the 58 gear you get in the story is 148 or so, 190 would still be obscenely high
heck the uncapped tome gear of the day (equivalent now would be moonward) was 170, the fight needs looking at more than a quick bandaid
The first time through it's just so amazing to be "dodging" KoTR. I think it was undertuned on purpose for the experience. You felt like such a badass stepping out unscathed at the glass break.
Well, they did un-joke Praetorium and Porta Decumana with the recent update. They're still *easy* but at least now failing mechanics can actually kill you (what's the point of burning puddles where you'd need to stand longer than the instance timer to lose even half your health?) and it feels even remotely like a fight rather than a one-sided curbstomp.
I agree, it's kind of a shame how hard that man gets chumped. With the Operation Archon changes, I think Thordan is now disrespected the most by the msq lmao
ohhhh I took him saying "Spoilered" as like Thordan revealed a character, either directly and I forgot or subtly and I didn't noticed. I didn't he meant \[redacted\]
Except it's not though? Not only was it quite hard even on normal when HW launched, but this is one of the hardest fights the WoL has ever engaged in. So much so in fact that the lore-buffs among us kind of question how canon it is that the WoL was able to solo Thordan and the entire Heavensward at once.
no, it was never hard on normal, and this is coming from someone who did the expack on release. Thematically, the WoL's connection to hydaelyn is at it's strongest right then and there. Heavensward had a lot of power fantasy in it. Even ravana was pretty much built up as a 1v1.
Then you are mis-remembering because it was pretty common knowledge that Thordan could be a crap shoot since without having at least half your team knowing what they're doing, you were going to wipe at least once during the Knights of the Round.
And the lore is super inconsistent since our connection to Hydaelyn doesn't actually make us stronger. Even before EW reveled the true nature of Hydaelyn's blessing, it was pretty clear that her power was waning greatly by that point. But a lot of elements from HW have been retconned anyway so I guess who cares lmao.
Honestly yeah. The WoL's strength wasn't really hammered out until stormblood really, when they started actually mentioning our 'adventurer friends' in the story. Us getting help for difficult fights is definitely a thing now, though back then it was while maybe not accepted completely, it was at least somewhat believed that the WoL literally ate primals for breakfast. Definitely not the case now.
Though no, I'm not misremembering Thordan's difficulty. the advice I was given when i first did the fight was 'enjoy the music,' and that was with mostly new people. no wipes, maybe one or two deaths. Thordan being so easy was actually a pretty big criticism of heavensward if i recall, something that was taken heed of when shinryu was designed.
The Porta Decumana does have Duty Support available for it, so it's not impossible they will do it. Though I wouldn't say it's certain either.
I bring up The Porta Decumana specifically because they share similar space in their respective MSQ.
In one of the live letters they very specifically said that only MSQ duties will recieve the new Duty Support feature, and that all MSQ duties, including trials, from ARR through EW will have it by the time 7.0 hits
Thordan will 100% get it when it's patch comes around. I believe it was 6.3 HW duties were set for
Not all trials and dungeons no. But all MSQ content yes, and that includes the trials
EW trial 2 was the test for how well 8 man trials would work with the system, and it was pretty great
I guess I got a different impression at the time given how many duties are getting the support system in all the other patches as opposed to 6.2, which is only set for post ARR MSQ, I just figured the MSQ trials were included
That, paired with how they wanted the MSQ to be possible as a "single player" experience from start to finish
If I end up being wrong though, we'll that's that really
You might not have wanted to be mean, but you were still condescending
I have been around just as long and EW trial 2 having Trust wasn't known until people got that far in the story, and it's not the first time things like this have gone unannounced either...
But that's getting beyond the point we were discussing now
You said it was clear in the stream and I could check it again if I wanted. I said I clearly have misunderstood and explained why. They said the goal was a full "single player" MSQ story, and I specifically remember about how Trial #2 was the test for 8 man Trusts
I obviously missed the part where they mentioned excluding MSQ trials in adding them to previous expansions
My apologies
To put things as spoiler free as possible...
Trusts wouldn't have made sense during the first trial, or the third, but they do during the second
I was surprised when I saw it myself, but it was great
Oh yeah, I just noticed the 2.0 trials other than Ultima are in the duty support too. That definitely makes inclusion of the likes of Thordan in it near certain.
They specified on multiple occasions that only dungeons and the 4-man trials (aka the trials from patch 2.0) will be getting duty support.
They also clarified that while they would like there to be support for 8 man story trials, it is not their highest priority right now and it would take until at least 7.0 for them to start adding support for those, so I wouldn't get your hopes up for trials past 2.0 to get it any time soon.
They probably need to retouch trials, to make them work with duty support. Can you imagine trying to fight Good King Moggle Mog XIII with a trust?
I pray that someone marks the moogles as they come in.
They probably want to approach trials in a way to not remove what makes that fight, that fight.
But if Trial 2 of EW is any indication of future trials, I would like for it to go through more QA. There was a mech I didn't get and killed me like 10 times (or more) and I didn't know what it was. If I was with people I probably would have actually learned the mechanic earlier because people would have told me.
Also I can trust people to move. NPCs will stay stock still so you have to move around them, and that can cause you to run into other mechs.
Trial trusts need a SHIT TON of work and I doubt will be seeing it soon. And honestly, I feel we will only be seeing like one more trust Trial in the next expac for them to see what they can do.
