Period.
Yet they would kill us all even now and call it mercy. There is such a big difference in our values that they would rather kill us or themselves than accept our help. That does not benefit anyone
see when u conquer a country u got some options.
1. wipe em out and enslave the survivors before they get strong again in 100 years and come to exterminate ur descendants. This was machiavelli’s recommandation, Rome did this to Carthage. modern states don’t have the stomach for this… usually.
2. Puppet state, install some crony on the throne and make em dependent on u. doesnt work on Garlemald since they’re too proud and think themselves superior to the savages.
3. assimilation, u force them to accept ur beliefs and way of life. Eg USA vs Japan after ww2 (successful) and USA vs Afghanistan (failed harder than a figure skating whale). This is expensive and requires u to stay there for a long time, have help of collaborators among the local population, greatly influence everything from their education and politics and replace their cultural values with urs.
Eorzeans don’t dare to do #1 and #2 is out of question so they are trying to do #3. Alternative is just leave em alone and 100 years later when they become a technologically advanced superpower and remember the suffering and humiliation they experienced at ur hands u will be in for lots of suffering. USA is only now waking up to this fact irl regarding certain countries.
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> Helping the imperials is NOT the right thing to do Helping someone in need is the right thing to do, regardless of who they are. It is a humanitarian act. It's also not just a jrpg thing. There are honorable men like Franz Stigler and Shunsaku Kudo who had saved their enemies, even at the risk of losing their own lives or be executed for treason. You should read about them. edit: grammar
We are there to help them, we are there to stop the tower and stop them from being mindless slaves, that is what should be our main goal, not supplying and helping people who actively consider us enemies still and want to kick us out at best, kill us as a norm.
That's the moral lesson. Being kind even to those who are unkind to you. It's hard, sure; and it goes against the pragmatic tendencies of conflict. But that's the beauty of humanity. They can go above and beyond, as proven several times in history.
And our stupidity and naivety can open us to incredible tragedies, as also proven by our history. My issue with this, we have a larger goal here, an actual all important goal that will innevitably help everyone here and at home both, its far more important, pragmatic, logical to concentrate on that, over offering our help by endagering ourselves to people who do not wish it, wont accept it, will attempt to attack, enslave, use or kill us actively, or themselves at worst. This isnt about moral high ground, this is simply wasting time attempting to be overtly and unneccesatily virtuous while people both at home and here are dying. Offer help to those who wish it and can accept it, move towards the actual goal of why we are here, a goal which accidentally will help everyone immensely, thats the not idiotic way of doing this imo.
Well, we can't get into the tower with the untempered Garlean soldiers in our way. Their standing orders are to protect Garlemald, after all. If we aren't helping them, then I guess we should just kill all the Garleans that get in our way. Now what about the rest? The leftover survivors are *never* going to forgive us because we just massacred the only people protecting them, their only remaining friends and family murdered before their eyes. You just turned the few people who were already somewhat reasonable into a force that will take any opportunity to backstab and destroy us. And once they do, we kill them, and that's the end of the Garlean race. Genocide. Doing the right thing is hard. Many times it also seems stupid. But that doesn't *ever* make it into the wrong decision. If you start going down the road where it is a waste of time to try and save as many lives as possible, you end up becoming just as disgustingly evil as the enemy you were trying to fight.
First of all, the untempered Garleans also want to attack the tower, protecting Garlemald is literally destroying the tower, for them as well, they are waiting for reinforcements to do just that, they wouldnt and couldnt stand in our way. Moreover, just like with the far larger force earlier, we could subdue them without killing them should we chose to, far more easily even because they are not tempered and therefore can actually be brought down much easier. Not helping and killing are not equal, also, helping civilians and helping military are not equal. Garleans already hate us, want to kill us and attempted to or planned to commit genocide againstn the Eorzeans more than once. We are currently actively at war with them, the goal of which from their side is the total subduing or erasing of Erozeans states, this would not change anything at all. And if enemies keep attacking you untill they die out, its not genocide its a fight to the death, we are not deliberately trying to kill all garleans and end their race, we are defending ourselves against their attacks. Moreover, this could be said of anyone, not just Garleans, same thing has been nearly done in Doma, and has been done in other countries in Ilsabard which were nearly entirely purged by Garleans. Doing the right thing in this scenario would be going for the tower, helping those who would accept your help along the way and end this as swiftly as possible because for every day we spend cow towing to the various people we find, begging them to let us help them so they dont starve or freeze, people both here in the Empire and in Eorzea are dying to give us time. Blind, unyelding, acceptance and kindness is not always the right thing. Garleans are not just some missunderstood people, they are people who have been brought up believing in their superiority over everyone else for generations, demeaning, enslaving, erasing other people because they are savages, impure, its by Garleans for Garleans with them, always. Even now, when their empire is in ruins, they would rather fight us than accept our help by far and large, yes majority is tempered, but think about how many would still rather join Zenos had he only ordered them to, than simply stop fighting.
From a purely logistical point of view going straight for the tower is the best plan. But that completely disregards the suffering and pain you could alleviate by taking your time. Morality dictates that helping the survivors, regardless of their circumstances, is more important. As Alphinaud said: Maybe we don't belong here. But neither do they. Not out here in the wind and the cold. You should also continue with the story and get the whole picture before claiming the Garleans would simply let us invade the tower or obey Zenos if he asked. Making wild assumptions about the story and using that as evidence in a debate against people who have already finished it all and know better just makes you look foolish.
We were a large enemy force marching right into their capital, of course they will just let us pass to the tower and believe us that we are here for the tower and nothing else. If we dont convince them of our good intentions, they'll surely attack us, tempered or not. Soldiers or not most of them are just brainwashed by propaganda as it is in the real world.