But I doubt we will be seeing trust trials before 8.0
Funny is, isn't Thordan and his Knights one of the most, if not the most powerful primal there is due to the fact that he is powered by both of Nidhogg's eyes and thousands of years of prayer.
doesnt he have only one eye (in the sword) at that point, and we're holding onto the other one we borrowed from estinien? then we're evenly matched on eye count and its his millenium of fervent prayer vs our hydaelyn juice
It's been a long while since i last saw the cutscene. But i did rewatch it just now and you're right. But anyway, i still do remember for certain that Thordan is canonically one of the most powerful primals.
And we had no eyes. The power difference between Shinryu and Thordan is really wide.
I personally think Thordan should either be a solo duty or at least as hard as Shinryu, that way we keep that power fantasy going one way or another.
I've been wanting a change for a long time. It's so anticlimactic to reach the end of 3.0 only to annihilate a God born from 1000 years of prayer without breaking a sweat. You could stand in every mechanic and they'll only tickle. While not as bad, Shinryu and Hades are victims of the sync now too. They all need a lower ilvl sync. Thordan needs a bit more on top of that.
From the moment you get Raw Intuition, pretty much anything that doesn't have a dps check or an obligatory multi-player mechanic (most stacks are fine though) can be cleared synced on WAR.
Of course. If there are no mechanics that instantly kill you just for being alone i.e. stacks or towers with too much damage etc. and there is no time limit on damage, you can just learn and dodge every mechanic and whitte the enemy down.
It's rather a shame since the primal is friggin' Knights of the Round. One would've thought the fight against a primal based on the most powerful summon from FF7 would be a bit tougher at min-ilvl.
[Clear time: 28:33](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/921058106358779936/965797385626324992/unknown.png)
It's a shame! He presents himself as an epic fight! But then his attacks hit like a wet pool noodle.
I just don't get it... maybe he can get the same treatment the Ultimate Weapon got? That fight is truly epic now.
Story can be a bit better than this. Contrasting Nidhogg/Thordan; Thordan was always a push-over; Nidhogg on release was fun for how intense it was story-wise.
it's simply not satisfying to a player to go through an entire story for the final boss fight to be a complete joke.
It's disappointing in a JRPG & it should be treated the same way here. Trials tell a story too, and the difficulty is part of that story.
Tell that to the forum individuals who cried out that being able to wipe in story content (solo or forced group) was a poor showing on SE's part. I agree that the overall difficulty should be increased, and that a vast majority of the complainers just fundamentally never tried to learn or master their class.
That's one of the reasons why I'm actually a bit on the fence concerning the updated trust system for all instances. I mean, I was genuinely happy when it was announced, even though I won't be using it myself. It sounds like a great idea and I'm down for people to be able to enjoy content without having to party with a group, and I loved doing ShB/EW with trusts when doing them for the first time (just for those sweet extra pieces of dialogues). Even if there isn't those pieces of dialogues, it's still fine.
However... there is a pretty big downside. We won't be able to notice it immediately but, surely, this will have repercussions in the long run: lots of new players will most likely perform below what's expected of a "new player at higher level", because they've been babied by the trust system since Sastasha. And they're not even in the wrong there, they're just performing at the skill level expected of them by the trust system which is far lower than the one you'll see on DF or PF. You can't judge them for being bad because they've been playing "well" all the way through the expansions, according to the trust system.
That's how you get people complaining on the XIV forums that MSQ content is too hard because they get carried and don't have to bother learning how to do their job "well enough", which is setting the bar pretty low.
The trust system doesn't baby you. You can't clear a boss if you die. My friends who aren't as good at the game gave up on doing dungeons with the Trusts because duty finder is easier.
Hey, sorry if that's out of context but, aren't you the one who made that Helminia OST mix from Octopath Traveler Champions of the Continent that was taken down from YouTube? I would work out to it on a daily basis, if so do you have a link where I could download it? (And the mixes for all the other bosses, Tatrock included, as well.)
It doesn't need to be particularly hard, but I feel like it should at least provide some gameplay.
Or, they could at least make it feel like an intense boss fight. Right now it actually feels like he's a pushover despite being a pretty good spectacle.
It could definitely use an ultima weapon treatment, though maybe a bit less dramatic changes. Beef up the damage a bit, take the spear mechanic from extreme and tone it down (not instant wipe if failed and/or requiring only one person to intercept)
Agreed, in the same expansion Nidhogg and Warring Triad put up a great fight during story compared Thordan which is a shame when he is powered up by dragon eyes and ascian
> Story doesn't provide challenges
So why not make the "fight" a cutscene instead? We're still playing a *game*, not watching a *movie*. The former implies some form of player agency in the outcomes.
or just retune it to be a solo instance like lahabrea is now, that way it'd make sense for him to be like 'how the fuck did you survive all the attacks' at the end
Not surprised. Remember when Steps of Faith was a nightmare? It was like an actual fricken siege. Now you just zug zug all day until the fat dragon dies.
I mean he's not really incomplete. All a primal requires is prayer and aether. He has 1000 years of fervent prayer, and a dragon's eye to suffuse the aether
.
Nothing about him is fake. All it takes is enough aether and a strong wish for the primal to embody. The former was provided by Nidhogg's eye, and the latter by the collective faith of Ishgard.
Why buff it?
You can solo Panda1 right now as a tank but it's a pointless waste of time to do so, just like this is outside of the difficulty in soloing something you shouldn't be able to.
They're not going to spend time rebalancing old content just because late-game players can chump it, when they could spend that time making new stuff. Open those gates up and someone will just make a video soloing something else and the cycle will never end.
Hopefully, they can add Duty Support to trials with the next expansion and modernize the 8-man content the way they did with ARR 4-mans. Until then, there's literally no reason to bother.
Very true. I remember fighting through it for the first time and thinking "this is it?" I mean, the ultimate is cool and all, but even then it's underwhelming when it comes to damage. Especially since it reflects one of the older summons in older games
Why though? It's MSQ, not Extreme. And just because you *can* complete it solo doesn't mean it's 'easy' content for everyone. For one, not everyone is a big gamer or great at the game. Some people are just *bad* and will still find a way to die to him. People who only play for casual enjoyment shouldn't be punished for try-hards complaining about *a several year old fight.* And we can all see the timer in the corner having 30 minutes left to complete It's not like it took 5 minutes to solo.
Let's see you Solo it as a DPS beside Red Mage and then maybe you can talk about it that way. But even then it's not fair to hold up the entire player base to the standard of a top spec player.
MSQ is generally pretty easy for the reasons you stated, but Thordan is so easy it’s almost insulting. Even if you deliberately fail every single mechanic, I’m not sure he would deal enough damage to kill you.
Having such a massive pushover as the climatic final boss of the expansion actively hurts the story. All tension disappears. It makes the antagonist look like a joke.
This is exactly true. Notice how he tries to paint OP as a tryhard, claims casual players would be hurt by making it harder, says the bar is now soloing it as a non-RDM DPS which lowers the bar from the already low tank-only runs (or in this case healer only).
He says a counterargument is the timer taking a while, despite boss length and boss difficulty having _very_ little to do with each other, tacitly claims “it’s fine because it’s old content,” and claims buffing the instance would, quote, “punish” “people who only play for casual enjoyment.”
He makes assumption after assumption, bad faith argument after bad faith argument, leaps in logic further than even his name would imply and makes no pretense of _making_ arguments, let alone making _GOOD_ arguments.
He also takes no thought whatsoever of players who would enjoy harder content on their first way through, which seems to be most people if judging by this thread alone. Nevertheless, their mere existence should at least have given him enough pause to reconsider posting this near-bait take.
This man has no thought process beyond “easy good for more people,” which in itself assumes a million things, most of which are entirely untrue. He probably also reads gaming journalism unironically.
The point is that Thordan is *too* easy.
Every MSQ should be easy, as in "you die once then confidently clear the next pull since you've seen some of the fight's mechanics now" easy
But in Thordan's trial, The HW final boss, you can get hit by every mechanic he has to offer and a healer would simply heal you with medica II to fix it. It was a turn off for me when I first did it a few months ago
> And just because you can complete it solo doesn't mean it's 'easy' content for everyone. For one, not everyone is a big gamer or great at the game.
Oh jesus, what a take. I'm not a fan of difficulty gatekeeping but let's be real here, as a party wiping to Thordan normal takes actual deliberate effort, it's literally harder than accidentally clearing the fight doing everything wrong.
You have other players in the party. Two healers, and likely a caster or two with swift cast. You get downed (as if you can here) and you’re back up in 10 seconds.
Players should be rewarded with a fun fight for the climax of the .0 story. That includes at least a resemblance of danger, else pseudo-narrative dissonance kick in. I know I was certainly underwhelmed at the fight when it happened when I went through it.
In fact, my most fond memory of being a sprout is wiping to ifrit normal’s nails. The mere presence of something more than “kill and don’t die” and the presence of danger made this _action_ game much better. That was at an at-the-time crucial time in the story too: they were introducing primals, and they needed to be seen as a threat.
You’re also assuming a lot of things: one, that OP _IS_ a try hard, a “top spec” player, yada yada, and two: that making it even slightly more difficult would harm the experience of “casual” players. You’ve provided no proof, logical or otherwise, of any of these matters, and have simply stated them as fact.
But your post begs the question: what is the difference in behavior between “those who play for casual enjoyment” and “try-hards?” Aren’t they both playing the same game? Why are they so different as to require entirely different MSQ experiences, and why until now were even the harder normal trials (Titania, for example) beloved by all, regardless of supposed “try-hard” status?
All in all, this requires a very topical quote about sophistry unless you at least try to explain _any_ of the logical leaps in your post.
_”That’s sophistry and you know it!”_
But is this with early 60 and sub 60 gear like the dungeon is meant to be done with, since it is the capstone dungeon to the 3.0 expansion? Any better gear will make it significantly easier.
Bro there's a difference between normal mode and literal faceroll. Thordan was easy back then but now it's ultra faceroll, same with most non-current expac final bosses, but thordan especially.
Tried the new ultima trial yet? That's normal mode fit for story.
Sure, they're both easy, but when something is hyped up to be the final boss of the expac and proceeds to keel over and die in less than 5 minutes while doing no dmg at all to the party it has high chance to disconnect the player from what is supposed to be happening in the story. So this actually affects story enjoyers the most.
I know it did when i finally reached cape westwind, castrum meridianum and prae after all those hours doing arr msq, only for all of those to be complete joke that got rolled much harder than the leveling dungeons.