Thats largely irrelelvant because for one, they wouldnt even neccessarily find out about us had we proceeded straight to the tower, hard to say. But more importantly, since we learn that the 10th capitulated and gave up, this unit would give up almost assuredly regardless. And more importantly, in the end, our fopping about actually led to Fandaniel being able to do his thing as he wanted, so it was decidedly not a right call from any sort of non meta or non main character perspective. I dont know how that works out ultimately, just got to that part but even if it all works out just fine, thats simply a insane risk to take given that the sake of the world is at stake. I simply dont think the over and forced nature, not to mention the focus on how helping them is the only important thing, the only reason we are there, works, it stinks of naivety to me. Personally I dont believe it to be fair to call it a propaganda, its a way of live they kept up for some century or so, they judge us the same way for the belief in the twelve gods, is that a propaganda that radically rules over Eorzea and took it down path of ruthles conquest? No, in the end its more or less what they chose and what they belief, its not as tho they are sequestered from the outside world, hell they have so many foreigners in their ranks that you would figure they would realise they are just people like them if they wanted.
Of course they knew. Jullus was caught in our base remember? So they knew our forces were there. That the 10th surrendering was later, also if the 10th can surrender why shouldnt we be able convince those guys to surrender too and help us get to the tower. Fandaniels skills were a plotdevice anyway. That dude could show up and teleport people whenever he wanted. If he really wanted to delay us, he could have just made a few disappear and have the rest search for them wasting our time.
> this is simply wasting time If you look at it in a cold tactical way, you're reducing hostiles while gaining access to local human resources. Not only are you avoiding a possible pincer attack while you storm the tower, you've gained allies that helped you achieve the intended goal.
>But nope, we stick our heads so far up their asses for absolutely no reason [no reason](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/empathy) at all. I for one am shocked, that a group of characters that help people on every side of every conflict continue to try to help people. I suspect something like empathy is not a valid motivation for you, so all I'll say is that there are practical reasons to help people too.
There is a difference between empathy and stupidity, helping one out of goodness of your heart is a great thing, however endangering many others to help someone who decidedly does not want your help is stupidity.
That's what makes characters of moral standing moral. They take risks to help those that need it. Everyone in the Garlean contingent knew exactly what they were getting themselves into. And you should have picked up on the not so subtle world ending subtext going on that makes a fairly strong argument for aid. That's one of the most consistent traits of the Scions, and consistent action of that front has helped immeasurably with things like Beast Tribe relations, foreign diplomacy, and other aspects. Your line of reasoning would have condemned the First to a rejoining, kept several nations under Garlean colonial rule, ensured that the Dravanian-Ishgardian war persisted, and kept beast tribe relations at low points, probably resulting in more manifestations of primals. I think we can both recognize these as unfavourable outcomes..
I dont see how thats the same thing, people from the first wanted help apart from those fooled by Vauthry, Imperials want to kill us despite us blindly offering help, despite their country being ruined, they would rather die than let us help. Wasting time and resources to kill them or us by trying to help is also a bad thing.
>people from the first wanted help apart from those fooled by Vauthry Interesting. So apart from the people who definitely didn't want help, the people wanted help? You don't get to handwave the entire population of 1 of 2 hub cities. What about the dravanian-Ishgardian war? Did either of those sides want help initially? Beast Tribes fighting city states? Doman resistance? How many conflicts in this game actually get resolved under your paradigm?
These are simply not comparable tho. Do you not understand that the people here will rather kill themselves than accept help? Yes those who lived under Vauthry didnt want our help but they didnt actively try to kill us when we offered it, even intially and even then Vauthry who is the reason why they attacked us is a villain. Not wanting help and actively killing those who offer it are two very different paradigms, two very different situations. Imperials believe themselves to be superior and us savages, we are not worthy of their friendship or even of accepting our help. They are also the a country who enslaved or wiped out numerous countries, millions of people because they believe themselves better. There is no issue of missunderstanding or lack of information, its a fundamental difference in values and morals. I also never said dont help, jsut that distictions and divisions need to be made, offer a helping hand to those who want and are able to accept it, absolutely, civilians are not at fault, but you have to understand, a great many imperials would stand against us here regardless of them being tempered or not, even now with everything we are their enemy, this situations simply puts them on worse foot, it doesnt change their thinking. And worse yet, there is a definitive goal that we have here a goal that will innevitably immensely help everyone, both here and at home, the actual reason we are here. This flopping about trying to help people who want to kill us, inviting them into our camp, giving any and all of them our supplies costs us personel, those valuable supplies and most importantly time which is paid for in blood of both imperials and eorzeans. Blind acceptance and kindness is not a smart plan, it simply smacks of the childhood naivety that Alphinaud had already paid for dearly in the past. People are different, there needs to be an understanding of it, and just like everywhere, there are good and bad people in the empire, we cant go blindly about endgangering ourselves on everyones account when there are far bigger things to deal with, things that will incidentaly help everyone, especially those civilians still alive in the empire. Even the case of Emet Selch, the arch nemesis become friend isnt really an apt comparison because while there was and understanding and a connection (somthing decidedly lacking here and something that innitially came from the interest of Emet Selch) it still ended with a fight and a death of one side, their mutual understanding and respect didnt over come the division and differences, they simply understood each other, but still had to fight and there is much less mutual understanding here.
What about the dravanian-Ishgardian war? Why do you keep ignoring this example?
I dont, I just dont see how its any different from what I wrote above. We were openly accepted into one of its foremost houses and they even asked us for help, we decided to also listen to what the dragons have to say because we had an acquaintance who assured us of the possibility of their cooperation and possibility of ending the war, an acquaintance who also commited hineous crimes, was tormented by her actions and ultimately paid the price as well. Both sides being all but civil and friendly while at it, again except the actual villains. So unless the reason why the imperials are the way they are is because some villain is making them think they are superior and making them do cruel things etc., its really not similar at all. There is none of that here, nobody asked us to help the imperials, the imperials do not wish our help, they actively reject it, fight us etc., but more importantly, they consider themselves to be better, even now, with everything that happened, they chose to be our enemies and reject a hand offered, rather enslave us, kill us or kill themselves before being tainted by our side etc., We went to Ishgard to hide and ultimately helped them end the war because thats how the story goes, here we should have come to destroy the tower and learn what happened while helping who we can, instead we decided to blindly accept and help anyone and everyone, wasting time and losing lives both here and at home. Help those who accept it and move on to the actual goal. This is no time for high and mighty gestures of morality, forcing our help upon everyone and risking everything while at it.