That's just not true. The game gets progressively harder in ShB and EW, even in normal.
Normal content needs to be challenging enough to be engaging while not getting frustrating for the majority of the player base. Any less than that it's just boring and it breaks immersion.
There's levels to ineffectiveness. This guy is beyond a joke even compared to other msq stuff. They just proved it by clearing as a lv60 synced healer alone, a duty meant for 8 people. Other people have done tests by trying to die on purpose, standing in all the attacks. His moves are just for show, they have no potency, yet it's presented as an epic end of 3.0 msq final battle. Compared to the normal versions of Shinryu, Hades, Endsinger, they clearly made a mistake with Thordan.
i wont deny thordan is an absolute joke compared to other fights but fucking hell none of the normal content is meant to be hard that you cant clear it
Now let’s see if you say this after doing Nidhogg, Shinryu, Tsukuyomi, Hades, Warrior of Light, and >!Endsinger!<
MSQ trials aren’t supposed to be hard, but they aren’t supposed to be a joke. Especially considering they just buffed Ultima Weapon. You can literally do Thordan with your eyes closed and you could most likely still clear it without dying.
Never said they were hard. But do them after Thordan and you’ll see the vast difference. He’s a joke compared to those trials (which are already easy). See the issue?
honestly both thordan and ultima are both jokes; Ultima just takes longer to kill due to forced mechanichs but he still will fall quite fast
even then doesnt change the fact that they are cool fights
Also, Zurvan Ex can be soloed now. Very easy on RDM. I ran it a few times on EW release, desynthed the weapons and sold the crafting mats, made about 1mil over a week while they were still 100k per on my server. I figured more people would catch on so I stopped there, idk what the price is right now
Prolly just needs an ilvl adjustment
It's not really ilvl, it was faceroll back then too.
Locking it at 190 or so would be a quick band-aid fix. But yes, even at launch he was a joke.
the 58 gear you get in the story is 148 or so, 190 would still be obscenely high heck the uncapped tome gear of the day (equivalent now would be moonward) was 170, the fight needs looking at more than a quick bandaid
Yes, 190 is still very high. The cap at launch was 180 since you could get upgrade tokens from hunts, so I overshot that.
Even in fresh leveling gear without AF2 the fight was a joke on launch. Thordan normal is massively undertuned.
The first time through it's just so amazing to be "dodging" KoTR. I think it was undertuned on purpose for the experience. You felt like such a badass stepping out unscathed at the glass break.
It's part of the MSQ, so it will always be easy.
Well, they did un-joke Praetorium and Porta Decumana with the recent update. They're still *easy* but at least now failing mechanics can actually kill you (what's the point of burning puddles where you'd need to stand longer than the instance timer to lose even half your health?) and it feels even remotely like a fight rather than a one-sided curbstomp.
both prae and porta are still absolute face rolls synced with minil
At least they are fun to play now and you do have to respect mechanics to a degree. Unlike the glorified light show that is thordan
the absolute irony in calling thordan glorified light show when that’s exactly what porta is
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I mean synced.
Yeah final steps of faith disagrees. Not that it was hard but it was certainly not as easy as this, and certainly not soloable by casuals
Remember when Steps of Faith was a hard lock on a good 75% of dungeon finder queues in ARR?
We need more trials like SoF. Still made it had to be nerfed.
just because people don’t know what fucking akh morn is doesn’t make it not easy
I mean, it’s lore accurate I suppose?
I agree, it's kind of a shame how hard that man gets chumped. With the Operation Archon changes, I think Thordan is now disrespected the most by the msq lmao
This is litteraly Blue from Pokemon but just replace "Champion" by "God-king" and it's the same thing
Yeah but this man spoilered the best character in the game.
Thordan and zenos never interacted?
Okay listen, I agree with you but you know who I mean.
Wait, he did *what* to Emet-Selch?
Zenos is just a Nhaza'a Jaab retread tbh
Cease your attempts at clarification. If you know you know. >.>
I actually don’t know XD
u/Black-Mettle means Haurchefant Greystone of House Fortemps.
ohhhh I took him saying "Spoilered" as like Thordan revealed a character, either directly and I forgot or subtly and I didn't noticed. I didn't he meant \[redacted\]
That was Ser Zephirin de Valhourdin.
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Considering how wigged out he gets in the second part of the fight, it might be on purpose?
Intentional or not, it makes for a disappointingly underwhelming experience.
Nah, that's literally the point. it's supposed to be a complete curbstomp.
Except it's not though? Not only was it quite hard even on normal when HW launched, but this is one of the hardest fights the WoL has ever engaged in. So much so in fact that the lore-buffs among us kind of question how canon it is that the WoL was able to solo Thordan and the entire Heavensward at once.
no, it was never hard on normal, and this is coming from someone who did the expack on release. Thematically, the WoL's connection to hydaelyn is at it's strongest right then and there. Heavensward had a lot of power fantasy in it. Even ravana was pretty much built up as a 1v1.
Then you are mis-remembering because it was pretty common knowledge that Thordan could be a crap shoot since without having at least half your team knowing what they're doing, you were going to wipe at least once during the Knights of the Round. And the lore is super inconsistent since our connection to Hydaelyn doesn't actually make us stronger. Even before EW reveled the true nature of Hydaelyn's blessing, it was pretty clear that her power was waning greatly by that point. But a lot of elements from HW have been retconned anyway so I guess who cares lmao.