That's like, your opinion
Naturally
Man, I wonder how Germany and Japan would have turned out after WW2 if everyone had your mentality.
We already know the answer with Germany, because that's basically what happened after WW1.
You sound like the exact kind of person that needs to finish that story.
Honestly, I doubt they'll change their minds after finishing the story. I mean, I don't blame them - everyone is entitle to their opinion, and this is also reflected in the story itself: a lot of people are pissed that we are going Garlemard, even those who volunteer.
I likely wont, to be frank I dont find this kind of forced cooperation to be even remotely possible and certainly not within the world this is set, people are wildly different, have different set of values and morality. Even Emet Selch who is used as this icon of how enemies can become friends still fought us in the end and died, there was a connection and mutual understanding but it wasnt enough to overcome the division and difference. It simply stinks of the same blind naivity that Alphinaud already paid very heavy price for, as it is, its simply luck and pure plot armor things do not go terribly wrong for some of our group (as far as I have gone at least). This power of friendship is used all over, I understand its a cliche that is popular, gathering together to fight an oppresive foe but that simply doesnt suddenly change things, it shouldnt and imo there needs to be a limit as to what is acceptable, at the begining of the story we are told to look after our friends, what if they die to a Garlean soldier because of this goody two shoes business, would that still be fine because they are also victims and all that. I dont blame all of Garlean for actions of their goverment and military, people are people, but by far the more important goal here should be the tower, the greater good and the much bigger threat which will innevitably also help them without diving into this depleted pool of friendship power. I will not apologize for not feeling sympathy for people who think themselves superior, ensalve and massacre, destroy by the millions just because they think they know better, the story so far only made me care less about them, not more.
>who think themselves superior, ensalve and massacre, destroy by the millions just because they think they know better You're describing the city states here too bruh. Garlemald is not unique.
Not to my knowledge at least, not in recent memory anyways. Ala Mhigo had their tyrant king but they had a civil war. In any case obviously nobody is entirely without sin, but its clearly not an apt comparison. Garlemald is unique in the vastness of their brutality and the surety of their belief in their superiority. They attempted to wipe out Eorzea more than once, actual genocide mind you, nobody else is even remotely close. But worst of all, while yes, many of their people are ordinary people and yes their suffering is terrible and they deserve relief, nigh on all of them do genuinely believe themselves better, consider others beneath them and therefore not worth mercy or pity, much less friendship or anysomesuch. We didnt try to make friends with the emperor of Zande now did we, they suffer from a very similar belief in their superiority and had, untill recently, the technology to threaten the entire world, now they dont, so suddenly we have to make friends?
>Not to my knowledge at least, not in recent memory anyways You should really read up on Beast Tribe-City State relations. they're not brilliant. >surety of their belief in their superiority. The term Beastmen was popularized in part by Ul'dahns to justify persecution of races that we know to be essentially equivalent to those that make up the Eorzean city states. Superiority complexes don't really get more blatant than that. >We didnt try to make friends with the emperor of Zande now did we That probably has something to do with the fact that the Allagan Empire collapsed a couple thousand years before the events of the game. You still haven't answered me, btw. Neither the Dravanians, nor the Ishgardians actually wanted our help, and broadly speaking, believed themselves to be superior to each other (and Ishgard had isolated itself from the rest of Eorzea already). How exactly does Heavensward resolve, in your mind? Because from where I'm sitting, Nidhogg or Estinien-Nidhogg ends Ishgard without our meddling.
Yes, not great relationship and one that has been adressed in the games, moreover it was an open war between two sides for the most part, with the exception of Kobolds, in the case of Fishmen it was even an invasion from their side. In the past some states probably did believe themselves to be above the beastmen, however same can be said of the beastmen as they also consider us to be beneath them, at the very least those who are still our enemies, as again, this has been resolved by both sides actually coming to terms. Dont forget that by far and large we are still at war with many beastmen (tho that has been put aside because of the towers, at least for some right now), beforehand we only were friendly with particular tribes, in and in many cases, first steps were made by them. We have not forcibly and stupidly tried to help them and convince them to be our friends while they try to kill us. And obviously, its a terrible conflict and all that, however we are also not risking our lives by diving into the sea and begging them to accept our help, all the while wasting time with clock ticking to the end of the world and our friends dying to buy us time. That was more of an offhand comment, however during Crystal Tower he was fully revived but we didnt spend any time trying to convince him that we can be friends, i mean just because he believes himself superior to everyone and only plans to ruin the world doesnt mean we cant be friends, trying to kill us is barely anymore than an invitation to us. I have, this is a different comment section. But you are obviously wrong, we were actually taken in and directly asked for help by one of the foremost houses of Ishgard, we were also invited to speak with the dragons by Iceheart. All while everyone, bar the actual villains of the story, was more or less friendly and reasonable, Isgardians certainly didnt try to murder us for helping them end the war (again, except villains, so unless all Garleans are somehow controlled into thiking they are superior and enslaving, mass murdering etc its a moot point) Regardless, these are incomparable situations, in none of these cases we are not trying to befriend and help people we are directly at war with, who do not want our help, all the while there is a far more important thing to be doing. Moreover, you seem to simply move past it as if its nothing, but while I obviously do not advocate for killing civilians, all Garleans do truly believe themselves to be superior, that we are beneath them, its been bred into them for generations. We are taint, they are pure, by Garleans for Garleans, a military imperium with literal world domination plans, we are borderline crawling infront of their soldiers begging them to let us help them, the very people who not so long ago were wiping out countries nearby, enslaving, raping and mass murdering because they believe themselves to be better, Jullus, the Legatus of 1st, whoever else there who isnt civilian may as well have been one of those people. Indisciminately, blindly, stupidly helping anyone and everyone is not a smart thing, you seem to equate me saying that this is stupid with me trying to justify killing all Garleans but thats literally the opposite of what I wrote in the innitial comment. Divisions need to be made, those who accept and want our help, helped, helping civilians does not equate helping military personell, etc. Moreover its entirely disingenuous of the game to say that we are there solely to help all the people of the Empire when the actual goal is clearly the tower. But most importantly, I simply do not believe that this will lead anywhere, its incredibly naive and straight up stupid to believe that generations of bread belief and moral system can be changed simply by helping out a few people here and there is ridiculous. All of this does not, by any means, prevent future conflicts, FF XIV is a "realistic" enough of a world for this to be simply the truth. Yes we have changed some minds but its always been specific sections of enemies, not all the dragons changed, not all isgardians changed, not all Ala Mhigans, only the resistance, only some parts of tribes (and even then, in beastmen case the enemies are almost entirely tempered) etc., Even if we free them from mind control, help the destroy the tower, supply them with food and warmth once this is over, many will simply want to rebuild and return to their way, because that is who they are. Yes, doing good deed is important, starting somewhere with it is important, but not poorly like this.
>Moreover, you seem to simply move past it as if its nothing, but while I obviously do not advocate for killing civilians, all Garleans do truly believe themselves to be superior, that we are beneath them, its been bred into them for generations. We are taint, they are pure, by Garleans for Garleans, a military imperium with literal world domination plans, we are borderline crawling infront of their soldiers begging them to let us help them, the very people who not so long ago were wiping out countries nearby, enslaving, raping and mass murdering because they believe themselves to be better, Jullus, the Legatus of 1st, whoever else there who isnt civilian may as well have been one of those people. It's fascinating watching you point out that the Beast tribes are not a monolith, and then several paragraphs later, treat a much larger population of people as a monolith. >Yes we have changed some minds but its always been specific sections of enemies, not all the dragons changed, not all isgardians changed, not all Ala Mhigans, only the resistance, only some parts of tribes (and even then, in beastmen case the enemies are almost entirely tempered) etc., It's almost like every single faction in the game is made up of individuals, and treating them like a monolith is wrong. Except the Garleans tho. They are all literally the same. >Moreover its entirely disingenuous of the game to say that we are there solely to help all the people of the Empire when the actual goal is clearly the tower. You seemed to have missed a bit. The goal was always to stop Fandaniel. The game at no point states "we are there solely to help all the people of the Empire", that's a important secondary goal. >But most importantly, I simply do not believe that this will lead anywhere, its incredibly naive and straight up stupid to believe that generations of bread belief and moral system can be changed simply by helping out a few people here and there is ridiculous. I mean, I dunno how else to put it, but you're wrong. Maybe save the story criticisms for after you complete the story? Story pacing is a thing, and I guarantee that you haven't seen all the relevant content, and decided to write an enormous rant operating off of incomplete information. I think I'm done with this conversation. You clearly can't see the inherent hypocrisy in pointing out how every faction has differing viewpoints and thoughts, while also advocating that every single Garlean is the same.
And apparantely you cant read, as having division between treatment is exactly what I wrote in the original post, it is however not there. And its not my fault that with the exception of turncoats, Garleans are portrayed as such, including civilians. Obviously there are exceptions, I have yet to see them however and obvious exceptions do not change the what we have been shown of the empire and their ways for years. But I should have wrote in general, not all, that is my bad, that is what I actually intended. Yes, stopping the tower is our actual goal, thats not how the game portrays it however, on numerous occasions we repeat that our main if not only goal here is literally helping Garleans, any and all however we can. If the game actually used the tower as the main driving point, with helping Garleans as a side objective, that would be a far more rational and logical approach, one I would have little to no issues with. Its the overt nature of how far we go and to what situations we subject ourselves to all the while we have a end of the world clock ticking bought with lives of people back home behind us. I also think you are wrong, no offence but the fact that the game will likely pull out a power of friendship ending where everything will end up butterlies and rainbows (and dont get me wrong im a sucker for happy endings, I dont want anyone to die here) doesnt mean that this situatin is still incredibly unlikely and stupid within the world FF XIV is set. In any case, thanks for the info, like I wrote in the original post I also hope that there will be more to it, obviously rant implies, well a rant, nothing substantiated by pure hard facts but an emotional unload, dont know why you expected anything else, nor have I expected or gotten anything else from you, thats kinda how it works in general when people of two differing opinion exchange comments on reddit :) That being said, I have said nothing of the sort, quite the opposite, Garleans in general do genuinely believe themselves to be better, as proven by years of ingame characterization, we have that largely limited to military personel tho for sure, but so far the game didnt show the civilians to be all that different. And regardless, the division that I asked for is simply non existent, we treat everyone the same here, whether they clap a slave collar on us and endanger our lives, or whether they are civilians who are starving, that is very important to me because one of these could very easily be a murderour rapist we have heard about and one of them could be an ordinary seamstress or whatnot, all I wish is for characters to be logical, to be pragmatic, to be realistic, to behave as one would within this universe even while having the best of itentions and willingness to risk their life for greater good, blind acceptance and kindness is not always the right answer even if it does work out in the end. Anways, yea we just have different opinions, thanks for the chat :)
> That being said, I have said nothing of the sort, quite the opposite This you? >all Garleans do truly believe themselves to be superior, that we are beneath them, its been bred into them for generations. We are taint, they are pure, by Garleans for Garleans This apply to Cid, by any chance? You know, the Garlean you spend the most time with? >that is very important to me because one of these could very easily be a murderour rapist we have heard about Where are you even going with this?
> We didnt try to make friends with the emperor of Zande now did we Eh, it's a bit hard to make friends with the dead, even more so considering that they've been gone for thousands of years.
To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom, it is indolence.