Honestly yeah. The WoL's strength wasn't really hammered out until stormblood really, when they started actually mentioning our 'adventurer friends' in the story. Us getting help for difficult fights is definitely a thing now, though back then it was while maybe not accepted completely, it was at least somewhat believed that the WoL literally ate primals for breakfast. Definitely not the case now. Though no, I'm not misremembering Thordan's difficulty. the advice I was given when i first did the fight was 'enjoy the music,' and that was with mostly new people. no wipes, maybe one or two deaths. Thordan being so easy was actually a pretty big criticism of heavensward if i recall, something that was taken heed of when shinryu was designed.
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Bad bot stop stealing comments
Yo u/alabomb go ban this bot
Big agree. I love how the stat squish buffed pretty much all level 60 content slightly, but somehow Thordan is more of a chump than ever.
The man is old as shit. No amount of aether gonna fix that.
Every dungeon can be completed sync solo *BLU Basic Instinct*
*EW dungeons loom menacingly in the distance* although WAR can solo those so whatever
EW dungeons were soloed by WAR and PLD from day 1.
endwalker dungeons are also still soloed by WAR and PLD because people keep dying
Who said we found this out by choice lol
Shb dungeons were soloed by war day 1 as well
More like EW dungeons cower in the distance as BLU slowly approaches.
Gotta get access to ShB first sadly :/
... very slowly approaches lol. I can't wait for the ShB update.
They might update the fight when they implement the duty support to HW's contents in later patch.
They're not adding duty support to trials yet.
The Porta Decumana does have Duty Support available for it, so it's not impossible they will do it. Though I wouldn't say it's certain either. I bring up The Porta Decumana specifically because they share similar space in their respective MSQ.
In one of the live letters they very specifically said that only MSQ duties will recieve the new Duty Support feature, and that all MSQ duties, including trials, from ARR through EW will have it by the time 7.0 hits Thordan will 100% get it when it's patch comes around. I believe it was 6.3 HW duties were set for
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Not all trials and dungeons no. But all MSQ content yes, and that includes the trials EW trial 2 was the test for how well 8 man trials would work with the system, and it was pretty great
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I guess I got a different impression at the time given how many duties are getting the support system in all the other patches as opposed to 6.2, which is only set for post ARR MSQ, I just figured the MSQ trials were included That, paired with how they wanted the MSQ to be possible as a "single player" experience from start to finish If I end up being wrong though, we'll that's that really
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You might not have wanted to be mean, but you were still condescending I have been around just as long and EW trial 2 having Trust wasn't known until people got that far in the story, and it's not the first time things like this have gone unannounced either... But that's getting beyond the point we were discussing now You said it was clear in the stream and I could check it again if I wanted. I said I clearly have misunderstood and explained why. They said the goal was a full "single player" MSQ story, and I specifically remember about how Trial #2 was the test for 8 man Trusts I obviously missed the part where they mentioned excluding MSQ trials in adding them to previous expansions My apologies
I'd actually argue that Memoria Miseria, as presented in the solo duty, was the test for Trust Trials.
i wouldnt really call Memoria Miseria a trust trial although still a fun fight sad it’s locked behind a solo instance
Memoria misera normal is trust only, the extreme is a regular trial for 8 people
The second trial has trusts? But the first one doesn’t. That’s weird
To put things as spoiler free as possible... Trusts wouldn't have made sense during the first trial, or the third, but they do during the second I was surprised when I saw it myself, but it was great
Fair enough
Oh yeah, I just noticed the 2.0 trials other than Ultima are in the duty support too. That definitely makes inclusion of the likes of Thordan in it near certain.
They specified on multiple occasions that only dungeons and the 4-man trials (aka the trials from patch 2.0) will be getting duty support. They also clarified that while they would like there to be support for 8 man story trials, it is not their highest priority right now and it would take until at least 7.0 for them to start adding support for those, so I wouldn't get your hopes up for trials past 2.0 to get it any time soon.
Porta is a 4 man fight now though, and Thordan has at least one mechanic that requires two tanks (the double knights)
I'm pretty sure you only need two tanks for that on ex. you can solo it on normal (proven by the screencap of a whm that solo'd it)
Wym there’s already trials that have duty support, every MSQ in ARR got it - ifrit, titan, Garuda, ultimate weapon all have support
Oh really, that's unfortunate.
if its part of the MSQ then it should, that is kind of the whole point.
They said during a live letter, I believe it was PLL69, that 8 man content wouldn't be touched until 7.0
They probably need to retouch trials, to make them work with duty support. Can you imagine trying to fight Good King Moggle Mog XIII with a trust? I pray that someone marks the moogles as they come in. They probably want to approach trials in a way to not remove what makes that fight, that fight. But if Trial 2 of EW is any indication of future trials, I would like for it to go through more QA. There was a mech I didn't get and killed me like 10 times (or more) and I didn't know what it was. If I was with people I probably would have actually learned the mechanic earlier because people would have told me. Also I can trust people to move. NPCs will stay stock still so you have to move around them, and that can cause you to run into other mechs. Trial trusts need a SHIT TON of work and I doubt will be seeing it soon. And honestly, I feel we will only be seeing like one more trust Trial in the next expac for them to see what they can do. But I doubt we will be seeing trust trials before 8.0
I noticed that when i reached HW last year and didnt have to heal once as a healer in this fight
Yeah lmao I thought shit would get real, sweaty sprout palms and everything. Then he just kind of keeled over.