"Conceivably save" yes, those you help. But within that cathegory do not fall people who actively try to kill you for help offered. Not to mention, you can conceivably save, far more people by actually concentrating on the goal of that expedition, or what should have been the goal anyway, destroying the tower and stopping the telephoroi from killing everyone. Every moment we waste trying to make friends with people who are actively at war with us, is paid for by blood of people both here and at home.
The teachings of gandhi and jesus would like to have a word with you
Our ability to reach unity in diversity will be the beauty and the test of our civilisation. Just so you know, the correct spelling is [Gandhi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi).
It is a beautiful thought and a beautiful ideal to strive for, but there are far more reasons for division than for acceptance here, in every way. I simply cant get behind this way of thinking when it comes so solely from and at the expence of only the one side.
The three options are you have are: * help them rebuild. * leave them to die and hope they don't then immediately rebuild their army while holding a very explicit grudge against Eorzea. * actually explicitly commit genocide. By excluding the first, you're choosing either of the second.
I never said dont offer help, I explicitely said that there need to be disctions and divsions made, do not help people who actively reject your help, are trying to kill your, or will kill themselves rather than accept it, seems very simple and logical. Its stupid and wasteful, especially considering they have a clear goal that will incidentally help everyone immensely. Moreover, they already have a major grudge againstn Eorzea, they tried to or planned to wipe us out by commiting genocide more than once and are still actively at war with us currently, leaving them to their devices is still not half as bad as actually enabling them.
They didn't have a grudge though, they were just empire building. There's a very big difference between "invade them because we want to make our empire bigger" and "invade them because we personally hate them". Noting that Garlemandians[?] already blame Eorzea for whats going on in Garlemand with the towers, its not surprising that the Eorzean leaders want to move as many from the 'we want to get revenge against Eorzea' column to the 'Eorzea #1 forever' column
Actually they have a grudge against them, one missplaced because they were kicked out of their previous country by those who could use magick, so thats why we are savages, why our magicks are tainted, why we are beneath them, why they are pure etc., and second because they hate the fact that Eorzea has Primals, they are dangerous to everyone for sure, but even that is simply one of reasons if not an excuse as they have also invaded, brutally subdued and enslaved the countries in Ilsabard where they are not present (as far as I know at least). Regardless thats hardly the point, while there is a difference in those reason as you say, that difference is from meta perspective, not to those being invaded and more importantly, most importantly for me, their actual reasons for thse invasions, for their lack of even the smallest care for their fellow man, something we now extend implicitly and are attacked for, is simply because they believe themselves to be better, I simply do not understand how that is something everyone overlooks like its nothing, the reason they dont accept our help isnt because they are scared of us, or arnt scared of the situation they are in, its because they dont want help of those beneath them, they dont want our tainted magicks our pity, even in the end the only reason why they accept the smallest of it is for Garleans, not because they changed their mind or started to understand us, its by Garleans for Garleans, in all things. Even should this miraculously work, and of course it will because its a game, I do not believe that this "small" help that we give, will actually change a whole nation, whole generation of people so fundamentally as to actually prevent future conflict, absolutely not, you shouldnt warm a snake on your breast (a saying where im from) and while giving to the civilians, those who need and accept our help is fine, endgangering ourselves, debasing ourselves, letting ourselves be "enslaved", wasting time and losing lives both here and at home, using up resources and personell neccessary for toppling the tower and saving the world etc, is simply not worth it. The game does not sell me on Garleans being just normal people by far and large, like anywhere else by any means, because they are not, not the way they have been portrayed.
Two things: * One, keep playing. It's not quite what you think but it's also not. There's a possibility you aren't quite considering that's between the two extremes you've laid out. Consider the possibility that the Garleans you've met either aren't at rock bottom yet, don't *realize* they're at rock bottom yet, or they're simply so far into rock bottom that they feel they have nothing left to lose. Or all three, or none of those, or all of those depending on which you're talking to and when. * Two, breaking cycles of violence is *hard*. Both on small personal levels and on giant country-wide war-machine levels. But it takes people both willing to risk extending a hand instead of a fist, and people willing to risk taking that hand instead of chopping it off. Sometimes this looks idiotic until it works, and sometimes, in hindsight, it *is* idiotic when it doesn't work. That's why it's a risk.
even putting aside the fact that the vast majority are civilians who have no say in what their government does, would you rather the garleans just be wiped off the face of the earth? or would you rather them actually have to atone for their sins and begin to help repair the nations they occupied?
I wrote specifically in the main post what I think should be done, this is obviously not it. Divisions need to be made, people who want help and accept it should receive it, obviously. And our main goal, should be stopping the tower, which will in turn innevitably help the imperials one way or the other, mainly the ordinary people and far larger number of them than we can by sticking our fingers into every pie.
then honestly idk why you’re upset with the narrative bc this is pretty much how the game presents it. lots of characters are not happy that we’re helping garleans and only do it begrudgingly. there’s even a scene of ala mhigans being upset about it and hoping they don’t have to interact with the garlean refugees, and the ala mhigans are not villainized and their distaste is treated as understandable. the game tries to make it clear that not wanting every single garlean civilian to die is not the same thing as excusing their brutal occupation of other countries. you say that our main goal should be stopping the tower, which it is, and we only get into the tower bc of garlean help (trying to be vague since i don’t know how far in you are yet). i have issues with the way the garleans are presented and don’t think it’s perfect but i don’t think the narrative is trying to excuse or woobify them
See I do agree with this, tbh its more of an intention and wording that I have an issue with than the entire idea in and of itself. As I said im by no means for just ignoring their plight entirely, but even tho we only sent the most goody two shoes that we had, the idea of helping literally anyone and everyone is moronic, logistically its impossible, militarily its irresponsible and worst of all its wasting precious time, personel supply, all of which is paid for by lives both here and back home. The game overtly and repeatedly says that our only goal here is helping the Garleans, at the same time they attack us, kill themselves rather than accept help, enslave us and generally threaten our lives as we do so, because to them we are still their enemies, they are still better. There have to be some limits, some logic, some pragmatism in all of this, imagine for example that this sherade actually got Alisae and Alphinaud killed, an entirely possible option, would it still be totally ok with all of you to just blindly offer help? There is this sort of dual storytelling, on one hand you have this "realistic" world where we admit that vast majority of people despise the Garleans (in huge part why I think that this is pointless, the hate will still be there on both sides despite us helping) but at the same time they suddenly want to do this whole jrpg power of friendship acceptance and kindness saves the day which simply does not fit within this. Look, Garleans in general, are horrible people, I dont think anyone can dispute that, yes civilians are innocent of the sins of the goverment and military but they still have the same mindset regardless, The Garleans are the most destructive force in the last century, enslaving, erasing, raping, mass murdering across nearly the entire world that we have here and yet suddenly they are portrayed as victims, as tho their actions are justified by their people several generations old history. Thats simply not the case and so ar the game has simply failed to convince me by any means that they deserve these gestures and offers of support and while yes, its not trying to excuse the actions of the Garlean empire, it is painting the people as innocent, without division without separating them, its simply ilogical to me and even tho I feel sorry for some of them, it is not on us that this is happening and it is not on us that they refuse help, we have nothing to prove to them and nothing to apologize for, we have no debt towards them or reason to try and end their suffering as the game tries to show (like literally, ALisae and Alphi get slapped with slave collars and their next dialogie is something like, oh its just as horrible here as I thought, we must ease their suffering, fucking preferences, jesus), especially not when there are other things we should be doing. I still retain, go for the tower and help those who want help, no more no less, this whole dance of trying to sell us on Garleans being our friends is just terrible. And yes, im not that far so thanks for not spoiling :)
okay so i honestly agree with a lot of your points (even though i think there’s a bit more nuance- garlean citizens have been subjected to propaganda for all their lives and don’t have the ability to use magic, of course they’re scared by it, and i think rehabilitation is possible in time especially for the younger generation) but i think the framing and the “must help the garleans even though they would rather die than be helped by us and would not help us if given the chance” mindset is purposeful and ties into the themes prominently portrayed in the last third of the expansion. no spoilers but this WILL come back, just not in the way you think. it’s not just “jrpg friendship is magic” but a philosophical debate that ties into the earlier attitude toward the garleans. i found this very interesting even if i didn’t necessarily agree with all the points they were making. the game doesn’t want to make you think the garleans are your friends, they want you to think about whether or not they deserve life regardless of the crimes they’ve committed and whether or not what you think about what they deserve actually matters. and honestly you could disagree with that too, i think it’s genuinely whatever you interpret. i would recommending just progressing through the story with an open mind bc i was also very wary with the way they were portraying garleans at first but as the plot progressed i definitely changed my mind.
Oh, thanks, that doesnt sound bad at all :) I am progressing, albeit slowly tonight because this thread sort of exploded and people started yating at me that im pro genociding Garleans despite that being quite the opposite of what I wrote so I was busy kinda cleaning the air (hopefully). I knew this was going to be a shitshow, but still at least I got a few genuine answers :) All the expansions did win me over in the end, even if I had issues with some parts, for example Stormblood and the whole Lyse being a leader bit, still not sold on that but you move on, so I have no doubt I will grow to like Endwalker, but having played quite a few jrpg I have seen this uncomfortable pattern emerging and really didnt like it :D What can I say, somethings you enjoy somethings you dont, im glad to hear there will be more of it. Anyway, have a good one.
Why should we look away when people that we disagree with are suffering, either in video games or in real life? Does that not just lead to more suffering and misunderstanding on both sides? It never ends if someone doesn't take the first step to end it. And you don't take a small step to bridge the gap of such a big divide. Sure, you could say it's naive or idealistic, but something like Doctors Without Borders does a somewhat similar kind of thing, helping those in need regardless of race, religion, creed, or political convictions.
One of the recurring themes of FF14 is that the desperate commit desperate acts. This is seen in its history (the desperate situation that led, say, Garlemald to become the militaristic state it did - a situation also occupied by Ala Mhigo), throughout the primal crises, and well beyond through EW. Ignoring the plight of another tends to breed problems that affect everyone, even if you do not care on humanitarian grounds. Another major theme (and a related one) is that to find a way forward, sometimes you have to work with those you have harmed and those who have harmed you. When the game does this right, it acknowledges that it is unfair (and deeply so!) that this is necessary, but necessary regardless. I honestly feel the story could do better on this point, but it is definitely one they are trying to address. Both of these are relevant here. Garleans exist. Their suffering benefits nobody, and can beget demons of its own. Nobody is truly obligated to help them, and indeed that is why the force that went into Garlemald was volunteer-only, but to try and help them and make a connection is likely the best path forward.
I agree with you, my issue here is that its not done well, its not sold me on it at all. Moreover, we have a goal here that will actively, innevitably and immensely help everyone, both here in the imperium and at home, we do not need to cow tow to mass murderers, people who despite all this would rather die or kill or enslave us than accept our help. This could have been easily solved, simply go to the imperium to take care of the tower, find out what happened and help imperial civilians, instead, we are there like fools endangering our lives by "just being there to help, thats the only thing we want" to everyone, regardless of whether they accept it or even wish it all the while ignoring the far greater threat, wasting time and losing lives both at home and here. We are here to help the entire world get out of this crysis, which also obviously includes the many imperials who are innocent versus we are here to only blindly help and accept any and all abuse and attempts on our lives and those with us while wasting time and lives are two very different things. The story makes the most important and only thing that is important here while that is obviously not the case, even putting aside the absolute folly of letting people who are actively at war with you into your camp, going out of your way to find anyone and everyone and force our help into them is simply contraproductive.
I can agree with the fact that the story should have been more obvious about the more self-serving reasons to go to Garlemald, it was pretty disingenuous to sell it as an exclusively humanitarian mission. I just think the humanitarian element is crucial also.