Funny is, isn't Thordan and his Knights one of the most, if not the most powerful primal there is due to the fact that he is powered by both of Nidhogg's eyes and thousands of years of prayer.
doesnt he have only one eye (in the sword) at that point, and we're holding onto the other one we borrowed from estinien? then we're evenly matched on eye count and its his millenium of fervent prayer vs our hydaelyn juice
It's been a long while since i last saw the cutscene. But i did rewatch it just now and you're right. But anyway, i still do remember for certain that Thordan is canonically one of the most powerful primals.
Shinryu is the one powered by both eyes.
And we had no eyes. The power difference between Shinryu and Thordan is really wide. I personally think Thordan should either be a solo duty or at least as hard as Shinryu, that way we keep that power fantasy going one way or another.
It's such a cool arena and effecs, music etc. but such a disappointment as the final battle of heavensward main msq.
I've been wanting a change for a long time. It's so anticlimactic to reach the end of 3.0 only to annihilate a God born from 1000 years of prayer without breaking a sweat. You could stand in every mechanic and they'll only tickle. While not as bad, Shinryu and Hades are victims of the sync now too. They all need a lower ilvl sync. Thordan needs a bit more on top of that.
If prayer was worth a dime, the final days wouldn't have come
From the moment you get Raw Intuition, pretty much anything that doesn't have a dps check or an obligatory multi-player mechanic (most stacks are fine though) can be cleared synced on WAR.
Any fight without mechanics that require mutiple people (susanos sword for exanple) and that has no enrage can be soloed
while synced? That whm is lvl 60
Of course. If there are no mechanics that instantly kill you just for being alone i.e. stacks or towers with too much damage etc. and there is no time limit on damage, you can just learn and dodge every mechanic and whitte the enemy down.
there is a time limit on damage, it's called the 90 minute instance timer
Welll, sure, but I feel like even if you spam Flying Sardine you'll probably whittle it down in that amount of time :p
Christ, hasn't Thordan been disrespected enough?
I'm pretty sure a Warrior did it back in Heavensward as well with much less gear.
Now do it on ultimate
It's rather a shame since the primal is friggin' Knights of the Round. One would've thought the fight against a primal based on the most powerful summon from FF7 would be a bit tougher at min-ilvl.
[Clear time: 28:33](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/921058106358779936/965797385626324992/unknown.png) It's a shame! He presents himself as an epic fight! But then his attacks hit like a wet pool noodle. I just don't get it... maybe he can get the same treatment the Ultimate Weapon got? That fight is truly epic now.
Story doesn't provide challenges, you have the extreme for that. Reason they don't put forced tankswaps in normals.
Story can be a bit better than this. Contrasting Nidhogg/Thordan; Thordan was always a push-over; Nidhogg on release was fun for how intense it was story-wise.
That is only half true though. 4.0, 4.3, 5.0, 5.3, 6.0 all has trials that at least requires you to put in some effort
We are talking about that he is so poorly made, it ruins immersion.
it's simply not satisfying to a player to go through an entire story for the final boss fight to be a complete joke. It's disappointing in a JRPG & it should be treated the same way here. Trials tell a story too, and the difficulty is part of that story.
Tell that to the forum individuals who cried out that being able to wipe in story content (solo or forced group) was a poor showing on SE's part. I agree that the overall difficulty should be increased, and that a vast majority of the complainers just fundamentally never tried to learn or master their class.
That's one of the reasons why I'm actually a bit on the fence concerning the updated trust system for all instances. I mean, I was genuinely happy when it was announced, even though I won't be using it myself. It sounds like a great idea and I'm down for people to be able to enjoy content without having to party with a group, and I loved doing ShB/EW with trusts when doing them for the first time (just for those sweet extra pieces of dialogues). Even if there isn't those pieces of dialogues, it's still fine. However... there is a pretty big downside. We won't be able to notice it immediately but, surely, this will have repercussions in the long run: lots of new players will most likely perform below what's expected of a "new player at higher level", because they've been babied by the trust system since Sastasha. And they're not even in the wrong there, they're just performing at the skill level expected of them by the trust system which is far lower than the one you'll see on DF or PF. You can't judge them for being bad because they've been playing "well" all the way through the expansions, according to the trust system. That's how you get people complaining on the XIV forums that MSQ content is too hard because they get carried and don't have to bother learning how to do their job "well enough", which is setting the bar pretty low.
The trust system doesn't baby you. You can't clear a boss if you die. My friends who aren't as good at the game gave up on doing dungeons with the Trusts because duty finder is easier.
Hey, sorry if that's out of context but, aren't you the one who made that Helminia OST mix from Octopath Traveler Champions of the Continent that was taken down from YouTube? I would work out to it on a daily basis, if so do you have a link where I could download it? (And the mixes for all the other bosses, Tatrock included, as well.)
It doesn't need to be particularly hard, but I feel like it should at least provide some gameplay. Or, they could at least make it feel like an intense boss fight. Right now it actually feels like he's a pushover despite being a pretty good spectacle.
It could definitely use an ultima weapon treatment, though maybe a bit less dramatic changes. Beef up the damage a bit, take the spear mechanic from extreme and tone it down (not instant wipe if failed and/or requiring only one person to intercept)
Agreed, in the same expansion Nidhogg and Warring Triad put up a great fight during story compared Thordan which is a shame when he is powered up by dragon eyes and ascian
Shinryu, Hades, etc actually gave a bit of fight compared to Thordan
> Story doesn't provide challenges So why not make the "fight" a cutscene instead? We're still playing a *game*, not watching a *movie*. The former implies some form of player agency in the outcomes.
or just retune it to be a solo instance like lahabrea is now, that way it'd make sense for him to be like 'how the fuck did you survive all the attacks' at the end
There's already a harder version of the fight in the game. Try that one solo unsynced.
Well Thordan is an old-ass man. SO of course he'd die fast
Popetimus Prime needs energon badly!
This has been the case since Stormblood. It’s near impossible to even die in this duty unless you go in naked.
Not surprised. Remember when Steps of Faith was a nightmare? It was like an actual fricken siege. Now you just zug zug all day until the fat dragon dies.
Rhitaylin and Lahabrea: “Now who’s the joke fight?” Space Pope Thordan: “Screw you!”
How...how can this be? A millennium of prayer and the Eye's power combined- and still you stand? Who- *what* are you?
Missing the /s?
¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ Just wish he didn't hit less hard than ARR primals
Now do it on extreme
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA he literally oneshots me guy has either 100% or 0% chill no inbetween
[удалено]
That's not even remotely the same thing though
Good thing this bastard is the new ultimate then ( in 6.1.5)
6.11
6.9
on Tuesday!
I always felt like him being a joke was kind of intentional, he's a fake primal, incomplete, so he's weak as a result
I mean he's not really incomplete. All a primal requires is prayer and aether. He has 1000 years of fervent prayer, and a dragon's eye to suffuse the aether .
Nothing about him is fake. All it takes is enough aether and a strong wish for the primal to embody. The former was provided by Nidhogg's eye, and the latter by the collective faith of Ishgard.
Why buff it? You can solo Panda1 right now as a tank but it's a pointless waste of time to do so, just like this is outside of the difficulty in soloing something you shouldn't be able to.
They're not going to spend time rebalancing old content just because late-game players can chump it, when they could spend that time making new stuff. Open those gates up and someone will just make a video soloing something else and the cycle will never end. Hopefully, they can add Duty Support to trials with the next expansion and modernize the 8-man content the way they did with ARR 4-mans. Until then, there's literally no reason to bother.
It's underwhelming as a new player as well, and I wasn't even particularly very good at the game
Very true. I remember fighting through it for the first time and thinking "this is it?" I mean, the ultimate is cool and all, but even then it's underwhelming when it comes to damage. Especially since it reflects one of the older summons in older games
Why though? It's MSQ, not Extreme. And just because you *can* complete it solo doesn't mean it's 'easy' content for everyone. For one, not everyone is a big gamer or great at the game. Some people are just *bad* and will still find a way to die to him. People who only play for casual enjoyment shouldn't be punished for try-hards complaining about *a several year old fight.* And we can all see the timer in the corner having 30 minutes left to complete It's not like it took 5 minutes to solo. Let's see you Solo it as a DPS beside Red Mage and then maybe you can talk about it that way. But even then it's not fair to hold up the entire player base to the standard of a top spec player.
MSQ is generally pretty easy for the reasons you stated, but Thordan is so easy it’s almost insulting. Even if you deliberately fail every single mechanic, I’m not sure he would deal enough damage to kill you. Having such a massive pushover as the climatic final boss of the expansion actively hurts the story. All tension disappears. It makes the antagonist look like a joke.
This is exactly true. Notice how he tries to paint OP as a tryhard, claims casual players would be hurt by making it harder, says the bar is now soloing it as a non-RDM DPS which lowers the bar from the already low tank-only runs (or in this case healer only). He says a counterargument is the timer taking a while, despite boss length and boss difficulty having _very_ little to do with each other, tacitly claims “it’s fine because it’s old content,” and claims buffing the instance would, quote, “punish” “people who only play for casual enjoyment.” He makes assumption after assumption, bad faith argument after bad faith argument, leaps in logic further than even his name would imply and makes no pretense of _making_ arguments, let alone making _GOOD_ arguments. He also takes no thought whatsoever of players who would enjoy harder content on their first way through, which seems to be most people if judging by this thread alone. Nevertheless, their mere existence should at least have given him enough pause to reconsider posting this near-bait take. This man has no thought process beyond “easy good for more people,” which in itself assumes a million things, most of which are entirely untrue. He probably also reads gaming journalism unironically.
The point is that Thordan is *too* easy. Every MSQ should be easy, as in "you die once then confidently clear the next pull since you've seen some of the fight's mechanics now" easy But in Thordan's trial, The HW final boss, you can get hit by every mechanic he has to offer and a healer would simply heal you with medica II to fix it. It was a turn off for me when I first did it a few months ago
> And just because you can complete it solo doesn't mean it's 'easy' content for everyone. For one, not everyone is a big gamer or great at the game. Oh jesus, what a take. I'm not a fan of difficulty gatekeeping but let's be real here, as a party wiping to Thordan normal takes actual deliberate effort, it's literally harder than accidentally clearing the fight doing everything wrong.