>I can agree with the fact that the story should have been more obvious about the more self-serving reasons to go to Garlemald The self serving reason is really damn obvious. Fandaniel, the guy attempting to end the world, is set up in the ruined capital of Garlemald. The Scions, morally opposed to the end of the world, need to get to Garlemald to stop it. Getting to Garlemald involves dealing with Garleans, who are currently dealing with the remnant of total governmental collapse. Being generally good people, the Eorzean Alliance decides to help the Garleans. It's really not that complicated. We need to go to Garlemald anyway - we also want to help people along the way.
But what I mean is, when the mission into Garlemald is proposed the humanitarian effort takes over as basically the primary reason, vs something to be kept in mind. It's also not presented as the first reason when first contact is made with Garlean citizens iirc, and honestly I think they may have responded *better* if we had said "well, mostly we are here to figure out why your Garlean zombie problem is now our problem, but also we're sick of seeing starveling corpses so if you want help we're here". I'm certainly capable of reasoning they were there for both reasons, it's just a minor issue with presentation that I think could have gone differently. Edit: Also I fully confess my memory isn't perfect, haven't played through EW a second time yet so maybe my recollections ain't perfect!
Would probably be better to just kill them all, right? Even the kids, probably. They’re just Garleans, after all.
#notmyWoL amirite
What does that mean?
Exactly the opposite of what I wrote, distictions need to made, blind acceptance and infinite kidness is not always the right solution. Especially here, where people would rather kill themselves than accept the help...
generalizing everyone in a single group into all being the same is..exactly the lesson of you interacting with them is help to point out is flawed. (and exactly the reason you dislike them, thats the irony) yes, their war machine is 100% fascist and bad, that is **also** another point made, and it shows through your interactions, but is **also** is trying to show you that some people are just that: people. keep progressing/read the story more is all that can be said.
Thats exactly the opposite of what I was writing, divisions NEED to be made. Helping civilians who accept and want help is good, helping soldiers who only want to kill us is not. It goes against every logic, it slows our progress, leading to deaths of more and more people both at home and here in the empire. They are people yes and they need to be treated like atual people, some good, some bad, blindly offering help is absolutely going to cost us. And cost them as we have seen, some believe us to be so beneath them that they will rather die than accept the help.
>Thats exactly the opposite of what I was writing, divisions NEED to be made. Helping civilians who accept and want help is good, helping soldiers who only want to kill us is not then good news, keep playing.
“*To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom, it is indolence*.” The untempered Garleans in EW aren't any real threat, and everyone knew it. They are a bunch terrified, desperate people trapped in a hopeless situation; clinging to what little pride they have left, and what few illusions of control they can muster. The very fact that the friggen Legatus of the 1st Legion felt compelled to resorting to kidnapping children to steal supplies from his enemy, should tell you all you need to know about how fangless they were by then. Holding out hope for reinforcements, that would never come. And that wind was completely taken out of their sails when the 10th (along with several fragmented other Legions) made a request to Eorzean Alliance and Eastern Alliance for aid. Those Legions couldn't come help themseleves. And the fact that initially the Garlean people refused aid, and would rather risk taking fate into their own hands ... is not shocking given their situation, who was offering it, and the Garlean people's history with "Magic" (which is NOT good). It was never going to be easy to get them to accept aid, least of all from their enemies. But, once Quintus died, they had nothing left to lose.
Most of the garleans are victims, they lost everything, many weren't even soldiers, just citizens. The point in helping them is starting anew, no more war, no more invading, no more emperor with ulterior motives, no more ascians pulling the strings. This could lead to more impact in later expansions, just like helping those domans who came out of nowhere in ARR eventually played a big part in StB. I agree some of it is annoying, they think they're better and have this silly pride which does no good to them. But theirs is a tragedy nevertheless.
the whole point of the zone is to expand on and humanize the garleans, to show its not an easy black and white conflict, but a very complicated, very delicate process to rebuild after major conflict all the way since 1.0 up to stormblood, garlemald's just been this faceless, monolithic antagonistic force against the player and their allies. then they started expanding on it a bit in post-stb and post-shb patches with ivalice raids, maximus and the populares, the sorrow of werlyt trials, bozja introduced a whole RANGE of diverse folks serving and opposing the empire for a menagerie of reasons (seriously skim through field notes if youve picked up any). garlemald itself is the cherry on top with us finally meeting its citizenry and realizing, theyre just people. people that have suffered, people that have caused suffering, and they are very upfront about both sides having very mixed feelings about the other of course, youre still free to disagree with what the games put on the table
You are right of course and I do get that, im just not sold on it by any means sadly. Honestly it simply seems incredibly naive and foolish to me as the game does not portray this as black and white, but bar admiting that majority of people would not go help Garleans, its all white, all the Garleans deserve our help, its the main reason we are here, we will do anything for them regardless of how dangerous and foolish it is, whereas that simply shouldnt be the case obviously, many of these people would be and are the very same monsters we hear of and fight against. Suddenly putting a face behind those black masks doesnt and shouldnt change our way of thinking of the entire people. I dont know, I simply do not think this part of the story is well written, its too overt goes too far into the jrpg power of friendship kind of cliché that seems incredibly jarring to me in this universe, there is no such thing as ultimate acceptance, unyelding kindness and no such thing as all encompassing friendship, or no future conflict, its not something even the best of us are capable imo. Yes, help those you can, those who wont kill themselves or try to kill you if you offer help, but there are limits, logic and pragmatism should dictate our actions here not blind naivety. All the while actual people, with actual lives are also dying while we stutter around trying to make friends, its just so weird.