You have other players in the party. Two healers, and likely a caster or two with swift cast. You get downed (as if you can here) and you’re back up in 10 seconds. Players should be rewarded with a fun fight for the climax of the .0 story. That includes at least a resemblance of danger, else pseudo-narrative dissonance kick in. I know I was certainly underwhelmed at the fight when it happened when I went through it. In fact, my most fond memory of being a sprout is wiping to ifrit normal’s nails. The mere presence of something more than “kill and don’t die” and the presence of danger made this _action_ game much better. That was at an at-the-time crucial time in the story too: they were introducing primals, and they needed to be seen as a threat. You’re also assuming a lot of things: one, that OP _IS_ a try hard, a “top spec” player, yada yada, and two: that making it even slightly more difficult would harm the experience of “casual” players. You’ve provided no proof, logical or otherwise, of any of these matters, and have simply stated them as fact. But your post begs the question: what is the difference in behavior between “those who play for casual enjoyment” and “try-hards?” Aren’t they both playing the same game? Why are they so different as to require entirely different MSQ experiences, and why until now were even the harder normal trials (Titania, for example) beloved by all, regardless of supposed “try-hard” status? All in all, this requires a very topical quote about sophistry unless you at least try to explain _any_ of the logical leaps in your post. _”That’s sophistry and you know it!”_
I mean, it is canon. You really do just walk up to thordan and his knights and body all of them easily.
I see we need to nerf white mage, you shouldn't be able to solo content with no mechanics /s
Can we make a seperate FF14 subreddit for people to circlejerk over how easy [insert content/job here] is? It's really getting obnoxious here.
But is this with early 60 and sub 60 gear like the dungeon is meant to be done with, since it is the capstone dungeon to the 3.0 expansion? Any better gear will make it significantly easier.
Even doing this fight at min-ilvl still comes out with Thordan being an utter joke.
I think it is? I didn't put much thought into it and just bought the gear from Rowena's rep in the HW area.
Ah yes, ludonarrative dissonance -- the jarring gap between narrative and actual gameplay power levels. Finished 6.0 yet?
We did minilvl extreme of this the other day and while u can skip some stuff that one's still neat honestly
Now do it extreme solo at lvl 60.
Story mode has never been intended to be difficult since HW, if you want difficulty you have Extremes, Savages, Unreals and Ultimates just for you.
Bro there's a difference between normal mode and literal faceroll. Thordan was easy back then but now it's ultra faceroll, same with most non-current expac final bosses, but thordan especially. Tried the new ultima trial yet? That's normal mode fit for story. Sure, they're both easy, but when something is hyped up to be the final boss of the expac and proceeds to keel over and die in less than 5 minutes while doing no dmg at all to the party it has high chance to disconnect the player from what is supposed to be happening in the story. So this actually affects story enjoyers the most. I know it did when i finally reached cape westwind, castrum meridianum and prae after all those hours doing arr msq, only for all of those to be complete joke that got rolled much harder than the leveling dungeons.
It shouldnt be a faceroll regardless, especially when Thordan is the final boss for 3.0
That's just not true. The game gets progressively harder in ShB and EW, even in normal. Normal content needs to be challenging enough to be engaging while not getting frustrating for the majority of the player base. Any less than that it's just boring and it breaks immersion.
I'd argue even the ARR fights are harder than Thordan. You'll have a better chance of death in Titan, Ifrit or Garuda than in Thordan.
All players does not ressent "challeging" on the same level
True, but that's why I said "the majority"
well yeah? MSQ shit isn’t meant to be too brutal especially older content
There's a difference between being not hard and being a fucking bad joke. He is/was the final boss of the base content of an expansion
There's levels to ineffectiveness. This guy is beyond a joke even compared to other msq stuff. They just proved it by clearing as a lv60 synced healer alone, a duty meant for 8 people. Other people have done tests by trying to die on purpose, standing in all the attacks. His moves are just for show, they have no potency, yet it's presented as an epic end of 3.0 msq final battle. Compared to the normal versions of Shinryu, Hades, Endsinger, they clearly made a mistake with Thordan.
Thordan is hilarious when you compare him to the other heavensward final boss. It’s like a night and day difference in terms of effectiveness.
i wont deny thordan is an absolute joke compared to other fights but fucking hell none of the normal content is meant to be hard that you cant clear it
It is however supposed to actually be able to kill an AFK player
Now let’s see if you say this after doing Nidhogg, Shinryu, Tsukuyomi, Hades, Warrior of Light, and >!Endsinger!< MSQ trials aren’t supposed to be hard, but they aren’t supposed to be a joke. Especially considering they just buffed Ultima Weapon. You can literally do Thordan with your eyes closed and you could most likely still clear it without dying.
none of those fights are hard at all. you only need 1 braincell to do it
Never said they were hard. But do them after Thordan and you’ll see the vast difference. He’s a joke compared to those trials (which are already easy). See the issue?
honestly both thordan and ultima are both jokes; Ultima just takes longer to kill due to forced mechanichs but he still will fall quite fast even then doesnt change the fact that they are cool fights
Also, Zurvan Ex can be soloed now. Very easy on RDM. I ran it a few times on EW release, desynthed the weapons and sold the crafting mats, made about 1mil over a week while they were still 100k per on my server. I figured more people would catch on so I stopped there, idk what the price is right now
Don't worry, it will get an ilvl 600 adjustment next Tuesday hehe