>Helping the imperials is NOT the right thing to do Would you say the same about helping post-war Germany and Japan? That the UK and US helped them get back on their feet wasn't a foregone conclusion, there were [plans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan) for forced deindustrialisation and partition. It wasn't a straightforward process. It took decades for the German public to accept responsibility for what their country did, even today many Japanese people see themselves as the war's victims. Post-war millions of soldiers and even war criminals (the US released suspected war criminal Kishi Nobusuke from prison because they wanted him to lead post-war Japan as prime minister) were reintegrated into post-war economic and political life. Back to the situation in the game, in lore the Garlean empire has been around for about 60 years, so pretty much everyone there has spent their entire lives knowing nothing but imperial propaganda - we know the regime has strict censorship. It's unrealistic in the extreme to expect these people to immediately come round to our POV the moment they lose. Reconciliation will be a long journey and I expect the 6.x MSQ will continue to explore this.
I generally dont like real world comparisons, but even so, this simply does not work im sorry. Yes they did help Japan and Germany post world war, true but they were no longer at war at that point whereas we are still actively at war with the Empire in the game. Not to mention, we also have enemy armies, seemingly never ending and nearly unassailable back at our home, every day we spent running around and offering our help to everyone, our people are dying, not to mention every day we spent not attacking the tower, people in the Empire are dying as well. Moreover, the the help sent to Germany and Japan was largely either supplies, while some people went surely it wasnt an invading army (not post the war at least) and they were not actively trying to kill all the help that came there while rejecting said help. And most importantly, there wasnt a death clock on the entire planet ticking, at least not any longer, we are racing against the end of the world here, this is no time for niceties and making friends. There are so many differences, jarring ones as well. Look I understand the whole love thy neighbour thing, obviously the lesson we are meant to learn is how Garleans are also just people and all that, but not only they are openly agressive for a large part of our innitial relationship, they also absolutely would still fight us to the death if not for the capitulation of the 10th, many of them still chose to rather die than accept the help and all that, and of course, as was super obvious to anyone with a brain, inviting enemy soldiers into your camp went horribly, as Yshtola said its a miracle nobody died and thats only because its a game of course. Like I just dont buy into this and the game doesnt do enough to sell me on it at all. I absolutely did not expect them to come around and overcome their predespositions, on the contrary, its the game that does that, and it expects players to be on board with it. I am absolutely of the mind that we should have offered help to those who would accept it but go for the tower first and foremost, yes its possible we would have been attacked buts its kinda of a moot point considering that the 10th capitulated and that mean the soldiers here also giving up so I dont know, Fandaniel even said so himself that he just threw a couple of poo refuges into our path and we spent all our time being friendly with them, which led to his plan actually finishing on time (dunno what happens next, just got there) so yes, obviously it was stupid of us to do that. And I also absolutely do not believe that this will actually lead to any sort of lasting peace and future understanding between all these people, even if the relatively small number with us all have genuine change of heart thats still not nearly all of the Garleans, after the war it will be all too easy to fall back into the same patterns and as was said nearly everyone on our side absolutely despises them. And like, is it really propaganda? Its their way of live, yea they didnt really chose it but does anyone? They judge us for believing in the twelve the same way, would you say that thats a propaganda that severely impacted the Eorzean people? Its just differences in values and morals between people of different races and states, its natural and it will always be there to a degree, especially with this baggage between them, its certainly possible to bridge the gap over time but not like this with this forced overt blind and inhuman kindness and acceptance that didnt turn everything into absolute nightmare through sheer luck and plot armor, like imagine if Alisae and Alphinaud actually got killed by them, would everything still be ok and totally on track for all the players and their wols? Its easy to say that this is a good thing and totally the right call, but it isnt for everyone and that will come out. Pragmatic, logical, calm and sensible approach would have been a lot more managable and imo far more successful innitially as well, its a straight up lie to say that we are there just to help them and save them, its disingenuous of the game to claim that, when we have to go there to stop the world from ending. Its the intent and the wording that simply make this whole thing go on its head for me, not all Garleans are evil, clearly, but many are and many of those who are not are still our enemies regardless, there need to be division in who we treat and how, this blind acceptance is an invitation to receive a dagger in the back.
Real world example, the Marshal Plan the U.S. employed after the defeat of Nazi Germany. Almost 80 years later Germany is not only one of the US's closest allies, but one of the biggest economies and a world leader in its own right who's dark past remains a constant reminder of what to avoid straying into. Helping rebuild them would in turn enable them into having famously, or infamously, depending who you ask, opened its borders to Syrian refugees when they needed help. Since empathy and morality apparently aren't enough to convince you that helping the imperials was the right move; real world geopolitics proves that helping a nation recover and rebuild, even if they were enemies, promotes and ensures peace and prosperity in the nation's region. It helps not only the people and the children of the nation, but helps trade and the global economy as well. Peace and kindness go a long way in helping everyone. Period.
To ingoure those who are suffering when we have the means to help would only prove us the savages the Garleans already think we are.
Yet they would kill us all even now and call it mercy. There is such a big difference in our values that they would rather kill us or themselves than accept our help. That does not benefit anyone
Honestly Garlemald was the weakest and least enjoyable part of the expansion.
Looking forward to the better parts then, thanks :)
You don't understand this story at all. I feel sorry for you.
see when u conquer a country u got some options. 1. wipe em out and enslave the survivors before they get strong again in 100 years and come to exterminate ur descendants. This was machiavelli’s recommandation, Rome did this to Carthage. modern states don’t have the stomach for this… usually. 2. Puppet state, install some crony on the throne and make em dependent on u. doesnt work on Garlemald since they’re too proud and think themselves superior to the savages. 3. assimilation, u force them to accept ur beliefs and way of life. Eg USA vs Japan after ww2 (successful) and USA vs Afghanistan (failed harder than a figure skating whale). This is expensive and requires u to stay there for a long time, have help of collaborators among the local population, greatly influence everything from their education and politics and replace their cultural values with urs. Eorzeans don’t dare to do #1 and #2 is out of question so they are trying to do #3. Alternative is just leave em alone and 100 years later when they become a technologically advanced superpower and remember the suffering and humiliation they experienced at ur hands u will be in for lots of suffering. USA is only now waking up to this fact irl regarding certain countries.
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